Get your driver's license out right now. >> For what? >> Because I told you to. >> First of all, you had to suspect him of a crime to ask for his identity. You didn't hear. >> You have to. And you don't know. >> In this video, two men finish shopping and returns to their car when an offduty officer suddenly approaches and demands identification. The officer claims their behavior is suspicious because they bought a large amount of merchandise and returned to the parking lot. Under the Fourth Amendment, officers must have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred before detaining someone or demanding ID, raising the question of whether this stop had any lawful justification. >> He said, "I sure am." You got to have You got to have a reason to run your plate out. For what? >> Because I told you to. >> You haven't have a reason, sir. You didn't You didn't pull me over. But you didn't pull me over out or I'll hit for a backup and I'll call out the car. CALL YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE. >> CALL YOUR SUPERVISOR, SIR. >> Get your driver's license out right now. >> Call your supervisor. >> Call your supervisor cuz you call You're not pulling me over. >> Get your driver's license out right now. Show me ID. >> Call your supervisor. >> What do you need my ID for, sir? >> Well, because you you want to run your mouth to me. >> No, because you was looking at my license plate for what? Exactly. You don't have the right TO RUN THIS. >> I GOT MY RIGHTS TO DO ANYTHING I WANT TO DO. I'M a police officer. That doesn't mean I'll pull you over and I'll tow your car. >> You can't tow my car. >> You're not pulling me over. You're not pulling me over. >> Get your driver. >> Where's your badge number, sir? >> Right there it is. What's your name? >> Can you read it to me? >> Yeah. >> What's your name? >> Read your badge number and your name. >> Get your driver's license. >> Read your badge. I'm asking you. You can't lock me up. You can't lock me up. >> Control top 3315. >> We're asking you to call a supervisor, sir. Yeah. I'm I'm telling you, we're not getting a supervisor. >> We're not getting a supervisor. >> You see, he said >> driver's license out. >> So, he's not getting a supervisor. We requested a supervisor. >> I don't mind showing you my driver's license. But what is your reason that you're asking? >> Because >> why? >> Because you're acting suspicious. >> About what? You We was in there shopping. >> Simply purchasing items at a store does not meet the legal threshold for detention. Courts have repeatedly held that reasonable suspicion must be based on specific articulable facts indicating a crime, not a vague claim of suspicious behavior. >> I said, "Show me your driver's license." >> What is the What is the sus What is that sus uh suspicion? Sir, >> get your driver's license out. >> You can't You can't stay. >> Show me your driver's license. That's all I want to say. >> You're not explaining to me. You didn't pull me overain. >> You jumped out your car and asked me that I want >> investigation. >> What's the in what are you investigating? >> You just see me in there shopping. I paid I'm paying money. I paid for everything that I bought. >> Get your driver's license out, >> sir. Your driver's license. If you if you don't got no warrants or nothing, you're gone. I don't have no problem. >> What are What is the reason that you're stopping me? >> I'm not going to argue with you no more. >> I'm not arguing. I'm trying to understand. I'm going to take both of you out >> and I'm going to tow your car. >> Can you give me your name? >> Your failure your failure to identify. >> I'm not You have no reason. You you have no reason to pull me over. >> Told me your driver's license. >> You didn't even pull You're not even behind me. You jumped out the car and told me to stop. You >> stopped right here. >> We weren't in traffic, sir. We were pulling out of a parking spot. >> Or I'm going to tow your car. >> You're not going to tow anything car, sir. >> You're not going to tow a car. >> Step it up. >> Call 911. >> I am on my phone. >> Driver's license. >> He's Lawrence, too. I know. I know a couple of them. I'm not refusing anything. I just want to know your driver's license. >> First of all, you have to suspect him of a crime to ask for his identity. You didn't have to. And you don't know the law. >> Yeah, I do know the law. >> No, you don't know the law. Get your driver's license out. Make this easy. Just show me your driver's license and you can go. >> What's your name, officer? That's all I want cuz we're following your driver's license and you can go. >> We asked for a supervisor. You do not understand. >> I'm not going to get a supervisor. >> I'm asking for your name. >> Off duty employment. You're off duty. >> Exactly. Off duty employment. >> If you're off duty, then why are you stopping people? >> I'm stopping you because you're suspicious. Okay. Why are we suspicious? >> Well, what'd you come back around for? >> Because I want to know your >> No, you jumped out of the car on us because we looked at you. >> Because I don't know what you guys are doing. Now, show me your >> You don't know what we're doing. You just seen your driver's license. >> You don't Look, you see all these bags in the back of the car? We just came out of the store seeing you. So, you know what we're doing? >> Driver's license. Just show them to me and if your drivers like to check out, I'm I'm going let I'mma let it go. >> Oh, it's not going to be let go. >> I don't care what you threaten me. Are you threatening? >> It's not going to be let go. >> Are you going to threaten me? >> You're Are you Why you got your hand threaten the police officer? >> Why you got your hand on the window? I'm not scared of you. I'm not worried about you. I worried about you either. >> We ain't broke no laws. >> Get your driver's license out right now. >> We are not broke no laws. Sir, can you give me your name? >> Get your driver's license out. Can you identify yourself? >> Take your driver's license. >> Can you identify yourself? >> Your driver's license. >> Can you identify yourself, sir? >> You see who I am. You see my bag. >> The officer's justification shifts again, moving from suspicious shopping to perceived disrespect. However, verbal disagreement with an officer is protected under the First Amendment and does not create reasonable suspicion of a crime. >> What is your name? >> Injured driver. >> What is your name, sir? Control time 3315. >> What is your name, sir? That's all we asking you is your name. >> Ma'am, can you send uh officers to back me up at Nordstrom Rack on 82nd Street? Refusal to identify your >> negative. >> Refusing to identify yourself. >> Get your driver's license out. >> A civil servant. >> Off duty. >> Off duty. Pulling people over at Nordstrom Park. >> Ain't nobody pulled you over. You stopped. >> Well, if you ain't pull us over, you see no license. >> Stop. You jumped out and stopped. >> No, I said show me your driver's license. >> You jumped out and stopped. I said, "Show me your ID." >> He jumped out and stopped me. >> Argue with argue. >> Okay. We just had It's just one question. What was the reason for you jumping out on us? >> Suspicious behavior. >> What? Like what >> exactly? >> What was the suspicious behavior? Buying a buying a bunch of shoes at No. >> Coming back around to look at me. No, you jumped out the car. What are you going to do? You jumped out the car first. You jumped out the car first. That's why we came back. >> Driver's license out. That's the last time I'm going to tell you. >> Cuz you ain't got to do nothing. He can't even pull you over out there. He's not He can't pull you over. >> Get your driver's license. We're going to wait for backup, sir. >> Yeah, we authority over you or >> You don't have no authority over >> Not me. Not me. >> We're going to ask you. We want the other supervisor. >> Authority over me. Who's your supervisor? >> I don't have a supervisor, Al. >> Oh, you're you're you're a self-contracted civil servant. >> Is that what you're saying? >> I don't answer questions to you. We'll wait. >> You don't even answer what your name is, officer. >> Nope. >> You can't even tell us that. Nope. Are you really an officer of the law? >> Yep. Pro. >> We don't have any proof that you are. >> Well, >> because you have a shirt that says driver's license out. >> What is your proof that you're you're even legal to pull? Shut up. What is your Why don't you shut up? I'm not talking to you. >> What is your proof? I'm being calm. You don't have to yell and spit in the car. I do. >> Now you're spitting bodily fluids on us. >> Yeah. There you go. Better get your driver's license out. >> That's all right, officer. We're We're We're compliant. You have to suspect him of doing something suspicious behavior. >> I got these guys were inside there. They got a bunch of stuff and uh then they mouth to me as they were leaving. They tried to make sure I didn't get their license plate and then he didn't want to show me ID. >> Off officer Shman said they stole it. >> No, they didn't steal items. >> We bought a bunch of items. >> They bought a bunch of stuff. But when they were right here, I was trying to get their license plate. He hollers out the window, "You're not getting my plate." And he takes off. So I went to get him. Then he comes back and he stops here. So I asked him for driver's license. >> It's all on video. That's not what happened. >> What What inaction did he commit? >> Nothing at all, officer. >> It's suspicious behavior. I wanted an ID. >> Okay. What uh what was suspicious about it? because he was calling me out in my car. >> What did I call you, sir? I didn't call you anything. You >> I asked you I asked you what were you trying to get my license plate for. That's what I asked you. >> Well, >> and then I came back to really see what was going on. >> That's why we stopped in front of the store >> with my hazards on. And he jumped out. We have it on record. He jumped out and told me to stop >> and started asking us for ID and all this and that. >> He said we was looking suspicious of how you we was in the same store he was in. We were shopping. >> He just seen >> I'm a loyal customer here. >> Okay. >> I shop here all the time. >> The thing is he asked for my license for what reason? >> That's all we asked him, officer. That's all we asked him. What What infraction or what's crime do you suspect us of committing? And then we asked him for a supervisor. He said, "You're not getting a supervisor." >> Hang hang tight for me for just one second. >> Yes, sir. This is what he's saying. Now, now they were just rude. He said a threatening man. >> You're free to go. >> So, we didn't get your name. >> Whoever got your name. Officer. >> Yes, gentlemen. >> Officer. Okay. So, when we we first came in here, right? So, he comes here all the time. >> Sure. >> I'm his cousin. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, we came in here, he bought some things for his daughter. We bought a few pair of shoes. >> The girl at the counter knows him well. They had a nice conversation, but the whole time this guy is standing in there staring at us, right? >> Okay. And I don't want to be the first one to say he profiling us or whatever, whatever, you know, or whatever. But it is what it is. >> Sure. >> So I go back in there, I take the uh take the little carts back in there. I'm like, cuz this this uh security is really beaming on us for some reason. >> So I take the carts back in. And the girl, we had left one of the bags. So she's like, "I'm glad y'all came back cuz you left a bag." So we grabbed the bag. When I come out, we fire up a cigarette. We blowing everything up. And this dude is just staring at us. Then he pulls his notebook out. Mind you, he was in the store the whole time until we came out. >> Okay. >> So when we first got here, he had pulled up beside us. So we basically got here at the same time. >> So when we come out, he comes out. >> Sure. >> Gets in his car. Right. So once he gets in his car, I'm like, it's obvious that I said, "Cuz he's probably going to try to run your plate." >> Mhm. >> We ain't worried about him running the plate. But the point is, >> ain't nobody dumb, man. You got to have some type of reason for running the plate. You're >> not necessarily. We can we can run plates for any reason or no reason. What he does have to have is he have to have what's called reasonable suspicion in order to make a stop. He has to have some sort of reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed. Correct. >> And at that point, you know, that that's why I asked him >> what suspicion you have to stop him. >> And I heard you asking him that. And my thing was, you just seen us buying these items. And that's why when he was explaining to you, you was like, "Well, loss prevention said they stole some stuff." >> No, that's not what happened. You just seen us buy this stuff loaded in our car. What's What is making us suspicious? Then he said, >> that's why I asked him that question. >> When we asked him to identify himself, is he supposed to identify himself? >> We just asked him his name. What's your name, officer? He was like, I don't got to tell you my name and blah blah blah. Well, can we see your supervisor? >> He's he's supposed to identify himself as a law enforcement officer. So, I mean, he can say, "I'm with Marian County Sheriff's Department." Okay. >> Yeah. And then he said, then he said something about he's off duty something something. Yeah. I said >> I said cuz he can't even I don't cuz does he have the power to even pull people over on the street? We're still in >> If he's a Maring County Sheriff's Deputy, then >> Okay, that's cool. That's cool. But we're still in the parking lot. >> So, he's committed a traffic infraction. Yeah, >> we're still in the parking lot, man. >> You can still commit traffic infractions in a parking lot. But the question is what infraction was committed to justify a stop? >> As far as I'm concerned, there was no traffic infraction. So there's no there's no reason to stop the vehicle. >> So So can you give us his name? >> I don't know his name. >> He won't give us the name. >> So we won't file a complaint. >> Okay. >> And I know he's Lawrence and that's what I was like I know y'all ain't got time for this. >> Is he Lawrence or is he I don't know. >> He said Lawrence on Yeah, it said Lawrence Township something. >> So that that'll be something that you'll have to take up with Sheriff's Department. uh if that's the case cuz I honestly I don't know who he is. I've never seen him before. >> He was aggressive too, man. Like he was just like like when you was talking to him, you see how he was stumbling. He couldn't really explain why we're suspicious. >> Why are we suspicious? >> How can we get his his information? >> He won't give it to us. >> We can get it from the store maybe. >> I mean, you can I don't know if you can get it from the store. You can call Lawrence uh >> and just ask him who you had on this location, >> who was working at the Nordstrom rack at this time on this date. They might be able to give you that information. We definitely want to file a complaint. If you don't get his name, you can at least give a description of him. If I got him on video, you can say this officer, he looked like this. He was driving an unmarked vehicle at this location, this date, this time. They might be able to figure that out. >> Look at the car they gave him. That's how much they care about them. It's rust. >> Look at the car they give me. >> I got a hole in my fender about the size of my hand I can stick through from the rust going out there. That's a 2008 with 188,000 miles on it. >> I call her barely faithful. >> Yeah. So, >> well, we appreciate you being civil with us and and and trying to really figure out what really was going on because look, >> well, the only way for me to figure out what's going on is ask questions. I don't know what's going on. >> And I know y'all know I know IMPD I know y'all got bigger and better things to do than come up here for some some uh rogue security officer, man. But he just kind of he just like he made our experience so bad, man. And it was unnecessary and he just >> Okay. >> But I we just wanted to explain it to you. you know what what was going on because I know he he was he couldn't really articulate what he was trying to say. >> Yeah. As as far as as far as I know based upon what happened, I I don't think either of us have any reasonable suspicion to believe that there's a crime taking place. It says there's no reason for a traffic stop at this point. So there's no legal requirement for you to identify yourself to an officer at that point. So if you don't want to give him ID, then you know you don't have to give him ID at that. And that's and we tried to we tried to be calm and talk to him like that and he just I don't have to tell you anything. Leaning in the car, spitting all in the car. He's just I don't know if he's having a bad day. His wife left him. I don't know. >> Could be. I don't know. My guess is as good as mine. >> Hey man, I appreciate you. >> You guys are good to go. Appreciate it. >> This encounter highlights a key constitutional principle. Under the Fourth Amendment, officers must have reasonable suspicion of a specific crime before detaining someone or demanding ID. Here, the justification shifted from suspicious shopping to attitude to vague suspicion, offering no clear legal basis. Without a specific crime or violation, citizens generally aren't required to identify themselves, emphasizing the importance of knowing and protecting your rights.