Because a lot of times people will have warrants and they won't want to identify themselves so they don't go to jail. Not that I believe you have warrants, but that's what that usual theme follows. >> There's a reason for not identifying. >> Your logic is I'm reading a book in my car and therefore I have a warrant. >> It's considered obstruction. Failure to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer in legal course is their duty. >> And you're going to arrest me and take me to jail? Is that it? >> If you refuse to identify yourself while we're trying to do our jobs? Yes, sir. So you need to identify yourself. It doesn't have to be that complicated. We could have been wrong. We could have been on our way by now. >> This is a Quaker minister from New York parked at a Murphy's gas station in Athens, Georgia, reading a book to ride out a severe thunderstorm. Instead of a routine welfare check to ensure motorist safety, he is surrounded by Officer Williams and his colleagues who aggressively distort a simple storm refuge into a loitering investigation to compel identification. This is a textbook display of roadside overreach where an employes's baseless anxiety is weaponized by police to trample over the Fourth Amendment. >> I need your ID. Um, did I commit a crime? You're loitering. >> If I'm not Yes, you are. Been here for hours. I need your ID. >> Are you going to Central 28 out of New York? Lima Sierra Alpha 3012. >> Okay. It doesn't matter. You need to provide your ID. I need your >> I'll provide your ID. Yeah, I will. My phone for you loing. You've been here for hours. That's not normal behavior. >> It's not normal behavior. I need your ID. >> I believe the two we might be out with, but he's not wanted to identify himself right now. I'll keep you updated. >> I need your ID. for >> give me your ID and we're going to then you're going to be detained. >> You're going to arrest me >> potentially. Yes. I'm trying to provide you opportunity. >> I already explained to you why we're here. >> Provide your ID. >> Sir, I didn't do anything wrong. I don't >> provide your ID. >> I'm not required to provide. >> Yes, you are. When we're investigating a complaint, >> you're not. >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay. I'm going to get out the car. Okay. >> Mel's requesting the supervisor for heat of 41 out here, please. >> I still need your ID. You're going to provide an ID. I'm going to keep the door. Okay. I'm going to know who I'm talking to. >> I just want to let you know I'm not a threat to you guys. I have no weapons. >> Okay, great. >> I'm just reading a book in my car. >> Sir, we could have been we could have been dealt with this. If you want to talk to your sergeant, I'm I'm perfectly happy to wait. I'm not a threat to you guys. I didn't say you were. >> I'm not resisting arrest. >> The issue is not that we believe you're a threat. The issue is that we received a complaint that you've been out here for a long time. >> I just parked my car to read a book. >> I understand that. But >> there's a thunderstorm. >> I I'm aware of that. >> Safe to drive. Because of the nature of the complaint and we're out here, you need to provide us with identification so we know who we're talking to. >> You're being very reasonable right now. I'm trying to be reasonable as well. >> You're not. >> I I asked I asked >> Is there a reason do you have warrant or something? You have a arrest warrant out of somewhere else of another state of jurisdiction. I mean that's your vehicle. >> I'm waiting for your sergeant. >> That's fine. >> Okay. >> And when he tells you the same thing, then what are you going to do? I will comply once your sergeant comes here. >> Okay. >> And tells me. >> If all you need is for him to ask for the ID, then then >> I just want to know what the law is here. >> I've already told you guys a little confused. >> Huh? [clears throat] >> So, we're not confused. Like I said, given the nature of the >> There's nothing illegal about stopping my car to read a book. >> So, the issue is the fact that you have been here for hours. From what time? >> So, from what the I think somebody inside called, they wanted us to check on you. >> Okay, >> that's what we're attempting to do. >> What time did they call? >> They called maybe 20 minutes ago. We're just now getting here. >> They said that you've been here for hours. They wanted us to check on you. So, because they're wanting us to check on you, that's why we're speaking with you right now. >> I'm just trying to protect my constitutional rights. Okay. And I understand that, but us asking you to identify yourself isn't a violation of your constitutional rights. It's not because you're required to identify yourself while we're investigating the nature of the call. >> If you refuse to identify yourself, that is a criminal offense and you could go to jail for that. >> Sir, if I'm committing a crime, I'd be happy to give you my driver's license and my ID. >> So, the crime that you're committing right now is refusing to identify yourself? >> No, that's that's where the confusion is. That's not confusion. You're required to identify yourself when we're >> Look, this can be solved very quickly with your supervisor. >> And he's in route. >> Okay. [cough] I also perfectly have to move. If that's okay with you, >> then that's what we want the end goal to be. But the issue is that usually when people don't want to identify themselves is because of some underlying factor. >> That's not why. >> That's exactly why. Cuz a lot of times people will have warrants >> and they won't want to identify themselves so they don't go to jail. Not that I believe you have warrants, but that's what that usual theme follows. There's a reason for not identifying. >> Your logic is I'm reading a book in my car and therefore I have a warrant and therefore you need to check my ID. That doesn't make any sense. >> It doesn't make any sense cuz you're misconstruing the order of what I just explained things as. >> All right. I'm We're miscommunicating. You You're telling me stuff that doesn't make any sense. I'd like to talk to your supervisor >> and the supervisors in row. >> Okay. I need to get my phone. Okay. So, save my close my phone door. >> Uh, yeah, you can close. >> I'm not hiding anything. I >> I got you. You can close the door. I don't want anything to get wet. >> Okay. Is it okay if I put my jacket on? >> Where is your jacket? It's right here. >> Sure. >> I'm not hiding anything. >> I got you. Heat. Heat. owe. I'm done. Get out. Hold on. Let's not go reach it back into the vehicle. My supervisor just pulled up. >> I just got my glasses. I can't see anything. >> Sure. A good picture. Hey siren. >> Good morning sir. >> Good morning. >> Where how can I help you today? What's going on? >> Uh I don't need any help but I did stop my car. It was um thunderstorm. >> Mhm. >> It's not safe to drive. I was reading my book and then these officers came and knocked on my door >> and said I was trespassing. And I said I didn't think I was trespassing. I I can move on. >> Okay. >> We got a call here that the car has been sitting here for several hours and that's why we were called to come out and investigate. >> It's been here since there was a thunderstorm. >> Okay. >> Um I I was hoping to ride out the the rain. >> Okay. >> I didn't think I was committing a crime. >> Well, I understand that. And and if that's the case, that's the case. Like I said, we got a call to come out here and look into it and investigate because they said that the vehicle's been sitting here for several hours. From their perspective, that's suspicious, right? >> Okay. I'm not complaining about that. >> Okay. So, um I'm just curious cuz I noticed you have a New York slate. >> Yeah, I'm a rack. You So, are you from New York? >> Yes. >> Okay. A resident of New York? >> Yes. >> Okay. What brings you down to Georgia? >> Um visiting different houses of worship. >> Okay. Is there one here in Athens or are you passing through Athens? Um, this one I think it's at Cherokee uh Cherokee Corner Church. >> Cherokee Corner Church in Athens. Are you familiar with that? >> I know we have Cherokee Road and we have Cornerstone. >> I don't know about a Cherokee Corner. >> It says Arnoldsville, Georgia. >> Okay. So, you're a little ways out that way still. >> Actually, in Athens. >> Yes, sir. It's in another 20 minutes or so down the road then. Okay. What kind of church is that? >> Um, I'm going to a Quaker meeting. >> Okay. Okay. And you do a lot of the traveling around then. Are you like a higher up member of it or? >> Um, I'm traveling in the ministry. >> Okay. >> Um, just visiting different Quaker meetings. >> Understandable. Okay. So, again, from our perspective, just so you understand, right, we we don't just show up, we get a call. >> I'm not complaining about that. The only thing the only issue I had was that your officers kept insisting on me showing my ID. And I said, "I'll show you my ID if you're going to arrest me by committing a crime." And that's all that's where it stopped. >> Sure. So, what we're investigating right now is we're investigating the complaint of loitering. >> Okay. >> Right. And that's what we're investigating and that's why we're out here. So, we are investigating the complaint of a crime. We're not just out here because, >> right? And we need to determine what's going on. We need to talk to the people in the store and all that. Um, and just quite frankly like whether you're in trouble or not, right? As soon as someone says that they don't want to show us that they refuse to show us an ID, it's a red flag for us. >> Okay? >> Right. It shows us in a lot of cases, and I'm not saying it's you specifically, but a lot of people are trying to hide from something. >> And the easiest way to move on and clear it up is if you've got nothing to hide from, we run your name, it comes back clean, right? >> And and we all just move on. you go to church and and we leave the gas station and everyone's on their way to that. >> Okay? >> Right? And it's simple enough as that cuz otherwise the the loitering complaint then it only furthers our suspicion that that there's something weird going on and that there's a problem of some sort. >> Yeah. Right. So that's that's part of our investigation. >> I I tried to explain to officers that I only stopped because the rain had to move on. I was just reading my book when they knocked on the door. I wasn't doing anything illegal. Um, as far as I know, I I know you say that I'm trespassing, but I didn't realize I was trespassing. >> And we understood that, which is >> they do want to borrow >> why we tried to explain to you that the nature of our investigation was because you've been here. >> They want to bar you from the property. Okay, that's on them. That's their right to do. So, in order to do that at this point in time, it is a criminal trespass warning. Okay? It's not an arrest. However, it is something where we do need your ID so that we can fill out the paperwork and officially make it that you are barred from this property. Okay. So, at this point in time, because they want to do that, we are going to need your ID. Okay. I just need you to um fully understand what's going on. So, I I parked my car here during the rain. Um they called you. I don't know exactly when, but um when you guys arrived, um you asked my ID. I used to I didn't believe I uh did anything wrong. Um but now you went to the manager whoever this person is and they are asking for a bar. I just can't explain trespass warning. So what they're doing is they are barring you. They are trespassing you from the property which means if you return back here then you will be arrested for trespass. So and so for that process we will need your ID. Okay. So, just so I understand, um, they're asking me to leave. >> No, they're they're telling you you're not back allowed on this property. They're making an official report doc documenting that you're not allowed on this property. >> Okay. I haven't been here before. >> It doesn't matter. >> I'm just trying I'm just trying to understand. >> No, you keep on trying to string it. >> You say you keep trying to understand, but we're explaining to you the process. >> You just keep on going and start and and you keep going back to the point that we've already explained. All right. So, here's the thing. We get your ID, we put it in the system, we trespass you from the property, you're on your way, you're never going to return here again, so it's not going to be a problem for you. Right. >> We make it official and and we move on. And that's that. That's the end of it right there. Okay, >> sir. I was not planning to come back here. So, >> okay. But we have to make it official still to their request. Now, if you don't like that, you can call into corporate and you can complain about that. >> What's this company? >> It's it's Murphy's. >> Okay. Okay, this is Murphy's gas station. But >> right now, the people that are on site who are the ones that have the authority to do that, that's what they want to do. Okay, so we're going to move forward with that process. >> And if you want to call them and complain, you can do that later. And if management or someone above them wants to go ahead and lift that or do something about it, that's on them. But right now, right here, people on site who are the people who have responsibility, that is what they're wanting to do. And so that's what we are moving forward with. >> Okay. So I again just to understand the process. >> Well, you've explained it multiple times now. >> What provide your ID or not? >> So that's that's what I was going to ask. >> So in in this instance, if I if I refuse to show my ID, what's going to happen next? >> It's considered obstruction, failure to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer in the legal course of their duty. >> And you're going to arrest me and take me to jail? Is that it? If you refuse to identify yourself while we're trying to do our jobs? Yes, sir. It's as simple as showing the ID. We trespass you and we all move on. >> I was hoping to go to the church today, but if you're going to arrest me, go ahead. Is >> that really right you want to go? >> Why? Why won't you just show us? I'm just trying to protect my constitutional rights. This is not right. >> That all I did was stop during the rain, >> right? >> Be safe >> for a long period of time. >> And then now you're arresting me >> because I didn't show my ID. No, because you sound right. No, you stop. >> Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Listen to what I'm saying because you've said the same thing over and over. >> You were talking for 5 minutes. Okay, stop talking. Let me finish. You You keep interrupting and not listening. Okay, you were here before this business even opened. Okay, you you caused the employee to be fearful because they were not sure what your purpose was for being here for a long period of time. Okay, but your your behavior isn't normal. So they said, "Hey, we're concerned that people, you know, stake out things. They look for businesses that are closed so that when they open or close, they'll they can rob them. I'm not saying you were going to do that, but your behavior caused them concern. Therefore, they called the police who came to inquire about what your purpose was for being on this property. So due to that nature of that complaint, we're going to identify you to figure out what your purpose is for being on this property. You have a chance to alleviate our concerns. Part of that is identifying yourself. We need to know who you're we're talking to. We don't know you. Okay? And then on top of that, because your actions made them concerned, they don't want you back on the property. So therefore, we have to identify you to document that you're not allowing us property and you're refusing to comply. If you had the chance to alleviate our suspicion, fine. But during the course of that, you're required to identify yourself and furthermore identify yourself so they can bar you from this property, which is their right. This is private property. So, you need to identify yourself. It doesn't have to be that complicated. You could have been gone. We could have been on our way by now. But you're trying to go on a crusade for something that I'm not sure what's going to be, but it's not really logic. Are you going to start? >> Go ahead. >> Okay. So, as I said, I'm willing to be arrested if that's what you guys want. >> No. No. No. No. No. No. No. That's garbage. >> That's not what we want. >> We want you to identify yourself. >> We want you to identify who you are. We want to move on with your day. Just identify yourself so we can move along. want to go to church this morning, but you want to arrest me for you want to go to church. You want to go to church, right? You say you want to go to church and this your ID, you'll be out of here within 5 minutes. You can go right to church. You don't want to go to church. You want to try to make yourself into something that you're making something that it's not. >> Okay. So, I can leave. So, I've said my piece. So, um I'm going to cooperate. I'm going to arrest her if that's the process. That's really the route that you want to go with something as simple as this. >> That's not what I want. >> All you need to do is give me your ID or give us your name and date of birth >> and we will be moving on. You will be down the road going to church. >> Is this your vehicle? >> I think this will clear up very quickly once I speak to a judge. >> But is this your vehicle? Like I said, I I'm willing to be arrested and I'm not going to speak anymore because you're telling me I'm going to be arrested for me. >> Sounds like you're going to put me under arrest. >> At that point, I would like to talk to the lawyer and I'm not going to say anything else because I know anything I say. >> Okay. We're not asking you to say anything. We're simply asking for your ID. >> We've already talked. >> This is an argument over ID, not stated what I do. >> And the problem is until you get positively identified, you're going to remain sitting there >> in front of a judge. This is going to look very silly, but I'm willing to go through the process >> because I thought you wanted to go to church and you're not planning to come back here. It's you want to go before a judge? You're really contradicting yourself. This is literally one of the simplest and easiest things we deal with on a daily basis. daily basis. >> So, will you provide us with your ID? Sir, I've already spoken. I'm going to be arrested and speak to a judge about this whole process. You don't get to speak to a judge. You get booked. It's a misdemeanor charge. You get a bond. That's not how it works. >> So, will you provide your ID? Yes or no? >> I'm willing to go through the whole justice process. >> This isn't you. >> Will you provide your Will you provide your ID or not? >> And you're saying I may not speak the judge, but I think if anyone sees what's going on, >> how you're not cooperating, all it's asking for is something as simple as your ID. Will you provide your ID? Yes or no? >> I don't know. So, you're refusing to comply with your lawful order to provide your ID in furtherance of his investigation and the barring that has been requested this morning. >> I'm I'm willing to be arrested. That's not We're not asking if you're willing to be arrested for an item. You told me I'm going to be arrested. So, >> we're warning you of the consequences of if you fail to identify yourself >> and comply with this process because it's not we're asking you, but you need to understand it's not a request. >> It's not a question. It's a you need to identify yourself at this point in time. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. I don't understand why we can't just move on from this. You'd be on your way. We'd be on our way. And it would be as simple as that. I understand. cut. Mhm. Heat. Heat. That's it. Hey, heat. Go go go go go. Heat. Heat. >> [cough] >> Stop. [clears throat] Heat. warm Oh, crazy. >> All right, we're going to go to jail. All right, put 10 back in. 95 is 1095. >> I don't know. Like you're like on a tell or something. Is there anything else that's going to poke or cut me? >> Uh, no. I don't have anything shot. >> Okay. Is this your car? the other keys and like to talk to a lawyer. The cars let you fix my phone. Okay. 7 on Central. Who is the registered owner of the vehicle that we're out with? Okay. So, >> we ran the restaurant in New York cuz driver's license and he wouldn't answer. Did he tell you whether this was his car? He wouldn't tell me. >> Well, that's who we're out with. >> I mean, now you want to tell me what everything but what I need to know. Just in case. >> Just in case. It's going with you. I'm not taking it. >> Okay. >> I just don't want to be a threat. So you don't >> What are you talking about? Nobody's What are you talking about? >> You're putting me in >> cuz you're under arrest. So refuse identify yourself. >> Okay. Now you're searching me. >> You're search incident to arrest. >> I'm just nothing. >> Okay. You're going your search incident to arrest. Okay. I already asked what I wanted to ask. Now you want to give me a play by play. What's in your pocket? >> If you said you're looking to poke, stick, or hurt me. Okay, great. >> I'm not. >> Now you want Now you want to enter everything as you and your ID. >> I'm not a danger to you. I didn't say you're danger literally search every single >> You're really trying to make something in life. >> It doesn't matter who they are or what the reason for the arrest is. Everybody gets searched. >> I know I have nothing dangerous on you. >> He asked that and you >> Nobody said that. >> No question. >> Nobody said that. I'm sorry. Let's go ahead and get the heads up. >> I don't understand people water. Especially because after the arrest it was in his wallet. It was right there. That's a solar panel on top of it. >> Is that really? >> That's I believe that's a solar panel that runs down into the car to power whatever he has going on in there. >> I wonder travel travel. I was going to say that'd make it really easy to live out of the car. >> That'd make it really easy to live out of it. Especially if he's on a what did you call it? A a missionary journey or something like that. >> What you saying? >> I've heard of Quakers, but I know nothing about them. I'm not a very religious person. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Now that he's at this point, cuz I still have catch up to do from yesterday. >> I got you, son. You're good. confirm something to tell you. >> Hey, you're bar for two years >> from >> Murphy. Okay. >> Good morning. I'm sorry, sir. >> You're okay. Case details. The pretext. Upgrading a customer loitering complaint during a storm into a criminal obstruction arrest. Legal violations. Fourth Amendment violation. Unlawful seizure without probable cause. Mislication of trespass warning laws. Identity coercion. Fabricated charge. Obstruction of justice.