Alexandra, I'm gonna save you potentially some trouble right now. It's Florida state law. Listen to me, Alexander. Listen to me >> because I've been very courteous with you cuz I've been very courteous with you. Okay, listen. Listen, we will let you know. >> So, if you had opportunity to just try to tell her something right at this moment, what would you tell her? >> Cuz I'm very sorry and she can beat my ass. She'll never got to talk to me again. She I know that cuz her baby go. I can't bring her baby back. Like a three-year-old, I can't bring her back. >> But if I can talk to my friend, if you was my friend, I'm sorry. Any story where someone loses their life, and in this case, two people who were just in their teenage years. It is incredibly tragic. But what makes it even more shocking is the fact that this was apparently a targeted attack. That's at least what family members and neighbors of the victims are saying. These are the victims, Maria Neotus and Isabella Salas. Both were 17 years old. They were best friends. They were riding home together on ebikes in their community of Cranford in northern New Jersey, not far from New York City. All of this took place Tuesday night around 5:30 according to police. WPIX taking an image from their chopper of the crime scene. The girls were on Burnside Avenue. It's a typical suburban street outside the city. the girls riding down the street and they were struck by a black Jeep Compass. Police say the driver then took off. Here's a picture of what the vehicle looks like. This is an image that was put out by the Union County Prosecutor's Office when they were still searching for the driver. Soon after word of what happened to these young girls went public, neighbors went public with what they say was really going on, that this was a targeted attack by a boy who was allegedly stalking Maria Neotus. Now, here's what Maria's uncle put on Facebook, saying, quote, "My beautiful young 17-year-old niece was killed." He said the suspect followed her to her house for months. He allegedly harassed her. They say they notified the police many times. He called the suspect a psychopath. In the post, he also says that he hopes the law now does its job. In another post, he says that the suspect watched his niece from a park by their house and he watched every move she made. He also says he wants the suspect to rot in hell. Neighbors in the town where Maria lived also voiced their concerns about this alleged stalker. It appears everyone knew what was going on allegedly involving Maria and this boy. It is possible, according to WNBC television, that Maria was in a relationship with this boy and this was potentially over a breakup or it was over some kind of argument. Now, at the time of this recording, Union County prosecutors have not named the suspect in this case. All we know is that he's 17 years old. This is the news release [clears throat] that they put out yesterday announcing his arrest. The alleged killer now facing two counts of firstdegree murder. Now, the name of the suspect, again, that's not been made public and we're waiting to learn more information about him. But as soon as this story went public and chatter started to spread, and remember, so many people in this neighborhood apparently know exactly who this boy is, we're not going to name him until the prosecutors do, but word got to the police chief of Westfield, New Jersey. His name is Chris Bataloro and he went public on Facebook with this statement which is very out of the ordinary in cases like this but potentially speaks to just how much anger there is in these communities for what allegedly happened. Now this statement on the official Facebook page for the town reads, quote, "While social media has made it known that the accused is related to me, he is not my son and not a member of my immediate family. I want to be clear as loud and as firm as possible that in no way do my wife, children, or I condone, defend, or excuse the actions that caused this terrible and tragic loss of life. He said that he remained silent over the past couple of days until charges were filed against the suspect, who he does not name. Now, it's hard to imagine what the families of these victims are going through. Here's a picture posted by Isabella's family. This was just days ago. their daughter behind the wheel learning how to drive as so many teenagers do. The caption by her mom reads a moment like this. Maria's obituary says she was born in Greece and she moved to the United States. She was going to high school in the town of Cranford, New Jersey. And once she graduated from that, she was planning to start a career in cosmetology. There is a GoFundMe that has been launched for the girls this week and it has raised more than $130,000. Joining us now to talk about this is retired NYPD detective and co-host of the Gold Shields podcast, Tom Smith. It's always great to have you on Law and Crime. Um just just a very sad story here. Uh the uh suspect who at the time we're recording this, we know he's 17, but we don't know his name. Uh he's charged with two counts of firstdegree murder. Um and I know it's different from stateto state, but in New Jersey, what does that tell you about the case against him? Well, it probably lays out the premeditation of it in in stalking and watching her and and planning this because something didn't go right in their world. Uh, and it's just like you said, Chris, an absolutely extremely sad case of something that was so probably preventable that ends up in the death of these two young girls from the moment that this story broke. And if it was a hit and run, it's still, you know, without the premeditation part of it, it still would be incredibly tragic because of the loss of these two young girls who were just going home from a school event on their on their ebikes. Um, but it seems like he had that there was an issue in the neighborhood knew that he was allegedly stalking her. Um, how do you pre and it's hard to say like how do you prevent something like this, but if it was reported that that they had this issue? I mean, it's not like he had a gun, you know, and that could, you know, a law could stop that. I mean, if he's using his car allegedly to do this, like, how can something like this be prevented? >> Yeah, it it's a lot of parental and family involvement in in continuously calling the police and getting them on the scene and getting them involved and a possible restraining order is always a, you know, deterrent. Not always the best thing because it's a piece of paper in the eyes of bad guys. uh you know, and if they're hellbent on something, they're not going to, you know, regard the restraining order as anything bad. But it is absolutely a tool that can be used. But it's just a continuous police presence in visiting the home of this kid and getting it the message through to him that you're doing something illegal and you're going to get, you know, locked up for this. uh you know and that's that's where you know parents need to get involved in their kids' lives when something like this happens and the oh they can handle it has to go out the window. >> Yeah. And it and it seems I mean I know we've talked a lot of stories. I mean this kid's 17 years old. He's now facing two counts of first-degree murder. I mean obviously he took allegedly two lives but you know for him I mean I think of a punishment if he's tried as an adult. He could spend the rest of his life um in prison. What goes into deciding because I know initially his name is not being released because he's 17 years old. What goes into the decision of whether or not he'll be tried as an adult? >> Well, if he's 17 years old, in the eyes of the law, he's an adult. So, he's got no leeway there. Uh, regardless of what he did and when it comes to a murder case, uh, he's certainly going to be charged as an adult. And I I just think of this scene and I a lot of it is incredibly morbid, but I mean when you are gathering evidence of a scene like this that played out on this street, I mean what are some of the important pieces that law enforcement needs to have to build a case uh against this 17-year-old? >> Well, there's a lot, Chris, and I I'll kind of go through each one uh in what it means. The first thing is an accident scene investigation of any skid marks, any breaking marks of preventing, you know, or trying to stop from hitting them. [snorts] Uh, camera footage from Everyone's got a Ring camera on their house. So, you're going to piece together a number of videos that are going to show this graphic event happening from different angles, from different points of view. Then you're going to get into interviews and interviewing people that might have been there, the actions of the car, what happened afterwards. Uh, you know, and then of course you're going to get more into a background investigation with the the past of these two individuals and what, you know, their relationship was. But at the scene, it's very graphic and it's a continuous, you know, investigation with with those events and those things that are just laid out. >> Yeah. I I can't imagine um having the car, which I believe they do have because the suspect is under arrest. I think it's a Jeep Compass. What does that vehicle itself tell you as an investigator? >> Well, what you know, the damage of it, uh the damage of it, if there's any GPS tracking in it, you know, where they were, how long they were at in the area, you know, and then where they went afterwards. But the damage of the car is going to play a part in it. uh what parts were damaged. And like I said before, it's more of the scene that's going to be, you know, uh taken into place here with with skid marks and breaking marks and all things like that are going to really play a part in this. And and then when it comes to the premeditation part of it, and we've seen with so many of these suspects, there's a digital background, especially when they're 17 years old. So many of these kids live their lives on computers and online. um how do you go about trying to piece together who he is based off of what a digital footprint may look like? >> Yeah, you're just gonna you're gonna work backwards. You're going to go from the date of that event and just continuously work backwards into his social media accounts and hers and quite possibly their friends as well to see just just this network of communication and what was said. But you're gonna work backwards and you're gonna go keep going and keep going because there's going to be a lot there. Like you said, these kids today, especially 17 years old, are always communicating with one another with what's going on in their lives and a number of different platforms that they're on. So all of that is going to play a part in this as far as the premeditation goes and the relationships of these people. He apparently had an infatuation with this girl, Maria, who's one of the victims. We don't know exactly, you know, were they boyfriend, girlfriend, how long the relationship was, but they knew each other to some extent and he apparently had an infatuation with her. And, you know, I just think that, you know, such young lives ruined in this story. Um, I guess in your experience in in dealing with this, I mean, how often does these like teen emotions, love, and and all of that come out and and end in a way, frankly, is just horrific as this one? Yeah, maybe not as horrific as this, but you've dealt with ones that, you know, relationships and stalkings and not being able to let go of relationships. And you got to remember they're 17 year olds. They don't even know what relationships are yet or how to handle them or or what love is all about, you know, and they get wrapped up in this trying to be adults in this adult world and they just can't process something not working out for them. Uh so that's where the problem lies uh when it comes to especially kids and and teenage kids that are involved in relationships like this. What is the legal threshold for stalking? So if he is parked it was reported that he was neighbors have said he was parked outside the house for several nights if not weeks um if not longer I think. And but then at the same time I mean it's a free country. you can go wherever. You know, maybe he just likes parking on that street could be the argument that a defense attorney would make. What is the legal threshold for something to be considered stalking? >> It's going to be a lot. It's going to be and unfortunately, you're not going to be able to interview the victim in this, but you're going to get into the parents and interviewing them about conversations that took place. How scared was this girl of this guy? And you're going to, like I said, go into interviews of their friends in school, their teachers. Was anything so evident that this girl was so scared, you know, to be around him or near him? You know, that's going to play a major role with the stalking charge. And of course, like we just said, the digital footprint. What was said on those text messages? Were there any threats uh that were made by him, you know, and how did she take that? So all of that kind of lays on top of one another when it comes to building a stalking case. And >> how do you go about getting in, say there was an Instagram and the Instagram was deleted as far as the public, but actually getting that information, learning what his handle would have been. Um, how does law enforcement go about that? Well, you're going to you're going to conduct a search warrant basically, and you're going to ask uh Instagram or Google or whoever is involved with those platforms to cooperate in this case, and you're going to you're going to send them a search warrant for the particular accounts of the people that you want to see into. >> You know, sadly, when you you cover crimes and I think back to when I worked in in local news, like sometimes you'll go to a scene like this and nobody wants to talk to you and you're the guy with the microphone. In this case, it seemed that everybody in the neighborhood was ready to go tell the local media that this is not just a regular hit and run. This was something far more than that. And everybody seemed to know the story as well of what's being alleged. Um, I will say police have yet to confirm a lot of it, but but that story's been put out there. What does that tell you about just the willingness of this community and the awareness they have about what they say was far more than just a your run-of-the-mill hit and run? >> Yeah. You know what? That's a community you want to live in because they're looking out for one another and they're aware of what's going on. Uh the thing is, you know, who did anything about it? That that's the you know, it's great that everyone came forward after the event and said, "I knew this. I knew this. I knew this." But what did they do beforehand to bring it to the attention of of local police or the school or anything like that to maybe prevent this? you know, not laying it on them at all, but you know, you just want to know if there was that much knowledge of this stalking going on, what was done about it. And you know what the other thing is? This could be any family. And that's what scares everyone. And that's what's, you know, everyone wants to get what's going on with this and maybe warning signs and red flags that go up in your own relationships about, you know, what to look out for on a parent level as well. So, I think that all plays into it as well. Well, I think too this local police chief from a neighboring town uh who had been rumored to be related to the suspect will say same last name. Uh some have said online, unclear if that's true, but he wanted I mean he goes on the official town Facebook page and he says I am not close to this person whatsoever. I I have you've ever seen I guess have you ever seen something like that? Cuz I was like shocked. I had to check three times to make sure that there was actually a blue check mark next to this seeing that this case has create created such a stir in North Jersey that you would have a police chief trying to distance himself from it. >> Yeah. That's how horrible it is. That's how horrific this is when you think of what went into this and the the violent way these two young girls died. I mean, that gets everybody. I don't care who you are, you know. And if you can have a commonality with someone that's involved in this, Yeah. you're going to get far away from it as you can because of just how bad it is. >> And then just lastly, and and sadly, we've talked about a lot of cases involving people who are young and they do something incredibly violent. Um, and I just think he's 17, you know, and then there's there's a whole bunch of other people within this age group and people of all ages cause crimes. I get it. And he's accused of one. We'll see. Innocent until proven guilty, of course. But just over your time, have you seen a like what is the issue here with young people when it comes to I mean a horrific crime that he is accused of? >> Yeah. You know what your guess is as good as mine, but it's it's you know what other terms do you have? What other ways do you have? There's other ways other than just violence to get past something or get out of something. And somehow you know the we've done shows together course. you know, these young kids just that's their like default mechanism is to just do something violent to get out of a situation and it's not the case. You know, go to your parents and talk to them. Hey, I'm having a tough time with this. A teacher, a coach or mentor, you know, a sibling, anybody to just try to talk more than just actions. you know, actions are taking over way too easy when it comes to these cases where a simple conversation with an adult or with someone you look up to can prevent something like this. And I think that just needs to be out there more. >> And once we learn this suspect's name, it'll be interesting. But I just think and and this is probably more of a question, you know, for a prosecutor and and they'd be the one who has to prepare for a defense, but I think if you have you have the vehicle, you have potentially him driving the vehicle, it it may not be much of a who done it. I mean, what would the defense be for something like this? Um I mean, and I know that's the question for the defense attorney that will defend him, but at this point, you would have to think it's a pretty strong case that investigators would have. >> Yeah. I mean, they're going to do their job. you know, as horrific as cases are, you know, defense attorneys have a job to do and they're going to bring up certain things, maybe how certain evidence was collected, you know, was there any uh, you know, bullying going on or uh, you know, stuff like that in interviews. So, there's going to be there's going to be a lot that the defense attorney is going to try to do, but in the end, you know, you can't get away from the evidence. You can't get away from the actions of what was happening. So, you know, is a plea deal in the in the works, you know, really quick to prevent or, you know, stay away from a a trial that the parents would have to go through. So, you know, I could see a quick end to this. Uh, but we'll have to see and see how it plays out. >> Yeah. Just can't think of the parents what they're going through um, you know, for for this to take place. We'll see how the the legal process plays out. Retired NYPD detective Tom Smith, the co-host of the Gold Shields podcast. It's always great to have you on Law and Crime. Thanks for being with us. >> Always a pleasure, Chris. Thank you. >> We will keep a close eye on this story as [music] we continue to work to learn the name of the suspect in this case. >> Do you need medical attention? >> No, I'm good. >> She's over there. She has a baby. >> Stay here with her. No, no, no. Move away. Move away. >> Ma'am, >> okay. I I know you're not going anywhere. Can you put your phone up for a second, please? What's your name? >> Oh my god. >> I'm sorry. I'm trying to take video proof. >> Please find my home girl. Please. >> I need you to tell me your name before we before we go to anything else. What's your name? >> So, why were you guys fighting? >> Because >> she's overthinking things. >> What do you mean she's overthinking things >> between me and her husband? I don't have nothing to do with her husband. >> Okay. >> All I was doing was on the phone with my mom while he was outside smoking a cigarette >> and she was thinking me and him were doing something. Okay. >> While I was on the phone WITH MY MOM. >> OKAY. ARE you guys all staying here? >> Yes, we are. >> Okay. >> And I had the baby the whole time. >> And she came after you while you had the baby. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, where's the baby now? >> Me while I had the baby. While I was carrying the baby. >> Okay. So, where's where's the baby now? That's what I'm trying to find out. But y'all not [ __ ] letting me take off and look for the baby. >> No, we're not letting you take off. We needed you to tell us which way she went. >> Please at least go look for her. Please >> can you calm down and tell me which way SHE WENT? >> I CAN'T CALM DOWN CUZ IT'S A 9year-old month baby. >> Okay. A 9month old baby. Which way did she go? >> She took off right over there. Please. >> All right. Have a seat right here. Call officer. >> I'm okay. I'm good. She's the one that hit me. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's why I wanted Hey, hey, look at me. Listen, listen. That's why I'm just looking at your injuries, okay? That's all. >> That's all that's going on right now. All right. >> Okay. >> Here, have a seat. Take a breath. Take a breath. We got Listen, listen. We got three officers over there looking. All right. >> All right. >> Can I ask you what room number you're in, ma'am? Hey, we're [ __ ] in trouble, Mike. Like, um, oh, [ __ ] Like, yeah, she [ __ ] she hit me in the [ __ ] face. I hear back while I was holding a real, bro. Like, she's [ __ ] out of there. Mad as [ __ ] saying that me and you with something else. I don't [ __ ] know what the [ __ ] is going on in her head, bro. But it's [ __ ] up. Like I'm with the cops right now. I'm with the cops legit right now. They're [ __ ] I don't know. They just [ __ ] asking so many [ __ ] questions. Looking for Mariah. Apparently they [ __ ] have her and [ __ ] But they're questioning me cuz I got her blood on me and [ __ ] >> Well, we're just talking to you right now, >> man. >> We're just trying to figure out what went on. >> Mariah took off with Azil. She [ __ ] took off with him. She was [ __ ] mad. As soon as we legit supposedly got out of the camera, she she legit to yanked him out of me my hands and [ __ ] took off with him talking about that's her [ __ ] baby and [ __ ] >> Whose baby is it? >> It's her baby. >> Okay, >> dude. I don't know where she's at. I don't know. All right, I got you. All right, I got you. Just text me, please. >> All right, babe. Bye. >> All right, so Alexander, this is what I need from you. All right, >> I need you to just tell me what went on. Like, what's going on right now? >> Really? What just happened? Me and her just had a disagreement. That's all. >> Is she like your sister or >> Yeah, she's my sister. She's my sister. That's all it was. It was just a disagreement. >> Okay. >> But she just really felt very offended and I I understand her part, but it just never it never played off like that. I promise it never played off like that. >> Okay. >> So, she got mad at me. The baby started crying. I picked him up. She's telling me she's going to leave. I'm like, "How are you going to leave?" Keep in mind, we're all from another state, you know. >> Mhm. >> So, >> what state y'all from? >> Um, we're just from another state. And she told me we >> like what state specifically? >> Well, really we just >> Can I tell you a story? >> Yeah, but like just what state are y'all from? Story. >> All right. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. >> So, um, she just she just took off with the baby. Really? It was just a disagreement. She's just so offended. It was just off. >> All right. Cool. Alexander, what >> do you have an ID anywhere near you? Probably not. Okay. So, what state are you from? >> I'm from Texas. >> From Texas. Okay. >> Do you mind giving me like your full name real quick? I don't I don't really want to. >> Well, you don't really have a choice. Like, you have to identify yourself. >> I don't have to. >> No. Alexandra, I'm going to save you potentially some trouble right now. It's Florida state law. Listen to me, Alexander. Listen to me >> cuz I've been very courteous with you. I've been very courteous with you. Okay. Listen. We'll let you know to identify yourself. Okay. I have no idea. No, you didn't. Okay. I need to know your full name. >> Where is she? Can you at least tell me? I'll be happy to tell you that as soon as you give me your name. >> I do. You do. No, I'm good. >> Can you please tell me which >> Hey, where are you at? >> Hey. >> Hey, you're wrong. >> Hey, can you hang up? >> No. >> No. I'm asking you to >> give us Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> Oh my god. Why are you acting like that? >> You don't put your hands on me. >> You don't put your hands on me. >> I didn't put my hands on this thing and follow instructions. >> Why are you acting like poison? Stop pulling away from me. Yes, you are. >> I'm not. No. Please stop pulling away. >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not >> You need to stop resisting and tensing up. >> I promise. No. Oh no. >> Sorry. >> Okay. Have a seat, Alexandra. >> When I was >> Have a seat. Have a seat. >> Have a seat now. >> Alexander, >> I HAVE A BAD LEG. COME ON. I HAVE A bad leg. >> Are you primary? >> I wasn't. Oh, you actually were. >> Yeah. >> You still got my pack. Thank you. That's what I tried to save save the trouble of happening. But I I didn't >> between you not wanting to give your name, you tensing up, you pulling away from me, >> and on top of that, you grabbed my arm. >> And I know that don't fly in Texas. And it sure don't fly here, >> but like >> No, there ain't no butt light. >> There ain't no butt light. >> MAN, DID I I I don't know. I was trying to find >> You got >> 86. I got 110. >> Where is she at least? Can I at least know >> she's safe? That's all you need to know right now. >> But like, is she like, where is she? Is she in the cop car? Where's the baby? Where's the baby? >> She is safe. And the baby is safe with her. >> But where is the baby? >> You don't need to know that right now. >> I do. I'm very worried. >> My god. No. >> Really hope I really hope you gave me your real name. >> You don't got to tell me [ __ ] Now, I really hope you gave me a real name. >> If I if I touched your hand, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. >> Okay. Well, that that's why you're in cuffs right now. >> Okay. I get it, [ __ ] Like, god damn. Like, come on now. Like, >> Alexandria, how do you spell your first name? >> I'm sorry. I know it, but I really don't want to talk. You're kind of you're >> No, but I have the right to not >> That's absolutely fine. That's another charge. >> Another charge to identify >> obstruction. >> That's another charge. So, keep going. >> This is prettier. >> Do you have a middle name? >> I don't. >> Not only that, they won't let you out of jail until you physically identify yourself. We'll book you under Jane Doe and you'll stay there as long as it takes. >> So, have it your way. Is the baby safe? >> I would like to know. I would love to know if the baby >> Okay. Right now, you need to answer the questions that we're asking you. >> Yeah. >> But I there's officers with >> like to know if the baby's safe. >> Yes, the baby is safe. I told you that a few minutes ago. >> But like where is he? Can I ask >> that? Right now that doesn't matter. Like who is he? Like >> what matters right now IS YOU IDENTIFY YOURSELF. >> You need to identify yourself. Okay. >> Just book her under Jane Doe and she'll stay at the jail for as long as it takes. >> That's fine. >> That's what we're going to do. >> It's another charge and then >> But that's how y'all want to play off, right? I'm just trying to play. >> It's not playing. >> No, but I'm >> This is how it's happening. >> All I'm asking is where's the baby? >> I told you the baby's safe. you to identify yourself for a long time. >> Who is the baby with? >> With an officer. >> With an officer. >> And >> like I said, right now that's irrelevant right now. >> No, >> this Okay, done. No, >> it's that simple. >> And if she doesn't identify, [clears throat] book her under Jane Doe and she won't be able to be released. >> That's it. She had every chance in the world. Time to go. >> I'll grab her phone. >> Guess what's up, though? >> Catching extra charges. That's what's up. Sounds real cool. >> I'm going to put this on your front seat. >> Okay. >> I don't have [ __ ] on me, bro. >> I was literally running out of hotel room. >> Nice. [ __ ] nice. >> You got my my my phone, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Please. >> Is yours just like over >> You got to put a seat belt on my shoe. >> Okay. >> Do me a favor. Lean back. Do me a favor. Lean back. Thank you. >> For real? >> Yeah. For real. >> For real? >> Yes. For real. What happens when you don't identify yourself in the state of Florida? >> I got the rest of everybody. >> Who are you? >> Is it your child? >> I'm a step dad. Okay. >> So, we need to get some information from >> Yes. >> This is the stepdad. I guess the stepad the other party's name. >> No, not yet. >> Alexandra Salivar, that's her best friend and her name is Mariah Salazar. >> They've been honestly they've been jealous. My wife has been jealous that I'm messing with her friend, but I've I've been pure myself and they just having their I don't know arguments. She called me. They said she said she had a fight. I was hanging out with Duval >> and >> Oh, so you weren't here for this whole >> No, I mean I was earlier here when they were arguing. I was like, I'm out of here. Like, you know, cuz she I mean, she slapped me in my face slightly. I'm not going to press any charge. She's my wife. And as soon as I she touched my my face, I was little, you know, I was little drink. I was out. And she calls me what an hour later and she tells me that cops there took me like about 45 minutes to walk here. >> What? >> I already identified myself with one officer. >> Yeah. >> Y'all have cameras, right? Okay. Y'all can look back at >> Are you going to Can I talk to you for a second? >> Of course. I cooperated, but I'm >> You're not cooperating at all. >> But you have to understand, I'm very worried. Okay, if you'll listen to me for a minute, we ran your name, the name you gave us, and nothing came back. So that's why I was confirming the spelling and everything was was correct, and you refused to give it to me. So guess what? >> MY CHAIN. I GOT MY NAME ON my neck. >> This is for my education. Could we release the baby to a steparent? >> Yeah. If I mean, they're legally married. >> So I mean, she would he would be a legal guardian. >> Yeah, you can. And then I think >> I didn't know if there was something >> is the I think the Is your wife's mother here with y'all too? >> Grandma left yesterday. >> Okay. So, who who's all in the room? >> It's me, her, Alexandra, and Adrian, which is the infant. >> The baby. Okay. >> And you you all live together? >> Yeah, we all live together. We came here for like a business trip slash a vacation. We're checking out a sandb bar for sale here actually and uh the Babies the baby's coffee shop and we're here like for three nights. >> Ma'am, you want to tell me what happened? >> Me and my friend got into an altercation and then [crying] pretty much we got into a fist fight. The baby was asleep and he woke up. I pretty much tried to take her away from him and we fought. She [crying] hit me and so the baby woke up while you guys were fighting. >> Okay. What started this fight? >> Jealousy. >> Okay. And then how did it start? [crying] >> Arguing. >> Okay. You were arguing and then what happened? >> About a past situation. We were arguing about a past situation and then one thing led to another. >> One thing led to another and my baby woke up. She got him off the bed and then I ended up like getting him from her, sir. And then that's when security came, sir. anywhere from the inside. >> Can you spread your spread in they'll get you some water? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. She's good. >> Okay. Thank you. Seat belt back on. One for the books, [ __ ] Key West, that's what the [ __ ] it is, [ __ ] Oh, [ __ ] [ __ ] Oh, [ __ ] it. It's Can I at least know why I'm going in? >> For battery and for resisting. battery. What the What did I want to feale on board? >> Battery. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? >> 21987.6. 21987.6. >> You said battery. I didn't have no item on me or anything. advis the jail that we'll be coming with two female 1015s. They're going to be keeps all you. >> Hey, you said battery and resistance, right? >> Yep. >> What's battery? I'm sorry. It's in Texas they might the same thing as assault. >> Assault? I'm sorry. Assault? >> What? Assault? Assault on what? >> On your friend? >> Assault on my friend? Really? So I was the >> Amanda Greger is a 37year-old woman who appears to have worked in the healthc care field at one point in time. She is accused of seriously injuring her best friend's one-year-old baby girl. The baby, Ila, has horrific injuries, including a brain bleed, and is being treated at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center. She is fighting for her life and was placed on a ventilator. But now, she's been able to come off that ventilator, according to a post on Facebook. Ila's mom, Melissa Bilby, she's a single mom and has four children, and Ila is the youngest. and she was working an overnight shift according to police when the baby was injured. This case is out of Gan, Ohio. It's a community outside of Cincinnati. The investigation started on November 10th when Leila's mother came home and found her injured. The complaint is redacted, but I was able to fill in the blanks based on what we know about these allegations. An officer wrote, "On November 10th, 2025, Cincinnati Children's Hospital contacted the Gan Township Police Department to report suspected child abuse at a home on Woodville Pike, Gan Township, Claremont County, Ohio. On that same date, the baby was brought to Cincinnati Children's Hospital by a person whose name is redacted, likely her mother. According to hospital staff, Ila presented with an altered mental status and several visible injuries, including blood seeping from Ila's right eye and was found to have had a brain bleed. During the course of the investigation, the following information was obtained. Ila's mother had left her in the care of Amanda Greger during the overnight hours of November 9th, 2025. When the mom returned home from work the following morning, she found Ila asleep with abrasions to her lip. She was lethargic and unable to wake. Amanda was also in the bedroom when Ila's injuries were discovered and was observed wearing a hoodie covered in what appeared to be blood and vomit. A search warrant was obtained and executed at the residence at Woodville Pike. During the search of the home, blood stains were located throughout the room. The clothing Ila had been wearing was found in the washing machine, washed but still visibly stained. Ila's mom confirmed the clothing was what Ila had been wearing prior to Leila's injuries. Now, Amanda Greger, she was taken into custody and charged with child endangering and tampering with evidence. Here's video of Greor being booked into the jail in Claremont County, Ohio, just east of Cincinnati. Have you recently attempted suicide? >> Suicide watch. >> You have any serious mental or mental health issues and immediately? >> Oh, I guess I don't need to. >> Uh, do they have to be? >> Greor appeared in court to answer to the charges and the prosecutor offered more details about the allegations. Take a look. The defendant told police she had consumed a lot of vodka that evening, unsure of the actual amount, was using THC and was on unprescribed unprescribed muscle relaxers and did it, but doesn't remember what she did. >> Greor stood in the courtroom wearing an orange jumpsuit as the prosecutor detailed how Ila's mother found her. >> When the mother came home the next morning from work, she came home to a horror scene no parent ever wants to experience. The defendant was in the bedroom with the baby, standing over the baby. This is every mom's worst nightmare. Baby Leila's family shared this photo of her with a local news outlet. She was placed on a ventilator at the hospital. Now, get this. The prosecutor says that when Amanda Greger was interviewed by police, she said, "Right, I know that about the baby's injuries. A baby just doesn't end up injured for no reason." And she added, "If I can do something like that and not remember, maybe I am a monster." So, I want to bring in Mark Weaver to discuss this case and the horrible, absolutely awful allegations here. Uh, Mark, you work as a prosecutor in the state of Ohio. You sometimes work as a judge. This is a horrific case with a horrific set of allegations. this poor little baby Ila is in the hospital um you know fighting for her life at Children's Hospital in Cincinnati and she um it sounds like she's making some good progress but may not be out of the woods yet. Um what is your take on the allegations here from what we're reading in the complaint? >> Yeah, the evidence is stunning. Um, every parent would be mortified to learn that the person who they trusted their child with has abused this child and and the injuries to this baby are um difficult to read. The evidence tells a story of of a babysitter who clearly committed heinous physical abuse against this baby. There's blood at the scene. There's attempts to wash the blood away in the laundry. The babysitter says she didn't remember what happened, but she was clear of clear of mind enough to go and wash the evidence away. U we may never know exactly what happened, particularly if this woman was under some influence of drugs or alcohol, but under the law, voluntary intoxication or being under drugs is not a defense to any crime. So luckily, there's not much luck in a case like this, but luckily the crime scene and the evidence builds enough of a case for a jury to want to convict this person, probably of seconddegree felony um felonious assault and also probably an additional charge of tampering with evidence. >> What's so horrifying to me about this is that Amanda Greger was apparently a very good friend of Leila's mother. And so Leila's mom is working long hours and she leaves her daughter from everything we're we're finding out with her good friend thinking my my my beautiful baby girl is going to be with my friend who's going to love her and care for her, you know, as much as I do. And the allegation here is that she goes to work and she comes home and and she finds blood on the walls and her baby is is a mess. Like she won't wake up. I mean, that's what's so stunning to me about this. I mean, it could happen even if it she left her baby with a family member, but this is somebody who she trusted as her friend to care for her baby. And it sounds like from what we're seeing too, Amanda Greger works in the healthc care field or at least did at some point in time and was a nurse of some sort. So you've got that aspect of it too. I mean that's terrifying. >> Yeah. I really my heart goes out to this mother. She she's a single mom. I think she has four children. This is the youngest of the children. Single moms often have to go out and work and they need child care and it's tough. and she turned to somebody she trusted and she took her most valuable person in her life, the most loving and vulnerable person in her life, one of her children, the youngest, and put her in the care of this person. Uh, all of us who have children have had to bring a babysitter in, and we all hope for the best. This is just one of those tragic outcomes and there's going to have to be a serious prosecution with a serious punishment for what is a very troubling outcome. I'm hoping and praying that this child is going to come through this. Uh children can be resilient. Uh and she's certainly being cared for in one of the one of the best children's hospitals in the country. So all of us should be hoping and praying for an outcome for this child and justice to be done with this what appears to be an abuser. >> I I want to go through the complaint. you know, just a little bit. I'll put it up on the screen here. Um, and basically, you know, the allegation according to the complaint was that, you know, mom comes home and she finds Ila with an altered mental status, several visible injuries, including blood seeping from her right eye. Um, and she was found to have a brain bleed. That that to me says some type of injury obviously to the head. And then they say during the course of the investigation um they found that mom just leaves leaves Ila with Amanda Greor in the overnight hours and when she returned home from work uh the following morning she finds her daughter asleep. She's got abrasions to her lip. I mean it sounds like this baby was just like beaten. Uh she's lethargic and unable to wake and she finds this woman Amanda standing over her child in in the bedroom. I mean, the the prosecutor described this as her mom walking into a horror scene. I mean, can you even imagine, Mark? I mean, and it sounds like they they find the clothes in the washer. So, this baby was brutally abused, according to the prosecution while mom's at work and she walks in seeing this woman standing over her. >> Yeah, prosecutors will need to bring significant medical experts to testify about this. There won't be any witnesses. is the defendant will almost certainly not take the stand and testify. I doubt there was video surveillance in the house. But there's a concept in law, we get it from tort law, but it applies elsewhere called race eloquid or Latin for the thing speaks for itself, which means we can deduce from a set of facts what happened. And in this case, we can deduce from this set of facts that this caregiver abused the child. Now, some of these symptoms are consistent with shaken baby. When a baby is being violently shaken because they're crying or otherwise annoying the caregiver, it's the abrasions on the lips that makes this a little different because normally shaking a baby, which is a horrible thing to do. You never shake a baby. Uh creates internal injuries in the head. abrasion to the lip suggests that there was either some punching hitting or um dropping the baby on on some sort of surface that would cause the abrasions. >> It certainly does. Um you know, there's some uh information floating around out there on Facebook that the baby uh has been Ila has been taken off a ventilator. That's good news um that she's been able to come off of that, but that doesn't mean that there won't be potentially lasting impacts from these injuries. Oh, for sure. That's Babies are, I mentioned earlier, they're resilient, but they're also growing so quickly at this age that any damage to these these tissues or some of the connections in the brain um could have long-term effects. Like, like I said, I'm hopeful and praying that this child will be able to fully recover, but this is serious stuff. And um that's why we take child abuse cases so seriously as prosecutors. And it's the kind of case that gets me the most angry and wants me to spend as much time as I can to ensure justice for these victims. >> Right now, the charges as they stand, uh, we have a child endangering charge. We have tampering with evidence charges. These are just the initial charges after Amanda Greger's arrest. Things can often change when you go to grand jury. Do you see potentially additional charges being added based on what we know or do you think that these will remain the same? >> I think this will likely wind up with a seconddegree felony felonious assault or aggravated child abuse. Uh we're all hoping and praying this child does not die. Obviously, if the child were to die, it would be a horrible tragedy and these charges would be upgraded then. But as the investigation continues, other things will come out. And having spoken to a lot of grand juries over the years, I'm here to tell you that the grand jurors will be furious about this case. And I've been in grand juries where the grand jurors have said to me, "What other charges can you bring?" I'll I'll I'll bring them a certain couple charges I think they should indict on. And there are times when grand jurors hear the facts and say, "Please give us any other charges you can because we want to indict this person on additional charges." >> That's really interesting. Um because Amanda Greger is, you know, allegedly they're going to take a blood. Obviously, they took blood from her um after this to see what drugs she had in her system. She made an admission about taking these drugs, you know, the the painkillers that were not prescribed for her along with the THC and drinking vodka. I mean that does that enhance the charge in your mind or is that an you know an aggravating factor to any charge or does that enhance the culpability? >> Yeah, it certainly shows recklessness. Um I if there had not been serious damage to the child, then this would make it easier to to bring the charge up. But it's the damage to it's a physical injury to the child uh that raises this up to the level of at least a secondderee felony. And so the charge is pretty serious as it is. You can serve up to eight years in prison for a seconddegree felony and then I think it's a thirdderee felony for the tampering with evidence. So those charges could be stacked. So this woman could be serving a very long prison sentence. Uh, and the investigation's just starting and I'm going to imagine these investigators feel motivated to look as deeply as they can into this woman's life to see if there are other things that would indicate she's violated the law. And so I would not be surprised to see additional charges. >> Well, we will definitely keep an eye on it. Um, you know, it's a horrible case, horrible case. And, uh, this poor little baby and her family. Um, we hope that, you know, she does recover and can live a normal life, as normal of a life as a child can after sustaining injuries such as these. Uh, Mark Weaver, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. >> A sad case. Thank you for having me on. >> It just so happens that right after I spoke with Mark Weaver, the grand jury in Claremont County, Ohio, indicted Amanda Greger on that felonious assault charge, just as Mark had predicted. So now she faces nine charges including felonious assault, child endangering, and tampering with evidence. She faces up to 23 years in prison if she's convicted. Now, as I mentioned, Leila's mother, Melissa, is a single mom with four children, and a GoFundMe page has been set up to help her out with expenses. It reads, "Joey's sister, Melissa, has been at Children's Hospital with her daughter, Ila, since Monday morning due to the severe trauma to her little one-year-old's body. She was admitted to the Piku with a brain bleed, bruised lungs, fluid along her spine, and fluid around her heart. She was intubated, then later placed on a ventilator, and she is being kept heavily sedated to help her heal. Melissa gets told every day that this will be a long process, several weeks to maybe months. Melissa was working Sunday night and left her with a lifetime friend that she trusted to protect her and keep her kids safe while she worked to provide for them. While this is all under investigation, we do have faith that justice will be served for Ila. Melissa will be out of work for an extended period of time while she is with Ila in the hospital. She hasn't left her side and doesn't plan to until she gets to come home. Please consider donating to help offset the cost of any bills that will begin piling up, mortgage, utilities, food, repairs to replace carpet that was removed during the investigation, etc. Melissa is a single mother of four children. Please continue to pray for Ila, Melissa, and her three kids. And here's another look at the bodywn camera footage of Amanda Greger being booked into the jail. >> Have you recently attempted suicide? >> Suicide watch. Do you have any serious medical or mental health issues that immediately address? >> I guess I don't need to. >> Amanda Greger remains in the Claremont County Jail in lie of a $500,000 bond. Charges will be presented to the grand jury at a later date and we'll keep you posted on this case and little Ila's recovery. >> To have a young son brutally murdered is unfathomable. >> A Georgia man who was once a haunted house scare actor will spend the rest of his [music] life in prison for the gruesome and horrific murder of his own best friend. >> Brandon knew how much Aaron's siblings needed and loved him. But Brandon stabbed Aaron to death, made him suffer first with that knowledge that Aaron was so needed. >> The psychological scars from betrayal from one who we treated like a son or brother is irreparable. >> 23-year-old Brandon Risyner pleaded guilty last month to charges including malice murder, felony murder, assault, battery, concealing the death of another, and removal of body parts from the scene of a death. Rynner was convicted of stabbing and disembowing his friend, 21-year-old Aaron William Davis. The two were close friends. They went to the same high school and attended the same church. The two would eventually move across the country to attend BYU Idaho. And while Risner only attended the school for the fall semester of 2021, Aaron graduated from the university with a political science degree in June of 2022. But by the late fall of that year, everything would change. On November 11th of 2022, Aaron stayed the night with Risner at his home in Rome, Georgia, while on his way to visit his girlfriend in Alabama, but tragically never would make it to see his girlfriend. Aaron's family would call authorities to report him missing. And during the search for the 21-year-old, police would discover Aaron's car in a ditch near a local park. That clue would lead them to Risner's home, which would unearth more chilling details. According to prosecutors, Ryner stabbed Aaron 40 times. Then Risner attempted to dismember his body. Ryner also tried to cover up the murder by putting his friend's body in a suitcase and into the trunk of his car before burying Aaron in a shallow unmarked grave and ditching the car behind a levey in a local park. After the murder and attempted cover up, Risner fled before ultimately turning himself in. Years later, in June of 2024, Risner pleaded guilty to the horrific crime. During his sentencing hearing, prosecutors revealed more gruesome details into the murder. >> So, a total um of 40 stab wounds. Six to his head, four to his neck, 21 to the torso, two to the left upper extremity, and seven to the right upper extremity. Um there was also attempted dismemberment um around his abdomen and around one of his arms and shoulder area. Um but we believe um that the dismemberment happened after um I do have a few photos um not many uh just to show some of these injuries because I'm going to talk about the level of hemorrhage associated with them which with the injuries. Um so this is the front and back of Aaron. Um the injuries have been labeled by the medical examiner um with the letter system. And I did want to there's significant injuries to the neck both in the front and the back. There are also injuries down along this side. Those begin with I and go into JKL. Um and I'll show a different angle of those later. But I also want to highlight that there are not injuries on Aaron's hands. Aaron didn't have any defensive wounds. Um, Aaron didn't see this coming. Aaron didn't defend himself. This was not a case of mutual combat or anything like that. Um, he does not have any defensive marks on his hands. Here's a side view of those wounds that I mentioned, JKLM andN. Um, and I'm going to put up a diagram now that um, shows these injuries but on a drawing instead of the autopsy photos. So, this is colorcoded. Pink means that there is hemorrhage. And what hemorrhage indicates is that Aeron's heart was beating. Um, and so his blood was pumping through his body. So those injuries that I talked about on the side over here that we saw a picture of a moment ago, those all have pink. So, his heart was beating, his blood was pumping. Also, those neck injuries that I pointed out, same thing. Um, on here and here and here, a pink meaning his heart was beating. Um, most of the colors on here are pink. The orange meets minimal hemorrhage. It means that the level of hemorrhage was less um most likely because the heart was beating less or it was beating slower. In other words, Aaron was dying at that point. So, orange means he was still alive, but his heartbeat was weaker and slower. No color on the chart means that there was no hemorrhage. Um, it doesn't necessarily mean post-mortem, but it does mean that his heart wasn't beating at a level to cause a hemorrhage. Most of of the marks on here are colorcoded. And what that means is that Aaron was alive when this happened. And for the majority of these horrific wounds, Aaron's heart was beating and there was hemorrhage and he was alive. And then the next level of wounds shows again the orange hemorrhage, meaning his heartbeat was slower. It was weaker at that point. I will point out that these shaded areas are parts of the dismemberment that we saw um in the autopsy photos as well. Um and again that is believed to have happened post-mortem um or after Aaron's death. Also um part of the autopsy um a portion of the small intestine was missing and it's believed that it was removed through this um area of dismemberment there. The Floyd County Assistant District Attorney also revealed to the judge disturbing searches Risyner made on the web. >> So in this one, and these start over here and go in this direction. So this is on November [clears throat] 11th, Friday. At this point, Aaron is dead. The defendant has already killed Aaron and he is searching over and over for sheets and blankets. More than 20 searches for sheets and blankets. What he's trying to do is find a replacement for the sheets and blanket that Aaron is ultimately going to be buried in. He's trying to find a replacement set so that the bedroom will appear unchanged and again to cover up his crime. These are his searches on that day continued. And um I'll highlight just a few of them. Uh professional stain remover. Does Walmart have duct tape, schizophrenia symptoms, hydrochloric acid, best secluded locations, how to drain washing machine, and more searches for the sheets and blanket. Um, and all of these indicate that he is trying to cover up his crime. Um, he's looking for stain remover to try to get the blood out of the carpet. Um he ultimately does go to Walmart later that day um around 6 pm and he does purchase duct tape and he uses that duct tape um to uh wrap Aaron in the blankets that he's ultimately buried in. Um hydrochloric acid um is famous because Jeffrey Dmer used that on some of his victims. That was a search that the defendant made. Um best secluded locations ultimately he buried Aaron in a secluded location. So that was part of his search of what to do with the body. So, at this point, he has not buried Aaron because he doesn't have the duct tape and he hasn't found the location yet. And how to drain washing machine. We know from officers that the next day they're going to discover bloody sheets in the washing room. Um, and so he's already concerned because he's been using the washing machine to try to clean these things. Also, in between his searches to cover up his crime, he's also watching videos from No Country for Old Men, which is a horror movie that focuses um on a murderer, that's the main character, um and his uh violent crimes, and as he goes out and one of the videos that the defendant specifically watches is a scene where the murderer has been injured and he needs to go to a pharmacy. So he he blows up a car to create a distraction to go into a pharmacy. Um the defendant was also injured at this time. He's later going to search on for what to do about the cut on his finger. Um but just interesting that in between all of these searches about what to do with his best friend's body, he's also watching videos from a horror movie about a violent killer. All right. And so on Saturday, November 12th, he is still looking up carpet cleaning crew, also water damage restoration, and a company called Chattanooga Blood Spill Cleanup and How to Clean Blood Out of Carpet. So there's the Chattanooga blood spill, how to clean blood out of carpet. In the days leading up to this, he had some interesting internet searches as well. Um, one of those was one flew over the Cuckoo's Nest book. Um it's a it's a famous book. Um but the premise is that the uh person is going to be convicted of a serious crime and so they feain insanity in order to go to um a mental institution instead of prison. He also looks up multiple times 10 tips for dealing with guilt. And then there's some typos in this, but what I believe it is trying to say is tricks to feel less guilty. According to prosecutors, those weren't the only chilling web searches Rynner made. Assistant District Attorney Leah Mayo told the court Rynner also made a postmurder to-do list. But the state also revealed music lyrics posted to Ryner's YouTube channel, which contain shocking lyrics seemingly referencing Aaron's gruesome murder. >> When I get home, schedule last three songs. That is a reference to his YouTube channel where he did post music. Um he wrote um quite a few songs and performed them and had some of them on a YouTube channel. Um number two, vacuum. Number three, laundry. Number four, shower in my shower. That's important because Aaron was dismembered in the guest shower. So he's making a reminder to himself to shower in his own shower and not the shower he used to attempt to dismember his best friend's body. He also says to take a bath. So again, a preoccupation with cleaning, possibly to try to remove evidence that may still be on his body and again vacuum and laundry. These are related again to his attempt to cover up. But then he also texts a he makes a written reminder to basically create an alibi defense via text to his stepmother Rachel by saying, "Text Rachel that Aaron threw up horribly. I think there was some blood in it. I woke up and he was gone." So, he actually wrote down what his cover story was going to be in this postmurder to-do list. Um, and we know from his phone records, um, that he actually called Rachel that following morning. So, he did follow his own to-do list in that regard. So, the way notes are organized on the phone is the most recently edited appear first. So, this one actually was on top of the post-murder to-do list, which means it had been edited or looked at or worked on after that. And since we know that the postmurder to-do list had been created after the murder, this also was created after the murder. This appears to be some of his lyrics for a song. And the ones I want to highlight are right here. He screamed till he choked on his own tongue and blood. His scream became a gargle as he swallowed his tongue. I believe the defendant is describing Aaron's death. His scream became a gargle as he swallowed his own tongue. If you'll remember in his to-do list, the very first one was about um his music. Music was clearly very important to the defendant. Um, and so this this was a newer song, but he also had some of his older songs that he had created prior to the murder. And I've pulled um one of those here. It's entitled What You Do. Um, and I'll highlight what I think is important here. It doesn't matter what you do. Go kill someone. Go love someone. You can't plan the future. God decided it for you. It's fine to think that I'm just a little toy. Um, and if these um are indicative of his philosophy, that is a dangerous philosophy. It is one that sherks all accountability. If there's no free will and everything is predestined, then there's also no consequences for actions and there's also no reason to ever exercise restraint. And so that is a dangerous philosophy. And it also is a philosophy that doesn't demonstrate remorse. There's no remorse in that type of philosophy because it doesn't matter. The state then called Aaron's loved ones to give victim impact statements. One of the loved ones included Charlie Girl Skellinger, Aaron's girlfriend, who gave a heart-wrenching account on losing the love of her life. Aaron Davis was and is the love of my life. I will never be the same for having known him. He loved me and I loved him. I could tell you a hundred love stories and it would not do justice to how wonderful he was. No one has ever understood me quite like he did. To him, I was seen for my soul. His death shattered me. I was a fragment of who I am. When I received the news that Aaron was dead after running all through Rome in the freezing cold looking for my love, I collapsed outside of a gas station in front of an ice machine. And I could not stop screaming. That first night, I slept in my mom's bed. I couldn't sleep without waking myself up crying. I couldn't be alone in the dark anymore because I would see Brandon's face lurking around dark corners. It was a blow when we found out Aaron's personal items were missing. We never got Aaron's phone back. I've had nightmares about it since that day. Losing someone's phone feels like losing another little piece of them. Aaron and I had special bracelets with the planets on them we got for our three-month anniversary. He kept his bracelet in his car because he wanted to be able to wear it every time we were together. Aaron was infamous infamous for his bright shirts and sense of style. And some of his most iconic ones were packed for the for the weekend we had just planned that day. These items with so much sentimental value are lost to us. I had hinged so much of my healing on being able to see Aaron's body one more time. And another blow came when we were denied that opportunity for our own good. The damage to his body was too much. I never got to say goodbye. I never got to hold his hand or touch his face one more time or touch his hair or hug him. I got to kiss a cold casket and hope that he knew how much how dearly I loved him. We had so many plans for our future and the life we were building together. Thanksgivings and Christmases, family traditions. We wanted to go to the beach together. It was his favorite place. He was one of the most wonderful people to be around. We wanted to have kids and raise them together. He especially wanted a daughter. He loved the idea of all the little experiences that would come with being a girl dad. We talked about being in the delivery room and him getting to do skin to skin contact and having that bonding moment. We wanted a wedding where both of our families could be together to celebrate to be there for our first dance. We wanted to be married for time and eternity. But because of a man he called his best friend, who surely would have been one of his groomsmen, Aaron and I will never have these opportunities. It has been torture to live with this new reality. I met Aaron a little over two years ago now, and I am still as in love with him as I was the first time I told him I loved him. I don't know that I'll ever be able to move on to live with the guilt being the only one living our shared dreams. >> Then Aaron's father, Randy Davis, spoke to the judge, recalling the nightmare his family has gone through since Aaron's death. >> On November 12th, 2022, I received a call from the Rome Police Department that my car that my son Aaron had been using was found in a ravine here in Rome, Georgia. As far as we knew, um Aaron should have been at his girlfriend's house in Alabama the day before. So, this was certainly unexpected. Since Aaron was staying in Rome the night of November 10th at the home of uh Brandon Risner, I called Brandon immediately to let him know and asked him if he knew why the car would be there. Um Brandon acted concerned and mentioned that Aaron had stayed an extra day in Rome and then he noticed that he had left sometime during the night before. With a few additional phone calls, Brennan added speculation as to what might have happened or where he may have been going, such as going home to receive that Nintendo Switch game system that was mentioned previously. He also mentioned to me that Aaron may have been suicidal and tried to kill himself. [snorts] Um, Brandon even came down to the site where the car was found and attempted to search for Aaron. >> Then Aaron's father spoke on the goals Aaron had for himself as a fresh graduate from college. He had just come home and was so excited. He had just felt like he had just kind of hit that check mark where he was ready to to launch off into life. [snorts] He had decided that he wasn't convinced that yet that law school was for him and so that he but he thought he would be a great teacher. So the morning before driving to Rome, he had aced the GAC exam required for applying for a teaching certificate program. He would have been an amazing teacher and could have impacted many lives that way. His long-range goal was to become a college professor if he ultimately decided that law school was not for him. It's such a tragedy to me that so much potential was wasted due to the to the defendant's actions. >> Aaron's father, Randy, also expressed to the judge his devastation of learning his son's murderer was someone once close to the entire family. >> The psychological scars from betrayal from one who we treated like a son or brother is irreparable. Every time I hear my son Micah refer to murdering an opponent in a video game, I feel pain. I work with elderly people at an assisted living center now, um, who are naturally conversational, want to discuss, and always ask me, "How many children do you have?" Um, instead of answering five, which is correct. I usually have to answer four because I don't want to get into that with them. I don't need to burden them with with what's going on in my life. But [snorts] it's a challenge for me. I've been waiting for this day to try to begin healing from this. is it's still hard to fathom whether this is a real event and that is not just that he's not just away at college still. I've done what I can to try to keep myself as busy as possible. Um working working having a um a secondary um you know job that I work on um trying to spend time with the family being active at all times in order to not let my mind have to think about what happened. I do believe in both justice and mercy. I believe that justice can be best satisfi satisfied as Aaron will not be coming back would be the best justice would be for the defendant never to be allowed of custody again. I do hope that he can find mercy with God and seek help while in custody to be able to plead with God for his mercy at the appropriate time. Beyond [snorts] the hideousness of the crime itself is the ability to hide those intentions, a total lack of remorse such that I would never be satisfied no matter how cooperative he would be in prison that he could ever be trusted again. I feel that it would be wrong to make any recommendation other than life in prison without the possibility of parole for someone capable of committing a crime like this. [snorts] Um tell his other friends that he's doing better than ever while simultaneously covering up this hideous act and lying to us about what happened even to the point of trying to make us believe that our son had to take his own life. As a father [snorts] and husband, I've tried to be the stoic and strong one, especially as this has caused so much distress from my wife Sarah. I fear that I haven't done this as well as I done enough as I try to understand this myself. I hope that no one has to go through our what um Aaron and our entire family has endured at the hands of Brandon Risinger. Thank you. >> Aaron's mother, Sarah Davis, gave an emotional statement to the judge. She said Aaron was very close to his siblings and should have been with the entire family that day to celebrate his little brother's birthday. It's Micah's birthday today and he would should be here celebrating with my son. He he organized whenever Aaron uh Micah had friends over. He helped play with them. Micah just loved how Aaron would play with him. Shortly before Aaron was murdered, I overheard Aaron four different times saying to Micah, quote, "Mr. for Micah. I picked out a game for us to play together." Micah has autism and he doesn't have people. And Brandon took the person he had, the cooler older brother that would play with him. Brandon knew how much Aaron's siblings needed and loved him. But Brandon stabbed Aaron to death, made him suffer first with that knowledge that Aaron was so needed. Brandon stole Aaron's life by murdering him and broke our hearts and devastated our lives. I have cried every day for a year and a half. I've had a hard time sleeping since Aaron's murder, and when I do, I have nightmares of Aaron being stabbed to death. Some people in our household had a fear of Brandon coming to our house and stabbing them to death. And when they hear noises at night, they think it's Brandon breaking and coming to murder everybody. Brandon is the worst type of evil where he chose to stab Aaron to death and caused such a tremendous loss and pain to those who treated him with love. Brandon deserves to serve life in prison without the possibility of parole. >> When it came time for the defense's side, Risner's parents gave tearful statements to the judge. His father, Jeremy, who went first, said prior to the murder, he never showed a sign of violence, but admitted his son struggled with his mental health. I realize that most people in this room and all those TVs [snorts] are seeing a murderer and they're seeing they're seeing what they're going to see. What [snorts] they don't see, what they'll never see is the joy that he [snorts] brought into our lives the day he was born. He's a kind, gentle person who [snorts] never ever showed a sign of violence in his life. He showed nothing but kindness. He was a part of the Davis's family. There was an open door, a revolving door. I took that boy to scout camp every week, every year. >> [snorts] >> They were family. He loved the smile on those kids' faces when he would go over there. So, we let him go over as much as he wanted. [snorts] When he went on his mission, you could tell he was feeling more and more like he's looking at his life from the outside like he's not there. But we tried we tried to get him out offer him love and encouragement. [snorts] He's the reason I choose the right. He's the reason I would pray at night cuz he set an example for me. [snorts] He was always strong for me when [snorts] he went on his mission. He ended up getting counseling for the same reason. suicidal tendency, feeling detached, feeling like he's outside looking in. We knew something was wrong. [snorts] We got help for him. He was home for a while, went back on his mission out in Utah, and it was the same thing. The mission president got him the help he needed. We knew he had Tourette's. We knew he had OCD. [snorts] We knew there was something different. But again, he was filled with so much kindness and love. Your [snorts] honor, we firmly believe that Brandon's actions were not the result of malice, but rather the [snorts] culmination of his mental health conditions. We're committed to ensuring that he receives the ongoing treatment and support he needs to manage his illnesses. We ask for your compassion and understanding [snorts] in recognizing the profound impact his mental health had on his behavior. We earnestly [snorts] hope that with appropriate treatment and care, he can one day prove himself, able to reintegrate into society and lead a productive life. [snorts] We humbly request that you consider a sentence that would be conducive to mental health treatment [snorts] and eventual redemption. Our family's dedicated to supporting Brandon during this time in c during his time in custody. We're prepared [snorts] to take all the necessary steps to ensure his continued rehabilitation while serving out his sentence. [snorts] Thank you for taking this time to consider our request for leniency and the possibility of parole. >> Risner's mother, Jenny Lee, began her statement with an emotional apology to Aaron's family before pleading to the judge to spare her son from spending the rest of his life in prison. >> How sorry I am for the Davis's loss. [snorts] And I carry that grief with me every day that I have to let you know about Brandon. [gasps and snorts] I never imagined [laughter] that I might one day have to stand here and ask for hope for the life of one of my children. I never thought that I would have to defend one of my children's characters because [snorts] I'm sorry. [snorts] I never thought I would have to defend one of my children's characters because they have shown their character through [snorts] the lives they live live. But until these last couple of years, I always assumed that a person's character was defined by how they live their life. [snorts] However, I have come to believe that determining someone's character is much more complicated [snorts] than taking a snapshot of their life. A simple glance at their life does not show you the trials that they have faced or the obstacles that they have overcome. [snorts] My youngest child, Brandon, has taught me this. As his mother, I cannot define him by his worst moment. So I ask you today to consider what defines our character. [snorts] Does our one worst act despite a good life define all that we are? Can one horrific mistake erase a lifetime of love and kindness? I cannot believe it does. [snorts] And I hope you can see that too. My child is kind and a loving human being who suffers from severe mental illness. [snorts] that were not recognized or dealt with in time to save two [snorts] very good people's lives, Aaron Davis's and my sons. [snorts] I ask that the time that he serves [snorts] will be in a facility that can teach him, treat him, and help him [snorts] overcome his mental issues. I ask that you consider granting him hope for a future outside of prison mole someday so that he may one day return to the family that loves him. Echoing what Risner's parents expressed, Ryner's attorney argued he should eventually be granted parole. >> The tragedy that happened that night is is is not fixable. And I can't begin to feel the way the Davis family feels right now. But we are here, your honor, for a sort of business, and that is the sentencing. every one of their victim impact statements was very very difficult to hear. But I'm advocating on on behalf of Brandon. I'm not saying somehow that he get released early uh outside of the 30 years. I'm not suggesting anything that's that's not completely legal. I'm I'm making an argument for mercy. I'm making an argument in equity. I'm making an argument for a kid that maybe if he had a little bit better therapy or a little bit better doctor once upon a time, this would have never have happened. >> But the defense's argument and emotional pleas from Brandon Risner's parents weren't enough to sway the judge. >> Both of these young men have been loved throughout their lives. And I know all of you are experiencing tremendous pain, including the Risner family, but the pain of Aaron's family far exceeds that. Uh to have a young son brutally murdered is unfathomable. I hope that your fond and loving memories of Aaron and that your faith will provide you some comfort as your life continues. Having said that, I have considered all of the facts and circumstances of this case and council's arguments and I have come to the conclusion that justice requires that Mr. Risner be sentenced on count one to imprisonment for life without parole. And that's what I'm going to do. And that's based upon the premeditation, the manner of death, and the efforts to cover up all of the acts. On count two, felony murder that will be vacated by operation of law. Count three to which Mr. Risner also plead guilty will be vacated by operation of law. Count four of the aggravated assault will be merged into count one as will count five aggravated assault and count six aggravated battery. Count seven, concealing the death of another. The sentence will be 10 years. Count eight, abandonment of a dead body, there will be a sentence of three years. Count nine, theft by taking motor vehicle with a value more than $5,000, the sentence will be 10 years. Count 10, removal of body parts, be a sentence of 12 months. Count 11, tampering with evidence, be a sentence of 10 years. And count 12, obstruction, that's a misdemeanor. The sentence will be 12 months. So, the total sentence is life imprisonment without parole. >> Did you want to add something, Miss Mayo? Your honor, count 11 is a misdemeanor. You had said 10 years. >> Count 11, tampering with evidence. >> Yes, sir. >> Well, I thought I looked that up. Okay, that will be a sentence of 12 months. That's opposed to 10 years. The sentence speaks for itself. God bless everybody in the courtroom. >> Brandon Risner didn't speak during his [music] sentencing hearing. Online records reveal he's still behind bars in the Floyd County Jail before he's transported to [music] prison. Some moms are stretched really, really thin, juggling work and family and sometimes just exhaustion. So when someone offers to help, you might take it. But this time, that trust cost a mother her daughter's life. Harmony Henderson was a three-year-old little girl who was non-verbal and autistic. 31-year-old Aisha Harris. She is going to spend anywhere from 28 to 50 years in prison for murdering Harmony. Aisha was a friend of Harmony's mother and she was babysitting her at her home in Detroit when she was killed back in 2024. A medical examiner determined that Harmony's cause of death was caused by blunt force trauma, but multiple injuries were on her body, and they appeared consistent with being struck with an object, and she had superficial burns, most likely caused by hot water in an attempt to wash or revive her. It all came to a tragic end when Harmony's mom, Paris, England, went to pick her up, only to find her beautiful little girl's lifeless body. Desperate, Paris rushed Harmony to the hospital. Aisha came along, but she left the hospital when police took her to the Detroit Detention Center for processing. The investigators wanted to get information about the initial drop off from Paris, Harmony's mom, on March 15th, 2024. >> So, tell me from Friday, tell me what happened all the way up until yesterday. >> Um, well, Friday, me and my friend was texting or whatever. >> Who is your friend? You got to you got to tell us everything cuz we don't know who you're talking about. Okay. >> Paris, England >> and that is >> the mom of >> mom. Okay. So, Paris, go ahead. >> Okay. So, me and my friend Paris was texting Friday or whatever like normal as we do. So, she was like, "Uh, these damn kids getting on my nerves and this and this and that." So, I text her and say, "You want me to get the baby?" She was like, "Yeah, if you can." So, I say, "Yeah." And she was like, "Okay." The two moms, they've been best friends for the past 5 years, so watching each other's kids is not out of the norm. >> I was I was having a hard time with Harmony cuz she was having like one of her episodes. >> So, explain that to me. What's the episode? >> So, she was artistic and she couldn't really like she was nonverbal. >> Nonverbal. Okay. >> So, instead [clears throat] of like >> it's like a newborn. Now when you don't know what's wrong with them, but she's old enough to tell you, but you don't know what's going on. So she's just crying or she's emotional or me and her was like this. [snorts] So nobody could cut him down but me, >> right? >> So that means she she's stuck with me 24/7 if she's not at school. >> So I needed a break. >> And I I tried to get her daddy to do it, but he had to work. So, I was just going to suck it up and I was going to let my oldest daughter go with her daddy because I knew it was the weekend and I was just going to suck it up. But I text my friend just to see what she was doing and she offered to to let Harmony come over. My initial idea was Harmony was coming over for a day. That's what I thought. But when I got there, she said, "Oh, Harmony can stay the weekend. Matter of fact, Harmony will stay until Monday. Don't worry about it. I know you need a break." Cuz she understands. like she know I call her when when I can't take it anymore, you know, when I when I'm stressed. So, she understood. >> Aisha knew her best friend Paris was that type of parent that could never relax. So, she assured her as she was leaving that she had everything under control and she did until Saturday. So far, it was only the girls in the house, herself, her daughter, and Harmony up until 400 p.m. That's when Aisha's friend named D'Angelo came over. So he left at 7:00. You went in the room and you realized she threw up. >> Yeah. >> Where did she throw up at? >> On the bed. >> On the bed. Um, did you change the sheets at that point? >> Yeah, cuz I was about to lay back down. Like at this point I'm sleepy and and it's time for them a nap, too. You know, I'm going to nap >> cuz it's [laughter] like what time? He left at 7. >> YEAH. 7 GOING ON 8. YEAH. SO IT'S time for a nap or whatever. >> So about 8ish is when you realize she threw up. That's when I was about to lay down. Um, she was still in her little spot, laying down and everything, too. That's when I moved the little cover, put my pill down. Soon as I put my little lid like this, >> was it a little bit of time? >> No, it was a lot with food, the cookies and stuff. >> Just now, Aisha casually mentions that she was high to investigators. Earlier in the interview, she openly admitted to her vices. >> I'm a smoker, baby. I smoke. smoke. Not all all day, but >> so you you for show you smoked some on Friday, you smoked you through a few on Saturday while you had company. >> Now, Aisha probably thought that mentioning her dependency on weed would explain her behavior. I mean, drug use in front of children, it's never ever okay. But she tells investigators she was still capable of caring for the children. She was aware, she said, that she got lazy after smoking. So, after Harmony threw up, she forced herself into action. So you go down in the basement and she come behind you. Well, >> not really be like couple of >> How many stairs is it leading to the basement? >> It's a lot, but I don't She didn't fall down all of them cuz I heard her little feet. >> So how many would you say she fell down? >> Not for sure. >> Okay. Would you say she was halfway down all the way at the top? Cuz your boom boom boom boom boom sound like a whole bunch of stairs. >> So it was around 8:00 p.m. when Aisha updated Paris about Harmony falling down the stairs. Okay. She called me and said, "Harmony fell down the stairs." So I asked her, I said, "What you mean fall down the stairs?" She said she had the tablet in her hand and she was coming cuz my baby love cocoon, but she just now learning how to skip the ad. So she don't know how to skip the ad. She come find you so you can skip the ad. >> Mhm. >> And she said she was in the basement and the kids was upstairs on the second floor in the baby room. She said she was putting clothes in the laundry and she said that she heard the baby coming so she was trying to hurry up. She said [snorts] that the baby came and she heard the baby fall. She said she didn't see it. She heard it. So she said that she cried but not like that. My baby fall down the stairs like two times before and when she she cried but then she just you know oopsie like you know what I'm saying? So I sent her I hung up the phone to her because I asked if I said let me see my baby. She said, I said, "Send me a picture of my baby." She said, "Nah, friend, I don't want to send you a picture." And I hung up on her. You know what I'm mean? Like, >> send me a picture of my baby. So, I called her a video call on Facebook. >> Okay. >> And I seen my baby. It was just literally a bump and a busted lip. I took a picture of it because me and her dad have a communication. If something happened to my baby, I sent him pictures to let him know to keep him updated. He know everything, you know, what's going on with her. And I I showed him that. So I took the picture and she was laying on the bed and I told her to pick her up because I don't want her to lay down. I said, "Watch her." I said, "Miss, she's okay." I called back not even 45 minutes later just to check on her. She said she was okay and she was laying down. I asked I said, "Is she acting like she in pain?" She said, "No, she's chilling here." She video called me. I see my baby. My baby chilling. She she watching Coco Melon and she pointed at the screen and she pointed at the screen for me [laughter] and I should have got my baby to the screen. That's the last time I seen her alive. >> Okay, so let's rewind. Paris was periodically checking in with Aisha about the status of Harmony after her fall. And each time Aisha assured her that she was okay. In the final hours of Harmony's life, Paris called to see if her eye was better. Aisha said it was and to stop calling. So, the big question is what happened between then and 2:00 p.m. Investigators press her to find out. >> Watching the TV. I'm on the bed just watching my phone, laying in the bed or whatever. >> So, her h I'm back there doing her like making noises like she about to go to sleep. Normal stuff she do, twirling her feet, all type of stuff. her pet normal stuff. My baby watching TV. >> Mhm. >> So I turned around, she was eating a fruit snack. I ain't paying no mind, whatever. So I'm on my phone still, you know. So I'm like, "Okay, I don't hear her no more." Turned around. She was laying on the pill like this. I'm like, "Okay, she sleep." So I ain't paying no mind. And I hear my friend coming in the house. She got to kick to my house or whatever. So uh she ain't know the code or whatever. So I'm trying to beat her to the door if I can push the code in. Don't nobody want to hear that. But >> that's what for alarm. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And the moment that Paris walked in the door, that's a memory a mother will never forget. >> And I threw my phone and my keys down. I y her name, Harmony. I walk through the room. >> She's Isaia is sitting on the bed. Her baby is on the foot of her bed laying there >> like she just she's just there. And my daughter is on the side of her. It looked like she was either picking through her nose like trying to get something off her face or her I think it was her nose cuz my her nose you know. >> Okay. >> She was picking through a little she said Harmony here. And she picked her up like this. And when she picked her up to do like this, something just told me something was right. Cuz my baby sleep hard. But when you move her, she moves. So when she did like this and br her over and she was still like she was pressing like laying her hair back and doing like she was doing something to her face. So I get closer to the bed and soon as she did like this and her arm dropped, I lost my I snatched her out of your arms. I ran to get my key. She telling me to calm down. But I I know I watch a lot of Lord I know the crew charms all that stuff. So I know when something is not right. I grab my keys. I scream at her and I told the [ __ ] come on. I grab my stuff. I start the car and I did like a hund of six miles. When I brought my baby in, I follow her all the way into the room. And the way how he was on his chest pumping her and the way how her body was just just lifeless. I knew my baby was gone. And the lady act like she didn't want to tell me. [panting] She kept saying, "Calm down. I'm going to tell you if you stop moving." So I stop moving. I'm like, "Tell me. My baby dead ain't she? She just nodded her head and I fell." And then [laughter] I didn't It didn't occur to me that that [snorts] maybe she would have done something because I'm freaking the out like I'm freaking the out. I didn't fail. I'm all on the floor. I didn't swung on people. Um, she right here. She come up to me and ask me, "Is everything, well, not everything, but it's gonna be okay." And I snatched from her instead of blowing her [ __ ] out. >> Especially because she knows what her friend is capable of. >> She's not a gentle parent. You know what I'm saying? >> Stop sugar coating it. Just tell me what she did >> because it's >> it depends. It really depends on her mood to be honest. >> I know. just some of the things that you saw. >> Listen, listen. We're not asking about any of the other the the other charact the other uh factors that that led into the way she disciplined. Just tell us what she did when she was doing her discipline. >> She just, you know, hit her on either the back or the butt >> with a with a open hand. >> Open. I never seen her smack her baby in the face. >> Okay. >> Or I never seen her punch her baby. It literally just be like when the kid standing there, you just pop. That's it. >> Okay. Okay. And you thought that was excessive? >> Me. >> Paris doesn't know why Aisha never realized something was wrong with her daughter. Based on Harmony's injuries, it was obvious. Investigators thought maybe she was more intoxicated than she thought. >> Did you smoke right after she fell? No. >> Cuz I know your nerves was bad. >> No, I couldn't. >> Oh, okay. >> I couldn't. >> Okay. But then Aisha was starting to worry about how this was looking for her. >> Can we not do that? Don't you making it seem bad like I just said. All right, whatever. No, I ain't mean it like >> like that. >> We just want to give you a chance to tell your story. Aisha, >> the only thing I can say maybe the water was high. That's the only thing how this can get up there other than you talking about me beating that damn baby head or how she got trauma to what was however you said it. I know that for a fact. I did not do that. Me this probably. Yeah. No. Mm-m. Would you be willing to take a polygraph? >> What's that? Will I check this? Most definitely. >> You will? >> Mhm. >> Okay. All right. Well, >> most definitely will. >> You will? >> Yes, I will. If it's going to set me free, cuz knowing that I say I didn't hurt that baby. Yeah. And I don't know how y'all gonna put this. The water was too high. Yeah, maybe I did that. But me killing that baby in her grave. I I would like one. I would like one. I would like one. I will. But me looking at that pictures like that, that's messed up. And see, it didn't look like that. The pictures making it look worse. Well, when Paris got to get her, her head a look like that earlier. It did look like that. It did. It didn't look like that. It was red, but it didn't look like that. It didn't look like that. >> At the end of the interrogation, Aisha leaves the detective with a message to deliver to her friend. >> You going to go see her? Uh, we probably talk to her eventually. Can you please give her a hug? >> Probably not. But you think I wouldn't? >> I don't know. I know. My friend and she she and she probably tell y'all my friend not like this. What was What was she going through? She have her her all the time. I don't know what I be. It wasn't the weed. Like I smoke all the damn time, but I barely so. Damn, they need a new coat. >> Oh yeah. I mean, we can't uh have you talk to her, but if you want to write a letter to her, >> I want to give my friend a hug. She might punch me in the face. >> Well, we don't want that to happen. >> Well, I accept it. I will accept it. >> Would you want would you want to write a letter to her? >> No, I don't want no letters. I want it to come out my mouth. >> Okay, I hear you. The next day, Aisha gets set up for a polygraph with a lieutenant. >> Okay. So, you >> come in take this jacket off. So, >> yeah, just freaking if you're comfortable with it on for right now, we'll eventually take it off. Okay. >> We got to sit sit. >> Oh, okay. Sorry. >> Lieutenant Lone explains to Aisha how this examination will record physiological responses to ultimately determine when she is being deceptive or not. Then he establishes some baseline readings by carefully conducting some control questions relevant to the crime. >> So what kind of person do you think would assault a child? Good person, bad person, frustrated, tired, >> a crazy person. Like like I like I've been watching the news all that a lot of years been going past like how people hurt a kid. Like I don't understand how can people hurt a kid. But >> so why do you think they would? >> That's why I I don't know. Maybe they tired of the dang on kid. They don't want it. I be having a lot of questions and a lot of little things. I don't know. >> And the only reason they'd accuse you of doing this is you had custody of the child at the time. The baby was in your care at the time, right? >> Yes. She I had her >> uh Yeah, but everybody deserves a second chance. >> Yes. Yes, I should. I should get a check. >> I think you should. >> Yes, I should. And I should not go to prison. I have a daughter. At least tether something something. I'll go. >> When the pre-EST interview is complete, the real exam begins. >> The test has begun. Please remain still. Are the lights on in this room? >> Yes. >> Do you believe that I only ask the questions we reviewed? Yes. >> Regarding injuries to harmony, do you intend to answer truthfully each question about that? >> Yes. >> Have you ever hurt someone who loved or trusted you? >> No. >> Did you strike Harmony in the head causing those injuries? >> No. >> Have you ever hurt someone to get eaten with them? >> No. Did you strike harmony in my head? >> No. >> Have you ever hurt someone out of anger? >> No. >> Even though I've said it would not, are you afraid to ask a question about something else? >> No. >> Test is over. Please remain still while I take the instrument out of operation. All right. looking good. So, we should just have one more to do. Okay. >> Cuz I feel like I was a statue. My stomach kept breathing. I'm kind of holding in. I'm like, "Okay, let me just breathe." >> Okay. Okay. Oh my god. Doing this thing. I'm feeling my heartbeat. Then I feel less. Then I got I heard my heartbeat. I'm like, "Damn, I'm hearing it." [laughter] Okay. Okay. I'm doing good. Okay. feel like girl they feel like I'm messing up like I'm not doing okay okay as long as I'm doing good >> just keep doing >> okay it's like I can hear my heartbeat >> the results come in and guess what the examiner detected deception in Aisha's answers so the following day Aisha says she wants to update her statement despite being a little hungry Aisha seems like she's in good spirits for someone accused of murder >> yep you Thank you. >> All right. You're welcome. >> Whatever. I eat all day. Whatever you bring me. You could bring me some graham crackers. Make sure they got the cinnamon on top. But I [clears throat] am anything. I'm not picky. >> At first, aspects of the story start to change. >> Was it was it one time that you didn't like repeatedly hit her? Did you push her down? was >> and it was in the tub. Yeah. And she banged her head, but I didn't do it. Was just cuz of the situation of the burning and how she was moving. >> She did it on the um damn tub. >> Detectives can tell she's hesitant, but they encourage her to just let it all out. >> So, look, we're here like right. This is 0% truth. This is 100% truth. We're about here by 85 90%. Right? >> That's where I'm at. >> But this right here is the meat and potatoes, right? This is the thing that makes a difference, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. When if we don't tell the truth about this, all this is no good. Okay. So, we got to get here. We got to get to that 100% part. >> Did you Did you you said you you made a reference to it. So, I I think this is you trying to tell me you're trying to ease into it. >> I'm not easing her head to the head. >> Did you Did you push her down? I mean, you >> tug you pushed her down in the tub. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And where did she hit her head when you pushed her down the tub? >> Oh, no. on the energy. >> So, this is Let me ask you this. So, this is the tub right here. Okay. And I'm I apologize. I'm not a good artist. >> I know. It's okay. You getting it out of me. It's okay. >> You're fine, Aisha. We're going to get through this. I promise. >> I know. >> So, this is the tub here. >> Get through it in prison. >> No, Aisha. Let's not put the cart before the horse. We don't know what's going to happen. Again, if you took the baby's head and repeatedly smashed the baby's head against I know you didn't do that, but if you pushed the baby's head down and she hit her head, well, that's something we got to talk about, too. But that's two different things. Do you understand what I'm saying? >> Yes. >> Okay. Here's the tub. I mean, we're going to say this is the wall, the back wall. This part. Maybe the faucet comes out here. >> Oh, here. I'm sorry. Okay. Show us here on the picture. >> To my house. >> Yes. >> No, we've been there. We weren't there yesterday. So, >> how y'all doing? >> Draw a circle around where you hit the baby landlord. >> Okay. Y Okay. Okay. >> Draw a circle around where you hit the baby's head on the tub and then right in that area. Okay. and put your put your initials next to that for me. >> Is that on the outside or the inside of it? >> It's like the outside inside. >> Okay. And this was during the whole thing. You got a little bit frustrated and just kind of Aisha. The only reason I could say I understand is I have two boys. I'm going to tell you a true story. I've told many people this story. Okay. I'm driving down the street with my son. He's a baby and he was screaming and I can still It gives me gives me you know how you your hair stands up on your back of your neck and on your arms. I can still hear him screaming. I had to pull over. I'm telling you, I almost cry about it when I think about it. I had to pull over and get out of the car and call my wife. You know why? Cuz I thought I was going to do something cuz I was so frustrated. Who did you have with you? >> Nobody. You had nobody with you. You had nowhere to go. You had like you you hit your breaking point again. You got that pressure cooker and you lost your right. Excuse my language. Right. >> Aisha, it's it doesn't again it happened, but we're going to deal with it. Okay. It's not what we did, it's what we do with what we did that makes us the person we are. You're not a bad person. >> I am. She died. She died. >> Confessing out loud seems to have brought some relief to Aisha. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. >> All right. She feel >> I feel a little release, but I feel like I'm am a bad ass person. I am a bad person. I don't know why I got frustrated on somebody else. I have my own daughter, but that ain't making it better. Like I'm me saying I got my own daughter, but >> you did it to somebody else's >> as child and it's bad. Now she's gone. Like she is gone. >> Gone cuz of what the I did doing being frustrated, irritated. >> But what? Here's the thing. At the end of the day, Aisha, what you're doing is the right thing. >> I'm at least going to tell the truth. I am It's going to probably take me a minute. me saying I ain't do it, but I already know this. But you know, >> but I hit the baby head once. That's how she got the little cut. And when she got the cut on the head, I didn't do it no more cuz I only hit it one time. >> And with the truth out, investigators are curious about what else she might confess to. >> So, what did you do with the bloody stuff that you cleaned up the blood with, or you just let it go in the tub? >> What you mean? >> Did you use a rag to clean her when she start bleeding? No. Cuz we looked in the house and we didn't see anything bloody at all. >> No, it's in the washing machine. >> Oh, you washed it. So the towel and things like that. >> It's in the washing machine. I told the lady. Yeah. >> Did she actually fall down the steps? >> Yes, she did. >> But she wasn't really injured from falling down the steps, was she? >> No, she she she had the little >> she had a little cut. Her head injury came from this >> the tub. Okay. Well, >> I'm asking you. You got to tell us. >> No. No. She fell down the stairs, but she had the little cut. >> The little cut in her eye right here. That cup came from when I hit her in the head in the tub, the one from the top came from the stairs. >> Stairs. Okay. So, all those injuries that we see, did you see like it looked like red? That was right there. Do you think that came from the hot water? >> I ain't really see it. I just see you talking about the the the at the top. >> Yeah. >> Can we just get this over with? >> Yeah, that's what we're doing. I'm just trying to I'm trying to go down the line so we can just make sure we got everything squared away. >> Can I see the pictures? You want to see them again? >> All of them. >> I want to see everything. >> Yeah, this just the time. >> I still want to see what you got. >> I still want to see. >> Aisha takes a moment with the photos, looking at them in disbelief. >> So, if you had opportunity to just try to tell her something right at this moment, what would you tell her? >> Tell her I'm very sorry and she can beat my ass. She'll never got to talk to me again. [laughter] And she I know that cuz her baby go. I can't bring her baby back. Like a three-year-old, I can't bring her back. >> But if I can talk to my friend, IF YOU WAS MY FRIEND, I'm sorry. You [laughter] know, I can't I never meant to hurt you or hurt her. I NEVER HURT HER. NEVER IN A DAY OF MY LIFE. FRIEND. That Saturday, I was so frustrated. I went THROUGH SOME [ __ ] [ __ ] I WENT I I argue with everybody that day, friend. >> Right. >> People made me mad. I cussed out everybody friend. [snorts] This how we talk. We call each other friend everything. >> Go ahead. Let her >> friend. I was so [ __ ] mad. Them people made me mad. Then that [ __ ] I'm this. I'm telling all my stuff. I was so frustrated. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt her. Huh? I even hit Java and you already know how you don't like me hitting her, but [laughter] I hit her anyways. >> Okay, >> I'm [clears throat] sorry. I can't take this back. I can't take your pain away. I'm [clears throat] sorry. >> I think she would appreciate that. You sure? I think she would appreciate that. All right. So, we're going to let you go and eat. Okay. >> I'm not hungry no more. >> No, some time. >> I'm not hungry. I'm ready to go. 14 months later, Aisha pleaded guilty to seconddegree murder in exchange for a lesser sentence. At her sentencing, her attorney read a statement on her behalf. I pray for peace and for healing for everyone's heart. Most of all, I pray for forgiveness, for the pain that I have caused you. If I could rewind back today, I would. I took this plea in the hopes of sparing the family the pain of the trial. Paris, please find it in your heart to one day forgive me. I will forever be broken. I'm sorry. Aisha will serve her time at a Michigan prison. Harmony will be remembered for being so full of life, love, and laughter. >> And I'mma tell you, I'm sorry. I never you didn't. And I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Following a murder case out of Milwaukee, a shooting between two friends on the alleged killer's birthday. Now, this is 26-year-old Ariel Spillner. Friends are remembering her as a radiant soul who left this world far too soon. She was a pharmacy student at Concordia University, Wisconsin. She was a third degree black belt. She also played college basketball. She graduated undergrad with a degree in chemistry and she was on her way to receiving her masters. Her family said that she had one year left of school. She was born and raised in Wisconsin. She loved the Packers, hunting, fishing, and family. She also was a self-proclaimed Disney adult who dreamed of moving to Florida once she graduated school. Her Tik Tok shows her as someone who liked to have fun with her friends. Now, there is more information coming to light on how this young, bright woman lost her life. When this story first broke last week, the details from law enforcement were somewhat sparse other than Spillner was the one who lost her life. She was shot and killed inside a home at the corner of 39th in Lancaster in Milwaukee. A family member of Spillers told WISN TV that on the night of November 4th, Spillner went over to a friend's house. It was around 8:00 that night, and Spillner had spoken with her sister on the phone before she left. her sister told the TV station when the two of them hung up, the last thing they said to each other was something they always say, and that was, "I love you." Now, Ariel was heading to a friend's house to celebrate that friend's birthday. But her sister did point out to the TV station that Ariel had a big task later that week, so she didn't believe that Ariel was going to be out that late. But then it was at 9:43 p.m. that Ariel was shot and killed, according to police. and her alleged killer was also shot, according to police, which was an interesting twist in this story. We do have new information that was just released that lays out what investigators say happened that night at this home on North 39th Street. Now, here's the face of the alleged killer. Her name is Jamaica Simone Mills. She's 32 years old. And if her mug shot looks familiar from earlier in this episode, it's because she is the friend who is in several Tik Tok videos with Ariel. Here's another one here of the two of them together having fun with wigs on. The two of them seemed close and she told police that Ariel and her had been friends for about a year now. It appears on the night of Wednesday, November 4th, that it was Mill's birthday. We found her Facebook page where around 8:00 she was live for more than 11 minutes listening to gospel music, it seems. Now, it was just a couple hours after that that everything changed that Mills would be arrested for the murder of her friend. Now, according to the criminal complaint, Mills first told police when they arrived that she couldn't remember what happened. She said that she remembered being in the living room and then she woke up in the hospital and she had no idea what happened in between. She also first told police that she thought Spillner had shot her. Police say that Mills accidentally shot herself in the stomach. Now, police pressed Mills at the hospital, and according to this criminal complaint, Mills allegedly said that she and Spillner had smoked weed that night, and she became paranoid. Spiller was supposed to cut her dog's hair with scissors, and that's when police claimed that Mills said she became paranoid. So, Mills allegedly went to her bedroom and got her gun. When she returned to the living room where Ariel was, she said that Ariel made a hand motion and that is when she allegedly fired the shot that killed Ariel Spillner. She said that Spillner never made a threat about scissors, though. And she even allegedly admitted she never saw scissors at all. Now, again, all of this is according to police. Mills's sister-in-law was at the house and told police that she was in the other room and then she heard something along the lines of b- word, you tripping. And that was right before the gunshot was fired. Mills told police that she and Spillner had been talking about who they had dated before those gunshots were fired. Now, Mills had a gunshot wound herself, and again, that's because she accidentally shot herself in the stomach, according to police. Police also describe her as combative at the scene as well as at the hospital. Mills told police that she and Spillner had been friends for about a year, but now she's accused of killing her. In putting the story together, we typed Jamica Mills's name into truthfinder.com just to learn more information about her. And when we put her in Truthfinder, her profile came up showing the address where this alleged murder took place. And in the criminal history section, we do see that she has some previous arrests, but mostly are traffic offenses that she was arrested for, and nothing compared to the type of charges that she's facing in this case, which is murder. Mills is facing a charge of firstdegree reckless homicide. That is a charge that carries a sentence of up to 60 years in prison. She is also facing a modifier of use of a dangerous weapon, which can add five years to that up to 60-year sentence. According to online court records, Mills is being held on $150,000 bond, and she is being represented by a public defender. Joining us now to talk a little bit more about this case is attorney Joe Tambbrino. It's always great to have you on Law and Crime. Um, very sad case here with the loss of Ariel Spillner, this uh this pharmacy student allegedly at the hands of her own friend who appears to be arguing that or or at least from what she allegedly told police that both of them consume marijuana. She became paranoid and that is the reason that she fired the gun that killed uh this young woman. What do you make of that defense? Well, that's a horrible defense because in Wisconsin, as in most states, there is no defense of I was too high, I was too drunk, therefore I'm not responsible for my actions. The only time that really ever is a defense is if it's involuntary intoxication, which just never happens. That's if somebody basically strapped you down and gave you hallucins or somehow uh, you know, made you consume some type of drugs or alcohol. It just never happens. in in this case and clearly I mean murder is a far more serious uh you know charge to be hit with on this but the fact that in Wisconsin as well like it's illegal to smoke weed recreationally as opposed to like in Illinois you can go buy it does that hurt any sort of defense as well if she tries to even get sympathy from a jury that oh my like I I didn't realize I would act this way if I if I consumed this marijuana >> I don't think so only because regardless of whether marijuana is illegal in a state. Times have changed so much. I mean, I started doing this business in 1989, and the opinion on marijuana users from back then till now is night and day. So, regardless of whether or not it's legal in your particular state and in federal law, it's still illegal, the use of marijuana is so common place today. >> Yeah. And the thing is, it seems like just reading from the criminal complaint that eventually the story got to the point that she consumed marijuana. They both did allegedly. And then she became paranoid. She goes and gets the gun. Then there's some sort of hand motion and she fires the gun uh that kills Ariel Spillner. What do you make of the fact that it wasn't that answer right out of the gate? I mean, does that hurt even an argument if you were trying to get sympathy from a jury where I know you can't argue that, you know, it wasn't, you know, the weed made me do it isn't isn't a good argument as it is, but even the fact that it doesn't seem like that was her first story that she told police, >> right? And that's what Well, what you're getting at, Chris, is this. If you are going to give a statement when you're arrested and not request an attorney, you know, which is always a pretty bad idea to do, but if you decide to do that, you got to make sure your story is consistent. And hers is not consistent because one of the ways anyone's credibility is attacked is when you challenge them on giving inconsistent statements, your stories change. That's just terrible for uh one's credibility. Well, and and with that too, I would imagine most people in Wisconsin don't know that it is a leap or it's not a defense that would work to say that the I consume marijuana, I became paranoid. That that's not just a defense that would work in a criminal court. >> It's not. And I would think most people with common sense would know, look, if I voluntarily consume a control substance or alcohol, I'm not going to have a defense. Think of it this way. If voluntarily consuming alcohol or drugs was a defense, how would you ever convict anyone of DWI? It would be impossible. You would just say, "Oh, officer, I was drunk. I didn't know what I was doing." So, of course, the law doesn't allow that. So, I think any juror with common sense is going to know regardless of whether it's alcohol or marijuana, if you voluntarily consumed it, you're not going to have a defense. And then also just kind of looking at this situation and and how it played out where the uh I believe it's Mills's sister-in-law was in the other room and she hears a quote that was written in the criminal complaint uh b- word I can't say the word here but b- word you tripping and then we hear the gunshots allegedly inside the house that that take the the life of this young this young woman. If that is presented, if this would even get to trial and you have a witness on the stand saying that she heard that, what would that mean for how this case could go? >> Pretty bad for the defense because think of it this way. You have a lot of factors here allegedly that would even support premeditation and pure intent. What are they? That supposedly Miss Simone left the scene, went to go get the gun, a gun that she had some purchase order for. it sounds like she recently purchased it and then come back to Miss Spillner and then say something derogatory toward her and then shoot her. I mean, all of that adds up to a lot of intent if the state's able to prove it at trial. So, yeah, they're horrible facts. And I think too, I mean, is there anything on when you look at this because you go through like what just reading this criminal complaint and the story of when police get on scene, you have this suspect who, you know, goes from I didn't know what happened. I blacked out to we took marijuana, you know, smoked some weed and then I I ended up getting paranoid. I went and go get the gun. You know, the the the sister-in-law is saying b word you tripping and then boom, there's a gunshot. I mean, is there anything for a defense attorney that that they have on their side in this case at this point? >> It's difficult to see. I would imagine if it goes to trial, the defense will probably ask for a lesser included. Uh, right now, she's charged with a class B felony, which is up to 60 years. So, perhaps the defense at trial would try to get something like a class C or D felony just to lessen the blow. But what she also has is basically something called an enhancer. Something that adds to uh the criminal charges. What's that in Wisconsin? It's the use of a firearm in this in this uh case. And what that means, and you could see it in the complaint because it's spelled out, what that means is if the defendant is convicted, they get an extra 5 years, 60 months on top of what they would normally get. So, you know, Miss Simone is just facing basically the rest of her life in prison. >> What would it be to be a class A felony? Because considering in this one where it is, you know, she leaves the room to go get the gun allegedly and then apparently, you know, there was something that led her up to the moment that she, you know, said that she was tripping and then boom, the gunshots are fired. I mean, what would it take for that to be even more serious than the charges she's facing here? a premeditated type of crime. But, you know, that's sometimes very hard to prove. You know, I mean, I'm sure what the district attorney, the prosecutor thought in this case is, you know, they've got a pretty good case, at least on the alleged facts, for a class B felony, and it's already up to 60 years. So, perhaps they thought instead of going for the class A felony, they would just stick with what they have. >> If for the defense attorney who comes in, I mean, how do you approach this case? I mean, I'm sure if you, you know, you have this client and I know she's going to be represented by a public defender. Um, you read this criminal complaint and assuming that it's all after her Miranda rights were given to her, um, how do you how do you approach this case and put anything together that can help your client? >> One of the things you have to do is go through your client's history. Uh, perhaps your client had some mental health issues in the past. Maybe they've been hospitalized for that. Maybe they've had other situations where there were mental health breakdowns, some type of mental health disease. So, you go through all of that. You also go through your client's chemical history. I'm I would imagine in this case, they took blood from the defendant. Many times they do. So, you could see what those test results would be. You try to do all of that to see if there's any way you basically could lessen the blow on your client and perhaps get the charges reduced, work out some type of deal. And again, this is assuming everything in the complaint is factually accurate. Now, we're not going to know a lot more about this case until it literally goes to trial because from now till there's a probable cause hearing, even the defense doesn't know what what's happening other than the complaint. You don't get access to police reports and such. in a case like this where it seems that she was aware that that what she did um at least from the criminal complaint um where if she has some sort of mental health issue in the past like how could that come into play to help assuming that she couldn't reach the bar of pleading insanity? >> Well, you bring up a good point about you know when she said she realized what she did think of it this way. What would have happened if she would have said what happened? I don't know what happened. I truly don't remember. and they then stuck with that story. Well, that would be a lot better for her defense because that would go to or support some type of argument that she had some mental health uh disease or defect which prevented her from understanding uh what she did. But that wasn't the case here. If what the complaint says is accurate, you know, she starts off by saying, "I don't remember." and then clearly within a short period of time says she does, but you know, she was paranoid, but she knows that a gun could obviously hurt someone. So, she's all over the place with that. Yeah. And and the other part, too, is I I guess Ariel was going to go to her house to help groom her dog, and there was something about scissors, and that apparently made her paranoid. Um, but it's also noted specifically by police that there weren't any scissors in sight, nor was there any sort of threat ever made about scissors. Like, how does that kind of just factor into this story that police is telling? Very bad for the defense because, you know, when you bring up the the situation of the alleged victim having some type of weapon, one might think, okay, is the defendant raising some type of a self-defense defense? But I think that's going to be difficult here for what you just stated, which was the police didn't find any scissors. There are a lot of things that look like perhaps after Miss Spillner was shot that there was, again, just based on what the facts say in the complaint, some type of perhaps cover up. I mean, look at all the bizarre things. You have uh the defendant herself shooting herself by accident or not in the abdomen. Then you have her removing her own clothes after that shot. Then you have her saying, "Well, Miss Spilner, the alleged victim, had a scissors, but the scissors are never found." So, you know, one could imagine where there could have been this shot. Obviously, Miss Spillner is dead. And then perhaps the defendant is trying to create some type of defense, whether it's self-defense, mental health, removing clothes to get rid of evidence, whatever it is. So, you know, there's just so many bizarre things. Well, and she allegedly shot herself accidentally after this in the stomach. Who determines at the hospital that a suspect is medically able to communicate with police about what happened? Because it seems that, you know, she goes to the hospital for a gunshot wound, which is pretty serious. I mean, not serious enough that she couldn't be put in a, you know, she's in jail right now. But who makes that decision? Well, it depends on the medical situation and that's going to be case-pecific and hospital specific. I would imagine there are some hospitals that have policies. I don't know of any. Uh but usually it's if the person is medically stable, the police can go in and question them and then it's up to the person to say either they want to talk or they don't want to talk. One of the things her defense attorney might look into is did the hospital administer any type of medication to her which could have affected her ability to understand. Uh for instance, say you have someone who's under the influence of some, you know, very powerful painkiller or something to put a person out like propl something like that. Could that affect your ability to make a decision as to whether or not to talk? So all of these things I would imagine are going to be examined. In the criminal complaint, uh, Mills, the suspect, says that both she and Spilner were consuming this marijuana, and I'm sure there'll be toxicology tests run on the victim as well as the suspect. Could that open the door for the defense to make some sort of involuntary argument where it was Spillner allegedly that brought the marijuana to the house and then she consumes the marijuana. and and you can in some ways put the responsibility on a person who's not here to be able to testify to say whether that's true or not. >> It's not going to help the defense with that because the only time that a person providing control substances to someone else would really get into such serious trouble is when that person who consumes the substance dies or is somehow you know uh egregiously harmed something like that. and that's not the situation here. >> And then I I think of the relationship between the suspect and the victim. And from what we can tell, this was a friendship. Um they were reportedly over at Mill's house because it was Mill's birthday. This wasn't a, you know, confrontational type of relationship like a domestic violence case that then leads up to the murder of someone for the defense. Could that factor into anything to kind of lessen the blow if this ends up going to trial or how this plays out that maybe it was deliberate allegedly in the way that you know she says she was paranoid and she fires this gun but in general you look at this relationship and it wasn't the the ones that are toxic and then suddenly reached ahead where somebody died. >> Yes, it could help the defense. Uh the latter of what you said which is uh this is not a relationship that there was any animosity between them. they were friends. And why would the defendant want to kill her friend, intend to kill her friend? And the only way to explain it is that she had some type of mental uh disease or defect, something uh that made her do something that she would otherwise not have done. >> And it seems like this is just a a you know, as we've been talking, I mean, this is a tough case for the defense, these public defenders who are going to be here. Um I know she has a preliminary hearing. I think it's Monday next week. I mean, how soon after that hearing could the conversation start of what a plea deal could potentially look like? >> Well, plea deals could happen at any time. Anytime. I mean, they could happen, you know, as soon as a complaint is issued and, you know, the defendant says to his or her attorney, "Look, um, I see the complaint. I've read it. I would really like you to start talking with the prosecutor and see what we could work out." So, who knows? These are conversations between attorney and client and then attorney to attorney. >> Yeah. And we'll see how this case plays out. Obviously a strong case it seems uh like for prosecutors at this point. Um very sad though to see this this loss of life. >> Nicole Versie is now 31 years old and she is in the fight of her life. Versie is accused of murdering her best friend's baby boy in June of 2024 and injuring that baby's twin brother. And if Versie is convicted of murdering baby Leyon cats and hurting his brother, she could be sentenced to death. Recently, Nicole Verszie asked a judge to suppress statements that she made to detectives in which prosecutors say she admitted to hurting Leon. And according to prosecutors, Versie said she had a longtime compulsion, a need, a desire to harm children that went back to her own childhood. It's unbelievable. Criminologist Dr. Debbie Goodman will join me very shortly to discuss this claim. But first, I want to recap this incredibly disturbing case since it's been a while since we've discussed it. In June of 2024, Nicole Verszie, a PhD student in psychology, traveled from San Diego to Pittsburgh to visit her best friend who'd recently given birth to twins. A probable cause affidavit lays out what police claim happened back in June of 2024. That affidavit says that Versie called 911 on June 15th before midnight and said Leyon suffered a bump to the head after falling from a bassinet. The document said the baby was nonresponsive. Leon was rushed to the hospital and the affidavit said his parents had left Lyon in Nicole Vers's care after taking his twin brother to the hospital for an injury to his genitals which Versie had brought to their attention. Police said Leon suffered a severe skull fracture and multiple brain bleeds. The affidavit says Dr. Walford of the Child Advocacy Center informed Detective O'Neal that the injuries sustained by both John Doe and Leon Catz is consistent with having been sustained as a result of child abuse as these are inflicted injuries that are not natural and not accidental. Versie agreed to speak to police at the police department. The affidavit states Verszie was unable to provide any plausible explanation for the cause consistent with the extent of the injuries that Leon Catz sustained while in her care. Versie stated that she was with Savannah Roberts, Ethan Catz, and the twins on 6:15 of 2024. They went on an outing in the afternoon hours, and she was out by herself at a grocery store after that. Versie estimated that at approximately 1830 hours, the parents took the John Doe to the hospital for the injury to the genital area. Versie identified herself as the sole caretaker for Leyon cats while the parents and brother were at the hospital. Detectives said that Versie told them that Leon was fine after his parents left, that he had eaten, soiled two diapers, and was burped. The affidavit continued, "While Versie was in the kitchen, she heard Leon screaming. She found Leon lying on his left side on the floor and picked him up. She observed a large bump to the left side of Lyon's head. She contacted Lyon's parents and then called 911. Ethan Catz arrived back at the home near the same time that first responders arrived. Leon was transported to the hospital while Ethan and Verszie drove to the hospital separately. As for injuries sustained by John Doe, Versie stated that she observed the injury to Do's genital area first and alerted his parents. She also photographed the injury and sent it to Ethan Catz. She also stated that Do sustained a scratch to his face while she was placing him in the car seat and he flailed his arms. Leon died hours later at the hospital. It was Father's Day. The affidavit detailed the injuries that Leon's twin brother suffered. It reads, "It should be noted that your defiance spoke with Dr. Walford who stated that John Doe's injuries are as follows. Two scratches to the right cheek, one small scratch below the left side of the nose, one small scratch to the left cheek, two bruises below the belly button, bruising, swelling, and redness to the genital area, and scratches to the tip of the genitals. In addition, Dr. Wolford believed that all of Leyon's injuries were acute. An autopsy performed determined that Leyon died as the result of blunt force trauma. His death was ruled a homicide. His parents denied causing the injuries to Lyon or his twin brother. Prosecutors are pursuing the death penalty against Nicole Verszie, listing four aggravating factors. First, they say Versie committed the killing while in perpetration of a felony. Second, prosecutors say the offense was committed by means of torture. Third, prosecutors say they'll introduce evidence that Versie has a significant history of felony convictions involving the use or threat of violence to the person. And the fourth and final aggravating factor cited by prosecutors, the victim was younger than age 12. Now, these are all things that prosecutors would present in the sentencing phase of a trial if Versie was found guilty. Recently, a judge ruled that statements Nicole Verszie made to law enforcement the day that baby Leyon died would not be suppressed. Versie claimed she was coerced and had been at the police department for 13 hours. Those statements include Versie telling detectives that she dropped the baby hard on the floor a couple of times before he died. The Pittsburgh Tribune Reviews website reported that Versie told detectives something just came over me I couldn't control. I'm telling you this because I can't keep lying about it. The site said that Versie also told detectives, "I don't want to hurt anyone anymore. I know the best thing is for me to go away or maybe worse. And Versie, according to detectives, admitted to having a desire to harm children. From a very, very young age, I don't know what it is, but I always had this urge, almost like a compulsion I can't control, to hurt kids. In 2024, I spoke with Nicole Verszy's attorney, David Shrager, about how he planned to defend her. >> She is handling it as well as to be expected. I think that she's maintained a good mindset and has remained positive. She understands that the process is a lengthy one and that she will have her day in court. She will get to tell her side of the story. Uh she will get to share her truth, but [clears throat] that takes some time and that's difficult for people to deal with. It's hard to understand that our justice system works in in a way that it takes a long time to get to be able to the point where most of the people are expecting which is a trial. A trial happens at the end of a criminal case and that can be measured in years potentially. >> So to discuss this incredibly disturbing case, I want to bring in Dr. Debbie Goodman. She is a criminologist and uh Dr. Goodman, thank you so much for joining me. this case uh is so stunning to me and you know you you don't want to ever judge a book by its cover, right? But we have a psychology PhD student in clinical psychology. Um she looks like a doll, right? She she's like adorable. She she's going to be studying clinical psychology. The allegation is she goes to her best friend's home. She's upset that she feels like she was doing nanny work, I guess, and that she's like helping change diapers. I don't know what else you thought you were going to do when you go to visit your best friend and she has newborn twins. That's kind of what you do. You help out. But then she allegedly tells the cops, "I've had a compulsion since I was a child to harm children. I can't stop myself." What do you make of that? >> Certainly. Well, good morning and Janette and what a pleasure to join you on such a startling, shocking, sickening case. It's just beyond comprehension to think that someone who you just described and I agree with you. We can't judge the book by the cover, but what you judge and what we evaluate is the mindset. So thus far in the fact pattern I believe that this individual you know right down the list of firstdegree murder with there was a level of planning premeditation willful with malice. So it's indicative of some other high-profile cases that have been discussed on the network and in the media platforms of of those who harm children. We could take a look at Susan Smith and the death of her two children, Michael and Alex. We look toward Andrea Yates and the five children, four sons, one daughter. Lorie Valow Del and the death of Tyle and JJ. So when it comes to any level of mental health uh question and and that is the question here, you know, what level of mental health compromise, if any, did she actually have? But I think it's these other issues and Janette that will supersede whatever her defense comes in saying and I can assure you as a criminologist that any level and category of murder that we would discuss whether it's a singular homicide double quadruple um serial murder mass murder workplace school-based family there is a level of obsessive compulsivity to these individuals behaviors. So although we anticipate at the October trial, of course, her defense will raise some type of issue along these lines or intermittent anger disorder, there will be a variety of things stated, but I think that the composition of this jury will likely be individuals who are mothers, who are fathers, brothers, sisters, they have siblings, and it will be absolutely unconscionable to them that this individual could do what she did, killing little six-w weekek old Leon and harming, you know, the twin brother Ari. It's just beyond comprehension. >> But where where could she have developed if this is true? And I'm saying if it's true, because maybe after she's sitting in this interrogation room for hours and hours at the police department, maybe the wheels are turning. She's talked to her parents according to um all of the reporting on this case. Uh you know, her parents came in and they're like, "Honey, we're going to get through this. We love you." She got a defense attorney and then apparently she gets a defense attorney. She talks to a defense attorney and then the cops are like saying she says, "No, I just can't I can't do this anymore. I'm going to tell you what happened." And she after invoking her right to st remain silent then withdraws that and says, "I'm gonna tell you what happened." And she admits to shaking Leon and dropping him onto the floor until she hears a crack. And then she's like, "I I don't know what it is. Ever since I was a kid, I've had this compulsion. I can't I can't stop myself. I want to hurt other kids." And then she literally talks about how she's hurt other children. Um, according to, you know, the reporting from triblive.com, she she goes through these other instances where she's hurt kids like since she was a kid. So, wow. Like do you believe possibly that that is actually true? That she's had this like deepseated compulsion since she was a kid to do this or is she smart enough to lay the groundwork for some type of psychological defense um while she's sitting there in the interview room? >> I don't believe her engine. I I simply do not. I think I really don't. I don't I for me to believe this is valid and valuable and accurate. I'd need some actual documentation, proof, something from a psychologist, a psychiatrist. And here's why I don't believe her. Because if her best friend Savannah is asking her to babysit her children, doesn't a best friend know our deepest, darkest thoughts and issues and conduct? So, why would a mom of twin boys allow somebody that she knew potentially had this disorder even near her children, let alone to be unsupervised with them? What I really think and Janette, if we go down the list of evil for me, it's an acronym that would represent I think um Nicole was envious, the E for envious, V, the behavior is so vile. I, she had the intent to harm and L she has repeatedly lied. So once people start lying, I actually believe in criminology that that's their defense mechanism. You see, they know what they did. They know what they did was wrong, but they start out with the lie and then isn't it curious to us how midway she decides, oh, investigators, detectives, let me actually now tell you the truth. That's the part I believe what she actually did to harm little Leon and Ari. >> So you think that she possibly made up this childhood history of wanting to harm children? You think she made that up to possibly give herself some mitigation seeing that she was going to be probably charged with killing Leon? >> I think so. And Janette in in criminology we have two areas that are very important whether it's this crime or any crime dealing with murder we look at what's called the men's rhea that's the intent that's the criminal state of mind and then the second side of the coin is the actis rees that's the action itself so wherever this gray area let's call it would fall in obsessive compulsive conduct the desire to harm children again I don't see it at all as negating the fact pattern of the severity, the acute harm that she caused in the death of Leon and in the aggravated assault of Ari. >> I want to read a little bit more about what she told the cops um after she says, you know, I'll talk to you again after she invoked her right to counsel and then she's like, no, I can't do this anymore. I want to talk to you. And keep in mind, she's a PhD student, so she's not dumb. Um, she has some level of intelligence. Um, she says that she had a long history of depression, anxiety, and she had previously been treated for an eating disorder. She said when she was around seven, she locked a 2-year-old in a bathroom and pinched her until she cried. when she was 12 at a church camp. She said she dropped a toddler uh on a couch a couple of times, which, you know, that's a far cry from what is alleged to have happened to Leon. Uh when she was around seven uh in high school, she told the detective she babysat just one time and she said she put a hot mug on the baby's arm and pinched the child. I mean, this is all sounds super sadistic, kind of like bordering on sadistic behavior, getting some type of pleasure out of hurting somebody. Uh, and then in high uh I'm sorry, and then she said, "This is the first time this happened as an adult. There's some weird drive in me that wants to see kids in pain." Um, and then she said when she was hurting Leon, I felt remorseful when I was actually doing it. I was like watching myself. That was so mean of me. But she said it made her feel satisfied to cause him pain. Yikes. And then she said she was actually caring for him while she was causing him pain. So you think she's making all this up? Is there any way that she's legitimately describing a disorder of some sort? Could you literally care for somebody at the same time? like change their diapers and be nice to them while um you're changing like while you're causing them pain and and essentially murdering them. >> So everything you're describing and Janette that Nicole stated happened, we open any criminology textbook and what jumps right out at us is a category called hedenistic killer. So hedonism we know is all about pleasure and it's normal in terms of just our every daily lives and behaviors and lifestyle right we we gain pleasure with our family members and our colleagues with whom we interact at work and then we have our hobbies and behaviors and things we like to engage in. So now we shift gears slightly. Now we look at criminals and people who murder many of whom will derive pleasure while harming others. And once again, we go straight down that list. And that includes the serial murderer, the mass murderer, those who are harming children, those who are harming elders. Why? Because it speaks to something a little different. They're deriving pleasure, but there's, you know, what I refer to as CPA. There's also the control, the power, the authority that these individuals have over their vulnerable victims. So the hedonistic killer is actually very common at all age groups of criminals. I think that's who and what this individual is. >> She also sounded like she was mad and and this kind of makes me wonder like is she kind of like a spoiled princess? Like is she a spoiled brat? Because she's saying she was being put to nanny work and she didn't like that. I mean you're visiting your best friend who just had twins. I mean that's a, you know, she's your best friend and having twins, having a baby is a big deal. So maybe you are going to like travel there and help out. Like if your sister has a baby, you go and travel and you help out because it's like a very traumatic thing to the body to have babies. So like maybe she's just upset and felt like she shouldn't be having to take care of a baby. I mean, could that be just like really the root cause of this? >> Well, I definitely think it's a part of rather than a part from the dynamic here. But let's also just talk about forensic psychology for a moment, anette. And what do we know? We know that when crimes are based on the same gender, meaning if it's a male criminal and a male victim, female criminal, female victim, there are also other emotional elements here as to why people pick, if you will, select who they want in terms of victimology. And so I think it's quite likely and I'm sure it'll come out at trial. There must be some level of jealousy I believe that Nicole has towards Savannah. Maybe Savannah was very um you know successful in her personal life and lifestyle being married, having twins. At the moment, yes, as you mentioned at the intro, um Nicole was more on the cerebral side, perhaps intellectual, going through a PhD program, but from afar may have truly been envious of the best friend. And so, if we really believe this platform of [snorts] her desire to harm children, I must believe that Savannah would have known this being her very best friend. That's why I just don't think it exists. I think it's fabricated. I think it becomes a convenient crutch for the defense to come up with something in terms of how to possibly mitigate because we know the um the state is seeking the death penalty on this. >> They they definitely are and there is nobody more defenseless in this world than a baby. Uh just awful. This is an awful case, a horrific case. And you know the state I I just don't see a deal here. I don't see them doing a deal unless the unless the parents sign off on it and they just don't want to have like years and years of appeals. That's the only way I see this uh possibly happening. Uh because Nicole Verszie, according to the article, she apparently said to the cops, I I know I need to go away and possibly worse or possibly more. So, she it's almost like a recognition, some self-awareness that she she's got some bad stuff going on. Uh, Dr. Debbie Goodman, thank you so much for your time and your expertise. I appreciate it. >> My pleasure. Thank you so much. Engineet >> Nicole Verszie has pleaded not guilty to charges of criminal homicide and abuse charges that she faces. Her trial is scheduled to begin in October of 2026. >> Two Illinois 18-year-olds could face months behind bars after being charged with what's being called mob action. We'll talk about the legal definition of that in a minute. But it appears that not only these allegations, but some of this might have been recorded and maybe shared. April 23rd, Haley Ditzer and Olivia Brown were booked into the jail in Madison County, Illinois, which is in the southeast part of the state near St. Louis. And the teens are accused of targeting a local woman, luring her into a wooded area, and attacking her. and members of the community say that's not the only person they've allegedly beaten up. To talk about this, I want to bring in criminal defense attorney Andrew Baldwin. Andrew, so good to see you. Thanks for taking the time to come back here on Sidebar. >> Good to see you again, Jesse. So Andrew, according to the charging information, Ditler and Brown acting together allegedly dragged the victim into the woods, repeatedly punched and kicked her in the face, mouth, stomach, arms, legs. This is a, if true, a full-blown assault on her entire body. Certainly seems like the allegation would be it's premeditated. Um, what's just your initial reaction to an alleged crime like this? >> Well, as a defense lawyer, when you get uh somebody walking into your office that says, "My my daughter's been accused of this crime." You go through your thoughts as a defense lawyer, first and foremost, they're presumed innocent, and you're hoping that there's going to be some um lack of evidence or some some evidence that's helpful for the client. Then you also uh flip on your human being side, your your your parent, you're a parent uh uh and you start to think, my god, you know, what is what's going on here? If this is really if this really happened. And so those those things kind of conflict at times. And so just as a defense lawyer, if that's what you're asking, um you really have to kind of push that down, right? >> Uh those feelings as a parent and you got to say, let's look at the elements of the crime. Can we can we defeat this case? >> So, what might complicate or what makes this a little bit different now is that while Ditler and Brown, they only face charges right now in connection with that attack, that alleged attack, another teen has apparently come forward to say that she was also attacked by Ditler and Brown in a very similar manner. Evie Barren apparently posted videos of her alleged assault on social media after it appeared footage of the attack was shared on Snapchat by Haley Ditsler. In one of the videos, one of the suspects apparently places their phone on the ground, pointed it toward a basketball court. It's dark out there, but you can see the outline of someone seemingly dragging someone else into the frame. And you can hear as at least one of the suspects starts apparently assaulting Barren. And based on the footage that she shared, Barren doesn't appear to fight back and can be heard saying things like, "Okay, I'm sorry guys. Please stop." And it appears that Barren refers to both Haley and Olivia by anime. And after landing a few blows, the suspect, who we believe to be Olivia Brown, picks up the phone while it's still recording and appears to think the fight is over. But a person referred to in the video as Haley continues to cuss at Barren, and you can hear more blows landing. Barren's screams get louder and more intense, and Brown seems more and more concerned that someone might come to Barren's aid. >> No, Haley, we got it. We got it. >> Shut the up. Which one? >> I can't find me. No, we did it. >> You guys jumped me. You fight one of us. Oneonone. >> You fight one of us 101. I'll let you get your shoe on because I'm not going to go. >> No one go. I'm telling her go me. I can't. >> You can see me though. You can see me. Olivia, stop. No, you stop. So, the girl believed to be Olivia repeatedly tries to get Haley to leave where they're saying, "We made her scream. It's over." And as the two teens finally walked away, they could be heard telling Barren, or allegedly telling telling Barren to never disrespect either of them ever again. Okay, Andrew, first, let's talk about if this video is what it purports to be, can that be used as evidence in the other criminal case? >> That's a great question, Jesse. And in most situations, the answer would be no. Uh the the rule of evidence that usually um prevails is uh 404b and it does not allow a uh prosecutor to admit evidence of a prior bad act. However, uh under 404b, there are permitted uses when you can bring in that evidence. And one of those permitted uses is for MO or modus operendi when there is kind of a signature of the way that they do things. And that could fit the bill here. And uh that would be pretty devastating on the case uh with Miss Ditler and Miss Brown if if that were allowed to to come into evidence. >> And so in other words to establish a pattern a pattern of attack. But but I guess the question would be and just to be clear, >> you don't have to be charged with that evidence to come in. They don't have to be be convicted or charged. It could just be, you know, this Miss Baron's taking the stand saying this happened, playing the video. >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh it would be highly contentious in the courtroom. Uh in a pre-trial motion, you'd probably bring her in there and the judge would have to it be really factually based. Is this so similar? Is this so such a pattern that we can rely on it to not do what it's really intended to do? And that is to show that these girls are acting and uh with in that Miss Brown and Miss Ditler did exactly what they did previously. And that's the whole that's a forbidden inference that's not allowed. The 404B will allow it if a judge allows it. By the way, off topic, but another serious issue I want to talk about with you real quick. Debt. Debt doesn't just show up one day. It builds little by little. Credit cards, car loans, medical bills, and suddenly you're juggling payments. you're feeling stuck. Here's the good news. At the time of this recording, she has they haven't been charged with respect to Barren. My understanding is why do you think that might be? >> It's hard to know. In today's world, there's crazy things that happen on these uh especially with young people and you want to make sure that this wasn't contrived perhaps like is this everybody involved in a show. I know that sounds crazy that uh maybe Miss Barren is part of a crew of people that are trying to get likes on a on a Tik Tok page or something like that. Maybe that's what it is. I mean, prosecutors have to be very careful nowadays before they file anything involving u video on online, especially young people, because they have a tendency of uh doing things that we adults would not expect. Just what's your reaction to that video? Because the video evidence is so important. I mean, it so compelling for a jury and let's say they are charged in connection with that attack, that alleged attack. How do you argue against that? What do you say about a video like that? >> Well, life, as I often say, is uh crazy in other people's worlds. And like I said before, you don't know exactly what was going on. uh text contextually uh behind the scenes. Was this were these three girls involved with one? It doesn't seem that way. It seems like it's legit. So, as a defense lawyer, you're trying you're trying to find out is there more to the story here? So, you got some early decisions to make. Am I going to accept it for what it is and and uh go to the then go to the prosecutor and say, "Hey, let's let's work out a deal before this kind of gets out of control, or are you going to fight it?" Normally, I like to let the evidence come to me first before I start making decisions like that. I want to find out what they have and what they don't have. And I really don't want to find out from my client necessarily early on, like, tell me what happened. I want to wait until the evidence comes to me. But in a case like this, when there's going to be some publicity and the evidence is seemingly really awful video evidence, maybe you find out more quickly from your client, did this did this really happen? because if it did, I need to do some damage control and we need to get in there before, you know, Ditler. If I'm representing Ditler, then I want the the better deal first. And if I'm representing Brown, I want the better deal first. Let's get that best deal first. >> Now, uh Barren also shared a short clip of herself in her car after the alleged attack, showing a cut on her knee, makeup running down her face from crying. Take a look. >> Bro, I I don't know what to do, bro. crazy, bro. My whole head is like pounding. >> Now, Barren told First Alert 4 in St. Louis that did Ditsler and Brown they have perpetrated multiple attacks in Madison and St. Clair counties and that while they were all once friends, she distanced herself from the two after they started allegedly targeting people. Now, Andrew, generally speaking, are we seeing a lot of youth violence cases like these allegations? Have you been covering them? Are are you seeing an uptick in them at all? >> Big time. I mean, it's I I I've done this for 30 plus years now and I've not ever seen the amount of youth on youth violence. Maybe it was always going on and they just didn't videotape it and and throw it on uh YouTube or whatever and therefore it it has always gone on, but uh that's not what I think. I think uh it's kind of driven by social media because again even this victim uh if if if she is a victim Barren >> she goes on television or on she goes on uh she's in her car and she Why are you you just got beat up. Why are you doing that? It's it's a weird there's kind of a weird sickness going on with the youth. >> Well, you could say she's trying to bring awareness to this. I mean, she spoke with uh Five on your side telling the outlet that she'd been hanging out with friends when she saw a bunch of boys in ski mask sneaking up to their car. She says she saw Brown and Ditler, drove away, and [clears throat] the next day she claims her former friends texted her saying they wanted to apologize, lured her out to the spot where the attack allegedly happened. So, it seems to me the ar the counter-argument to that would be Andrew, she's trying to bring awareness to what happened or allegedly happened to her. >> Yeah, I think going to uh news media is one thing, but going on uh your Facebook page and posting about it is >> is something different. I mean, now we're not talking about the law, we're just talking about society. I just find it to be an odd thing to do and it makes her less appealing as a as a victim as well and maybe as a defense lawyer I could could glom on to that a little bit somehow. >> Now, uh Baron's mother, Lara McCord, told First Alert 4, quote, "She was scraped up like road rash on her leg and her back. She had bruises on her back. She had a swollen eye. It was bloodshot, a bruise on her other her lip was busted a little, but the most concerning thing is that she had a concussion. So I imagine um Andrew that is that a medical conclusion from medical reports? Um it's important for this to be documented. Correct. >> Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean later on whether it's an element of the crime might require uh a definition that includes concussion or something like that. So yeah, you or broken bones or scrapes or pain. So you definitely want to get to a hospital and get that. If you're a prosecutor, you want to get those records. Now I want to talk about what they're facing. So with that separate attack regarding that woman uh that alleged uh attack Brown and Ditler, they face a charge of mob action. So according to the Illinois criminal statute, it says a person commits mob action when he or she engages in the knowing or reckless use of force or violence disturbing the public peace by two or more persons acting together and without authority of law. And the teens could face between 1 and 3 years in prison if they're convicted of it. That's our understanding. Never seen a charge like that. Mob action. >> Yeah, mob action. When I saw that, uh, it it's kind of a funny it's kind of a funny title for a crime. And it's not I thought, well, maybe this is social mediadriven legislation that caused that. But it's been around since the 19 at least since the 1990s. I was going through some of the case law that details u you know what it is and what it what it isn't according to the court of appeals in Illinois and no it's been around a while and um uh you know there's been some overturned uh convictions of mob action because it it's there's a specific intent of why that legislation exists >> is that and I imagine one of the areas that a defense attorney could hone in on is acting together in concert and I wonder that could be an area where you say, "Well, wait a minute. I wasn't on board with that. I just was watching." I mean, right. Talk to me about what that what that issue could be. >> Yeah, you nailed it. I mean, one of the cases that I read talked about it was uh two groups of people, two two guys were in a fight and then they each had a buddy standing next to them and then those two guys got in a fight over the other two fighting. And so it was uh two groups of people. uh it it seemingly met the definition under the statute but then in the end the court of appeal there was a conviction and then the court of appeals said no that's two different things uh they were not acting in concert on the same thing. So with Miss Ditler and Miss Brown, I mean, you know, it it's it could be fact intensive. It seems kind of self-explanatory. These these girls worked in concert together, lured this uh lured her into the woods. But what happens if one is arguing about, you know, you you said this about you dissed my boyfriend, and the other one is like, well, in third grade you did this to me, and they're arguing about two different things. Can you argue that that that's not acting in concert? They're actually arguing about two different things. I know it seems, you know, for for non- lawyers, they may think, well, that's just a silly argument, but those are the types of things that that might win the day, might get the charges even dismissed. >> If they are convicted of this, what what do you imagine the punishment could be? >> Well, like you said, I I one to three years is what they're facing. They're 18 years old. You know, I looked at their mug shot and if I were a prosecutor, I would take that mug shot and they seemed, you know, you don't want to read too much into a mug shot, but I'm sitting here looking at it. They seem very non-care. They they seem like they just don't care. They're smiling. They're smirking almost. You can almost read into it like, "Oh, we're going to get some good clicks on this or something." I mean, and um if I were a judge and I and I saw that those mug shots and if the girls demeanor is consistent with that at sentencing, >> I got to tell you as a judge, I might say this is an important time in their life. They're 18 years old. They're not they're they're doing this other places. Perhaps they need to spend a little time in jail and really think this through. And then they need to get some counseling and things like that. >> You know, when they're 18, it's it and they don't have a prior criminal history. If that is the case, it's easy to think uh let's slap them on the wrist and let them go on their way maybe with some counseling, but I I don't know if that is going to help them as human beings on their uh the road that they travel. >> Now, Baron's told First Alert 4, they don't care and I feel like they would do it again if they hadn't gotten caught. They would still be out here doing it and still be trying to find me. And she says she's now filed a restraining order against Brown and Ditsler. We checked Madison County court records and found that there are emergency no contact orders in place with a hearing scheduled for later this month. I mean, Andrew, um something to point out about this is we did reach out uh to Barren and her mom, Larara McCord. Uh they declined to speak with us now that the investigation is ongoing, but McCord did post an update on Facebook saying, "Hello everyone. I am Eevee Barren's mom. Mom, I'm asking everyone to please stop threatening Haley Ditsler's and Olivia Brown's family. They are getting death threats. Please just let the justice system handle this. Thank you everyone. And look, you certainly don't want to see reciprocal violence or some sort of revenge attack or anything like that. We've seen in the past that sometimes people can have serious bravado behind a screen that might get them in trouble in real life, but that's a serious problem and and it's the idea of the no contact order. Let's first start there. Um what's the purpose of it? How effective is it? And also, do you see the concern about posting so much on this on social media? >> Yeah, the the protective order um some people say it's only as good as the, you know, as a piece of paper. You can walk right through that protective order if you really want to. I think most of the time it does its job. The purpose of it, of course, is uh to to prevent uh Ditler and Brown from u going after uh the victim again, the the alleged victim again. and uh because if they do, they face new consequences. They first of all, they they might u revoke their bond and they just stay in jail during the entirety of the case. So, I I think it can be it's really the only thing that you can do. And as far as uh the other uh thing you're talking about there, Jesse, which is um I see this all the time where the victim's uh family uh does come out and say, "Hey, take it easy on the other side," which is a nice thing society to see >> that the mom is doing that. I think it's a really terrific uh way to operate. Um and uh so I I appreciate that. Just even as a defense lawyer, I can say that's that's a great thing to do, Mom. Way to go. And speaking of this, by the way, so Barren herself apparently posted about her own past conduct a few days after the alleged attack, saying in part, "Everyone I have fought in my life, I've made up with and are my friends now. For people to blame me for this is so hurtful. I have got with wrong crowds before and been in bad situations. Everyone makes mistakes. I would never hurt someone how these girls hurt me. I would never wish this on anyone." And she later posted an update writing, "My fight videos are going to come out, of course. I've never hurt someone as bad as these girls hurt people. Again, I am friends with the girls I fought. People are going to come at me and make up false things. I really hate it. I am not the same as Haley and Olivia. I've had a fight phase, but I've never been sick like them. I would never hurt someone like them. This hurts my mental health and I cannot take it. Andrew, what do you make of that? >> Wow. I'm salivating as a defense lawyer right now listening to that because now the game changes a little bit. If if what she's doing is preemptively uh telling the world like, "Hey, there's going to be some fight videos of where I've been the aggressor and I've beat up some people." Now you get into self-defense. Now you get into other possible defenses out there and now the 404B that I talked about earlier may turn the tables on Barren where it's like where >> meaning if she testifies this could come against her. >> Oh, absolutely. I mean I I would be absolutely fighting for that. uh if especially if they are charged with Ditler and Brown are charged with crimes against her, that's absolutely going to be grounds uh for uh fighting over whether those videos come in. And now you're talking about an entirely different ballgame as a defense lawyer. You you you don't fear the video as much because there's other video that they have to fear and then that becomes a tool for plea negotiations. By the way, in a motion that was uh filed with the court, prosecutors requested special bail conditions to prevent the suspects from having any contact with the other girl that they allegedly attacked. The motion states, "The defendant has previously threatened or perpetrated physical abuse toward the victim in this matter. On information and belief, the defendant presents a continued threat to the victim and the defendant may harm, harass, or interfere with the personal liberty of the victim during the pendency of this action." Now, the court records indicate that the judge signed off on standard and additional pre-trial release rules, but it's unclear if the defendants were required to post any sort of cash bond before they released. Andrew, you have thoughts on this? >> Well, it's probably more talking about uh a protective order of of the court's uh own choosing versus a a separate protective order in a in a separate action. the judge as a condition of bond can say, "Hey, you cannot be hanging around those girls. You can't talk about them on social media. Your friends can't go harass those girls. If you do any of that stuff, you're going back to jail. That's your condition of bond." And that is probably what that's talked being talked about. They have a right to a bond, a constitutional right to a bond. And uh but if they are released and they get in contact, if the judge says you cannot get in contact, that that means they'll get thrown right back in jail. >> Yeah. By the way, they have a uh both the Ditler and Brown, they have a uh preliminary hearing on May 16th. What can we expect from a preliminary hearing? >> Uh usually those are are a nothing burger. There's not a whole lot going on. It's hey, when when are we going to get our trial date? Is there anything I as a judge can do for you to to uh expedite discovery? Uh things like that. Um, it might be the judge taking an opportunity to to remind Ditler and Brown that they are not allowed to have any communication uh with uh the alleged victim and and that kind of thing. So, it's it's a lot of housekeeping. >> Oh, I thought it was, you know, they present enough evidence to move forward. It's almost like, you know, what prosecution what do you have? Is there probable cause? Would I be right about that? >> Well, this is where I'm sorry to interrupt, Jesse. Yeah, you might be right on that. Um, I'm not an Illinois. I'm in I'm next door in Indiana. >> Sure. >> In Indiana, that's what a pre-trial hearing is. In Illinois, that might be that might be something uh a little bit more um adventurous than what we do in Indiana. >> Well, do in Indiana, are there preliminary hearings where the prosecution has to put forward evidence to establish probable cause? Because I' i've spoken to defense attorneys before who say we kind of like it. You know, kind of gives us a view about what the prosecution has, where they're going. There are other defendants who wave a preliminary hearing. Uh talk to us about that. Yeah, in Indiana, we we charge by information, meaning um it's a piece of paper sworn by the prosecution that all these facts are true um as detailed by the police officer, and then a judge looks at it and if it meets the definition or the elements are met through the through the um the information, the probable cause affidavit, then the judge signs off on it. In Ohio, where I I I went to law school, uh it's different. And it's more like what you're talking about where there's a an a hearing and they bring in law enforcement and you that's really in Ohio, that's really your only opportunity to cross-examine the law enforcement officer because they're not going to talk to you afterwards in Ohio. In Indiana, we have depositions that we can conduct. And we're one of the the few states that does that, but they don't do that in Ohio. I don't think they do that in Illinois. So yeah, if you're a defense lawyer, you do I'm guessing you never want to wave an initial hearing on a on a case like this, especially you want to get as much information on the record so that later on at trial, if there is a trial, you can impeach the witness with their prior testimony. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And and as they should, that's their uh that's a great mechanism to uh cast doubt on the prosecution's case. Uh Andrew Baldwin, great seeing you. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about the case. >> Thank you, Jesse. A horrific murder out of Indiana when a young mother is found shot in the head. And the father of one of her children is charged with the gruesome murder. Clearly, this is a case where he [music] knew exactly what he was doing. He planned it out. He thought it out. >> On Saturday, August 10th, 25-year-old Caitlyn Lee was making a Tik Tok video with a friend inside her apartment. According to police, suddenly she heard a bang on the [music] window. That banging allegedly came from Caitlyn's ex-boyfriend, Joshua Thompson, who she shares a one-year-old son with. But what started as making a fun TikTok with a friend would turn into a deadly tragedy. According to court filings, when Caitlyn saw Thompson, she asked, "What are you doing here?" But her friend told investigators in the midst of that question. That's when she noticed the man who was identified as Thompson aiming a gun at the window. He allegedly fired off two to three shots, which hit Caitlyn. Court documents would reveal more horrific details. According to the filing, the murder was captured on the Tik Tok video. Investigators say when they reviewed the video, it showed Caitlyn and her friend laughing and lip-syncing to a song before the fatal shooting. Police say when Caitlyn was hit, her body fell out of view and smoke was hanging in the room before the video shut off. After the shooting, Thompson fled but left the gun on the ground outside the window. Police say after the murder, Thompson called his brother crying and distraught and confessed that he shot Caitlyn in the head, killing her. Thompson's brother reportedly told him to call police and tell them what happened. Thompson revealed to authorities he was in the area for about half an hour before walking to the back of the window and looking inside. He said he spotted his ex-girlfriend by looking through a gap in the blinds at the bottom of the kitchen window and seeing both Caitlyn and her friend dancing. Police say Thompson confessed to knocking on the window with the barrel of the gun, causing it to break, and shooting Caitlyn. And new details just released would reveal more insight into how and why this shocking murder occurred. When speaking to authorities, Thompson reportedly admitted to driving to Caitlyn's friend's apartment because he wanted to see if she was there with other men. Caitlyn's friend who witnessed the murder told officers Thompson and Caitlyn had a toxic relationship and were always at odds with each other. Her friend said Caitlyn told her at one point if she were ever found dead, it would be Thompson who killed her. According to a report by WAVE, Caitlyn's aunt described how her niece had moved three times in the last four months. All in efforts to stay away from Thompson after their relationship ended violently. Caitlyn's aunt described to the outlet that in April of this year, Thompson allegedly beat Caitlyn to the point she was black and blue. And Thompson was previously arrested for the beating. That's when officials issued the emergency protective order. Thompson allegedly acknowledged to police that he was aware of the emergency protective order against him, but chose instead to violate the order. Well, here to join me to discuss more about this case is therapist, trauma expert, and the author of Stolen Childhoods. That's Sheri Botwin. Now, Sher, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. This is truly a horrific case. The victim, Caitlyn Lee, had an active no contact order with the defendant. And even despite that, he found her at her friend's house while she was having a good time. She was making a Tik Tok video. She was dancing and lip-syncing with her friend and then he shot at her and killed her. What went through your mind when you were learning about this case? One of the first things I thought about is even when there's a no contact order, unless there's somebody following the perpetrator around 24 hours a day, he can at any point find her. Especially now, there's so much technology where you can be stalked and not even know that someone is following you. So, you know, again, what I thought about was there's all these laws that we have to try to protect people, especially in situations where there's domestic violence, but it's almost impossible in cases that involve intimate partner domestic violence, which is what I think this is, to really protect the the victim in that case. And again, like you said, she was just going about her day, having a good time, and she lost her life because he was able to access her even with the no contact order. And what stuck out to me was Thompson went over there with a weapon. He spied on Caitlyn through a window. So, it doesn't seem like this was a heat of passion or anything. To me, it seemed like a premeditated murder. What are your thoughts? I mean, I think 100% premeditated. He even talked about that when he, you know, because he reported himself basically. He talked about how he went over, you know, sort of like what he was thinking before. And again, in situations where there's so much emotional volatility, when there's domestic violence and it's partner relationship abuse, all that, whatever he's feeling, whether it's rage, jealousy, um, spite, if he's an unwell person and he is determined to do what he can to make that person go away, he's going to be able to do that unless he tells someone he's having these thoughts. thoughts and that that person can then help him not act on them. But clearly, this is a case where he knew exactly what he was doing. He planned it out. He thought it out. And now he's going to lose the rest of his life behind bars. And now there's three children that are going to be without their mom. Um, and how do you explain that to the children that this person, your father, did this to your mother? It's just it makes me think about the you know the world that we live in and these types of cases are really the hardest to prevent homicides when there's so much pathology because it happens behind closed doors and unless again he was put behind bars there was no other way to really stop him if he was planning to end her life. And another thing that stuck out to me is that an aunt had told a local media outlet that back in April that Thompson allegedly beat um Caitlyn Lee to the point where she was black and blue all over. He was in county jail and then he got out. What are your thoughts about how the court systems kind of in your opinion do you feel like they do a lot to protect victims of domestic violence and of domestic abuse? I mean, I think of all the things in our country, one area that we really need a lot of work in is protecting victims, especially when it is in the court system. If he's behind bars, why did they let him out? What What did he say that made people think that he was not going to be a danger to her or to other people? And I think one of the issues with the court system is they're not really educated about domestic violence. Like they're not required to take hours and hours of training. And I think that that's something that we need to work on. And I know every state is different. Some states have more training than others. But my first thought when I read that was, why did they let him out of prison? He clearly beat this woman nearly to death and he was let free. It almost, you know, again, it invokes a lot of anger in me too because, you know, we're always so focused on the perpetrator, but what about the victim? You know, like she was already clearly very hurt by this person. when she finds out that he's been let out of jail, one of the things that I read about her was she was constantly moving from place to place trying to hide from this person. Why should she have to live her last days of her life in hiding? She didn't do anything wrong. And where is the protection for the victim? And where's the protection for the perpetrator? So, if you're going to let him out of prison or let him out of jail in the court system, why isn't there sort of like an in between place that we can have that person go where he's required to undergo treatment and be in a facility where there's some type of monitoring so that people can also watch him because in a way the system let him down too because they didn't they did not really react in a way that was going to keep him out of prison for the rest of his life. And the victim, Caitlyn Lee, she had a very ominous message for her friend who was a witness to this shooting, and that was that if anything were to happen to me, if I were to end up dead, that Joshua Thompson did this, that he did this. What are your thoughts on that message that, you know, tragically became a true statement? I mean, I think she knew. She sounds like she was a young but very smart woman who knew that this was a very dangerous man. And sometimes, again, when people are in relationships where there's abuse and it's happening behind closed doors, it's happening between partners, it's not uncommon for them to know at any point their life could end. Because I think what she's saying, even with what she tried to do to protect herself, she's saying, "I know that this person wants me dead." And it's almost like she's preparing for her death. Which again seems just so sad and unfair because if he was that dangerous of a man, why was he let out of jail? And I think she probably knew as soon as he was let out of jail, he's going to retaliate. And when when there's abuse, every episode gets worse and worse. So he he beat her very badly. She knew on some level, I think, that the next thing that's going to happen is he's going to take my life. So I think she's she advocating for herself and saying, "This is just the truth in my situation." It's it's so sad. And kind of going back to how domestic violence and domestic situations can turn into these very tragic and fatal tragedies at um sometimes what are your thoughts on just the overall trajectory from this case? You know, they maybe at one point were in a loving relationship, they had a child together, but then there had to have been some point where it turned violent, it turned abusive. She did everything right by all accounts. You know, we always ask um victims in these types of situations, why did you stay? Why did you stay? But she left. She left. She filed. She had a no contact order in place that he clearly had violated to the point where he allegedly murdered um the mother of his child. But what are your thoughts on kind of that trajectory and how these type of events can occur um in these types of cases? Usually in cases of domestic violence, it can take the person who's being abused seven times to actually fully leave the relationship to make a report. Like you said, she did what she needed to do. She she had that no contact order. She clearly told people. So this is a case that should not be because again like unlike some other people survivors when they they can't leave it's not just that they're not leaving they're not telling anyone. So it's very it's disheartening and discouraging to hear that this is the ending of this story. The way I think about it when I, you know, read about the case and the state that it takes place and I think I hope that if anything comes out of this case that the state or other states who are trying to learn more about domestic violence and the danger behind that that they will use this case and say, "What did we do? Where did where did we go wrong here? What did we miss? What are we going to do different next time to make sure if we're going to let the perpetrator out of jail? How are we going to make sure that we're looking out for any of the victims, whether it was the children, the wife, or even her family? What are we going to do to make sure this does not happen again? Because again, this is this is a case that we could learn something from once we get past the horror and the heartbreak. All right, Sher Botwin, I really appreciate your time to discuss this case today. Before we sign you off, is there any final thoughts you had that you would like to share? I mean, the only other thing I want to share is just to keep in mind again with domestic violence, it's one of the hardest type of cases to really intervene and prevent things like this happening because most often it all happens behind closed doors. So, what I want to say, if you're out there and you're in a situation where you're not safe, do your best to try and let somebody know. Don't do this by yourself. And just know again that you're not at fault for something that somebody else is doing to you. I really just want to encourage people to not be silent and to try to take all that shame and blame you feel on yourself and know that there's somebody out there that could probably help you if you let them know that there's something wrong. >> All right, Sher Botwin, thank you again so much for taking time out of your day to interview with me about um this story. I really appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. [snorts] >> Joshua Thompson has been charged with the murder of Caitlyn Lee. He's currently behind bars in the Floyd County Jail, held on no bond until his trial, which is slated for March, but is due in court again on September 9th. According to a GoFundMe page, Caitlyn [music] Lee will be laid to rest on Thursday, August 15th.