So, I'm not going to get into that. >> So, you don't No, no, no, no. That's the moment. >> You don't have any license plates on your vehicle. >> I do have a I have a private I don't need a license plate. >> You need a license plate not bought from eBay. >> You don't have no jurisdiction over me. You are on my earth. And if I decide to do something about it, I can right now. >> What you see here is a guy. [music] It's got a screw loose, but we tightened it up for you. >> We are back with sovereign [music] citizens. Those interesting individuals who seem to believe the law doesn't apply to them. Well, what happens when it does? These are some memorable [music] sovereign citizen arrests. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Today we are talking [music] about once again sovereign citizens. Now, you'll likely remember one of the most famous cases that we covered here at Law and Crime Concerned, a sovereign citizen, Derell Brooks Jr. Now, remember, he was the man who drove an SUV into a Christmas parade in Wisconsin and then insisted on representing himself for the weeksl long trial. He was found guilty of all charges, sentenced to hundreds of years in prison, uh, which he deserved because the evidence was absolutely horrific and damning against him. But moving on, the sovereign citizen movement is a loose way of referring to a group of people who believe for whatever reason the US laws do not apply to them. One way we've seen this is the idea that the US Constitution was changed from its original form. So the laws based on it are null and void. Basic idea is that there is a conspiracy of foot, that the government is illegitimate, that they don't have authority over sovereign citizens. And we have seen this take the form of various justifications and legal arguments. We did a sidebar about sovereign citizens in court, but it is not just courtrooms where sovereign citizens think the laws do not apply to them. No, it is also out on the open road, too. As the sovereign citizen movement has grown, law enforcement has had to deal with more stops like the ones we're about to get into. So, with that, we're going to dive into our first body cam video, which manages to cover a lot of the or most of the common sovereign citizen beliefs. And one thing to note as as we go through these videos, sometimes the suspects don't outright identify themselves as sovereign citizens, but they tend to use language and terms that are consistent with that ideology. So, just keep that in mind as we go through all of this. But now talking sovereign citizens, one outset of that are the Moors. And they believe that in the 1700s, the United States and Morocco signed a treaty that grants certain people seemingly immunity. So with that, let's turn to our first case. It is March of 2023 in Berea, Ohio. An officer has pulled over this van because the license plate on the back just says private. >> Hello. >> Hello. How are we doing? I'm officer Douglas, Korea, police. The reason for the stop is you don't have a tag on your vehicle, >> right? It's not I don't I don't contract with the state of Ohio. >> Okay. >> Um I'm a private national. >> Okay. So you're is sovereign citizen thing. >> Well, no, it's not a sovereign citizen. >> Are you Moorish? >> Yes, I am. >> Okay. All do you have your travel document or what do you have? >> Okay. Where do you stay at? >> Um >> in >> No, I don't. >> Okay. What's your current address? Um, I don't really I do the mile in Berea at >> Okay. Do you have anything with the VIN on the vehicle? >> No, just >> no registration or anything like that? >> No, I don't. >> Okay. >> I do have my uh all my information right here. >> Okay. Do you mind if I see that? >> Yes. >> And I also have my Morris. Well, it's it should be right there. All right. >> Yeah, it's all right. >> Have you ever had a Ohio ID before? >> I don't I don't contract with the state of Ohio. >> So, have you ever had an Ohio before? >> No, I don't contract with it. >> Okay. All right. You want >> 16006 to 1640? Good. Yeah, this is a sovereign citizen. I don't know if you want to head up here. I'm sure they're going to request a boss at some point. >> When the officer goes back to his squad car, you can catch a glimpse of what her seemingly her Moorish government ID card looks like and he tries to use the address on that card to find out more about this driver. The woman has some paperwork that she believes might help. >> Yes, ma'am. There's also my right to travel that's also notorized and and um it's notorized and expiled with the state of Ohio. >> Okay. >> It's an affidavit of my right to travel. >> What is your first name? Is it >> Assada? >> Okay. And then your last name is Bae. >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. You said 223 Run Street. >> That's my address on there. You can't just take my You take that out of your pocket. >> I'm not taking I'm just holding it so my hands are free. That's it. >> Oh, okay. All right. So, and I and I'm in and I'm on my way somewhere. That's very important. Okay. >> And you kind of holding me up. And I also do have a fee schedule as well. >> A fee schedule. >> Yes. Schedule. >> I don't I don't know what that is. >> It's a fee schedule for if I'm bothered in my private mode of travel. So, this is a notice of intent fee schedule. So, this is for any and everything that you may have going to pull me over for or anything that you may keep me on the side of the road for. >> Call a fee schedule. >> Yes. So, there's a fee schedule >> here. Can I take a look at the first Oh, sorry. The first one on the fee schedule. Yeah. >> Okay. All right. Well, just hang tight. Okay. >> Well, listen. Can I have my ID back so I >> Yeah, you're welcome. >> So, I can go. >> You're not free to leave. >> Why? >> Cuz you're being detained. detained. >> Yeah, it's a traffic stop. You're detained. You're not on handcuffs or anything like that, but >> this is unlawful detainment. It >> is not. I know you believe it is, but I' i've done this plenty of times. Okay. >> Okay. Well, I also have a right to travel >> in my private transportation. >> It's my private mode of transportation. >> May I see that? Here. You want to trade? I'll give you this back. >> No, you cannot. >> Oh, okay. All right. Well, just like I said, you're not free to go. Okay. So, just hang out for one second. All right. What's up, Chief? sovereign citizen, >> Moorish American. >> I think I got a real info off a paper that she showed me. She has a fee schedule for any time she's stopped by law enforcement and bothered. Yeah. Wherever you want to chill across, so we should charge her every time or she charges us. >> She charges us. >> Interesting. I just hope she has a license or something valid. I'm sure she does. >> She doesn't. She just has no business with the state of Ohio, but she has a allegedly an affidavit signed by the state of Ohio saying that she's allowed to travel. >> Did she show it to you? >> I mean, yeah, kind of. >> Who made it? I know. We got like four details, so this probably looks bad. I was going to keep going, but nobody else got here, so I'm like, well, I don't want sitting here. >> I just figured I' i've dealt with sovereign citizens before, >> right? >> And that's what I asked her. I was like, are you Moish American? The officer is able to confirm that the driver used to go by the name Dominique Camel. And now that he has her name, his computer starts sending alerts. >> Suspended license. >> Suspended license. >> You still got to identify herself is the problem. And that's where we're that's where the hook will be. That's usually where these things go south. >> Yeah. Which I mean, we dealt with in Cleveland. Usually everyone's fine until they have the automatic fingerprint at county. >> Yeah. So they would not identify and then we get down there and it would read the fingerprints and give us their name. >> I'm sure has that. >> But I mean that's it's such a like >> and that's the problem. So it's going to be fun. >> Just give me like I just Yeah. Okay. For who you are as easy as possible. Right. >> All right, ma'am. You said I'm sorry. >> And is that a YA? Okay. All right. What was your name before? It was bae. >> My name is Assatada. Lstar Bay. That's all they The old name does not matter. >> So, this is this is my name. >> This is my name and this is this is filed with the Morris National Network. >> But that's not the state of Ohio. It's not law enforcement. didn't I'm I'm talking about Supreme Court law. I'm not talking about state of Ohio Supreme Court law. >> I am a Morris national and this is my travel card. I went through all the proper steps to get my travel card. I went through all the proper steps to put everybody on notice and this is what it is. >> So that's not a driver's license. Okay. >> It it is my right to I don't have a driver's license because I do not contract with the state of Ohio for a driver's license. I do have a right to travel in my private mode of travel and this is my private mode of travel. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just letting you know I have a right to be private. I live in the private and this is how I conduct my affairs. I don't contract with the state of Ohio with the driver's license. I don't contract with the state of Ohio for anything. I have a right to contract how I want because I live in the private. This is my travel card and this is my Moorish American national name. So you don't drive on any public streets or anything like that? >> I'm not I'm not conducting commerce. This is a pro. I'm not for hire. I'm not for any of that. So I'm not conducting commerce on any public highways. I'm not doing any type of uh business. I'm going from point A to point B in my private mo mode of travel. And I'm not conducting any type of business. I'm not conducting any commerce that would need me to have a driver's license. And I have not committed a crime. >> You have committed a crime? I have not committed a crime. >> You don't have any license plates on your vehicle. >> I do have a I have a private I don't need a license plate. >> You need a license plate not bought from eBay on your vehicle. You need to be registered. >> Oh, no. This came from the Morris National Network when it came with my ID. It's a private what they have on eBay is not my business. It's not my concern. But this is a private vehicle. I'm not for hire. I'm not for contract. And I'm not conducting any type of commerce, sir. >> Okay. I understand that you fully believe in all this. Okay. And I respect I know. I know. And it's not what I believe in. It's what I know. I I know. I know that the Supreme Court law states that I have a right to travel just like I'm traveling. Supreme Court law says that. Not me. I didn't say it. I didn't make it up. This is Supreme Court law. I have it right here in my thing. It's Supreme Court law. It's not something that I made up. It's just Supreme Court law. >> Okay. And I fully understand that you believe that. Okay. No, I what I believe. IT'S WHAT THE SUPREME COURT LAW STATES. >> MA'AM, I'm telling you. >> Okay. Could you call your sergeant, please? >> I am. >> I'm the chief of police. >> Okay. Well, are you the sergeant? >> I'm the chief of police. I'll find you. I'm the head of the agency. >> Okay. Where's the sergeant? >> I I would be above the Okay. Well, >> so that's why I came over here to try and I want to I think as easy as possible. >> Yeah, that's why we're pretty involved. That's why I thought I'm going to come over here. I'm have a conversation with you. >> Okay. >> I'm a student of this. I I'd like to hear this talk. >> Okay. >> Rumor at though, >> right? But I'm not conducting commerce. I >> I have it right here. I've seen it. Unfortunately, that's not a context of the law. >> While this spirited debate continues, the officer jotss down the car's VIN. >> And that's You don't have a right to do that. >> To do what? >> To write anything down that has anything to do with my vehicle. >> Okay. No, you don't. >> I know my rights. >> You know that. >> Okay. And I also know my right. You guys are policy enforcement. You guys are Okay. But you guys are You guys are a public servant. You're a public servant. We're here to serve the public. >> I'm not I didn't call you. I didn't ask you to have your lights on behind me. You're supposed to use your lights in a state of emergency. This is not an emergency. Well, why can't you accept my national ID and keep me let me go? because it was not issued by recognized government. >> But this is we are our own government. We have our own Morris national government. Yes, we do. Okay. >> But it's not recognized by the state of Ohio or the United States government. >> It is recognized by It is recogn It's definitely recognized by the Department of Justice. >> Well, it's we No, no, no, no, no, no. We have a right here. We have a Department of Justice and it's all on the back. Would you like to read it? >> Who uh issued that to you? Morish. >> Yes, the government. The Morish national government. >> What? Department of Justice. >> The Department of Justice. We are trying to department. >> We get briefs. We know like countering. We try to have the best possible way as much as possible. >> So, I guess with this officer, he's these if you can figure for who you are and we know who you are. >> I just told you who I was. >> What? And that's why he asked you if you had a previous name that night. You didn't change your names all the time. Well, what what difference does my previous thing make? >> Then if we know who you are, then we feel comfortable saying, "Okay, that person's just fine. They're not a murderer. They didn't kill somebody." >> No, I'm not a murderer. >> I'm not saying you are, but I'm giving you a very extreme example. Why is it happening? >> I'm just a mother. I'm a mother of my kids and and you're kind of interrupting what I apologize. So, if you give us a measure of cooperation, >> I just cooperated. This is not the first time >> I have and I've never had any issues like I do in Berea. >> I have the worst issues with it. It's the Berea Police Department. I feel like at this point it's like a harassment. >> No, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about the the people that work for you or under you. At this point, I feel like it's harassment. I don't know if it's because the color of my skin. I don't know if it's because I choose to live in the private because I have a choice to live in the private. >> I respect you, you know. That's why >> right I'm just trying to we can do our business then we can let you go about your business. >> I'm I I mean I'm going to understand what else you >> Well, we need to verify who you are. >> If you don't do that then we are going to take you to >> So you're threatening to take me to jail. for a non for a nonviolent crime for a crime that hasn't been dimmitted and committed >> because I do have a fee schedule here >> and my fee schedule definitely >> Okay, you can make those claims after the fact, but I don't want to get there. >> Okay, >> hold on. Where's unlawful detainment or detainment? law from this payment because there's Oh, is traffic citation 75,000 traveling issues your speed requirement. >> Excuse me. >> Would you rather just have us issue a traffic citation? If you know who you are, we'll issue your transportation. Send your way and you can go about trying to make a claim for that. >> A claim for what? >> For us is >> Would you like to read this? This is >> We're We're past that now. I told you where we're at at this point. I'm just asking for some cooperation at this point. I'm giving you cooperation, >> but you're not. You You're You're giving me a lot of of of the Morris stuff, which I I totally I respect it. I believe I love it. I said, I'm a student of people and humanity, and that's why I'm trying to have this conversation with you. >> But you're not really working with me at all. >> Okay. >> So, I told you what the what the response is going to be. You know, >> I don't I don't want to do that's the last thing I want. >> Mhm. >> You seem like a very nice person. You're a mother of six. I don't want to you. >> I don't. >> His name is Chief. >> What's that? >> Officer Douglas. >> Officer Douglas. >> Oh, I am. I'm going to definitely file a lawsuit. Okay. >> Okay. Let me call Let me call you back. Lamb. >> Could you just provide your information before you got it switched over? >> Could you just provide your name before you got it switched to Bay to me? >> You looked it up, didn't you? >> I looked up Bay. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. We're asking about the if you had a name before that schedule. No, >> you did. >> I saw it. >> You wrote down. >> What did I write down? >> What did you write down? >> I wrote down your VIN and then the birthday you provided me and then Street. >> Did I see what you wrote down? >> What? What is your name? Is it Was it the Dominique? Was that your what? Your old first name. >> So, if you >> I can't just run Dominique. There's a million Dominique in Ohio. >> I know that. Why would you Why are you sitting here trying to play me like I'm stupid? >> I don't know your last name. >> You got the VIN number, don't you? >> Is it? But it's if it's never been registered to you, it will never come back to a license plate. >> It doesn't it because I I got >> If it's never been registered to you in the state of Ohio, it's never going to come back to a state of Ohio license plate and therefore it won't be registered to you or anyone else. >> Does that make sense? >> Can you tell us it was registered previous state? I can look it up that way. >> No, it was it was registered here >> in Ohio or through the Mo station? >> No, it was registered here when I bought it because I had to register it here when I bought it. >> Did they give you a temporary tag? >> Yes. And it expired. >> Okay. And it once it expired, I never got anything else because I do not contract with the state of Ohio >> to get a license. >> Okay? >> I'm not trying to be difficult. This is just what I'm, you know, this is who I am. I don't go by the old name anymore. I'm not a murderer. I'm not a killer. I'm just a mother who's trying to go get some groceries for her six children. That's it. >> The officer then does another check of Camel's information, and it becomes time to decide, what are we going to do here? Hey chief, >> not valid, but no warrants. >> Not valid. Yes. Tickets. >> Okay. Send run away. >> Send run away. >> Cool. >> You good with that? >> Yep. All right, ma'am. >> So, he was able to find you. Thank you. >> What will you provide me a good phone number for you? >> Um Um >> You don't have to. It's totally optional. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, I'm giving you a ticket. Okay. I'm saying in advising, City of Bri is advising, you have to go to court for the ticket. Okay. Now you can go to court with all your documents, everything like that. You can prove your case. You can file for the fees that you like. Ends us and ends the court. Okay? >> I just have to advise you that you have to appear in court. Okay? Your court date will be March 24th at 9:00 in the morning in Berea. Um by signing it, you're not admitting guilt. >> Oh, I'm not signing. >> Okay. All right. All right. So, here's your copy. Okay. >> Mhm. >> There is the court date at the top on the inside. There's also a phone number and a website on the back. Okay. Directly through the court. >> Okay. >> Was nice speaking with you. I wish it was under better. >> Oh, it's fine. It's fine. It was good talking to you, too. But I'm going to come up there and possibly give you all this information if it's okay. >> You can you can drop off. I understand. I don't have the right to tell you to travel without me. >> No. No. It's not about me me um you giving me a right to travel. It's about me giving you the information that we are on file with the Department of Justice so you can see that we are recognized with the United States. >> But I guess just letting you know that if I don't respond formally doesn't mean I >> No, no, no. I'm going to bring it up there to you personally. >> I would like to see it. No, I'm going to bring it to you personally and um I'm going to show you that we are recognized with the um Department of Justice, which is a United States uh branch of office or whatever. Um and we are recognized and we also have a Department of Justice file number um that we're under. So, I just want you to see that we are recognized and this isn't just a load of BS. >> No, I I'm respecting you. I just we have to work within the contract. >> Oh, no. It's fine. It's fine. I just wanted to let you know that I >> appreciate again. I I wish I had been able to talk to you under under you know different type of because again I'm fascinated by by all this >> you also have a right to live in a private club >> I not your copy >> thank you let me buy you back to >> All right well thank you you guys have a blessed day >> thank you as well drive safely >> that seemed pretty cordial overall right well that's not quite the case with what happened next because now we're going to fast forward 6 months later and Camel's next interaction with the same officer, by the way, didn't go as smoothly. We come into this body cam footage when the officer already has camel in handcuffs outside of a US post office in September. Apparently, she never went to court for those previous citations. >> Let me lock my door. >> Okay, hold on. >> Is wrong with you just grabbing like that? Okay. Can I lock these so they don't turn up on you? >> Oh, give me my phone. >> Oh, hell no. I have to call my mother. >> Okay. >> First, come on. >> You never got a plate for the car either, right? >> No. And I'm not I don't It's not register. >> It's not registered. >> You're not driving. You're traveling. Same thing. >> I'm traveling. Yes. You know that. >> Okay. >> You know that. >> Okay. >> You can't have stuff in the back seat. Okay. >> It is mine. >> Okay. I'm not going anywhere with it. You just can't have it on you. Simple as that. Okay. >> So, I can't have my neighbor car either. >> Yes. No. I can get everything for you. You just can't have it in the back. >> Why can't I have my keys? >> Because you can't have anything. >> Okay. But I don't want you touching my keys. >> That's fine. But you can't have it. >> Okay. Okay. But I need to call my mom so she can come pick me up. >> Well, you're not getting picked up. You're in jail. >> Okay. But I can still get out. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, I need her to come pick me up. >> Okay. And we can make that arrangement when it gets there. Okay. >> Ma'am, you never left. Okay. >> No, you need to get the off. >> Okay. >> You know, I ain't in your jurisdiction. You just want to >> jurisdiction. >> What jurisdiction do we have? >> I'm not in your jurisdiction. >> Are you in the city of Bria? >> You're not even supposed to be touching me. >> You're in the city of Bria. The officer double checks the VIN to make sure this is in fact the car that he stopped 6 months ago. Turns out she still has the private license plate in her back window. >> I stopped her. I stopped calling the ground running. Now, when he takes a look inside her vehicle, the officer is once again able to confirm her name is Dominique Camel when he seemingly finds it on a bottle of medical marijuana. And he makes an interesting observation. Can't have a licensed sovereign citizen, but get a uh weed card. She's sovereign, but she has enough of Ohio ID to get a medical marijuana card. the medical marijuana. >> You can't talk to those people. They just they just drag you into a circle of >> I don't know what >> I'm out of sovereign you just said you were cuz I'm sovereign. >> Okay. >> When she's able to use our currency as a United States, you know, she's got cash and she's got, you know, >> such it's just a a ring of insanity. So, all right. No, >> she she tried pulling away from me when I hopped out cuz she as soon as I got behind her, she came right over. >> She's using the United States mail system and you know, driving on our public road. >> I'm going to be nice. I'm going to go mail that for her. >> Okay. >> And then uh I'm going to ride her for instructing, resisting, and a bunch of traffic. >> As the arresting officer works on his paperwork, Camel appears to be lecturing one of his colleagues. I don't I don't [ __ ] you put your pants on just like I put my pants on. You ain't no better than me. >> And I don't I don't need I don't It is not about working. I have a right to be who I am. I have a right to >> Listen, I don't care about your opinion. Your opinion is a whole. How about that? This is who I want to be. I don't have I have a right to choose how I want to live. And nobody tell me how to live. Can't nobody tell me who to be. Can't nobody tell me anything. And I'm not hurting anybody else. >> I want to live. I'm not >> And you're not God. You can't tell me what to do. And you can't tell nobody else what to do. Y'all put on them uniforms and it makes you feel like you got a position of power. Like you can treat people like But that's not the case because soon as you walked up to me, you were rude. You didn't come up to me and say, "Hey ma'am, you know what's going on today?" You came up to me on some [ __ ] because you thought you had in your mind that I was a certain kind of person or a certain kind of way off top, but you don't know me. I got >> I'm the only child that my mother had to live how I choose to live. I'm not hurting you. I'm not committing no crime. I didn't steal nothing from nobody. I didn't run nobody over. I didn't I'm not dealing no drugs. I have a warrant. >> Okay, I got a warrant. It's for a traffic ticket. Traffic warrant. >> But did I hurt anybody? Where's the victim? Where's the victim? >> There is no victim. You do you know everything else. You know this ain't going to work. You know everything else. So where's the victim? You don't know where the victim is. Where's the victim in the crime? >> So what happened? Well, Campbell had a jury trial scheduled for May 2024, but it is our understanding the state ended up dropping the charges. All right, next up, we're in North Tanowanda, New York in May of 2023. And a police officer is arriving to assist with a stop that's already in progress. According to his fellow officer, the driver of a blue rental car allegedly blew right through a stop sign. >> What's up? >> Hey, David. Hey. >> Tell you who he is yet. >> What's that? tell you who he is yet? >> He does not. >> All right, let's take him out and bring him back so we can identify him. >> Yep. >> I was just trying to see if we had anything on there so I could at least come up and already have his information, but it's a rental car. >> Yep. >> And I got nothing else. So, >> no idea who it is. >> No, I've never even seen this guy before. I flew right through the stop sign, but he is not uh he said he's he doesn't have to stick around. I Okay, well, I'm advising you legally you have to stay here. >> Yeah, he's detained. County. >> Looks like he got a rental. >> You got to have a contract for, right? And a driver's license. I need to see that. >> 1967 status check. >> 4104. Apparently, I'll give you a little bit of insight. My uncle was first sergeant military police. >> Okay. >> My cousin is a police officer in Jennese County. >> Okay. Who is it in Jese County? >> That would be Morgan. >> Yeah. >> So, anyway, I also had a federal security clearance of high security public trust. Right. So, I'm all about constitution. >> Okay. >> So, I need you as a public servant because am I a public servant or are you the public servant? >> So, I you're correct. I'm the public servant. >> Good. You have oath to office that constitution. Am I correct? >> Yep. >> What's the 10th amendment? >> So, I'm not going to get into that. >> So, you don't No, no, no. Listen to 10th amendment. >> We're going to have you step out of the car. >> You're not going to do anything. >> All right. Come on, sir. Get out. Yep. >> Have you removed out of the car? >> So, I'm going to record this again. >> You're free to record. You can record whatever you like. >> I'm going to roll up the window. >> Now, you're going to come on this. >> I'm going to have 203. Start this way as well. 196 at 203. You can command this location. >> Next step is I call 911 and I get SWAT here. >> We are SWAT. >> We are SWAT. So, >> good. your insurrectionist at this point in time because if you're trying to demand anything out of me, >> we need to identify >> I have no problem with giving you my license and what have you. What I'm doing is I'm ensuring you're abiding by your oath to the Constitution. >> So, we need to see your driver's license. >> You don't need to see anything from me because you are a public servant. I have the right to travel under the ninth amendment. I have right first amendment right freedom of exercise of religion. Freedom of exercise. Does that have to do with you committing a clarify? Stop interrupting me. You're the public servant. >> First amendment of exercise of religion, right? >> Does it state that? >> So, what I don't understand, sir, is what does it have to do with you not stopping at? Are you going to answer my question? >> No. I need to see your driver's license and registration. >> You're not going to answer my question? Then we're not >> Henry Clark. >> You want to act like a public servant and answer my question or do I you want to act like a >> is turn this from just a simple traffic stop? >> So what I'm doing is I'm asserting my rights as a US citizen and validating that you're not abiding by your oath of con to the constitution. >> So my job here today is to enforce the law. Is that correct? >> Correct. which you violated. >> No, because the first the which is the supreme law of the land Marberry versus Madison. If a law is created that violates a constitutional standard, it is automatically null and void. >> So sir, >> is that correct? If you have an oath to the constitution, >> stop at a stop sign. >> So that's what I'm getting to. Did you What's the freedom? >> I don't understand. >> So if you don't understand, I'm free to educate you. And are you going to listen, sir? Pennsylvania versus listening to me. >> Sir, Pennsylvania versus Mim says that we have the right to ask you out out of the car. >> You don't have any rights. First amendment, separation of church and state. >> Yes. Supreme Court case law. >> Supreme Court case. Marberry versus Madison. If a law is made that violates the constitutional standard, it's automatically null and void. >> Sir, you can either give us your license or you have to step out of the vehicle. It's >> your choice. This man who we now know is Richard Uert also goes by the name of Oadia. He posted this body cam footage on his own YouTube channel. Take a look. >> It's annoying, isn't it? >> I'm here till 10. >> I've already fought a course case in North W. Just let you know. I had it thrown out. is dismissed for the same principle I'm stating with you right now. >> Okay. >> So, do you think you have the authority? >> You violated vehicle and traffic law. >> Which law is that? >> 1172A >> state law. >> New York state vehicle and traffic law. >> Who state constitution refers to the US constitution as the supreme law of the land. Is that correct? >> We're not doing this, sir. >> If you're not doing it, then I'm not doing it. >> Okay. calling 911 for >> county. Just your advice. This driver is calling 911. >> Niagara County 911. Where's your emergency? >> Yeah, I don't know where it exactly is. What road am I? >> On Ruy Road, sir. >> Do we? >> We're on Ruy Road. >> Ruy. Okay. I'll let you the officer explain. Right now, I have a couple police officers. I'm trying to assert my rights under the Constitution. First amendment separation of church of state which states clearly in the first amendment that the freedom of exercise of religion that freedom of exercise if congress can't pass law then they can't violate that the judicial department can't enforce the law that's supreme law of the land. I'm asserting that with these officers, they're pulling me over for a traffic violation, which is state law. And the on the federal level, they refuse to abide by their oath of office to the constitution. Now, they're acting under the 10th amendment, which states clearly to the state or the people. It's not exclusive to the states. So, that said, they don't have any authority nor jurisdiction in this matter. Even if I did go through a stop sign, there's nobody that was hurt or injured, which doesn't make it a crime. And since I follow common law, which is five of ten commandments, no murder, no theft, no coveting, no bearing, false witness, and no adultery. They are currently committing an insurrection. >> Well, I don't know if I did or not. That's what they're proclaiming, but state law doesn't supersede federal law. Federal law, first and 10th amendment as well as the ninth amendment apply here and they're violating the rules of the constitution which in turn would make them insurrectionists. >> Now I have police officers in my family and what have you. >> Sir, my name is Richard Uert's license. Ewt and just for fun because I I don't have any problem with giving them a my license wavy. I'm just kind of asserting my rights at the moment. Do you have an emergency? >> The emergency is these cops are violating my constitutional rights and they refuse >> on the way over to speak with you. You can speak with the lieutenant when he gets there, but unfortunately right now you're tying up an emergency line for somebody that could be in cardiac arrest or having trouble breathing or having sh. >> Well, they did try to say that I have to step out of the vehicle and they're trying to demand things out of me where acting [clears throat] like they have the authority when they're public service. on the way there. You can speak with the lieutenant when he gets there. Okay. >> All righty. Thank you. >> Okay. You're welcome. >> We could have gone a whole different route over this >> other than >> Exactly. And I just wanted to ask you questions and I needed >> It's not for you to ask me questions. I'm super cordial to you. I came up to you. All I see your driver's >> license again. You're the public servant, right? >> Correct. But >> if I asked you a question, if you wanted to keep it cordial and everything, you would have answered the question, >> right? But you're not even identifying who you were to me. >> I don't have to. >> You do, though, cuz you're driving on a New York State roadway. You need to produce >> amendment, sir. It >> has nothing to do with the travel. >> You can speak with my supervisor. >> I'm the supervisor. >> Okay. >> It's New York State law. This is a traffic stop. Identify yourself or you're going to be arrested for obstruction in a misdemeanor. >> All right. You have an oath of constitution. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> There we go. >> Okay. >> It's time to get out of the car and identify yourself. So if you go and do what you're doing, >> you're violating your old constitution. >> Nope. >> You're accus You're detained right now. You're accused of committing a crime, a vehicle and traffic law. You have to identify yourself. It's basic when you're 16 years old to get your license. I'm Lieutenant Smith 203. You're going to identify yourself to these officers right now. >> Why are you not identifying yourself? >> I already did actually on the 911 call. I give him my uh driver's license number and everything. But as far as that's concerned, again, you have an oath to the constitution. Are you going to allow me to speak? I'll clarify this for you. >> Yep. Are you going to identify yourself? >> Are you going to allow me to clarify? >> Yes. >> As the arguments continue to go in circles. The officers have finally had enough. Because what I'm saying to you right now, because as much as you're trying to come at me, keep in mind I have the full legal right to remove Joe Biden from his office right now with the same context. >> Are you okay? Do you do you know what year it is? >> Do you know what year it is? >> Do you know what year it is? >> Okay, let me clarify this for you because you want to have this kind of argument. Do you proclaim December to the 12th month >> of the year? Yes. Even though the word itself state literally means exactly because you don't know. I don't know if it's a mental health too. >> Is this a mental health issue or are you >> That sounds like you do have one because if you proclaim the summer to be the 12th month when it literally means the means you're probably not in your right mind. >> Identify yourself to these police officers right now. Identify yourself to these police officers. >> So are you doing an insurrection against people? You're about to be removed from this vehicle. >> Shut the car off. Shut the car off. Shut the car off. >> Let's go. Ready. >> You committed assault. >> No. Try to close the window on me if I told you get out of the vehicle. Taking multiple chances identify yourself. >> Now, I told you quite often that you're instruction. >> No. Do >> you have any weapons in the car? >> No. Now you're performing illegal search and procedures. violation of the Fourth Amendment. >> U was charged with obstruction of governmental administration and released on an appearance ticket. He entered a not-uilty plea and the police contacted Herz to sort out that whole mess about what to do with the rental car. Now we go to Florida where two residents ended up behind bars after law enforcement says an early morning traffic stop could have had deadly consequences. This dashboard camera video is from December 2022, just a couple weeks before Christmas. A Florida state trooper has stopped this older model truck which doesn't have a license plate. He approaches the truck on the passenger side to talk to the driver, but driver seemingly won't roll down the window. It is hard to hear some of the responses from the driver identified as Samuel Dulan, but we are able to follow along based on what the trooper is saying. >> Okay, open the door. Open the door. What's up? >> What's up, sir? >> I noticed you don't have a tag on your vehicle. >> Okay. If I need to talk to you, I'm going to open the door. >> All right. >> How is that illegal? >> How is that? Please tell me how that's illegal. I don't see a tag on your vehicle. Like I said, >> what's that? >> How do I know that? >> That's why I'm stopping you to ask you about the vehicle. >> That just means the vehicle can go under 25 mph. >> Okay. Do you have your ID on you? >> They continue to argue over identification until the trooper eventually goes over to check the truck's VIN. >> This can go very smoothly. You could have been out of here by now if you just show me your ID. >> 1386 10. Okay. So then what's the issue? Nope. Is your VIN number up here? >> Okay. Can you please move your stuff? >> The trooper later reported that he'd spotted a handgun inside the truck within the driver's reach. So, he went back to his patrol car to wait for backup. What's up, Let's talk back here. Don't know what this squirrel is going to do. All right. So, obviously there's no tang, right? So, I stop to question him. I go on this side cuz that's why I do my stops and he didn't roll down. I did this. Like, no. So, I open his door up and he's like, "What you just did was illegal." He said, "No, it's not. Trying to talk to you." I told him what was uh he didn't have a tag attached to the car, right? Well, it's a farm vehicle, but you don't see the stick the triangle. Said, "Okay, well, let me let me get your identification." I have it, but I'm not going to give it to you. And I can see a signal zero sitting in the console. >> All right. So, okay, >> that's cool. All right. So, we're going to jerk him out of the vehicle. >> Yeah, he's not complying. We're getting him out of the vehicle. >> The Poke County Sheriff's Office also responded and started blasting out commands through a megaphone. your hand out of the car. Now, if you can roll down your window, roll down your window. If not, keep your hands right there. Passenger, put your hands out of the car. driver, keep your right hand through the window. With your left hand, open the door. >> While Dulan did put his hands up as asked, he still refused to exit the vehicle. And that is when, as you can imagine, things escalated. >> Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. >> Get out of the car now. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Open the door. >> OPEN THE DOOR. OPEN THE DOOR. >> Get out of the car now. >> Get out OF THE CAR NOW. OPEN THE door now. Open the door. >> Open the door. >> Open the door. >> Get on the ground. >> I got his hands. I'mma pull up your way. >> Hey, I'm just letting you know. A man didn't talk to me. He opened my door. We're not asking. Get out of the car. THE MAN DID NOT TALK to me. He opened my door and then called y'all. YOU TASED ME. YOU BROKE MY WINDOW. None of the sheriff's department talk to me. >> Calm down. >> I am. I'm just talking loud. >> WHY IS THE SHERIFF DOING WHAT A STATE trooper told him without talking? >> YOU DID NOT EVEN TALK. YOU CAME UP, DELIVERED IT, >> opened the window, >> didn't pop. >> You stop. >> I gave you an order. >> That is illegal order. It was not a lawful order. >> The dash cam doesn't lie. The trooper and Dulan went back and forth about ID several times. Dulan asked to be put in a deputy's car instead of a troopers reportedly because of his belief that since the sheriff is elected he's an acceptable authority figure hey I'm not getting he's not law I will take sheriff back >> I'm not getting an estate trooper's car I'll hand your sheriff this is on y'all Nope. It's not how it works. You don't get a choice. >> Everything I'm not. I'm just saying everything you're doing is illegal. You're not even illegal. It's a professional talking. Yeah. >> You also notice that Dulan's girlfriend at the time was also pulled from the car, though in a much calmer way. When it comes time for her to be led away, Dulan gets protective. >> Hey, can we do something? At least be polite to the lady. She was being belligerent. >> Yes, she'll be fine. >> She's not going to be arrested, right? Talk to me. Talk to me. I know it's your job. Um, >> put her back to your car for now. >> She's being detained right now. >> Put your leg in the car, bro. >> Jesus. What in the world? >> I thought it was going to be an icy stop. >> Huh? >> Complying at all. >> He refused everything. I told him I saw a weapon in the car. He said, "Yeah, it's protected against you." I said, "Okay, well, you need to come out of the car." He refused to do it. So, so I just stayed back here. >> Well, as the sun starts to come up, law enforcement searched Dulan's truck, finding five firearms. Among them was a Glock 9 mm which had been altered from semi-automatic to fully automatic and a rifle also altered to be an automatic weapon. The rifle's barrel was also 2 in shorter than is allowed by law. During a news conference the next day, Poke County Sheriff Grady Jud answered questions about the arrests. >> He had his girlfriend with him. She got to be a part of this and even got some charges as a result. She's Tiffany Bean. So now you've got Samuel Dulan and Tiffany Beam in the vehicle. We break the back window out of the pickup truck. He still refuses to get out of the vehicle. We immediately tased him and once the taser struck him, he became more compliant. We pulled him out of the vehicle and arrested him. Here's what we learned. He wouldn't identify himself. He wouldn't get out of the vehicle. We saw a handgun and when we asked him about all this, he said, "Well, you know, I'm kind of a sovereign and I don't recognize state law enforcement. They have no authority over me. This was an illegal stop. Only the elected sheriff has authority, law enforcement authority." Well, he learned before the day was over that he was right. The sheriff's office does have authority and we appropriately charged him. But he also learned the state troopers have authority as well because they charged him as well. We took him into custody. Tiffany immediately lost interest in wanting to resist any further. So she was simply arrested and taken into custody for resisting. He says he's has sovereign tendencies and today he has jailhouse tendencies. You know what I'm saying? So that's our Christmas present to him. early present. When you don't vi obey the law, we're gonna lock you up. Merry Christmas. >> The sheriff revealed that Doulan is the brother of Joshua Dulan, a Florida man sentenced to 18 months in prison for his role in the January 6th riots on Capitol Hill. He also says Doulan told investigators he had been an Army Ranger who was dismissed from the military because he refused to take the CO 19 vaccine. Sheriff says while Dulan put up his hands and never reached for his weapon, his possession of the illegally altered firearms was concerning. >> Is he picked up several felony criminal charges? What we know is he was not a felon before. He wasn't a or he didn't have any criminal record before. So, he managed to go from ostensibly a law-abiding citizen to picking up a lot of serious felony charges that he's now facing over simply not having a tag on his truck. Now, come on, man. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out in the state of Florida when everybody else has got a tag on their car, you got to have one, too. And if you don't, then we're going to cite you and take the appropriate action. And as a result, he chose to do it the hard way. We can do it the easy way or we can do it the hard way. The state of Florida has determined you have to have a tag to operate your vehicle on public property. He ignored the law. He went to jail. >> Sheriff Jud mentioned that Dulan's fiance, Tiffany Beam, was also charged back in December of 2022. In May 2023, Beam, who had been assigned public defenders to represent her, filed a notice of change to council. She wrote that Dulan would be representing her because she did not think the appointed lawyers had quote the adequate time and mindset to properly represent her. Dulan signed that document prosay litigant. Dulan admitted to investigators that he created, signed, and filed the documents in question because her lawyers weren't doing their jobs. He also admitted he is not a licensed attorney in the state of Florida. Prosecutors dropped the charges against Beam in November 2023. As for Dulan, in January of 2024, he entered a no contest plea to two counts of possession of a shortbarreled gun, rifle, or machine gun, and he was sentenced to one year in prison. Next up, we're staying in Florida, but heading down to the panhandle in Santa Rosa County. It's June 2022 and that is where deputies stopped this driver after allegedly punched a man in a McDonald's drive-thru because the man didn't know how to drive. >> Hey, how are you, man? Hey, I'm with the sheriff's office. Were you guys just involved in an altercation? Maybe a road rage incident with somebody. >> Uh, yeah, that was a road ra. >> Okay. All right. Would you mind to step out me real quick? Just talk to me so I get your side of the story. >> Well, I can talk to you right here. >> I'm asking you to step out. Okay. So, you can step out or I can help you out. It's your choice. Listen, you don't have the right to put your hands on me. I'm talking. >> Nobody's complaining. >> I'm I'm cooperating. I'm talking >> and I'm asking you step up so I can talk to you. >> I'm not going to step out of my vehicle for what? >> Do you have your ID, sir? >> I sure do. >> Okay. Let me see it, please. >> Let me get my video going. >> Okay. Get your video going. >> So, you want to tell me what's going on then? I was turning from coming from the beach. >> I was getting over in the left lane. There's speed around me and so I come over here to McDonald's and I tell him I said look around. So that means you need to wait to see what I'm going to do before you try to speed around. He got in the the left far left lane. So I got in the far left lane behind him. And I came over and I asked him. I said, "What was the purpose of you cussing me?" And he started Okay, >> just that simple. So, he was behind me. >> Cuz he's cussing at you. You punched him in the mouth. >> And I'm going to tell you why. It's because from here forward, y'all going to learn to respect what we are on Earth. That was uncalled for. I was I had I was in front of him. So, that means that wherever I go, it's behind until I decide where I'm going to go. But I was getting in the lane, the left, the only left lane that was open to get to the far left lane. That lane wasn't even open yet. just to get done came beside us and just started cussing at us. I was like I came over here to the lot and I asked him I said what was the purpose of you cussing at me and I said you going to look >> where was he standing when you bunched him was he like at your window was sitting in this car right here. I walked over to the car and I asked him I said look what was the purpose of you cussing at me? You were behind me and you had to wait until I moved and what whatever I did you decide what you going to do after that. He started cussing. He said well you learn drive. I said, "Well, you going to you're going to learn how to respect what what I am on earth and what I stand for on earth right now. Y'all better stop messing with us. Y'all better stop messing with us." That guy, he got judged today. And if you knew who I was, you would know why he got judged. And if you knew that he was into before this incident, this day, everything happens for a reason. Nothing. >> Somebody out with him over there. I'm not Everything happens for a reason. And y'all need to stop getting involved in people's personal business because all that does is just create more situations where people don't have to take responsibility for the they do. >> You understand when you make contact with somebody is considered a battery. >> So we got the call. So we have to investigate it. That's what we're here to do. >> Look, he verbally abused me. So that's battery. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Would you write a statement on saying what happened? >> I'm not listen. I'm not getting involved with y'all. We handle that ourselves. We're two grown men. We don't need to be policeed. We don't need to be controlled. We are not in We're not in preschool. We are two grown men. >> I handled my business like I was supposed to. >> I appreciate your your opinion on the matter, but he has a different opinion. >> Okay. Okay. And whatever his opinion is, if he wants to write down stuff for y'all, then he can. I don't have to do that. I'm not getting involved with y'all. I'm telling you what you want to know. I'm cooperating with you. But I'm not getting out of my car. I'm not writing nothing down. I All I had to do was deal with him. That was my problem. I dealt with it. And that's it. >> Deputies find out later that the man's name is Derail Reynolds, but he doesn't plan on telling them that right now or really seemingly cooperating in any way. >> I'm camping. My son and I retired and we came down here for peace. >> You retired military? >> I I was in the military, but I >> What branch of the military? >> Navy. >> Navy. Well, thank you for your service. >> Thank you. >> How many years you spent in the Navy? >> I was in two years and I ran a business. I ran several business for 16 years. Okay. >> I was I had a commercial cleaning business and a landscape and lawn care business on a spiritual journey. >> This is the type that I'm dealing with. So, >> I got I got nothing against your spiritual journey, man. >> I deal with all this stuff. I dealt with the problem. I already fixed that. If he ain't man enough to do that for himself, that's his problem. >> Okay. >> If he wants to run around cussing at people and being mad at people because he can't that little baby can't have his way, then he gets what he spiritually. Okay. Well, that's not always the way the laws mean it though. You understand that, right? >> And and let me tell you something about your law. If you go back and actually study your law, none of these laws. They have expired. They the the statute of limitations on all American laws have already expired in 20 years from 1776. >> And and and furthermore, how are we as citizens on land operating in maritime law? >> Okay. All right. Let me go ahead and step out the vehicle for me. >> I'm not getting out of my name, sir. What did I do? Can I get your name? I told I gave you my ID. This is what we're going to do. We're going to get you out of the car. We're going to talk to them. Get his side of the story. I got to look. I'm not going to because you guys are going too far with too far. I am not doing anything to I'm trying to be cordial. >> We're trying to expect you to be cordial. >> But you what you want to do is control me. I'm not going to let you do that. I'm going to sit right here. I am talking to both of you like you are to verbally abus against the law. >> Okay? It's against my law for me to be talked to like he talked to me and I follow universal law which trumps all this mess that y'all got going on here. So like I said, you don't have no jurisdiction over me. You are on my earth and if I decide to do something about it, I can right now. Look, when I when you go, >> you need to understand what this is and you need to understand who I am. You need to understand that I have a power that I can use right now on both of you if you don't stop messing with me. We're not here. I'm not I'm not You are threatening me telling me you can by law I can do this. Well, by my law I have the right to do what I need to do. >> We're asking you please make it easier on everybody. We get this out. >> Why do I have to do Why do I have to get out of my vehicle? I'm not. If I'm in my vehicle, you safe. I'm safe. Everybody's safe. >> Investigate the crime that possibly you committed. >> Street. >> Okay. Yes. So, we're investigating this. So, we need you to step out. Okay. Is this your son back here? >> Yes, it is. >> This is completely cordial. Everything's being good. Okay. >> He's fine. >> Why won't y'all let him get out? >> There's no reason. We're trying to get you out. We're not going to let him get in. >> Why do you need to get out? If you're not under because there's a possibility of you being under arrest. >> Why do y'all have to arrest matter? We're committing battery. So, but we have to investigate that. And you doing the way you're doing it is making it more difficult for us. We're going to be making more difficult. You're here on vacation. We're just trying to We're trying to work a way through it. Okay. >> Listen, guys. Listen. Hey, there's no listening. Just Just be cordial. Step out the vehicle and let's figure this out. One thing I want y'all to understand is I don't I'm not going to jail over some of that petty. If two men in the street can't handle their business, if he if he's big enough to run his mouth to anybody he runs into and can just say whatever he wants to say out of his mouth, there's consequences for that. Okay? He suffered the consequences. And if y'all get in the way of his judgment, you bring it on yourself and I'll get out. What you're doing is bringing it on yourself because you're getting involved in >> Now Reynolds agrees to get out of the car but bristles when the deputies try to arrest him. His son Cameron even gets involved and the deputies threaten to tase him. >> Look, you don't have to do all of that. Behind your back, this is >> Hey, back up. Back up. Get the [ __ ] off. Go ahead and tase him. Put your hands behind your back. >> Put your hands behind YOUR BACK RIGHT NOW. >> PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND your back. >> Why is all this calm down? >> I'm not doing anything. >> Don't you tense up on me or we're going to the ground. Do you understand? >> This is not >> I got it. Are you Doesn't take that much to put this out. >> Y'all just messed up yourself. >> I didn't touch either one of y'all. Well, listen. We gave you the opportunity to go nicely and peacefully. You want to resist. You want to pull away. This is what happened. I >> did not pull away from you. >> You absolutely did. Now you're catching additional charge. You're going to be placed under arrest for battery day as well as resist officer. You understand that? >> Go ahead and search him for what? I don't have any pocketed. >> You're going to jail. >> Okay. >> So, you're getting search >> for what? I don't have pocket. >> Doesn't matter. >> It clearly does. >> Stand up against the car. Don't move. >> Or what? Or what? >> I'm genuinely asking. Or what? Have a seat. When it comes to your soul, I hope you know it's mine. >> Okay, great. Fantastic. >> Certainly. Like we here. >> Yeah. Yeah, you can definitely smell it. I just can't believe you just We were trying to be I tried to talk him out of it. You see, I tried. >> Dude, you're hella patient, man. >> Yeah. Well, I wanted to step out. >> Yeah. >> You got knives all in there. Got knives all in here. Hey, Sar. I'm going to check his just make sure they're all double locked up and too. He says one of them's too tight. So, you wouldn't mind. All right. Thank you. I appreciate you. Just around to let me double check it for you. All right. Which one's tight one? He said this one. >> Yeah. >> All right. Let it >> I'm going to let it come back a couple clicks. Is that better? >> All right. And let me double check this one. How's that one for you? That one. All right. >> Okay. Okay. All right. Hold tight one thing. All right. Is that better? Okay. was he wasn't he wasn't getting out the car. He wasn't doing this. He wasn't doing by our laws like >> he's sovereign. >> Yeah, that's what I was saying. >> Um put Junior in here with me. >> Yep. >> How about that? >> Where are they going? >> We're going to Las Vegas. >> All right. You search him down. >> Yeah. >> All right. We'll check them real quick. Anyone poke stick and stab me? >> Anything poke stick and stab me? >> No. >> All right. >> Walk over here to the driver side of the car. Okay. >> How tall are you, my man? >> You're about 6'5, 66. I'm 6'2. All right. Slide on in for me right there. Okay. I know it's going to be a tight fit cuz you're taller. I apologize for the fit. I know it's not cozy. All right. Seat belt's optional. You want a seat belt or no? >> How about you, sir? Seat belt or no? Okay. All right. Sit tight, man. All right. They're going on a spiritual journey. >> With Reynolds and his son in custody, another deputy checks in with the victim. >> What's up, man? >> I was turning in to go get somebody. I went to go turn off the bridge to take a ride. >> Right. >> Um, this guy cut me off. Um, I tried to go around and get away from him. Um, he followed me here. I turned in here. Um, used my blinkers the whole time and I noticed he was using his blinkers the whole time. He followed me. I went through the drive-thru. guys are going to get on me. He got on the other side. He said, "I'm going to teach you >> 58 >> some manners, blah blah blah, and I'm going to get you and then fire >> and proceed to get out of the vehicle and just Did you ever get out of your car?" >> Okay. >> My seat belt on. >> Okay. You got your ID on you? Do you want to pursue charges on him for battery? find him. >> Oh, we got him. >> Yeah, I I want You can't do this to people. >> Now, it seems that because the witness said Reynolds reached into the car to punch him, Reynolds was charged with burglary with battery, as well as resisting an officer without violence. He was released on bond, but he got in trouble with Florida fish and wildlife officers because he apparently him and his son were using a local campground as a home overstaying the 7-day maximum. After his court appearance on that citation, he was required to stay in contact with the bond agency if he was going to remain free, but apparently he didn't. So, the judge revoked his bond. He reportedly has been locked up since February 2023, slowly working his way towards trial. We're going to end this in Eustace, Florida, near the middle of the state. It's December 2022, and an officer has pulled over a truck at a Dollar General. >> Hi. >> Hello. >> I'm Sergeant Brown, USCPD. Reason I stopped cuz you're not wearing your seatelt. Do you have your license registration on you, ma'am? >> I'm sorry. Is that I'm sorry. I just took my seatelt off. >> You didn't have it on. >> Yes, I did. >> Mm-m. >> Yes, I did. >> Mm-m. >> Yes, I did. >> Mm- >> You're going to have to I just took it off. I wear my seat belt, actually. I I yell at everybody for not wearing their seatelt. >> Outstanding. Do you have your license on you, ma'am? >> Um, no. I'm not going to do this this morning. >> Dude, we're not from here. >> I know you guys from Michigan. I saw the tag. So, >> yeah. So, I'm I'm not >> My passport. >> I'll give you my passport. >> Okay, that's fine. Whatever you got, >> but I'm not I'm not doing this traffic thing. I'm in Homeland Security School, bro. >> Okay. >> Am I going to mess up your career? So, do you have your passport on you or some sort of ID? >> I locked it at the house. It's not even on me. Okay, no worries. >> I got mine. >> He's got his. >> Okay. Do you have it? >> I'm on my way to church right now. >> Okay. >> This is insane. >> I took my I took my seat belt off. You see? I told you. >> Thanks, man. >> Yep. >> Do you have Do you actually have a a DL? >> What do you mean? I don't need a driver's license in America. Actually, to be honest with you, I don't I've already won this in court. >> Fantastic. >> Title 18. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> 31. >> All right. Which? Let me verify it. >> India. >> I'm sorry. Michigan is not coming back. >> This is my jurisdiction actually. Yes. >> They just lie and lie and lie. >> Stand by. You sis. >> And what seemed like a basic traffic stop starts to become a little more complicated. >> What's your first name, ma'am? >> Same thing. >> Ma'am, what's your first name? >> What? >> Your first name? did. But I'm trying to figure out what crime I committed for you to ask me that. >> Not wearing your seatelt, ma'am. >> That's not a crime. That's a >> It's a traffic violation, ma'am. >> It's actually a civil infraction, >> which I can pull you over for. Yes. >> Um, no. I was wearing my seat belt, though. We're having a dispute here. I was wearing it and you're saying >> we're having a dispute here. So, here >> you can't you can't tell me I was wear I was Can you settle down for a second here? Here's here's here here's how it's going to play out. >> I'm going to verify everything and I'm just going to cut you a traffic warning and be on my merry way. That was my whole plan, just to be honest with you. Not to get into a long drawn argument about whatever. This is not to be a pissing match, to piss you off, to be mean, to be evil, all that good stuff. I am going to be as chill as possible. There is no need to be like mad today. >> The driver continues to insist she was buckled up the entire time. >> I definitely 100% under God's uh graceful eye was wearing a seat belt. >> Okay, listen to me. My game plan is very simple. I am just going to verify that you have a license or whatever that says you can drive in the state of the United States. Once that's clean and valid, I'm out of here. That is my plan. >> Okay. >> This is not how you doing. >> Can you give me like one minute? >> Oh yeah. Give me one minute, mama. >> All right. What's your first name, mama? >> It's Dixie. >> Dixie. Miss Dixie? >> Yeah. >> You got a middle name, Miss Dixie? >> I don't. >> Okay. What's your last name? >> Uh, Williams. >> Miss Williams. Okay. And your birthday? >> It's a It's in August. Wow. I cannot wait to tell my professor this. >> Okay. And the year? >> We have to do all this over. >> Yeah. cuz I don't have her DL or passport. But I just told you that you need an identification though, >> right? >> I don't have to have a I don't have to have >> to verify your identity. Yes, you do. >> No, I don't. That's >> okay. Whatever you say. But I need What's your What's your year of uh birth? >> Okay. So, this is Dixie Williams. And Miss Williams hands the officer a prescription bottle, which she says can help prove her identity. After finally getting the information, the officer searches for more details about Williams. her passenger and the truck. >> You don't your license is suspended out of mine? >> Yeah. >> Out of Florida. >> Cancel. >> Cancel. Whatever you want to call it. >> Well, when you when you sign an affidavit of cancellation, that means you're canceling your contract with Department of Vehicle Motor Vehicles. >> Can't find you. And we can't even find the truck. It's like it's not even registered. So, I'm going to run the VIN real quick. >> Yeah. I mean, we have access we have access from we have access in the in the database of all the states, but I'm going to run the VIN and see what we get. That's where we're at. >> Another officer on scene has an idea about what might be going on here. I >> think you're right, man. I think this might be sovereign citizens, homie. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This is strange, dude. All day. Dixie. >> Miss Dixie. >> I want to talk to you about the problem. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we're not finding it at all. >> Well, I don't know what to tell you. They're on a paper system. >> Can I talk to you over here then real quick? >> Um, >> hold on. Do you have my driver or do you have >> We have your passport, ma'am. >> But my passport ID, >> I have his. >> Did it fall out of there? because it's it's an electronic card. And what is this guy talking about? A passport isn't an identification. >> His formal identification is not a form for a license operating motor vehicle. >> Yeah, but we're not a resident of the state of Florida. >> You still have to have a license operator of the vehicle in the state of Florida. >> Okay. >> As the officer wearing the body cam stays at the truck to talk to Williams husband, you can overhear Williams becoming heated with one of the other cops on scene. law states that when you're passing through that's something >> okay first of all that would be like calling somebody black >> yes it is it is very actually >> 10 I'm sorry though because that's com so everybody As Williams is put in cuff, she calls for an OIC or officer in charge. >> Uh Tony, why are you arresting me? Good. Arrest me. I hope you're arresting me. Call Kathy right now. Get my attorneys on the phone. Why are you arresting me? Oh, I see. Here. Oh, I see. I asked for your body cameras on >> Okay, then I need the captain. I need the colonel. >> Cody, it doesn't matter. >> I am pregnant. You can >> get Can I get over here? I'm the OIC. >> We gave you our passports from abort. >> I know. Listen, here is a symbol in practice. >> Here's where we're at, Cody. >> The truck's not registered. >> The tag's expired. >> Okay. Where did you Where did you buy the truck? >> He's an attorney. I don't know. >> Hey, can you get my lawyer on the phone? >> I don't know. >> Almost a year ago or something, maybe. Okay. Sitting around. >> No, no, no, no, no. I do not get arrested for driving in the state of Florida cuz I'm not driving. I'm traveling and you are >> I'm listening, bro. I'm being I'm being I'm being cool with you. >> You are out of control, sir. YOU ARE ABUSING YOUR POWER. NO, I AM NOT. I'm not pregnant in handcuffs. THAT'S WHAT THE >> We have property. We've been through this before. >> No, I'm not in West Palm Beach years ago. >> I hope you heard me. I have a baby in my stomach. Do not touch it. >> What is the big deal? Honestly, >> why are you guys >> I'm not resisting anything you >> Thanks, guys. >> No problem. >> All right. >> My guys are not being aggressive. Your wife is taking things up a notch, unfortunately. >> But and and this is where this is where we're coming from. Okay. Okay. >> So, >> she does not have a calm down. >> Yeah, she'll calm down in a >> in a minute. >> She doesn't have a driver's license. >> Okay. >> But she's not driving. >> No, she was she was driving. That's what I'm saying. I saw her drive. >> I'm telling you, we're not driving. We're traveling. >> Okay. You're traveling. Whatever you want to call it. But she does not have a valid >> driver's license. How old are you? >> 37. >> Okay. I'm 36. The issue is that you just don't know the definition, okay, of the words. Driving is for commercial purposes. You're traveling. Now, in court, no matter how much you guys believe your own beliefs, the words, the definition of the words have meaning. When you know this, you go to court, you tell the judge, listen, >> I'm traveling. Here's the law. >> They dismiss it. But you guys go through this whole then we got to do lawsuits and everything else. And for what reason? The OIC, officer in charge, asked the passenger about the couple's beliefs. >> Let me ask you a question, okay? Are you guys like sovereign citizens? >> No, of course not. >> Okay. >> We're just Americans that stand up for, you know, our rights. >> Okay. And I'm fine. I'm totally fine with that. I respect that by all means. It's okay. I don't mean to like insult you by asking that question. But the certain the certain language that was being used, it kind of had me like a little concerned. >> Explain explain to me the language. >> Okay. That you guys don't recognize jurisdiction. You guys are traveling things like that. >> Recognized jurisdiction. I know I know the three branches of government >> everybody should >> executive branch and you know legislative branch and >> you know and of course judicial branch. I get >> all well listen man like I said I don't know the title on this truck is even canled. So if this was a old beatup truck that was sitting around it should have been registered. That's the problem. It's not registered. That's the big problem. Okay. >> I I mean I I own the truck. I know you own the truck, but I'm telling you I'm telling you right now in And this tag was run nationwide. The VIN was ran nationwide and it's showing >> legit, >> but it's it's not registered. It's not even like up to date. >> That's nationwide. >> We're Dude, we live in Maine majority of the time. >> Okay. >> We're just traveling down here. >> Okay. >> You know, kids down here. My wife is from Florida. I'm from Washington State originally. >> Okay. You know, >> but if you guys are you guys are traveling, but you guys you guys got to have a driver's license. >> No, you do. >> You can have a passport and stuff for ID purposes. >> Be in Florida. >> Yeah, it is for ID purposes. >> For ID purposes, but for driving a motorized vehicle in the States, you need a you need a traveling you need a you need a driver's license. >> You do not need a driver's license to travel. >> Yes, you do. >> No, you don't. There's already all this case solved that's on and it's already there. Supreme Court's, you know, ruled on it several times. >> Okay. Well, >> only reason the lower court has to keep going through this is because you guys don't the words. >> Okay. Hear me out. >> And so, we're battling over what a belief system is. You believe we're driving >> and we're telling you we're not. >> And that's that's where the issue comes in. And it's like every time we stand up for rights or something, you guys get on, you know, this high horse, authoritarian high horse, and we're like, "Well, you're driving. You're this." And we got to go to court and we tell the judge, and the judge is like, "Okay, they're traveling." It's like, "Why do we have to go through that every single time?" >> And the officer has more bad news for them. >> That being said, unfortunately, the truck's got the truck has to get towed. >> What do you mean? >> It's not registered. >> It's not even up to date on the registration, the tag. Yeah, it's no truth, but it doesn't, you know, like, >> but you still have, but if you're traveling, you have to have the registration up to date. You can't be driving on expired tags. >> In the DMV, Department of Motor Vehicles for every state, >> you don't contract with them. >> Tony, call Kathy. Tell her to get here now. Williams was arrested and charged with not having a valid driver's license, not having any vehicle registration, attaching a fake plate to the truck, resisting law enforcement without violence, and refusing to sign a summon. Then in May of 2023, Williams wanted her attorneys dismissed so she could represent herself. She then filed a motion for her case overall to be dismissed. That was denied. The court ordered a competency hearing. In January of 2024, Williams was accused of taking her two biological children from their foster home in Sarrento, Florida. After an Amber Alert, Williams and the two girls, they were found safe in Louisiana. But this mother now faces a kidnapping charge. Troopers in Louisiana say she still wasn't wearing her seatelt. >> I do not consider arrest. I do not consider arrest. I do not arrest. >> I'm traveling right now. >> You're traveling to jail right now. Not in the conduct. >> Not in the process of conducting business right now. >> Take me to see the magistrate. Please sit down. >> Can I ask you a question so we can cut through all of this? Is this really worth it to go through all of this for four pieces of paper when you can just put a face covering on? >> I'm not traveling. >> Stand by. [music] >> Step out. Are you ser? >> Get out of the car. >> Oh my god. >> Sovereign citizens run-ins with law enforcement frequently turn confrontational and sometimes even violent. We're checking out the top five times sovereign citizens try to outsmart police and it's all caught on body cam. Welcome to After Hours presented by Law and Crime. I'm Sam Goldberg. We begin today's episode of After Hours in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. Sergeant Glass is on patrol when he observes a suspected tag on a vehicle driving through a school zone. Hey buddy, you want it down for me? >> I can't hear you. You need to roll your window down for me. >> Just a little bit more for me, please. >> Go ahead. Give me another unit. >> You can hear me. >> Okay. May I see your driver's license, please? Registration and proof of insurance. The reason I'm stopping you, sir. Your tax zone suspended for no insurance? >> No, sir. I think >> I'm sorry. Sir. >> Sir, I've committed a crime. >> Okay. We're not going to play that game today. Okay. >> Not. >> Okay. I need your driver's license, sir. >> Sir, what's your name? >> Sir, my name is Sergeant Glass. ID 293. >> My name is Sergeant Glass. ID 293. Okay. Your tag is showing suspended for not having insurance on file. >> Unfortunately, >> okay. So, you're going to refuse to identify yourself if you want to go down that route. >> I unfortunately >> that's the route you're going to go a crime. >> You have committed a crime? >> No, I'm not. >> Sir, your tag is showing suspended. >> No, this New York. >> You have no insurance? >> So, here's how we resolve this. Listen, show me proof of insurance and we're done. It's a very simple process. I'm not drivers refusing to cooperate. >> Supervisor down here. >> Refusing to give any information. >> Supervisor down here, please. >> Get your supervisor down. >> I am the supervisor, sir. >> Unreadable. >> I don't answer questions. >> I don't need that, sir. >> Yes, you do. >> No, I don't. >> I don't answer. >> Sovereign citizen. I need a unit. >> Refusing to ID. We get 14. >> I don't ask question. I copied sovereign citizen that you need additional unit. >> Sir, I'm explaining this. >> Yeah, I don't know. My radio. Can you run the >> What is your reasonable articul? >> Sir, I already told you what my suspicion was. >> I don't Your tag is coming back. >> Just be advised, your traffic is unreadable. Traffic police bravo 10 confirming the tag is suspended based on no insurance. Correct. >> Correct. The James Mar suspended as well. >> Sir J. >> Are you James? >> Are you James? >> James question. >> Sir, let me let me explain this to you. I really don't want to go down this road with having to take you out of the car for failure to identification. Sir, the window will come down. >> No. >> Okay. >> Don't be reaching for anything in the car. >> Reach for anything. >> I don't answer questions. >> Okay. Well, you're going to have to give me your information, sir. By Florida law. >> I don't sir. >> Okay. Let me guess. You're traveling, right? You're not driving a vehicle. >> Don't ask questions. >> Okay. Well, I need your ID. >> Your tag is suspended. You have no insurance. And it says according to you, according to the DMV, your your your driver's license is suspended. >> Okay. So, >> you really want to go to jail over something silly like this? >> When it could just be a ticket, >> is that what you really want to do? >> Sir, I'm asking as politely as I can for your information. [snorts] >> I do not answer question. Well, sir, you you have to >> I do not answer a question. >> All right, step out of the car. Nope. >> I'm Sir, I'm giving you a lawful reason to step out of the vehicle. >> Sir, if you don't step out of the vehicle, you're going to be escorted from the vehicle. >> Okay, you're going to be escorted from the vehicle. I really don't want to do that. James, >> do not answer questions. >> I understand that. >> Do not answer questions. >> Give me your insurance card and show me your insurance is valid. car. >> Hey, Ben. >> Can you put your car in front of >> Don't be reaching for anything in the car. No. Get your hand out of that right now. >> Don't be reaching for anything in the car. >> I need you to step out of the car, sir. >> Let's go. Step out of the car. I don't need your book on what you have to do. You know the rules for a traffic stop. >> Okay. Your license is showing suspended. Your tag is suspended. And it says you have no insurance on file. >> That's impossible, sir. >> Then show me that. >> That's impossible. >> Then show me that. >> I don't consent to arrest. I don't >> It's not a consent thing, sir. >> Yes, it is. >> I haven't committed a crime, sir. >> Sir, I'm telling you right now, you have to identify yourself to me. >> This is not Nazi Germany. And >> you're right. It's not. We're not doing that, sir. All I'm asking you for is your driver's license. >> I'm not, sir. Ready to reach and pull a gun on me. >> I'm not reaching for You're the one reaching into a bag, sir. I haven't pulled my gun out, but you're the one reaching into a bag against my orders of asking you not to do that, sir. >> All right. Are you going to step out of the car or not? >> I'm not, sir. >> Stand by with him, please. >> We're going to have to take him out of the car. >> But before police removed the sovereign citizen from his vehicle, the sergeant attempts to figure out his identity. Sergeant Glass was able to determine his identity as 40-year-old James Latimore. >> I was able to find a driver's license for you, so now I know who you are. Okay, so that's number one. Number two, you are driving with a suspended tag and a suspended no insurance, which means your car will not be allowed to be driven. Okay, that I know I'm telling you what's happening. So, the question is, do you have somebody that can come and get you in the car that can come and get you? Cuz you're not going to be able to drive. I can't hear you. You saying you got my all? >> No, I got your driver's license. So, I know who you are now. That's the easy part. The the the hard part is if you just show me proof of insurance, you're on your way. then it's nothing more than a clerical issue. I >> haven't committed a crime, sir. >> You have? No, I have not. You you you've committed a traffic infraction, sir. Crime. You throwing that at me. >> No, I'm not. I'm telling you what the state Listen, you're in Florida. You committed a traffic infraction. >> Crime. >> Okay. So, I don't understand why you just won't give me proof of insurance and be on your way. >> Committed a crime, sir. >> You have? >> No, I have not. >> You have committed a traffic infraction. You're driving with suspended plates. It is a criminal offense to drive with no insurance in the state of Florida. >> It is a criminal offense. not committed a crime. >> Are you driving the vehicle? >> I have not committed a crime. >> Have you driving the vehicle? >> I have not committed a crime. >> When was the last time you were arrested? >> I do not answer questions. >> Of course you don't. >> I don't answer questions. >> Okay. >> Just waiting to see if the bin comes back. >> Yeah, it comes back. Um, the same thing. Comes back to the 28 New York, but nothing out of Florida. You can see uh 28's the same one that you got back. >> Oh, he's not driving the car cuz he's got no insurance. >> James Latmore, >> right? >> And then uh this is out of Florida. No record. Here it is. No record. Florida. Then DSH70. No record found. Record not found for Florida. >> Okay. So, he has nothing here. >> Correct. So, the tag is all it is. Just it got suspended because there's no insurance on file. >> Right. The problem is I can't let this car drive with no insurance. >> Correct. >> If it gets to that point, we have polar wraps. We have window breakers. If it gets to that point, >> well, it's going to get to that point because he has no insurance. >> You got to have to tow the car. >> We have um we all have window. >> You have one with you? >> No, I have to. >> All right, James. Here's the scoop. Either you show me proof of insurance or you're going to have to be escorted out of the car because I'm going to have to tow the car. So, which way would you like to go? Give me a window punch. He's coming out. >> Okay, I'm going to break the window, sir. >> I really don't want to do that to you. >> The window's going to be broken. >> Okay, the window's going to be broken. >> Drive. >> Okay. >> I'm not viol if you just show me proof of insurance, we would be all set. James, >> why won't you do that? >> Sir, why won't you do that? Boy, I feel >> James. James, James, James, listen to me real quick. James, James, listen to me, dude. We don't want to break the window. We don't want to break the window. That's the last thing we want to do. >> Okay. >> Driver's window. >> Simple. Simple. >> Do that one. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Probably the passenger. All right. Hold. Dispatches confirmed it three ways. >> Ben, you ran it. It is suspended. >> Yeah. >> No insurance. >> Yeah. And I put in >> just double check and then unfortunately I don't have a choice. >> The gentleman that was on our supervisor. No provided several times just to show you transport. >> That's all I ask is his insurance. >> All you need to do is show pro insurance. >> You could be on your way. Just show us the proof of insurance. That's it. >> You're going to make it so much harder. >> I don't want to arrest you for resisting. >> I don't want to arrest you for resisting, sir. >> I really don't. All I want to do is get your insurance and get you on your way. >> Okay. That's it. >> It's not a search. >> No, it's not. All right. Well, here's what's going to happen. We're going to end up breaking your window and you're going to end up coming out of the car, sir, and going to jail for resisting. >> Is that what you really really what you want to happen today? Don't you just want to go about your business? >> Okay. Pop the window. >> What the >> It's unlocked. He's going in his bag. He's going in his bag. >> Get it. Get it. Get it. It's unlocked. >> No. unlocked. >> Get out of the car. >> Hey, under the belt. Under the belt. >> Look at him. >> He's just arrest. HEY, LOOK AT THEM. THEY'RE DOING THIS for no reason. They're doing this FOR NO REASON, Y'ALL. I'M TELLING YOU, Y'ALL. >> YO, I do not consent to arrest. I do not consent arrest. I do not consent arrest. I do not >> I do not consent to arrest. I do not consent to arrest. I do not consent to arrest. I do not under arrest. I I do not consent to the arrest. >> Just relax. >> I do not consent to the arrest. >> I do not consent to the arrest. >> Yeah. >> I do not ask questions. I do not cons I'm not consistent. >> I am not consistent arrest. I am not consisting arrest. I am not consistent arrest. I am not consistent arrest. I'm not consistent arrest. I'm not consisting arrest. I am not consisting arrest. I'm not resisting arrest. I'm not resisting arrest. I'm not resisting arrest. I am not resisting arrest. I am not resisting arrest. I'm not bravo. >> I don't resist instruction. My car, but I don't want it. >> Entry was made to the car. He's 10:15 as you can start a 1070 rotation. >> I'm sure you have our final, but we're right at the entrance of the fountains right behind Dunkin Donuts. >> You lose your jobs. All you lose and you lose your jobs. I don't consent to the search. >> Amen. I do not consent the searches. I do not consent to searching. I am not resist arrest. I do not consent to searches. I do not consent to the arrest. I do not consistent searches. I do not resist arrest. I do not consent to search. I do not consistent. I do not consider I do not consent to the arrest. I do not consent to I not resisting arrest. I do not consent to searching. I do not resist arrest. I do not consent to searching because I did not commit a crime >> because I did not commit a crime under the penal code of presented ID. Under code of present ID, you are not a crime as you speak. You guys are committing a crime as you speak. >> James continues his sovereign spiel in the back of the patrol car. >> You guys should strip your badges off now. I'm going for that insurance bond number. I guarantee you on that. I'm going for it. I'm going for my insurance bond number. I'm going for my insurance bond number. See that? Look at that. I don't consent to searches. I don't consent to searches. He's searching my vehicle. I don't consent the searches. I don't consent THE SEARCHES. YOU VIOLATING MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. YOU JUST VIOLATED MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. You just violated my constitutional rights. >> Bastard. >> I shouldn't deem this handcuff. You know I ain't commit no crime. I did not harm any of your police officers or anything. I did not arm any police officers. I not presented ID. This is not Nazi German. You just locked me up for no reason. You just You just committed You just committed frauds and treasons and you broke my window. Sweet. Oh, this is going to be sweet. I don't consent to uh searches and you searched me. You had You searched me. I didn't comply with searches. I said I didn't consent to searches. the search. >> Hang on. I'm still on. >> Oh, yeah. All right. I'm on. >> Should I keep a tag just in case or just what else am I supposed to get rid of now? Spin this up. >> Okay, here we go. Hey, I'm still on. He's still He's still just as fired up. So, I don't know how this is going to >> I mean, if he's that bad, just stick him in the cell. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. He's staying in. >> Yeah. >> Unless he takes a turn for the better, but I mean, >> ready. I'm just in the search. >> All right. My constitutional rights. >> I'm only complying on threat of life. >> I'm only complying on threat of life. >> Hey, I'm just grabbing my keys. I'm right behind the wires. I don't keep searching me. I don't consider the searches and you keep searching me. I don't consider the searches. I don't consent to searches, but yet you still keep searching me even when I don't consent. >> You bust me out and constitute my James is arrested and charged with multiple charges, including failure to exhibit driver's license and proof of insurance. According to court records, since he provided proof of his driver's license and insurance, those charges were dismissed. The district attorney's office decided not to prosecute him on his remaining charges. Next, we head across the country to California where a Reading police officer is pulling over a driver for speeding. Hi, I'm Brian Cray Police Department. The reason I stopped you is you're going about 60 mph on Pelli as you pass me. Can I see your license, registration, and insurance, please? >> I'm uh I'm not in the process of uh conducting business. >> Okay. We're not going to play that game, sir. So, if you don't want to identify yourself, I'm just going to place you under arrest and tow your vehicle. Okay. >> I'm traveling right now. >> Yeah. We're not going to do that. Okay. So, I need to see your ID. We need to see the registration and insurance on your vehicle. Okay. >> And you're a grown adult, so you're going to make an adult decision right now. Okay. So, that's up to you. >> What do you want to do? >> Okay. You're going to be placed under arrest. Step out of the vehicle. >> Out of the vehicle. >> It doesn't take long for an officer to realize he's dealing with a sovereign citizen. Don't Don't feel you, bro. Ow, that hurts. >> Don't >> let me get out. >> Don't get out. Undo your seatelt. >> Undo your seat belt and get out. >> I'm traveling, sir. >> Undo your seat belt. >> I'm not in I'm not >> Get out of the vehicle. You are under arrest. >> I'm not conducting. >> Get out of your vehicle. Out of your vehicle. Undo your seatelt. Do you understand me? Do you understand me? Undo your seat belt and step out of the vehicle. >> Ryan, do >> me over 47. I think I'm closer. >> Undo your seatelt and get out of the you, >> man. >> Undo your seatelt >> and get out of the vehicle. >> Break my arm. >> I'm not going to break your arm. I don't want to. I want you to get out of the vehicle. >> Do you not want to get your seatelt off first? >> Why don't you just get your seatelt off and we'll we'll do this. >> My arm, bro. >> No, >> dude. I'm not I'm try I'm not >> You're under business. >> You're under arrest. >> I'm not conducting business. >> You're under arrest. Okay. >> No. For what? Show me the magistrate. >> Yeah, that's where we're going to go. You don't want to identify yourself, so we're going to do that. >> Okay. >> You don't get to do this, sir. >> You don't either, bro. You don't get to go in my car and me out and break my arm. >> I'm asking you to step out. >> I'm asking you to let go of my arm. >> I'm not going to do that. >> I can't reach my seat belt. >> You can do it with your right arm. >> No, I can't. >> You can do it with your right arm. So, as soon as the other officer gets here, we're going to pull you out and put you in handcuffs. Okay. >> For traveling here. >> Yep. I'm not in the process of conducting business. 47. Take another unit. >> Get off me, dude. What the is your problem? >> Don't get the off me. >> Stop. >> GET OFF ME, DUDE. STOP. >> NO. >> WHAT THE RESIST? >> STOP. I'M NOT. >> Pull me over, DUDE. STOP. >> WHAT THE NO, DUDE. YOU'RE attacking me, dude. >> Stop. >> No. The me the off, DUDE. YOU STOP. GET THE OFF OF ME. STOP. >> NO. YOU STOP. >> STOP. >> YOU UP. >> You're not going anywhere. >> I'm not arrested. >> Under arrest. >> For what? >> You're under arrest. >> You caught me speeding. Give me a ticket so I'll be on my way. >> Stop. >> I got you. >> A nearby civilian steps in to assist the officer with the takeown. >> You are under arrest. >> Got it. >> What the? Let's get this armed. >> You're good, bro. Stop. >> I'm burning my face. >> All right. Got it. It's on my >> This one's not burning. >> I got you. >> I'm traveling. Nope. >> My car look straight on you. [snorts] So I'm traveling right now. >> You're traveling to jail right now? >> Not in the conducting. >> Not in the process of conducting business right now. >> Take me to see the magistrate. Please sit down. >> Feed in. >> Do you have any sanitizer stuff? Wipes? I don't know if I have any wives. >> I also want to thank Morgan and Morgan for being such a proud sponsor of After Hours. Every single week with After Hours, the people on these body cams, it proves just how scary and unpredictable the world can be, especially when you're out driving. And one of the scariest things that can happen to you is if you get into an accident. But it's important to realize if you've been in an accident, your case, it could actually be worth millions. And that's where Morgan and Morgan comes in. They have an army of over a thousand attorneys. And these attorneys are going to fight for what you deserve. And they have the track record to prove it. In the past few months, Morgan and Morgan won verdicts like 12 million in Florida, 26 million in Philadelphia, and 6.8 million in New York. All of these, by the way, way higher than the highest insurance offer. Even if your case isn't worth millions, why not start a claim and try to get the money that you deserve? Seeing if you have a case, all it takes eight clicks or less, and their fee is absolutely free, unless you win. They're only getting paid if you're getting paid. So, if you're injured, you can easily start a claim at forthepeople.com/hours or click the link in the description and pinned in the comments. >> This guy said, "Hey, needs help, so I pulled over." [ __ ] >> Oh, well. So, I can help. >> Yeah, me too. I'm Brian Luke. >> My You good? >> Yeah, I'm fine. Okay. >> No, I got it. I just need uh You have his ID and stuff? This guy's >> Yep. Let me run it real quick and uh >> What's his name? >> Frederick Phillips. >> How long were you struggling for with him? Oh, just actually right when you pulled up his I had him in a twist lock. >> Yeah. >> And I was just holding there waiting for another unit. >> Yeah. >> And uh he then he kept trying to pull away and he tried like trying to reach in undo his >> or undo his car his keys and then he just went crazy. >> Yeah. >> So good times. >> Good. >> He's a constitutionalist. So Oh. Oh, >> you'll have time to take care of that in jail. Yeah, >> cool. If you want to just write his name down. >> Yeah. What's your name? Or >> actually, >> I just didn't have my I left all my paper and stuff. >> Yeah, I got it. >> No, let me let me I'll do it so we don't have to all do subs and stuff. >> Cool. We'll do it until I got done. >> Okay, cool. >> Cool. What's that? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. >> Okay. What's that, sir? >> Okay. Yeah, it's going to Your car's going to get towed. >> So, really nothing. >> What's going on? >> Actually, hold on. >> You good? I'm good. >> I got citizens stopping to help. You know, >> that's how desperate I looked. >> What was the guy doing? >> Yeah. >> So, what do you need? >> I need to be seen. See the magistrate and show. >> Show my victim. Where's my victim right now? >> Me? >> I'm just traveling. >> Yeah, you're traveling to jail. >> I'm not in the process of conducting business. I'm a private American. >> Okay, cool. >> No. >> Anything else? You're under arrest. >> Ready to see the judge? >> Yeah. Whenever the jail gets you over to the jail or to the judge. Absolutely. >> Be able to see me right now. >> Perfect. >> Sounds good. Yeah. >> All right. >> Thanks, brother. >> Yep. No problem. >> The man was identified as 38-year-old Frederick Phillips. Police booked him into the county jail after he was medically cleared from the hospital. Frederick was later charged with resisting an officer. He since pleaded not guilty. At the time of this recording, his case is still pending in the court system. Now, we head to a New Mexico public library where a sovereign citizen's refusing to wear a face mask. At the time, there was a mask mandate by the governor requiring everyone to wear a face covering in businesses. A loss cruis's crisis intervention coordinator arrives to escort the man out of the building. >> Hello. >> Hello. >> How is everybody doing? >> I'm doing well. Hi. >> What's going on? >> I don't know. I I I was here. I was trying to conduct some business. I was trying to get some things printed up and they ended up kicking me off of the uh the computers that I had access to. >> Okay. >> And I just needed to print up four pieces of paper >> and she's trying to tell me that I I have to wear and demand me to wear a mask to to use any facilities or anything in here. >> You have to wear a mask. There's a governor's mandate, sir. >> Okay. But that's not law. >> Okay. >> And did you or did you not >> swear a note to the Constitution or did you swear not to >> Can I ask you a question so we can cut through all of this? Is this really worth it to go through all of this for four pieces of paper when you can just put a face covering on? >> Isn't it crazy that I'm being discriminated against? You're asking me, >> sir, I'm the I'm the wrong person to argue cuz I've lost three family members to co. So, I'm not the right person to argue. >> I'm sorry that that that you that you've lost family members. >> There's a there's a way to handle this. You can just wear a face covering or you can leave, sir, and go somewhere else that doesn't require you to wear it. But this is a city building. Uh, what are your You don't have any stripes on your arm. >> No, I'm a police officer, sir. >> Okay. >> Do you have a sergeant that I can speak with? >> Sure. Let's go outside and you can speak to a sergeant. I'll call one for you cuz they don't want you in the building. Sir, >> I'd like to stand here. Just wait for the >> No, sir. You need to wear a face covering or you need to leave. I'm not going to go through this whole thing that you can put on YouTube. >> It has nothing to do with putting on YouTube. This is actually me recording. >> Please, can you please wear a face covering or can you leave? Cuz those are your two options. You can wear a face covering or you can leave. >> Okay. Would you trespass me? >> Yes, I can. And I will. And I don't want to do that because it's four pieces of paper. >> Well, actually, that's what I would like. I would like for you to trespass me so I can have the documents so I can come in. >> Do you have your ID? >> I don't ID unless I commit a crime. >> Okay. Well, you're trespassing. That's a crime. >> That's not a crime. >> It is. >> It's a statuto violation. >> Why do we need to go down this route? Just wear a face covering. >> Why is it that whenever I talk about my rights, my constitutional rights, you want to >> Sir, here's your uh >> to to step over. >> I'm going to give you I'm going to give you an opportunity, okay? Because your constitutional rights >> and your argument standing right here is actually going to get you in handcuffs and arrested. >> So here's your options. >> Put in jail. >> I will take you to jail if you'd like. >> You'll take me to jail if I like. >> Yes. Or you can just wear a face covering. >> You understand that I'm American State National? >> I don't. Sir, whatever imaginary thing that you think that you don't have to follow laws, that's your prerogative. >> Mand mandatory governor signing something mandatory is not law. So, are you going to wear a face covering or not, sir? The >> Constitution stays. >> Sir, are you going to put on a face covering or not? >> You know what? How about if I step outside and I'll wait for your sergeant to get here? >> Let's head right outside. >> Absolutely. >> Yes, let's do that. >> Because now I'm leaving because I was threatening you were going to arrest me. >> Yeah, I will. If you refuse to leave, I will arrest you. There's no threat. That's going to happen. >> And the trespass was because why? >> Because you're not wearing a face covering. >> And that's a criminal offense. >> They can ask you to leave or refuse service to you. >> That's a criminal offense. The criminal offense is that they've asked you to leave. If you refuse to do so, that's trespassing. >> Criminal would mean that I would actually >> and that's fine. That's you can. >> So your definition, >> you know what? I'm wrong. You know everything. I don't know anything. Let's go outside. >> Of course not. >> Okay. >> It sounds like somebody needs to be schooled a little bit. >> You know what I mean? >> Well, I'm glad that you picked a a library to have this argument. >> You know what's funny is that it's a public place. >> Okay. >> I I want to be in public. >> That's fine. Can you call your surgeon? >> Yeah, let's go outside and I'll call him. Don't tell him. I'd like to get here. >> I'm not going to argue semantics. Let's go outside. Okay, >> there we go. So, >> do you want him trespassed where he can't come back? >> Okay. So, you're going to need to provide your ID, sir, cuz I'm going to fill out a trespassing. >> I'll give you my name. >> Okay, that's fine. >> Steven Mcnol. >> Steven. You're going to have to spell that last name for me. >> Magnol. M A C K M I L L E R. >> There you go. >> And I'll also like for you to get the names of these individuals that were that ended up calling. >> Do you spell Steven with a V or a P? Okay. >> What's your birthday, sir? >> I don't need a birthday. >> Okay, I'm going to give you another opportunity to think this over. Cuz right now, what's happening? You're being trespassed from this building. >> In order for me to issue you a trespass, you have to identify yourself by your name and date of birth or your social security number or your ID. >> I I told you my name. >> I need your date of birth as well, sir. >> Were you born here in New Mexico? I don't answer any more questions. >> Okay. All right, sir. So, what's going to happen is you're going to be trespassed from this building. >> Oh, yeah. I love that. >> You're not allowed to come back, including the parking lot. So, when we conclude here, you're going to have to leave. >> But I want I want that trespass. >> Okay. You're not going to get the trespass card. They are cuz you're being advised and given a trespass warning. >> There's no tip. No, >> you're not being criminally cited. No. >> Exactly. So, this isn't is a crime. Look, I didn't commit a crime and you're over here trying to trespass me. You see that? You're you're trespassing because they're asking you to leave. >> I know, but just because they're asking me to leave doesn't mean >> My suggestion is you would need to talk to the city manager and the mayor because they said >> talk to your sergeant. >> Okay. When we're done here? >> No, that's not when we're done. I would like to speak to him before we're done. >> No, you can talk. You can walk across the street and ask for >> So now So now you're refusing as an officer to call in your sergeant whenever his >> central. Yeah, I am. You can walk right across the street and go talk to the sergeant if you'd like. >> Will walk across the street to copy him. >> I'm not going to go search for him. I asked for him to come. >> Well, you're going to need to leave the process. >> So So it's not your So it's not your uh So it's not your policy when somebody that you are talking to >> First name Steven, last name Mac Miller. M >> M I L E R. >> I'm an American State National. Do you understand the difference between American state? >> I don't care. Whatever imaginary thing you It's not imaginary. >> That's fine, man. >> Whatever American thing that says you don't have to follow the rules or whatever, that's cool, man. >> It's our sovereignty right that we don't have to abide by mandatory >> dictatory laws. >> Yeah, that's what he said. Is this really worth it? Does it cause all this? >> What's funny is that >> 863 746. >> Is Was it Was it worth >> Was it worth >> to be sent to the back of the >> You're You're not Rosa Park, man. >> I'm on three. >> Hey, Bob, can you come to the library? There's a sovereign citizen that would like to speak with me. >> Oxymoron. >> Yeah, it'll be a few minutes. I'm in C in a meeting. >> Okay. It's going to be a few minutes. He's busy. >> Okay. Well, we'll wait here now. >> No, you're going to you're going to go wait on the when I finish identifying you, you're going to wait on the sidewalk. You cannot be on the property. You're being trespassed. I'm telling you right now. >> I'm waiting to speak to the sergeant. >> You can wait on the sidewalk. You cannot wait here. >> Can't just kick me off here. >> Yes. >> I'm going to kick you, officer. >> Only, >> can I get his O line and SOC? Can you do me a favor and give me your uh your badge number? >> 863. The last four. He keeps talking over me. >> Thanks, What's this now? I'm liable for what? >> Well, you you can be held personally liable for violating my constitutional rights. >> Go ahead. >> By all means, do what you got to do, but you need to leave the property, sir. >> Okay. Can I get your name? >> Milks. MKS. And my badge number is 863. >> 863. And who was the supervisor that >> McCord >> McCord? >> Do you have any idea what his ID number is? >> Yeah. 746. >> McCord. Okay. >> Yes, sir. >> Well, you definitely be receiving something in the mail. >> That's absolutely fine. I just need you to leave, sir. Please. >> So, this this is it. I don't get any paperwork. No, sir. >> Can I get a report number? >> I'm not doing a report on this, sir. >> You're not. >> Unless you'd like a report. Do you want a report? >> Yeah. Well, that's what I was looking for. I need a report number. >> That's fine. >> And I actually asked you to to to grab their names so I know who they are so I can hold them responsible. >> You can call the library and get it. I'm not going to give you their information. >> Well, they're the ones that are >> That's fine. >> They're the ones. So, you don't care to identify the people that are >> Not at all. That's just I'm just a bad cop that way. 863 Central. >> So, you're a bad cop that way? >> I'm just a bad cop. I do bad investigations. Let me get you a case number and you can get out of here. Okay. >> Can you give me a case number? Do you have a business card or anything? >> Can I get a case and tips? I don't. I'm going to write it on this paper for you cuz I ran out of business cards. >> Okay, sounds good. >> Hey, it's your right to record, brother. So you are trespassing me of the public >> and you're agreeing to that? >> Yes, sir. >> So you know you understand that's abusive power, right? >> Yep. >> File the lawsuit. >> Go ahead. >> Here you go, sir. It's LCPD20 and then 22-5707. My name's Mils 863. And there's a non-emergency number if you have any questions. >> You got you got some [ __ ] >> I do. It is an unfortunate thing I've had to deal with. >> I've had to deal with that my own life. >> Well, you have a good day, sir. Thanks, >> man. I can't wait to to see you in the park. You too, man. Thank you so much. >> Have a good one. Really good. >> All right. Got your 15 minutes of fame. Is it Is it just Tuesdays or what? >> I think it's just Tuesdays every day. >> Jeez Louise. >> Steven requesting a police report forces officer Mils to obtain a complaint's name and contact information. In fear of retaliation, Officer Mils writes the library contact information instead of disclosing any of the manager's personal information. >> Just so I got it straight. >> Kind of the same thing he was with me. I'm sure he didn't have a mask. You asked him, "Can you please put one on?" >> Yes, he offered him one. >> You're the first one that asked. >> We offered him. Uh we did give him. >> He even offered him. >> Yeah, we can keep them and we can get to one. Um if you refuse another one, keep saying that I don't have >> Yeah, the American nationalist. Okay. >> Um >> apparently because I don't sue people all the time on my own sense, which I don't. >> Yeah. Um, I don't know the law. >> Oh, well, >> I did also give them alternatives, you know, for not wearing a mask like you did for all of our patrons if they >> let me uh I ran out of criminal trespass parts on my person. Let me grab you one. It's >> been a week. >> Yeah, it's been a while. >> I'll fill one out and I'll bring it back. Even if I got to run across the street, I might need to to get another one. >> Okay. >> Uh, but I'll fill it out and come back. But I think he left. He didn't even want to wait for the sergeant, so I think >> No, no, he has to upload that. Yeah, that's got to get there real quick. Get on YouTube real quick. So, well, I guess we'll see each other in court if I don't see you when I drop off the trespass card. So, all right. Well, y'all have a good one. >> There were no court records online indicating Steven sued the Los Cusus Police Department or the city library. However, records show Steven was arrested in April 2024 for obstruction or retaliation in terroristic threats against a judge. Next, we're in St. Johns, Florida, where an officer conducts a traffic stop on a driver for excessive speed and an obstructed license plate. >> Morning, Deput County Sheriff's Office. Two reasons of stopping you. One, Pine Island speed limit's 25. You're going 36. >> Okay. That's still 10 miles per hour over the post speed limit. It's 25. >> No, it's not 25. >> So, I was going at 35. I told >> So, that's 10 over You just told me that you're going 10 over the supposed speed limit. >> No, I didn't. >> Yes, you did. You said you're going 35, right? >> Yeah, but I >> That's a 25. >> 35. >> No, ma'am. It's It The whole thing's 25. >> Okay. >> The other issue is your license plate cover is illegal. You can't have a tinted license plate cover over your license plate. Before I ask for any documentation, are there any weapons in the vehicle? Guns, knives, hang grenades, tomahawk missiles? No, sir. >> Okay. I need your driver's license, registration, proof of insurance from you. >> Okay. I uh can I just go to my >> No. I need your driver's license, registration, proof of insurance. >> Okay. >> I am not going to ask again. >> I'm not driving. >> You're not traveling. Stand by. Step out. >> Are you serious? >> Get out of the car. >> Oh my god. >> Start being test 9 code one. >> Okay. I'm right now, guys. I got one secure so far. I'm on my way to work. >> She advised she was traveling, not driving. 248. All right. Well, right now you're under arrest. Prepare to identify. You were you were told to give me your license during a lawful detainment for a traffic violation, multiple traffic violations. You advised you were not going to give it to me and that you're not driving, you're traveling. While you're sitting in the driver's seat of this vehicle operating on the highways of Florida. All right. Do you have any questions for me? >> I got to make one phone call, sir. >> No. >> I have to make a >> Absolutely not. >> I have to call my lawyer. Do you have a driver's license? Are you suspended? >> No. >> No. To which one? >> I have to make a phone call, sir. >> Okay. Walk back to my car. >> Nope. Go to tow your car as well. >> Do you have any weapons on you guys? Knives, hang grenades, top missiles. Anything going to poke poke me, stab me, stab me? >> No. >> Do you have any narcotics on you? >> No. >> You're going to go and get checked when we get down to the jail. If there's anything on you, it becomes a felony when we get to the jail. >> I don't have anything on me. >> Okay. Lean up against my car. Put your forehead on that glass. Spread your feet more. >> Is there anything in that vehicle I didn't know about? >> No, sir. >> Okay. You going to give me a first name or anything? >> Have a seat. >> The officer is able to identify the sovereign citizen as Derlin Tavarez. >> 4 to 26. John's. I found my driver in prior contact. She is very much suspended. I had her call. Back office never get off screen for record. After confirming Derlin is the registered owner of the vehicle, the officer conducts a search still switch back primary 46. John's back on the ground button. Where is it? Just the release. 40 28 trunk's broken. Should I turn on real quick? car's brok. [snorts] Mhm. >> [snorts] >> I'm not driving. I'm traveling. You >> heard that, >> dude. So, just 36 and the 25. Not the end of the world. License plate cover. Not the end of the world. >> Actually, I was going 35. Okay. So, you admit you're going Okay. I need driver license proof for insurance. >> I don't I need your driver's license register for insurance. I'm not going asked again. Give me your driver's license. I'm not driving. I'm traveling. Walk around the car. Get out. like to work or something. >> Uh well, I pulled I lit her up there and then she slammed on the brakes, turned in here real hard and she's like, "Can I just go to work?" Like, "No. So, but we pulled her over recently, luckily, in the same vehicle. So, I just looked at the vehicle. Oh, she's in the medical field. That's super comforting. Jesus, they let delusional people provide medical care. But I got a tow truck on the way. So, I just expected her to resist getting out of the car and then she didn't. So, appreciate you. >> Yeah, I'm a >> Yeah, I think she's like a home healthcare nurse. That's terrifying. >> No, that's not >> It's not the same thing. >> It's not really >> Yeah, it's not the same thing, but >> Somebody's got to do it, man. They do They do important stuff. Got a medical marijuana container, but there's nothing in it. Can't have nothing nice. They do. Ah, cool. He's got the memo travelers. Hey, she doesn't believe she needs a drop. So, DDLSR second or subsequent and refusal ID. not drive. It's been a minute since I had somebody pull the I'm not driving. I'm traveling. >> I've never >> up here this We got a couple like frequent sovereigns. >> Where are those? I like those. >> H the shoes. All >> A L T A M A S. She's got her social security card on her. She believes in that. It's not a driver's license. >> Oh, it is super suspended, dude. She's got like nine or 10 suspensions on it. All for non-payment. So, she keeps getting tickets and not paying them because she doesn't believe that the laws apply to her. >> I think there should be like, you know how that HTTO, there should be one that's STTO, sovereign traffic offender. So, every time they get stopped, it's a felony. Eventually, they'll learn. >> Hey, >> driver's licenses are required. Driving is a privilege, not a right. >> Not today. >> Not today. >> You work at C5 today? No. >> Okay. Bunch of random candy in. All right. All right. No drugs. Yay. She got like four different purses in this purse. >> During the transport to jail, Derlin still doesn't understand why she's in custody. That says 35. That sign up. >> I didn't pull you over for this. I pulled you over for that. It's 25 on Pine Island. >> I was going at the season and I was coming to a stop. >> Oh, wait. Wait. Look at that. That says 25. That's crazy. >> Blows my mind. >> No, you weren't. >> Yes, I do. >> Okay. >> It's 25. You're going 36. How you caught me at 36 >> on radar >> stalker duel front antenna. >> Okay. But I don't understand that. I was already >> I didn't ask you to understand it. I told you. >> No. >> Okay. >> That's fine. Your citation will say what the speed was. >> Okay. >> Along with driving with no license and your charges for resisting >> the speed limit that you don't believe in because you don't think you need a license. Derlin was charged with several charges, including driving while her license was suspended and resisting an officer without violence. She pleaded no contest and was sentenced to $323 in court fines. Thanks for watching this week's episode. Law Crime After Hours is researched, it's written, and it's produced by Jordan Chicone. Video editing is done by the Mikey Dininger. I'm Sam Goldberg. We'll see you next week. Is was it was it worth Ros was it worth three to be sent to the back? You're >> you're not Rosa Park, man. >> I'll step out of the vehicle for $500. >> You can search me for $500 cash. I'll get in the car for $500 >> and he's going to be recording what he's going to face. >> Now you've met the sergeant and you can go to jail. >> YOU'VE JUST VIOLATED MY CONCEPTUAL RIGHTS. Whether they're full-blown sovereign citizens [music] or just people who believe the law doesn't apply to them, law enforcement is dealing with very stubborn suspects more [music] and more. And today we are taking a look at five recent arrests involving drivers who were especially uncooperative. [music] Welcome to Sidebar presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Now, if you follow us here on Sidebar, you know we've done stories about sovereign citizens before. this loose collection of people who believe that the US Constitution is invalid and that the laws and law enforcement don't have any jurisdiction over them. But when they're stopped by officers, they quickly learn that that is just not true. Shocking. Shocking. I know. All right, so we want to start this off in Edgewater, Florida, where a motorcyclist with a ironic name was stopped July 30th of this year for running a stop sign. And as the officer gets out of his patrol car, you can hear Andre Narcissist. Yes, like narcissist blasting music. >> Let me turn this on. I'm native, so I'm going to record all this. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I need your driver's license, registration, and proof of insurance. >> Why? Why do you need my driver's license? First of all, why are you pulling me over? >> Nope. I need your driver's license, your registration. >> Proof of insurance. >> I study law, okay? >> And I'm not a dummy, and I know everybody down at that office. You got about 2 seconds to give me your information or you're going to go to jail. It's as simple as that. >> Oh, wait. Hold on. Hold on. I want you to repeat that. >> 2 seconds. >> I got 2 seconds or I'm going to go to jail. >> I need your driver's license, your registration, and your proof of insurance or you're going to go into handcuffs and you're going to go to jail. >> You know that's illegal. >> It is not. >> It actually is. It actually is. Can you call your supervisor? Call your supervisor down there. Nope. >> No, you will call your supervisor down there. Nope. >> I know my law. >> You don't want to give me your stuff? You cannot touch him. >> Okay. >> No, you cannot touch me. >> Call your supervisor. >> Call your supervisor. Why are you cuffing me? What the ARE YOU DOING? WHAT are you doing to me, bro? What the I HAD NECK SURGERY. >> I don't care, dude. >> What the are you doing? OH MY GOD, BRO. Oh my god. Call Mayor Diesel and call your supervisor right now. You are 100% absolutely wrong for what you just did to me. >> I'm going to file. You can slow everybody down. >> I'm going to file suit. Call your supervisor. >> The address of Jan L. >> Call your supervisor. You just committed a crime. A felony. >> Okay. >> Unbelievable. You drew me. I've had neck surgery. >> Yep. Well, you shouldn't have been resisting me. I didn't resist you. I asked you why'd you stop me? >> Wow. I'm going to sue the out of you. >> Okay. Good luck. >> No, I will win. It's $100,000 for every violation. You are touching me without your supervisor present. >> Yeah, cuz I'm doing my job, buddy. >> No, it's not your job. You're actually violating my rights. No, >> I'm not. >> And on top of that, I'm Native American. >> Okay. >> Yeah. You know, you're not even allowed to touch me, bro. >> That's not how it works. >> You're a commercial entity. You're not even a freaking part of the my land, dude. You're you're a commercial entity. Okay. >> Narcissist was charged with resisting without violence. And here's the interesting part about it. The officer let him know on the ride to jail that if he just provided his license, the officer wouldn't have even given him a ticket. Now he's out on bond and awaiting a court hearing next month. Next, we're in Valuchia County where the sheriff wasn't really happy with a man's conduct during a traffic stop. And we don't know if Juan Rivera necessarily identifies as a sovereign citizen, but he's following pretty much the same playbook very closely. So, we thought we'd include him in this list nonetheless. A Valuchia County deputy pulled him over on May 16th, 2024 for a broken tail light. Watch what happened. Hello, Sheriff's Office. Do you got your driver's license on you? >> Okay. I pulled you over cuz your tail lights out. The one on your left. Your left tail light. It's completely out. >> All right. I need your driver's license and your registration because I'm asking you for it. This is a traffic stop. >> Yeah. >> I'm not giving you a verbal warning. I'm telling you. All right. So, this guy not wanting to identify. He's not going to step out of the vehicle. I can tell you that right now. He's recording uh his tail lights up. His buckle and he's going to be recording. >> Deputy Carol office. Can turn that down. Do you have your license, registration, and insurance for the vehicle? >> You the supervisor? >> Do you have the license? the registration and insurance for the Are you the supervisor? >> Go ahead and have >> Are you the supervisor? >> Are you failing to identify yourself on a legal traffic stop? >> He's asking >> I asked for a supervisor he is being >> No, I asked for a supervisor. >> Y'all refus to be a supervisor. [laughter] >> Refusing to identify, refusing. You refuse their supervisor over a freaking tail light out >> and you refuse their supervisor. You send you send another one that way. >> Listen, >> it's a traffic stop. >> And Rivera was insistent that a supervisor be called out to the scene. But when the sergeant got there, Rivera was skeptical. >> You want to speak to a supervisor? >> I'm the supervisor. So, do you have your driver's license and registration? >> Supervisor with your parent. >> Does that help you? >> No, you don't. How do I know you're a supervisor? >> Right there. >> Okay. Well, I'm the supervisor. I'm Sergeant Leven with the sheriff's office. How can I help you? >> Call the police station. >> Okay. You have your driver's license and registration. >> Get out of the truck. >> Why? I'm verifying. >> I don't care. >> You're the supervisor. I just want to get out of the truck. Wait. >> No, we're not. Okay, I'll give you >> Get out of the truck. >> Get out. Let me get out. I'm getting out. I'm getting Relax. Don't slam me. It's fine. It's fine, bro. Listen. Relax. Relax. >> This arm is broken. >> I don't care. Put your hands on. >> I just wanted to talk to the supervisor. >> No, you didn't. You want to play tonight? >> No. >> Can I tell you what? You can't. >> Is he going to watch that arm? Watch that one. Photo. >> That arm is broken. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Can I Can you just time your front, please? >> No. >> This one is drinking. >> Quit resisting and you won't have a problem. >> I'm resisting, dog. >> Look, can I just explain myself to you? >> Nope. >> Please, let me just talk to you. >> There's rules on how stuff works. >> He told me that it the light was out. I did it. So, they're not properly working. >> S I don't have nothing. >> Okay. What? Whatever. Whatsoever going on. I just I'm tired. >> I'm just trying to get home. >> That's all. >> Now you're going to go to jail and then you can go home. >> All right. Please. >> Because this isn't a game. >> I'm not trying to pull a game. >> Okay. Well, congratulations. Now you've met the sergeant and you can go to jail. >> Rivera was booked on a charge of resisting without violence. But not long after. Valuchia County Sheriff Mike Chitwood shared this body cam video on the department's social media in order to call out Rivera for claims he made after the arrest. Transparency. That's why we have these body cams. And in a sworn citizen complaint, Rivera accused the deputies of slamming him against his truck, slamming him into the ground, choking him. Yeah, I got to tell you, I don't really see any of that. If you want to malign my deputies, if you want to destroy their character, if you want to try to commit unrest in this community by absolutely lying, we're going to out you and we're going to arrest you. >> Less than 3 weeks after his first arrest, Rivera was arrested again. This time with a fresh haircut. >> Don't resist. >> Stop it. >> I'm not I'm not running nowhere. What's going on? >> You're warrant for your arrest for perjury. >> What's perjury? >> What is that? Can you >> making a false statement? >> Are you kidding? Take please. >> Perjury for what? >> That's just what the warrant's for. You'll have to talk to the courts about that. >> Wow. >> So, a true statement that I have recorded from his arrest. >> Can I show you my my video officer, please? >> You're going to want to talk to your lawyer about that. All right. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Can I get some shoes? >> Yeah. Can you get some You see him have some sandals in the >> What do I do from here? >> He has a $50,000 bond. um >> $50,000. >> So he'll be up at the county branch. >> No, because the police don't want to get in trouble. >> Rivera's first arrest misdemeanor charge. This one a felony. Rivera ended up getting out on a $500 bond, not 50,000. Both cases still pending in Valuchia County. All right, now let's talk about a case out of Melbourne, Florida in August of 2022. A Bard County deputy on a motorcycle was trying to do a traffic stop for an expired tag. And the first part of the body cam footage is muted, but the officer turns on the mic as the driver sets up his own recording. >> I'm not a driver. >> Okay. Well, you are driving on the roadways in the state of Florida, so I need your driver's license or your identification. >> Like I said, I'm not driving. >> Okay. Well, I am conducting a lawful stop. You are required to present me your identification. So, I'll take whatever identification you have. >> Okay. I I don't carry identification unless someone's going to pay me for my name. My name is registered as my property on the record limit. >> Okay. >> So >> So what's your name? >> Okay. Uh I'm just recording this for the record. I'm not driving or operating a vehicle for hire on the roadways and my name is my private property. And if you want my name, I'm sufficiently accepting your offer. Just so I can honor so you would arrest me. So my conditional acceptance for my name to you is give me $500 my name. 13 Malvin 1094, please. >> Sir, you will be arrested if you do not present some type of identification. >> Really? >> Excuse me. >> I said really? >> Yes, sir. Really? >> Why do I need to provide identification? >> You are operating a road a vehicle on the roadways in the state of Florida. >> Sir, with all due respect, you're behind the drivers in the driver's seat behind the steering wheel. >> I've been driving and this is in the driver's seat. Now, if you want to try and prove in court that I'm driving or operating a vehicle for higher than a crime, but I'm stating for the record that I'm not driving or operating a vehicle, >> sir. I've been behind you since you were on Babcock. Okay. >> You've been in that seat the entire time. >> Your script from your Fraternal Order of Police. I'm telling you on the record, I'm not driving or operating. That's that's an issue. And if you want my name, it's $500 cash. >> Okay. Go ahead and step out of the vehicle for me, >> sir. I can step out of the vehicle. >> You can step out of the vehicle for me. >> I'll step out of the vehicle for $500. Step out of the vehicle. Roll over on your stomach. >> Okay, sir. At this time, you are being placed under arrest. You will be registered as a John Doe until you are properly identified. >> But I already said I'm not driving or operating. >> Okay. Well, yes, sir, you are. Turns out the man's name is Ronald Russell Farnham. And we didn't pay $500 for that information. But Farnham's passenger, who turns out to be his girlfriend, looks mortified after all of this. >> Ma'am, do you have a valid driver's license? >> I do. >> May I see it, please? >> I'm operating on the honor system and you're not honoring now. You're in dishonor and I will prove on the record in court that my name is my property. I've registered it with the county recorder more than 2 years ago. So, I hope you're still recording because I have my case number, my filing number, and my >> 13 to 50. Come over here, please. >> And I was not pulling over. I'm coming here to the printer because they have a print order for me I'm picking up. So, I did not pull over. >> All right. I try to get >> down, man. >> I can't. >> Royalty side. Me and these are >> Wait, wait. You're hurting me. >> Royalty side. >> Yeah, I know. But these cops are on two. You're hurting. >> All right. >> My phone is still recording. >> Yes, sir. Make sure your phone come. >> Okay. Well, here. As a matter of fact, >> I already conditionally accepted all of his offers for my schedule and he's in >> Anything on your person before you going back in my car? >> This will be his right here. >> All right. Anything on your person? I'll answer any questions for $100 a question. >> Answer anything on your first answer that question for $100 for me. >> You don't have the right. You can search me for $500 cash. I'm conditionally accepting all of your offers for my fee schedule. >> There's no charge for that. >> And you can Yeah, there is. I I'm in honor. >> Okay. >> Are you're trained on this at the Fraternal Order of Police? I'm an expert on honor and I'm in honor. My name is my property. >> Anything on your birthday to come? >> You can you can search me for $500. I'm going to need your name because I'm going to charge you. This is That's my card. >> I did not give you permission to search me without payment. You're violating my rights and my ability to conduct commerce. You're viol You're in dishonor now. >> Stop resisting. >> I'm not resisting. >> I'm not resisting. If I'm conditionally accepting all your offers for my fee schedule, you know, I'm telling you, you're going into I'll get in the car for $500. >> No, you're forcing me. I'll get in >> Get in the car. >> I already conditionally accepted your offer for money. >> Get in the car. in the car. >> You're assaulting and battering me and you're violating my rights. >> I conditionally accept your offer of my peace. >> No, dude. You can't put me in jail. You can't do that. You guys are going into dis. >> Now, I want you to get this. Farnham was released on bail, ironically, $500 worth, but he failed to show back up to court on charges of driving with an expired registration and resisting without violence. So, a warrant was issued for his arrest and his bond was up to $10,000. A public defender represented Farnm in court, but Farnm, who sometimes calls himself reonymous, filed some motions of his own, like this order to cease and desist. He wrote, "Renonymous is soulpossessing flesh and blood and not a sovereign citizen, as that term is an oxymoron invented by the Fraternal Order of Police to confuse people during the operation of the police's perfected racket." And when the state sent Farnum a notice to appear for docket sounding, he apparently sent it back with rejected written across it. Well, after more court shenanigans, a competency hearing was ordered for Farnum. And a mental health expert wrote up a report that said Farnum would need mental health treatment before he would be competent to go to trial. And I want to talk about the competency report because there was interesting testimony from a Dr. Jeffrey Williamson. And it says, quote, in his testimony, Dr. Williamson acknowledges the difficulty in distinguishing between a sovereign citizen who is merely choosing not to participate and who is misusing language in a bizarre manner for the purposes of delay and subversion of the process and an individual who as a result of mental illness is behaving inappropriately and unable to cooperate with counsel or take part in the proceedings. Notwithstanding that difficulty, Dr. Williamson testified that in his opinion, the defendant suffers from a delusional disorder. So for now, Farnm will continue to receive mental health treatment. Moving on, another simple traffic stop that led to much more serious charges. This time in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. It is May of 2023, and a police sergeant on routine patrol spots a car with a New York license plate. And when dispatch runs it, it comes back as being unregistered and not having insurance. >> Hey buddy, can you wear your window down for me? >> I can't hear you. You need to roll your window down for me. Just a little bit more for me, please. >> Go ahead. Give you another unit. >> You can hear me. >> Okay. May I see your driver's license, please? Registration and proof of insurance. The reason I'm stopping you, sir, is your tax show suspended for no no insurance? >> No, sir. I think >> I'm sorry. >> Sir, committed a crime. >> Okay, we're not going to play that game today. Okay. After he asked for the officer's name and badge number, the driver, who we now know is James Latimore, placed a yellow constitutional rights card against the window, saying he won't be answering any questions. >> Show me proof of insurance and we're done. It's a very simple process. >> Drivers refusing to cooperate. Supervisor down here, >> refusing to give any information. >> Supervisor down here, please. >> Supervisor down here. >> I am the supervisor, sir. >> Unreadable. I don't answer questions. >> I don't need that, sir. >> Yes, you do. >> No, I don't. >> I don't answer questions. >> Sovereign citizen. >> I need a unit refusing to ID. You get 14. >> I don't answer questions. >> I copied sovereign citizen. >> Sir, I'm extra J. Are you James? >> Are you James? James, >> do not ask a question. >> Sir, let me let me explain this to you. I really don't want to go down this road with having to take you out of the car for failure to identification. Sir, the window will come down. >> No. >> Okay. >> Don't be reaching for anything in the car. >> Don't be reaching for anything. I am here. >> I don't answer questions. >> Okay. Well, you're going to have to give me your information, sir. By Florida law. >> I sir. Okay. And let me guess, you're traveling, right? You're not driving a vehicle. Don't ask questions. >> Okay. Well, I need your ID. >> Your tag is suspended. You have no insurance. And it says according to you, according to the DMV, your your your driver's license is suspended. >> Okay. So, >> you really want to go to jail over something silly like this, >> but it could just be a ticket. >> Is that what you really want to do? All right. Step out of the car. N >> I'm sir, I'm giving you a lawful reason to step out of the vehicle. Sir, if you don't step out of the vehicle, you're going to be escorted from the vehicle. >> Okay? You're going to be escorted from the vehicle. I really don't want to do that. James, >> you're not asking questions. >> I understand that. >> Give me your insurance card and show me your insurance is valid. >> Hey, Ben. >> Can you put your car in front of >> Don't be reaching for anything in the car. No. Get your hand out of that right now. You rise in front. >> Don't be reaching for anything in the car. >> I need you to step out of the car, sir. >> Let's go. Step out of the car. I don't need your book on what you have to do. You know the rules for a traffic stop. >> Okay. Your license is showing suspended. Your tag is suspended. And it says you have no insurance on file. >> That's impossible. >> Then show me that. >> That's impossible. >> Then show me that. >> I don't consent to arrest. I don't. >> It's not a consent thing, sir. Eventually, after more back and forth, the officer is able to come back with more information. >> I was able to find a driver's license for you, so now I know who you are. Okay, so that's number one. Number two, you are driving with a suspended tag and a suspended no insurance, which means your car will not be allowed to be driven. Okay, that I know I'm telling you what's happening. So, the question is, do you have somebody that can come and get you in the car that can come and get you cuz you're not going to be able to drive? I can't hear you. He's saying you got my all. >> No, I got your driver's license, so I know who you are. Now, that's the easy part. The the the hard part is if you just show me proof of insurance, you're on your way. >> Then it's nothing more than a clerical issue. >> I haven't committed a crime. So, >> you have no you you you've committed a traffic infraction, sir. >> You throwing that at me? >> No, I'm not. I'm telling you what the state Listen, you're in Florida. You committed a traffic infraction. >> A crime. >> Okay. So, I don't understand why you just won't give me a proof of insurance and be on your way. >> Committed a crime, sir. >> You have? >> No, I have not. You have committed a traffic infraction. You're driving with suspended plates. It is a criminal offense to drive with no insurance in the state of Florida. >> It is a criminal offense. >> I have not committed a crime. >> Are you driving the vehicle? >> I have not committed a crime. >> Have you driving the vehicle? >> I have not committed a crime. >> When was the last time you were arrested? >> I do not answer questions. >> Of course you don't. >> I don't answer question. >> Okay. >> The officer gives him every opportunity to get out of this, but Latimore still refuses. Give me a window punch. He's coming out. >> Okay, I'm going to break the window, sir. >> I really don't want to do that to you. >> The window's going to be broken. >> Okay, the window's going to be broken. >> Drive. >> Okay, violation. >> I'm not viol If you just show me proof of insurance, we would be all set. James, >> why won't you do that? >> Sir, why won't you do that? So, for safety, the officers decide to break Latimore's passenger window instead of the driver's side. >> Don't you just want to go about your business? >> What the? >> It's unlocked. He's going in his bag. He's going in his bag. >> Get it. Get it. Get it. It's unlocked. >> It's unlocked. Go. car. >> Get out of the car. >> Get out of the car. >> Get out of the car. >> Get out of the car. >> Let's go. >> Get out of the car. >> Hey, under the belt. UNDER THE BELT. >> LOOK AT HIM. >> HEY, THEY JUST ARRESTED. HEY, look at them. They doing this for no reason. >> They doing this for no reason, y'all. I'M TELLING YOU, Y'ALL. LISTEN. >> NO. I do not consist. I do not consider I do not consider arrest. I do not consider arrest. I do not consider arrest. I do not consider arrest. I do not consider arrest. And Latimore continues to yell that he doesn't consent to the arrest. But that's not exactly how this works, folks. On his way to the jail though, Latimore keeps up the mantra. >> I don't consent to searches. I don't consent to searches. You are violating my constitutional RIGHTS. YOU JUST VIOLATED MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. >> You just violated my constitutional rights. So, in the end, Latimore was charged with resisting an officer, and once he got insurance and showed proof of it to the state, a couple months later, the charge was dropped. Well, it's not just men in Florida claiming they can operate outside the law. It's women, too. This is equal opportunity offenders here. A St. John's County deputy pulled over Daryl Tvarez in February of this year for various traffic violations. But as soon as Tvarez said she wasn't driving, she was traveling. The deputy was done. Morning, Deputy Ran St. John's County Sheriff's Office. Two reasons I'm stopping you. One, Pine Island speed limit is 25. You're going 36. >> Okay. >> That's still 10 miles per hour over the post speed limit. It's 25. >> No, it's not 25. >> No, I was going at 35. >> So, that's 10 over. You just told me that you're going 10 over the supposed speed limit. >> No, I didn't. Yes, you did. You said you're going 35, right? >> Yeah, but I >> That's a 25. >> 35? >> No, ma'am. It's It The whole thing's 25. >> Okay. >> The other issue is your license plate cover is illegal. You can't have a tinted license plate cover over your license plate. Before I ask for any documentation, are there any weapons in the vehicle? Guns, knives, hang grenades, tomahawk missiles? No. >> Okay. I need your driver's license, registration, proof of insurance from you. >> Okay. Hi. Uh, can I just go to my >> No. I need your driver's license, registration, proof of insurance. Okay. >> I am not going to ask again. >> I'm not driving. >> You're not >> traveling. >> Stand by. >> Step out. >> Are you serious? >> Get out of the car. >> Oh my god. >> Start being test 9. Code one. Okay. John RGB right now, guys. I got one secure so far. >> I'm going to get on my way to work. She advised she was traveling, not driving. 248. >> All right. Well, right now you're under arrest. Pre identify. >> You were you were told to give me your license during a lawful detainment for a traffic violation, multiple traffic violations. You advised you were not going to give it to me and that you're not driving. You're traveling while you're sitting in the driver's seat of this vehicle operating on the highways of Florida. All right. Do you have any questions for me? >> I got to make one phone call, sir. >> No. >> I have to make a phone. >> Absolutely not. >> I have to call the lawyer. >> Do you have a driver's license? Are you suspended? >> No. >> No. To which one? >> I have to make a phone call, sir. >> Okay. Walk back to my car. >> Nope. Go to tell your car as well. >> Okay. >> Do you have any weapons on you? Guns, knives, hangs, missiles, anything that's going to poke poke me, stab me, state me? >> No. >> Do you have any narcotics on you? >> No. You're going to go and get checked when we get down to the jail. If there's anything on you, it becomes a felony when we get to the jail. >> I don't have anything on me. >> Okay. >> So, the deputy had called for backup just in case Tarz had resisted. And he explained what happened to the other deputy and you can tell he's frustrated with having to deal with so-called sovereign citizens. >> Dude, so just 36 and the 25, not the end of the world. License plate cover. Not the end of the world. >> Actually, I was going 35. Okay. Okay. So, you admit you're going, "Okay, I need your driver license transmit for insurance." >> I don't I need your driver's license registration insurance. I'm not going asked again. Give me your driver's license. I'm not driving. I'm traveling. Walk around the car. Get out. >> Coming here to work or something? >> Uh, well, I pulled I lit her up there and then she slammed on the brakes, turned in here real hard >> and she's like, "Can I just go to work?" I'm like, "No." >> It's been a minute since I had somebody pull the I'm not driving. I'm traveling. >> I've never up here. This We got a couple like frequent sovereigns. She got a social security card on her. She believes in that. She's not a driver's license. Oh, it is super suspended, dude. She's got like nine or 10 suspensions on it all for non-payment. So, she keeps getting tickets and not paying them because she doesn't believe that the laws apply to her. I think there should be like you know how that HTTO there should be one that's STTO sovereign traffic offender so every time they get stopped it's a felony eventually they'll learn hey >> driver's licenses are required driving is a privilege not a right so Tavvarz was booked for speeding having no insurance or registration for the car and having an obscured tag she pleaded no contest to the speeding charge and the other charges were dismissed she was required to pay several hundred in fines. But the story doesn't end there because according to St. John's County jail records, Javvarz was arrested again just a week later, still driving on a suspended license. Unfortunately though, we were unable to find any court records related to that arrest, so we don't have any further information. >> Going to be at Howland and Catalina. It's a blue Ford truck displaying some kind of sovereign citizen looking tag. Can you start us a second, please? Post Union treaty convention neutral neutral zone transport vehicle. That's not how this works, man. >> You know what the flag up down means? >> No. >> This a sign of distress. Hey boss, how you doing? Good. >> Not too bad. Deputy of the sheriff's office. >> I just got pulled over. >> Hey, so the reason why I'm stopping you, boss, I didn't recognize the tag unit was on your vehicle. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Do you have good drivers with you? >> There you go. I got the paperwork right here. >> Where's the paperwork at Michelle? >> Here behind your seat. >> All right. >> It's where? >> Behind my seat. It's yours. >> It's on speaker. >> Yeah, it does. >> Okay. Where's your driver's license, boss? >> No, I don't need my window now. >> I'm sorry. So, do you have a driver's license? >> Yeah, we're right there. >> Okay. What's your name, boss? I don't see your name on here. >> Can you point it to me? >> Okay, that's not how this works. Where's your uh driver name at? of anything. >> I just didn't hear the paperwork. >> Okay, sir. You talk to him, man. >> Ma'am, if he refuses to identify himself in this traffic stop, there's going to be an issue, >> sir. >> Uh-huh. >> He is identifying as a national of the power states, as you know. that removes him from your jurisdiction. >> Uh I it doesn't matter who he identifies as. He's operating a motor vehicle in the state of Florida. Ma'am, >> okay. >> What? >> Where's the county? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> 44. >> 44. How far is my second? How far are you guys? >> No, I just want to check. Ma'am, so this is what this is what's going on. The the tag on his vehicle does not appear like it's it's proper back to any state. So the appears the vehicle is unregistered. Then on top of I come up here, I'm asking for his identification documents and he's handing me a stack of papers instead of a driver's license. So, I'm concerned he might be driving without a driver's license and his vehicle might be unregistered >> on his phone right now because he signed a heart treaty and you are in violation of it right now. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Where's your What's your name, boss, >> sir? What's your name? >> Everything. Right here. >> Can I see your name, please? >> Right here. >> Where? >> Right here. >> Just point it. >> Right there. >> Where where's what's where is your name, sir? I don't see your name. >> Are you the postmaster? That's what it says. Postmaster. >> I am the postmaster. So, is your first name Mark or your last name Mark? >> No. >> So, nothing on here has your name >> right there. >> Your destiny Mark >> Dry. Is that how am I saying it? >> And what's your last name, boss? I can't see it. >> Right there. W >> What's your date of birth, sir? >> It's all right here. >> It's not on you. >> You're not telling me anything. >> All right. Well, this is the thing. If we cannot properly identify you, then there could be a potential issue for us coming up. Sir, I'm telling you that you cannot talk to us. >> Uh, well, that's fine. He doesn't necessarily have to talk to me, but he does have to obey my lawful commands. >> Sir, as you know, as you know, the terms of the Geneva Convention clearly state that you are required to have knowledge of every term. >> Hey, Murphy. >> Why is he looking at my cut? >> This is part of his job. Hey Murphy, can you just switch to me real fast? >> Who? >> What? Lieutenant who? >> Authority. >> Lieutenant who? >> Lieutenant Gilza. >> I think you mean trying to say Garza. >> Yeah. >> All right. Just hold on here. I just got to look at something real fast. >> Yes, sir. That's going to be negative. Comes back on a blue 2012 Ford registered to a lower wind the bomb out of Lake Helen expired back in 2022. >> All right, sir. This is kind of where we're at. So, I checked the uh >> Hang on. Hang on. Michelle, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Michelle, Michelle, hang on. So, this is kind of where we're at. So, I checked the VIN. The car is currently looks like it's unregistered. So, if you don't have Do you have a Florida driver's license or driver's license out another state that I can check to ensure that you're a licensed driver? >> Right there is all I got. >> Okay. Well, there's a problem. So, I tried to search you up under this. I can't find anybody, you know, I can't find you. So, if I can't verify that you're you have a valid driver's license, then how am I supposed to let you drive off? >> She's coming. >> All right. That's not going to That's not going to change anything. >> He's saying I got to have a valid driver license >> to operate a motor vehicle in the state of Florida. Yes, sir. >> Okay. Catalina. >> Yeah. >> Okay, sir. It's a it's a simple question. Do you have a valid driver's license? >> Right. Is it your middle name? >> Well, because he's got it right here. He's got paperwork in his hand. >> All we're trying to do is just identify you. That's it. And then send you on your way. Um, is that your last name? >> Yep. >> Okay. Is your ID through Florida? >> What state is it from? >> I'm right here. >> Yeah. >> What state is it from? >> She's coming. >> That's fine. What state is your ID from? >> I don't have an ID. I would surrender my ID, my birth, and everything. >> When you used to have an ID, what state was it from? >> Um, Colorado. >> Colorado. Okay. What's your What's that? >> It don't It won't register because it Fine. Here she is. She's right there. >> That's fine. I I don't need her actually. And she's not going to come over here. Um, what is your date of birth? >> It's right there. Everything's right there. >> No, not everything is right here. >> Well, he has a birthday is a living soul, not a corporation entity. >> Okay. >> Does that make sense? Not at all. All this. I know. >> Yesterday, hop on out. >> I'm not Why? Why do I need to get out of the car? Have I done something wrong? >> Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before you drag me out of the car, what have I done? >> Hop out of the car. >> I've done something wrong. You're failing to re You're failing to identify yourself. >> That's not a That's not a law. That's not a misdemeanor. It's not a law. Hey, don't get in my car. What are you guys doing? Watch this. They're jerking me out of the [ __ ] garbage. >> Get out. >> They're getting me out of the car. >> All right. All right. I'm getting out. All right. Get out. Pull away from me now. >> You guys are joking me around. You guys are jerking me around. >> I got you. >> All right. I'm not jerking around. >> Now you're under arrest, boy. >> Damn. We're not doing anything. >> You guys are jerking me around. >> I don't know how much folks in the car. Show my ID. It's not the federal. You tell me. >> Not an ID state. >> You're not an ID state here. >> And I don't I don't go for certain. >> Stop bumping on me, please. It's not registered. >> Stay out of my wallet. It's not. >> Stay out of my wallet. >> Everything's coming out your pockets. >> I don't I don't >> You might not accept it, but it doesn't mean it's not happening. >> You guys are legally [ __ ] searching me for no [ __ ] reason at all. >> None. >> None. >> Stop yelling, please. >> And you just harassed him. >> Okay. >> Yes. Do you want to talk to him or not? If not, we're going to get him out of here. We're [clears throat] trying to give you the keys. >> Hey, what? >> Hey, watch your back. >> Why are you calling myself? Because I have a phone number for him. >> Unlock this door now. >> No, I'm not going to un You >> get out. >> We breaking. >> Open the door now. Now. Get out. Get out. >> Get out of the car. Oh [ __ ] code and you're [ __ ] hurting me. >> No, >> I'm not looking into your not >> actually. Yeah, >> we have another 1050. Do we have a lot to welcome? Is anybody else covered in blood? >> I'm pretty >> fired. Who's got a Who's got an? >> He has an Earth Day. He is a living soul, not a corporation entity. Okay, does that make sense? Not at all. >> You are stomping all over my constitution. [music] >> I'm not driving. I'm traveling. >> He pushes my hands off. >> In the US judicial system, it's said that no one's above the law, but some people think they don't have to follow the rules. We're taking a closer look at six times sovereign citizens were arrested on police body camera. Welcome to After Hours, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Sam Goldberg. First, let's talk about what sovereign citizens actually are. It's a very loosely defined group of people that believe US laws don't apply to them based mostly on cherrypicked court rulings and statutes. This can lead to traffic stops by police who often find these quote sovereign citizens driving with fake plates or without a driver's license. We begin today's after hours in Myrtle Creek, Oregon. It's April 2022 and a police officer noticed problems with an SUV's license plate. Jania Green KS is in the driver's seat and she's frustrated from the very first moment. >> Hi there. >> Yep. >> Hey, I'm officer Kennedy. Murder Creek said earlier in our conversation's being recorded today. >> Yes, it is. >> Reason for the stop today is that I know your tags are expired. Do you have your license on now? >> Is that a firearm under your jacket? Don't reach for it. answer, but I don't know. I'm asking if it's a firearm. So, if you reach for it, we have issues. It is. >> Okay. Don't ever reach for it. Okay. >> Okay. Will you do me a favor? I'd like to remove that from you. >> I would rather remove it myself. >> Okay. You're not going to do that. >> You're not going to put a firearm. Okay. So, just hear me out. Stop talking. >> Just let me explain. Okay. It's for my safety. I don't mean any harm to you. >> Excuse me, but I It's about my safety. >> Okay. I'm not going to hurt you, nor am I putting off an intimidation. not going to hurt you. >> This is what I would like to do. Okay. All I would like you to do is cross your fingers like this. Put your hand on your head and I'd like to just grab and take it out. I'm not going to seize it. >> I do not want my my weapon outside of my vehicle. >> Where's your ID? >> I do not want my weapon outside of the vehicle. Where is your ID? >> I'm willing to put my weapon on the dash so that you can clearly see >> not touch that gun. Fine. Then it'll say where it's at. >> Put the paperwork on the dash for me. >> Put the paperwork on the dash. Why? >> Because I'm telling you to and it's a lawful order. Put the paperwork on the dash now and put your hands on the steering wheel and don't move them. Okay? You're being confrontational. You have a firearm. We're not going to play that game. I'm going to get your name, date of birth, and I'm going to continue my traffic stop. Do you understand that? >> I just plead the fifth. >> That's fine. I recommend that. Well, if you're not going to plead the fifth, you're going to need to present me with an ID. Can you point to where your ID is? No, sir. You told me to put my hands on the stair. >> You told me you were going to plead the fist, which means you're not going to talk anymore. Okay. >> If you're not going to talk, you can't tell me your name and your date of birth. Does that make sense? So, will you tell me your name and date of birth? >> Not until I uh present this paperwork. >> Okay. 32 and six. Can I get another unit? I'm going to get my chief down here for you. >> Okay. Keep your hands right where they're at. >> I will keep them there as long as I can. >> Okay, perfect. They need to remain there and your hand needs to stay away from that. >> And I already told you I will keep them there as long as I can. This is not exactly a comfortable position. >> Not yet. Females verbally uncooperative. >> I am not uncooperative. I am simply answering you without mind. >> Not at this time. See, you guys always do that. You guys always make something up that isn't there. >> What did I make up today? Ma'am, >> you're saying I'm being confrontational. I'm not being confrontational. >> Maybe, let me use a different word. Argumentative. >> Well, maybe argumentative, but I'd say so are you because you're not getting everything you want exactly when you want it. >> Yeah, because I got to survive every contact and I'm going to get what I want when there's a firearm involved. >> You know what? I'm sorry, but it's the police that have proved themselves to be unreliable. >> Oh, yeah. Have you ever met me before? >> Yes, I have. >> You've met me. Where did you meet me? >> Matter of fact, really doesn't matter. >> Okay, so you haven't met me. So therefore, you have no idea whether I'm reliable or not. >> All I know is you're wearing a monkey suit. >> A monkey suit? I believe it's a police uniform and a badge. But that's fine. I get what you're trying to do. You're you're mad at the badge, not at me. I'm just trying to go home every day. trust the batch. >> Okay, you don't have to trust me, but I also I not that I don't trust you. I can't trust you because I don't know you. Okay, I stop hundreds and I stop hundreds, possibly thousands of people every year and I have to survive each of those contacts for >> a duration of 25 years. >> I understand that. >> I know how to do that and I know how I want people to react if they do have a firearm. >> And so that's what I go off of. Okay. >> And I was willing to compromise with you, but you're not willing to compromise. You want What is the compromise? >> I am willing to put it on the dash or even to allow you to put it on the dash. I am not >> willing to allow you to remove it from my vehicle. >> Okay. I can work with you on that a little bit. If I'm going to put it on your dash, I'm going to unload it first. >> That's fine. >> Okay. Will you put your hands on your head with your fingers crossed so I can remove it from you? Thank you. >> I appreciate that. >> Any other firearms with you? No. >> Can I put my hands down now? >> Yes, ma'am. >> If you could keep them at least visible, that would be wonderful. >> Now, can I begin going over this paperwork with me that you're going to thoroughly disagree with me on anyway? >> I I'm not saying I'm going to disagree with you. It may be legitimate. Okay, >> it is legitimate. I've done my own. >> Once I get this done, we'll move on with the rest of the stop. a lot easier with this personal deal. >> You don't you don't get to decide how things go. >> Okay. I'm I'm all about >> I'm all about respecting you and trying to work with you. >> I was trying to be helpful. >> You were not. I was I was asking you to do something. You were refusing to. >> I was talking about with getting the bullets out of the gun. I was just >> It would have been easier and faster to get the bullets out if you'd have pushed the release. >> Okay, >> that's all I was trying to say. >> Before that, I was giving you a lawful order and you were refusing to obey that for personal feelings. I understand that you did not prefer it that way, but there's times during a traffic stop or an interaction with you have to set your personal opinion or feelings aside to obey a lawful order. >> Put my weapon on my dash >> afterwards. No. >> Correct. >> After I told you >> to put my weapon >> We're going to stop this. I'm going to wait for the chief and we'll go from there. I'm going to put it on the dash now. You need to not reach for it. And I'm going to put it on that side. Will you roll that window down? >> I have to turn. >> Just turn it. Turn it to the on. Yeah. Accelerator on. That's fine. >> Sorry. >> Actually, I'm going to just I'm going to hold it here until the chief's here. Okay. Where's your identification at? We'll >> just wait for your key. >> Fine with me. >> The chief of police arrives to help the officer. >> I have the firearm now. Um, so essentially approached. I know she had the firearm on her head. Not a big deal. Um, I asked her if it was a firearm that she'd point at it or tell me instead of reaching it. She reached for it. Um anyway, I asked her to put her hands on her head so I could remove it from her and take it back to my vehicle to secure it during the rest of the stop and she's mildly argumentative. She refused to do that. We ended up coming to a compromise. She let me take it off her and unload it. Um so it's been bit of a confrontation. I've asked her for a license multiple times. She said she wouldn't get it until you got here. So that's where we're at. So can I have your license? >> I don't want to repeat myself. >> Okay. Can I have your license, please? >> Okay. Just real quick, ma'am. Just so you know, my name is Chief Brucer. Let know I got my camera going too. So it is recording. Okay. >> Okay. I've got my camera recording as well. Now, as I told you before, before I relinquish my information, I'm going to go over this paperwork. Do this one. Okay. Which of course is my order. I promise this way when I tell you. Despite being insistent that she read the papers to the officers, it takes Green KS a while to get things organized. But she finally finds what she's looking for. So, as you're asking me for my driver's license, >> do want you to know that the right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guarantee, one may therefore under normal conditions travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another's rights. He will be protected not only in his person but in his safe conduct. And I can give you where to find that if you would like. >> And we don't need to. The US Supreme Court has already squashed that. So, >> no, the US Supreme Court has not. >> I guess they have. And you do have a right to travel. You have a right to travel by your feet or your force, but you have to have a driver's license. >> No, you do not. >> Okay, we can argue this later. So, you need to provide the the officer with your driver's license or you will be arrested for fail to hear and present. >> For what crime? >> Felicare and present a driver's license. It's a class C misdemeanor in the state of Oregon. >> Without a crime, it is not a failure. >> Okay, you have to let go of it. You have to protect. >> Do you have >> Why do I have to let go of it? I pretend it is. >> Do Do you have a concealed handgun license with you? >> No. >> Okay. Do you have insurance for the vehicle? >> Not required. Okay. >> Okay. Uh whether whether you feel it's required or not, do you have insurance information? >> Yes or no? >> No. >> Okay. Do you have registration information? >> Whether it's required in your opinion or not, do you have >> I don't know if it's here in the car or not. >> Okay. So, you just don't know. Okay, that's fine. I'll be back. >> Green KS continues to be uncooperative and invokes her fifth amendment right to remain silent for the time being. >> So, ma'am, here's here's the deal. If you believe that this is part of your right to travel, this isn't the place to argue that. >> Okay. That's why they have a court of law. >> You mean another waste of my time. >> Okay. Well Well, you're you're citing what you think's a part of the constitution. And so if it's constitutionally sound, that's what that's what a court's for. And that's why there's appeals processes if you don't like the original court ruling. Okay? And if if you if you read closely, they did not [clears throat] rule that you have the right to travel without a driver's license in a motor vehicle. >> Yeah, they did. Okay, I can show you. >> Well, that that's fine. Again, if you if you believe that that's the case, that's what a court's for. It's not to sit out here and argue on the side of the highway with the officer because that just escalates things and things turn worse. >> We'll be back with not authorize him to do that. >> Do what? He told me he was going to put it on the dash. >> Okay. Well, I'll talk with him. Okay. >> You giving it back to her? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I'm just going to put it in this bag with all the >> Who is she? >> Violation. I've never dealt with her before. Um, >> so she prevented you a driver's license that she suspended? >> Yes. >> Okay. I'm going to ask her if she knows that. That's a crime that she knows she's suspended. Well, also she was cited and convicted convicted on December 29th of 21. Ma'am, did you know your driving privileges are suspended in Oregon? I played the fest. >> Okay. >> After checking her information in the system, the officers decide it's time to arrest her. >> Hey, Gina. >> So, this is the deal. Okay. I need you to step out of the vehicle cuz you're being placed under arrest for carrying a concealed firearm. >> You're placing me under arrest for a concealed firearm. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Can I ask what led you to that decision? >> Okay. Okay. Well, you're you're carrying a concealed firearm and that's a crime in Oregon. >> Ma'am, do you recall I asked you if that was a gun underneath your deck? >> And I said yes. >> Okay. So, by me not being able to tell whether it was a gun or not, it was not in open plane view, right? >> Okay. So, it would have been concealed if I can't tell that it's a gun. >> You can obviously see the butt of it. If >> if you got your sweatshirt covering that gun, it it's concealed. An open carry is open carry. Nothing obstructing the firearm or the holster that it's in. So, had it been on the dash or like flat on the passenger seat >> or had it been on your side without a sweatshirt covering it, that's not concealed, >> but you have it under clothing, that's concealed. >> And additionally, it's also a crime to present me with a driver's license knowing that it's suspended. I see you were convicted of driving while suspended in December, late December of 2021, which is only a few months ago. Additionally, you haven't been reinstated at all since then. So, there's a pretty good inclination that you knew you were suspended and knew that license not valid. That's also the state of Oregon. >> You're making assumptions. >> 24 hours. >> You're making assumptions. >> Oh, as far as your knowledge, >> you're assuming whether I knew or did not know, >> right? I never said I knew for a fact. Okay. I I I'm not in your mind. I can't know that. But there's pretty good evidence to show that you likely knew. But additionally from that, for the concealed firearm, yes, you are under arrest. So, we just need you to step out. We don't want it to be incident or anything. Um, I just asked you step out and face the panel of >> someone. So, I'm like I explained to you this this isn't the place to argue. That just makes things worse. That's why there's court. >> Yeah. You guys look for the most petty thing that you could to arrest me for. >> Okay. Well, we didn't we didn't >> I'm willing to bet that in the process you guys got a whole lot of other things going on. So, before we jump to that, I'd like to know what I was pulled over for. >> I I told you you're stopp for expired tires. Okay. Additionally, the registered owner of the vehicle is suspended. It appeared to look similar to you based off the picture I pulled up before I stopped you. But in and of itself, I can stop you if the registered owner of the vehicle is expensive or if suspended and the description would match. Additionally, you have a lighousing on the back here that's broken. I didn't notify you that that's why I saw you cuz I was primarily just on the track. But I mean, we can point at things, but I don't want to nitpick with you. I don't want to argue with you. Okay, this is kind of what we're going to do. Um, you're obviously very familiar with the courts. You referenced the Supreme Court earlier in the stop. Okay. So, you know that that's the place to argue this stuff. So, at this point, that's why you're under arrest. Okay. >> So, we're going to ask that you step out. We don't want an argument with you. We don't want any >> What are you going to do with my car? >> So, your car. So, you were convicted of driver suspended recently. So, >> you have no insurance on the vehicle. >> You guys have no legal right to tow it. >> Okay. Again, you can argue that in court, >> but I'm talking to you now. Okay, this isn't the place for these arguments. Okay, ma'am. So, I'm going to ask you to go ahead and step out of the vehicle and and if you refuse to >> step out of the vehicle, however, the US Supreme Court has already ruled that a vehicle is a household effect. >> Okay? >> Therefore, you have no right to tow it. >> Okay? Again, you can argue that in court. You can argue that. You can file lawsuits. You can do what you like. So in other words, what you're saying, Chief, >> is that you don't care, >> get him on camera, >> that you are stomping all over my constitution. >> What I what I care about is um th this is my job, okay? I am educated and I'm informed and I get the training on laws and court rulings. But that does not mean that you know all the laws and that does not mean that you are kept up to date on the US Supreme Court rules, >> right? So I'm I'm pretty kept up to date. And again, if I if I if I'm if I'm wrong, I'll eat crow later. Okay. But this isn't the place. >> Crow later is not going to help me. >> Okay. Well, it it might. So go ma'am. Go ahead and step out of the vehicle. You are under arrest. >> You guys are taking something that you have no legal right to. >> Again, not the place for the argument. I I have not even said that I'm going to tow it yet, but we need you to step out now so we can get you in custody safely and then we'll go from there. So, please face that way. Face that way and put your hands behind your back. >> Ow. >> Would you please be gentle? >> I have a right shoulder injury. So, please hold the chest cuff on >> and please do not pull my arms up. >> We're going to do our very best. I'm only I'm only limited by these two cups. too high. >> Be a little better if you were able to hold a little more. Real quick, ma'am, you do have the right to remain silent. Anything you say cannot be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to have attorney present while you're being questioned. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you at no expense. Do you understand those rights, ma'am? >> I'm kidding. Okay. 321 216 has one female custo. After she's in handcuffs, the police pat her down and help her call a neighbor to come pick up the car. From there, she's headed to jail. >> Is it okay if I take your glass off before I put you in the car? >> Preferably not. >> I just That's I asked >> Generally, I it wouldn't be a big deal, but I get such bad headaches in the light. It's >> okay. I'll have you step this way for me and just ride around me to the door here. So, the best way is going to be to get up as close to that corner as you can, face me, and then sit back and then bring your legs in. Just do your best. You can take as much time as you need. >> Officer, you're going to have >> Okay. How would you like me to help you? You like to hold pressure on your back so you can slowly go in. >> You want to hold on your sweatshirt like this? >> That'll work. >> Slowly lean down. Slow as you need. >> A little more. Little Yep. >> Keep going. >> There we go. >> Yep. >> Duck. >> Okay. So, your head should be clear now and it'll give you some time to get your legs up. >> It's not an excuse. >> I know. It's it's it's difficult. Okay, this is >> You want me to go on the other side and pull on you? >> Can you push my feet up? >> Yep. >> There we go. Sit you up. >> Perfect. There we go. >> Okay. Would you like a window down? >> Uh, no. Thank you. At one point, the officer taking Green Cars to booking has to pull over as the woman has a very dramatic reaction to being in the cramped back seat. I got >> Would you like an ambulance? >> I just got to get this. You're positive you don't want any medical attention, correct? >> It won't It won't help, >> buddy. So, she was having a back spasm and >> couldn't wait. So, >> I'm sorry. My back went up a >> couple weeks ago and it's been >> kind of sliding in and out since >> it happens. Stretch out real quick. And we're only about 4 minutes away from the jail. So, >> how are you, sir? Good. >> How are you? Do you mind holding my shoulders? >> How would you like me to hold them? >> Just Yeah. >> And I'm going to lean to the right to stretch. And then I'm going to lean to the left. >> Okay. Now, if we can get that stretched out to the jail, >> it'll be >> They'll take those off and you can fill your arms all you want. >> It'll be a lot better. >> You want to give it a shot? You ready? >> Okay, let's do it. >> Same thing as before, please. >> Okay. You need me to hold your jacket? Yep. >> All right. Lean back. Let me a little more. >> Okay. >> Nope. >> Oh boy. I'm okay. I got you. >> Okay. You want me to push back on you some? >> Okay. Since we practiced this earlier, please. Okay. >> Okay. We're almost there. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. >> Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm sorry. I got a cramp from my hip now. >> Let's get there so we can get you out. Okay. >> The very patient police officer arrested Green K for unlawful possession of a firearm. Results of record appearance were not available at the time of this recording. Next, we're headed to beautiful Sedona, Arizona. It's the summer of 2021, and this vehicle has a fake license plate. The officer approaches the passenger side to talk to the driver who's identified as Matthew Tucheron. >> Hello. >> Hi, I'm Officer Wolf from Snow Police Department. The reason I stopped you is for it appears you have a fictitious license plate on the back of your vehicle. Do you know anything about that? >> I'm a sovereign human being. >> Okay. >> And I'm an American national. >> Okay. Do you have your driver's license, insurance, and registration, please? >> What? >> No. >> Do you have any form of ID on you? >> No. Matthew is my name. >> Okay. All right. So, just so you know, >> pulled over a couple times already by state troopers, sheriffs, and this is recognized. >> Okay. >> Okay. I don't agree. Tuteroni wasn't interested in hearing what the officer had to say and actually ended up rolling up the window while the officer was talking. >> All right, go ahead and step out, please. >> Step out of your car, please. >> I didn't do anything wrong. >> Mayor one, I need another unit. Step it up, please. >> I did not do anything wrong. >> Pennsylvania versus Mims is a Supreme Court case law that says you're required to get out of that car if I ask you. If you do not, I'm going to force you to. >> Hold on a second. I'm calling my lawyer. >> Okay, get out of your car. Call my lawyer. >> You can call your lawyer if you want, but as soon as another officer gets here, I'm going to force you out of that car if you don't get out on your own. >> I don't need to be under arrest. I didn't do anything wrong. >> You're being detained right now. And Pennsylvania versus Mims is a United States Supreme Court case law. You're being detained. >> Why? >> Because I told you I'm investigating one crime. >> You also said you don't have a driver's license, which is another one. And if you don't provide me a form of identification when I'm investigating you for a crime, that is a third crime that I'm investigating you for. >> There is no crime. You are provide you are required by law to provide me your true full legal name if I'm investigating a crime. >> Well, this car >> if you do not provide me with your true full legal name, you can be arrested for that. >> Matthew Tuteroni. >> Okay. Do you have a driver's license or any other form of identification? >> I'm a sovereign being. My name is Matthew Tuteroni. >> Okay. Again, Arizona by statutes 28-1595 >> requires you to show me an ID card or driver's license. Get out. >> No, I'm not getting out of the car. This is I didn't do anything wrong. >> All right. not getting out. >> Matthew, I've been I I've done >> If you do not get out, I'm going to force you out. >> An officer that Tuteroni seems to know arrives at the scene and tries to calm him down. >> Matthew, look at me. >> Officers, I'm not doing anything. >> Matthew, >> look at me. If you don't get out, I'm going to force you out. I'm going to charge you with resisting arrest also. So, get out, please. >> Come on. >> All right. All right. All right. Come on, sir. >> Get out. There's no reason to act. >> I've asked you probably 10 times to get out. >> There's no reason to act like this. There's >> Get out of your car, then. >> All right. >> There's no reason to act like this. There's no reason to act like this. Do not touch me. Do not touch me. >> Get out of your car. >> Do not touch me. Do not touch me. Please. Please do not touch me. >> I have asked you 10 times to get out. Get out on your own then. >> What are you doing? Please do not touch me. >> We're officer. Come on. Get on the ground. GET ON YOUR STOMACH. DO ANYTHING. Get on your stomach. Just comply. Just comply. Comply. Just comply for now. >> All right. Just comply for now. All right. I just got here. Okay. But right now, the best thing you can do is just comply. All right? If you want to file a complaint, I will give you that information. All right? I promise my superiors will overlook everything. All right? But he had to repeat himself. All right? Like I said, just stand up for me. Stand up. All right? Matthew, what are you doing? >> Let's go back to the car. >> The sovereign play. >> You are detained. You were detained from the beginning when I told you that. >> Relax. All right. >> I know. Just relax. Okay. Right now, you're safe. You are safe. >> You got a sovereign plate on there. You did comply with my office. >> Okay. All right. Just relax. All right. You are safe. >> Go ahead and take a seat for me. All right. >> Just relax, Matthew. Okay. >> Just like this. I just want some Put your feet in for me. Please just listen to my officer. Just listen. Put your feet inside. Okay. We'll get you some water. We'll make you some comfortable. Right. Right now, we got to do what we got to do. All right. >> The officers removed the fake license plate and expressed their frustration with sovereign citizens. >> Yeah. I went on the passenger side, started asking questions. He just rolled up the window and turned around, started dialing people. I'm like, "Nope, you're getting out." >> I don't understand why they think we're making it up. You know what I mean? I even told him the statute. >> Tutroni was charged with resisting arrest, displaying a fictitious license plate, and failing to provide evidence of identity. He represented himself in superior court, and the judge decided to move the case to justice court as a misdemeanor. Tucheroni failed to show up for that court date and was subsequently arrested again. Next, we're in Valuchia County, Florida. The sheriff there posted a video compilation from November 2023 showing the arrest of two alleged sovereign citizens. The traffic stop starts over the license plate. >> It's a blue Ford truck displaying some kind of sovereign citizen looking tag. Can you start us a second, please? >> Post union treaty convention neutrals neutral zone transport vehicle. That's not how this works, man. Do >> you know what the flag upside down means? >> No. >> It's a sign of distress. >> The truck stops at a gas station and when the officer approaches, the driver is on the phone with a woman who's coaching him through what to say. >> Hey boss, how you doing? Good. >> Not too bad. Deputy of the sheriff's office. >> I just got pulled over. >> Hey, so the reason why I'm stopping you, boss, I didn't recognize the tag unit was on your vehicle. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Do you have your driver's license registration with you? >> Here you go. I got the paperwork right here. >> Where's the paperwork at? Michelle behind your seat. >> It's where my seat was talking. >> It's on speaker. >> Yeah, it does. >> Nashville. >> Okay. Where's your driver's license, boss? >> No, I don't need my window now. I'm sorry. So, do you have a driver's license? >> Yeah, we're right there. Okay. What's your name, boss? I don't see your name on here. Can you point it to me? >> Okay. That's not how this works. Where is your uh driver name at? >> Don't tell him anything and don't show him anything. >> I'm just giving him the paperwork. >> No, he doesn't get to say any traffic. >> Okay, here. You talk to him then, >> ma'am. If he refuses to identify himself in this traffic stop, there's going to be an issue. >> Sure. Uh-huh. >> State that removes him from your jurisdiction. >> Uh, I it doesn't matter who he identifies as. He's operating a motor vehicle in the state of Florida. Ma'am, >> you okay? Rules County Sheriff. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Charlie 44. How far out? >> Charlie 493. How far are >> you guys? >> No, I just want to check it. Ma'am, so this is what this is what's going on. The the tag on his vehicle does not appear like it's it's proper back to any state. So, the appears the vehicle is unregistered. Then on top of that, I come up here. I'm asking for his identification documents and he's handing me a stacket of papers instead of a driver's license. So, I'm concerned he might be driving without a driver's license and his vehicle might be unregistered >> on his phone right now because he signed a heart treaty and you are in violation of it right now. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Where's your What's your name, boss? >> Sir, what's your name? >> Everything. Right here. >> Can I see your name, please? >> Right here. >> Where? record. >> Who's point? >> Where where's what's where is your name, sir? I don't see it. >> Are you the postmaster? That's what it says. Postmaster. >> I am the post. >> Are so is your first name Mark or your last name Mark? >> No. >> So, nothing on here has your name >> right there. >> Your destiny mark. >> Destry. Is that how am I saying it? >> And what's your last name, boss? I can't see it. >> Right there. Loggerman. >> Loggerman. What's your date of birth, sir? >> It's all right here. him that you not telling me anything. >> All right. Well, this is the thing. If we cannot properly identify you, then there could be a potential issue for us coming up. >> Sir, I'm telling you that you cannot talk to us. >> All right. Well, that's fine. He doesn't necessarily have to talk to me, but he does have to obey my lawful commands. Sir, sir, as you know, as you know, the terms of the Geneva Convention clearly state that you are required to have knowledge of every term. >> Hey Murphy, >> why is he looking at my >> This is part of his job. Hey Murphy, can you just switch to me real fast? >> Who has signed a treaty? >> What? What? Lieutenant who? >> Port Authority. >> Lieutenant who? >> Lieutenant. >> I think she mean trying to say Garza. >> Yeah. >> All right. Just hold on right here. I just got to look at something real fast. >> Yes. >> The deputy double checks the status of the truck then returns to give the bad news. >> That's going to be negative. Comes back on a blue 2012 Ford registered to a Lini out of Lake Helen. Expired back in 2022. All right, sir. This is kind of where we're at. So, I checked the uh >> Hang on. Hang on. Michelle, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Michelle, >> Michelle, hang on. >> So, this is kind of where we're at. So, I checked the VIN. The car is currently Looks like it's unregistered. So, if you don't have Do you have a Florida driver's license or driver's license out another state that I can check to ensure that you're a licensed driver? >> Right there is all I got. >> Okay. Well, there's a problem. So, I tried to search you up under this. I can't find anybody, you know. I can't find you. So, if I can't verify that you're you have a valid driver's license, then how am I supposed to let you drive off? >> She's coming. >> All right. That's not going to that's not going to change anything. >> He's saying I got to have a valid driver license >> to operate a motor vehicle state of Florida. Yes, sir. >> Okay. You're at Catalina and Howland? >> Yeah. >> Okay, sir. It's a it's a simple question. Do you have a valid driver's license? >> Right. There's all my paperwork I got. Ask him that because he's not required to provide any private name. Is it death street? >> Is your middle name? >> Why are you giving him private? >> Well, because he's got it right here. He's got the paperwork in his hand. >> All we're trying to do is just identify it. That's it. And then send you on your way. Um, is that your last name? >> Yep. >> Okay. Is your ID through Florida? >> What state is it from? >> I'm right here. >> Yeah. >> What state is it from? >> She's coming. >> That's fine. What state is your ID from? >> I don't have an ID. I was surrender my ID, my birth ship, and everything. >> When you used to have an ID, what state was it from? >> Um, Colorado. >> Colorado. Okay. What's your What's that? >> It don't It won't register because it it's fine. Here she is. She's right there. >> That's fine. I I don't need her actually. And she's not going to come over here. >> Um, what is your date of birth? >> It's right there. Everything's right there. >> No, not everything is right here. >> Well, he has birthday. He is a living soul, not a corporation entity. >> Okay. Does that make sense? All this I know. Hop on out to me. I'm not Why? Why do I need to get out of my car? Have I done something wrong? >> Wait. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Before you drag me out of the car. What have I done? >> Hop out of the car. >> I've done something wrong. >> You're failing to re You're failing to identify yourself. >> I That's not a That's not a law. That's not a misdemeanor. It's not a law. Hey, don't get in my car. What are you guys doing? Watch this. They're jerking me out of the car myself. >> Get out. They're getting me out of the car. >> All right. I'm getting out. All right. Get out. >> Pull away from me. You guys are joking me around. You guys are jerking me around. >> I got you. >> All right. Well, I'm not jerking around. >> Now you're under arrest, buddy. >> Damn. >> We're not doing anything. You guys are jerking me around. >> I don't figure this all out, sir. >> Well, now my show my not you tell me. Separate. >> Not an ID. Stay here. >> Separate your fears. >> Not an ID. Stay here. And I don't I don't go for See, >> stop bing on me, please. >> It's not registered. >> Stay out of my wallet. It's not. >> Stay out of my wallet. >> Everything's coming out your pockets. >> I don't I don't >> You might not accept it, but it doesn't mean it's not happening. You guys are concerned to me for no reason at all. None. None. >> Stop yelling, please. >> When the woman on the phone arrives at the scene, things escalate again. >> Just harass him. >> Okay. >> Yes. Do you want to talk to him or not? If not, we're going to get him out of here. We're trying to give you the keys. >> Hey, what? >> Hey, watch your back. >> I need to call him myself because I have a phone number for him. >> Unlock this door now. No, I'm not going to you. >> Get out. >> We breaking. >> Open the door. No. Yes. So, now get out. Get out. >> Get out. >> Get out of the car. >> You told you're hurting me. >> Give us your hands. No, >> I'm not looking into your noting anything. >> Xray 90. >> Oh, yeah. >> We have another 1050. Do we have a watch going? >> US. >> The man was identified as Destree Waggerman. He was charged with driving an unregistered motor vehicle, habitually driving with a suspended or revoked license, and resisting an officer without violence. He entered a no contest plea in December, and had to serve two days in jail. The woman was identified as Laura Linda Bisnney. She was also charged with operating a vehicle while her driver's license was suspended or revoked, as well as not having proof of insurance or a license plate. Her case is still moving through the courts. Her next hearing is in May. Now we're headed to Gulf Breeze, Florida. It's January of 2022 around 2 in the morning and from the moment Haley Smith rolls down her window, she's hostile. >> Young lady, Officer Banks, Greece, police, I'm pulling you over. We're doing between doing 54 and a 35. Any reason for that speed tonight? >> Where's the 35? >> Before you got off the bridge and you came off the bridge. All this is 35. >> I was going 40, I thought. >> Nope. You got your license, registration, proof of insurance. >> You don't have to have a license to drive cars. >> Yes. Yes, you do. Do not >> 15741 with me. Ma'am, step out the vehicle. >> Step out the vehicle. >> Am I Am I a crime? >> Yeah, you are being detained right now. Step out the vehicle, young lady. >> I I know my rights. >> Either you step out the vehicle or I will remove you from the vehicle. >> I know my rights. >> 157 Sovereign supervis sovereign citizen. >> Did you hear what I said? You need to get a supervisor out here right now. >> No, you need to step out the vehicle right now. supervisor. >> Young lady, step out the vehicle. Step out the vehicle. Last time I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask and then I'm going to make you step out the vehicle. >> You're going to get me a supervisor out here right now. >> No, you're going to step out the vehicle right now. >> You are going to get me a supervisor out here right now. >> That's fine. >> I know my right. >> What right is that? >> I I do not have to have a driver's license to drive a car. I am not This is not a commercial vehicle. >> Okay. >> I know my right. >> Okay. Very well. >> That's what you want to stick with? Call a supervisor right now. >> All right. >> Right now. >> Or else what? >> I know my rights. >> If I don't call supervisor or else what? >> I guess we're not going to go anywhere then. >> 1025. >> Just hold it for me and go and give me the channel. >> You need to get a supervisor out here. >> Yeah. Our channel will be 1033 >> that can that can educate you on what the the law is. >> Okay. He's he could educate me on what the law is. What? So, do you have an ID or you have a driver's license? I no I don't have a driver's license on me. >> Okay. Do you have one issued to you? >> Uh in Mississippi. >> In Mississippi. So why would you need a driver's license to drive on the road if you don't need a license? >> That was years ago. >> Oh. So what year is this? >> What year was the ID issued? >> 29. >> That's your supervisor. >> You hope it is. >> I really do. Yes, I do. >> Okay. What is your name and badge number? >> I already told you my name. It's Officer Banks. I didn't >> And what is your badge number? >> It's Officer Banks. >> Are you failing to to >> Are you failing to give me your driver's license? >> I don't have to give you a driver's license to drive a car. This is not a commercial vehicle. >> Okay. >> I'm not driving. I'm traveling. >> Okay. >> I have all the laws back here. >> Okay. So, you're not going to give me a driver's license? >> I'm not going to give you a driver's license. I don't have to give you a driver's license. >> Okay. >> I am I'm traveling. I don't I don't have to have a driver's license to drive a vehicle. >> Okay. And what state is that? >> Any state. It's common law. Natural law. >> Okay. >> Constitutional law. >> Okay. >> You need to get a supervisor out here. >> I do. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Smith demands a supervisor and one soon arrives. >> Her vehicle stop for speeding. 54 and 35 coming off the bridge. She asked me where the speed limit was. Saying that is before she got off the bridge. She actually did a U-turn. We were in the 35 zone. We pull over here. I introduced myself. I said, "The reason any reason why we're driving this fast?" I said, "You got your license." She immediately goes into, "I don't need a license to drive the vehicle." >> Okay. >> And they said, "I am traveling." >> Okay. >> So, you do need a license to drive the vehicle, and you do have to identify yourself to these officers. >> I I do not have to have a license to drive a vehicle. >> Yes, you do. >> I do not. >> You're wrong. But okay. >> I know common law. Natural. >> I don't care about common law. You're in the state of Florida. You're in the state of Florida. >> You're in the state of Florida. Does matter in what state? >> It does matter. >> I'm in the US. >> It does matter. So, you better hope the information you gave us comes back as to being you. >> So, at this point in time, I need you to shut the vehicle off and step out of the car. >> I'm I'm not getting out of the vehicle. >> You're going to get out of the car. >> I haven't been suspected of a crime. >> You are being legally stopped on a traffic stop. You are not being cooperative. >> It is not a Terry stop. >> Trust me, I know the difference. You were speeding. >> Turn the vehicle off and get out of the car. Out of the car now. Undo the seat belt. >> Turn the vehicle off. >> Turn it off. Now >> sher unbuckle alert. >> Slide up. >> Put all that down. >> Step out. Turn around. Face away from me. >> Turn around. Face away. >> Turn around. >> I do not have to have a driver's license to drive a vehicle. >> Yes, you do. >> No, I do not. >> Well, then you can tell that to the judge if you end up going to jail. >> I do not have to have a driver's license to drive a vehicle. I have all the laws right there. I don't care what I don't care what laws you say you have. >> I know that you don't care because you're you're supposed to be a police officer. >> This is You should know that this conversation's over then, >> right? Because you don't care about the laws. You don't care about our rights. >> I live right down there. >> Where is your ID out of or your license out of? >> Mississippi. >> I just thought you didn't have one. You just said you don't need one. >> This is This is This is ridiculous. >> It's not ridiculous. We're not going to play any of these games with you tonight. It's not a game. This is my rights as a citizen. >> It's not your right. >> Yes, it is. >> No, it's not. You're in the state of Florida. State of Florida requires you to have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle. >> Sir, it it doesn't doesn't matter what state I'm in. >> See, that's your problem is you say it doesn't matter, but it does. In this country, it does. I don't care about what laws you say you have. >> You should care about the rights and the rights of citizens. Europe. >> We know your rights. We know your rights. You don't know your rights. No, you don't. >> Yes, I do. >> Because if you knew your rights, you knew or you would know and should know that you must have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle. And if I find out that you if you find if I find out that you are not giving us the right information to identify you >> the right information, why would I do that? I'm I'm trying to >> use my rights as a legal citizen. Why would >> Why would you do that? Well, you would do that because you don't have a valid driver's license. I don't have a valid driver's license. I don't have to have a valid driver's license. >> You do? >> No, I do not. >> Okay. >> I do not. >> Then we'll let the judge determine that. >> We will let the You You can't arrest me. I haven't done anything wrong. >> We can arrest you. >> You No, you can't. >> If you don't have a valid driver's license, we most certainly can. >> Can I please call my mother? >> You cannot. >> Why? >> Because you don't need to call. Are you an adult? >> Yes. >> Then why do you need to call your mother? to come and get me from jail since I'm being illegally detained. >> You will be able to call her once you get there. >> Can I at least lock my car? >> We will make sure it is secure. >> What are you going to do with my car? >> Probably tow it. >> Why? >> Because you are driving without a license. >> I don't have to have a license to drive. That is commercial driving. >> It is not commercial driving. >> Yes, it is. We are doing our job. >> Whether you agree or not doesn't matter from the top. You don't know your you don't know the laws in the right way. >> Law is law is law. >> We do. >> Sergeant Turner >> and And in this country, what laws do we follow? >> Canon law. Y'all follow cannon law. We follow natural law. >> Who is we? Who is we? >> Who is we? Tell me who we is. >> Police officers. >> No. police officers. >> We We are police officers. We're not peace officers. We're police officers. >> Yes, I know that now. >> So then your argument just needs to stop and you just need to sit there quietly. >> Sergeant Turner, please just let me go home. >> No. >> Why? >> Because you do not have a valid driver's license and you have done nothing but give my officers a hard time during this entire ordeal. I tell you that I have rights. >> You don't know your rights. Clearly >> ugly to y'all. I haven't yelled at you. >> You have not been cooperative. >> I haven't been cooperative and whatsoever. >> Just go with it. >> No, just be honest. >> Sergeant, please. >> You don't have a license. >> Okay. I'll never drive again. >> Yes, you will. Because you believe you don't have to have a license. >> I'll go get a driver's license tomorrow. >> Well, wait a minute. Now you Now you're telling me that you'll go get a license? Because you're telling me that I have no choice. >> Believe you don't. That's correct. You have no choice. >> Police learned that Smith had already failed to appear in court for very similar crimes. >> You failed to appear on a court appearance for what was it? Expired license. >> Y. >> So, your Mississippi driver's license is expired >> and for the registration. >> Okay. And the registration. So, you had a court date that you missed. Do you remember that? >> No, I don't. You don't or you choose not to? >> No, sir. I would not lie to you. I don't lie. I I do not remember that. >> Okay. Well, you do have a warrant out of Santa Rosa County. >> So, regardless, >> Santa Rosa County. >> You're in Santa Rosa County. Do you not know where you live? >> I just moved here. My mother lives on High Point. >> When did you move here? >> About two months ago from Pasigula, Mississippi. >> Okay. And you don't know what county you live in now after two months. >> I don't I don't that's not something that's I use often. What county I live in? >> Okay. Well, you are going to jail tonight. >> Well, thank you, Sergeant Turner. >> You're welcome. >> Smith is sticking to her guns, repeatedly arguing that the officer just doesn't understand the law. But the deputies are worried she also might have an actual gun. >> You got some karma. >> I'm not worried about my karma. >> I know. I know. >> I know. >> You're one of those. >> No, you know what? I'm actually worried about people like you who think that laws don't No, there is no quota. It's people like you who believe that laws don't pertain to them and that's just not the case. >> They don't. >> Then enjoy spending a lifetime in and out of jail >> because that is what will happen. though it though it won't actually >> if you continue to act like this and do this it will >> I'm not acting like anything >> then I would suggest moving back to Mississippi >> I'm not moving back to Mississippi >> then if you stay living here and driving a car without getting a valid driver's license that is what is going to happen >> you do not have to have a driver's license to drive a vehicle I've already I've already been through roadblocks with state troopers with this >> then they're not very good state troopers >> yes they are because they know they're they're Right. >> No. No. If they let you through with this garbage, they're not. >> This is not garbage. >> It's garbage. >> Have Have you done any research into it? >> I more than you will ever know. >> You're not the first person. It's not garbage. >> You're not the first person I've run across that thinks this way. >> Yeah, I know. We're a problem. >> Those other people went to jail, too. >> Good. Good. You know, >> it's not that. And I do not have to have a driver's license to drive a vehicle. I do not. I'm not a commercial driver. I'm not driving people around. I'm I'm traveling. That is considered a part of my home. And I do not have to have a driver's license to drive a vehicle. >> I suppose you don't have to have a registration either. Where's the gun in the car? >> The gun. >> There's no gun in that car. >> There seems to be ammo. >> The gun's in the pawn shop. >> When did you pawn it? FBA >> like two months ago. >> So why are you still just carrying around ammo? >> I didn't know that ammo was in there. >> The next thing the deputies find in Smith's car gets her in much bigger trouble. >> Drugs inside the vehicle. You are under under arrest now for possession of felony narcotics. >> I didn't give y'all permission to search my vehicle either. >> Your vehicle's being towed. We're inventorying it. We're not searching it. >> Yes, you are. You're searching my vehicle. You say that our laws don't matter to you. So what's it matter? >> Obviously I don't have any laws right now. >> No, there's plenty of laws. You're just breaking them. >> I don't have to mind laws that aren't that aren't valid. >> They're valid laws. >> They are not valid laws. >> The United States and the state of Florida seem to think they are. >> The United States has a constitution >> that we we fall under, >> right? statutes, mandates, codes. >> So, >> none of that matters. >> So, under our constitution, it still gives the the state governments the right to govern themselves. Correct. >> That's right. And the sheriff has all the power. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> The sheriff does. He is the head law enforcement. >> He's not part of NATO. He's not part of the Council on >> I'm not part of NATO either. >> Well, you you you take orders from the top. >> Nope, I don't. >> Yes, you do. >> You know who I take my orders from? My chief of police. >> Exactly. And he takes orders from the top. Who's the top? >> You want me to give them one name? I mean, that would be impossible. >> I don't know who the top is. >> I know because you haven't done research. >> I guess I'm just an ignorant cop. >> Nope. You said that. I didn't say that. >> Well, that's what you're implying. >> No, I didn't apply things. >> Then stop implying that I only take orders from the top. >> Fair enough. You do take orders from the top. That's how it works. >> Afraid not. >> Oh, it doesn't. Y'all just make up your own. Yeah, I know. That's what y'all doing right now. >> No, you make up your own. >> I don't. I know the Constitution. I've learned it. >> I know the Constitution, too. I also know that the states have the right to govern themselves. >> Has been turned into >> Oh, and I'm sure you're the expert. Yeah, I I have rights and I live in America. >> Correct. But you you you decide which laws to follow. >> Take orders from anybody. >> Nobody's giving you orders. >> Nobody's giving you orders. >> Uh obviously you are right now. >> No. Right now >> to jail. >> Yeah. Because you violated >> Florida state law. >> I violated a law that someone made up that that's not legal. >> The Constitution was made up. Yeah. >> By people. >> Yeah. And God. >> Those same people put laws into place even back then. >> Our our constitution was changed in 1776 and in 1871. >> I don't think it was changed in 1776. >> It it it was written in 1772. >> Ah, there we go. >> And it was it was changed in 1871. >> I have to take your word on that one >> cuz you haven't done the research >> cuz I don't need to. You're just playing a victim. I'm not I'm not playing a victim. >> That's what you're doing. >> I'm not a victim. I'll never be a victim. I hate that mentality. >> Then then then why are you playing all these excuses as to you don't need a driver's license? >> I have the laws in that car. That's why I ride around with them. >> Why? To educate. >> I have the book of the Constitution. >> To educate people like me. >> I don't think that you're interested in learning anything. I think that you're very stubborn. I don't think you know anything about me to even get to make that comment. >> Smith was arrested and charged with possession of cocaine, possession of drug paraphernalia, DUI, and driving without a license. The court adjudicated her guilty plea on drug paraphernalia and DUI charges. That means she could have the charges removed from her record if she completed one year of probation and met all of her sentencing requirements. But court records show she violated her probation in 2023 when an officer tried to pull her over for having a headlight out. And she refused to stop until she was in her driveway. She also still didn't have a valid driver's license. Our next suspect who refuses to cooperate is in Martin County, Florida. It's February 2024 and David Meansen apparently ran through a red light. But when it came time for him to identify himself, he was resistant. Eventually, the deputies resorted to force. >> Hello. How are you? >> Good. How are you doing? >> I'm good, thank you. >> What is the purpose for you pulling you over? >> The purpose for me pulling you over is because you ran through that red light. >> Oh, I did. >> You did? Yes, sir. >> It wasn't yellow. >> No, sir. It was solid red. >> No, it was. >> Yes. Do you have your license? >> Actually, uh, we're not going to do that. So, um, >> sorry. >> I don't know how to explain this to you, but I don't need to give you any identification. >> Okay. >> Yes, you do. I am requesting for your driver's license. >> Okay. Yes. >> Sir, we're not doing this. Okay. >> I'm requesting for your driver's license. >> For what? What crime was committed? >> Because I'm conducting a traffic enforcement. >> What crime was committed, though? >> You broke a traffic enforcement. >> You ran through a red light. >> That's for a CDL. I don't know. >> I'm sorry. >> Okay. Step out for me. >> I'm not stepping out of people. >> Step out for me. >> That's not happening. That's not happening. >> All right, sir. >> That's not happening. Take your hands off him. Step out for me. >> I'M NOT STEPPING OUT. I GOT A DOG HERE, TOO. CALL for backup, bro. >> Take my backup off. >> All right, step out. >> I'm not getting out. >> You're not TELLING ME WHAT I'M DOING, >> SIR. We're not doing this. >> No, we you damn straight. We're not. >> We're not doing this. >> Get your hands off of me. >> Step out. >> Get your hands off of me. >> I'm telling you one more time. Step five. >> Who do you think you are? >> Step out. >> Don't do that with the dogs here. >> Okay, then. Don't do this. >> Don't do it. >> Don't do this. >> Don't do it with the dog. >> Step out. Don't do it with the dog. >> Step out. >> What are you doing? Out of the car. Get the out of the car. Get the out of the car. >> What are you doing out of the car? Get your hands up on the ground. That's my dog. >> Yeah. >> The man's dog gets out of the car clearly concerned. So, deputies make sure it's safe in the car as they take Meansen into custody. >> I can't believe that. I can't believe you just punched me in the face. >> You're 100% right. I did. You pushed my hand off the freaking >> You want to try and get the dog back in the car? Come on. Hey, hold up. Hey, come here. Come on. Come on. Come here. Come on. Load up. Load up. Come on. Let's go. Come on. Go. Load up. Load up. >> Have a seat. Good. Good. Done. Now he >> went through a solid red light. He's like, I don't know why you stopped me. explain to him why I stopped him, asked him for his driver's license. He's like, "I don't have to give you my driver's license. That's only for CDL." And then I told him to step out. He's not stepping out. Told him several times, he's still not stepping out. Went to lock his door. He's like, and that's when I grab his hands. >> Yeah. So, and then I reach in. I got to try and open the door from the inside. He pushes my hands off. >> David. Yeah. >> Listen to me. >> I am giving you one opportunity to take care of your dog. Who can we call to get that dog? >> All right. Let me let me let me tell you something. >> Okay. >> I come from Massachusetts. >> That's fine. >> I've been down here for 2 years. >> Okay. >> I'm living inside my car. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> My girl and my baby live in another state and I'm paying for their rent and all their other. Okay. >> Okay. >> So, I do not have anyone that I can call right now off hand. We can come get the dog. Okay. Actually, maybe I can call someone from work. I work at ABC over there. >> Well, we're going to call animal control. Okay. >> Let me call Let me Can I call someone from work then? >> How fast can they get here? >> I don't They live down the street. >> Down the street. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Your phone in the car? >> Yep. >> Okay, >> I believe so. >> Hold on a sec. >> When the deputies look inside the SUV, they identify something that could have been used as a weapon against law enforcement. >> Yeah, he had that like axe right there. I was like, "Oh, >> yeah. He's got an axe in there >> right there. Right by the passenger or a hammer, something." >> Yeah, I thought that was >> right there. Could be a hammer. >> Right there. >> Nice. >> That's why I was like trying to grab his hand. I'm like, did he grab that? >> A deputy read Meansen his Miranda rights as he sat in the back of the patrol car. When asked if he understood his rights, he opted not to respond. Meansen was charged with obstructing an officer without violence, no registration, no insurance, and running the red light. He's decided to go prosay and represent himself in court. His next hearing is scheduled for May. We end today's after hours where a man's calm demeanor with officers didn't get him out of an arrest. An Oklahoma City officer spotted an SUV that didn't have an Oklahoma tag, so he went to check it out. >> How's it going, man? You all right? >> Yes, sir. >> You lost? >> No, sir. Well, we found it. It's where the crown vict. >> Okay. Are you working with like a church or something or what? >> Negative. My name is church. >> Okay, I got you. So, is this like what is this vehicle for the >> It's for me. >> Okay. I just noticed it's got it doesn't have like an actual license plate on the back. It just has your >> Is it like a business vehicle or what? >> No, according to the law, Title 47, I don't have to have a registered tag if I'm not conducting commerce. If I'm just uh in my personal activities, I don't need a tag. If I'm doing commerce, then I need a tag. >> Okay. Well, it's got like a Let me look at the plate real fast. >> Uh you got two statutes back there. Uh as well. >> Those are those those are these statutes. >> Why does it say not for hire on it? >> By law, it has to say that if if if I'm conducting commerce, then I have to say for hire. >> Okay. >> I'm not for hire. The law say I have to post it on my vehicle as not for hire. >> Okay. Do you have valid insurance on it? Uh, I'm not required to answer that. >> Okay. >> By law, but if you want to write me a ticket, I'll go ahead and take the ticket. >> Okay. >> That way, your day will go by faster. Am I >> Well, do you just have an ID? All I'm trying to make sure is you have a driver's license and stuff like that and I'll get you out of here. >> Well, um, I don't need a driver's license to drive. >> Okay. >> Because that's for people that's conducting commerce. >> Okay. >> The problem is they don't tell y'all that and they don't tell the citizens that. It is in law, but the problem is when we get out here. >> Uhhuh. >> Y'all don't know and we don't know. >> Okay. >> The law do say those who are conducting commerce have to have a driver's license. But if I'm in my regular conveyance, I already took the law down. >> Title 68-71 says I have a right to travel. >> Okay. All right. Who's in the back seat with you? >> She I'm taking her where that crown vict. >> Okay. All right. Hang on. Hang on just a second. Okay. >> No, no problem. When he heard the officer say Jackson might be a sovereign citizen, Jackson said sovereign citizens were on the same level as terrorists and he was not one of them. Jackson was arrested on complaints of knowingly removing a VIN, illegal tag display, driving under suspicion, and failure to show proof of insurance. It was reported at the time that Jackson planned to represent himself in court, but were unable to verify his case status at the time of this episode. Thanks for watching this week's episode. Long Crime after hours is written, researched, and produced by Savannah Williamson. Video editing is done by V. >> I'm gonna have to argue about everything from who she is to what the [music] charges. It'd be easier to just put on the prelimin. >> I'm representing myself in what I mean. >> Oh, I'm confused about what's actually going on. >> Still a crime. Still a crime. >> But I'm not a corporation. I'm a living person. [music] >> Yep. And that's why you're standing in front of me. If you were dead, the case would be dispensed. So-called sovereign citizens, people who don't really believe the US law applies [music] to them, have seen their movement growing over the last several years. And that means police and courts are dealing with them more and more. We're going to take a look at some times when defendants tried to use their sovereign [music] citizen defense. It backfired and they were put in their place. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. [music] Ah, sovereign citizens. Are they our favorites? Do we miss them? Do we miss talking about them? They certainly come up a lot in trials and courtrooms across the country. Now, to be clear, what are we talking about? What are we saying when we say sovereign citizen? Well, the sovereign citizen movement is a loose group of people who seem to believe the United States Constitution was changed from its original form. So, laws based on it are null and void. Basic idea here is that there is some conspiracy of foot, that the government is illegitimate, that the government does not have the authority over them. And we see this take the form of various justifications and legal arguments. Some sovereign citizens may drive without a license, others may avoid paying their taxes, and many times they choose to go prosay, representing themselves in court. But no matter the crime, judges across the country have learned to recognize when a defendant might be planning to cause some trouble with the sovereign citizen defense. I mean, do we forget our most notable one? I don't want to dedicate too much time to him because we've already talked about him so much, but Derell Brooks Jr., Wisconsin, the guy who was convicted of killing six people and injuring dozens of others when he drove a car through the 2021 WA holiday parade. He was sentenced to six life sentences plus 700 additional years in prison. And what really characterized his trial unfortunately was his odd behavior, his outbursts fighting with the judge, Judge Jennifer Daro, and his repeated sovereign citizen claims since he decided to represent himself. >> Do you wish to represent yourself in this case? >> Yes, I do. >> Before I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> I would like to represent myself pro per. >> What does that mean to you, sir? Explain to me that request >> again because I've already said it on record to represent myself as a sovereign citizen. >> I'm not going to make a determination, sir, whether you're a sovereign citizen or not. It's not relevant to my determination. how you characterize who you are. Sir, did you hear me tell you about the penalties for these offenses just now? >> I don't understand the nature and cause of the charges. >> I'm not asking you that, sir. Did you hear me advise you of the penalties for hit and run resulting in death? >> I don't understand. >> Mr. Brooks, any questions for this witness? Yes, I do. For the record, I don't consent to that name. >> Are we going to address subject matter jurisdiction? >> The written decision that I previously entered is what I will stand on. I'm not going to address it any further. >> Is that verified proof? >> Ah, what a delight he was. Do we miss him? No, we don't. He was an awful human being. But a lot of the themes that he talked about are going to be heard once again with what we're about to get into, these other apparent sovereign citizen moments in court. So, let's start this off. We begin in St. Joseph County, Michigan, in the courtroom of the Honorable Judge Jeffrey Middleton, a nononsense judge who just doesn't have time for anything that might be outside the law. So, in court today is Rosalind Ray Keenan. She's representing herself after being charged seemingly several times for resisting arrest. And it's immediately clear that Keenan plans to challenge just about everything Judge Middleton has to say. >> The title of the case is People versus Roslin Ray Keenan. allegation is that on or about May 16th in the village of White Pigeon, she did resist and obstruct a police officer and drive with a suspended driver's license. Resisting obstructing is a felony now. It's punishable by up to 2 years imprisonment and driving suspended as a traffic matter. punishable by up to 93 days in jail and a fine of up to $500, carries two points on your driving record, and requires that your license be suspended. Uh, someone who has identified as Rosland Keenan is present, and she wanted to explain more about that. We'll give her a chance to do that, but prosecuting attorney David Marvin is here, and uh, he's representing the state. Uh, so let me ask you again. Are you Roslin Ray Keenan? >> I'm here on as a [snorts] sui jurist appropriate persona Roslin hyphen ray colon family of Kenan, beneficiary. Is this on record? >> Yes. Everything has to be on the record. So it's all being recorded. >> Okay. I'm here on the special appearance and I'm a free woman on the land. I'm here under fraud, menace, and duress. I am the private woman. Roslin hyphen ray colon. >> All right. >> Kanan, the all capital mentioned name is the only appellation given to me. Anytime I autograph is to be done in in a certain manner that I have here or it's forgery. Could you judge please? Thank you. All right, I'll accept this. >> Thank you. >> All right, so I think we have the right person here. When she signed her bond, she signed it as Roselyn Ray Keenan beneficiary with quick bail bonds. >> The prosecuting attorney tells the judge that he's been working closely with Keenan trying to work out something that everyone can agree on without any courtroom shenanigans, but it's not meant to be. I have spent a lot of time with her and her son who's here who's always been here and they're very honest and they're good intended. >> Thank you. >> Um and I think that we've come to a resolution that I believe is fair. U I've offered I'm going to state state it for the record and only time will tell if she's going to accept it and hopefully two seconds. But what I would do is offer an attempt resisting and obstructing and dismiss count two. And in I would ask that the court set this for sentencing at a later date. And I'd ask for 6 months. And if by that time there's no other incidents with law enforcement or any other reason to continue, I would dismiss this or at any time before that if I felt that it was necessary. And again, after um working with her, I I don't think this is the kind of thing that should be um I would hate to see this upstairs as her first felony. I think that she's uh interested in a way of life that she's honestly trying to understand, but I think that um partly to assist her um I've kind of hatched this plan. He's offering to reduce the driving suspended charge and he is offering to dismiss the felony charge and reduce it to a charge called attempted resisting obstructing a police officer. That's a misdemeanor. It's punishable by up to a year in jail and a fine of up to $1,000. Do you understand that charge? >> No, [snorts] I don't understand the nature and the cause of the charge. >> All right, Mr. Marvin, let's just do a prelim. I'm not going to tap dance with her. You may be more sympathetic about this flat earth nonsense than I am. Uh but if I'm going to have to argue about everything from who she is to what the charge is, it'd be easier to just put on the prelim from the affidavit of probable cause or conduct was outrageous with a capital O. And uh so I'll give you one more opportunity. Uh, Miss Keenan, uh, Mr. Marvin is agreeing to dismiss the driving suspended charge. The record shows your license is suspended from Indiana and you don't have a valid Michigan license. That's a benefit. It won't affect your driving privileges. Um, >> excuse me, what did you say about the >> It's a benefit. And >> no, before that about the license. um he's dismissing it and it won't affect your driving privileges here or Michigan or Indiana if he dismisses that. Um so he's offering to dismiss it and that's a benefit. He is offering to reduce the felony charge to a misdemeanor and that's attempted resisting obstructing a police officer. Um, if you wish to do that, we can pursue it now. If you don't, we can take testimony. The officer's been waiting here for 3 hours. Um, what would you like to do? >> Are you asking me to take a plea? >> I'm asking you if you're willing to accept the prosecutor's plea offer. >> I don't understand that. >> Mr. Marvin, let's just put on a >> I'm serious. >> You are playing games. And first of all, you don't >> advance. All right. Stop. >> You don't interrupt the judge whether you're a flatearther or not. >> I'm not flat earth. >> All right. Well, this crazy stuff you're saying. I very little patience for it. Um, you don't have an attorney, which concerns me, uh, because these charges could result in your incarceration. I will appoint an attorney for you. All you got to do is tell me. Um, but you also have the absolute right to represent yourself. [clears throat] Um, so >> do you wish to represent yourself or would you like me to get an attorney to assist you with this? >> It's my right to appear for myself. >> It is. I don't think it would be a a violation of your oath of office >> to do what? >> To um if you did your duty under the Constitution because I'm seeking legal intent, not advice. >> Well, do you want me to appoint an attorney for you? Would you like to represent yourself? [snorts] >> So, may I ask what jurisdiction is this? Civil or criminal? >> This is a criminal case, which points out the fact that you could use a lawyer if you can't tell the difference between civil and a criminal case. >> Okay. I think we could all agree Kenan is out of her death and representing herself and reads some of the information she's found online about the court's jurisdiction or lack thereof. But the judge corrects her and reminds her she's being offered a pretty good deal. Things though go downhill from there. >> And my next question is I know that the constitution grants the court two types of criminal jurisdictions. One is criminal jurisdiction under common law and the other is criminal jurisdiction under admiralty or military tribunal venue under article 1 section 8 clause 17 of the constitution under which of these two jurisdictions is the court intending to try me? >> This is statutory jurisdiction of the law of the state of Michigan. It's not any of those things, including the wacky admiral [snorts] te uh clause people try to invoke. This is criminal jurisdiction uh authorized by the state legislature uh here in the state of Michigan. >> Thank you. Well, please let the record of the court show that the court intends to conduct a criminal action against me under a statutory jurisdiction. But that makes me wonder. I have never heard of criminal action under statutory jurisdiction and there is no such jurisdiction established in the constitution and I will be able to proceed if you can show me where I can find the published rules of civil procedures under a statutory jurisdiction and where this nature cause and jurisdiction exist. It is crucial that I have the published rules and procedure [clears throat] so that I can conduct a fair defense and fair trial. Otherwise, this needs to be dismissed and I would like it in writing, please. >> Uh, thank you. It's not civil procedure. It's criminal procedure and the defendant doesn't come up and show court. Tell me why I get to do this. You've been charged under the criminal statutes of the state of Michigan and have just advised you of that on the record. I'm just trying to establish at this point whether you want to represent yourself or not. Uh, as I mentioned, the conduct in here in the affidavit or the bond information report is outrageous with a capital O and you could [snorts] very well go to jail for a sub substantial period of time. Mr. [clears throat] Marvin was trying to extend to you an opportunity to avoid that option. Uh, but you're wasting all of our time with this stuff that doesn't have any legal merit. I'm offering to give you an attorney who could actually argue any legal merit or advise you or assist you in this regard, but we've had some white pigeon police officers here on overtime for several hours. They're still waiting uh for you to decide what you wish to do. I haven't even gone over the first. Well, first of all, we had to establish who you were. That took much more time than it deserved. Secondly, I'm trying to determine whether you wish to have an attorney or not. Uh again, you do have the right to represent yourself. You wish to, but you've exhibited to me that you don't understand the law. um and you're uh at risk of being incarcerated uh for this conduct. >> I'm competent and I am confident. Okay. >> All right. >> So, >> the next question is, are you willing to accept Mr. Marvin's plea offer to plead to the misdemeanor charge? >> I wasn't completed with what I wanted to say to you. please. >> Okay. >> May I? Thank you. So, I wanted to say that I don't believe it's a violation of your oath of office if you did your duty under the Constitution because I'm seeking legal intent. Okay. So, I have the right to peer for myself in order to intelligently defend myself. I have to know the jurisdiction this court is operating under because the rules of civil procedure under common law jurisdiction are very different from the rules of civil procedure or military tribunal venue. >> Stop. Stop. Stop. We went through this before. This is not civil procedure. The Sixth Amendment grants me the right to know the jurisdiction being applied. >> And I told you what it was. >> And it gives you the duty. >> All right, stop. If you interrupt me one more time, I'm going to find you in contempt and you're going to go to jail. >> All right, please. >> We're going to talk about this tomorrow at 3:00. I find that you're in contempt. >> You're going to jail right now and we will Well, you have been. >> This matter is adjourned until tomorrow at 3:00. rights, please. >> Well, you can think about it overnight in jail. >> This right now, please. >> No, you're going to jail for 24 hours. I know you don't wish to go to jail, but you certainly >> I will continue with you if you'll please let me finish. >> We'll talk about it tomorrow at 3:00 and you will be more respectful to the court. >> I can provide the >> You will not interrupt the court. Your [snorts] citations are meaningless. >> I'm sorry. I >> So, you can go with the officer. I don't want to argue about it. Take her out of here. We will address this tomorrow at 3:00. >> Stand up and put your hand. >> No, I can't give her aspects he has there. >> They'll get them for you. You can give all the paperwork to him. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Marvin. I don't know what you got tomorrow at 3:00. I don't know what I have, but we'll take another shot at this tomorrow. >> Justice takes time. >> Yeah, I know what's going on. I don't think this was a fair trial. >> We haven't had a trial yet. >> A fair preliminary. >> We ain't even get there yet. >> Kenan has to spend the night in jail on a contempt charge while her son was also in the courtroom and seems to want to help his mother through her legal troubles. >> That's it. Over. >> Yeah, we're done. >> Can I say something? >> Yes. was uh I don't think that she was trying to in contempt to court. She was trying to exercise a right and I think it was a [snorts] misunderstanding of how to for her to be able to pronounce that. But um well, I told her to stop and she didn't stop and she doesn't know what she's doing. She needs a lawyer and she's going to contempt herself into 90 days if she doesn't be careful. So, we'll address this tomorrow at 3:00. And to whatever extent you're advising her on this stuff, you're not doing her any favors. Mr. Marvin gave her the sweetest deal where she could not have a charge on her record and all she wants to do is argue about admins. >> Have that record still or that char that option still if I talk to Mr. Marvin? >> Yeah, I guess so. You can't represent her as a lawyer. >> I know, >> but he could. Yeah, he Mr. Marvel wants this to be over with. >> I do too. Thank you. >> The next day, Keenan is back in front of Judge Middleton and things go very differently this time. >> Miss Keenan had previously indicated she did not wish to have an attorney and there was no attorney on her behalf at that time. Prosecutor David Marvin was here yesterday and there was one or more police officers that were here yesterday prepared to testify. We didn't get very far. We started to go through the particulars, but Mr. Marvin made a plea offer. I want to repeat that, Miss Keenan. >> The prosecuting attorney wasn't able to be in the courtroom, but the offer he made the day before still stands. He stopped in this morning and confirmed to me that his plea offer was still open to dismiss the felony charge and the driving suspended charge for the plea to attempting to resist or obstruct a police officer. Uh we were talking with Miss Keenan yesterday. I found that she was in contempt and ordered that she go to jail and she did and we're here today. We were trying to establish um whether she wanted any legal assistance in this matter. So, Miss Keenan, you're the same person that you were yesterday with the same reservations and concerns. Is that correct? >> Thank you. Um, I have some things like proof that the license shouldn't have been suspended and they did reinstate them in Indiana. >> All right. Well, he's willing to dismiss that charge. >> I think that's why cuz I showed it to him. >> All right. Well, maybe. So, he said you and he had several discussions. Um, so let's see if we can get to square one here. Do you want an attorney to assist you in this matter? Um, I can appoint one and we can set it for further hearing. I don't want to force one on you, but I do think you could benefit from having counsel. Uh, it was clear you didn't understand the difference between a criminal case and a civil case, and you could tempted yourself into a day in jail. I won't be offended if you tell me that you want to have an attorney, in which case I would set this matter for further proceeding out two weeks. >> So if I choose to get an attorney, I have two weeks and then nothing else will be brought up today. >> Correct. Now you could enter the plea to the misdemeanor offer that Mr. Marvin made today. Um, but I do think you could benefit by having an attorney to assist you with this. >> In which case, um, I would continue it to the 5th of July. That's two weeks from today in the afternoon. Usually, it' be on a Tuesday, but that's a holiday. Um, it would be 1:00 on July 5th. >> Am I going to be still having to stay at the county jail? Wait till >> Well, let's talk about that. No, you posted a $10,000 cash or shity bond. However, you've not agreed to be fingerprinted. So, as soon as you agree to be fingerprinted, you can be released from jail. Otherwise, you're going to sit there for two weeks. >> All right. Would you like me to appoint an attorney for you? >> Yes. If I appoint an if you appoint an attorney [snorts] >> um >> defense attorneys. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Here's your son. All right. I'm going to appoint an attorney which I think you could benefit from. I guess [clears throat] you can always say later, I don't want one, but it looks like you have an opportunity to consult with one. >> Thank you. But you're not to be released until you complied with the booking process, including photo and fingerprints. >> Excuse me. >> Yes, sir. >> Today I uh I think it was today or maybe cuz I slept a lot, so I Anyway, they booked me and took my picture. >> All right. Well, the picture's done. >> That's good enough. But you have to agree to the fingerprints. >> Oh, I still have to do the fingerprints. >> And you can decide whether you want to do it. If you don't, that's up to you. I'm going to do it. >> All right. >> Because I appreciate your offer. Thank you. >> Seems Kenan learned her lesson, at least this time around. But what about our next defendant? So now we're talking about a man named James Garner appearing virtually in a Detroit courtroom in front of Judge Shawn Perkins. And there is a lot of confusion right off the bat. >> Good morning to you, sir. >> Good morning. >> What is your What is your middle name? Can you remove your hat, please? and your scarf. What is your middle name, Mr. Gar? >> Earl. >> Earl. >> No, >> he's on the 130 docket, your honor. I believe >> James Garner. Earl Garner. [snorts] James E R O L Garner. Right. >> Yes. You are on the 130 docket. >> If you want, your honor, I can give house counsel an offer right now. She can report it to him. >> On James Garner, do you see all the cases he has? >> Uh, I see just the uh four that are on the docket or five. He's got more. >> He's got plenty more. >> Okay. You want me to come down, review, and do a global offer? if you could please. >> Okay. I'm on [snorts] my way down. >> Mr. Garner, do you want to offer on these or do you want to go to trial? >> Okay. >> I would like to know what the charges are. >> Okay. This is the city of Detroit versus James Earl Garner. Case number SP1100435. Counts one, two, and three. SP11695. That's those are um driveral license expired uh misdemeanor, no insurance uh insurance misdemeanor. Thank you. And an improper plate misdemeanor. All of them punishable by maximum possible penalty of of 93 days in jail and or $500 in fines. SP 1169507. Counts one and counts two, expired license, a no insurance misdemeanor, both punishable by 93 days in jail and or $500 in fines. SP 111695121. Same improper plates, same punishment, $500 in 93 days in jail and or $500 in fines, maximum possible penalty. >> Okay, that is a lot of charges and citations. the judge slogging his way through all of them, but he doesn't seem to get much further after that. >> Appearance for the record, please. >> Cherica Harris, on behalf of Mr. Garner, Mr. Garner, please state your name for the record. >> Uh, first off, uh, I do have a couple. >> You got to state your name first. You got to state your name first. >> Wait a minute, Miss Harris. Wait a minute, Miss Harris. I think Mr. Gar is going to represent himself. Am I correct, Mr. Garner? >> I'm representing myself in what? I mean, >> oh, >> I'm confused about what's actually going on. First off, who who's alleging these charges? That's what I'm curious about. >> State of Michigan, city of Detroit. [snorts] >> Okay. Well, if that's the case, there's a common law principle which states that for there to be a crime, there must be a victim. Corpus electi. The state cannot be the injured party and in the absence of a victim there can be no crime. >> I'm drawing my name from the record on that one. Thank you. >> I know. >> How do you want to proceed, Mr. Garner? >> Set the matter. I not guilty plea on his behalf. Give him a Z bond. either set the matter for trial or um or I'll wait I'll wait for the city to give you an offer. What do you want to do? >> Well, the court have didn't even establish jurisdiction. I mean in order for juris jurisdiction has to be established first and there's no jurisdiction established and once jurisdiction is challenged once jurisdiction is challenged that must be settled before charges can be brought. >> All right. Do you want to do you want to put that in a motion sir? As as far as I'm concerned, any and all charges must be dismissed because there is no complaining witness and the state cannot be >> I'm not going to I'm not going to listen. I'm not going to uh I'm going to if I'm if you want if that's your motion, I'm going to deny the motion. Okay? So, all we're going to do now, we're not going to go keep going back and forth. Either you take an offer or you set the matter for trial. Which one do you want? >> Respectfully, in order for this to continue, there must be a complaining witness and the state cannot be a complaining witness. Now, if I'm entitled, if I'm entitled to a fair trial, the law states there must be a victim. I I'm ask I'm just requesting who is the victim? Who did I eat? >> The citizens, the citizens of the city of Detroit and the state of Michigan are the victims. >> The state and cannot be a victim. And if that's the case, >> the citizens, I said the citizens of the city of Detroit and the state of Michigan are the victims. >> If that's the case, >> Mr. Mr. Garner, >> Mr. Garner, uh, can can we just go into a breakout room and and then maybe I can give you a little bit of advice to assist you with moving forward? Would you be agreeable to that? >> Sure. >> Okay. Awesome. >> Garner comes back to the public Zoom meeting, but he's still uncooperative and the judge has had enough. >> I believe [snorts] he's ready, your honor. He's uh representing himself. >> Let's go back on the record for Garner. What do you want to do, Mr. Garner? You want you want a trial date or you want an offer? Those are those are your really your only two options. >> Okay. Since we are on the record, all I'm asking for is the >> Okay, one last time. One last time. Now, now listen, here's how it's going to go from this point on. If you don't answer the question that I asked specifically, then I'm going to hold you in contempt of court and we're going to move from that point on. Right. Get up, Mr. Raymond. So you're telling me >> Mr. No, Mr. Garner, we're not going to violate a conversation. Stop, sir. Stop, sir. >> Now, that's the last time I'm going to ask you to law. Is that what I'm hearing? >> All right. I'm >> I'm going to hold Mr. Garner in contempt of court. He is He is directly violating the court's order. I've asked him repeatedly to not uh uh uh interfere or or or or or add any extra commentary to this case. I've given him ample time to answer the court's question and he continues to refuse to do so. So now I'm going to hold you in contempt and I'm going to sentence you to 30 days Wayne County jail. No early release. So that means that the court is just going to violate my rights because I'm defending myself. Is that what I'm hearing? >> 30 days Wayne County Jail. No early release. >> Oh boy. All right. Next up, we're in Michigan. This time in Lena County. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing it. A man scheduled to appear before Judge Anna Marie Anzelone. The judge spots him in the back of the courtroom. >> What's your name? >> I'm here to represent You're Brian Muskro. >> I have no idea what that means. So, why don't you come up to the podium? >> I tried to. >> Nope. Yeah. Stand in front of the thing. So, what is your name? >> Brian Joseph Muskro. >> Okay. Are you an attorney? What's your P number? >> I'm not an attorney. >> So, then you can't represent Brian Musgrove. So, you are a defendant, correct? executive on that on that estate. >> Okay. So, none of that is valid or legal. So, you have an attorney. >> He's not doing nothing for me. >> Okay. That was my question. Do you have an attorney? Yes or no? >> I have. Yeah. He was supposed to represent me, but >> So, you have Michael Dagger Marggoian? >> Okay. So, he's your attorney. Okay. So, go have a seat. When Mr. Dagger Marggoian gets here, I'll call your case. Okay. When Brian Musgrove's case is called around half an hour later, a lawyer is there to help him out, but Musgrove just keeps digging himself a deeper hole. >> I'm going to take care of Mr. Dagger Marggoian's case. So, give me just a minute, Miss Hunter, and we'll come back to you. Okay. >> Thank you. >> If you're ready to do the plea today. >> Yes, we are, your honor. >> All right. So, Mr. Muskro, if you want to come up to the podium, please. This is in the matter of the people of the state of Michigan versus Brian Joseph Musgrove. File number 23-21461FH. I have Isaac Sme appearing on behalf of the people. And I have Michael Dagger Marggoian appearing on behalf of Mr. Musgrove. Um Mr. Dagger Marggoian. Mike. Oh, there he is. So, um Mr. Mr. Dagger Margoian, this is a date and time set for pre-trial on this matter. Mr. Musgrove said that he was appearing on his own behalf. I did verify he is not an attorney and you are still the attorney of record. So, um, Mr. Dagger Marggoian, how do you wish to proceed? >> Well, your honor, I I am aware that Mr. Musgrove uh wants to present information to the court. I'm happy to be stand by council if he wants to represent himself. Obviously, this court would have to go through the colloquy of that, but um obviously it's Mr. Muskro's uh legal right to at least ask the court to do that. So, I'm I'm here to observe at this point. >> All right. So, Mr. Musgrove when you were at the bench or up at the podium before you you said that you were appearing on behalf of yourself. So Mr. Musgrove um are you asking to no longer have council represent you? >> Um well if what what I'm understanding is that the courts is a private for >> So Mr. Muskro, I know where you're going with this and none of that is valid. >> None of that is law. >> I'm not the all caps name. Of course, >> none of that is valid. None of that is law. You are standing in my courtroom. I have jurisdiction over you. >> So, I tried to file paperwork with the clerk's office ahead of time so that you would have time to review it, and they denied me. >> I know what you're talking about. None of that is valid under the law of the state of Michigan or the Constitution of the United States of America. >> What do you mean it is? >> No. >> The Supreme Court says it is. >> What does it say it is? >> The Supreme Court says that if you we were at the age of 18, we were supposed to take uh claim our our minor status. >> Nope. Not valid. >> Okay. >> So, here's what I would say to you. Mr. Dagger Marosian is like most of our public defenders, exceptional attorneys and very well-versed in the law and very experienced. He gives legal advice. You may not like the legal advice, but it's usually good advice. I've never had anyone from the public defenders office um not wholeheartedly try to represent their clients. So, what you are talking about is not valid and it is not going to get you out of this case. You're not going to be able to say all those things. It's not valid. >> Everyone in this involved in this court case is has a financial interest in the case. It's what >> I don't have a financial interest in your case. I get paid by the state of Michigan. Whether you plead, whether it gets dismissed, I don't make any money off you. >> We have budgets. The court system is not a profit generating revenue. We are here to represent people so that people who are charged with crimes are protected. People who are victims of crimes are protected. And that's why we have >> in order for there to be a crime, there has to be a victim. There there is no >> Well, there is a victim in this case. >> The victim would be the company. >> You are charged. [clears throat] >> I can't just hold on. So your crime that you are charged with which you are innocent as of this time. Let me grab the right file is fail. Oh this is an a let me see this is an embezzlement charge. So you are charged in count one with embezzlement 50,000 or more but less than 100,000 that being an agent servant or employee of Hardwoods of Michigan Industries did convert to your own use without the consent of your employer or principal. industrial tools and equipment in the amount of $68,938.40 or money or equipment. And that's a 15-year felony. So, if you are found guilty by a jury, you can go to prison for up to 15 years. You're charged in count two with using a computer to commit a crime to facilitate the charge in count one. That carries a maximum penalty of up to 10 years in prison. And the way the statute is set up, I can actually stack those possibly. So you potentially could be looking at up to 25 years in prison. So the victim that's alleged in this would be that business, >> right? And I can't face that accuser because that business can't get on the stand for me to ask questions and a third party. >> But their representative can. Yes, they can. Yes, they can. Yes, they can. So I have 189,000 of student loan debt that was forgiven to be a lawyer. You do not. And Mr. Dagger Marggoi and Mr. Isaac Sneed. All of the attorneys here went to law school to know the law and their job is to advise you of the law. >> So yes, they can. Yes, >> everything. All the laws and statutes that you guys go by are corporations. >> They're for still a crime. Still a crime. >> But I'm not corporation. I'm a living person. >> Yep. And that's why you're standing in front of me. If you were dead, the case would be dismissed. >> Yeah. The the all cap's name is dead. >> That means nothing. That's not valid. That's not legal. [clears throat] >> So, do you want to represent yourself or do you want to have an attorney to represent you? >> I I need some time to think. >> Okay. So, I'm going to set this for another pre-trial on March 20th at 8:30 in the morning. And Miss Adams, could I get a notice of hearing from Mr. Musgrove? I got to give it to judges like Judge Anselone explaining the basics to these people, explaining the basics of the law, the fundamental process we have despite this nonsense. That's a good level of patience. And also, it's her duty to explain the rights even though it can get incredibly incredibly frustrating. All right, so we're going to end this now in Prese County, Michigan, where Judge Aaron Gothur is dealing with a repeat defendant, Angela Christensen. >> Just like last time, I'm required each time to remind you that you do have the right to the assistance of a lawyer if you wish. and um that [clears throat] includes the right to a lawyer at public expense if you uh were indigent and that you've previously waved that right and wish to represent yourself. And so I guess I want to ask you again, do you uh reaffirm that you'd like to represent yourself in this matter or would you like to have a lawyer? >> No, I would like to self-govern and I stand on my paperwork. The prosecuting attorney points out that the paperwork Christensen has filed doesn't really make any sense. >> The people have any argument in opposition to those four notices? Your honor, I've reviewed the paperwork and I guess while she may not recognize or honor the state of the law, I I don't believe that there's any relief that's recognized under law that would allow you to dismiss this this case against her based on what she's alleged in the paper. I just fail to see it. >> Okay. Isn't it fun to just say, "Hey, this is why the case should be dismissed, X, Y, and Z." Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. The judge goes through the paperwork himself and explains why each of the reasons she cites for wanting the case dropped aren't valid. >> I've got a a written order that I'll enter. I'll I'll read it at this point. Defendant, who at this point in the case is representing herself, has filed four handwritten notices. These notices appear to seek relief in one form or another. As to the first notice, defendant asserts that she is a woman and not a defendant. The court finds that Angela Christensen is both a woman and a defendant in this criminal action. To the extent her notice seeks relief, such relief is denied. As to the second notice, defendant demands that any man or woman with a claim against her appear and present such claim in open court. To the extent that this notice seeks to invoke defendants's right to confront her accusers, this court will enforce that right. However, the right of confrontation does not require the complaining witnesses to appear at all pre-trial hearings, but only the trial or any necessary evidentiary hearings. So, to the extent that this notice seeks to require the appearance of any complaining witnesses at all pre-trial hearings, such relief is denied. As to the third notice, defendant asserts that this court lacks authority over her and that only her creator has that authority. Without gaining the authority of the creator, it can be noted that religious traditions commonly recognize that the creator has instituted human authority as well. In this matter, the people of the state of Michigan through ratifying the 1963 state constitution as well as its predecessor constitutions have established this court and its authority. The people of the state of Michigan through their elected representatives have established laws that apply in this court. And the people of this county have elected this judge to serve in this office. And this court has subject matter over this felony prosecution and has personal jurisdiction over this defendant. Any relief sought by this notice is denied. As to the fourth notice, defendant claims that this court and the government exists only because she allows them to exist. To the extent that this assertion reiterates the proposition that our constitutional republic is founded on the consent of the govern, such proposition is axiomatic as a general matter. However, this proposition does not require that the government must obtain consent or permission from each individual person before exerting governmental authority over that person. Such an idea is nonsense. This defendant's views would render all the criminal laws null and void, which is legally and practically absurd. Therefore, any relief sought by this notice is also denied. All right. So, Miss Christensen, [clears throat] uh, all of the claims and papers that you have filed, I have found to be lacking in legal and factual merit, and I have denied any such relief, and I'm entering >> Please stop referring to me as a defendant. And I guess the next step will be I guess I got to do the actual filing of the claims if you're going to deny all of those. >> No, those I don't know what claims you're talking about. You filed some claims or or notices or requests? >> No, I did not even file my claims yet. I did notices. I did not file my claims yet. I've been putting that off because I really don't want to have to file claims and ruin people's lives and ruin their jobs because they're not upholding my constitutional rights as a woman, not a defendant. I am a woman only. I woman Angela. I woman Angela. I woman Angela. That's it. Not defended. >> Trying to follow Christensen's logic and understanding of the law is pretty difficult to say the least. But the judge pushes through. >> Your opinion and legally, yes. But I am a woman. So, do we need to do trial by jury when we can do my claims and file my court with your court at the same time? because that's going to be my next step to file claims against everybody involved in this case because there is no verified claim and complaints and claims are two different things. I don't want to file claims. I'm trying very hard and I've been trying hard to not do that. But I guess if we got to keep going, that's my next step. And I will file proper claims with the proper people and the insuranceing for the bonding. So I don't know what you want to do at this point and I really don't want to have to do that. So, so here here's the thing. [clears throat] I am not going to relinquish my authority in this case. I'm not. All right. The prosecutor's office can dismiss the case. They're choosing not to. So, that means we do have to go forward to a jury trial unless you want to plead guilty. All right. But what I'm also going to do [clears throat] is your your ramblings here today and at previous hearings and after I reviewed your written notices, it's clear to me that you have no concept of the legal and factual issues at stake. And >> I would never know anything about legal ease because I never went to school to do that legal ease. So I don't understand that part. >> All right. You're illustrating my next point. And you have no respect for the authority of the court. you continue to interrupt me and such and file these nonsense claims. So, I am hereby withdrawing my consent for you to represent yourself. I'm referring this matter to the office of assigned counsel for appointment. So, any papers you file in this case, I will reject because they have to be filed. >> I don't accept that offer and I do not require you to give me any courtappointed attorney and I will self-govern because that is my right. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful. I'm trying to be very decent. >> Well, >> I stand on my paperwork and I'll do the rest of my paperwork. I will keep doing it and now I'm going to file my claims. So, that's fine. But no, I don't need no legal counsel. I refuse that offer. I do not accept that offer. I'm sorry. With all due respect to you, I I don't accept that. >> The judge is done dealing with this case and tells Christensen that she's getting an attorney whether she likes it or not. and I'll refer it to the office of assigned counsel for you to have an attorney at that hearing. You are no longer allowed to represent yourself in this matter and you will be in person in my courtroom at that date and time. >> I'm sorry, but I cannot be there. I can do it via Zoom and I don't accept that offer either unless you want to compensate me for my gas and my time. >> Want to have you here so you can meet your attorney. Miss Christensen, stop interrupting me. It's not an offer. you will be here or I will issue a warrant for your arrest if you refuse to attend in person. All right, we'll see you February 14th or I'll issue a warrant for your arrest. >> This is all just a great reminder that no matter how many court shows or movies you watch or how many trials you live stream right here on Law and Crime, it is a good idea to have an attorney with you. Always be represented by an attorney. Look, I'm an attorney. I went to law school. We studied this stuff for years. You're going to be in better hands with an attorney.