inside the house. >> I don't think we can go inside with this smoke. >> Cover me. >> Who's covering? >> Who's covering? >> I got I got you. We got you. It's going to be in your best interest to go home. Well, >> Steve, my best interest is to help people that live here in Roy. And you're one of those people. >> An hours'sl long standoff ends in a deadly shooting after a Utah man tells police to quote, "Bring a coroner to the scene. >> You're going to need a coroner." >> I'm going to need a coroner. >> Yep. >> What corner? You're going to bring one to this side. >> A coroner? I thought you said a coroner. >> No. >> No. Let Let's Steve, I know your dad's talked about it. We can work through anything, man. That's I'm going through difficult times right now. You know what I mean? >> No. >> Okay. Don't do anything. On July 7th, police in Roy, Utah were called to an apartment complex for reports of a man with multiple weapons. >> Hello. >> Hello. This is Weber 911. Am I Was I just speaking to you? I think we were disconnected. >> I think we were. I need a >> Okay. What's going on at that address? I have the address here. >> Um, he is threatening to commit suicide. He has guns in the house. His mother's in the house. >> And has he given you a method? He said he's going to use the guns or what exactly did they say? >> Did he say he was going to use the guns? >> Yes, he did. Go. >> Yes, he said he was his name. >> His name is Steven Kirkman. >> Callers told 911 Dispatch the suspect, 39year-old Steven Kirkman, was making suicidal statements. >> I need you guys to get there. His mom's in the house. >> Okay, we have officers on the way now. Okay. What exactly did he say to you? Um, take care of it, sister. >> I'm I'm so sorry. Can you say that again? I can't I can understand you. >> Sorry. He said to take care of his sister cuz he was killing himself. Body camera video shows Roy police officers approach the front door where Kirkman's mother is standing in the doorway. >> This is going to be tricky on this landing. Door's open. Okay, go taser. >> Taser, Steve, come out here, ma'am. Steve. Steve, let me see your hands right here. You just shoot him. No. >> Where's the gun? >> In his hand. >> Ma'am, come out here. Is it the rifle? >> Yes. And a handgun. Steve. >> Steve, let me see your hands. >> He's got a gun in his hand. >> STEVE. MA'AM, COME OUT. >> Come out, ma'am. >> No. No. Back out. Back out. Ma'am, come out. Ma'am, you're making this worse. >> At first, Kirkman's mother refuses to leave the area, but officers eventually get her away from the apartment. >> We were 318. If you got somebody else, he's got the 88 to She's refusing to come out. >> He needs help. He needs help. >> I know, but you got her right here. >> He needs help. Yeah, ma'am. I need you. >> We want to help him, but you got to come out. Okay. Out. Back up. Back down. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Let's go. Just >> Come on. Come on. >> Come on. Come on. Go downstairs. Go downstairs. Go downstairs. >> We got mom out and you're backing out. Okay, come on. Keep going. Let's keep going. Come on. Let's get out of these stairwells. Okay. >> What proceeds next is a standoff that lasts for hours as officers work to calm Kirkman and bring him help. >> It looks like it's a it's a rifle. >> LEAVE IT. >> PUT THE GUN DOWN. >> NOBODY WANTS TO HURT YOU. >> It's a rifle. >> LEAVE IT. >> PUT THE GUN DOWN. DROP THE GUN AND WALK OUT TO ME, BUDDY. Walk out. I need your help. You're not in trouble. >> It looks like it's a gun. >> It looks like it's a shotgun. >> What? I can't go over there with the gun. You got to put it down. I'll take you to the hospital myself. You got to put the gun down, my man. Drop it. >> Listen, man. Hey, YOU KNOW ME. HEY, >> we talk all the time, bro. >> No. If you put the gun down, PUT THE GUN DOWN. I'M NOT GOING TO COME UP THERE WITH THE GUN IN HAND. >> A Ring doorbell camera recording shows Kirkman's actions mid standoff as he comes outside and sets down two weapons. out of your pocket. Keep your hand out. Next, officers speak to Kirkman over the phone, reassuring him mental health experts are on the scene. >> You put on speaker phone for just a second. >> Steve, >> hey. Hey, Steve. I'm officer here. I got your dad here. We got some help down here for you. We got the mobile crisis. Uh we got some therapists out here ready to talk to you. So, we got some help down here. We're just waiting on you. We got your dad right here wants to talk to you as well. You You've committed no crimes. All right. We You're experiencing uh uh an outcry for help, which we need to give to you, man. >> Okay. There's one of two things that are about to happen. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yep. And what and what are those things, Steve? >> I don't want to harm any of you because I like all of you. >> Appreciate it, Steve. We we like you as well. >> But if anyone comes through that door in this moment, >> um Steve, I understand this. We're not coming to the door. >> All right. and even go home. >> Kirkman then tells officers it's in their best interest to leave the area and threatens shooting through the door. >> It's going to be in your best interest to go home. >> Well, Steve, my best interest is to help people that live here in Roy and you're one of those people. >> Okay. >> One of a few things is about to happen. >> And we're not coming to the door, Steve. I'm going to fire around out that door or you're going to leave. >> As officers work to evacuate the apartments underneath Kirkman's, he makes concerning statements. >> Hey, Steve. So, what we got to do is we just got to get those people that are right below you out and we are leaving. Okay, that's what you want, right? That's what we can do. Okay. We're not coming up to your story. We're not coming up to the third level. We just got to get the people out of the second level is all. >> All right. >> I have eyes on you. >> What's that? >> I have eyes on you. >> That's all right. It What do you want to do? You want to come out of the while we go get the second tears? >> You can leave them there. They're not going to be harmed. >> I know, Steve. But it's We got to also look out just to make sure. I I I believe that I believe that you that you would uh won't harm them, but they are also sitting there just really scared. So, part of our job is also to make sure that they're safe. So, we'll get them out if that's good and we'll let you stay here and uh I mean, if you if you don't want to accept the help that we're trying to give you, we will leave. Okay. But we got to get those people out of the second level first. >> 18 is open. You want to come through that door, >> Steve? We're not even coming to the third level. >> Okay. He's saying he can see everybody. Just watch your cover. >> Okay. We're not coming to the third level. >> Come through the door. >> Well, we're not going to do that. >> That's a bad idea. >> That's the bad idea. Yeah. >> I'm going to walk outside and grab my shotgun. Okay. Well, don't grab the shotgun, though, Steve. Just leave the shotgun there. We're not coming to the third level. >> That ain't going to happen. I'm going to grab it and come back inside. >> Okay. Well, we're not going to we're not come to the to to your level, Steve. So, I don't know what what you need the shotgun for. >> Bring it back inside in my possession. >> Kirkman then insists he needs to grab his weapon. Good. >> Don't touch it, Stephen. Stephen, there >> I'm not going to harm I'm not going to harm any of you. >> Drop the pistol. >> Stephen, drop the pistol, my man. >> I'm not going to harm any of you. >> DROP THE PISTOL. COME DOWN. >> It's then that Kirkman makes the chilling comment about a coroner and mentions a body count. >> You're going to need a corner. >> I'm going to need a corner. >> Yep. What corner? >> You're going to bring one to this side. >> A coroner? I thought you said coroner. >> No. >> No. Let Let's Steve, I know your dad's talked about it. We can work through anything, man. That's I'm going through difficult times right now. You know what I mean? >> Okay. Don't do anything. >> How many bodies do you want to say? >> Zero. That's zero. I want zero bodies. >> And you never tell everyone to leave. >> Tell me tell me uh tell me what >> the next thing inside of your mouth better be have a nice leave. Otherwise, I'm going to step out on the >> not accepting number two. >> Your choice. In the end, Kirkman comes out of the apartment armed with a rifle, points it at first responders, and racks the gun. That's when two officers open fire. >> He's raising the shotgun. >> Steve, we need you to put the gun down. We need you to come to the front door with nothing in your hands, please. >> What's he doing? >> We need you to come to the front door with nothing in your hands. So he's got to Huh? >> Yeah. So he's got to still be on the thing cuz he slid the >> We understand you're bleeding. >> He slid the screen the screen door back closed. >> Shoulder. Anybody that doesn't be >> Steve, we need to get you medical help. Come down to the base or come down the stairs with no gun. He's aiming it at >> He's aiming it over here. >> He's pointing it like >> Okay. >> He just racked it. >> Yeah. >> First responders performed life-saving measures on Kirkman, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. The shooting is still under investigation. You want me to sue the son of aing county sheriff because he arrested my kid on a false warrant? >> A Utah County Commissioner is accused of using his authority to intimidate law enforcement when his son is arrested for an outstanding warrant. >> What do you want me to do? >> I want you to turn him loose. >> I can't turn him loose. Bruce, >> who can? >> Nobody can. He's been arrested for a warrant. The courts can. >> And the warrant's false. >> Huh? The warrant's not false. The incident stems from a November 25th traffic stop when Kenneth Adams was pulled over for failure to signal and stop fully at a stop sign. >> How's it going? I'm good. What did I do wrong? >> Okay. So, the reason I stopped you is you didn't come to a complete stop at the stop sign. >> I did. >> And then you didn't have your turn signal on. >> Sure did. Body camera video shows San Juan County Sheriff's deputies speaking with Adams, who maintains he did not violate any rules. >> Okay, >> I know for a fact I had my turn signal on. Okay, >> that's why I was surprised you were pulling me over, but whatever. >> When officials run Adams's ID, they find a warrant out for his arrest. >> Walk back up there. Have him step out. Well, no, he's we place an arrest for a warrant. It is active war. >> As officials reapproach the vehicle, Adams becomes argumentative. >> All right. Can can I get you to step out of the vehicle with me? >> What are you doing? No. What? What's going on? Seriously, what's going on? >> You have a warrant. >> How do I have a warrant? >> Adams tells officers the warrant is a mistake, saying he already appeared in court. >> I don't know how you have a warrant, but it's on our system right now. You have an active warrant out of seven district court here in San Juan. >> I've gone to No, that's incorrect. I've gone >> Well, it's on our system right now. >> Well, you argue with you about it. You're going to go to jail tonight on that warrant. Okay. >> Um, no I'm not. I don't >> Excuse me. Like, no. >> Okay. >> This is Dude, this is absurd. >> Mr. Adams, you do have an active warrant for your arrest. >> And who? And well, who who issued the warrant, though? >> The the court is for for what, though? Cuz I've gone to court for everything. There should not be an active warrant for me anywhere, dude. >> Eventually, Adams agrees to get out of the vehicle. After that, he calls his mom. >> What's that? >> I'm calling my parents. >> Okay, you can call him. I'm going to put you in couch real quick. >> I'm getting arrested. Apparently they think there's a warrant out for my arrest now and there's not. But I'm out by Eastland. I'm getting arrested right now. Eastland and they're arresting me right now. The cops are mom. Who else would arrest me? >> Adams repeatedly tells his mom the call is not a joke. >> I'm going to jail. >> Mom, they are handcuffing me right now. I I've asked them for the warrant and they they won't they don't tell me anything about a search warrant. >> So, for using >> nothing, not for using anything, Mom. They're arresting me because they said there was a warrant for me. >> Okay, I'm hanging the phone up. >> No, I'm not kidding, Mom. >> Sheriff's deputies escort Adams to the back of a squad car where he continues to ask about the warrant. >> Well, then my question is is who This is a joke. This is seriously the biggest joke I've ever heard of. When you when you when you turned on your lights, I knew there was some bully going on. >> Was issued October 13th >> for what? >> This year >> is when the warrant was issued. >> For what? >> I had some felony charges, burglary charges, >> dude. I've been to court for that. No. No. I've been to court for that. >> All right. Listen to this officer. >> Look that way real quick so >> um Well, if I've been to court then that then why am I getting arrested? >> I don't know. I don't know what all the court's purposes are for filing the warrant. All I know is there is a warrant. Okay. So that's going to be up to you and the courts to be able to figure that out. All right. >> Officials eventually read off the list of charges against him. >> You want to know the charges? >> Yeah, I do. >> So it has two burglary charges listed. A theft charge mischief. >> That's all my old case. >> Uh three charges of burglary of a vehicle and criminal trespass. >> Yeah. What? What? Why is that floating up now? >> Adams then asks whether someone can pick up the vehicle for him. >> Is this your vehicle? >> It's my rental. Yeah, >> your rental. Okay. So, can my parents at least come and get it? >> Sheriff's deputies then call Adams's mom about the vehicle. >> Hey, this is Deputy Giddings. How you doing? >> Good. >> Good. I Good. >> Well, I know. I'm sorry. We were just calling to let you know that the car that Kenneth has, if you guys are willing to come pick it up, it's over here about mile post 6 on 491. >> After Adams is taken to the county jail, his father, San Juan County Commissioner Bruce Adams, arrives on the scene. What do you want me to do? >> Well, we're letting you take the car so we don't have to impound it. >> I don't want it impounded. >> I know. That's why we're letting you take it. >> Deputy Wyatt Holio wrote in his report that Bruce Adams was quote trying to use his influence as a county commissioner to intimidate him. He also stated that Bruce Adams swared him multiple times demanding to see his son's warrant. >> Okay. Where's Kenneth? >> He's in jail. They took him. >> You took him to jail. They took him to jail and I stayed here with the car. >> Why? >> For a warrant. >> Who do I call to find out? >> To find out the warrant? >> You're a police officer. Tell me who I call to find out why he's in jail. >> Deputy Holio then calls his boss asking whether he's allowed to show Adams his son's warrant. >> Hey boss. Hey. So I got Bruce Adams here. Um Braden took Kenneth to jail on a warrant. Can I show Bruce the warrant? What's the protocol there? Yeah, he's pretty mad. Eventually, the deputy is given the okay to show Adams the warrant. >> I got to be careful with this stuff, Bruce. You understand that? Okay, that's the warrant. Okay, so it says warrant status active. Offense, burglary, burglary, theft, criminal mischief, burglary of a vehicle, burglary of a vehicle, burglary of vehic >> criminal trespass normal, seventh district court. >> Bruce, we don't have anything to do with that. All we know is that the is that the warrant issues a current that the court issues a warrant. That's all we know. >> Adams pushes back saying his son has already been to court and accepted a plea of obeyance. >> Hell, he's been to court and been charged. He he has a plea and abadance on all that. >> I I don't know, Bruce. I have no idea. >> Who knows? >> The courts you can the courts know. >> I can't get to the court until Monday, >> right? because of a son of a false arrest. >> It's you saw the warrant right there. I I showed you he's been charged with that and he has a plea obeyance on all of it. >> Adams then asked the deputy to release his son from jail. >> What do you want me to do? >> I want you to turn him loose. >> I can't turn him loose, Bruce. >> Who can? >> Nobody can. He's been arrested for a warrant. The courts can. >> And the warrant's false. >> Huh? The warrant's not false. The warrant. >> After that, he threatens to pursue legal action against the county. Do you want me to sue the son of aing county sheriff because he arrested my kid on a false warrant? >> The warrant's right there. >> Kenneth Adams was released from jail days after his arrest, and the warrant was later withdrawn. Long Crime Network reached out to Bruce Adams for a comment on this story, but have not yet heard back. >> This case put a rural part of Utah on edge overnight. Three women murdered, two on a hiking trail, one in her home. And even after the arrest, we still don't know why this happened. Now, this is the suspect. His name is Ivan Miller. Here's his mug shot. He was taken into custody in Colorado and is going to be sent back to Utah. Again, there's a lot of questions in this story, still unanswered. And that is such a major and shocking part of it as we're working to learn more about him. He's 22 years old and he's from Iowa. He's from a small town, Blakesburg, Iowa. That's more than a thousand miles away from Wayne County, Utah, where these murders took place. Now, today, law enforcement held a news conference in Wayne County, announcing Miller's arrest. He was taken into custody overnight in southern Colorado. Now, before we get into the manhunt, I want to talk about what happened last night in this county. It's about 3 hours south of Salt Lake City. Um on Wednesday evening, March 4th, um a call came in to the Wayne County Sheriff or uh communication center reporting two deceased females near a trail head off of SR12 here in Wayne County. [clears throat] Here's a picture that was posted to KSL TV's Facebook page of law enforcement on scene at the trail head near this national park. Wayne County is known for having these vast mountain ranges and it's why a lot of people live there. It's why a lot of people visit there and it is an incredibly safe place. Typically, you don't see stuff like this happen. Frankly, you don't see stories like this happen anywhere. And again, that's what makes this so shocking. Wayne County deputies say the first call came in around 4:30 yesterday. A woman in her 60s and a woman in her 30s were killed. Deputies believe that they were friends who just went for a hike. their husbands went out searching for them when they didn't come home and their husbands are the ones who reportedly found their wives dead and then they called first responders. Not only did law enforcement have the bodies of these women, there was also a suspicious car on scene. Officers found a vehicle in close proximity to the trail head that appeared suspicious and did not belong to the the two victims. As they investigated this vehicle, they responded to a nearby residence in nearby Lyman. Upon arriving at the residence in Lyman, officers discovered evidence that led them to the body of a third victim, an elderly female, who was the registered owner of the vehicle that was located not near the trail head. >> [snorts] >> Uh investigators also discovered that a vehicle was missing from the trail head that belonged to one of the the victims. Um they immediately suspected that the suspect in the situation had stolen this vehicle and had used it in attempts to flee the area. So this is a picture of the house in nearby Lyman, Utah, population 196. This is another picture that KSL TV put on their Facebook page and deputies say this third victim was a woman in her 80s. She was home alone when she was killed. Deputies believe the killer took her life first, then took her car, drove to this hiking trail, and then killed the two women. The woman in her 80s who died in her home, she lives about 10 to 15 miles away from where these hikers were killed. With one of the hikers cars missing, deputies were able to track the vehicle using license plate readers because they have the make, the model, and the license plate number, and that is how they were able to get on this killer's trail. They say that the killer drove from Utah through northern Arizona and continued to go east, and then he was taken into custody. The Wayne County Sheriff, as all of this was playing out, put out an alert that is chilling if you live in that county. and it was asking people to keep their lights on, lock their doors, and remain home as this search was playing out. Now, details on what was going on at that point, they were still sketchy. It was so sketchy that the local schools just shut down for the next day because the manhunt was underway. You also had a nearby sheriff's office that put the car out there, the description, the make, the model, a 2022 white Subaru Outback with the license plate number, and eventually law enforcement tracked that vehicle down in Pagosa Springs, Colorado. This is a town. It's actually kind of a resort town in southern Colorado. It's at least 7 hours and that's a straight drive from Utah where these murders took place. Um the vehicle was successfully tracked to Pagosa Springs, Colorado where a coordinated effort between multiple law enforcement agencies in that area led them to this vehicle which was left abandoned. um and a as a short brief search of the area led them to the suspect which was he was taken into uh custody without any further incident. Um the suspect has been identified as 22-year-old Ivan Miller of Blakesburg, uh Iowa, who is believed to have had no prior relationships with any of the victims and no prior connections with the area. Now, here is the mug shot once again for Ivan Miller. He is 22 years old and he is from a rural town in Iowa, Blakesburg, Iowa. It has less than 300 people. Why was he in Utah? Deputies say he has no ties to Utah. And even more shocking, he has no ties to his alleged victims. They have no prior relationship. This appears to have been, according to law enforcement, random. So, is there anything to lead you and investigators to believe this was a targeted attack on these specific women? Uh, >> we have nothing to suggest that they were targeted specifically. Um, and again, he had no we have nothing to suggest that they had any prior relationship and he has no connections to this area. >> And do we know Mr. Miller was in Utah? >> I'm still looking into that to see ultimately what his movements were prior to the incident happening uh and what he was doing here in Utah. Law enforcement have not released information as far as cause of death at the time of this recording. They don't know much about a criminal record for Miller at this point. We did find a daily dispatch record for state troopers in Alaska that list an Ivan Miller being charged with operating a vessel without personal flotation devices. That was in July of last year. Now, to this point, deputies in Utah do not believe that this was a targeted attack. They believe that Miller allegedly killed these women, in their words, out of convenience. It was random. Ivan Miller's Colorado jail booking page says that right now he is faced with a charge of carrying a concealed weapon, knife/gun. He is expected to face more charges when he makes his way back to Utah. Deputies did not release the cause of death at the news conference in Wayne County, but here is what law enforcement said. >> Um, well, we'll first start off with just a brief statement. Um, I'm probably just going to talk to you there. Um, we'll start with a brief statement and then we can open up to any questions that you guys have. So, um, on Wednesday evening, March 4th, um, a call came in to the Wayne County Sheriff or uh, communication center reporting two deceased females near a trail head off of SR12 here in Wayne County. Excuse me. Upon arriving at the trail head, law enforcement located two husbands of the deceased females who had initially reported the incident to the dispatch center and confirmed that both females were deceased. Uh, and it appeared that it was apparent homicide. Officers found a vehicle in close proximity to the trail head that appeared suspicious and did not belong to the the two victims. As they investigated this vehicle, they responded to a nearby residence in nearby Lyman. Upon arriving at the residence in Lyman, officers discovered evidence that led them to the body of a third victim, an elderly female, who was the registered owner of the vehicle that was located not near the trail head. >> [snorts] >> Uh, investigators also discovered that a vehicle was missing from the trail head that belonged to one of the the victims. Um, they immediately suspected that the suspect in the situation had stolen this vehicle and had used it in attempts to flee the area. Uh, investigators utilized automated license plate readers and integrated vehicle tracking services to monitor the stolen vehicles movements through southern Utah into northern Arizona and eventually into Colorado. Um, the vehicle was successfully tracked to Pagosa Springs, Colorado, where a coordinated effort between multiple law enforcement agencies in that area led them to this vehicle which was left abandoned. um and as a short brief search of the area led them to the suspect which was he was taken into uh custody without any further incident. Um the suspect has been identified as 22-year-old Ivan Miller of Blakesburg uh Iowa who is believed to have had no prior relationships with any of the victims and no prior connections with the area. The Utah Department of Public Safety will continue to work with the Wayne County Sheriff's Office and other applicable agencies as we process both the uh crime scenes here in Utah and as we work to do a thorough investigation in this incident. Um we'd like to thank all the uh law enforcement agencies that were involved in this. Their help and support was vital um to bring this to a a quick resolution in locating the suspect. We'd like to uh thank the Wayne County Sheriff's Office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Bureau of Land Management, the Pagosa Springs, Colorado Police Department, and the Archeletta Sevir and King County Sheriff's offices. So, we'd like to open up to any questions that you have. >> Yeah. So, when you're So, these husbands, is there something that tipped them off or were they just concerned that their wives hadn't come back? >> Correct. Had not returned home and and so they uh located them and then notified dispatch. Do you know about what the timeline was, what time they went out to go for the hike, and what time husbands find them? >> Um, so the the what time they actually left, I don't have an exact time frame yet. I think they are still confirming any timelines as far as when they left to when they were discovered and and called into dispatch. So, as we get a better timeline of when that was, we'll we'll let you know. >> And can you confirm were those victims were they family members? Were they related? >> So, at this point in time, we don't have any connections as far as family relation between the two. We believe the two were friends that had gone out for a hike and we don't have any connections between the the two hikers and the elderly female victim. >> So, is there anything to lead you and investigators to believe this was a targeted attack on these specific women? >> Uh, we have nothing to suggest that they were targeted specifically. Um, and again, he had no we have nothing to suggest that they had any prior relationship and he has no connections to this area. >> And do we know why Mr. Miller was [clears throat] in Utah? I'm still looking into that to see ultimately what his movements were prior to the incident happening uh and what he was doing here in Utah. >> What was the timeline from when they did he go to the elderly woman's home first and then the hiking trail? Is that what you think happened? >> Uh we believe that the incident happened first at the registered owner's home and then the the at the trail head was second >> and then he took her car and drives over to the trail head. >> Correct. kills them and then takes their car >> and then they're t their vehicle is taken from the trail head >> and the woman is the 80 year old at the home. The two friends are the 30 and 60 year old. >> Uh yes. So the the ages that were given were age ranges. Um so those aren't specific ages. The uh registered owner of the vehicle um was in her 80s and the uh other two was in their 30s and then I believe the other was in their 40s. >> 40s. Do we know where the victims were from or are we releasing any of that information? >> Um, we know that the victims were from the area from here in Utah, but we have not released their information quite yet. >> I'm sure this is scary for this type of community. We saw a lot of stuff on social medias talking about lock your doors, all those types of things. Schools were going to be closed. >> Yeah, any type of incident like this is going to be very, very scary for uh, you know, you have multiple victims, multiple scenes, anything like that. um where where law enforcement is responding to all of these things and and a suspect that is outstanding. Uh people uh tend to to be scared and and we understand that and so that's why law enforcement takes these very serious and we wanted to make sure to bring this to a quick at fast resolution. >> This seems like this spread out to a variet a wide area so much so you guys had to use the license plate scanner. So I mean this is everybody had to come out to this. You're you're usually in Salt Lake, you're down here, >> correct? But it was great coordination between multiple agencies that worked so well together to to locate the suspect. >> And can you confirm that second victim's age range one more time? Cuz I think the original press release said 60s, but did you just say 40s? >> I I and I could be mistaken on that one. I don't have that information in front of me. I believe you're correct. >> But they are not related then. 30 and >> I have nothing to suggest they were related at this point. >> Do we know any weapons, anything used? Do we know the way that they died? Um, [snorts] we have not released anything as far as that goes yet. >> And you say that this suspect, he's from Iowa. Do you know when he got to Utah, like what the connection is there, how he even got here? >> We're still looking at that timeline of when he arrived here in Utah, what his involvement was here in Utah prior to the incident. Um, and we don't have a complete tracking history of that yet. >> Is there a criminal background that you're looking into? >> Um, we don't have much of a background from from prior to this incident. When police arrested Miller, did he have that weapon that was used on him? >> Um, that I don't have many details of the incident that took place in Colorado at this point. Um, we are still working with them uh as they he's still in their custody. Um, and so we will work with them uh from here forward. >> So, will he eventually be brought back here? >> That's what we're working on. >> And the location of the first home to the trail head, how far apart are these locations? I guess >> so. The trail head is off of SR12 near Tory. Um and then the uh the residence was in Lyman, which uh you know is probably 10 to 15 miles apart. >> And can you clarify um how were how did you come to know that these three murders were all connected? Was it the cars that really kind of sealed the deal? uh the the great work by the law enforcement agencies involved as they started to look into these things and notice the these small connections and and following these connections together helped them to start putting those pieces together. Uh specifically the vehicles >> any other connections. >> Um I think the biggest piece was those vehicles that led them to the registered owner and then the the second vehicle tracking their movements through Utah and then eventually into Colorado. So, we've talked about the timeline where you think it starts at the house, goes to the trail head. When do you guys find out? Is it you find out with the husbands and then you realize, hey, this car belongs over here, and you find the other victim. Is that how that happened? >> Correct. Yes, they So, the husbands reported through dispatch uh that the they located the the two uh females at the trail head officers respond to the trail head, talked to talk to them. Uh they they also are the ones that help us to understand that that vehicle is missing from the trail head. They investigate that other vehicle that is suspicious at the trail head, doesn't belong to either of those victims and trace that to the registered owner's home residence in Leman. >> Do you have a I know you said you don't really have a timeline, but do you have any time of like when those calls came in or when they were found deceased? >> Um so the initial call came in at 4:30 yesterday afternoon. Um, and and I believe that is from the two husbands that located them on the trail head. I I believe that is the only call that I'm aware of. >> We know obviously this is a small community. Can you tell us what this looks like for this kind of community moving forward? I mean, three homicides in 24 hours. Um it it it's going to be something that definitely shakes the community for a little while and and we want as law enforcement want to help them get back to normal as much as we possibly can, but it's something that there will definitely take them a little bit to recover from. Um I know that they've taken precautions, especially last night knowing that there was an outstanding suspect. You'd have to speak to them specifically about what they did, but I believe some of the schools are closed, city officers are closed, things like that just to make sure everybody stays safe. Do you know if the suspect is connected to any other cases, any other murder cases in other states in Iowa? >> We are not aware of anything at this point, but again, still early on in the investigation. Still have a lot of the history of that to look into. >> Do you have any details on the route that he took to get from here to Springs? That's quite a quite a distance. >> Um, I don't have the that exact route in front of me of of the the how they followed him using those uh those methods, but uh that's something we can put out at a later time. Did you say where the hikers reside? Where they are from originally? >> They are here from from here from the area, but I don't have their specific information with me now. Okay. >> So, Wayne County is >> uh Wayne County. Uh whether they have ties to other parts of Utah at that. >> And again, I'm going to ask uh was there a time that what was the amount of time elapsed where the husbands became concerned? Was it a matter of hours or >> I I haven't confirmed the the time frame from when they left for the hike to when they were discovered. >> We understand that uh next of kin notifications are happening for family members. Do you have a timeline if you'll be releasing names? >> Um we are working with the families now making sure that they can notify all loved ones in the area and not outside the area before we release any of that information. So, uh, I would anticipate that that shouldn't be too long, but, uh, within the next day or so, we would we would hope, but as we work with them, we will get that information out as quickly as possible. >> And just can you give us a little bit for those that are here in the community, they're kind of seeing the crime scene tape. What can they expect in the next few hours in terms of actually processing these scenes? What is that going to look like? >> Um, yeah, they'll see a lot of activity at both of those scenes. Um the residence specifically is right next to the uh SR24 which goes right through uh town and they'll see a lot of activity at that residence. So please make sure to give them the space they need to work. Be c be cautious too because a lot of times traffic may back up that we don't want any collisions to occur. Uh but they'll try to process those scenes as quickly as possible. We want to make sure that we do everything that we can to document everything and do it as thorough as possible. Now yesterday was it sheriff's office that was processing scene or did you guys start yesterday at nightfall and then are picking back up this morning? What is that? >> So the investigation began yesterday as they began initially we wanted to try to uh uh identify this suspect and and try to locate them as quickly as possible. Um and that really got things uh with that how rapidly that transpired. um they did a great job in following that to ultimately he's in custody now. So officers did a great job but now um with daylight will help us to document those scenes and uh the crime scene technicians there at those scenes. So part of it is waiting till daylight but also uh the suspect identification and capture was was a priority. >> Considering the amount of violence that was visited on this community, how important do you think that quick apprehension was? I mean, we can't know what he might have done allegedly, but >> yeah. Uh, you know, just three homicides within a very short uh time frame and a stolen vehicle. Um, who knows what that could have led to. Um, hate to to even try to imagine what that would have led to. >> And I don't know if it's too early to speak to this, but I mean, we're not talking about a family or men. It's three women um who were alone from what it sounds like. Um any concerns that they were targeted for being women potentially? >> Um nothing that would suggest right now that that's why he targeted them just because uh it was more probably that we can see right now that uh the vehicle use for for these uh him to be able to get get out of the area. >> Are there any other vehicles that you've located that he might have traveled into this area? Um that's we're still investigating to see how he got to Utah and then what his involvement here in Utah, how long that h that has if he was just passing through this area specifically, if he'd been to any other parts of the state. >> Hypothetically, if somebody was to come across an abandoned vehicle in Wayne County, I imagine that's something you'd want to know about. >> Uh if there's something that looks suspicious, um they could report that, but uh um we don't have any uh anything that would suggest any other vehicles at this point. >> Okay. I I've seen the term uh serial killer thrown around uh in this case and at one point there was numbers that you know maybe many more victims or up to eight. Um do you qualify this with three victims as potentially a a serial killer incident? >> Um hard to say what the as far as motive or anything like that. We have not narrowed down any type of motive. It's still early on in the investigation right now. Um as far as it's a very tragic situation. uh whether I we don't believe he's targeted these specific for any specific reason other than just for convenience. >> As far as your memory goes, can you recall something similar to this happening in this area recently? >> Um to my knowledge, and again this is something that you know with the in coordinating with the Wayne County Sheriff's Office, they handle a lot of these investigations in this area. They would have a better knowledge of kind of what that looks like. Uh but not to my knowledge. Do you know if the uh the resident was was she alone? >> Um the one of the residents? >> Yeah, it appears so. Yes. >> So, >> okay, perfect. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. I just got from a neighbor actually just texted me just to clarify for for the folks that actually live here. They're wanting to know, so you don't yet know where the suspect's car is. Miller's car, you know, the one that he or whatever he used to get into town, >> right? We are investigating any uh some evidently some potentials on that to to see. So, um as we get more information on specifically how he got into town and and what his what he was doing here, we will release that. We have a big update in the case involving missing and endangered 15-year-old Alisa Petrov. Overnight, a newly unsealed search warrant shows that police have identified a third man who Petrov allegedly had conversations with online before she vanished more than a month ago. KUTV reports that third man is named Samuel Mitchell. He is a 41-year-old. He's from Harman, Utah, which is just about a half hour from where Petrov lived with her family outside Salt Lake City. Police say Mitchell spoke with the teen on Discord and Snapchat. Now, those are different than the conversations she allegedly had with two other men who are facing charges. Those conversations were allegedly on Instagram. Police say Mitchell last spoke with the teen just 8 days before she disappeared on April 21st. Before we get into the messages that Mitchell allegedly sent the teen and where the teen said she may be heading, we have to get you caught up to speed in how we got to this point. Police say that Petrov never showed up to school on April 21st after her mom dropped her off. Instead, she was next seen on this surveillance video that was released by police in South Jordan, Utah. She's at a convenience store. From the store, police say Petrov was given a ride by a stranger to a train station and then she took the train about 20 minutes south to Provo, Utah. And that's where police say they lost her. She was last seen in baggy jeans, a Harvard University t-shirt, a black hoodie, and she was wearing a dark school backpack. She's 5' 3 in tall. Now, right now, there are two men who are facing sex crimes in connection to the alleged conversations they had with the 15-year-old before she disappeared. That third man who we just talked about, Samuel Mitchell, he hasn't been charged at this point, but KUTV reports that police say that there was evidence of enticement of a minor and exploitation of a minor on Mitchell's phone. Here's a picture of one of the men who was charged. This is a picture of William Taylor Gle. He's 37 years old. He's currently in custody in Texas City, Texas, which is near Galveastston on the Gulf Coast. Police say Alisa made contact with Gle using a stranger's phone from a bus station in Utah. Police say she told Gle that she was safe and for him not to respond. And once police were on to Gle, they found that he had disturbing sexual conversations with this 15-year-old who he knew was underage. According to police, Gle was not the first person who police were investigating for having sexually explicit conversations with Alisa Petro. Originally, they had found on an iPad in the girl's bedroom sexually explicit conversations on Instagram with a man named Matthew Manard. This is the arrest warrant for Manard. He's 35 years old and he lives in Miami, Florida. He is facing six charges, including aggravated sexual exploitation of a minor, enticement of a minor, and criminal solicitation in the disappearance of Petro. A no bail warrant has been issued for him for when he is taken into custody. At the time of this recording, he is still at large. Speaking of, since the last time we talked about this story on law and crime, there's been a very interesting development that you don't often see when it comes to the case of Matthew Manard. Manard, again, not in custody, has hired a lawyer. Here's the document a criminal defense lawyer filed in the fourth judicial court in Utah. Manard is facing serious charges. As we said, Alisa is still missing and he also is not in custody. As far as why Menard is facing those serious charges, he sent sexually explicit messages allegedly to this 15-year-old girl. And we read through many of those messages in court documents. And I'll be honest with you, some of them are so graphic that I can't show them to you here. Here's what I can tell you. Police first started investigating Manard in the days after Alisa vanished. They were going through an iPad at her home and they found a secret Instagram account where she was talking to a man who only identified as Matt from Miami. Now, according to the probable cause affidavit, Manard knew Alisa was 15. And at one point, police say that Manard asked Petrov, quote, "Are you secretly 15?" And Petro replies, "WTF, of course, yepers, I'm actually in middle school." Police say after it was established that Petrov was 15, Menard allegedly said, quote, "But for real though, when we meet, you going to be expletive all night." Court documents show that Menard also allegedly told the girl to send nude pictures to herself with Manard referring to himself as daddy. Police say for several months, Manard allegedly solicited sex, sodomy, and child sex abuse material from this 15-year-old girl. He allegedly went into detail about sexually abusing the teen and the lines police say he sent according to court documents. I will tell you they are sick and they're so disgusting I can't show you. Manard then allegedly not only was having these conversations with the teen, he allegedly created a plan to have Alisa leave her family and leave Utah and meet him in Las Vegas where he said he was traveling for a work trip in late May. Now, he also allegedly talks about having sex with the girl in Las Vegas. He then said they would go to Los Angeles for several days and then she would return to his home city of Miami. Now, police also say that Manard told Alisa about plans to have her avoid detection when they were together, allegedly telling her that they could tell others that the 15-year-old was actually his daughter. Based on what we know at this point, it is unclear if Matthew Manard ever went to Las Vegas. It's unclear if he was ever in person with Alisa Petro. And it's also unclear whether the two other men who police have identified in having conversations with her allegedly on social media and online, whether they ever met Alisa Petrov in person or know where she is right now. As for Mitchell, the third man who police just identified. Police say his username was Samich on Discord. And in the search warrant, Petrov allegedly asks Samich to kidnap her. She allegedly gave him locations of where she was planning to be, including a ski area called Alta, which is southwest of Salt Lake City. Police say the conversations that Petrov allegedly had with this 41-year-old man that they were sexual in nature. and the teen asked the 41-year-old when they were going to meet up. And that's when they say that Mitchell told the teen that he was sick and he couldn't meet up with her. Now, along with Discord, police say the teen and Mitchell communicated on Snapchat. So, it'll be interesting to see between those two apps how much information police can get about the conversations that Petro was having with Mitchell or frankly anyone else. Joining us now once again to talk about this case is missing person's private investigator Steve Fischer. Steve, good to have you on. Um, also just want to start, uh, I know you posted on social media that you've been retained by the family of Alisa Petrov to help in in the search for her. What can you tell us about the role that you're going to be having, um, in in trying to find this girl? >> So, um, I was retained uh, starting yesterday. I am, you know, this this case is covering multiple states. You know, a front started in Utah, but it's there's Florida aspects to it and there's possibly California aspects. So, I'm licensed in multiple states. And so, they brought me on um you know, mostly for the search aspect of of finding a lease, not so much the investigation uh into the what may, you know, be going on otherwise because South Jordan Police Department is doing a fantastic job on covering all this uh information. They certainly don't need my help on that. But as far as getting known and actually boots on the ground, searching for Lisa, that's going to be more my role. >> Well, and we'll talk a little bit more about that. Um, just as we go on, but the the big piece of news that came in, uh, most recent was that this third man is who police say, uh, Alisa was talking to online, Samuel Mitchell, 41 years old. He's from Herman, Utah, which is about 30 minutes away from where she's from. What do you make? And I know police are the ones doing the investigation and the criminal aspect of of this. Um, but how does this complicate the search for Alisa knowing that it's not just the two people, Gleans and Manard, who are who are going to face charges? So originally um we knew a lot about Menard and uh the plans to you know he suggested to meet up in Vegas and and we learned that he was giving her advice about how to remain undetected while traveling. But now you know we have another uh person in the mix and we don't know you know whose advice um uh you know she uh [clears throat] relied on more. Uh it just it's just it's it it complicates it because did did she go to Vegas? Did she head more towards where this guy was at? Which it doesn't appear uh because she did tell him that she was running away not to contact her. But does that mean that they had a plan to um make contact later because we know she did with Menard. The plan was when she got to Vegas, she was to call his cell phone and by getting that cell phone number that he gave is how um you know detectives were able to figure out who he was and start unraveling this. But it complicates it because there's different directions she could go, you know, and and she could be in California as well because she does have uh some, you know, dreams or whatever. You know, she's in dance world and stuff like that. And she actually had some events that were going to be taking place here in California around this time. So, you know, there's a lot of places she could be. >> Yeah. And um as far as I I think of Mitchell as well and what stood out to me was that he according to police was communicating with her on Discord and Snapchat which is different than to my understanding Gleans and Manard that was mostly Instagram and then I think of Discord and that's come up in a lot of really controversial situations and it can I how difficult is it to track someone down? Clearly police were able to on this one, but to get cooperation from Discord, Snapchat, the messages erase. Um, where it's I mean, do we know that it was just three people she was communicating with online? >> I to be honest, I mean, I don't have further information, but I doubt it's just the three. I do believe from information that I've learned, and I don't think it's this is anything secretive. I think most of it originated on Discord and then usernames for Instagram and whatnot were shared through uh Discord. Um there's games that are like on Roblox which you know that platform just comes up over and over and over in these um >> missing juvenile cases. But there's a um certain game or games that she played a lot which are really geared towards um teen and pre-teen females. and these guys are lurking in those Discord channels uh knowing that that's where these young young girls are hanging out. And so I think that's where the initial contacts were made and then um DMs were sent and then like hey let's take it over to Snap or let's take it over to Instagram and from there they're giving out phone numbers and so I think this where these predators are lurking. >> Circling back to where she may be. Um, when you talk about certain events that she may have had out in in California, what do we know about those? >> So, they were um they were there dance events, you know, um, tied to a large household name for amateur. I don't want to really name bring into it but um you know she um was into that that dance like a lot of young teens or and adults for that matter but and she was passionate about it and she was very good at it and she was chosen for some teams. So um you know there were some events coming up in California. She does have uh some history of living in Southern California down closer to Delmare area down by San Diego. Uh she has friends there. Um there was a friend that she was in contact with before she left. They've talked to that um person and they don't know anything. It's somebody around her age and um but she could be you know it's the thing we just don't know. I mean she could California is an option. You know Florida still we never know right because in this case we just don't know. Florida we at the beginning we thought was a real possibility I think because you know I was able to find evidence where Menard was la or weekend before last that she's probably not there but Vegas um definitely I think your intention was to get to Vegas that's what when she got off the train in Provo she was trying to buy a ticket to um to Vegas but then it confuses me because after that didn't work she tried to pay somebody to give her a ride to Salt Lake City which is the opposite direction So, it gets really confusing and complicated to figure out what her intentions were. >> So, she's 15, Steve, and she is at this train station in Provo. That's the last time she was seen. You know, a 15-year-old can be incredibly smart. It's not like we're talking about someone who's under the age of 10 trying to travel. But how would she be able to get from Provo, Utah, to maybe Las Vegas, as far away as California, by herself? So that's one of the things that I think she was trying to overcome. She had tried to she actually does have cash on her. She could have up to um about $1,500 $1,500. So she did have she did have some money to survive a little bit, but she tried to get somebody she tried to give a person cash in exchange to buy her a ticket. And I think that was because she was afraid of having to show ID or whatnot. So, um, and then then you know when that didn't work, she tried to get a ride, pay somebody for a ride to Salt Lake City, which is going the other direction she was trying to go. So, that confuses it. But, as far as getting around Greyhound, they do ask for an ID, but you don't have to have one. And, and so, she could have um, you know, gotten on a Greyhound. Um, she could have unfortunately she's trust she trusts people and you know so that means she could have been actively asking for rides and you know she could have been kind of hopscotched um you know to wherever she ended up which I think most likely is going to be the Vegas area but nothing's for sure >> for you as a as a private investigator. I mean, you go to Las Vegas, let's say. I mean, how are you able to track down where she may be? >> So, this is really going to be more like search and rescue type of operation, like an urban search and rescue. It It's going to be a matter of going and talking to uh the bus stations. It'd be going to outreach centers, youth centers. Um there are a couple um places where she might seek to um you know she she likes that whole entertainment industry. So there's places that you know we can go and see if she's popped up. Um there's possibly somebody um that else in Discord that she was actually talking about that lives in Las Vegas. um can't say too much about that, but there, you know, there's there's there's other people and and that's, you know, something that, you know, hopefully law enforcement will um come up with more information on. But, you know, my role in as far as Vegas goes will be on the ground searching, talking to people, and literally looking out for her in an area that we think she'll most likely be because that was kind of her what she was looking for. as far as the investigation's concerned, because it was kind of a shocking moment when you found out that there was this third person she was communicating with. I mean, from from what we understand, I mean, how how likely is it that police know each person she was talking to? Or if it's across multiple apps, Snapchat for example, the messages disappear. How likely is it that police won't be able to know how many people that she was talking to? >> I think that they'll have a good idea how many people she spoke with. I just don't know if they're going to know the context of all those conversations because with this last guy, what we found out is that they don't have the reason he wasn't charged. I mean, the warrant was executed on him and they're talking about things they absolutely should not have been talking about. However, when they're referencing photos like, oh, you know, that's a great photo, you know, something along that line, the photo is not there because it's been deleted. So, it's kind of a tricky situation where I don't they didn't have enough to charge the person, but they know that they were having inappropriate uh contact. And there's probably I'm guessing several more like that because listen, these it's it's so sad, but these this world of these predators, they they're just like sharks swarming in in those um social media channels. And um unfortunately these young women are impressionable and trusting and don't realize that um these are monsters. >> Yeah. Truly so. And when you read through some of the things that were said, especially after the fact, according to police and these search warrants and the probable cause on Matthew Manard, the things that were said after it was established in these conversations, she was 15. Um it's sick to it's sick to read. Speaking of Matthew Manard, it was surprising to see this is someone who's not in custody. There's no bail warrant out for him. He is facing very serious charges. He's not in custody, but he hired a defense attorney. How often have you seen that? >> Not very often. I mean, literally a couple cases I can think of where that this has happened has been cartel cases um where, you know, they're out of the country. Um, Manard is Listen, I, and I mean this, I truly think South Jordan Police Department is doing an amazing job in this investigation. Um, there's a lot of layers, I think, to it. I am confused about Manard because there is a no bail warrant out for him. Uh, there was contact made with him by Miami Police Department uh, early long before any of us knew about the case. And they took his phone. they uh and um in a warrant. Uh and then I think the you know then when [clears throat] the charges dropped against him and there was the no bail warrant we and Nisa was missing you know there was good reason to believe that they could have been together at that time and Menard was nobody could get a hold of him and he wasn't in custody and it's thought he's on the run and then I um found video evidence which I've shared with you you know off the channel um from weekend before last I think it the 21 May 21st some something around that that weekend um video evidence of Menard partying um you know at nightclub on a yacht um couple other things so and it was from that that weekend so it was really confusing and and it did you know give that information to detectives and they said that they uh and they've said this publicly so I'm not disclosing any information but they said Manard is not on the run, which would mean they know where, you know, he's at. And obviously, he filed his counsel, these lawyers hired filed, you know, an appearance on his behalf. Now, that's only that can only be limited. There's only so much they can do until they actually surrender him. But I don't know why he has not been surrendered yet or hasn't been gone after. I don't I don't know why he there's got to be some twist in the story because I don't know why they're not putting more pressure on him to be surrendered. Um if they know his location and he hasn't surrendered right now, I think they should get him. >> In in the cases where you've seen this, what type of leverage would he have as a suspect uh against police where he hasn't turned himself in? Um though police um I know that that you just said I mean like they they know where he is. So it's kind of this question of like what's going on and what's the hold up when there are all these char like these are serious charges charges he's facing like this isn't some like white collar tax crime where you see people kind of negotiate their release. I mean these are are very serious charges. Um and it appears that there's there's a strong you know from the text messages we saw. I mean the evidence is is pretty strong. So, what type of leverage would he have in this type of situation? >> So, I'm not sure he has any leverage as so much as he has he's nothing really to lose because there's a no bail warrant. Although, he may have had something to lose because he could have had his attorneys go in there and really fight um you know to have a several million dollar bail maybe, you know, to get that change. But I think by stay by, you know, not surrendering himself, he probably has waved that. And maybe they're thinking at this point is listen, um, it's [clears throat] a no bail warrant. So, let's learn, his attorneys might be like, let's learn as much about the case as we can. Let's try and find some small things to chip away at. Let's build our case now with you out of custody or our defense with you out of custody. But, um, I hope they're being more aggressive. I don't know. Maybe it means he he left the country and they know where he's at, but you know, extradition process can be a little tricky. So, they'd rather have himself surrender or maybe there's another twist. You know, we don't know. But I don't know how there can be a twist that would help him because listen, he gave his name. Yeah. Or, you know, he gave his phone number. All comes back to him. Uh it doesn't, you know, I don't think there's any case to be made that his devices were hacked or anything like that. So, um, but it's confusing because South Jordan Police Department, again, they're doing a great job and they're executing these warrants. They are trying to find out all these people. I just don't know why um it seems to be a sole process to get him behind bars. And for you now working um with Alisa's family, um I know I've reached out uh to her dad and and he's he's done some media and and you just can't imagine what this family's going through, but just how are they just to you know, all this information is coming to light. They certainly want their daughter to come home. It's been more than a month since she's gone missing. And just how are they doing? You know, it's just like with virtually every family I deal with. They there's a thoughts are going a million miles an hour and they're trying to one process the fact that she's gone. Um, this is not easy material to read. Even as an investigator, and I know you said as a reporter, I mean, the stuff Manard and and and Gleans um said to this girl, uh, is just it's I mean, it's hard to read, you know, and I see it all the time. Uh, it it's still shocking. And so for them to have to read it as parents and then understand that I'm sure there's some question of like why did she want to leave the house in the first place and then or could she be what you know something happened to her? Uh it's it's you know and they're and they're also now playing investigator which you know every family does. I get it. You know, it's like law enforcement says, you know, hey, just let us do our job. And, you know, as investigators, we do this. We ask them the same. But it's also kind of an impossible thing for a family to do. You know, they want to they want to learn as much as they can because they do know her best. Um, it's it's, you know, it it's it affects them. You know, she's got a brother I talked to yesterday. It's affecting him. And, you know, if she you know, she listen, she is online a lot and so she's monitoring any of this. I just want to uh really stress that she's not in trouble and she's not in trouble with her family and you know um her family loves her very much and just wants to hear from her. >> Yeah. And and you hope she gets that she gets that message and she can go home and um this family this family can be together. There's just a lot of layers to this story since we first started talking about it from um the people that she police say she was talking to online. Just certainly the the overall question is where is Alisa Petrov? And I know um Steve Fischer, missing person's private investigator, you're you're on this case and and hopefully going to be able to bring her in um bring her to safety of her family. Thank you, Steve, for taking the time to be with us. >> Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. >> Petrov's family and you just have to think of what they're going through right now. They have been very vocal in trying to find information about where their daughter may be. Here's a website that they launched with pictures of Alisa. There are flyers with information on where people can go with tips. They're offering $20,000 as a reward. They also have a message for their daughter on the website. And I'm going to read it for you right now. It reads, quote, "Alisa, if you can see this, please know that we love you. We will always love you. We miss you. All of your friends and our friends are very worried, too. We all want you to come back home. You will not get in trouble for running away. We are not mad at you. We absolutely love you regardless of what happened and you are welcome home at any time. So, we have this call that comes in on June 20th at around 12:40 in the afternoon out in American Fork, Utah. That might ring your ears, by the way, because you might remember that location from our Ruby Frankie Jodi Hildebrandt coverage here on Sidebar. But putting that to the side here, a caller is saying he found 57year-old Olan Johnson and his wife, 52-year-old Carolyn Johnson, both shot to death. And the 911 caller is not identified by name or otherwise other than the fact that he references the victims as being his dad and mom. >> I think my dad killed my mom and then he killed himself. making clear that this was the couple's son, one of six children in the Johnson family. And based on the investigation, it appeared that Olan had shot and killed his wife, Carolyn, moments before, fatally shooting himself in the couple's $ 1.34 million home, married apparently 32 years. Now, the son tells the dispatcher that he does see a gun in the home, and he reveals a little bit about the couple's past. Have they have they been violent? Do they have a history of fighting or >> No, but there's been a lot of drama [clears throat] recently in the household just within the past 4 days. >> The son didn't quite expand upon the quote drama that had been happening in the days leading up to this incident, but he did refer back to a possible domestic dispute between the couple in the past. There has there was one instance of like a year or two ago that I think my mom I don't know my dad was chucking stuff around the house. He had a he went to jail for a little bit but nothing like I don't think like contact physically. >> The day after this couple was found, police classified the killing as a murder suicide. And what's also bizarre about this situation is that according to the New York Post, in the days leading up to this tragedy, there's really no other way to describe it. It's a tragedy. Olan had posted a kind of worrisome caption to his now privatized social media page. And it was next to a photo of himself on a motorcycle. He wrote, quote, "No matter how crappy a person I am, motorcycles always love me back. Oh, and skiing. Skiing loves me, too." Now, police haven't revealed a potential motive in the shooting. They're continuing to investigate. According to Olan's LinkedIn profile, he's the owner of Sime Modular, which manufactures modular panels for force on force training for paintball and airsoft. It also lists he previously had experience in the small arms industry doing large projects such as firing ranges at the FBI Academy in Quanico, Virginia. Both he and Carolyn were graduates of Brigham Y Young University where she was an adjunct faculty member in the school of music. And there's a GoFundMe page that has been created by friends of the family. It's raised nearly $9,000. In a joint obituary, it describes Olan as always calm, thoughtful, kind, and professional with a compassion for those in need. And then regarding Caroline says that Caroline filled her life with beauty, faith, optimism, and a quality of life that led others to gravitate to her and that Carolyn's life was marked by her devotion to her family and her passion for music. But it also states, "As we cope with the men's sorrow, mourning the loss of Carolyn, our beautiful mother, daughter, and sister, we also mourn for Olan despite his actions. We are overwhelmed with love and support from the community and express our deepest appreciation and gratitude. If you or someone you love is in crisis, please reach out for help. All right, so joining me right now is Utah criminal defense attorney Sky Lazaro. Uh Sky, thanks so much for coming on. What a case. Um I think it's really plagued by how much we don't know than what we do know. What does an investigation look like this now considering the fact that, you know, you have what appears to be a murder suicide? There's no criminal defendant. What What do the police look for right now? >> You know, I I don't know how much they're going to do on these. This is an extremely these are always tragic situations. Obviously, you you can't charge someone who's deceased, and I don't know exactly how much of an investigation they'll actually do into what happened or why it happened. Um, other than to make sure, you know, any of those kids are are, you know, play safely, uh, if they're minors or have, you know, resources available to them. >> How often do you see cases like this? Um, by the way, parent murder, suicide, 32 years married. Have you seen anything? >> Yeah. >> And what is it? Six kids. Just awful. We see these every so often. I think this happens. Actually look through some, you know, criminal history that's available on in Utah um to see if there was anything prior. There was one incident from a few years ago that had been dismissed. Um you know, I think these are unfortunate. You know, it's it's hard to know what's going through people's minds at at the time that they would do this and and leave their family and, you know, take the other spouse with them. >> Talk to me about that idea that, and we've talked about this so many times here on the show that when someone commits a crime or someone allegedly commits a crime and we look at their history and we say, "Well, how come they weren't locked up? How come some this wasn't prevented? It seemed there were warning signs." When you see something again, an alleged horrific act of act of domestic violence here, a man accused of killing his wife and then turning the gun on himself. Why is it difficult to to play Monday morning Monday morning quarterback with that? >> I think in a lot of these cases there is no history. You know, may maybe there was some contention in the marriage. Maybe there were financial problems. you know, maybe somebody has, you know, sort of a midlife crisis, but, you know, I think we see these just as often where someone had no warning signs as, uh, you know, maybe someone who has a history of domestic violence. Probably actually more often. Uh, there are no, you know, court, you know, things that we can look at or criminal history factors that we can look at that would explain it. I I I think these are uh really inexplainable acts and and how people get to this place is uh kind of beyond most of our comprehension. I think >> it also strikes me that and I've covered this so many times where one of the defenses in a criminal case when we have a trial is the defendant is a law-abiding citizen. They have not committed a crime in their 30 years, 20 years. They have never committed. But it only takes that one time, right? It only takes that one time for somebody to not only break the law, but >> so many times I've seen commit the worst crime of all, murder. >> Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I I've represented I countless people with with no criminal history at all and just you know wrong place, wrong time, bad day, uh you know, the perfect storm of events that that lead to, you know, something along these lines or or something else. And it's [clears throat] it's a hard argument. Um you know, obviously it's factored into sentencing if people don't have a criminal history. Uh, but it certainly doesn't make them immune or excusable for, you know, committing whatever acts that they have. >> What do you make of what is a really harrowing 911 phone call seemingly made by the couple's son? >> Awful. I mean, I listened to that and my heart broke for that poor kid. I cannot imagine what it would be like to walk in uh and find and find that scene. um and listening to it, you know, where the 911, you know, caller operator asked if there was, you know, they were beyond help and whether or not there was a weapon of there and, you know, and then his kind of in in comment passes there's been some drama. I mean, who knows what that is. Maybe she wanted a divorce. Maybe, you know, we we can speculate all day long as to what was going on in their personal lives, but I mean that that call is just heartbreaking to me as an attorney, you know, and as a parent. >> Yeah. No child should ever ever have to see that. Um and and have to call police to report that. Do they do the children in cases like this, do they need legal representation? I it I I don't think that we're going to see any sort of criminal type investigation. I think what we may see is uh something done by the medical examiner's office just to close the case. So I don't foresee representation as it relates to a criminal court. Um, you know, I don't know what these, you know, there may be some estate planning type issues to to close the estate, but >> I I was wondering if they need some sort of liaison between them and police because I'm sure, look, police will still be looking into this somewhat. I mean, the idea of the circumstances surrounding this, where the where the gun came from, did anybody know about this, something like that? So, do do victims in this case, do they need a legal liaison between the family and law enforcement? >> I usually advise people when they call me and ask about it that I think it's always better to have an attorney who can have those conversations. One, there's a lot of emotions and these are really hard conversations to have and and the other thing is is as you know when the police start looking into things, it's they may not stop with just, you know, the questions they're asking. There might be other stuff that comes up. You know, people people have other things going on in their lives and other histories. So, I usually tell people, you know, if the police are calling you for any reason, even as even as just a witness, I think you're always better to have counsel and somebody who knows the system, who can one, help explain it to you and help you navigate through it, but also make sure that they can protect you if there are uh any issues that arise from that investigation. in these kinds of cases, do you ever see litigation coming up as a result of it or any kind of whether it's I don't even know what it would be. Um, in the sense, you know, we're trying We talked before about whether or not something like this was preventable in any way. Um, is it any kind of uh if if anybody's family wants to sue? And again, I don't even know what it would be, but do you see any kind of litigation that comes from these kinds of cases? Uh I've seen some wrongful death litig wrongful death litigation uh in the civil sense come out of these from you know one side of the family you know if if her family is upset you know usually in that context there's there's some sort of divorce proceeding where you know there's an issue as to you know what's going on with assets um as far as preventable and and this came up. There's been a couple cases actually here in Utah um that are that are different than this and the fact that um there was an individual that uh was parrolled um had a long history of violent offenses and then is alleged to have murdered his girlfriend. Uh and so in those cases there's um there's been some talk and nothing's been filed um as far as litigation maybe against the board of pardons and parole or the department of corrections. You know, should this person have gotten parole on on at his last hearing uh given his criminal history um and the fact that he was a violent offender? But the hard part with these, and I think judges wrestle with this in every domestic violence case or anybody with a history of domestic violence, is nobody has a magic ball. There's people who can get in an argument. The police get called. You know, they're never going to be in trouble again. It was just something that got out of hand. And then, you know, there's times when there's a history and then, you know, things escalate to this level. So, I I think, you know, we never know who's who's going to be the one. And I think that's what gives judges pause sometimes or, you know, the Department of Corrections pause when they're talking about should we release someone. >> A dramatic scene in northern Utah when a heavily armed suspect dies during a police shootout. All this after he drove 12 hours, shot and killed his brother, and set his house on fire. They just won't carry >> back. >> The deadly shooting happened on April 27th in North Ogden, Utah. Officials there say 66-year-old Jeffrey Roberts drove from Long Beach, California to the home of his brother, Scott Roberts. Ring doorbell video captures Jeffrey Roberts approaching his brother's front door. At first, the conversation seems relatively normal. >> Hey, what's up? What are you doing? Come to the kitchen. She came by to see mom. She's not here. Where's she at? In Missouri. What is she doing there? Well, she's living with Lorenda's mom who's taking care of her. >> Really? >> Well, how long she been there? Uh about a year. >> But suddenly, Roberts reaches for his pocket. After that, he opens fire. >> Really >> hearing the gunshots, nearby neighbors call 911. >> It was next door and it sounded like gunshots, but I'm not sure about that. But >> the caller reports that an unknown male is in his neighborhood >> and there was a guy that walked out of the house, but I couldn't tell. Like I said, it was pretty loud, but >> male. Was it a male or >> a male in a brown van? >> Do you know if that male lives there or >> No. No. I' I've never seen the van, but it looks like it's a worked van, so I don't know. That's what I'm saying now. I'm questioning myself, but it sounded like gunshot. >> Before police arrive on the scene, Ring video captures Roberts going in and out of the house. He appears to be talking on the phone during this time. At one point, Roberts is caught on video with a weapon in his hand. Investigators later confirmed Roberts was armed with a 9mm handgun, a 12 gauge shotgun, 23 fully loaded handgun magazines, and 150 shotgun shells. >> Roberts can also be heard referencing his bank account >> to uh give it to Julie. Gang is my everything else. What else do I got here? >> Oh, go to my garage to get my [ __ ] out of Minecraft ASAP. Scandal empty my bank account quick as you can. >> During this time, investigators say Roberts used road flares to start his brother's house on fire. As police arrive on the scene, Roberts begins firing. As they returned fire, the incident is caught on Ring video. Three officers opened fire on the scene, but only one activated their body camera in time. This is video of the officers arriving on the scene. >> Jeffrey Roberts was shot and killed as gunfire was exchanged. After that, officers approach, working to secure the scene. >> Stand by. Stand by. I don't see his gun. >> Hey, how many? >> Guns on the floor. Guns on the floor. >> I see hands. >> He's down. Head shot window. >> There's another person. Dead person. >> Meanwhile, first responders noticed the growing flames inside the home. >> There's a fire inside the house. I don't think we can go inside with this smoke. >> Cover me. >> Who's covering? >> Who's covering? >> I got I got you. We got you. >> Security. I >> police later confirmed Roberts shot both his brother Scott Roberts and his sister-in-law Jod Roberts. Scott was killed while Jod is currently recovering at the hospital. >> Female says she was shot. >> Where's [clears throat] she at? >> Go deal with her. >> Right now, the shooting is still under investigation. Once complete, the final report will be sent to the Weber County Attorney's Office. A self-proclaimed sovereign citizen is shot and killed during a traffic stop in Farmington, Utah. >> Pull you out. Step out of the car. >> Camera video shows the moments leading up to the shooting and what followed when 25-year-old Chase Allen was shot at by multiple officers. >> We all shot. >> Yeah, we all shot. >> You? >> Yeah. >> How many shooters? >> Hey, Chief. >> Four of us, I think. It happened on March 1st when Allan was pulled over for issues with his vehicle's registration. >> How's it going? >> Good. How are you? >> Good. I'm officon police. Reason for the stop today is there's no registration on your vehicle. >> I don't need registration and I don't answer questions. >> All righty. >> Early on, Allan begins recording the interactions with officers as he's told why he's pulled over. >> So, here's the deal, man. I'm stopping you because there's no registration on your vehicle and I'm requesting your identification. Okay? You are detained at this time and you are not free to leave. >> Are you going to provide me your identification? >> I don't answer questions. >> Farmington police say the body camera video shows Allen being non-compliant with officers, refusing to identify himself and later refusing to get out of his vehicle. >> But the direction that this encounter goes is 100% in your hands. Sir, Utah code, United States code is a corporate policy in which you have to be contracted in to be required to follow it. >> Unless you provide me a contract with my wet ink signature on it saying that I'm required to follow it. >> Okay. >> Then there do you want to identify yourself to me or do you want to go a different route? >> Okay. Step out of the car for me. >> No. >> Sir, step out of the vehicle right now. I am not required to >> step out of this vehicle right now and we're going to have an issue where >> step out of the car right now. Don't >> step out of the car. We're going to break the window and pull you out. >> Video captures Allan telling officers what he believes his rights are. >> If you want my identification, I will be under duress and you accept and trusteeship over it. Meaning, you won't be responsible for any debts that you're trying to incur here. >> Okay. So, I'm not trying to incur any debts or anything. I'm trying to investigate why your vehicle doesn't have any registration. >> 1692, you are trying to incur debt and legal action for something that's not allowed. >> Okay. >> And under section 245, traveling is a federally protected activity. >> I understand what you're saying. >> I understand what you're saying. And what I'm telling you is that you do not have an option to identify yourself. >> You are lawfully required to identify yourself. So, you can provide you can provide your identification to me and we can have a conversation about the laws that you've broken or you can fail to identify to me and we can go that route too. I'm perfectly okay with either way you want to go. >> Eventually, Allan agrees to show an officer some ID. >> Do not stop. Do not detain. You are not allowed to stop me. >> Let me see your list. >> I didn't see what you just tried to show me. Can you show that to me again? What's this? >> This is a passport. It says do not stand up. Do not detain. If you go on the first page, >> okay, >> it says United States hereby request all who may concern permit citizere here's what I'm telling you. >> United States name. >> Here's what I'm telling you. >> Without delay or hindrance. >> Will you hand that to me so I can read it? >> You want me to look at it through this tiny crack in your window? >> Handing it to you. >> You're not going to hand it to me? If I hand this to you, you accept trusty ship and shy and you are obligated. >> Sure. I'll accept I'll accept trusting ship if you just hand me the document so I can identify who you are because you're required by state law. >> Quickly, the officer finds issue with Allen's passport. >> Thank you so much, Mr. Chase Allen. >> That is not me. That is a piece of plastic paper. >> So, you have a fraudulent passport? >> No. >> Wonderful. That's what I'm hearing. >> Okay. Step out of the car for me. >> No. When he's asked to step out of the car, Allan resists more. As a result, the officer attempts to pull him out of the car. That's when they see a gun inside the car and multiple officers open fire. >> Sir, step out of the vehicle right now. >> I am not required to >> step out of this vehicle right now. >> And we're going to have an issue where >> step out of the car right now. Don't >> step out of the car. We're going to break the window and pull you out. Step out of the car. GUN. Farmington police say five officers opened fire, though right now it's unclear how many shots were fired or whether Allan fired back. >> Shots fired. We got suspect down. Send us more. >> Show us your hands. >> SHOW US YOUR HANDS. DON'T [screaming] MOVE. >> HANDS HERE. I'M GOING TO GO. KEEP HIM ON good gun. >> Investigators say Allan was wearing a gun holster under his coat and that he moved his hands toward it before the shooting. They found the handgun they originally spotted on the floor of his vehicle after the shooting. Allan died as a result of his injuries. >> Upper. >> Is everybody good? >> Yeah. Has anybody didn't make a hit? >> No. Did he shoot? >> I don't have any. >> While Allan never outwardly said he was a sovereign citizen, his mother had previously sued the Farmington Police Department after being pulled over for an expired vehicle registration. Right now, an outside police department is conducting an investigation into the shooting to determine whether the officer's actions were justified. So far, the names of the five officers involved in the shooting have not yet been released. This is a case that we [music] had to provide you an update on when it came in because it just broke our hearts. It broke our hearts when you really think about what these young children reportedly went through. What started with a Utah father, a family hike, a seemingly great adventure, it ended with three children fighting for their lives in a freezing mountains storm. We told you about Micah Smith charged with six firstdegree felonies, three counts each of child torture and aggravated child abuse after allegedly taking his three young children on an extreme 9-mile mountain hike rated as difficult and hazardous for even experienced adults. The alleged details were harrowing. Especially, by the way, his daughter's desperate question on video, asking, "Are we going to freeze to death, daddy?" His four-year-old son found with no pulse. It's a body temperature of 62°. The prosecution called Smith's alleged actions ill-prepared and extremely selfish, arguing that he ignored every warning and plea to turn back. Now, why are we talking about this again? For the first time since that shocking information was released, that's the charging document in the state. Micah Smith has appeared before a judge. And this hearing was a critical first step where the court would decide a fundamental question. Should he wait for trial in jail or could he be released? Right? Question of bail bond. Now, we have the footage from inside that courtroom where the arguments were made. And we're going to get to that because the prosecutor was asked directly about the possibility of letting Smith out. Here's a sampling of what he said. >> Mr. Ross, what is the state's position on a request for a pre-trial supervised release? That's a hard no, your honor. >> And we were there for the judge's decision, and we are going to take you inside that crucial first hearing. But first, we got to rewind, get everyone up to speed on exactly how this case unfolded, from the first steps on the trail to the shocking charges. Story starts in Utah in the fall. On Friday, October 11th, 31-year-old father Micah Smith decided to take his three young children, his eight-year-old daughter, four-year-old son, two-year-old son, all on a hike. In and of itself, maybe not unusual. The problem was the hike that he chose was he apparently picked the Broads Fork Trail in Big Cottonwood Canyon. This is a challenging, steep hike with rugged terrain. It's not recommended for beginners or children. They left around 9:00 a.m. Smith later admitted that he didn't check the weather. He was unfamiliar with the trail. Apparently bought snacks and socks and shoes, not survival gear. And as they climbed, the kids struggled. His daughter later told police that she was tired and scared. According to her, when clouds rolled in, and she suggested turning back, her father shook his head and told her, "No, that's an allegation." The storm comes in, snow, hail, rain. Smith was texting his wife, the children's mother, telling her of the conditions, to which she responded that he needed to bring the kids home. Instead, apparently they pressed on. Trapped near the summit in freezing conditions, Smith later said that they tried to shelter under a rock and he described just a horrific night. His 2-year-old fell, hit his head, stopped breathing. His four-year-old became quote very, very cold. Had difficulty breathing, too. Smith claimed that he had to perform CPR on both children repeatedly. And then came one of the most chilling allegations that Smith reportedly taught his 8-year-old daughter how to do CPR and then quote gave her instructions to do CPR on her brother while he was gone. Yeah. That he allegedly left. allegedly left his three children, suffering, freezing children, alone on the mountain and went down the trail by himself. Next morning, October 12th, they were reported missing. Search and rescue found Smith on the trail. They noted he behaved oddly. We'll talk about that. Helicopter crew found the children. The four-year-old was mostly exposed, unconscious, appeared lifeless with no pulse. The 2-year-old was underneath him. It's a terrible situation. Thankfully, they all survived. The four-year-old's condition was dire though. In route to the hospital, he was pulseless, requiring 25 minutes of CPR. His body temperature was 62.6° Fahrenheit, suffered a stroke, required a portion of his skull removed, was placed on life support. Now, to be clear, this turned out to be, according to authorities, not just a case of bad parenting or bad judgment. They allege that this was a crime, that this turned into a criminal investigation. And the and the evidence investigators gathered was damning. For example, on Smith's phone, they apparently found a video. And in it, you can seemingly hear his daughter's voice, seemingly filled with fear, asking, "Are we going to freeze to death, Daddy?" Smith's apparent response, "We're almost to the top." November 26th, Salt Lake County District Attorney Sam Gil announced the charges. Six firstdegree felonies. Three counts of child torture, three counts of aggravated child abuse. As you are aware, our office uh filed a charge of multiple charges against one Mika Smith uh multiple counts of child tor to torture as well as multiple counts of aggravated child abuse. The search and rescue teams were uh contacted and it pertained to the defendant with three children uh the ages of 2, four and 8 years of age. They encount encountered children in different uh stages of harm uh including two of the younger children uh uh who had fallen down and taken some head trauma including one who had stopped breathing. This is not an easy hike. This is a one that even as uh trained professionals they suffered injury trying to uh respond to it. The other part that was really critical to us was not only that the children were afraid afraid, but as was uh indicated by the older child that she had to try to uh do CPR to try to save her brother and to also to continue to go through that experience where she communicated fear and concern and they were told to march on. This is about the emotional and psychological harm that can be caused. Now, an arrest warrant was issued with no bail. The prosecution's motion called Smith illprepared, extremely selfish, alleging he chose to summit a mountain over the safety of the kids. They also pointed to prior alarming behavior, including a mental health incident with weapons a month before, and that Smith was later trespassed from the hospital for allegedly tampering with his son's equipment. Bizarre accusation to say the least. We'll get to that, too. But that brings us to the new development. Okay. So, for the first time since that day on the mountain, Micah Smith faced a judge. And this initial hearing had one job. Decide if he would be released or stay in jail. Now, we were inside that courtroom for the virtual hearing. Take a listen. >> Hey, your honor, I was wondering if you might consider a pre-release. >> Uh, let's see. Mr. Ross, what is the state's position on a request for a pre-trial supervised release? >> That's a hard no, your honor. uh I haven't had an opportunity to uh bring the victim to weigh in on this and I direct the court to the declaration of probable cause. There's a significant safety risk and a no bail warrant is absolutely appropriate. >> Okay, Mr. Smith, I did have a chance to read through the charging document um before the hearing today. I read it when it was first filed and then I reminded myself of its contents this morning. There is substantial evidence to support the charge in this the charges in this case, Mr. Smith. And I do find by a clear and convincing standard that you would be a danger to the alleged victims if you were released today. Now, that's not a permanent decision, Mr. Smith. It's a temporary one, and it can be reviewed as soon as your next hearing in front of Judge Ruby Mills. But, sir, you will remain in custody until that detention hearing and until Judge Ruby Mills decides to release you. Your court date with her for that detention hearing will be >> December 8th, >> December 8th at 9:00 am. So that's next Monday, Mr. Smith. That gives you a limited window of time in which to talk to your attorney. So my strong suggestion for you is that you reach out to them uh starting tomorrow afternoon. Get a hold of the lawyer who's been assigned to your case so they can go through the facts of the case with you and answer your questions. >> Okay. >> Mr. Smith, do you have any uh questions about anything we've talked about here today? But before you do that, I will caution you. Do not tell me anything about the facts of the case. What did or did not happen on the day in question? >> Yes, your honor. Is there anything that I can do to help show that I'm not a danger or threat? >> Okay. Well, Mr. Smith, that's an excellent discussion for you to have with your lawyer. Um, at at this stage of the proceedings, there's not anything uh further for us to decide. I've made my decisions in the case today, but like I said, you will have the chance to review those decisions in front of Judge Ruby Mills and your lawyer can help you do that. So, keep in contact with them. Make sure you follow their advice and give them all the information they need. >> Okay. >> Okay. Then, in that case, Mr. Smith, you're good to step back. I wish you good luck. >> Thank you, your honor. >> You're welcome, sir. So, what evidence was that compelling that it led a judge to immediately deem this father a danger to his own children and that he couldn't be let out right now? What had investigators uncovered after the rescue that resulted in those felony charges? Let's go back and follow the investigation as it's laid out in court documents step by step. Okay, we have obtained the declaration of probable cause in this case, the detective sworn statement of the facts. It builds the timeline of that day primarily from two sources. is the account of the 8-year-old daughter identified as EAS and the statements of the defendant Micah Smith himself. It's their words that form the core of this narrative. We're going to start with the foundation. So the document establishes that on October 11th, Smith took his three young children, ES 2 years old, EZ four years old, and EAS 8 years old on the Broads Fork Trail. a hike investigators later noted was quote nearly 9 miles rated hard and not recommended for beginner hikers or children. Now, let's hear from the primary child witness, the 8-year-old daughter, EAS. Her interview provides the emotional core of the state's timeline. And by the way, while you can always question any witness's credibility and recollection of events, the thing to think about here, the apparent injuries, the state of these children, the condition of these children, the video I mentioned before, doesn't it necessarily corroborate what she's about to say. According to the declaration, quote, EAS reported that on the day of the hike, they got snacks. She said Smith told her it was going to be a 9-mile hike and a 9-hour hike, but wasn't sure which. EAS said near the top the clouds started to come in and she suggested to Smith that they should go, but he shook his head no and said this is a once in a-lifetime thing. The document continues with her account. EAS said she again expressed to Smith that they should really go and said that she was getting scared. EAS said Smith told her, "You shall not pass." And then the storm came in really quickly and described that it was snowing, hailing, and raining. She said she was worried about not living, but Smith told her that they were okay. Now, this establishes the first critical element, right? Expressed fear, a direct plea, a turn back, which was refused. And why that is important if these allegations are true, the aggravated child abuse charges require that Smith intentionally or knowingly inflicted serious physical injury on his kids. The same thing with child torture. Intentionally or knowingly. So, we're going to get to that a little bit, but the declaration then details the horrific night from her perspective. She described it as a quote really hard night, that she was freezing cold. She said her teeth were chattering, her clothes were wet, and crucially, she states, quote, EAS stated that one of her brothers had hypothermia and she ran to her brother with hypothermia and hugged him tight to try and make him a little warmer and she had to breathe into his mouth and push on his chest. And then there's this devastating line. EAS said Smith taught her CPR and how to push on EZS's chest. Can you imagine that? So from the child's perspective, we have allegations of fear dismiss, survival conditions, being instructed to perform medical intervention on her sibling. And then you layer in Micah Smith's own reported account to police, okay, which is documented across multiple pages. His version confirms the lack of preparation and the severity of the crisis, but also contains seemingly shocking admissions. First, unplanning. He allegedly admitted, quote, he did not check the trail reports or the weather prior to heading out for the hike. He called the hike spontaneous and not well planned. He described breaching near the summit around 6 p.m. as the weather turned. He said they tried to descend but only made it quote 600 ft down before seeking shelter around 8:00 p.m. He claimed he built a makeshift shelter, removed the children's wet clothes and tried to keep them warm. Then his account of the medical emergencies begins. He said his 2-year-old es fell and hit his head quote appeared dazed and later in the shelter became quote unconscious and stopped breathing. Smith said he performed CPR. He then described his four-year-old Easys becoming very, very cold, was not warming up, had difficulty breathing. His description is graphic. Quote, "Smith said he could hear EZS's heartbeat and performed CPR doing chest compressions and rescue breaths." Smith said that EZ had fluid in his lungs and it was coming out of his nose and foam was coming out of his mouth. Smith estimated that he did CPR on EZS for quote a large portion of the night about every 5 minutes. And this brings us to the single most critical admission or alleged admission from Smith's own mouth. A quote that forms the centerpiece of the alleged abandonment. The declaration states, quote, Smith reported he also taught EAS how to do CPR and gave her instructions to do CPR on EZS while he was gone. And Smith said that he then left the three children and went down the mountain. So, to be clear on the scene, okay, to be clear on this, he allegedly left a 2-year-old who had been unconscious, a four-year-old in respiratory distress, foaming at the mouth, uh 8-year-old girl he just apparently instructed to continue chest compressions, and he walks away. Now, the declaration then shifts to the objective evidence from the rescuers and medical professionals, which corroborates the severity or seemingly does. When search and rescue first found Smith on the trail, they quote noted that Smith was behaving oddly and did not appear to be concerned about the children. Then this apparent jarring statement, quote, Smith also told S members that one of his children was dead. Now, when the helicopter team located the children, here's what they saw as quoted. They noted that the children were not wearing much clothing, stating that ES was under EZS and EZS was mostly exposed, unconscious, and appeared lifeless. Deputy Franchow attempted to find a pulse on EZS and detected no pulse and the medical records are awful for EZS in route pulseless CPR for approximately 25 minutes intubated. Upon arrival, core body temperature was 17° C, 62° F. Later, quote, suffered a stroke which required a portion of his skull to be removed and an external ventricular drain to be placed. Now, finally, the declaration introduces the digital evidence. This is big because it seemingly seals the timeline and allegedly confirms the daughter's account of the fear that she expressed. So, from a search of Smith's phone, a video from the hike apparently shows EAS asking, "Are we going to freeze to death, Daddy?" And Smith apparently responding, "We're almost to the top." By the way, digital evidence, the text messages with his wife, SS. So, this apparently provides a realtime log of her escalating warnings. Things like, "You better leave. It's going to get dark. Child endangerment, not cool. Get them home. Please." That according to the evidence and according to authorities went unheated. I mean, by the way, he even allegedly texted this quote, "Yes, ES is exhausted. We're almost to the very top, but everyone is starting to fail and it's starting to rain. I'm getting tired of carrying ES. It's tough with three children and no second parent. Now, I want to move from the case to the information, the charging document here where the state translates those harrowing facts into specific severe criminal charges. Okay. The document charges Micah Smith with six felonies here. Okay. They are paired one count of child torture and one count of aggravated child abuse for each of his three children. So, let's break down what those charges legally mean. first count one child torture regarding the 8-year-old daughter EAS. The charging language here is critical because it alleges that on or about October 11th through the 12th, Smith, quote, did intentionally or knowingly inflict upon a child a serious injury that was inflicted in an exceptionally cruel or exceptionally depraved manner that caused the child to experience extreme physical or psychological pain or anguish. Or there's a second option. B, a serious injury or more than one serious injury as part of a course of conduct or over a prolonged period of time. Let's isolate this, okay? Intentionally or knowingly. This goes beyond negligence. Okay? This is deliberate. That's what they're saying. Deliberately knowing what you're doing here. Exceptionally cruel or exceptionally depraved manner. That speaks to the method. Now, the prosecution will most likely argue that forcing a terrified child to continue a hike into a dangerous storm, dismissing her please, making her witness and participate in her siblings medical crisis meets that legal standard. Extreme psychological pain or anguish. This directly ties to her stated fear, all the trauma of that night. Course of conduct over a prolonged period. So, this could frame the entire ordeal, not a single moment. Although I'm sure defense attorneys could say, you know, it's not a prolonged period over days or weeks. That's what the statute meant. There's some argument there. I don't know if that's going to be winning. Count two for EAS, aggravated child abuse, alleges that Smith, quote, intentionally or knowingly inflicts upon a child serious physical injury. Now, this count likely covers allegedly deliberately putting his daughter into this environment where she would suffer hypothermia, exhaustion, the condition she endured. And if you look at counts three and four for the four-year-old son, EZ, the language is identical. Count three, child torture. Count four, aggravated child abuse. The serious injury, though, it's not just psychological. It's the physical reality of a body temperature of 62 degrees, the stroke, the skull removal, the prolonged period of time, arguably includes the hours of alleged CPR, suffering in the shelter, counts five and six for the 2-year-old, es mirror this again, child torture, aggravated child abuse. But this all brings us to the critical moment that triggered our update, the motion for pre-trial detention. This is the prosecution's argument for why Micah Smith should be held without bail. And this motion is the direct link between the paper case and the hard no that we heard in the courtroom. So the motion opens with a powerful summarizing hook that sets the tone. Quote, "What seemed like an innocent hike with his three children quickly turned into a nightmare when the defendant chose to summit a mountain over the safety of the kids. It then distills the core failures from the probable cause statement. Quote, "The defendant refused to turn around when their mom told them to turn around and get the children home." He also refused to turn around when EAS said to him that she was scared and that they should go. The defendant, who was supposed to be the protector of his children, was illprepared and extremely selfish. But then the motion goes further. So to demonstrate that this wasn't an isolated lapse in judgment, but part of a clearly spiraling pattern, prosecutors introduced two explosive pieces of contextual evidence that is not directly part of the hike, but important here. First, they reveal a prior incident. Quote, "Approximately one month before this incident, the defendant expressed ideiations and was located by the Cottonwood Heights Police Department with multiple firearms attempting to locate a mountain. He reported to the officer that he was going through a really hard time and was going to hike up to the top of the mountain. He had apparently two firearms and axe in his vehicle at the time. Now, the second thing they allege is disturbing conduct after the rescue while his four-year-old son was fighting for his life in the hospital. Quote, "On November 10th, 2025, the defendant was trespassed from Primary Children's Hospital for interfering with EZS's care and tampering with the equipment." Wild development, wild accusation. Now, the motion weaves this all together into its central argument for no bail. The defendant's behavior is clearly spiraling, and he's not only a danger to himself, but he is a danger to these victims. The defendant's intentional and selfish act left his children in grave danger with one of them dying and being revived multiple times and will never fully recover. So, this was the full package presented to the court. the horrific events of the hike charged as intentional torture abuse framed by prior mental health and weapons concerns and followed by alleged interference with life-saving care. And that is what brings us back to the story today. The motion for pre-trial detention, the request for a no bail warrant led directly to the hearing that we covered at the top of this. The judge had this entire narrative, the facts, the charges, the alarming pattern on the bench when Micah Smith asked for release. So Micah Smith now remains in the Salt Lake County Jail. He's held without bond. He's scheduled to be back in court on Monday, December 8th. And we will, of course, be following every development. We have another tragic story for you of a child allegedly turning a gun towards their own mother and father. This time, it happened in Washington, Utah, in the southernmost part of the state. So, a young man called 911 on Tuesday around 7 p.m. to report that he heard gunshots upstairs inside his home and had to run to a neighbor's for help. And when responding officers got there, they found the man's parents, Joseph and Gail Bailey, dead inside. So the hunt for the shooter, it actually ended up lasting all night. Law enforcement encouraged people who live nearby to shelter in place. Authorities, they were able to identify the suspect as 28-year-old Colin Bailey. Now Colin Bailey is actually in the process of transitioning to a female and now goes by Mia. She had legally changed her assigned gender to female and her legal name to Mia Bailey. So, we're going to be referring to her as Mia Bailey moving forward. So, Bailey was also known to wear wigs that gave her long hair and police wanted people to know that the suspect could look very different from one moment to the next. Now, Bailey's bright yellow Kia soul was spotted on a neighbor's camera leaving the scene. And as police searched for Bailey in the area of nearby St. George, people in several neighborhoods were told to stay inside and be on alert. And then just before 1:00 am on Wednesday, police got a report that Bailey was seen in St. George. So law enforcement yelled at her. They found her. They yelled at her to stop, but instead she reportedly pulled a gun out of her waistband, pointed it at her own head, and walked away. So by the time the sun rose, police had gotten a new report that Bailey may have been in some bushes in an open field. So police, they ended up surrounding her, and she finally surrendered. She was taken into custody. Her handgun was retrieved. She now faces 11 felony charges, including aggravated murder and felony discharge of a firearm. She's being held without bail. Now, as I talk about this and I talk about Utah and this area might seem very familiar to you, and that is why I'm going to bring in a very familiar face, somebody from that area, Brian Schne, reporter for KUTV2 News out in Utah, who's been covering the shooting and the search for the suspect. Brian and I covered the Ruby Frankie Jody Hildebrand story extensively here on Sidebar. Always love talking to Brian. So happy to see you again. Wish it was under better circumstances. Uh but my gosh, Brian, this is uh this is quite the development. >> Well, it is, Jesse. Great to talk to you, too. I know we spent a lot of time talking about Ruby Frankie and Jod Hildebrand and where all of this went down was maybe 25, 30 minutes from Jod Hildebrand's property back in Ivans, Utah. So unique things happened in southern Utah and this was just a heinous crime and I know there's a lot of focus on the Colin Mia aspect on social media. That's what a lot of folks are talking about. But the crime itself is just tragic. It is beyond words. When you read a six-page probable cause affidavit from officers, rarely do we get that much detail from an initial preliminary report from officers. It sounds like by looking at this documentation that Mia was very forthcoming with a lot of information early on after you mentioned evading law enforcement for more than 12 hours and outlined in this probable cause affidavit apparently bragged about it after the fact. >> That's we're going to get into that affidavit. Uh before we even get into what has been the community's reaction. Have you ever covered a case like this, let alone a manhunt like this before? Well, unfortunately, this is a family matter, right? This is a domestic of some sort related situation because there was really no true even though there's somebody running around with a gun, right? And the and the intentions are unknown. This was all family- based, right? This was al the motive was directly towards Mia's parents and also Mia's brother, who by the way filed back last year after Mia, known as Colin at that time, filed for the name and gender change back in July. the brother of Mia or Colin at that time. 5 days after they actually applied for that name gender change, the brother in court filed a protective order against Colin and now known as Mia. Interesting when you look back at that because that got thrown out, that was dismissed. The protective order wasn't um anything that came to fruition. However, the name and gender change did. that came to fruition with a signed application about a month later. Interestingly enough, the brother was in the home Tuesday night when Mia came to the home with the gun and shot both of her parents and then also tried to shoot through a door towards that brother. So, we don't know a lot of things about the exact reason why this took place, but it's obviously that there's family tension there given the fact that she had the moment uh after shooting her parents and the wherewithal to go after her brother who was in that room behind a locked door with his wife trying to escape. A >> and again, is the community shocked by this? Were they familiar with the family? What's the feeling like there right now? >> Yes. To get back to your initial question, we've had a reporter there for the last couple of days uh by the name of Christine McPeek and she has talked to a number of neighbors in the area. I remember airing some part of that conversation last night on one of our shows that would be Thursday night and the neighbor said, "I was outside throwing the softball with my daughter and had I known at that time when this was going on, I we probably would have made better decisions and gone inside knowing that a killer was right across the street." I mean, how could you not be shocked? It's the typical situation of this is a nice quaint, quiet neighborhood where people are just doing their own thing. You know, all walks of life live in that area and then something like this happens because you know, Jesse, crime needs no boundary. It has no boundary. It can happen anywhere and this is one of those situations. It happened anywhere in Washington City, Utah, which is just a fringe suburb city of St. George in southern Utah. So, let's get into this probable cause uh statement that was submitted in court because it is very shocking. So, according to the statement from the Washington City police officer, the front of the house was part of the way open when first responders got there and because there had been reports that people could be hurt inside, the officers went ahead and they made entry. Now, Brian, talk to us about what officers found inside the home. Um because it was a very, very startling site. Well, it was I listened back to the initial conversations that happened about 7:00 Tuesday night and at 7:03 the dispatcher calls out, "Hey, we got a call about gunshots." Uh, the caller, the reporting party saying, "Hey, the the parents upstairs, you have to imagine the reporting party was likely the brother saying the parents are are likely shot." And then within 6 minutes, officers work their way through getting into the home from a time stamp of 7:03 p.m. to about 7:08 7:09, the officers quickly locate two people down and shot. What's interesting about the probable cause affidavit and what we learn about what officers at least learned from Mia and how they gathered this situation, Mia went into the home, shot her mother first, u a number of gunshots towards her mother. She was down apparently making noises. So then Mia went back over according to officers in the written report and then shot one more bullet into her mother's head. And then at that point also her father comes over who she shoots at point blank range and then shoots again to ensure that person is also deceased. I'm paraphrasing the probable cause affidavit. There's a reason why I didn't put a lot of it out on social media. >> It's graphic. Like I I mean we talk about crime a lot. Jesse, I know you do it as well. Some things just sit a little differently, and this one definitely does because of the caliber of the family dynamic. Somebody enters the home, guns down their parents, tries to gun down the other family member. There was clear motive to do something like this, trying to just figure out what that true intent was. Maybe it was from an argument, maybe it was part of that, you know, you'd have to imagine maybe it was a transgender transition conversation, something like that, because that is a big piece to this, at least in the public eye when they look at this case from the outside lens. >> We'll get into that a little bit. You know, they find these 9mm shell casings. So, clearly, it's quite the crime scene. I I was startled by the fact you have one of the victims. You have the the mother in the front room of the home where the TV was on. Um, and then you know there was blood that could be seen in and around there. And then the father was in the master bedroom um lying in the hallway. That hallway leads to the laundry room. Um, and in these different locations when I hear that when I hear these kinds of cases, Brian, it always feels so systematic. It always feels like um, you know, an assassination in a way when you have people in different parts of the house that are ultimately uh, gunned down. That that really left a chill for me. Um, and we know that police, they cleared the rest of the home. Uh, no other people were inside. They didn't see any weapons uh during their search. Um, and then the affidavit, it lays out the specific charges that Bailey now faces. But before we even get into that, that aspect of it where you have people in different parts of the house is what made it, I think, even more chilling. >> You're right. And you called it an assassination. That's basically what I mean I guess you would look at it as because it's clear intent to enter the home which is why there's a burglary charge and know we'll talk more about that too, right? >> Y >> unlawful entry to that home uh immediately go to mom as you mentioned sitting in front of the TV right there and just your casual sitting area but then to make that commitment to leave that area to look for other people. So it is chilling. I mean it's a good way to put it. And like we mentioned, this is very detailed about the specifics of where people are laid out. Almost gives you a footprint idea of the home as we've seen imagery of what the outside of the property looks like. It's just in a beautiful neighborhood with, you know, houses side by side, a little yard in each. It really paints a picture of unfortunately how this all went down in a matter of I would imagine just in a matter of maybe a minute or two, right? Just so quick. Forgive me for for getting into it, but it does match up to the legal charges and and I have to get into a little bit of detail with this because it is important to understand what what she's charged with. Um, so the first two counts are aggravated murder by way of domestic violence. And it says, and as you said, Brian, Mia admitted that she entered the house and almost immediately began shooting at her mother. Uh, GB is identified as GB. Mia described uh firing multiple shots at her mother. Multiple spent casings were located inside the home. uh GB where JB's body was located. Mia stated that her father JB heard the shots, began walking towards her. Mia stated that she shot her father in the head, that he immediately dropped to the ground. And then after going downstairs for a time, Mia came back upstairs, described that she returned to her father who was lying on the ground and shot him one more time in the head to make sure that he was dead. And while doing that, Mia heard her mother making noises, walked back over to her, shot her in the head to make sure she was dead. Mia further stated that she didn't have any remorse for her actions, that she would not change what she had done. Mia stated, "I would do it again. I hate them." So, Brian, that is really, really cold, very sadistic. Um, and you walked us through what we don't know for sure what the motive could be, but why do people online suspect it might have something? And you talked about a little bit before with the protective order. Why do we think it could potentially be about this gender change? >> It could be, and it's it's really purely just speculation, I think, at this point, but it's one of those things that Mia seems to be someone who is very forthcoming with her information. So, I'm sure that we will learn maybe that motive maybe quicker than we do when somebody is not talking, right? Maybe there's a reason where we we do get that understanding. Oh, I had an argument with I'm just throwing out an idea. I had an argument with so- and so or long-standing beef with so- and so. It's clear there's family dynamics here that were at play. A protective order of, you know, a sibling against another. >> There's an I I don't and we don't know the specifics of the reasoning behind it. All of those documents were private and protected as you'd expect them to be by the court. But it's kind of unique when you look at it. That was a year ago. Uh Mia has been in this transition from Colin Troy Bailey to Mia Troy Bailey from name and gender change. Um, what's interesting about Mia's situation, I did hear in the initial police dialogue via radio traffic that Mia had recently on June 5th called 911 to report that somebody had pulled a gun on her >> at work. Um, it's not something where there's a court record of. It was merely just a 8-second clip of something that happened within weeks ago. I don't know if that leads to the family in any way, but I did pull that out when combing through, you know, a couple hours of scanner chatter of of actual conversation of officers work in this case. And we don't put those out at KUTV until we are able to match those up per this probable cause affidavit or per some fact. But I would imagine when you look at the family dynamic here, um, and perhaps the transition, perhaps the, you know, the conversation of my son, 27 years old, wants to transition at the age of 28 to a female. You can make a number of suggestions about how that may have played into the family dynamic. And of course, Jesse, there's the chance that it did. Um, it's just hard to tell at this point. I think we'll learn rather quickly though because like I said, I mean, this is a this is a detailed probable cause affidavit because Mia had to tell officers these things too. Officers can't just put all of this together like that >> in a matter of 12 hours. This had to have come from an interview cooperation because there's also direct quotes in there. >> And there's only so much the forensics can tell you about the order of the shots and what happened there. The reason I asked about what the speculation could be is because I know that neighbors have spoken out to local media about what they observed of the family and tensions with the family. Um, have you heard anything about that from neighbors? >> Yeah, and that's the same thing some of the neighbors have described to um, you know, our reporter that was there for the last couple of days after this really unfolded and you know at the same time it it is just an observation from somebody that lived maybe across the street. to be honest with you, as you know, that can happen in any neighborhood, in any home, uh, behind any closed door. So, I hate to infer too much, but it sounds like that could have that could have definitely played into this, especially with such a, um, >> I think a lot of things online are overshadowed by the conversation of the Colin Mia gender conversation and transgender situation here. >> The crime itself is disgusting and heinous and it's about as bad as it gets. And the charges, as you know, uh, with your expertise, 10 first-degree felonies that were laid out right away and then a third degree tacked on in there for other things. That is a significant charge in any daily life of preliminary charges thrown at some that is the book being thrown at before they even get to court. Right? Those are the early suggestions of this could be life, this could be more, right? This is a a major crime and it's a shame that so many people are looking into this one avenue about the individual rather than the true way that this will impact the community and family and friends because this is a really really disgusting act that we know way too much about rather quickly. >> And I'm glad I'm glad you mentioned that because yeah, you know, focusing on the motive, it's it's important from a legal point of view. You don't even have to prove motive to prove any of these uh charges at trial. It definitely helps tell the story, but at the same time, it's so vital to understand what happened. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. What matters is two lives were lost and there could have been a further loss of life, which gets me into more of the charges because we have another count, count account count three, attempted aggravated murder, again in connection with domestic violence for, as you said, allegedly trying to uh kill her adult brother. The affidavit reads, "After shooting both GB and JB on the main floor of the residence, Mia went downstairs to the basement of the home. While downstairs, Mia sought out her brother CB, who had locked himself in his bedroom after hearing an argument and gunshots upstairs. Upon discovering the locked door, Mia fired one round through the door in the direction of her brother. The brother's door was observed to have a hole consistent with a small caliber round. Further, a suspect a suspected bullet hole was observed in the wall inside of the brother's room. Now, Mia stated that her brother was not her main target, but she would not have been sad had the gunshot killed him. Mia indicated that she knew her brother and his wife were in that bedroom, but they were not the main target. CB and his wife AB both described hearing banging on the bedroom door and then a gunshot as they were trying to flee the residence from a downstairs window, which is just absolutely terrifying to think about. Count four, aggravated burglary, which we were talking about before, because she's accused of entering the home without permission. Mia entered a residence that was not her own through the front door. Mia admits that she had falling out with both of her parents and her brother, who resided in that home. Mia did not have permission to enter the residence. She admitted to entering through an unlocked front door. Mia's brother, CB, and his wife, AB, told officers that they heard the deceased victims yell at Mia to get out of their home. And this part's chilling, too. Um, Mia told officers that she went to the residence with the intent to kill her parents, which is a very specific legal term. So, Brian, the idea that she wasn't even supposed to be there is extra uh, you know, it's an extra piece of information that's important here, supports the burglary charge, but it's also incredibly chilling. >> It is. And the admission from Mia with, you mentioned the word intent, right? Um, I think that doesn't help Mia Bailey in a court of law by any means. I would imagine there's probably the situation here where you can quickly gather an understanding that Mia had the full intention of carrying out this crime. Likely had planned it. Likely had said, "Hey, you know, this date and time, I'm going to go do this." because it was obviously knowing when everyone was going to be home certain t you know 7:00 at night perhaps after work right a certain you know situation has to play out where you know that everybody that you want to be there has to be there at that time >> and you're right though when you talk about the brother and the third charge there was some early questioning about that before this probable cause affidavit comes out because the charges came down earlier when the booking came down and then about 8 to 9 hours later, that's when we get the documentation. It was just by the natural way of of how the process worked. We didn't really understand why that third aggravated murder charge was there, but now it's clearly uh part of the intent to shoot directly into that room where uh the brother and and the brother's wife were. And then of course all of that, you know, dialogue as it's written plays into, you know, what Mia's intent really was in all of this. When you hear the brother, there's the yelling, there's a get out of the house. Clearly wasn't supposed to be there as you mentioned. So when you put it all together rather quickly in six pages, um, this really paints a a a surprisingly good picture of what took place, at least from the officer's account here. And from a legal point of view, the brother and his wife might not have been the targets, but if she fired into that room knowing they were there, you can get a murder charge or attempted murder charge. Now, and also I should tell you all the comments that she allegedly made to law enforcement. Sure, defense council will try to say they were coerced. Um, you know, this maybe her Miranda rightites were improperly read. There are different legal arguments you could to make to try to get those statements out. if they we do not have a situation like this and this comes into a trial, you can imagine how devastating that testimony will be for her. Um, and just to finish it up with the counts, counts five, six, seven, and eight, there are felony discharge of a firearm. These are the counts that relate to Bailey's mother, who the medical examiner says was struck by four bullets total. Counts 9 and 10 are felony discharge of a firearm. Um, these are related to Bailey's father, who again was allegedly shot twice. And then count 11 is another firearm charge for allegedly shooting at a brother through a locked door. At the end of the affidavit, the officer requests that Bailey be denied bail. Uh Brian, what is the status on that? >> Well, it makes sense. When I checked in with the Washington County Sheriff's Office yesterday, who um oversees the jail operations at the Purgatory Correctional Facility, which may sound familiar, they're in Hurricane, Utah, where Ruby Frankie and Jod Hildebrandt were held from a lot of our conversations. Um, as as last update as I knew it, Mia was still in observation, um, a lot of the conversation is where is Mia going to be booked with a male population or a female population? And and I specifically asked about that yesterday because of the ongoing >> questions from people. Um, has to do with the point of of Mia's transition. So that'll be determined likely in the next couple weeks. But >> so they don't have an answer on that. They don't they don't have an answer about where >> they did not have an answer at least publicly on the record to me in the moment of where they will likely put Mia after observation which of course a crucial time being booked in 24 48 hours potential suicide you know you name it. And the reason why I bring that up is because I listened to the nearly 45 50 minutes of conversation between officers trying to get Mia to surrender. Um she was in tears. She had a gun to her head. she had a gun in her mouth and that is a very real possibility. So that observation period I think is crucial um in terms of Mia Bailey being held at this point. I I did want to bring it back to some of the other things with the request for no bail that Mia did brag apparently according to the officers about being able to evade law enforcement by hiding in bushes and and you know running from them and maneuvering >> jumping over fences, jumping over fences and walls, hiding in the bushes, >> covering honestly covering a lot of ground too. I mean they had a Department of Public Safety helicopter in the sky that night looking for her. Uh when they found Mia the next day, they did not have a helicopter. they were using drones. They got a tip that somebody had gone off into the field nearby this housing complex. And we've had some great video shared with us by uh some of our KUTV viewers that live there because there's homes all over the place >> and this one giant field that presumably at some point will be another development. But it was just this brush covered field and >> yeah, hearing that play out actually for me was kind of sad, right? Because it was this moment of this person, I think after evading law enforcement for 12 hours, finally started to get the wheels turning about what they had done. The shock had worn off. Mia apparently asking an officer about how do I surrender? What are the penalties? There was genuine concern from Mia about what am I facing now before Mia was even in custody. And then as I mentioned the tears, uh the potential thought of of taking Mia's life in that moment, right? So that was hard to listen to. It really was because it was a crisis moment. Um obviously after the crime was done, which is probably however you want to look at this, awful. So to listen to that kind of come full circle after it's been 12 to 14 hours. It was quite remarkable too because it it was in great detail how officers were describing every which movement. She puts the gun down. She shows the officer it's empty. I mean the whole deal and then taken into custody um as a surrender peacefully. The video shows no actual force from police which sometimes you have to take someone in with force. So looking at all of that, I'm just glad they were able to come up with a good safe resolution given that area was just surrounded by people in their homes and someone walking around with a gun who just gunned down two people, their parents, and also tried to shoot another one. >> 30-year-old Mia Bailey was expected to be in a St. George County, Utah courtroom on Thursday for a status hearing in a brutal double murder case. But when she got there, that is when the public learned that actually she was going to be entering a guilty plea. So now she stares down a prison sentence that is decades long. And when we first told you about Bailey last year, this is when she was taken into custody after an overnight manhunt in Washington City, Utah. She had fled a horrific crime scene at her family's home, which she herself had caused. Okay. She admitted to police that she shot and killed both of her parents, Joseph and Gail Bailey, and even tried to kill her brother, but thankfully wasn't successful. Bailey even reportedly told police, "I would do it again. I hate them." Now, at the time, the big part of this case, the one that got a lot of news attention, was the fact that Bailey had been in the process of transitioning to a female. She had legally changed her assigned gender to female, changed her name to Mia, and there was confusion surrounding her appearance, the clothes she might be wearing, what her hair might look like. So, that made the search for her even more challenging, even more difficult. Now, we're going to dig into the specific claims against Bailey. But first, the big news here. Bailey pleaded guilty in open court on November 6th. >> Miss Bailey, a plea agreement has been reached between you and the state of Utah. Have you been forced into entering this plea here today? >> Uh, no, your honor. >> So, as part of an agreement with the state, Bailey pleaded guilty to two counts of aggravated murder and one count of aggravated assault, as well as being mentally ill at the time she committed the crime. So, pleading guilty and mentally ill, which is an option in Utah, we're going to talk about it. She had originally been facing 11 felony counts and now this big update. So, to help me break down the latest details, I want to welcome back on to Sidebar trial attorney Rich Showenstein. Rich, so good to see you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Okay. Talk to me about what your understanding is here. Cuz Utah's a little different, right? It's not like the traditional insanity defense as we've seen. When someone is pleading guilty and mentally ill, what does that mean? Well, Jesse, as I understand it, and I don't practice in Utah, so I can only go by what I've read, it is a guilty plea to a murder count. So, it she can be sentenced up to life imprisonment without an opportunity for parole, but the within sanity can be considered by the judge in issuing a sentence. It is one of the factors that will be considered. And and that's what I think this guilty plea is all about. It's all about giving the judge a few things to possibly determine that this person could get out of prison someday. >> And it it's been about a year and a half since the murders. And you know, it's been reported that these plea negotiations were going on for quite some time. We know that the legal process can take months and months and months and it's really particularly hard on uh the victim's families uh and also by the way defendants's families too. So it can seem like you know it's taking way too long to get some sort of re resolution. But when you hear that back and forth when you think about this case does that timeline make sense to you? >> Yeah, I don't have a problem with that timeline. I mean it is a complex case. I I know sometimes these things seem really straightforward. I mean, she essentially has admitted the crimes. They obviously got the right person. Why can't we just get to a conviction and move this on? But this case involved the possibility of an insanity defense and some other complicating issues. And so it it had to move along at a certain time. And I gather there were settlement discussions. I don't know how long those discussions have been going on between the prosecutors and the defense, but that was going on in the background, too. That may have slowed things down. I don't have a problem with the timeline. >> And it's not even the heinous nature of the crime. It's what Bailey has been saying that you can kind of get a sense of why this might not be so shocking and whether she will get some sort of treatment as a result of this in addition to prison time or whether there is a uh she has to be committed to a state hospital for a period of time. I mean because she's facing 25 years to life without parole on each of those murder charges and her uh sentence is scheduled for uh December 19th. Now, the prosecution had earlier announced that the death penalty was not going to be not going to be on the table for this case. Here's the part that I mentioned. Okay, according to local outlet KSL TV, Bailey did something that I haven't seen. Okay, actually wrote a letter to the Utah Supreme Court herself asking for that to be reversed. She apparently, Rich, wanted the death penalty and she wanted to fire her attorney. What did you make of that? Uh well, I I mean that's troubling conduct by a defendant. Um you know, somebody who wants to be published, uh somebody who theoretically wants to be put to death, uh that that would concern me a lot in my own determination about whether this person is mentally fit for trial. So, I didn't know exactly what to make of it. >> Yeah. By the way, when somebody wants to fire their attorney, generally speaking, how much does the court allow that? Right. because they do they have they're [clears throat] entitled to an attorney but not a choice of their attorney, right? How does that work? >> Right? So, we see a lot of these cases where people get courtapp appointed attorneys and the relationship doesn't work out for one reason or another. And as a general matter, you're entitled to counsel and you're also entitled to have some choice in that process. You can't be stuck with a lawyer that you fundamentally don't trust. And like the first time you want to fire a lawyer, I think for the most part you can do that and they can appoint somebody else. But sometimes we see in these cases there's a second or a third or a fourth time and eventually it becomes apparent that the problem is not with the lawyers being selected. The problem is not with the relationship. The problem is fundamentally with the client. And in those circumstances, eventually a court will lose patience and say, you know, you're out of choices. You can have this lawyer, you can find one on your own and pay for it yourself, or you can represent yourself. >> You know what happened though when you hear something like this? The fifth district judge, uh, Keith Barnes, immediately ordered a competency evaluation. Again, not surprising considering what we're talking about. And in early October, uh, Bailey's attorney, Ryan Stout, told the court that his client had, in fact, been found competent to stand trial. Now, just to be clear, we all know that's different than insanity. It's just competency. Do you understand the charges? Can you assist in your own defense? Do you know what's going on? So, per uh KSL, he told the court, quote, I think the evaluation report does a good job of pointing out the litany of mental health issues my client has had over the years and currently, but also does a good job of going through and applying my client's current status and ability to comprehend the proceedings. Now, Rich, in this case, it was the judge who ordered this competency evaluation. Um, talk to me about, you know, that seemed appropriate here. I guess I I guess it's a determination by the court when they see or even a determination or request by the defense attorney when they have to have a there's a serious question of mental health. Right. >> Right. I I I think you know as as a baseline issue the defendant has to be competent as you said perfectly in distinguishing between competency for trial and uh and insanity. They have to be able to participate in the defense and understand the charges and a judge should have that assessed if the judge has any question about it. And as we've been discussing, some of her positions and some of the things she was asking for here did raise a genuine issue. And I absolutely think that evaluation was appropriate and I credit the judge for ordering it. Good job. And get this, KSL TV reports that at the very end of the hearing, Bailey actually spoke up and asked the judge to hold a bail hearing because she's been behind bars since her arrest in June of 2024. There was no possibility of release. She reportedly told the court it was either to the effect of I'd like to or I have to get my surgery and meds fixed. Okay. Now, when her attorney told the judge that he'd advise his client not to request a bail hearing, that is when she then tried to fire him again. The judge told Bailey that right now couldn't order a bail hearing at that moment. Uh, and according to KSL, he would add it to the docket for November 6th when she was next due in court for a status update. But, as we mentioned, instead, she plead guilty. Something the prosecution, by the way, said the victims in this case were quote on board with. Let's start there, Rich. How important is it to get the victim's family or the victims themselves uh on board with a guilty plea? Um because a lot of times, you know, they would say, "I want to take this fully to trial, ultimate punishment, you know, have the day in court." Talk to me about that. >> So, it's not legally required. The prosecutors can negotiate bail without having the victims on board. We've seen that happen before and we've seen cases where there are different victims that have different ideas about what should be done and the prosecutors have to come up with a conclusion. I think it's important. I think the justice system exists for the victims uh both to to punish the wrongdoer but also to advocate on behalf of the victims. And I always think the victims should be consulted in the process, but they can't drive, you know, they they can't insist on a trial if there's nothing to be tried. I mean, she is pleading guilty to the top charges in this count. She is subject to the top punishment that was being sought. There really would be no reason to have a trial. uh you know, if the victims wanted to make a public spectacle of it or to inflict punishment on her by having it be a trial, that's not really a good enough reason. So, uh it sounds like they were consultants. I view that as important, but it can't control the case. >> Now, this judge ordered a pre-sentence investigation to be done uh before the actual sentencing hearing. Why is that important? What are they looking for in a pre-sentencing investigation? Well, the judges always consider a variety of factors in issuing a sentence. You know, one thing you want to know is the background of the defendant. Is there any criminal history? What are the other factors in their life that may have contributed to this crime? What else is going on here? I'm sure the judge is going to consider the medical circumstances that appear to be an issue here. um the judge is going to want to, you know, figure out if there's any possible future here and go through the process of getting a report that puts all that information together. That's you usually get a pre-sentencing report in any kind of case like this. >> Yeah. And and by the way, while I have you and as we're talking about this, I I can't just glean over the crime, okay? I I think it's very important because that's going to be the subject of this, too. really understanding from the victim's family members and the victim and um you know what happened here. Um so I want to go back and I want to talk about how we got here and just the absolutely disturbing details that we learned about Bailey's crime crimes uh in the days after her rampage. So Bailey was reportedly seen on neighborhood cameras driving up to her parents' home in Washington city in her yellow Kia soul. Bailey didn't live at the house and in fact there was a protective order in place. This is according to KSL. But the exact circumstances that led to that protective order unclear. Seems like there was issues with the family. But when Bailey entered through an unlocked door, her brother reportedly later told police that he could hear his parents shouting at her to get out. Going to this affidavit that was filed with the court. It says, quote, "Mia admitted that she entered the house and almost immediately began shooting at her mother, GB. Mia described firing multiple shots at her mother. Multiple spent casings were located inside the home in the area near where JB's body was located. Mia stated that her father JB heard the shots and began walking towards her. Mia stated that she shot her father in the head and that he immediately dropped to the ground. After going downstairs for a time, Mia came back upstairs. Mia described that she returned to her father who was lying on the ground and shot him one more time in the head to make sure that he was dead. While doing that, Mia heard her mother making noises, walked back over to her mother, and shot her in the head to make sure that she was dead. Mia further stated that she did not have remorse for her actions and that she would not change what she had done. Mia stated, "I would do it again. I hate them." You know, Rich, aside from the fact that this would have been an incredibly difficult case to defend, um the the cold and callous nature of this is something that could very much work against her in sentencing, but just just a disgusting crime. >> Yeah, I think it will work against her in sentencing. We we distinguish and the law distinguishes between what we call heat of passion murders where someone suddenly snaps and kills someone often a loved one with premeditated murder and this murder is premeditated. She came to the house to commit a crime and then once inside had a lot of opportunities to stop, right? Shot them, could have stopped and and not come back and shot them again. So, it's premeditated at the beginning. It has opportunities for her to stop. She doesn't. There's the attempted murder or assault of the brother, whatever you want to call that. And then there is this complete lack of remorse. And not just lack of remorse. You think about a lot of defendants aren't really remorseful, but saying I would do it again. I hate them. That that's the opposite of remorse, right? So that stuff is going to be very, very difficult for her at sentencing. I don't know if just adding this but mentally ill factor to the conviction is gonna going to get her out of a life sentence. >> I I'll just tell you this much. This is not a case of self-defense. This is not a case of heat of passion when you're hearing something like this. Just going in and straight up shooting. But I'll also tell you, and we've mentioned this before, it wasn't just her parents that Bailey targeted. Going back to the affidavit, it reads, "After shooting both GB and JB on the main floor of the residence, Mia went downstairs to the basement of the home. While downstairs, Mia sought out her brother CB, who had locked himself in his bedroom after hearing an argument and gunshots upstairs. Upon discovering the locked door, Mia fired one round through the door in the direction of her brother. The brother's door was observed to have a hole consistent with a small caliber round. Further, a suspected bullet hole was observed in the wall inside of the brother's room. Mia stated that her brother was not her main target, but she would not have been sad had the gunshot killed him. Mia indicated that she knew her brother and his wife were in that bedroom, but they were not the main target. CB and his wife. AB both described hearing banging on the bedroom door and then a gunshot as they were trying to flee the residence from a downstairs window. I mean, it's a miracle that they're alive. Um, but Rich, you also get a sense of the charges, why why she was charged with what she was with respect to the brother, but you also wonder if they're going to provide some statements uh at sentencing as well. >> Yeah, they they might you might they would have the opportunity to do that presumably at a sentencing hearing or to submit it in writing and they may want to be heard on that. >> Yep. Uh the affidavit also included a recommendation that the court not grant Bailey bail. So, quote, "In her interviews, Mia describes jumping fences or walls, hiding in bushes, sleeping in a park bathroom, and other efforts to elude law enforcement. Mia bragged about her ability to avoid the efforts of law enforcement to locate her, including evading officers, hiding from helicopters, and hiding from drones. When Mia was ultimately apprehended, she was hiding in a prickly bush. Mia went to great efforts to evade law enforcement, and is a substantial flight risk if released on bail. I mean, even if she hadn't plead uh plead guilty, Rich. And today was supposed to be her bail hearing, she wasn't going to get it. >> No. Not in a million years was anyone going to give her bail given the nature of the crime and obviously a flight risk. And you know, on some level, there's some level of mental unstability here. Whether you want to call it incompetent or mentally ill, but there's something going on there. You wouldn't feel good about letting her on out on bail. There was no way that was going to happen. >> For this story, we go to Saratoga Springs, Utah, a city roughly 35 miles south of Salt Lake City. There, a community is left devastated trying to understand how a mother and son were shot inside their own home. It was the morning of March 28th, 2025, just after 10:00 a.m. Saratoga Springs Police received a 911 call. According to Saratoga Springs Police, a 17-year-old girl had just returned home and found her mother, Jessica Lyman, and eight-year-old brother, Eli Painter, shot and covered in blood. Police say another sibling, a 15-year-old boy, was also inside the home at the time. He was uninjured. First responders rushed to the scene and tried to desperately save both mom and son, but for little Eli, it was already too late. He was pronounced dead at the scene. Jessica was still clinging to life. She was airlifted in critical condition to a nearby hospital. Investigators sealed off the home, collecting evidence and interviewing family members. In a press conference, Saratoga Springs Police Chief Bill Robertson made it clear no one was being ruled out. >> Everybody's a suspect to us right now until we can get down the road um on some things and start piecing it together. While investigators said there was no danger to the public, detectives were sent to the hospital as Jessica fought for her life. >> Um, it's critical condition, extremely critical condition. So, uh, and and and she's got family at the hospital, too. Um, >> 3 days later, Jessica died from her injuries. Police confirmed her two surviving children, who have a different father than Eli, are now with their biological father. The house remains a crime scene as detectives work to uncover who pulled the trigger. Eli's obituary describes him as energetic, loving, and full of curiosity. He was born on Valentine's Day and is remembered by those who knew him as someone who brought joy and warmth into every room. Jessica is remembered as a great mother, described by loved ones as loyal, fierce, and full of life. Now, more than a week after the shooting, there's still no arrests, no named suspects, and no clear answers. Just a haunting question that remains unanswered. Who would want this mother and son dead and why? And joining me to talk more about this is retired police chief Mike King. Mike, thank you so much for coming on today. Let's jump right in. What is the first thing officers are trained to do when they arrive at a double shooting scene like this? I'll tell you, these are so complex when you walk through the door and and the first thing obviously is you want to secure that scene. You want to make sure that everyone inside that is alive is being treated and cared for. If if there are people that are inside that are not associated with the homicide in this particular case, you want to also get them into a a little bit of a controlled environment where you can make sure that they're not going to further contaminate the scene. If if the victim is clearly deceased, then you're going to want to keep firefighters and other people from coming in. If there's any chance of a life-saving opportunity, then you got to let them go in, which sometimes really creates a lot of uh distraction and a lot of uh evidence that becomes problematic down the road. >> How does law enforcement typically determine whether a crime was targeted versus random? You know, as you think about this particular case case, what what I do or what I did when I was a young investigator was you start looking at the the environment and the behavior and you try to look at it in totality rather than just, you know, looking at one specific thing. Number one, [clears throat] the kinds of wounds that you're re you're uh seeing on the victim, would they be something that would have happened with close contact uh physical um one-on-one and where we know this is a shooting, we don't know if this was from a long rifle, a long barreled weapon and could have happened from the street corner or if it was something that happened at close range. So you look at things like is there some gunpowder bo uh burns around the wound? They call it stippling. This idea that maybe there was a close range shot versus something that happened out in front of the house and through the picture window. But when you have two victims, you start looking at some of the behaviors inside of the room from the perspective of where are those wounds? Are they wounds that would appear that the the person who pulled the trigger was facing headon or was uh one of the wounds uh a victim who may have been running away from the scene and shot as they were trying to flee. So all of these things can start providing some real interesting behaviors that can help you kind of theorize what was going on in the crime scene. And and then you got to look more beyond just the victim themselves and start looking at the crime scene in totality. Is there something that indicates that the predator in this particular case forced their way into the residence or were they somehow able to con their way in or they're known to the victims and they walked in? And one thing that I found was interesting is shortly after um you know police came to the scene there was a press conference and the police chief said that everyone is a suspect. What does that actually mean from an investigative standpoint? >> Primarily it means that they don't know who did it for one thing that they haven't been able to isolate that there wasn't someone with a smoking gun saying hey I did it I give up. uh and rightly so, everyone needs to be a suspect from uh the family members to the community to the unknown predator. And so what you really do, we often times want to look at these cases and and come up with this real quick answer or question of who done it? And and in reality, what we need to do is kind of change our focus and focus on who are the victims in this case and why did they become a victim? Because that often opens up some real possibility of who potentially would be the person that might have committed this crime. So, if in fact this was a targeted homicide, uh usually statistically what we've learned over time is that people who are targeted as victims, the person who kills them is usually known to them or or at least knows who they are, maybe by peeking through the window of the house or, you know, stalking them. But but there is a relationship between this when the victim is low risk and and without knowing Jessica Lyman or her son, it would appear based on their lifestyle, the kind of place that they're living, the way they dress, um what what you can learn by some of the things we're hearing about their background. These were probably low-risk people. So, that makes you really start to wonder, is it someone in a closer inner circle that's involved in this homicide? And then if it is someone closer, then what was the reasoning behind that? But there's always this um quick knee-jerk reaction we have to jump to a conclusion that, oh, it's got to be a family member or it's got to be the next door neighbor or whatever the case may be. But what we've also learned is that when we look at at the victimology or the study of the victim that they can change everything by maybe circumstances or environment or a situation. So, so it could be that a random person's walking down the road selling magazines who truly is a predator and uses that con to get inside and because this low-risk victim opens the door, all of a sudden this victim is a victim of opportunity, not a victim who's targeted. So, it's it's kind of interesting that we we want to jump to a conclusion because in our minds, we just want this thing solved. We want to know that we're safe and we want to know why this mom and her 8-year-old son are killed. >> What are some investigative red flags that could raise suspicion early on? >> Well, you you immediately, again, I think the most critical thing law enforcement has to do in these kinds of investigations outside of securing the scene and collecting physical evidence is to to conduct those interviews. We know that there was a 15-year-old boy in the home. Was he in the home and was he aware of what happened? Or was he wearing earphones and completely unaware of what happened? And we we don't know any of these answers. And we want to jump to conclusions, but we just don't know. We know that a a daughter walked in and found her parents and or her mother and her brother and made this 911 phone call. So um we we have to know that that first and foremost we've got to start conducting interviews but then the interviews continue in ways of forensics or behavior and and we look at all of these traditional forms of evidence that are collected at crime scenes. But then we start introducing in these ideas of based on theory sometimes of who might have a reason. Is there a vindictive family member? Is there a business deal that's gone wrong? What what's going on in their life that would have created any risk for them? >> And let's talk more about those interviews. How do police typically approach interviews with family members who are also potential witnesses or suspects? Well, in this particular case, again, you have to think about the emotional impact that this homicide uh once it's discovered, if the boy didn't hear it happening uh in that house, that all of a sudden he's faced with the trauma of this horrendous crime scene. Um if he was involved in some way, was a participant who escaped or a participant who had some role in it. Those things become really important too because then you're talking about mirandizing someone and questioning them as a potential suspect versus questioning them as a witness to a crime that occurred. So there are so many different dynamics going on in these kinds of investigations which really points to the fluidity of these cases and the the uh role that law enforcement plays in quickly assessing. And you know sometimes we go to court and we we watch the courts argue for months and months over uh whether a police officer made the right decision in that fraction of a second or the wrong decision. Think about all the decisions that are being made just on the questions that you've asked me today about um walking into a crime scene where two bodies are dead. Determining whether they're alive or dead, whether they need help or whether they're beyond help. Starting to control that crime scene so that you can collect physical evidence and forensic evidence. determining what information should be captured before uh a cell phone goes into automatic shutdown mode or or or logs off and you need a password versus being able to see who the last caller was on a cell phone. all of these things that are happening that a police officer today has to make instantaneous decisions on, including am I going to interview this individual as a witness or as a suspect or am I going to wait because of the trauma and have a forensic examiner talk to him and do it in a more clinical setting. All of these things have to happen all at once. And uh and it just it constantly reminds me of what what responsibility we place on first responders when they respond to cases like this. >> And and clearly we are are speculating here, but we know that it's just tough to interview anyone, let alone a minor who just lost their their parent. But do we think that that's the reason why we still don't have any type of idea about a suspect because they haven't interviewed uh the son yet? >> Boy, I have I have no idea. But but what I am doing, as much as I don't like it as a journalist, I I'm really grateful that the police department's remaining tight lipped and they're securing and protecting their criminal case because they've got to build a case against someone and they don't want to let someone know that they're looking at them too quickly in hopes that they might make some mistakes. There might be some forensic mistakes or some other things. And so I I find myself now that I'm out of the law enforcement profession like you wishing I could get more information, but then I'm also quietly cheering that they're keeping their lips really tight and they're they're investigating a homicide. >> But you've been doing this for a long time. Is it and I know every case is different. Is it normal that you know a week or you know more has gone by and we don't have any idea about any type of suspect in this case? I mean, a mother and her young son killed in the home and they haven't released anything. >> Um, it it is uh probably becoming the norm in this digital age that we're living in. And I wonder, and this is something I just personally speculate about, that if we're not seeing less being shared now because so much is inappropriately shared by social media, by by uh creators in in YouTube and Twitter and everywhere else that if I were in charge of investigations, I would be more tight- lipped knowing that I can at least control some of that information. as frustrating as it is to me now on this side of the fence. >> Well, how exactly do detectives determine if someone inside the home may have been involved or truly didn't see anything? How would they go about figuring that out? Well, if we were to be specific to this case and if there were questions of whether, for instance, the 15year-old had something to do with this simple tests like gunshot residue tests on the hands to determine if there's gunpowder residue that that blowback on the hands of of the individual. if there's intimate knowledge about things that happened that only the perpetrator would know, those kinds of things start to help you as you you uh kind of um figure out whether this person's a suspect or a witness to the crime. And those are the kinds of things that are going on in this case. It may be extending into looking at the social media of the victims. or their transactions on their social media that suggest somebody's getting elevated in their anger or frustration. And those kinds of things would lead you to looking at people more closely. And and as the chief said, everyone needs to be a suspect until they can be eliminated. And I always think about the wise council of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who if you remember penned all the Sherlock Holmes books. He said, "It's a capital mistake to make your mind up before you have all the facts." Because if you do that, you spend all your time trying to twist facts to meet your theory rather than just letting all of the information on flow or unfold and come up with an actual uh theory that makes sense and is backed by evidence. >> Yeah. And that definitely makes a lot of sense. Well, when police are investigating incidents like this one, not this one specifically, but but any type of, you know, shooting or homicide investigation, how important is the position of the bodies or the direction of bullet wounds when building a timeline? >> Absolutely important. In fact, I think we're seeing the realities of that, how important that is. Even in the opening statements of like the Lorie Del case against Charles Valow right now, where they specifically said that first round appears to to have been inflicted as someone stood directly in front of the victim and fired a weapon. But the second round appears to have come from the lower part of the body exiting out of the top, indicating that the victim was laying on the ground and executed at the time that second shot was fired. So, as you think about this particular case, where those wounds are and the amount of wounds are going to be really something that's indicative to was this just a plain out execution? Was it a very anger-driven homicide, which is hard to separate the two? Homicide is homicide. And are the are there defensive wounds or wounds that would indicate that the victim was running away and shot like in the back or something like that? All of these are going to paint a crucial picture that will help identify what was going on at the time those murders occurred. >> And what can shell casings or bullet trajectories tell you about a possible suspect as well? >> Well, clearly where the if the bullet exits the body or where it ends up in the body, it's going to tell you the angle that it had to be fired. Bullets travel in a straight line. Now, uh, if you want to get really scientific, a bullet will actually go up in elevation and then drop down to the point that it's sighted in to hit the right point on the the, uh, target if it's a long rifle, for instance. But you can pretty well plan on the fact that if a bullet were to enter here in my chest and exit up here on my shoulder, you can almost draw a straight line that says that bullet started at some point at the end of this line. bullets aren't going to curve and move through. So, trajectory bullet um where the bullet ends up, all of that is incredibly important from a forensic standpoint. And where the casings end up are also going to be incredibly interesting because you can actually start to project scientifically how far a casing should should expand or or jump from the weapon when it's fired and then the casing is sent out of the weapon. And if you recover a weapon that you believe is the the murder weapon, you can compare that casing to the weapon itself, you can fire that weapon and see how far does the casing fly when it comes out. Each of these become really important forensic kinds of tools that you can say, "We feel really comfortable that this weapon caused this person's death." And when they find evidence like this, how often are detectives reintering the same people as just the case continues to evolve? >> If the person's smart, they're not re interviewing him at all because they've said, "I want a lawyer," and they're [clears throat] not talking anymore. Um, and and uh so sometimes when investigators uh get a chance to go back, we say you can usually only get one dip at the well. uh if they get a chance to go back, it's usually very short-lived because people are figuring out, hey, I've got some real liability here and they ask for an attorney. So, so not very often do we see people coming back, but in cases in my experience where people were very arrogant and felt like they were smarter than the system and the investigator. They'll sometimes continue to try to profess their innocence and continue to to say I'll be interviewed because that in essence is saying I'm innocent. I don't have anything to hide. U and and uh so I don't know. It's a that's a tough question. I I I rarely do you get many returns to dip water from the well. >> Right. Right. I understand. Well, from your experience, what typically breaks a case open like this? Well, on a case like this, I think what will break it open is if there are digital footprints that suggest any kind of animosity or a growing problem, something to suggest. Again, it really boils down to the victimology. And then you start looking at who are the suspects in this possible pool of suspects that most likely align with these kinds of frustrations. And then from there, it's just it's just determining based on forensic evidence. Is there phone data that says, "Hey, whether you want to tell us you were there or not, your phone is telling us you were in that home or your fingerprint is suggesting you were there and you shouldn't have been or whatever." And so, it's going to be a combination to make a successful case. It's going to be a a combination of physical evidence of forensic evidence of uh eyewitness accounts if they are there maybe during the interview process if there are confessions or admissions one way or another. And then uh the idea that there might actually be behavioral evidence that supports the kinds of things that went on. >> Well, thank you so much. I definitely appreciate you coming on and we will be following this case very closely. >> That's a crazy one. >> Thank you. >> The victim's families have created a GoFundMe page. They say funds will go towards covering immediate expenses and providing necessary emotional support as they work through this painful journey. >> So truly a bizarre story out of Salt Lake City, Utah. A 65year-old man named Donald Matthew Santa Croachi shows up at a Wells Fargo bank and like people do, he goes up to the teller, but he doesn't hand the teller a deposit or a withdrawal slip. Instead, it seems like Santa Crochi handed the teller a note saying, quote, "Please pardon me for doing this, but this is a robbery. Please give me $1. Thank you." Santa Crochce reportedly then asked bank employees to call the police and waited in the lobby for them to arrive. When authorities did arrive, Santa Crochce handed the police a $1 bill and asked to be sent to federal prison. At the time of this recording, authorities have not said why Santa Crochi wanted to go to prison. The 65-year-old was later booked in the Salt Lake County Jail on a robbery charge. So, joining us now to break down this truly one-of-a-kind holdup is Big Herk. Big Herk is the founder and host of Fresh Out YouTube and a former inmate who spent 10 years in federal prison for bank robbery. Big Herk, thanks so much for coming on. What would cause someone to willingly want to go back to jail? >> Um, when you pretty much checked out, they call it. And checked out is a term where a person has given up on life. They given up on themselves. They really find no purpose in living in the free world. So an easy escape would be to either commit a a violentless crime to get sent back to prison or jail so that they don't have to worry about all the burdens that they were dealing with on the street. Or a lot of guys will violate and go back to prison where they can get a prison job and have a, you know, a bed, food, and just live the prison life because um they they pretty much become institutionalized and and the real world doesn't really suit them. >> So demanding $1 and then asking to be put back in jail, it's a little different from what you did. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, you you're talking about I wasn't trying to check out I wasn't trying to check out a society. I was trying to put together a financial move in a very reckless fashion nonetheless. But it wasn't, you know, something like that today I would never entertain. I mean, as a grown man who's in his 60s who's doing that, that's telling you what his life has come to. He has no purpose. He feels he has no value on the street. those people in prison who are excited to go work in the kitchen, who's excited to go work for Unicor, who look forward to commissary, who uh embrace um you know seeing comrades that they hadn't seen because these guys are back in prison. That's a different type of mentality. I never associated with people like that in prison. >> How would uh other inmates respond to someone who intentionally tried to get themselves locked up? Um, I mean, it really wouldn't make a difference. I mean, somebody like that has their own niche in prison, whether it's uh doing time by themselves or maybe associating with other deadbeats like that who have that same prison mentality, convict, exfellon mentality. I mean, dude, a dollar. I mean, what does that tell you? You know what I mean? And he wants to go to feds. See, typically that would be probably a state case because it's not really affecting interstate commerce. So it, you know, it's not necessarily a federal case, but going to the feds and wanting to go to a camp, that would be somebody who felt like, you know, I'm locked up, but there's no walls or fences. So is a sense of freedom, but somebody's telling me what to do. It's like going to grownup daycare. Hm. Well, he he got sent to the county jail, but is there anything you know about the specific jail in Utah? It's a federal prison that he wanted to go to. >> Um, I don't know anything about the the federal prison as far as in Utah, how they get down out there. I know there is a lot of uh uh child related cases in there. A lot of those guys have some weird cases and they pretty much have their own yard. So Utah's notorious for underage related cases that these guys wouldn't last in a mainstream population. So they have their own institutions there for those individuals. But as far as uh why he wants to go to that camp there, maybe he's from Utah, maybe he's done time there before, he felt like he's comfortable going back there. And it's sad, man. And that just shows you that the guy he's pretty much um lost his sense of freedom as a individual who could function in the real world. >> Sad I think is the right word to use. So what what's the difference between the county jail that he got put into and the federal prison that he wanted to get put into? >> Well, county jail is, you know, people coming in and out. You got drug addicts, you got purse snatchers, you got rapists, you got child molesters, you got all these different people, people people fighting their cases, you know, um in and out with the with the um the cos in the in the county jail, the the the local sheriff. It's it's a lot more uh unstability as far as your programming and and people coming in and out. Once you get to an institution, it's people doing time. People have conditioned themselves to make that home. I never looked at it like that. But in prison, it's sad, man. You got people in there who are actually waxing their floor, polishing their toilets and sinks, and they give value to that. They act like they take pride, but they don't take pride in their freedom. You, you know, you left your kids, you left your wife, you left your family, now you're in prison, and you're buffing a prison floor and shining a toilet and you're ironing your clothes and you're thinking you're somebody in prison. That's that's that's pitiful, man. >> Maybe it's the structure of it all. >> Well, it's the mentality. It's not the struct You don't have to buy into the structure. I did time all the guys I pretty much associate with now that I did time with, none of them brought into that structure. None of them act like they were all they could be in prison. None of them really adapted that prison mentality or psychosis. So, it's a it's it's a it's a it's a matrix just like it is out here. You can either buy into it or you can you can fight it and hold on to your sense of humanity so when you get out you can function. A lot of people they lose it in there. >> Can you think of anything in prison that would ever make you want to go back to jail? >> Hell no. [laughter] There's nothing in prison that would ever drive me to want to go back there. There's not one thing. Every day I was in there I felt like a loser. I felt like I let my family down. I felt like I let myself down. I felt like I was selling myself short. The levels of conversation, the mentality of the people, the racism, the hatred, all the the stupidity. I just seen that. And then the the fact that I'm allowing another grown man to tell me what to do as far as my daily functions. There's that. You could you couldn't pay me to want to go back and subject myself to that type of environment.