come on okay yeah this how's it going David Norris um I'm David Norris this is Jerry Salters uh we just wanted to talk to you a little bit we're with uh Athens Clark County and we work uh cold cases and we're going back over some cases and while we were going back over some we were viewing some of the reports and stuff and we saw that there was a uh your last name of LaRoche uh maybe lived over in an area where an incident happened at years ago and we didn't see where anybody had talked to anybody either you or your family or anything like that so we just wonder if you ask us you know help answer a few questions and kind of go over some stuff like that with my sister but um who was your sister okay that's it but what is it to happen and this this was back was man this is probably uh probably about 15 16 years ago it's been a while how long ago has it been since she stayed with your sister it's been a while has it been that long or how about eight uh 16 16. okay how old are you now in your 30s yeah so oh okay so that's probably 15 16 years something like that you say Couture was your sister yeah if you remember where she stayed at or where she lived at not exactly and what was her last name High School I'm sorry Athens oh yeah which high school was it Clark Central or Cedar Shoals Clark Central now did you grow up in Athens no no people I didn't know a lot of people but I got to know a lot of people there okay if you didn't grow up where did you did y'all move to Athens at some point was she um because the situation happened where I was a long story but I don't know if y'all heard it Dr York who was Edenton Georgia and she got custody of me because my parents was going through a case for the traveling station stuff so okay we'll move there with her no yeah we I'm not familiar with any of that so so I was stuck so she got full custody of me to go to school because I had no other parents to go to until you know my father and then got over with the court because we go back and forth to court and stuff okay you know from Edenton Georgia dealing with Sheriff's sales and stuff I got you okay and so I guess at some point she got custody of you and that's why y'all did she move to Athens or does she already live in there because she was already there okay and I was moving my father and stuff didn't work out because I guess I told him about the situation I had to go back to court for you know to testify against you know Dr Yorkie okay yeah I wasn't I was I'm not familiar with any of that stuff you said you moved with your dad also what's his name um Bruce LaRoche he was in Lithonia and then stuff that um stuff didn't happen to work out you know with him and we moved to um Athens then okay and you remember about Athens I don't know what I don't remember the dates but I know after Athens I came where I go to have the Evans we moved to Atlanta I moved to Conyers into Atlanta hey they called me oh God I don't know um well that's a long time ago yeah I remember all the day yeah take you a minute if you need to think about it yeah yeah so your dad lived in Athens or did your sister live in Africa and then you and your dad moved and lived with your sister no my sisters lived in Athens I moved no I moved from my dad house to Athens from Athens I moved with um put out there in heaven then I moved now I go back to Lithonia I think my sister didn't move from Athens to Conyers okay and I stayed with them there and then from there before I moved to them I don't know but I know I got a passport and I had all this written down okay I knew it did but I was young I was just you know you know that I you know just trying to finish school and stuff I gotcha okay so the only person that tested me to the custody until I was 18. your sister did and then I moved to Savannah with Dean and then and we I started working who is Dean he's um my brother-in-law brother and my other cousin Lim stayed in Athens to Lynn LaRoche so you know that's who I was dating as it was and Liam is your brother so it's my cousin cousin first cousin and Dean was your brother but what that got I mean so what the case like it's got something to do with me no it's your name the the LaRoche name came up as living over in the area and we were trying to find out uh about the name that's when your name popped up and so we wanted to come talk to anybody that lived in the area because we were looking back over to case File we just didn't see where anybody had talked to y'all back then nobody about that okay I don't even know what happened but I know he's still living in Athens he got a whole family there I ain't been to Athen decades okay I don't remember since yes it's probably like and your sister's last name was LaRoche no Eddington Eddington okay same mom same dad but same last name though like my name is Muhammad abdulillah I can't even go nowhere without being you know stop no I got you I got you and you say you went to Clark Central yeah okay and y'all came from um where sheer seals is I don't know if you heard about that but yeah I'll deal with that and is that the Milwaukee yeah okay I remember you know because my family wasn't the family that got have my scissors my cousin got you know as a little kids Dr York did stuff with as well as myself you know they got involved human trafficking and all that okay but um you know now the address that we're interested in was over off on Broad Street in Athens it was 2360 West Broad Street it's College Place Apartments do you reckon yes um I think that's what my sister instead was Broad Street okay yeah yeah that's that's the place where the incident happened at so that's the one in in the area yeah and uh and I got in the same house and I got a picture of it right here this might help kind of jog your memory since it was so long ago um that's kind of the entrance to it right there it still looks the same yeah okay and then that I think uh when we was looking up the name we saw a connection to the end building is that the building where your sister was staying at uh for me I remember the building there okay I don't know exactly but I don't know okay I don't even know that look that's the same spot but that's why I brought the pictures because it was so long ago you know sometimes it's hard to remember stuff like that um what was going on at the time uh with you staying over there with your sister was you working anywhere or doing anything I was going to school just going to school working at Winn-Dixie only thing when Dixie's open anymore I think they've gone out of business okay I was young man 16. okay did you know anybody over there in the apartment complex we played basketball with a few people but I got the known personally I mean I know a few people I think we used to all play basketball over there me and his black dude and he was just always smelling you always teasing but you know you remember what his name was or anything nah just somebody shot ball with yeah you know how you get on the court everybody huh that's right that's right whoever's out there playing pickup games stuff like that yeah I'm right there okay you still play ball no I don't play ball okay I work for Mattress Firm okay well what happened over there uh well there was a lady I heard something happened over there okay when did you hear about something happening over there when you was living over there no no from what my cousin Lynn told me something happened he said something happened over there the cop was over there and I didn't know exactly he never told me he didn't want to tell me I got you I just left it alone was you not had you already left and not moved out no I was there still okay I was in high school and all that I got you and some lady came and got me from school asked me something I don't know what was about but she said some but I don't think it was a deal with that though some lady like a family member or just some stranger counselor like a counselor said somebody wanted to see me and they asked me something about um I don't know but it wasn't pretending to that though well let's just asked me for my last name she said yeah so okay and now I think that was it what does she want to talk about now that you just asked my name oh okay I just kind of you know it's a stranger coming up to you and asking no no she was a school counselor like a principal okay oh when you say came and got you talking about coming got you in school I thought she's like talking about coming picked you up and took you somewhere or something yeah okay did you other than shooting basketball out there do you have anybody that you hung out with out there I mean I don't have a few other um people but I don't think it was in that area though because you know like summertime I think when I was down this summer time winter time I stayed attending for like one knee I don't know when we moved out or when we moved but I know we we moved from there to Conyers but I know a lot of people but I know a few white folks Black Folk but I just don't know their names I don't even know how they look right now all right really okay um do you remember no do you know a uh Pamela Chrysler Pamela Chrysler I don't know no she's young she was in high school no she was an older lady real old I'm gonna have a photo of them right here did you know her Pamela Chrisley I don't know but I probably that's the answer that word that's that's the instant what we're talking about who is she she's just a lady that lived over there uh she ended up she was involved in an incident and uh she ended up getting killed over there I know I ain't no but I know like the ones doing like you know like I'll try to make extra money I made 40 dollars like taking out track but that was about it though but I didn't really know her personally I don't even know who she is and knocked on doors here and there but everybody did you you remember meeting her or anything like that I probably did but I don't remember like I know a lot of you know from Athens I know a lot I'm not gonna feed those but I don't remember just me and a person okay would have been doors like in that apartment complex that you would have knocked on or like in the neighborhood yeah later neighborhood door-to-door just see if they want to take trash out every now and then you know don't feel like going nowhere okay that's what my sister told me to do for money because that's before I started looking at Winn-Dixie then I started working at Winn-Dixie well I got you and then when Dixie was like they wasn't giving me too many hours oh my gosh well I was just going to school I was working okay anybody what about uh this guy right here did you know him his name is uh George I don't know I don't know nothing right probably did I probably don't but it was a while I know a lot of people that probably forgot to face it but okay or actually Charles I think that was his name not George but Charles okay I don't know I don't even did I see him did he stay in the apartment too they did they lived over there in the apartment I mean I don't know I don't know so you say you might have known I mean I might have no I might know him at all I really don't think I know them but I probably did some work for them if I did but I don't know them though okay what kind of work would you have done just taking trash out yeah just you know small stuff not you know amazing not cleaning up no house so that you know not nothing okay come on not working right now but I don't know them though is that something that you did yeah like yeah is that something you did when you was over there cleaned up houses too no I never seen them housing I said like just for extra money like before um like when I first got there because my sister lived in here and then she had a newborn and you know but I'll just you know knock my door as soon as I might need trash taking out whatever but I don't know them though what they got to do with the um well that's the that's the that's the lady that was killed yeah yeah and she has something to do with me well she just lived over there in the apartment complex where your sister lived in the same complex that's right yeah the same public yeah the same yeah like the complex there there was a multi-building I know but it's the same building not the same building I I don't know I mean I know people but I don't you know I just remember facing I don't I don't know I know that'd be what I still don't know you know yeah people hit me up on Facebook I don't even know who they is but they know me I got you okay do you ever keep in touch with anybody from Athens I didn't keep in touch with my cousin with my cousin he come down for family reunion that's about it though but we never just keep in touch though okay is that Liam yeah okay let's do it down there just the name the the your sister living over and uh but you didn't know her and you didn't know him I mean not that I remember I mean I probably did know them but I don't know them like personally if I did because you know that one person I knew was my sister right and the people I went to school with I'm trying to think yeah because I never played basketball for school and I like that but I didn't you know that's the only person I knew though was my sister too I think I stayed the answer for like what a year or so right about a year now when you was there did you stay over there the whole time with your sister yeah um every now and then I will go to um and I said with my sister I was trying to spend the night at my girlfriend house but that never worked out okay who's your girlfriend Tanisha Goodwin Tanisha Goodwin yeah I'm not familiar with her you see your girlfriend from uh High School okay from like Clark Central or from where you came from from Putnam County okay Putnam County man like them people don't but they don't like me because they feel you know you know the situation yeah yeah when he was over there did you hear about the incident involving her but I heard about an incident but I didn't hear about you know like who it was okay I mean they ended up being somebody getting killed over there like he didn't tell me when you say he who you talking about I'm glad my cousin your cousin yeah okay I got you I guess but and that's something different than what the the lady at the school the counselor or whatever yeah like the council just came at me my name and I was like what you need my name for it I thought you know well I thought everybody would know everybody's name because she called me by my laugh now I guess she asked for my first name but it didn't have anything to do with where are you staying at over there at College Place is your sister ever say anything to you about it she never said nothing to them okay so just let him think she know about it but she said there was a bunch of cops in there I was gonna say you almost would have had to know about or know something serious would have happened told me because I was getting off to school and lemon told me I think I would have been off to school while I was in the neighborhood but lemon just told me a bunch of copies come was was over there okay yeah do you know if anybody ever talked to Liam I didn't say anything in there about his name either so yeah okay you wouldn't know where he's living at now would you I don't know just in Athens I know he's acting though his Liam his first name level of Russian okay we'll try to find him and give him a phone call you don't have a number for him or anything do you well I don't got a number now I did have my number but you know I lost some of my other phone but my phone is up there in front oh they don't want you to bring back here I will try to find if he's still in Athens he shouldn't be hard to find I thought what about kitorah she's still staying in no she stayed down here with my mama she stays down here okay she said we stay together now she moved from Africa actually and she said you were my mother now okay so was there anybody else that was living with y'all maybe that we didn't get a chance to talk to Ahmad Smith uh ex I don't know what they were but they um but he's in Africa oh so he's not he's not even though he's thinking Torah will know how to get in touch with him still maybe yeah and did you say it's a mod or a moss E.D Smith and my sister stayed with me and um Decatur she's still my mama that's what I said okay and you don't you don't I mean I know you said that Liam told you about a bunch of police being there but you didn't hear about any lady getting killed or anything I didn't hear about that part I actually did it everybody in the lady getting killed though but he didn't want to tell me though okay yeah but somebody told me by like two three years ago because I asked him who was it Alias because that's one of the friends but they don't stand acting no more they're staying on Union City he told me something happened over there it was a murder but I didn't know who it was but he said they changed the whole that whole area that's why I was like you know I don't even know the same spot he said they changed that that area became the projects and I was like that's what he told me no I still assigned yeah yeah oh okay you feel like the projects like didn't took over there yeah yeah how why would he tell you about that a couple of years ago just kind of talking and passing or yeah we're talking about high school and stuff you know him and brother we were together talking about high school just reminiscing talking about what happened in you know Athens and school and the girls and all that stuff okay did y'all go to high school together yeah and what was his name you said Elias Hendrickson hillston um Athens though oh okay did he live over that area they stayed close by a few people stayed close by me it wasn't like right everybody driving about 10 minutes okay if you would take a minute and really think about what was going on back then and see if you remember I can't remember anything that might have been out in the ordinary that might be able to help us with this I don't know this is one black dude I told you to play ball with it was all sweaty smelling and we teasing we got into a fight because he was weird he just looked he like one of the people that just looked weird you know that I guess he was cool I guess but I don't know he just looked weird like he would you know somebody he's trying to throw me over the bridge when we got into a fight at the basketball court a little one yeah because he lost the game well yeah because he lost the game and you know we were teasing him because he was smelling man he smelled real bad I know he had a white girlfriend but you know she was kind of huge he huge though she was you know big ball okay but yeah he was just going through it a little younger Dance artist right right that's the only thing we all do different things for me because this guy was like you know I think that was one of the first like fights somebody has to try to throw me over to put it that's right we all different people when we're younger and you know once you grow up a little bit where everybody's a little different you know we all do stupid stuff yeah I feel you I know what you're talking about um you think of anything else I mean anything else you know take a moment because I know it was a few years ago uh in regards to it might help us out people that might have been looking because Africa two of my sister for like two months when did you go there I had a lot going on huh when did you go there um okay and I ain't even quit Delta I just went there and just got stuck got caught up yeah and that was when you were living at College Place no oh this is after college play but I don't know what happened I mean I didn't stay there too long I said it for like I think a year almost a year you know but you know because I know I didn't because they wanted to push me back in high school they were there so I didn't like that so my sister was like just go get your GED and all that other stuff so you know okay I'm crazy I was in the tent trying to go to the 11th but they try to keep me back in the 10th and I ain't like that so I think I left out of high school today you know we just you know I told her I was gonna go I left because that case they flew me to well we got flu too because we had to meet everybody that was involved when we were younger with the whole situation with York where they flew us to uh Millersville Milledgeville Georgia to go back to court they like testify and stuff yeah go you know because that's what I did right there you think of anything else it might have been going on out there anybody else it happens well it said you know man I really I know I do too much announcements I didn't go out I wasn't even partying because I wasn't enrolled enough okay yeah and I'm gonna ask you the same as I ask everybody that we're going back and interviewing on this did you have anything to do with this incident out there yeah I mean I don't know okay that's what he said it was a murder I'm like what they got to do with me okay but yeah her name came up though we're talking with family and when we're looking at the names of people that were renting out there yeah that's that's where the connection is when you'll run one person's name it'll give us a list of possible family members and stuff in the area that's well just they only necessarily have to be in the area just family members in general yeah okay and so that's why we want to come talk to you and see if you said everyone family members so like when y'all ask people our name came up because because the building that my sister was staying in that's right okay okay I forgot how well my name came up I don't know she was the one that's why I was like but I guess that's all right I guess you got it that's the same thing my sister gonna ask how her name came up and I was like I don't know right yeah that's something we're just going by talking to everybody okay yeah but I you know I can't remember that I know because my niece was born that time and all that but I don't know nothing else though okay they have sisters it's so long ago I got your sister's daughter yes she's about 17 now she was like it had to be like 17 you see she by like still crawling she was like one when I stayed in that so I had to be like 17 years ago yeah it was a long time a long time usually with you and your mom and your sister indicator yeah my mom and grandmother my sister Decatur my mama probably woke up and left the land where she was standing in Edenton you know I just recently got out of um jail myself so I had to move back with her was that the meth charge that you're on probation for well now that's not why I'm on probation it's because I was you know like I was back in the day I was you know knocking on the doors selling movies CDs and all that stuff I got you so from what I learned how to hustle through my sister and boyfriend in Athens because when they were staying in the afternoon they was traveling selling movies and CDs and you know he told me you have to start off by you know just work out by like cutting grass or see if people need a grass cut takes trash out that's right so that's what I was doing then and then hope from there I went with them to go make some money selling movies because you know I guess when Dixie will start with nine they left Athens anyway so it was in Conyers so I was going with them and they just showed me how to make money selling movies even though I didn't know it was illegal until you know somebody said it's called pirating and all that other stuff but that's why I'm on probation I got you okay for pirate movies you know when I got locked up this time let's cut my hair brakes and I don't know why the police are stopped me but it's because my headlights that's why he stopped me and he seen some and it wasn't even mine though what was in the car though you know I just you know the you know I just took the blame for it because I don't know who left it in the car so I got you yeah yeah I just misunderstanding some reason I thought that's what you were on probation for but it's not it's just a movie thing yeah it was the movie thing that's why when the judging them they're like they locked you up for this you know are you selling movies back in Athens when was it lamb that showed you how to do it no Lebanon was selling oils and into that movie but they were doing it I didn't know they would do it until we moved to college but he was just telling me how to do it you know but I knew I knew a dude I didn't know who said the movies he was just saying audience and incense and soap and stuff like that but I didn't know I knew that part was somewhat you know all right because I think so you gotta have penalize I think they had the pedal license though yeah I'm not familiar with how all that works okay that's probably a little different from County to County yeah getting permits and stuff and then um yeah that's what I got in trouble for certain movies you know I never didn't know serious crime that caused me to go get locked up for you know what I'm saying so okay that's it and I was shocked myself because I mean police pulled me over before seeing you know like DVDs in the car because they sell them you know at little flea markets and stuff yo I don't really think I'm afraid because the way the land was you know you just like you know I didn't even get no like like the way that land was you you know I didn't know the laws and stuff when I got out of that you know that caught my state when I got old enough to know that you know I won't be here this stuff wasn't right you know so I didn't know nothing about that you know you know so I was I didn't even know smoking weed with me because it was smoking on the land they need yeah so you know stuff I didn't know I had to learn that I grew you know it probably won't be but probably won't be illegal much longer seems like everybody's Colorado passing the law saying it's legal so yeah it'll eventually get down here and then I'm um um when you get stopped but you get a um ticket for it um you know I don't I don't know I thought he called me here for well he did give me a drug test yeah okay I passed every time I told them I don't I'm not you know try again I'll do it in reference to this female right here would there be any reason why you would go in her apartment for anything in her apartment no he's trying to take trash out if I did but I was just going to my apartment okay it's basically breaking nobody apartment I won't know nothing about that part okay and then well I said there's seen some Minds in her apartment well we're looking at that possibility I was curious if maybe that would be any reason for you to be in her apartment I mean I've seen a lot of females out there though I never had intercourse with another homosexual contact with the shook a head or something but I don't know who was her or whoever you know I don't remember though besides like I took a few trashes out I don't know the names of people though okay that's about it okay well she lived around the pool area where the swimming pool was I don't know I don't remember okay I don't know where I went to to take trash out I know I should go to the basketball court all the time I don't remember where that's at okay that's right over there beside where your building is where your sister was at yeah right there at the end building but I don't know I probably did take the trash out took a few Trashies out she probably tipped me too by like five dollars but you know that was about it if somebody did I know I got more than like five but it was a little money though I ain't no phone or nothing so it's a little money I got you yeah gotta do what you gotta do yeah I had no kids you know help with your little snacks I wanted to buy and stuff yeah do you have any kids now yeah I got a um a five or three one on the way and uh seven Mafia congratulations yeah congratulations trying to work two jobs now doing it after I leave here okay mattress firm mattress firm and there's a temp agency job I work for labor staff and they send you everywhere I was at the Marriott Marquis and I was over at the Geographics Warehouse yeah if I went to any apartment because um because of that though if you know that's why my My name got brought up I don't know but I know I won't do nothing I don't nobody though I didn't know nothing about it especially she had a husband I won't know because you know I wasn't paying attention so I'm a little confused because I'm meeting you you seem like a really nice guy of course you haven't been in a lot of trouble you seem very smart of course you went through a lot you know with a younger age and uh just confused on matching this up and you know as we talk about this and go through this when you know think about it I want you to be honest with us okay um and you don't know her I don't know I never knews like I said I only you know knock on the door to treasure I don't like know it personally I don't even know her at all if I didn't know anybody if I shook their hands or whatever it's because I'm taking trash out I really don't know so you just knock on somebody's door and say hey what would you what would you say what would you do I would say the under your trash checking out you know I'm trying to make a little money you know I've got a job whatever and do they'll look for something for me to do take trash out you know Nissan moved that's about it that's what I'm saying how are you when they bring the trash to you at the door and you just take off and go throw it away for him but if it's heavy I would get it you know myself like a few incidents older women I would go get it like don't worry about I'll go get it that's what I remember myself doing in all the situations I would go get it so they won't get their hands dirty with apartment complex is having a maintenance crew and they do most of the work what kind of work would you do if they had yeah yeah well I mean you know at apartments you know they got maintenance folks that come and fix stuff so in most times so you didn't do any work on it I didn't know nothing about no maintenance okay I just took trash out like somebody with a grass cut you know in other neighborhoods I would you know see if you know and cut their grass I have a lawnmower but they would have one they just won't have the time to do it so I would do it but you wouldn't need 20 electrical work or sheetrock work or Plumbing or nothing like that you were just taking the trash out then because you're young no I've never did no electrical work on that she rocked no Plumbing did you go get things for anybody groceries anything like that no oh I don't know well we're trying I'm we're just trying to understand I mean this is like Salter said I mean this is uh I mean you seem like a squared away guy you got some family coming um you got some family here it sounds like you know you're living with your sister then you're living with her now you know it sounds like I live with my mama okay I thought your sister was living yeah she did too but when I'm over there she was there already oh I got you but I didn't even know they came back from Africa I guess my thing is it sounds like they care about you and it sounds like y'all got a great relationship you care about them they care about I guess because my mother might feel some kind of work was what happened because she never believed me when I told her she slapping but but that's not why I'm living with them now I'm living with them now because you know I have no choice I lost the apartment that I had that I was trying to say anyway they care enough about you tell a lot you live there yeah you care enough about them to ask you know so I guess we're just trying to figure out you know obviously this lady was killed you know uh we're trying to figure out exactly what the circumstances were surrounding her death you know was this something that was accidental uh was this something that was done on purpose was it somebody that might have been stalking her and done this or is this I don't know I mean I mean I wouldn't know oh you know I don't I wouldn't know and then that's what we were trying to figure out if it was a reason why for you to be in her apartment for anything all right take out the trash or so probably because something happened and you know you know somebody help me out I dig into a fight one day and somebody help me out I don't know who it was you know he tried you know you know I was Bloody up bad but you know dropped over a little clip but that's about it okay that's the guy with the basketball yeah okay so you wouldn't go to your house to get some help no I was walking and you know somebody who like you know I was bleeding and you know like my eye was like trying to see and like gave me some tissues you know like but that's about it but I don't remember you know exactly what happened who did it but I know I got into a fight a few people you know was like helping me out you know he tried to throw me over the cliff and I was like you know my day all that was you know I heard okay nobody I never just picking nobody an apartment and fired nobody knows what okay I know it's not funny but I don't know that's right it's a little nervous maybe man it'd just be like well yeah it does but it was a long time ago I don't even know how to go that I had sex wouldn't happen I don't y'all I don't know what happened to her last second do you have sex with her no I don't know I had sex with a white girl that happened though but I don't know sure wasn't her though she was in high school at all I don't know her name but I couldn't even have sex with my girlfriend she was still a virgin okay forget about it so once you say my well my four friends or something was in my apartment yeah we got we got some information that that you were in her apartment so we're trying to figure out exactly what the connection is there that day yeah I mean if I was I wasn't I mean I don't know I probably did something work for her but I just wasn't I know I didn't kill nobody though I know that's for a fact yeah accident or something like that it's something different I mean that's almost got me confused because I mean you seem like a really sharp guy you nice guy smart guy I mean so I'm just trying to was there an accident but something like that well I guess what I'm trying to say just be honest with us I mean you know what I'm saying that was an accident and maybe a fight something let us know that or maybe you went there and she was already deceased and you know maybe you're like you know I ain't saying nothing about it because I don't want to be connected to it anyway I don't know that's what we're trying to we're trying to make the connection of why nothing I don't know nothing about what happened with her to be honest with you like I didn't do some work I don't know if it was for her if I didn't work for a lot of people I probably did go in my house without him breaking nothing I didn't kill nobody you know I didn't do none of that he said it was an accident I don't know there was no accident it was no accident I walked in the house but I wanted to walk in nobody house and break nobody house like I was not when you was taking uh come and get trash for individuals and and and and when you say trash I think it like something that's in a trash bag and that you would throw in a dumpster is that what you're talking about when you talk about trash yeah like they got a lot of people had trash on their porch a lot of people had you know trash you know and I did not see you know like she didn't need trash taken up and half time they did how about any other items besides like trash in the trash can that they might want to get rid of or something like that I probably just throw out some beds brooms old groom you know stuff down just on the porch okay I never just throw out a little I just never walk in the way I didn't kill nobody though I ain't never did that in my life I ain't never shot nobody will never see nobody what about a vacuum cleaner or anything like that you ever throw something like that on my way like um I did throw away like a few vacuum cleaning old beds but um that's about it nothing like no I never cleaned nobody's house so there's no family electrical work though no not that I know of well I never did I was 16 I didn't know them but I didn't know no clue none of that if I'm trying to figure out like what is this well well you talking about the murder but the lady but I'm like I don't even remember but if I did throw out a trash or old stuff then I probably did but I don't you know I would never kill nobody though would you have gone like when you're getting trashed like that would you get it just from the kitchen sometime from the kitchen sometimes we trash on the porch you know that's about it okay in the kitchen the porch and that's it because there's no not the bedroom or anything the bedroom yeah if you didn't know her would there be a reason for you to go back in the bedroom no it wouldn't be unless she needed something have you taken out the bedroom but other than that it wouldn't be like a bed or something old bad but it won't be enough for me to check out the bedroom unless they needed something yeah yeah I'm gonna take about a few old beds you know like to vacuum broke down vacuum roll vacuum stuffed up on the porch trash but that's what I did we feel confident that [ __ ] huh as I say we feel confident that [ __ ] wasn't a bed or anything like that that she had taken out of her I didn't say she did I just said you know people you know but I won't be I mean if I was in somebody's bedroom I wouldn't just be snooping around nobody I'm taking out a try you know being somebody's bedroom well if I did go to my bedroom if I you know I was looking for that person that individual feel like they're in the bathroom but I wasn't in nobody bedroom just snooping around because I help people and you know got to know Folk I don't know if it was hard or not but you know she would look familiar a lot of people don't look familiar but you know I just won't be nobody but I'm doing that crazy so if you were to go in and just look forward maybe they didn't answer the door no no but they answered the door and you leave and shall be right with you and she'll point to the trash the person I don't know you know it'd be a she sometimes he he like you know fat guy like yeah you know but you know it won't just be like I just walked into somebody's house because you know then open the door now okay I'm mad and if it maybe you built that type of relationship with them I know a few people I build a relationship with though but I just you know like I said I know people I mean I don't know her from with the picture she don't look familiar I might I might not but I don't you know I know I didn't kill nobody though if you look you know I don't even I don't even did that then she had a husband if you did he said that she the guy named it up and out you know I think I've seen him something before though but I don't I remember you look familiar but you know to say people look the same so who knows that's all y'all like you know I was helping people a lot though but I wasn't just all in a bedroom and all that stuff I don't even know where she was at you know I'll tell you Abbas I think I think you've been waiting on this day for quite a few years for somebody to come talk to you about this do you think so I do why is it up well I just think that uh you know what was it 17 years ago and you know this is an incident that happened out there and I think I did it we do believe you had something to do with it why was that well we're trying because we're trying to figure out exactly what the connection of how long have you been in there that's right you've been in the house and being in the bedroom part and I mean if my sister I mean I always help people out I wasn't just in their bedroom like what I'm no I didn't kill nobody though and I guess we'll just want to talk with you I mean we want to understand what happened because you know when we look at you and when we you see what was going on with you back then I wasn't familiar with the Putnam County thing but just looking at your record I mean you didn't have any rest on it didn't look like you got arrested the first time until maybe 2009. so I mean that tells me right there that you know you're not out here breaking into cars you're not out here breaking into houses and it sounds like listening to you it sounds like you actually were doing what you were you know doing the best you could you were going to school you were working at Winn-Dixie uh you were you know just doing side jobs whatever you could do to stay out of trouble and that's usually how you stay out of trouble is when you know you got you know other things as occupying your time um but we're trying to find out what the connection is as to why why this information that we got will bring us out here to talk to you why am I you're saying I was in her room we we know that you were in there and so that's what we're trying to figure out we're trying to figure out what the connection is is it something to wear maybe you were with somebody else and maybe you didn't do anything is it something to wear I hope people move stuff out the room but but I don't know I didn't do nothing though I help people move you know I don't know if it was her or not but I have a few white people on doing that because it was I think it was a majority like a diverse neighborhood it was only like a few blacks yeah only half the only black person I've seen was that dude I don't think this has anything to do with black or white I mean I don't think that I think this is um I think this could be several things uh this could be maybe somebody being surprised when somebody um maybe somebody coming in a house and maybe looking to do some work for somebody maybe the doors open and you step in there to holler at them and say hey is somebody here and then maybe somebody getting startled or something I don't know that's what we're trying to that's what we're trying to figure out what the connections it'll be during the daytime I won't deal with nobody you know you know so some doors was just wide open like just wide open and I'll holler and they'll be like back here but that's about it but I never just like broken away glass or picked the lock when I can get in the lighthouse to I don't know what might be you know motive to be murdering somebody well yeah and that's another thing you know we're trying to trying to look at years what would it motive because just based on your information we've gotten from you and the information with your your you know as far as your arrest record doesn't say that you're a bad guy yeah I love that I would I mean if I helped her I probably helped her but I won't murder the lady or her husband oh another one we're not really in her husband imagine this neighborhood I would be staying in that's why it might have been what what softwars were saying here that's why it could have might have been an accident or maybe this is something where you came in and you found her and you're like whoa you know you didn't maybe you didn't have nothing to do with her her actually dying but maybe you know the door was open you came in there and you you just for whatever reason looking for work and you see you're in there and then you're like oh and then you know you didn't get the hell out there I mean that would scare anybody and I mean a time how old were you 16 16 okay at the time six imagine a 16 year old kid seeing something like yeah yeah I mean that would scare a grown man see no dead body apartment I mean I want a few bedrooms like you know gave me water some people even like that I want to drink but I didn't drink but you know just I guess you know I met a few neighbors out upstairs just getting drunk all the time you know white girl you know you know I'm you know I don't know if I wasn't up baby my damn sure you know she was alive like she wouldn't you know she wasn't laying there you know if I if I also but um as far as me learning her and her husband you know I'm small I'm young you know you know you know I didn't do it but as far as like me helping people in the house if I was helping people in their houses though it might have been her it might have been you know it wasn't just you know I didn't even like I wouldn't even like I said I had no motive to be murdered nobody we're gonna have to find out what the connection is okay I probably did help her work that's why you know that's about it foreign you know that's not my I never you know you don't look like a murderer too yeah you don't talk like someone that would murder somebody and you know not many uh I can't say I've met many 16 year olds that are murderers you know what I'm saying it's just not not enough going on in their life at the time not saying there aren't any but you know as a general rule that's not the case okay but there's something more and I know I hear you saying you know I didn't do it or I didn't murder her and I understand where you're coming from and saying that but what we've got we we need to know why the evidence that we have pointing at you is where it's at because I mean what you're telling me is just not it's not matching up what the scene says okay and I'm not man I'll I'll tell you I guess you know back in August I guess when you went on probation or parole that they took a DNA sample from you does that sound right I don't know what they did yet probably I know they took DNA stamboo here okay and that might have been is that about when you went on uh got in parole was here in August or whatever no I got it on probation um June July October October this month that's when okay they took DNA set okay well whatever it was they took it they entered into a system all right and when they entered into the system that's one of the reasons why we're here talking with you is because your DNA matched up some evidence that we've got okay and it's not like just some uh random piece sitting off somewhere you familiar with what DNA is like blood sample that's why it can be blood sample it can be skin like if you touch something skin cells come off we have a little bit of spit gets on somebody or some sweat gets on somebody or from hair falling out all that can be DNA okay okay and so that's why we're trying to figure out what your connection to this lady is and why your DNA is connected to her because you know it's one thing to have a set of a little bit of DNA over here but it will be another thing to have your DNA and her DNA mixed together you know what I'm saying like maybe like maybe she had it was bleeding a little bit or maybe uh something was going on with her and then some of your DNA got mixed in with her DNA you know they've got the ability now in 2017. okay that's what we're trying to figure out I know I mean I never had sex with nobody and asked well I did I probably did an apartment but I don't remember having sex with her I had an older lady I would talk to but she I don't think that was her though I don't believe so if it was I probably did but I never shouldn't killed nobody or her and her husband I know a lady was always um you know like real nice one to always flirt but you know thinking we did I think we did something but I don't remember I told my sister about some older cougar but you know she ain't believe me but that you know only way my Dean never get anybody is if my blood got on them because I was bleeding and somebody helped me you know but that's about it so would your blood get on them while they were bleeding also well my blood get on no idea was bleeding I don't know does that make sense like in 2002 the technology wasn't there to do things like that but in 2017 like if you were to take a uh if I were to take some Salter's blood or say a piece of Salter's hair and then spit in my hand and put that hair in it and then take a piece of your hair right here the lab would be able to take all that right there or a drop of your sweat or a drop of my sweat and a drop of Jerry sweat and put it all together the lab could take that right there and go there's DNA in there there's DNA of three profiles and then they would be able to take a sample of yours sample of his and the sample of mine and they'd be able to go those are the three samples that's in there or we could even take your probation officer and take a sample of his and submit four of them just for those three and they'd be able to go all right those are the three that's in there and it's not this guy here so that's what we're trying to figure out is why your DNA was mixed with hers she probably wasn't I mean she probably was the person who helped me but the I I mean that's why I was wondering who didn't happen but I don't know if it was her or not and my blood you know my DNA I know whoever helped me it didn't look like a I mean was it her I mean but I don't remember I know we got to know each other and it wasn't like an everyday thing and you know but I'm trying to see how my DNA well you know what don't necessarily have to be blood right it can be a drop of sweat I know I'm just trying to okay we probably and that's why I'm wondering if maybe when you you when you went in the house did you was she already dead and then that's why the 16 year old kid kicks in and goes oh hold on a minute I didn't know why I I'm distancing myself in this I don't know who done it but I know I didn't do it and maybe that's why that's what I'm trying to figure out because there is no doubt that you was there and there's no doubt that you was there while she was injured okay we know that yeah so now we're trying to figure out why what's going on what was going on with you I know to bring you in contact with her I know I told them something but you know he didn't believe me but you know that's when he told me the next day cops came I didn't know it would be you know that situation the person was dead or not but um well that's what we're trying to understand what'd you tell them I told them that when you know I went to take this random lady because I've seen her before but I just don't I mean but it was a house I was going to randomly every week take the trash out if I don't know the same house but when I came in the door was always open and you know I I not nobody answered but I came in you know it was just you know but I didn't kill her though well tell me why what happened was like I walked in and you know I just you know because I went to the room and I seen somebody there and I was you know yeah no I ran out but I wasn't I ran out but I'm I told latinum he can believe me though you've probably been thinking about this for 15 years ain't you yeah I was thinking like I wonder if you know but that's why I said a guy looked familiar because it said you know I've seen it on news I think I seen him on news but the girl I don't remember her face but I didn't see the face you know but I just you know you know you know like a lot of blood and stuff so tell me about going over there and what was going on and how you ended up during the daytime and you know like around 12 I don't remember exactly what time it was and I thought you know everything I settled because then he was like you know you know what I'm saying I mean I didn't know nobody because I told them I would talk to the police if they asked me you know but I didn't even tell the police because they already came by there but I definitely didn't do it though so you're sweating because it was during the summertime though but I didn't put my DNA on it I wouldn't looked up to see if she was breathing like I seen blood but I didn't know she could have been maybe highest got on there when you went over there to check on or something maybe I got on them the high is that how it got on her I don't know probably so but I was sweating though I was dirty you know playing basketball trying to make some extra money afterwards but um I just didn't think you know she was really deceased until my limbs until my cousin said so well tell me about coming over there and and how you knew her and why you showed the picture I was like it's a murder but I don't I didn't think it was a murder but I heard something about it but I didn't think it was like a murder I just thought she was injured or something that's right whatever might have been going on with her and I was scared I was nervous like hell I didn't know what to do anybody would have been because but um I definitely didn't care her husband he said that dude that you showed me too but I've seen him before but I think you know so how did you end up going over to the house what were you going to do for that day I was going to take out the trash just like had you taking it out before yeah I took out a lot of stuff before for her what are you taking out um I remember I took out the trash I took out um one time she wanted to check out old vacuum that's about it like uh like one of those Dust Buster type vacuums I don't remember I know they're like an old big old bathroom you know vacuum well I mean I just think a different vacuum that's all but I need to do with the handle the kind you got that you know that that sits on the floor when you got a little hose and the reason why I think I would come to me because they said that they found um I think a while back what I did what I should do now that you mentioned it that they you know that you know somebody was charged for the birth of a lady in on Broad Street I remember that part now that you I think that's why I seen that guy and that's why I said he looked familiar so when you go over there and and going over there to do some more work for her tell me about getting over there we would walk I didn't have no car but that's like every other week like every week every other week I did 45 a few people but I'm just interested in her okay because obviously I mean we we're getting to the point where we're explaining why your DNA is on yeah I told them that part and I figured he told the cops and he said man you're gonna come for you I said I didn't do nothing I just told you about it when did you go over there you said you went over there during the daytime I hope I've done the daytime it was during the daytime I'm gonna go over there during the night do you remember where that apartment was at that you went to I don't even remember that's why I like I forgot all about this well that's got to be a traumatic thing hey I don't think there's no way you can I don't I wouldn't even be able to forget about that I mean I walk into a house because from then on like a lot of other stuff had happened like you know anything is as big as this stuff like as big as this has happened in your life before no but I mean it had been some murders some people get hit by cars you know somebody got shot you know a lot of stuff okay um nursing bed okay so you go over to the house well I didn't think she was dead though that's why I really just didn't bother but I didn't even know that was the same lady but I would think she was dead though okay and I understand that but I'm trying to figure I I still gotta account for you being over there and what brought you over there and exactly what rooms you might have went in when you were there um so I needed so that I can explain why your DNA is in there okay and I was nervous I was sweating I would you know so you said when you got over the door was open what do you mean by open do you mean like the door was unlocked or do you mean like the door was swung open or were talking about a sliding glass door because I think there was a two ways to get into those apartments over there I think you have a front door and a back door or maybe a front door and a sliding door do you remember which door you came in it was over the front door it'll do a hallway I think okay is that hallway right yeah there's a hallway and then you know off the hallway you got different apartments off in the hallways it was a hallway okay and so when you get over there because I didn't you know because it was like crack open a little bit like I like I figured somebody was already home okay I didn't hear nothing but I you know I did walk in but I didn't hear nothing though that's what I kept going and going and going and gone and seen that okay and I said a few words you know what'd you say like hey hello it's me and I know I remember saying that Push the door open look and I got a real close look just to see if you know I seen I thought I seen you know I didn't know if it was real or not you know and where did what did you see and where was that at was that as soon as you opened the door was that in the kitchen the living room or was that back in the bedroom it was back in the bedroom I know because it was nobody I don't think it was nobody even there in the living room I didn't see the husband or nobody there okay and so you go back in the bedroom obviously you see her you're concerned I've seen the sliding door open too when I walked through the front door okay the door was open on the back door it looked like a back door but and I ran and told my cousin and he didn't believe me but you know well let's get to the part where you see the body in the bedroom and you go back there and you're checking on her what's going on back there what all do you see I don't remember what I see but I know I looked over just you know I touched it to you she was you know what did you touch her at I took like you know the shoulder part like you know kick the you know I ain't Cape hard but you know touch okay see you know but you know what I'm saying but it was it was it was like it was like it was blood it was blood though how was she when you when you when you saw her how was she laying length how was she laying I know like I was too late forward and I was closed I mean like laying on the floor laying on the bed she laying on the floor she had to be laying on the floor because I had I looked over and I don't remember no if it wasn't bad I don't remember it was bad or not and when you touched her you touched her on the shoulder you and then you kind of when you said you kind of a Monster yeah you know I was sitting there not to like you know like immediately like ran like you know when I realized that person wasn't moving and I just seemed like as I moved a little bit you know seeing like try to like move like like juggle real hard it just seemed like too much blood I guess what was she wearing I don't know what was she what I couldn't tell a shirt I think well think back because I can tell you that that image is burned in your head you'll never be able to forget that who could forget that a shirt in the panties I think yeah be happy to show the panties because it was in the laying on the bed I think she lived in the bed they ain't flat but I know I didn't do it though and I was never that day and that's why when the teacher called me from school that's why I was like Who you calling me for I thought you were talking about that incident but I guess it didn't go from there I figured you know okay they probably you know let them probably called them told me what happened whatever where exactly did you tell Liam I just said I seen a um when I go to like when I went to this lady house to go see she wanted some trash and stuff moved out I got you know I went in a room and I seen he first he did the same thing y'all did we was doing all the room because I didn't hit another door cracked open and you know I just seen the dead body it looked like she was dead and I ran and I told him like what did he say I don't believe yeah I believe you don't know like that happen and I didn't think it would you know I ain't expected to see all that but I didn't even think this would come back because I thought you know that's why I mentioned that yeah the guy I'm like okay that's what I seen from the news one day do you remember what her name was I don't know my name I don't even think that was the only look like the same person and you said you went over there during the daytime [Music] tell me about going over there I'll tell you about going over there in the evening time when it was dark in the evening time I never went over there at the evening time when it was dark never went over there I don't know the time when you found her it might not have been dark and maybe just because it's been 15 17 years you forget basketball and I was sweating and all that real hard trying to make some money yeah but um I don't remember if it was eating a dark time I know like nudist like when the sun was like going down back then when that happened and I'm sure that was probably at the Forefront of your mind of course Liam probably didn't worry about it too much because he probably didn't believe you yeah did you ever look at any of the newspapers or anything out there look at the story followed anything like that no I seen the news though about the guys I never looked at a newspaper did you ever see the sketch of the person that they have I seen that picture but I know she's no no I'm talking about the sketch of the individual but you know somebody asked me no no no of the person that was seen coming out of her apartment at night time no well it's now that we have met you and if we take about 15 years off of you you look pretty close to the sketch that's why I was trying to figure out is there something else maybe he was over there at night time and you just got your times mixed up I didn't know we went over that night night time when it was real dark machine but I ran told them it may be something where lamb didn't believe and you say hey let me come show you you don't believe me you know what I'm saying nothing proves something like going and showing somebody I didn't do it but I don't remember let me telling them to come sure I left though but I remember going back there after I seen the cops you know come over there well tell me about that like I went back there just to see what was going on and they told me it was a murder but that was about it so you talked to the police I didn't talk to the police I didn't see any yellow strip and I was trying to figure out what happened but I didn't talk to nobody how did you figure out what was going on behind no no I'm trying to figure out what happened with the girl with the um the lady that she had said with murder but um you know but they didn't say nothing though but they just said it was a murder stayed back you know but I never went back to the apartment after that though at night time he said I left the apartment during the night time but a lot of problems I went to at night but I don't think it was hers though no this was her apartment ain't no doubt about that a lovely world it wasn't going to buy a night though I mean I did but it was like too dark you know six o'clock or seven o'clock you know I guess that would be considered nighttime during the summer time but those uh you know you used to basketball he was talking about taking um throwing trash away like the trash uh you know what people would want throwing away whether it's beds or whatnot and vacuum cleaners um what did you do with all that stuff did you ever sell any of this stuff no and nothing wrong with selling it because it's trash you know I'm saying somebody won't give you some money for it somebody won't give you some money not and I'm talking about in particular at a like a pawn shop or something okay I wouldn't know about that what what well I mean I'm just asking you you know since you're being honest with us and everything yeah not that you mentioned it yeah I want to sound like that okay what about maybe having somebody sell it for you maybe because you know you're being 16 and all maybe you wasn't quite old enough to sell it you know because like a pawn shop you know you got to be 18 in order to sell something you can't you can't do it as a juvenile I never sold nothing about the um pawn shop I mean I never sold nothing to the pawn shop I had none until like garbage you know like garbage garbage I got you okay so how many times you go back over to that apartment that was it after you saw her that day laying there yeah and I went back after the police game with everybody you know not after they came but what I did was there though but that was it though as far as um you know it hurt how did you know her I knew her I mean if it's the same lady that I was helping out you know taking drugs but she was all about the lady who's dead the one that you saw that you were in the bedroom you saw her did it was on her okay yeah how did you know her and how many how long had you known her of course I would know him that long but I remember um I don't think avocado I had a um I don't think it was her it couldn't have been her but um I had a favorite a lady but it was unheard of I don't think it was her but I knew him like you know I seen that I mean I didn't know her though like I really just didn't know I know her like that besides helping her and stuff and she got real like I got comfortable but you know but not like comfortable enough to where I be you know just all inviting myself in the house that just it was just weird that day you know it was just strange how many times did you help her before this though or is this like the first time you went to help her like two times you know how long I don't know before a week before probably like a week before you know it's like come back I might need you again but that's about it though but I never just know and so when you went back that's when you saw her or yeah but you'd only helped her one time before what did you help her with two times I had somebody else one time Chinese person old lady but her personally was like we talked about her that was just about like two times I really just didn't know her personally like that in fact I shouldn't even just walked in the apartment and just you know you know invited myself in when I seen the door crack because anything could have happened to me or you know but now that you mentioned it but that was just see I didn't know no better though but I did tell though I did tell my cousin how you feel now that you've shared you know I told him though so if we were to go back and talk with your sister and talk with Liam as uh would they share with us what you shared with them yeah but I told them you know yeah they would you think they might share something that maybe you told them a little bit more than just buying into there got into an argument with her no maybe she caught you in the house or something like that or maybe uh you walked in looking to get some help but then you know she was I don't know come out the bathroom and she you surprised her and she was surprised you was in there and you was trying to explain you're just looking for work but then she's hysterical and she ain't having none of that I'm out now no because like I told you if definitely was a body though I know she was a conscious knocked out bleeding real bad but wake up but not not happen though I appreciate you being honest about that about being in the apartment about finding her I did but I just didn't know you know that was the person like I said like I was the person and her husband I'm like oh I won't do nothing like that and let me ask you what what DNA do you think we have of yours I don't know from there it'd be anything that would cause you of some concern that has brought us to you that's why I mean I don't know it could be anything I don't know which I got anything such as spit spit here DNA I mean I don't know I don't know would it be any like semen anything like that I don't know what did you have sex with or anything I mean because I mean I don't know how to take with a leg but I don't think it was harder but but you would know if it was her or not I wouldn't know because I wouldn't though it has been a long time I don't know how to have sex with a high school how many people will be you know that can say they've had sex with a woman that was dead if you don't talk about that's died later yeah not many so I just think you'd remember that if you had something I got a friend of mine who got killed but I you know but we you know I didn't even have sex with her but I knew her personally though we grew up together but so I guess back to my question is what DNA do you think I don't know what they have my got sweat I might got bloody I might got um hair you know but I know it won't be semen though because you think we might have got all of that because of something that might have been going on in the room some type of struggle no some type of fight for me maybe just some kind of disagreement between you and her that's right no no because you'd have to I mean would it be fair to say and would you agree with me that if we got something like that that that's probably a little bit more going on than just you walking in the room and finding her on the floor and just touching her on the shoulder and say hey ma'am you okay no for your hair to be in a a place or you're sweating to be in a place uh I think it would be fair to say maybe a little bit more was going on than just you going in there and touching her that's why we're trying to figure out what all you might have done while you was in there I know I was sweating and stuff playing ball you know I might have been still you know like injured but I wasn't bleeding or nothing and no hair I don't even think I had it here at that time well I probably did have it here bro but hair can come from anything it can be a little knuckle here coming off you know but I don't you know I didn't you know none of that has happened like I promise you that I promise that wouldn't defending yourself [Music] I wasn't attacked by nobody so here's my thing man again I think you're a great guy I'm just me and sometimes good people make bad decisions it doesn't make them a bad person and I don't think you're a bad person at all but something happened and you know we're trying to give you an opportunity to tell us and get this off of your chest because I I truly believe you're a good person and I think you'll do everything it is where we started from into where we're now I know but I didn't live I was talking about you know this is what you've been living with this and we want to give you that opportunity again I do I think I think personally hey something happened there something bad happened and we want to give you that opportunity though because that's why I told you that I've seen the person because of the overwhelming evidence that we're getting from that room for me that's right that's why we're looking for an explanation because just you going out and finding her and touching her it's not fitting what the evidence is if this was 2002 it might be an argument for you but Technology's come so far that ain't the case okay so that's why we need we need to understand what happened is it something is it were you telling us part of what happened I don't think you're telling us all or what happened because we know okay well we wouldn't be here talking to you I didn't kill her or the husband that you showed me well we need to know what the argument was about maybe intentionally maybe your attention wasn't to kill her we didn't argue I didn't even go in there and see no I mean you know what I'm saying and told that nobody well that's not good at this okay because if it wasn't an argument and then that may that kind of tells us that this was maybe something where you were laying in wait for and this is what your intention was all along but we don't think that's the case because your record doesn't so that's the case the record says that you were in school you were working are you going I wasn't arguing with it it was nobody else there was something that happened and that's what we need to know we need to understand that because if not it's like you said uh I wasn't arguing whether I didn't do it there wasn't no fight like that but everything that says there was a fight like that and all the evidence says it was a fight involving you and her and so is it because she got surprised or is it because maybe you were laying there maybe y'all had some prior problem and you had a vendetta you wanted to settle with her no it wasn't no argument that's what we're trying to understand I promise you with no argument I won't you know I was 16 and we don't and we don't think that's the case but we got to hear that we got to know I mean just saying you wouldn't touch her I mean that's not going to work I mean but I've seen the move the showtime to see what was going on but she looked like out of it so I just like left well we're interested about your interaction with her before she was in that position because you had some interaction with her I I probably did happen on that day that's right before before she was injured you were having some interaction with her and we're trying to figure out what that was was it because y'all were argue maybe you weren't maybe nothing was going on but you was hanging out maybe she got accusatory towards you maybe she attacked you I don't know but that's what we need to understand from you oh it wasn't I'm trying to see no it wasn't it wasn't I know I was fighting I don't know if that's the same NATO I don't know if she's the one who helped me and you know got me you know all patched up gave me this stuff but you know but it definitely was no arguing with me no lady though because I really barely knew her I mean I don't even know her now but I know the lady who gave me all that stuff but she stayed in the complex and stuff that you know she wiped blood and stuff off with me and you know I have this will pass that okay that's what I'm talking about I mean well I understand well I understand something like that might have happened okay but not doing but what but what we that's right and then what we've got from the the apartment there doesn't support somebody rendering Aid to somebody doesn't support somebody trying to help somebody it doesn't support somebody maybe sitting in a chair and leaving something there that's not what it supports okay it supports some kind of altercation altercation confrontation some type of argument I don't know you know something happened and we know it was between you and we know it was hurt and so we need to understand was it something where you went over there with the intent of hurting her or is it something where just something got out of control I didn't do nothing that's what I'm trying to say I just seen it and I told my cousin that's about it because yeah I mean I feel last time I mean seemed like I I actually did it but I didn't do nothing I didn't show her my husband again you're not so are you a big bad Killer without trying to serial killer or something like that that we don't know about I mean but that's what the appears and we're trying to give you an opportunity to tell us what happened okay and and I feel like you want to I didn't I didn't do nothing but I didn't do nothing I only told my cousin what happened that's it everything feel like I'm a victim like I'm a suspect now we are looking at you know I didn't I didn't do it man I just like like because I'm telling you what happened and it seemed like y'all will leave me you know so now I want to believe you but the evidence shows that that's not true and I think because you just don't want to tell us I mean I I that's what I told you no there's more and and you know what happened between y'all and and the the the DNA that we have is no two ways about it that you were in a struggle with her and maybe you were attacked I want to believe that because getting to know you and seeing you man you're a good person I want to believe that but you're not telling me that and so by her maybe I don't know or maybe there was somebody else there you go to help you know just to take out the garden maybe she attacks you you had to defend yourself and it was just an accident because you hadn't went on and and hurt anybody else that's not the person you are at it's something bad happened that day and I believe it may have been an accident okay but I didn't I mean but nothing happened with me with her doing that yeah your DNA's there to show it did and that's what I'm trying to tell you look you're not a bad person you're you didn't go over to hurt nobody I believe that so I mean understand why I hope that was something well I just told you everything I know you do that you didn't know you know what happened I don't know what happened we're trying to help you give you an opportunity for what you're saying my mother right no no you're not on a wrist oh wait that's why you're not under arrest because we want to hear what you got to say we want to just want to give you an opportunity well it was in an accident I don't want to make nothing of it tells the truth I mean that's the truth I didn't do I mean I didn't have nothing to do with this lady because I can see I could see you trying to hustle a little bit make some money help yourself help your family and maybe you go over there I just have my sister well you had your sister that's family yeah motives to even kill the you know her and whoever else was there was not even I really don't like I'm really getting all confused about because the question is coming to memorize stuff there I'm trying to that's why we're trying to give you some of the benefit of the doubt because one you were 16. okay until you didn't have a motive that's why we're that's why we're thinking this is something accidental okay it's something that just got out of hand it's got a little a little bit overboard okay people that are young the front of their brain has not fully formed yet they make rash decisions and they a lot of times they'll do stuff a split second whereas now you're a little older you wouldn't do you wouldn't think about it you wouldn't make some of the same decisions at 33 that you make when you're 16. it's because your brain's formed yeah you're right and that's the same thing here I mean I know I didn't murder nobody though well like I didn't even get no fight only fight I got into was some God and me talking about his girl and him and all that stuff let's get past that because you were there in in something I was there but what I'm thinking is like you said you trying to do something good you're trying to go over to help somebody take the trash out you see the door I said you go in there and maybe maybe you know you there to help somebody maybe she attacks you and you gotta defend yourself and it just happened so quick I mean you see what I'm saying if that's the case you need to tell us that I mean that's not this is your opportunity that's not the case because I never I never like so you viciously murdered her for no reason I didn't murder nobody well but I'm trying I'm trying to ask you I'm trying to figure out how to murder somebody but then I mean you said I didn't murder no I asked you if you did no no you said you said you viciously like you yeah so is that what happened or was it an accident because we know you were there we know there was a confrontation that was live but it wasn't a conversation with me I mean I don't know what happened before she was already um like in that situation but I know afterwards I came I seen I tried to move you know Chief you know budgeting you know but I ran out like like ran up told them and you know you're like you lying you know what I'm saying but the cops came the next day and I thought he took you know he told them or something happened whatever but you know I was about to call but [ __ ] you know I was just tuned up I told them because he was older I figured he could deal with it better than I would because I wouldn't know what to tell him I thought they was gonna arrest me and stuff you know so I you know I know we're in the middle I mean my DNA was in her house or whatever but you know but trying to help them but she's been waiting on this day for 15 years I wasn't waiting because I figured y'all caught you know that they said that you know you've been waiting on this day for 15 years you can't something like that can't happen and you think that man that I'm done with it you know that's behind me that's part of my past that's part of my childhood my youth seeing that yeah it was and all the other stuff that happened but it was because when I see no news that you know the case was you know but they said that they got the guy for a murder lady but I figured that was that you know we're here talking to you okay we're not talking to somebody else or something you might have seen on the news we're here talking to you about her okay I'm just saying and we're trying to figure out exactly what it was that set this ball in motion that's what I told you you told us part of it but you hadn't told us all of it and especially the fact that we've got someone seeing someone that looks like me and just like you no no no no not in the neighborhood coming out of her apartment at night time okay I think I know I mean I wasn't this is a neighbor okay so we got that why would it be me but the problem is you say it could have been anybody but the problem is is anybody else didn't go in there and find her anybody else ain't seen her anybody else's hold on a minute anybody else's DNA ain't all over her bedroom you see what I'm saying so that's why it can't be anybody else we're talking to the right guy we want to know what happened we want to know and I don't know if it's that same person but I did hope I started off helping her but it wasn't you know but I definitely going there fighting and murdered nobody though did she attacked you then that's what I'm just trying to understand no if I said I had an affair with somebody cool with me it was a white lady but I don't think it was her though I mean it might have been but it was long ago but I never got attacked by nobody in the apartment that's what I'm trying to say and I never walked in and killed nobody viciously like that'd be insane I know you know I know you know yeah I'm saying because I didn't say I see either but I told her look at the picture again to see if that's the woman you were you were sleeping with that's one is that the cougar you talking about would that help it probably was I mean I don't know because I've I've been making out of the guy until you said um until he mentioned someone I remember seeing him on news I don't know if that was her husband or boyfriend or what I don't know nothing I just know you know you know when I did have an affair it wasn't like an everyday thing it was like you know was it hurt I'm not sure I'm not sure it probably was but I damn sure to murder nobody though she was a pretty um young lady though you know that if he was defending yourself it ain't murder right do you know that you know you're entitled to defend yourself in the state of Georgia okay he leaves it might bring in your house that's right well or you only have to be in a house you can be on the sidewalk or the street out there and somebody if somebody attacks you you got the right to defend yourself okay but I didn't well I mean I guess I didn't want you to be hung up on if I did anything it was illegal because that ain't necessarily the case Okay because if somebody's defending themselves we'll go find some to come here with an arrest warrant literally that's like what we said we'd be honest with you had sex with a cool I don't know if it was her or not it was a few several occasions but you know at that time the cougar did get like you know like grippy but we never like fought another like you know how girls hold on to you when you real tight you know but you know it was like so you saying that might be why some of your DNA might be in her fingernails I've asked you the picture again because I don't know if that would hurt I don't even remember well now this picture is a a a driver's license picture so keep that in mind because you know you look at some people's driver's license picture it ain't quite this you know it's just a little different I don't know it might have been a hurdle but I don't I'm not sure I know I remember it was 16. I remember half I know two women I was having second abroad on Broadway but I damn sure um I remember seeing his place I knew so it might have been her though well that's what we're trying I mean that's what we're trying to figure out that's probably why by then it was an apartment but I mean but it was late I did help well not only in the apartment but on her yeah that's part of it too you know what I'm saying and I told them but I didn't tell them I didn't want to tell them exactly you know the details of you know who the person was but you know if I did but it was you know I did tell them though I don't believe me Robert's going back okay but I didn't dance wouldn't do it though well I'd like to move past that about you not doing it okay I would like to understand why what happened that's what I told you that's what I do you know you know sometimes the door will be open I would knock and walk in a lady would say come in I don't know but that but I don't look like it might be her but a lot of people I dealt with man well this is the lady that was in the apartment that you saw okay whether or not it's a lady who was having sex with or not it looked familiar but she looked pretty you know but she was young that's how but but regardless of all that okay maybe that was a reason why he was in the apartment now that could be a possibility I've seen her laying down well I mean maybe he was in the apartment having some sex and maybe something didn't go the way it was supposed to go I mean I don't know I wasn't there the only people that was there was you and her I wasn't like that I mean could it have been something different than that no okay you know like because if I'm saying something I'm wrong correct me yeah I mean okay I mean thank you so much that was that that's it it was just you know I've seen it and I got nervous the person didn't even look the same no more that was it now my mama would drive thank you no drink if you need to a little thirsty myself [Music] ah that was it I mean does that mean I mean you know let my app you know tell my sister you know call whatever but you know yeah we'll probably need that because we're gonna need to talk to them I don't got a number on me but I don't want to get too far away from where we're at okay I mean I want to I want to stay focused on you being in the apartment and what might have been going on in that apartment because we know something was going on but I know I was that was it helping they were like it's a second Affair I had in um West College Street apartment though but we but we also got the problem with you being seen leaving that apartment at night at night time I don't know I probably did leave a park that night but I don't I don't think it was that same day or if it was would it have been a couple of days prior to I don't know you asked me questions like well if I'm going too fast tell me hold on let me think about a question that I probably remember no more I wanted it live say something but we don't want you to lie we want you yeah we want you to be totally honest with us okay because we're not looking to hang anything on anybody we're not looking to pin anything on anybody we're following where the evidence goes and the evidence has taken us to you that's right I probably did have um NFL what's up man but I know you know no no I didn't murder nobody though and again you know defending yourself ain't murder I know I mean do you know that or do you think I'm just saying that I know that okay all right as long as you know that because some people don't believe that some people think you kill somebody then that's a crime yeah because I've seen people who defend themselves they still get go to jail and stuff though well it depends on the circumstances yeah okay because every circumstance is different and I guarantee you this circumstance is different too there's something that was going on that we're trying to understand but the only person that can help us understand that is you I know if I told you everything that I I honestly told you everything that I that I you know except the part about how she ended up dating I told I don't know how that part happened I don't know who was in that part of the firework I mean because I mean I don't know you know out of that same letter and I know a few you know people you know talking about a cougar but I don't know if you know that was her or not but she really don't look I mean she looked like her but the cougar part of it I mean because if you were having sex with her okay if you weren't having sex with her that's okay too we understand that maybe you're having sex with some women out there at Broad Street and there ain't no crying again we're trying to I don't even remember I know like like I told him earliest girls in high school had to say well I don't even know their name I don't even know how they look now often I somebody showed me a picture of them I won't even remember we're trying to figure out how this escalated to the point that she ended up dead I mean that's why and we think you can help us with that I'll help you as much as I could that's what I just told you but well if you you being honest about that yeah if you saying you're gonna help us as much as you can yeah and you're gonna be honest about it and my next question is you just tell me how it happened so you really think I did it I do and whether or not you intentionally did it I don't think that's the case because of the physical evidence we got physical evidence says that you were in that bedroom physical evidence says you were in some kind of altercation would if I was in the bedroom I probably was it probably was a girl I was having to feel but I never was in Alteration with no food that's that's what we're trying to figure out we just don't understand that part of it okay and I don't think it's no secret because we it brought us to you yeah but I didn't so that's what we're trying to figure out with somebody else there with you I mean nobody okay and the reason why I asked that because we got your DNA and we got her body all right and we got DNA in places that support her being in some type of altercation with somebody and that DNA we got matches you why would it be me though because because it's your DNA I don't know if you had sex with or not if you did have sex with and that got out of control well you see you keep saying out of control like we got I didn't well when I say out of control I say that because I don't think you're uh someone that goes out here and kills somebody just to be killing somebody or goes out here and harms somebody just to be harming somebody or goes out here and even gets in an argument with somebody just to get in an argument with somebody you don't strike me as that type of person so when I say that that's what I'm talking about not that not that you went over there to do that just that something happened and the end result is her being on the floor deceased okay I didn't do nothing how many did it and I'm trying to see what you get what you want me to say I want you to be honest with us and I think if you and I think if you be honest with us you're going to tell us exactly what happened and what happened is going to be how she ended up dead I didn't kill no no name in an apartment that's I mean that's my honesty I mean I did it I promise you that I mean I need I mean am I the rest no I told you not under arrest if you was under arrest we were to come here and launch you up okay we just it's like what we said we want your side of it because this is like can you see why we feel that way I can see why okay so it's not unreasonable for us to be saying that if I told you what I did but I know I should have probably came and told the police but you know I was is it fair to say that when the police talk to people they lie yeah they try to make you confess to certain stuff but I think but well I guess what I'm saying is you can understand where we got all this physical evidence that's brought us to you when we first talk about it but that can mean anything though I mean I mean I probably had sex with a day before but I don't know if that's the same person though that's what I'm trying to get y'all to understand uh and I understand that but then we got other issues though other than this physical evidence we gotta we got a witness that sees you coming out of that house at night time well that by itself don't mean anything really don't mean nothing if but when you put it with everything else we got a another I mean like I could have had a relationships late which I'm thinking it probably is but probably not but why would I be in the struggle you know what evidence would show that she was in a struggle with Miro I ain't got did she cut me did she scratch me like that that's what we want to understand that that that's maybe maybe she didn't catch you but maybe you accidentally got cut somehow or maybe she cut you maybe you're defending yourself I mean that's why we were somebody scratching my back because when they were doing it that's about it I was bleeding a little bit but that's not no cut or no you know no major situation though but I had you know my other baby mama when we was [ __ ] she scratched the heck out my back and I was you know like leaving but that was a situation so you're saying your blood might have been from having sex with her but you ain't sure that's the woman you was having sex with yeah I mean I mean honestly but I mean because it's been a long time they're coming to me like 20 years 17 years later that's right I really really I'm like mind-bob because I thought all this was like I'm like solved because I think I seen that guy face right here on the news saying that he was the murder for a lady in West Central that's the same lady then I'm trying to figure out why I'm you know let me just tell you that no one's ever been arrested on this it's been an unsolved case until they took your DNA and we were we knew from the physical evidence that whoever because we're just trying to be honest with you we knew for a fact that we've had this profile on record for the last 15 years okay and we knew that if we ever got a DNA hit through CODIS which is the the National Database that that is going to leave that's going to lead to the person responsible for now wasn't an accident I don't know when there okay was it the self-defense I don't know I wasn't there was it a cold-blooded murderer I am here and I'm meeting you and I think I do believe you want to tell us what happened and I don't believe you're a cold-blooded murderer but I haven't I told y'all what happened though I mean could that DNA I mean I did [ __ ] but I mean or she probably describing why we was [ __ ] because I did you know it was funny somebody and I got like you know she had some short little but I don't I don't believe that was harder and you know that's you know my DNA came up because of that it probably was her but I don't remember though where you're in a fight for your life or not you would remember that yeah I remember like I told you when the dude trying to throw me over the cliff so it wasn't self-defense are you telling me I'm telling you that it wasn't done no self-defense about it I mean I didn't murder it wasn't self-defense I didn't have to it wasn't I was in no altercation with it with her or you know whoever else would you know if I live with nobody ever but I wasn't in no complication with with her though or a husband or whatever but all that dude that you're saying even though he probably you know he wasn't there but I never fought him or did none of that I didn't even know him and he didn't see him until I seen the news but you do look familiar though I've seen him a few times but he looked familiar I don't know he probably be somebody else anybody looked the same but I mean it wasn't me though so let me just so I'm right just so I just want to correct on this you saying you made a man not known her you may or may not have taken the garbage out I paid but I just don't remember though I don't want to give an answer yeah [Music] over here to hear what they say if you see her dead yeah we're through with that you saw her body um it was the same lady I had sex with though so that number tell them I didn't want to tell him I had sex with her and you know he think I probably had something to do with it you know but I do remember you know not wanting to tell him that part but but if that's the same person you know that this is you know that I know that's the body I saw was in there and I touched her and you know that's the same person I was having wait that's why I was comfortable enough to walk in the house when I seen the crap but I wasn't sure if the husband or whoever how long had y'all been having sex like a couple occasions but it wasn't like no violent sex with I'm defending myself though nothing weird that's why I said she looked familiar she was real you know if you will she all came outside while we was like at the pool area you know I don't know because they don't even look alike that's how I met her though at this swimming pool you know how long before you met her when you found her dead month two months six months ago see that part I don't remember you don't remember okay I believe you how long after you met until y'all started having sex like same day no I'm talking about time frame I mean did you have to build up a relationship would you have to probably like the second time I've seen her I I took the trash out one time because I was you know trash and stuff on she had always when she seen me she had asked me to help her do stuff but that's about it but that's why when you said my DNA ain't being a player like she realized no no no no no no was she real flirty because the pool's right there we were flirted um some few guys over there that I remember you know them talking saying that you know they had a field but you know from white guys so the older than me though they were just talking looking so he says she's a little aggressive having sex yeah like when I said pension and you know scratch and stuff like that but it wasn't just no cut in the bruising nobody whipping stuff like that do you remember who the lady was that might have helped you when you was bruised up I remember all the black nerding dude that got into an altercation he had long gone he looked like silver back if yeah I mean try to throw me off the cliff but you don't think it was her you think anything with her but I mean I don't I don't think it would hurt her at all um but you know you know what time it is here 11 o'clock hey item okay um how long how much longer well you know what I'd say as long as it takes but you know it's up to you but I really really wanted to give you this opportunity and I didn't do nothing you know I mean I just I want to go to work because I didn't or if I got to get a lawyer let me know that's up to you yeah you only need a lawyer if you've done something wrong yeah I know but yeah you you saying I did something wrong we believe he did um we do have a I got an address for me right one thing we do need to do is we got a search warrant for you DNA okay so we're going to execute that he got that okay well we're gonna get another one because that way we can confirm it that way we want to make sure there ain't no mistake because you telling us all this mistake though well I mean we don't believe it's a mistake but we still want to be thorough I'm telling you all this but I mean I would expect y'all to be a job that's right I think everybody wants to do our job you know that you know I mean something different that's what I'm saying something different that's what we're trying to just give you every chance you know I and we'll make sure we gave you that opportunity because I don't want to cheat you you know I'm saying it was something different that's all that's all I gotta get a lawyer first before I live before what you're not under arrest oh okay no I mean that's up to you I mean you have the right to any to talk about anything you want that's up to you so I got the right to do this no no this search warrant is signed by a judge you got to give us this yeah I got my DNA from him oh that's your copy yeah you're taking that with you or you can throw it away if you want to that's up to you but it's your copy so that's because my DNA was dead that's saying it with me so what we got along with everything else yeah yeah I didn't I've never even been murdered I seen murders you know I wasn't you always wanted to snitch your tail I saw the thought she told her she ain't never seen a dead body before I said I see murder but prior to that after that happened that's what I want you to do right here you ever done this before okay I don't know how they got your DNA the first time that's right take it in there and swab it and rotate it around press your cheek out and do it that's not what I've been in trouble with my probation officers you know I never thought about this I thought all this was done and over with I never think it would come back and question me about it hit me for murder wow yeah so here Liberty explain what's gonna happen with that and we're gonna take that over to the gbi crime lab okay and I mean I say I got my DNA already didn't uh let me explain how this work I'm trying to explain to you so we had a hit from a DNA swab that your probation officer took that matches um the Killer's DNA okay okay well so yeah so what we have to do then is we have to get what you wouldn't call controlled Suave which is what he just did we got a circle and presented our evidence to his judge they signed the warrant and now we're taking that so they can do a confirmation to confirm that that's the DNA that will send you in and yes that's what matches what's at our scene okay but we know that's going back yeah because and then from there we'll go we'll look at it again and between now and then now if you got something you need to say to us we'll make sure you have uh our cars leave your car but you know I just understand that the clock is ticking now I know and you ever heard that saying the early bird gets the worm you see what I'm saying I mean you got to be honest with us and tell us what happened over there I'm telling you if I had sex with it well maybe more than that there's there's more than that you know what it is I don't know what it is we're following the evidence and the evidence has led us to you okay I mean we got somebody we got your DNA you got somebody you got somebody that that we got a drawing that was made in 2002 by a gbi sketch artist from a witness and that and now that I look at you and I take a couple of years off of you looks just like you I wish I'd have brought it with me so I'd show it to you it looks just like you so anything though that would be anything if it's by itself but with everything else it I mean that's why that's why we're here talking to you okay was the person okay I just want to make sure we leave here today we're giving you every opportunity yeah I don't want you to stop that's right don't don't say we didn't okay I may believe I did it but I understand it I know but he said he already said it but I didn't do it but you know but you know why we believe it because the ever no it's not just the DNA the evidence says you didn't witness what we want to know is how it happened and why okay because I can tell you all right let me tell you this I've been working homicides for about 10 years now and I have interviewed a lot of people that have killed people all right now some of them go to jail all right and they're charged with murder some of them explain why they did what they did now I'm not telling you this to try to tell us something that that's not true because I want you to do nothing but be totally honest but I can tell you if there's a reason people make decisions some of the seasons are good some of the decisions are bad that doesn't just because it's a bad decision it don't make you a bad person things is all about circumstances and that makes a decision and that and that can affect what decision is is being made there's no doubt that we believe you've done this we want to know why okay wasn't an argument was it a surprise were you defending yourself was there somebody else there and you happen to be there either way we know that you were there when it happened how would somebody else be there when y'all we wasn't there what we're telling you is the evidence shows us that you were there when she was killed you I'm just telling you what it says I've seen her but I wasn't actually dead when you know everything whatever happened happened yeah would you all we want to do is understand and give you the opportunity okay I understand you're doing your job and then based off what you tell us is what is it is it an accident anybody can be put in that position anybody can be put in a position to have to defend themselves at any time you give them McDonald's over here and get into something and have to defend yourself you know what I'm saying that ain't got nothing to do with your character I mean sometimes trouble just finds folks yeah like this program what is this 29 10 59 yeah where's that Warren I gave you let me take a look at that again it's got the address on it [Applause] 519 2019 on the road yeah this is just a copy to go with one you can keep it and throw it in the trash do whatever you want to but that's just your copy it just says one sorry I didn't bear down quite hard enough it's what they call Buckle swabs okay okay so the property and evidence sheets what they're saying we took one buckles while they set up Buckle swaps from you that's what we got in reference to there you go the darkness date up a little bit but yeah all right let me get a little information from you in case we need to get back in touch with you okay yes Abdus he's gonna walk you back okay yeah and get you this guy get his phone too yeah Abdus 678 at this alarm Muhammad hey spell salon for me no well you had to write the first time oh s-a-l-s-a-l-a-l oh I got you okay and is it LaRoche yellow roof what's a good address where you have 1561 Rupert Road Rupert yeah Decatur Georgia r-u-p-e-r-t three zero zero three two and your birthday 320 1984 I thought y'all know all that that's on the warmth but it's just easier for me to write down at one spot good telephone number for you seven eight five nine eight seven three eight nine it's a three eight nine that's you got on the warrant yeah I see your name about that all that um is that your cell phone or home number cell phone okay you got a home number yeah my mom got a whole number no it's four four okay 588 -1202 okay um you got any questions for me okay I'm gonna give you my card so you know how to get in touch with me that way if you got something you want to say y'all ready share with us or so just like if you just call up and say hey where we at on this you know what I'm talking about if you're just wondering hey are they gonna take an arrest warrant for me what's going on if you got a quick call me okay oh I ain't got no problem being honest with you like I said I've been I need to get a lawyer because I believe I did it to my DNA that a lawyer is up to you okay some people feel they need to get a lawyer I don't think I got a good lawyer because I wouldn't I mean that's what I'm saying some people leave to me but then in that case something do happen if I don't have a lawyer I I won't know how to defend myself do nothing so so that's the that's my number and that's my extension right there five five six okay okay that's how to get into it call me if you got any questions or concerns I'll be straight up with you okay okay um this first time I met you all right and it's uh yeah yeah I mean I think you were a different person back then I really do okay I mean because I know some of the stuff I did when I was 16 just stupid I mean nothing as significant as what I think you did okay but I mean we all make them all make mistakes uh we all make decisions sometimes we just have to live with the decisions we made even if it takes them 15 years to come find us you know because I'm sure we all got skeletons in our closet at some point it might come on us now so yeah okay that's right yeah I might be in my lesson I'm not talking about murder at all okay well you know not making light of your situation and you know whatever was going on then that would be kind of an understanding why something like this might happen not saying it is but I mean you know sometimes when people have got uh I'm not saying messed up in the head but I mean they're getting mixed signals uh and you know and then people are doing things like that I mean sometimes that might push them into doing something maybe that would explain why bad decisions made by a good person that's what I'm saying I understand okay Maybe there you go let's see are you doing all right hey Salam you're doing okay good good uh we just want to talk to you again appreciate you taking a moment and speaking with us kind of like last time you're not under arrest or anything like that okay we just want to kind of clarify a few things I know last time we talked in length well I think we talked probably about a couple hours and you kind of you know if we were inquiring about you know exactly your involvement and you know but that's right how you came in contact with her and stuff like that and so that's some stuff we want to kind of clarify on that since uh you know we talked to you last time you know we've talked to your dad we've talked to your cousin talked to your sister uh talk to some other individuals and so you know they've kind of told us some stuff that they knew or some stuff that they didn't know that might have came out you know when we talked before and then maybe some stuff that y'all might have talked about on the phone I think at one point they might have uh we might have talked to you uh why you and Liam were talking or something and uh so you know that's that's kind of what we want to do today is just kind of clarify some of that stuff okay so basically tell us again you know you was telling us how you knew or or came into contact with the lady her name's Pamela christler right um like and it's like the same way like we met well I didn't meet her but you know but it was like at a pool area I know and we are you should swim play ball but you know what I'm saying but I was going at the same time like I said like then I was going you know trying to get a little extra money trying to you know do little stuff for people but I'm gonna like um around that time when I seen a couple times at the pool and all the other stuff but uh that's it now you said you kind of refer to the the we met her at the pool who who is we no I'm saying me and you know like I met it because you know a couple guys rounded up probably holding me you know Caucasian guy they were talking about an old lady who you know mess around but they never did you know if the game really giving them names nothing I just you know kind of like pointed out yeah is it is there anybody else during that time frame that you might have hung out with might have lived with or been in that area when you and Miss Chrysler you know when y'all met at the pool that can can confirm that you know you and Miss Chrysler knew each other because you know I could go talk to you I mean I don't think nobody could confirm that now that I remember okay and when you say you met her at the pool how did a meter how do you all know each other no but I met through like just I told you like taking the trash out and you know got the you know talking about I don't know exactly how it all happened but you know one thing left to another and you know so you know like we I think she had for help and I came over and she asked for you know done with a little drink water yeah I think so but I'm not I really don't remember all the details you know so just just for clarity did you know her or did you just take trash out for it I didn't know did you have a personal relationship with it it was uh we had sexual relationships um you know well I would say that would be a personal relationship having sex and for what I heard of people was going over there like a lot of you know individuals going over there did you see individuals going over there is that just something you heard okay so you met her at the pool I met her like I've seen at the pool but I met her at the house so you met her at the apartment he was taking trash out you know like I told you back then I was going door-to-door trying to see who needed you know okay and that's how you met her okay and I think when you was telling us before you would take trash out or other items out trash if you need something to have a gifted like matches to bed whatever okay and I think he told us about a vacuum cleaner that you took out of her apartment yet what what kind of vacuum cleaner was that I knew it was big but I don't remember okay I've got a picture of a vacuum cleaner right here that I talked to uh okay but was it big like that is that as far as big I think it was a little bigger more old school but it wasn't like that it was like older okay so you're saying it's not like this one or you don't remember it's not like that I don't think it was like that it was like with them old school I don't remember none of them well I'm thinking more along the lines of you know how it kind of sits on four wheels and it's one of those that's got some hoses that attach right here and you can move the old school bag kind of like that okay but you can't say whether this is um the one you took out of there the vacuum cleaner do you remember what you done with that I took it to the um outside to the trash so you threw it away yeah and I think at one time you was telling us about um outside of the relationship that you had with her uh where you met her at the pool how long was that relationship going on I like every now and then she'll let me um come over to take our trash and then about like three two or three different incidents I don't remember how many times I did if I know they're pretty exciting but I don't remember how many times okay and then when when in as far as how long I know you said two or three times are we talking about two or three times in a week two or three times in a month two or three times in two months three months I mean did you know we're a long time for like I don't even say I know for like three months because I don't think I you know like I really don't remember but I know I ain't knowing a long time though okay and and I know you referenced three months is that just a number you threw out there or do you think it could be it could be I don't think I was for three months because I know um I don't know how I want them moving but I know my sister was moving so I couldn't stay here okay and then I and then we were talking again last time you were telling us about when you discovered or when you saw yeah I mean but I was just you know I was just nervous I didn't know what to do okay well we're past that so you know at this point we're just trying to clarify a few things so tell us again how it was that you came across uh finding this Christmas because I came to well it was like I walked in the door the doors already opened and like cracked open a little bit and which door was this that you went in that was the front door okay and I just you know I seen lights on but when I went to the room I just seen the body now what lights did you see on it was like um I think it was a kitchen light okay so I think somebody was home okay and when you say the door come in oh you know the door's open okay so when the door was open do you mean like standing wide open like halfway open just cracked open or like yeah you can show it yeah is about like halfway open because he just kind of just barely cracked yeah okay okay and then so you see the doors cracked open you see the kitchen lights on and then is anything else going on TV playing radio anything like that okay okay and so I guess you go in at some point and then what happens when you start going in I didn't hear nothing the guys went to the back but I figured she just left the door open locked was she expecting you that day I mean but earlier I think it was earlier that I don't know if it was this day or that day I thought I was gonna come I'll stop by see if you need anything okay and how did you tell her that did you like see her in person you call her on the phone I see the um across from the pool well you know she was sitting out there with an open Kitty thing on I remember that I don't know if it was the same day or the day after I was wondering though okay and so you go you go over the doors cracked open and then I guess you go inside and what what do you see or what happens from there um I'm laying down bleeding you know and where did you see her laying down and I put touch to see if she was like moving but she did and then I just ran and left okay and where was she laying down at on the floor I think what was it like in the living room in the kitchen and the bed in the bedroom okay and I didn't think that apartment was pretty big yeah I think it's a pretty small apartment and when you saw her he said she was bleeding where was she bleeding from so there was a lot of blood I guess it was pretty yeah it was pretty good okay and was she laying like was she able to communicate with you or when you say she was laying there like she I try to say something okay and then what was she wearing again you remember the kitchen light on but you can't remember what she was wearing okay I think last time you said she was wearing some panties yeah panties I think she's wearing panties on this or a t-shirt okay and you said she was just laying down when she like face down laying face up okay okay so you could see her so she was laying face up okay and could you tell where she was bleeding from or why she was bleeding no because the room wasn't even half light on okay bunch of dog stuff okay so was it night time when you went over there it was nighttime do you remember about what time it might have been I remember okay and I guess when I say that you know what I think of night time this happened in August and so you got to think it probably didn't get dark until like 8 30 9 o'clock you know in the summertime because it stays light pretty late and then so you got to think you know it's at least after nine ten o'clock something like that if it's dark in there yeah okay okay but you just remember it was dark at night time okay um but you don't remember where she was bleeding from I don't remember okay I don't know I really don't remember what she was beautiful or what was the cause of death and you said that you touched her what was what was the deal because you know you know how you just touch somebody see if they're gonna move break up okay action or something but none of that happened and you remember where you touched her at I think on the shoulder like you know just moved a little bit try to see hey you know did she respond in any way okay and then you said you left out of there and when you left out do you remember if you shut the door or not I don't know do you remember if any other doors were open or Windows I seen the sliding door okay and when you say open again kind of like this door here you know you you showed that it was just open cracked is it the same with the sliding door all the way open halfway I know the sliding door just like open like you just know it was open just don't remember how much yeah okay and then you and then you left up out of there where did you go from there I ran back to the house to where I was staying at that and then and where were you staying at then who was you staying with I thought and your sister and Ahmad stayed together that time yeah and then Liam stayed in another apartment but the same complex yeah so you when you left up by there you think you went back to your sisters yeah because that's what I was saying that okay and when you got back there did you tell anybody there I thought I did but them said I did it but I was like I thought because he because he meant mentioned about the police being man I said oh yeah I thought but he said he don't remember me telling him that it's been so long he probably know I mean I don't even blame you he did okay well that's pretty significant you know you test money you saw a person and well he also said that you you told your sister but we asked her about it she didn't remember yeah because I mean she said she didn't remember me telling her so I was like oh somebody but who do you think he told if you didn't tell Couture or Liam I don't know put this out and tell him so and I mean if they don't remember I can't because I mean I'm I'm for certain I told somebody the only people I basically knew you know you know who's an adult and then at some point you're just talking about the vacuum cleaning that you took what do you remember when it was that you took that out of her house was it the day that you discovered her no was it before that before that I don't think it was the day I discovered that you know we got accomplishment before and did when you discovered her like that and you ran away did you ever go back to the apartment I mean but I went back to but I seen like you know red yellow tape and stuff around the door like everybody remember going back to see you know because I never found out what happened um did you ever talk to anybody talk to the police or anybody out there I never thought of police but they said somebody um I think a counselor came and asked for me but they never said what for us again what was the deal with the counselor he's talking about like from school I think I remember you telling me something about that last time what did they want so they just asked if that was your name and then that was it I said yeah I don't know if it was put out you know school grades or whatever you know I don't know what it was about right okay okay um so I guess since we last talked which was back in January yeah and then uh you know we're coming out here talking today and kind of clarifying some of this stuff and I think he said that you was you told Liam and and he just doesn't remember or maybe you just don't remember dope but you know who raised me my sister I met Orlando I don't remember me telling them and you know and I guess since since we talked back in January you've had two three months to kind of reflect on you know what our conversation was about and think about everything that might have happened back then and I think we've kind of talked about some of it here I mean we didn't go over all the details I think last time we talked you said that you initially started out you didn't know where and then you knew her and you know I mean it's very stuff have you have you talked to anybody about this since then since we talked about it I told everybody that I've you know deemed lamb I told everybody I'd talk to me about it okay and they already told me I came to them and talked to them what did you tell them when y'all talk I told the mom like I asked him like you don't remember me telling you said I don't remember man you know that's what he said how many did y'all y'all talk a little bit more about it yeah I mean you know well not more than detail about about just about me you know asking about you know me tell them about me seeing a body whatever and police and all that he said he'll remember he said he remember me but you know him telling me about the police but he'll remember me telling me about about me well since y'all talked about some of the stuff from the past about you not telling him and and not remembering and stuff I'm sure he asked you well what's going on yeah so what all did y'all talk about there um but that um he had questioned me about um a murder that happened in College Park um you know about 20 years ago and he asked me for that you know I said nah and I thought um and I told him I thought I told you about the body you know what I'm saying the same day that you know that it happened that I see you know I'm saying nobody you know I'm saying I told you about it same day that you know he came to me and told me that police were all over the place and what did you tell you said you told Dean about it what did you and him talk about no um came to me about it that was about because Dean told me that I'm just called him told him I guess they just you know they just started acting like I guess they shot like you know what's this party you know that's why right did you tell anybody else or have you talked to anybody else about it I talked to nobody I'm gonna get I do talking about myself my mom said yeah and that's about it I don't know if you talk to you all or not anybody else no except my brother you know my brother was on the phone with them I got there trying to figure out what was going on who's your brother Noah Noah is it no uh LaRoche Noah Joseph Noah Joseph yeah Noah Joseph LaRoche okay So when you say your brother you're talking about like your blood relative okay but you don't think LaRosa's last night Noah Joseph they got I don't know where he got Joseph from work I think that's I got you yeah okay and since we since the the last time we talked um and you've had so much time to think about kind of you know and remember back what was going on 2002. have you remembered anything else that uh that we hadn't already talked about I did I just play the whole thing with trying to figure out you know like what it got to do with me but that's the whole time I've been thinking like you know that's about it but there's really nobody else I could talk to but except the people that you're already talking they asked me questions I'm like I don't know what's going on you know I thought I told the lambo I thought I told you to talk but I mean I told somebody but they probably just don't remember like she said Mr long ago okay um so just so I'm kind of clear on this I think it today when we came in here we didn't we didn't go around in any circles or anything like that I mean we're we're clear on who we're talking about but when we're talking about Miss Chrysler well that's her last name it's Pamela Chrisler um so when we're talking about her I guess you're saying that y'all had sex several times but you didn't even know her name twice but I just knew I mean ham but I p or Miss P Miss p and so but there's nobody I can go talk to that can confirm that we have that y'all were either seeing each other or hanging out with each other having sex with each other or something well it's kind of been too discreet if you got these other folks out here saying hey we sleep in water too I'm saying you know what I'm saying as far as like because I don't know because them guys look like a lot older than me they're like more of a college they look like they was in college and stuff like that so and I guess what I'm going with that is that I want to believe what you're telling me okay and I believe the fact that you were in her apartment and the fact that you were there when she was deceased and all that but I want something I can go and put my hands on or somebody I can go and talk to that's going to say hey this is what Salam this is what I knew was going on back then and I know what he's telling you now was true but it sounds like everything you're telling me it's in a story and it's an account of what was going on but there's no way that I can go back and verify any of that and I'll put the work in and the timing yeah remember that neither yeah and that's the thing you know like we go back and talk to Liam you said hey I told Liam about this and I go back and talk to Liam and Liam says now he didn't tell me about it and you know like you say Couture and we go talk to Couture and she said well he didn't tell me about it and I talked to Dean and Dean says no he didn't tell me about it and and I want somebody I can go to try to confirm what you're telling me because I want to say but because I think you know more about it but I want to be able to say all right what he's told me I've been able to go back and confirm it and I know it's true and I can't do that with anything that you've told me other than the fact that you've been in the apartment which I can confirm that and I know that's true yeah but I mean that's what I thought I thought I told even about um Miss p and how we have an intercourse they say they don't remember and how old was you back then okay so 16 years old and and I'm not trying to get in your mind but 16 years old you're having sexual intercourse with an older lady yeah and you ain't telling nobody about what's going on that's why I'm I'm sure you know what I'm saying you'll be like hey man let me tell you what's going on that's what I'm saying oh so you're saying you told Dean about having sex with her I think I did um because I was like bragging about it but but not to everybody but just to help with me and him was close but I guess he said he don't remember so I mean that would shock me about me Dino remember stuff that happened like I was gonna say because when we talked to Dean you know we covered questions such as that yeah what was going on in your life at the time what was you talking about what were you doing going to school why were you down from Lithonia All Those Questions we covered all those questions and there wasn't nothing in there about you seeing some older lady you know I know it wasn't that but while I was you know I'm not even able to find anybody that can say you went around taking trash out I mean it's been so long but I mean but I want to remember you know but I remember that um them time because that's what I remember when I first you know like having it was going to make money and he said you need to you know start making your own money because you know when Dixie wasn't doing no good and he said that then you just start doing stuff around like seeing people in the new grass I take trash out and I learned that from my pops anyway though because you need to go not on people's doors not saying ain't nothing wrong with it I just can't find anybody that can confirm any part of your story everything that I'm confirming in regards to you suggests that you in that apartment as a stranger no other reason for you to be there other than you're there but I wasn't taking the trash out and helping you know I did help with Texas step by the house but I don't you know I don't you know expect nobody to remember or whatever why not that was a pretty traumatic time for that that apartment complex yeah you know what I'm saying yeah it's not every day when somebody gets killed as far as the body that's different I'm talking about as far as taking the trash out and stuff like stuff like that well a lot of times when you got a traumatic event like that such as somebody being killed you remember things that are going on around that if nothing like that ever happens you probably don't think twice about it but when you get something like that that happens you start remembering all those details and those are the people that we're talking to but we just can't verify nothing you're telling us I don't know I mean I don't know what to tell you but I know um is that because you're not being honest about it I'm asking is that why we can't confirm it is that we can't confirm that you ever dated this lady or was having relations with her because well dating like sleeping with her that's what I'm talking about ever sleeping with this lady we can't confirm that because it ain't true it is true but I mean so at 16 you didn't tell anybody that you sleeping with an older lady I remember telling D but he probably don't remember though I mean you know like I forgot that I um a few girls I didn't met back in high school I can't remember their names or I don't remember who I smile but I know if I see them come in contact with them you know they'll jog back my memory though well we're not we're not really talking about then we're talking about a lady that a 16 year old would be sleeping with that's like three times his age and you ain't telling nobody about it that's a 60 year old fantasy but you know but that's not that's not the first time I had slept with an older lady though well who did you tell about the other older lady whoa I don't know who I talked about other lady but there's not an Athens though I guess what I'm saying is you sleep with this other older lady you're telling folks about it there you don't remember who you told but that's the same thing about this but I didn't tell nobody but they were like what 10 years older than me and you know all right well I guess let's don't get too far off track but I'm just trying to make a point at 16 you're gonna be telling you're gonna be bragging about that I guess he don't remember I don't know they don't want to get involved or what but I know why would they not want to get involved and help out a buddy or a family member I don't know you know what I'm saying yeah I understand but you know I don't know but that's what I'm um like my sister I don't remember I mean you got me involved in I said I don't got I mean I'm just thinking trying to remember who I um did I tell you I live and you know you didn't tell any of them you know because I mentioned like I don't you know okay well we're not I'm not able to confirm anything that you told me all I've got is that I know you went into her apartment and from what I understand y'all don't know each other because I can't confirm that you know her you ain't told anybody you know I knew it from the neighborhood and all that but I don't know a personal personal life and so I guess where I'm at now I really don't remember who they are you know like well I guess where I'm at now is I'm trying to figure out why you went in her apartment okay if it's still the trash thing okay it's the trash thing but I don't think it's the sex thing because I don't think y'all knew each other I don't think y'all were dating and when I say dating I'm talking about sleeping together I ain't talking about going down and having a candlelight dinner somewhere all right so I I can't confirm any of that nothing in her history suggests that nothing in your history suggests that y'all were seeing each other and even talking to all your family and friends nobody knows anything about y'all seeing each other okay how long was it after you found her that you left Athens um I don't remember I mean like the next week did you finish school because you would have just started school in August you know ain't that about what time school starts I think I left when everybody else left because I couldn't stand that I mean I haven't really had nobody else to stay within that so I mean did you do you remember starting school that year I remember being in school if I think so I was in school in Athens but do you remember at what point she left well I think what I talked to I think it was Dean if I remember right when he left and came back from Savannah you were already gone yeah with my mom his mom and he came back in like September to I moved him up I think I moved with my mama in Atlanta because that's the only person I had left to stay with because I'm in a guitar left because I remember um when Dean was there lemon was there we always stayed I'll stay with them when he was there and everybody left is the only person that stayed in Athens I think as far as well then he said he came back in September and you were gone you'd already left does that sound right because September will be the next month after August I don't know I don't remember do you remember when Dean came back I eventually moved down there with Dean and them to Savannah to work for Sears I don't know if there's that same it was like after I left from Atlanta I don't want to move in with Dean mom in Savannah then I left and moved back to Atlanta well this is that's something else I'm trying to understand why did you leave Athens and go to Atlanta I had nowhere because Couture and them had moved and I think I moved with them but I moved with my mother and dad got their own apartment I don't think did you leave with Couture because I think a tour was still stay in there during this time I remember who I left I don't think she was I don't remember I didn't know I got to ask her I gotta ask her because it was you know I couldn't just move by myself I had no vehicle if I was gonna have it because that's what I'm trying to figure out I thought you know I think he went in this apartment not knowing this lady for whatever reason you went in there and then shortly after you find this lady or this incident happens you're leaving you're gone you know you're down here to go to school but then you know also you just up and leave I was still going to school after that running into nothing I was still going to school you talking about going to school here I left Athens I think because they tried to help me back another grade so I just said if I'm getting my own TV that I you know remember me and Dean had a discussion uh they're trying to hold me back another year so that's what we go to the um 11 to try to give me back 10. tell me about this vacuum cleaner that you took from this lady's apartment let you through in the trash tell me about the the deal with that I took out the trash like I've been doing the trash where did you get it from oh no I mean I think last time we talked sometimes you get stuff off of like a porch or something like that is this something that was on the porch is this something that was inside the resonance is this something she brought you to the door I don't know I know she told me that she needed me to move the vacuum and you know it was I guess it was Heavy I wound up picking it up I'm walking it out and do you remember when it was that you took it out no built during the daytime you sure it wasn't the day that you found her I'm I'm sure within the day I found nah it wasn't the day I found him how can you be so sure about that because it wasn't I mean I'm not sure but I know it wasn't the day I found it because she was you know because she happy to get it and she was alive then and I say that because you know we had a witness that saw you coming out of that apartment and when you came when you were coming out of that apartment you were carrying that vacuum cleaner and the vacuum cleaner you were carrying was the one that I showed you in this picture right here and that wasn't the vacuum cleaner yeah well it looked just this ain't the exact vacuum cleaner that's the vacuum cleaner it looked just like that vacuum cleaner it was that type of vacuum cleaner that color of vacuum cleaner yeah I mean they probably did see me carry it I mean I wasn't hot in nothing but yeah I mean it's not like you could hide it it ain't gonna fit up under your coat you know what I'm saying I wasn't hide in period yeah and so that's so when they see you coming out and bringing that vacuum cleaner out this was the same time that Miss Chrysler was discovered as being dead shortly after that I hope that was the week before and so that's why I'm trying to figure out when was it that you took that vacuum cleaner out I know she was alive and breathing when I took it out and when you took it out this was like at night time when you took it out not in the daytime like what you remember I know it was like it wasn't too dark but it wasn't I don't think well it would have been dark because this was like two o'clock in the morning now this one two o'clock in the morning and it don't get no darker than two o'clock in the morning I remember it being too late well it was because the person I mean I mean they it was you taking the vacuum cleaner out coming out the door with it and then that's when it was that they saw this going on at two o'clock in the morning so that's why I'm trying to figure out the time frame of you taking the vacuum cleaner and Miss Chrysler ended up dead because those things happen like right there pretty close together I know it wasn't dragged him out but I know it was during the time when she was alive it was late well you know they didn't have but two vacuum cleaners in the apartment right I don't that's it I'm just saying that's all they had was two of them one of them's still in the apartment when Miss Crystal was found and so the other one is the vacuum cleaner that you took out of the apartment which is this one right here and so well I guess what I'm saying is they only had to you took one of them out of the apartment so there's only one left which is what we find when we go in there and find Miss Chrysler and then the lady that sees you taking the vacuum cleaner out sees you taking it out at two o'clock in the morning and so and we know that that it was a day that was right there when Miss Chrysler was if she wasn't dead she was in the process of dying and so we're trying to figure out what this time frame is with you taking this vacuum cleaner because that's pretty significant so I need you to try to remember that okay I really don't remember but I know it wasn't late at night I don't remember that fact but well there's there's no doubt that it was two o'clock in the morning okay you may not remember it being two o'clock in the morning because because that's when the lady saw you taking the vacuum cleaner out of the door I'm telling you now you tell them it is I mean I don't know what I've said I'll be I know she was alive I just I'm just I'm just looking for the truth I know she was alive though that's you know like whenever I took a vacuum cleaner in the trash out people they'd be alive I don't take it you know what else was going on in your life during that time frame as far as going around from apartment Department taking out trash did you win basketball you got into a fight with this one guy I remember he was and it was all it was all this one guy walking around them kept asking me about but I never knew who he was he just I was walking around looking you know but I don't know I never asked you what I ain't known but nothing else was going on well the fight part I'm not too interested in the fight part because I think last time we talked he was telling us about this fight and it you know your story was kind of all over the place with the fight you know I don't remember them so long ago just I remember at all yeah well I know that the story was all over the place it didn't make sense that's why you know I don't even want to go back to the fight side of it okay um but I want to I want to figure out how Miss Chrysler ended up dead that's what I want to try to figure out and I know that uh you're the last person to see her before the police found her okay and I know that you're the person that took a vacuum cleaner out of the house at about the same time a lot of you know I took trash out of our house before trash might have been a lot of trash but there was only two vacuum cleaners I don't know well I'm just telling you you took one and there's one still in the apartment and I'm a simple but that adds up the two so it's not like there's a third vacuum cleaner that got taken out okay so I guess what back to what I'm trying to figure out you're the last person that saw Miss Chrysler before the police found her deceased okay and the lady I mean you're the last person that we know of that's all okay and the vacuum cleaner that was taken out was taken out around the same time that we know that she was probably she was either dying or was dead and we know that you took the vacuum cleaner out so not only does that put you as seeing her when I took it out I don't know what time but I know a lot and I get I guess I'm looking for some for some honesty from you I mean we're talking 15 years has gone by and we're trying to bring some closure to this family and I know and I know that that you've moved on you've got a family coming up and you got what you got two children one on the way or have you already had I got two kids two boys a girl and one on the way okay so three kids and one on the way okay and a stepdaughter and so I know you've got you've putting all this behind you but it's all come back up front we're trying to we're trying to figure it out and trying to figure out what your involvement is in it because that's what I could but you know well the best way is to tell us everything the everything and tell us the truth okay that's what we're looking for is the truth and I told you everything because what you've told us you you're trying it sounds like you're trying to come up with a story no but what you said to me is that what I'm telling you you sound like a story because you don't got nobody to verify that out of relationship that's right yeah and that everybody was that I told they don't remember no no no no they didn't say they didn't remember it they said no you didn't tell them yeah that's a difference so when they told me they told me this they don't remember me because I tell you if they told me that they said you know what I really don't remember maybe he did tell me I would give you the benefit of the doubt that's what they told me about that why did they say that but that ain't what they said they said hey he didn't tell us anything like that and not only did they say that they said why would he say something like that they actually got offended that you would bring something in and and pull them into it to try to implicate them in this instant by giving you or covering for you I'm not telling new people I don't know nothing about all that right there but I know how yeah you do because you've talked to him since then yeah and they told you and they told me and they told me after I talked to y'all they told me like well if you did ought to remember it was so long ago that was the exact words it's like and maybe that's what they didn't want to tell you to you face I don't know I can't argue with nobody and be like yes you do you know I don't you know because I if they don't remember if they don't know if they think I didn't tell them well that's the thing it ain't about they don't remember they said no he didn't say nothing like that he didn't tell me anything I don't remember if they don't know I mean I'm not gonna pick a fight and argument about it I mean because I know I told somebody if they don't want to say but yeah you can't tell me who it is you're told I mean I told you what I thought I told is only like three people and we've talked all of them I know that's what I'm saying hey let me ask you this we talked to I've talked to some other people too have you told anybody since this happened have you talked about this and I ain't talking about like back in January I'm talking a couple of years ago have you told anybody about this have you all talked about this I don't understand when I last time we talked you told us that uh Ilia said you and him had talked about it yeah a couple of years ago I don't remember well when we were first when we were first talking you said that Ellis is the one that told you about the dead body but I'll give you the doubt because you weren't didn't want to come forward and say hey I saw one okay so I'll cut you that slack but at least you said y'all talked about it I mean no I mean I don't remember talking to Ellis about it you know but I remember talking to um from who I thought I remember talking to about it was Dean and um Lebanon but it said that they don't remember and when was that it was like you know probably like back when it all happened like no no no I'm talking just a couple of years ago like maybe 2012. what was going on in your life in 2012 where were you at 2002 are you going to Africa or getting ready to go to Africa as well I was working at Delta and I went to Africa travel with Africa with Ahmed and my family and stuff but that's about it but another two thousand you don't remember talking to any of them about this back in 2012 okay but I remember because I talked to somebody that says y'all did talk about it back then and talking to them about it to where they said that you were you said hey one time I killed this lady because she woke up when I went in the apartment no I don't know well I would think you would remember something like that that's pretty significant not only finding the dead body uh which you know initially why would I say something like that I don't know that's what we're trying to figure out too why why would you say something like that I got a I got a feeling why you might say something like that to somebody because when something like that happens some people just got to tell somebody you got to get it off your chest unless you've got unless you're a psychopath and can keep all that stuff inside of you somebody that I don't think you are I'm just saying a psychopath wouldn't tell anybody but I didn't tell nobody about it I don't even talk to Indians in front of the world that's deemed and then Dean he was real close with Dean I don't you know well they say you did and they say you said that uh that's that's kind of what happened you went in there went in the apartment uh going to burglarize the apartment and then as a result of that the lady that was in there you know you got into a confrontation with her I don't tell them nobody that and so when they tell when they tell us that and then along with uh you know you we got your DNA at the you know we talked about that last time I got your DNA in the apartment and then you know so we come to you with the benefit of the doubt going all right why is your DNA in this apartment because we want to hear it firsthand from you about what's going on and why it's there and then you give us all these reasons why your DNA is in this apartment you're saying and not only is this you know these people right here can confirm that well it don't pan out all we've still got is your DNA in the apartment and all these reasons behind you know the people that confirm this say no he never told me that no he didn't say nothing like that no he didn't tell me about that I remember like I don't I mean I never [ __ ] I forgot all the all about so so that's why we've come full circle back from when we talked back in January come out here giving you the benefit of the doubt wanting to know why your DNA is there you provided us the reason what you said your DNA was there it ain't panning out because we've gone and done some verifying and some checking and then not only that we've we've talked to some other people that said you've told them that that's what happened and so now we're trying to figure out and then that's why we're back out here talking with you okay we're back out here because we want the truth we want to know what happened and we want to know why it happened I didn't I didn't murder I mean this is your opportunity okay we won't we want to provide you with the opportunity to explain what happened because when you're young good people can make bad decisions sometimes and those decisions aren't always made when you're young the more rash decisions they people make okay they don't make the best they said the decisions you make today are not the same decisions you make when you're 16. is that fair to say you're a totally different person all right so but we need to understand what happened back in that apartment when you were 16. and this is your opportunity to explain that to us I told you everything I could remember but I know I didn't murder no but I know when I took the back of my lady was alive but I didn't and I didn't damn sure to tell nobody that I went to Burger well now do you really want to sit there and say you're going to put this on your kid I mean saying that you didn't murder nobody I did it because there's when you think of murder people think of people that's murder as a bad guy I don't like to think of it as murder I like to think of it if something happened and as a result this lady died okay and I think you had something to do with that there's not a doubt okay so I don't want you to put it on your kid and say that because not only have these decisions that you made when you were 16 brought us together talking today but then I you know and you're gonna have to live with that you know no matter what you know this is decisions people make they have to live with good or bad okay and they always come full circle those decisions you know it might be one year down the road it might be 15 years down the road but usually they come back around full circle and they find us so I don't want you saying I put it on my kid that I didn't do that because that's another decision you make in today all right so what I'm looking for is the truth and I'm looking for what all happened that day I told you the truth I have nothing I could say you can tell me the truth tell me the complete truth I did I have nothing like I wish I'm gonna put I mean I don't I said I think there's a lot you can say I told you everything I remember well I think you would remember if you uh killed somebody is that fair to say you'd remember that so how is it that all this evidence that we got leading to me the people that we've talked to and all the benefit of the doubt that we're giving you uh it always you know you know how you look you see all these arrows you know on TV that try to get you to you know they keep pointing at a certain area well all of them are pointing at you ain't pointing nobody else and they're all lit up bright so that's what we're trying to figure out and I won't and I'm and I'm going to give you the opportunity to explain the wrong test the wrong time and that could have been it could have been wrong place wrong time um I mean that very well could have been it I know but I mean it could have been something simple they didn't murder her maybe kill this lady what the second time I've met you you seemed like a really nice guy okay and you said something earlier that I felt was you being honest you said I panicked when I seen the body yeah well that's what you said you paint when you've seen the body I think that you were right that you were probably just trying to help provide trying to put money in your pocket trying to help support the family right and maybe you went in there and then you panicked and something bad happened yeah but you know but I wasn't looking for you know like um like like I had no responsibilities but you were still taking out trash with people and doing things trying to make things you know just more some like shoes unless you say there's a vacant apartment maybe somebody left something in there or something maybe a value okay and you see an open door and you didn't know that nobody was in there giving you the benefits of Doubt here and then you panicked and maybe you were defending yourself but what we're trying to do because again we'll just meet me I think you're a super nice guy and we're trying to give you that opportunity something bad happened in there and we don't think you're a bad person again you were very young and and maybe you're just going to see somebody left something behind it man you you might have been defending yourself but if that's the case we knew because you're right you panicked you're right and you know my parents and left the apartment but I didn't you know I won't care nobody did she come after you I said but I won't kill nobody no I didn't say but you should come after you then nobody come after me because she was already dead when I came there that night and I passed you're saying she was already dead yeah I guess because she was moving when I um trying to got to wake up she was wrong but I didn't know you know I don't know what was going on I wish you really having sex with her or not yeah I was I mean that's the only reason why I would just walk I'm just walking nobody's parking apartment I mean it could be as innocent like I said though I mean maybe it was a lot of vacant apartments over at the time maybe you just seeing something there Vegas but I know that apartment because I don't you know because I know earlier that day had to be earlier that day that I thought I was going to come by see if you need anything we're trying to give you an opportunity if this was self-defense this was something else this is a kid that panicked give us that opportunity this is not no cold-blooded murder or a crazy thing like that give us give us that opportunity to to tell your story so but that's my story I don't know what else to say the truth I mean the the whole truth because because I can tell you just like Jerry is saying we do not believe that you went to an apartment with the intent of killing somebody we do not believe it we believe you went through the apartment or ended up in the apartment for whatever reason maybe it's because the door was open and so you maybe it's because you saw the light on but for whatever reason you ended up inside that apartment we don't think that you went into that apartment with the intent on killing anybody I I tell you that now we do not think that but I do think that when you went into that apartment something happened between you and her and it got out of control to the point where she died and there was nobody else in the apartment it was just you and her and that's what happened and I'm trying to understand and I want you to tell me because this is your opportunity to explain it what this was that happened I told you everything I know I mean I don't know what y'all but you didn't tell me about that and the thing is is I know I'm not guessing I'm not hoping I'm right I know you were in the apartment she was in the apartment she was alive you were alive and something happened between the two of you and as a result she died I don't know what y'all want me to say I want to say it all I want you to say I don't want you to say anything that's not true all I want you to do is tell the truth you will feel so much better I'm saying that's the only thing I can remember know but I didn't I didn't I know for a fact I didn't kill this lady for a fact I know all the evidence you're saying is pointing to me because of my DNA why would that evidence be point to you is there a conspiracy with some other folks trying to frame me for something no but I don't I had no problems with nobody I don't got no I got damn sure didn't have no reason to kill this lady that's why I don't think he went there with the intent that's why I don't think you went to that apartment or ended up that apartment because you didn't have no reason to do that I don't think you knew this lady okay you may have said Hey to her but I don't think y'all were you know relationship-wise having sex with somebody is a relationship yeah it is but I didn't have one night stand before and this is what I was but you didn't have a one-night stand with her it wasn't just a one-night stand it was just from stuff that just happened but you know but it happened like twice I think three times but I I won't tell you as long I don't think I don't think y'all knew each other like that I don't think y'all were having sex okay I mean nothing suggests y'all were having sex nobody nobody has saw you and her the only time anybody saw you in her apartment was when you was leaving out carrying that vacuum cleaner at two o'clock in the morning that is the only time I can find anybody or any of the detectives that worked this case back in 2002 that saw you coming from that apartment now your response is going to be maybe I came from that apartment and nobody didn't see me you know how many people hang around that pool at in August and you know how many doors there are up and down that hallway and all them Apartments were occupied it ain't like they were vacant apartments around her apartment nobody saw y'all so I don't believe you had a relationship and you're telling me that you told Liam Keturah Dean these folks said I understand that but I'm putting that with everything else these folks say you didn't tell them nobody else saw you nobody around the pool saw you I believe you might have seen her you might have waved at her but I don't believe y'all were having sex okay and so I need you to be honest at least be honest about that if you're not gonna be honest about nothing else no I want you to tell me the truth that's all I want you know that's the only you know because other than that I you know that's the only way I remember you know because I only got half the other people out there got trash for don't sit here all right let me let me put it to you this way let me let me try to appeal to your good conscience okay you're free to leave anytime you want to okay we're just trying to get well I'm just trying to get clarity okay catch the bus I'm because I really ain't got no other way I understand and like I said you're not under arrest okay I'm just trying to get some answers I mean but that's what I mean I don't know what else so you so so you're gonna sit here not only has this lady been killed all right I'm gonna peel the ear goes out to her family but all right that's what I'm looking for right there so don't sit here and disrespect her by saying y'all were sleeping together if y'all weren't sleeping together we was though I'm not gonna I mean you know like you real discreet she offered me wine before you know I'm saying like I think I was flirting you know but she was learned but I mean I didn't kill her though I think he did and I want to know why I want to know what happened I'm trying to understand I did it I don't think you didn't really care nobody they're saying it it's in everybody to kill somebody ever anybody could do that if the circumstances are right but just because you do something like that there is a reason and I'm trying to understand what that reason was you know what I think the reason was I think you were young I think you went in there to burglarize the apartment early in the morning not thinking anybody was in the apartment and I think when you got in there then you realize she was in there I think she woke up and she saw you and I don't think you knew what to do you had two options you could run and not do anything and hope nothing happens uh or you could sit there and do what you've done you could take some kind of action so that you knew she wouldn't be able to tell anybody about what she saw well that's well that that's the theory that's just what I think yeah that's not what tell me what happened that's what I want to know all I want to know is what I told you what happened all you told me in the door's track I seen it the body I moved to try to see if she was alive or you know what's wrong but she wasn't budging I just left I ran and you remember that pretty good but I remember that night yeah because it was real that was wondering until y'all came back you know from January that as well burn in your memory but that yeah that particular time I mean you can't help but something like that may burn in your memory yeah you brought back your memory I've never seen any I just ran I didn't know what to do but I know I told somebody but they said I didn't tell I didn't I didn't tip I didn't want me one minute that's convenient ain't it yeah I told somebody but I just don't know who yeah because it was like almost 60 years ago I know I thought somebody said they said I didn't you know I guess they said I didn't but I know I did foreign let me ask you this question um you've been super nice you're willing to talk to us in four months from now something else comes up or if we can verify something else that okay if we come back and talk to you then yeah I can all come back and talk I don't see why y'all got to bring me here why y'all just come to this convenient we don't want your neighbors and your family and other stuff like that you have to come here anyway so I just made it we're trying to make it convenient for you boss no no I could come to the house y'all can call me I can I don't know I don't do none of that foreign coming anyway this way this is the same thing he said last time [Music] oh