my SWAT Commander that I was with he decided that they were going to put some suppression fire into the residence my partner and I would run across the open backyard and pull the officer from the line of fire which was great and then as soon as they started firing we started running next thing I knew I got to the downed officer and I could see the holes through the back door and was expecting to really start taking gunfire at any moment [Music] in fact it is our first ever episode joined by my colleague and co-host Laura Sullivan who is going to be our kind of Wrangler to make sure we stay on task and pretty awesome responsibility that is a huge responsibility I feel like if this is the first episode we need to do some introductory things like housekeeping things to give everybody some context and good idea stuff before we get our guests in here so I think the obvious first step is what's the deal with the name y56 um so law enforcement as we all know speaks in code especially on the radio there are sort of two different predominant types of codes there's signal codes but then there are the 10 codes which are more familiar everybody's familiar with 10-4 I learned about 10 codes watching Smokey in the Bandit so there's 10-4 uh there's 10 20 which is location and again they vary agency by agency but 1056 means meet or meet up which I think is cool because that's exactly what we're planning to do with this right so if you ever see two law enforcement Vehicles parked uh facing opposite directions with their driver's side near each other and they're talking they're 56ing they're Laura knows all this stuff now we're all civilians uh before our guest comes in so all of us here on the podcast we're all civilians because that's really our primary audience right we want to make sure we're kind of bridging that Gap but Laura actually is unique uh in many ways but particularly because she used to be a deputy here a very very long time ago so I am Rusty in some things but a lot has come back to me go back yeah so we'll get we'll get into that a little bit but um so yeah so you know people are first of all surprised to know that a large law enforcement agency like the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office has a full-service PR team but we are a large agency the 15th largest sheriff's office in the U.S and we have a standalone public relations Bureau and uh particularly all of us here uh that put together the podcast are members of the communications and public education team and our job for the agency is to get out of the community get out there you know make those contacts and try to have those conversations in the community get the word out the good word of course the sheriff's office so you know we do that in a lot of ways you know we're on social media we have several Publications but one area that is kind of untouched which is a whole different audience in some respects are podcasts and we have a lot of cool things to talk about so um we're excited uh about this we're even more excited that you all are joining us on our new adventure into podcasting um but let's get into a little bit um just kind of who we are and what we do because I think that's important because you know we're going to be with you guys we're going to welcome in great guests but you know a little bit about us so I do want to introduce like I said everybody involved is on a Communications public education team and I'll start with the folks that are hiding in the back not up on the mic which is going to be Aaron grudis who is our senior graphics and multimedia specialist uh Brennan Whipple who is usually the guy behind the camera but today he's behind the soundboard and if you've ever seen a pretty cool video put out by the sheriff's office that wasn't a very entertaining Instagram reel uh if it was you know really high quality good stuff it's there's a one 100 chance Brennan Whipple was behind the camera on that so he is our technical advisor of all things and you know he entertains our silly questions about how to make things work so thank you Brennan um moving to up to the mic the main table here we have Ashley Cooley who is our social media Communications specialist who has a very important role that we'll get to but anything you want to say Ashley nope that's just a no yep if you're not following us on our various social media platforms you really need to for her work just for Ashley yeah what she does is amazing but she has something very special to bring to the table for all of our guests so we're looking forward to that and then of course Laura I will let you introduce yourself a bit all right uh my least favorite thing is talking about myself but uh I'm Laura Sullivan I am I'm a uh what am I here a public relations guy a public relations specialist I don't say my title very often but uh 15 years ago I was a deputy sheriff here at Pinellas County Sheriff's Office um I left in 2007 and I did other things for 15 years I was I was a novelist for 15 years and then just uh close on to a year ago I came back here as a civilian I'm working with you guys and speaking of the novelist piece so you know part of it and I'm getting ahead of myself but but part of why we're doing this is you know we have a really awesome bi-weekly e-newsletter that goes out it's about close to 10 000 email inboxes uh twice a month uh and it's called inside the star and Laura is the primary writer of all those great articles and she really has a knack with her uh you know novelist background and she can go out and talk to deputies and get to know people and tell some incredible stories so that was really what got us talking about this was because of the really great stories that Laura was writing so thank you for that thank you last but not least I can't forget myself as I said my name is Ricky Butler I am the communications and public education manager so I have the best job in the agency there will be probably some folks over several episodes we will get in here that I will argue with about who has the best job but I have the best job because I have of course a great team which I have I'm obligated to say because y'all are staring at me but also uh because we get to get in a little bit of everything here I mean we really get to see uh the entire agency in a way that nobody else does and we get to go out and and do things and learn about things because we have to understand it in order to communicate it to people and that's what makes us kind of uniquely qualified to sit here as civilians for our law enforcement agency and talk about what they do and bring members in and learn because you know that we have to know all that so I've been here for about 10 years um and love every day of it uh our team overall we have uh some great a lot of fun responsibilities um two primary areas of responsibility we oversee all the traditional PR type Communications like correspondence social media graphics and multimedia things we've talked about all those traditional responsibilities outside of media relations because we have our friends at the public information office which are also part of the bureau we have three uh sections with the public relations Bureau so public information office is one of them we are another and then there's crime prevention and Community awareness which goes out and is teaching in the community about various uh safety Trends things like that but communication public education the other half of what we do the education piece is we are responsible for all of the agencies public education programs and special events we have a lot of great opportunities for the public whether they want to spend a couple minutes reading a newsletter whether they want to come to a meeting of the citizens Association learn about something interesting maybe commit more time for the sheriff's Citizens Academy and get some fun Hands-On opportunities that's just you know that's what we're all about so again that's why a podcast is natural because it's kind of a new way to connect and get out there so thank you all for humoring me with that and talking about ourselves a bit I know it's it's hard to do but it's it's kind of what we need to do so um before we get our guest in here let's kind of talk about what we're going to get into the sort of things we're hoping to do with this podcast um you know something that Laura said initially when we were planning that stuck out is you know we want to get the facts and the personality and and one thing that law enforcement is constantly trying to do or at least should be trying to do is find ways to connect and relate and make sure that everybody knows that while you know law enforcement officers and Corrections you know deputies are they're wearing uniforms but they're still people and they have cool stories and and things and and personality and their own lives and hobbies and all those things so we're gonna we're gonna bring guests in um we're going to choose something that's hopefully timely something that's definitely interesting and we're going to bring them in and we're going to learn about who they are first as people because that's the most important thing we're going to learn about their job and what they do probably get some you know uh information and tips that can keep you safer based on what they're telling us and things of that nature something you're going to learn something and tell stories and and hopefully have a lot of fun along the way because that's that's what it's all about it certainly if you've ever participated in one of our public education programs you know that we we are about having fun because you know listen we've all been in school we've all been you know those four years and and you know Middle School where you really excelled at a top at a subject well why because you had a teacher somebody that made it engaging made it interesting and then you learned something because if you're having fun you're definitely learning so the best we're going to try to do this is not going to be your traditional law enforcement podcast there are other agencies that have great podcasts there are some agencies that have podcasts that are like we're just doing it because we need to and it's just the sheriff talking or the head of the agency talking and listen we'd love to hear the sheriff talk and we're going to drag him in here at some point but this is going to be lighter uh hopefully easier to listen to that's what our goal is it's going to be like eavesdropping on a really fun conversation yeah pretty much pretty much um so we uh I also um speaking of the sheriff you know the sheriff is Sheriff call Terry is tremendously supportive of everything that we do and we couldn't do any of it without him uh you know he understands he may understand all the nuances of social media I remember when we launched our Twitter account I had to sit him down with the entire Command Staff and explain what a tweet was and you take a bunch of you know 20 30 plus year cops put them in a room and explain what a tweet is and a hashtag it was you know I just talked about it in therapy last week so it's a thing uh but but it you know he is on board he he understands that he doesn't always understand but he's on board with it so he trusts you he tries yeah he trusts all of us because you know and it's funny we sat down with him explained hey this is what we want to do and he said he said yes fine he'd ask a lot of questions he said he did say he did say to keep it in the lane a shipping Lane something pretty broad right it could be a shipping Lane it could be a bowling lane and I didn't really ask because I didn't really want bumpers on bumpers off so you know if you're hearing this it means that he listened to it and he thought we stayed in the lane if you're not hearing this so I just want to show everybody I want to thank sheriff for supporting us and kind of letting us jump out try new things and investing in what we do here social media or public education programs he really we wouldn't be able to connect the way we do without without him and then of course um the other piece the director of public relations uh my boss uh Jennifer Crockett who literally we come to her with some of the craziest stuff and she's like if we justify it it makes sense and sounds fun she's like she's in you know but she's also like well you've got to sell the sheriff on it but you got me she's always she always has her back so thank you Jennifer so uh we're really excited about our first guest our inaugural guest for the first ever episode of the podcast um you know I've referenced Laura's stories earlier that she was writing for inside the star and and there was a story that really kind of we had some pretty incredible readership on it and it was about a uh a John Doe uh Cold Case that we had so he said you know what we you know people like investigations and they really like cold cases so we were really excited to have uh detective Ron Chalmers uh with us as our first guest from the uh Cold Case unit which is part of the Robert homicide unit um but before um we start interrogating Ron is it an interrogation yeah all right right yeah we can use methods we have to uh Ashley has a question so each guest when we get him in here where Ashley's going to kind of ask a question that's kind of of all of us that we're all going to answer it so we don't feel like the guest is singled out but just kind of like an icebreaker question to kind of get the conversation going and then we'll kind of get into the good stuff so Ashley it's your time you're the Icebreaker breaking the ice the breaker of the ice so question today I figure in the spirit of 10 56 we're learning sake is um best 10 coats like favorite one do you have a favorite wow like one you loved to say I don't know I I'm I'm gonna say 10 8 because it's a it's in service but it also has euphemistically means um like getting ready to fight if someone's getting 10A they're getting ready to go so ready for action also is the first one I could think of and I was shocked by your question jumped in I didn't bring my bring my stuff huh Ricky well seeing as that I'm just a civilian I wouldn't know anything about that no um gosh I don't know um I've got a list if you want to see it would probably be the most outlandish one that would never be used because if I were a deputy which should if we talk more about that you know exactly why I'm not uh it would be something absurd um but actually how about we'll do this how about I'll say my favorite 10 code is 10-4 good buddy and makeup I know you haven't worked Patrol with us so you might not know all of our 10 codes as well as you know the Reno one so feel free to use Reno 10 codes I was going to admit that uh although I took a test and passed it in my training I don't recall what the 10 codes are and interestingly enough they're different here than they are in Reno so my favorite was probably 1042 which was the end of shift I mean that's always yeah going home excited to head home all right I've got a little funny tidbit of about 10 codes um me and my sister when we were kids and we would pretend to play something like where we had a radio and we'd say 10-4 instead my sister would like to say 10 or 10 or Niner and I give her for it to this day like instead of saying 10-4 that's what I say that's awesome 10 or 10 or Niner a dumb little random things it sounds really good yeah yeah it sounds legit I mean I wouldn't think things don't have to mean anything I don't have to mean anything all right so good stuff so just something kind of to get going uh thank you Ashley for that so Ron Chalmers retired in May 2018 25 years with Reno just about 25 years were you ever run Reno 9-1-1 no but I had the shorts but not the food did you wear them today the boots I had no boots just the shorts okay and um yeah it was not a good look we're already off the rail so so are we in the lane though yeah so so the show obviously we're gonna pretty pretty popular a parody of cops and whatnot did you guys get like a lot of did people say that stuff to you all the time were the jokes I can only imagine it's all we ever heard there's a lot of special events in downtown Reno almost every weekend in the summer there's some major event bringing people in and when you work those events all you ever heard was Reno 911 and then I got out here and people are like hey you guys really wear the shorts yeah I was like are you serious I'm not joking because no we don't wear the shorts but so is that like a where so was that like a feel about that like was that like a hey we're going to do this show like do you have any insight into that or I mean I've heard rumors and the story that I've heard is that the producer of the show was up in Reno for one of the events uh was intoxicated and ended up in jail for jaywalking or something very stupid and was very angry with the Reno Police Department and so that was why he chose to uh name his fictitious Department after us it's actually the Reno sheriff's office so I typically say well actually that was pretty spot on at the Reno Sheriff's Office not so much Arena PD but they would typically show the Reno Police Department cars and everything's in Reno and there were some very funny episodes obviously oh yeah it was hilarious what perfect Revenge though I love it it was it was uh we definitely he got the last laugh for sure definitely definitely all right so um so you retire there in May of 2018 as a sergeant right and then you you come to Florida you know but let's let's close the Reno chapter first and we'll talk about all the cool stuff we got going on here so what did you do at Reno like 25 years did you make your way around the agency what sort of things were you involved in yeah I don't know if I like your characterization of making my way around the agency but um yes no I I think I did uh several different jobs there I mean in Reno everything starts with Patrol so you start off as a patrol officer I worked about four years doing that I went to my first detective assignment which was an undercover plain clothes career criminal unit where we did surveillance of of people who spent most their life in prison doing crime uh from there I went to Robbie homicide and I spent about 10 and a half years as a detective and uh super promoted out of that unit went back to patrol because again you have to start back in Patrol and uh went to our drug trafficking team our sex trafficking team for a couple of years and which was very interesting we did a lot of good work I think and then went back to Robbie homicide where I retired as the sergeant and then in between our SWAT team is a collateral assignment it's not a full-time assignment out there and so I was on swap for about 11 years during most of my time in Robbery Homicide very good and so you mentioned uh like sex trafficking things like that obviously I'm sure a bit of an issue out in Reno uh given the environment and stuff out there what you know what what did that was that something you guys focused on specifically um you know what did that look like that enforcement no it's a great question we actually so our primary function was kind of a street level drug team um and then we were tasked with prostitution stings uh in between and then right as I was the sergeant sex trafficking became more of a Hot Topic I don't think is a new problem but it became much more aware in the community and so I had testified before the legislature down there we changed some laws in the state of Nevada to bring a lot more attention to sex trafficking I did a lot of community presentations and brought a lot of light to it we did some good work we recovered a 12 year old girl that was being exploited by family members that had come up from Sacramento and so we did I think a lot made some pretty good impacts and and so I'm proud of the work that we did during that short time that's good also they're able to be responsive to you know some of the issues were coming up that the community was concerned about so that's that's good stuff so 11 years in swat um and then I have another note here that I really want to hear all about but within a reason because we're trying to keep this short so Ron is a recipient of Reno PD's Medal of Honor and he also received a was one of ten top cops recognized by the National Association of police organizations for a particular incident so um first of all that's that's incredible I as I understand it you and your partner receives Medal of Honor from the police department and you're the only two living recipients correct which is just a crazy thing to think about but talk us talk us through that what what happened what occurred sure and it is it's a long story and in a lot of ways it's very unfortunate because I think we failed that day but it started off with just a simple traffic stop by a patrol officer who stopped an individual that was uh sort of an anti-government he was an ex-felon but still possessed Firearms he didn't believe the government could regulate his living so he chose not to sign the citation he fled as he was fleeing from the police department he caused a major traffic collision officers were dispatched to the registered owner's address when they got there they surrounded the house he was yelling at them out the window and ultimately fired a couple of shots from a shotgun out the back door in their direction from their vehicle no this was he had already made it home by the time the officers had responded got it so when they got to his house his vehicle was parked in the driveway and they attempted contact and then that sort of what escalated things obviously the shots from the shotgun ultimately led to them requesting SWAT which is why I responded when I got there I met with a bunch of people in the backyard that's where he had fired the rounds from they had directed me to replace one of the patrol officers but they told me they couldn't get me there was an open backyard with a lot of vehicles so you can Envision what that looked like but ultimately they told me when he goes out to the front and starts yelling at the officers in the front you're gonna have to run across and replace that officer it's a pretty common practice we'll replace that inner perimeter of officers with SWAT officers and as we were waiting he became very agile started yelling the people who were there when he fired the shotgun rounds through the back door had told us and warned us that that's when he fired last time is when he was real agitated so we confirmed nobody else was in the residence they were pretty confident with that and then about a few moments later I heard a gunshot and I saw the officer clutch his chest that I was going to replace and fall to the ground I remember seeing blood come out so I knew he had been hit that it didn't hit him in the vest or stopped with the vest there were some officers on that side of the yard but because of where the officer fell out in the open they were hesitant to go get him so my SWAT Commander that I was with he decided that they were going to put some suppression fire into the residence my partner and I would run across the open backyard and pull the officer from the line of fire which was great and then as soon as they started firing we started running next thing I knew I got to the downed officer and I could see the holes through the back door and was expecting to really start taking gunfire at any moment and ultimately I was able to he was a larger man and I was able to drag him to the back of the parked Vehicles get him some cover they were able to use the board that was in the backyard to load him up as a gurney and start to evacuate him further out we had to pass some more open Windows which ultimately I ended up putting some suppression fire into those open Windows to keep his head down and the officer was transported to the hospital unfortunately he did not survive he passed and we had about another four hour standoff with the suspect until ultimately we lit his house on fire and he surrendered and was ultimately convicted of first degree murder of a police officer and died in prison um but yeah so it was a it was a pretty rough day it was uh definitely interesting I found out later I didn't realize it at the time that as we were running across he opened fire with an AK-47 on us and fired 30 40 shots as we went across the backyard and the SWAT Commander he was seeing a muzzle flash so he was putting rounds on the muzzle flash But ultimately it ended up being a mirror that he was seeing and so he was shooting in the wrong direction of where the suspect was so he was had a pretty clear view of us as we went across the yard that's incredible that is that really is you know amazing heroism like what is going like first of all a simple traffic stop I picked up that you know there's so much uh you know people talk about traffic stops and and you know routine traffic stops and it's just kind of that's an oxymoron all by itself it's something very simple that happens millions of times a day probably and it can go so so South like in that moment this is this is just it just boggles my mind because I'm I'm not a cop you know but in that situation like you're a human being so there's that hesitation of if I go do this this you know what is going through your mind when you're running toward you know not just the sound of gunfire but like you know the source like this this officer is already down he's obviously able to see where his officer is to aim re I mean what's going through your head you know in that situation it actually was Far easier really I had full faith and trust in uh the SWAT officers that were there that were going to put the suppression fire into the residents uh leaving the downed officer out in the open was just not an option and so really as soon as they said hey we're going to put some rounds in you guys go across and get him out of there and as soon as I heard the first shot I truly don't even really recall anything until I was picking the officer up and it was only at that time that I could see out of my corner of my eye I could see the the shotgun blast through the back door and thought okay well here it comes I'm gonna I'm gonna take one here and hopefully it's nowhere good or it hits me in the vest or the helmet or wherever it goes and once we got him to the back it really um you know there's just not a lot of thought process I mean I think that's the benefit of training that's the reason why we train is so that you take away all that lag time and you just react because you've practiced it and you've practiced it and really that's what it was it really was just reacting and I would say the next four and a half hours we were sort of um hunkered down we couldn't get out of the backyard nor did we want to give up that that area but that was the most challenging is trying to keep an eye on the windows make sure that he doesn't present himself while not exposing yourself and so that part was much more challenging and then hearing the news that he had passed at the hospital while we were still still up in the standoff those things were a little bit more challenging of course mentally but really I mean that's why you prepare that's why you train wow that's I would say you had a pretty extensive uh very interesting career and we're not going to talk about I'm sure the the crazy stories you may have from working in a sex trafficking unit and all those things a lot of casinos in the area yeah yeah we're not even going to go there because I've heard some of the stories I know they're not appropriate for their show so I won't even ask questions this here podcast so let's kind of move on from Reno and start making our way this way so you retire after 25 years you know was it just the right time for you to retire were you ready for a change no not at all as a matter of fact Reno is a great Community the department is a great Department uh the only reason we really left when we left was my daughter wanted to go to school out here we knew we wanted to retire out here we just weren't sure of the timing but for her to get in state tuition and she was a sophomore in high school and so to wait two more years it just didn't seem feasible then my youngest was going to be starting high school and so it was just one of those we figured that we would make the move as soon as we could the Nevada system requires three years of your high three is what they base your retirement off of and so it was important that I spent those three years in Robbery Homicide as a supervisor but as soon as those three years were up which is what the commitment was to the department we decided it was time to move but no I really wasn't done with law enforcement which is sort of how I ended up here right so there's just a timing thing it's worked out and know so was it always we're always looking at Tampa Bay where were you looking to what was the plan no we really had no idea we'd come out to Orlando on vacation every year my kids had competitions in Orlando every year and so we loved Florida I really thought we'd move to Orlando I remember playing with an alligator for the first time during a trip to Orlando and thought I don't think I want to live near those things so let's move to the salt water and play with an alligator well you know just why he was as interested in me as I was him and so watching his movement and ultimately I was hoping you're gonna say you were like an animal kingdom or something I was just an alligator a wild alligator okay because you don't have those in the freshwater in Reno right in different countries there's nothing really oh that's right yeah it's the desert so this is the salt water because there's nothing at all that can eat you in saltwater and I tell that to people all the time but it's a much bigger race right there's good things to get away from you sharks will get away from you okay I won't start don't you know me you know and Gators I don't like I don't want to be eaten by something I don't want to be eaten by it I just don't care to take the risk they don't come jump house I'm not going to jump into their house but all right so um ended up here weren't quite done like you know kind of said so what what transpired to get and we're very glad you're here but but how did you get here at the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office it's funny actually um somehow got connected with George Stefan a retired Chief Deputy on LinkedIn and started reaching out to him while I still worked in Reno and uh talked to him about maybe coming out here not sure what I wanted to do I knew I didn't want to work nights I knew I didn't want to work weekends I didn't want to be on call anymore and so I started looking at the courthouse here and they had a part-time position so that really interested me until I found out you had to work a weekend day and so I thought that's not good for me and I remember Chief Stefan actually saying what about Patrol Ron you know we work uh 12s and so you have every other weekend off and I remember saying well Chief when that turns into every weekend give me a call back he laughed and I said okay I got it and so I went to the courthouse at first and that was okay it was a great schedule but it just wasn't really the work I wanted to do I still really did want to help people and still be involved in something greater here and so I made it two years there and then the Cold Case job opened up and I was fortunate that they considered me and you know the rest is history as they say yes absolutely perfect position for you I was going to say a natural fit um so talk to us a little bit about the the Cold Case unit and kind of How It's structured obviously the Cold Case unit is not detective Ron Chalmers there's there's other folks and of course it's part of Robbery Homicide which is part of you know the hierarchy of investigative components we have but talk to us about you know the background you have on I know it's been back for a while it's something that um you know we have some cold cases outstanding in Pinellas County that I think we can touch on but um you know it was kind of a renewed investment interest so can you talk about that a little bit yeah you know I don't know exactly when that renewed investment came about I know that Mike ring who retired as a major here worked cold cases throughout his career even when he wasn't assigned to the Cold Case unit and did a lot of work and I was very impressed by his work as a matter of fact it was sort of disappointing to me when I went to the Cold Case scene it I expected there to be a lot of low-hanging fruit like Reno a lot of cases that didn't get solved you know unfortunately with volume we had to move on to the next one and I think there was some more work that could have been done on a lot of those cases and so I expected the same here when I got here I realized very quickly that a lot of detectives a lot of very talented detectives spent a lot of time working those cases and there was not a lot of low-hanging fruit so um but you know it's it's remarkable to me coming from out west police departments Sheriff's offices really don't have the resources for Cold Case units most of them out west are through the District Attorney's office and so when I got here to see the commitment by the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office and by the sheriff specifically to cold cases and assigning we have two full-time detectives that work those it really was very impressive to me that they're willing to make that commitment and it's I almost go daily with noticing how much it means to the people in the community when I get telephone calls from victims families or just people in the community who are friends with missing persons or victims you know I the word I use all the time is hope I hear the hope they talk about Hope and they're just so thankful that there's people that are still concentrating on their cases that they can pick up the phone and actually talk to and I think that's Incredible the Incredible service to the community and and it's an incredible um investment by the sheriff's department sure so you know first of all you know people associate cold cases with just homicides which is obviously not the case of the particular the one case recently that Laura wrote about was a John Doe case but you know kind of briefly just touch on how does a how does a a what makes a case a Cold Case well typically it's defined usually as a case that's gone unsolved for at least a year the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office the case remains with the original detective unless that detective leaves Robbery Homicide and then at that point it will transfer to the Cold Case unit so if you have a detective who's got an unsolved homicide from five years ago but is still in the unit they maintain possession of that case and they wouldn't come to us until they finally rotate out but you're right obviously there are some sex battery cases that qualify for cold cases for weapons involved anything that still Falls within the statute of limitations homicides missing persons and unidentified remains fall under our umbrella if you will cool and and you know there's so many details obviously investigations are all about the details so you know for instance when you did come in and you're looking at kind of the fact that there wasn't any low-hanging fruit you know what is it how do you pick a case to pick up I mean how many how many cold cases are there right now that are on your radar well we currently have about 55 on software I should say now 54 unsolved homicides we have a couple of Unsolved sex battery cases that still fall within the statute of limitations we have about 34 missing persons and then we have a couple of unidentified John does that most of them are homicide victims we just have yet to identify so how do you like where do you even start like you look at all this and you say what is the lowest hanging fruit of here or how do you prioritize yeah yeah and that is a challenge and I was fortunate when I first came into Cold Case uh you know that we had the 1987 murder that we recently made an arrest in and uh the detective before me Chris Lyons had already received approval to start genealogy work on that case so when I came in he told me hey this case is going to go to genealogy start getting caught up on that case start reading it um and then likewise my supervisor Rich Redmond came to me and said hey here's a missing person case that we think some more work could be done on would you look at that and so those two cases is as crazy as it sounds really consumed a lot of my time the first year I was in the unit and so in between that you start getting telephone calls from people whether they're family members asking questions other detectives who were formerly in the unit calling and saying hey you know here's this case I think this and I think that and so then all of a sudden I start looking into it and start reading it it's sort of what's kind of led me where I've where I've gone there's a private dive company or a gentlemen really that does Private dive work looking for missing people looking for vehicles and bodies of water and so he calls me once or twice a week to talk about cars or ponds and coordinates on other missing persons cases with me and is helping us look and so it's just I sort of am juggling several cases in the air at once but really you know to look at the cases you know with such detail as I do I can only really focus on a couple at a time so that I don't miss something and especially because I didn't live these cases I can tell you all about murders in Reno that I was out on for three or four days five days because I lived in I remember eight words these cases you know I'll read something and if I don't get back to it in a month it's a little challenging to remember exactly and so I'm learning to perfect my note-taking and learning to really coming through everything there because I mean detectives take tremendous amount of ownership over their cases and especially when there's you know it means people do that work and of course tell me the wrong way you know you do that work because you want to bring closure to folks and you want to you know bring that Family Justice and that person justice so it becomes personal oh absolutely so it's got to be hard to also kind of leave a case right that somebody else is going to pick up but I'm sure past detectives you know that put their hands in some of these cases we'll be glad to know that you're working on them so let's talk about um you know the genetic genealogy piece because that was kind of the Crux of the article on the the missing John Doe that Laura put together and that was one of the most popular articles that we had and inside the star we hear that so much commentary about that that's why we're talking to Ryan right now so um Laura let's do this so just briefly kind of summarize the case like what the case actually was and then we'll kind of go backwards with Iran instead of expecting him to walk us through the whole thing okay so just a quick the quick version so in uh March 8th 2016 um scattered bones were found in the woods near the Bay Pines boat ramp um just bones there were two teeth no fingerprints available anthropology at USF thought it was male caucasian 60 years old maybe between uh five eight and six one cause of death undetermined so um you uploaded some DNA to CODIS but there was no match right correct and uh there were some surgical plates in the body but weren't serialized nothing you could get from that correct uh you made a clay head you made sketches of the of the possible appearance now the detectives before me okay sorry I can't do any of the work before your time so stand up Giants you come in and uh and and where do you step in it's the same thing so you know as one of those cases that I saw the clay head when I first walked into Robbery Homicide uh the clay head had been sitting there on their uh credenzas since like I said I started and so I knew about the case a little bit I started looking at the case and I remember going through the photos and that's sort of what I do first it's a little challenging I'm still sort of learning my way because I never worked cold cases before I always worked fresh cases and so really for me I tried to approach all these cases as if they were fresh and so I start with the photographs and start going through the scene just like I would if I were out on a call out and start looking for what stands out to me before I read anything I I think it's an important fact if I read something whether I want to or not it sort of becomes ingrained in my memory and then I adopt what somebody else saw that's interesting so you're almost doing your own investigation as if it was from for sure from the beginning yeah for sure and even you know in Reno with a cold case that I had the one murder I didn't solve initially I know people came in and looked at that afterwards and I remember telling them Hey listen you know don't let me lead you down a path my path has not solved this case and so if I lead you down the path you're likely going to end up with the same results I did you know I want you to look at this from your own perspective in case you know I missed something it's not about ego it's not about anything else so look at it from your own perspective look at it from your own investigative techniques and experiences and figure out what it is that I miss and so I do that here I'm not very concerned necessarily about what other people thought so I'll look at the scene I'll make my notes I'll write things down and then I'll start reading reports and seeing you know if I have questions remaining from what I saw at the scene and so in this case I started looking at the pictures and what really stood out to me was the the wristwatch that was left and found at the scene with the scattered bones and it was just a brand I hadn't heard of before and so I thought perhaps I could do some research on the watch and so I remember you know looking for the sale of the watch going through pawn shops and trying to see if somebody had pawned that watch and just doing a bunch of work on the watch and ultimately it led nowhere but later on that became important when we finally did get an name because that's that's all good stuff but there's details you know so obviously ultimately you know what cracked this case was genetic genealogy piece which is relatively new um you know we we hear it you know we've heard it before we you know we hear folks talking about it but you know the general public is really something new so you know their exposure to that is you know like 23andMe and ancestry.com but it's really an up-and-coming um very much a mainstream technology to help solve some of these cases so talk about uh if you can just kind of the cliff notes version explain what that is how that works and of course how it contributed to this case sure well I mean first and foremost I guess it's important for people to understand that it's not really 23andMe or ancestry although that is two of the commercial businesses that uh sell a genealogy product for us to actually be able to see the results those people have to consciously upload that into a DNA database uh either gen match or family tree DNA are the two biggest that we search and so people need to recognize that it's not really big brother I mean the people who are opting in they have to make that conscious decision to opt in to allow law enforcement to see their results and for me I didn't know a lot about genealogy uh when I first started in gold case uh you know I know the Golden State killer was saw that was not far from Reno and so I was aware of it but what I was unaware of is I thought that it was the same DNA that we used in our criminal investigations so you know if I go to a homicide scene and the suspect stabs the victim but it cuts their own finger in the process and leaves a trail of blood walking out the door and we collect that and we can come up with a DNA profile and we can enter that into CODIS and see if that matches that's the criminal database and so I assumed that the genealogy we just took the DNA from the the CODIS database and applied it to the genealogy somehow and and Magic you know came out and I learned very quickly that's not what happens at all so for genealogy they're looking at a totally different area of the DNA than what we are typically looking at in the criminal setting so the easiest way it was described to me is it's like comparing fingerprints to Footprints comes from the same person they're both Ridge details but there's no correlation there's no communication between the two and so what they're looking at for genealogy DNA is just a completely different area and so the one hang up to genealogy that I have found is we have to have DNA extract we have to have DNA that we can send to a different lab and have them process it for the genealogy type of DNA and then we can upload that into the family tree or Jed match and start looking for family relatives and so I mean there are some really specific details to genealogy that doesn't make it the Magic Bullet of course but it's a a fantastic tool and so ultimately what they do is as I understand it because I'm not a genealogist but ultimately what they do is they turn around and they look at relatives and they can determine how distant a relative is based off of how many centimorgans they share with somebody now sent to Morgans I love that word yes I don't know exactly what it means but I love saying it you would like that word it sounds like a measurement yeah you know it's centimeters and stuff like that but and ultimately I guess what I tell people all the time is that you and I we all have about 7 000 Center Morgans and we get half of that from our mother half of that from our father so therefore our children will have 3 500 centimorgans of mine and 3 500 from the mom and then it just continues to get watered down by half with each generation in essence and so they can look at that Center Morgans they can kind of come up with a general relationship to the subject DNA and so they look at that then they can build family trees and uh you know in this particular case with the John Doe I don't recall exactly but I know it more than 20 family trees that they built and they're looking for intersections where the different family trees come together and then ultimately they can kind of pinpoint at least possible subjects and that's the thing about genealogy that people also need to understand is it's it's not a forensic tool it's really a tip these genealogists look at the genealogy results and they can sit there and say hey we think it's on this line can you go get a Target test reach out to the family see if somebody in the family can give a sample so we can see if we're on the right side or on the wrong side or likewise they can tell us you know hey we think it's possibly this person can you go get family members DNA to confirm it and then that's where the evidentiary side in the criminal case comes in is is we go get that DNA to confirm the identity on a missing person or unidentified like this you know there's not that concern as much but we can go back and do the the standard Str DNA testing to confirm what it is that they're seeing through genealogy so it's very simple very simple process I understand completely is interesting because you know I think that uh and I I think you'll agree with this you know CSI and NCIS and all these shows have just really oversimplified some of the work that has to be done I mean it's even people you know with fingerprints you know for example people think it's like oh you just scanned your fingerprint and then you put in system all the bloops happen and then all of a sudden bam there's a match right but it's actually here at the Sheriff's Office it's people you know at an aphis literally looking uh at the the ridge detail and the different little nuances of the fingerprint to to make that connection so it sounds like it's it's similar with genealogy you're just not putting it in a machine and you know it's not like a Jurassic Park with you you know you get the blood out of the mosquito and then the little cartoon I mean it's not that at all it's very complicated it is very which is which is what makes these cases um you know all the more interesting so with this particular John Doe um you submit the genealogy of the DNA rather excuse me you submit the DNA and they kind of do their thing how does that how do we find our way to identifying this person through their process so there were several steps uh originally it was actually very low probability of solving it through parabon Nano labs they rank it on a one to five score one being very likely it'll be solved in five not so likely and this came up before so it really wasn't very good numbers for us was that because of the quality of the DNA or no just really because of the number of matches and the distant matches that they had you know the closer they can get obviously the better it is so they determine that after they get the sample and run it correct and they see what the the top matches are and what distance that is to our subject and then they can make a determination and so in this case we did not have very good numbers some and then as people continue to upload that changes of course and so somebody had uploaded about six months before we actually made the identification which got us closer and so parabon gave me about 20 last names that they were seen in the family tree and so I went on to namus and missing persons website it started running all those names trying to find somebody who had been reported missing that might match up and still struck out and so again the case went cold until six months later when somebody new uploaded and although it wasn't that close of a match it just was a new family tree which helped them to really triangulate our subject and then they were able to come up with who they thought the person was and identified and gave me a name so some of these cold cases and and John Doe's are just one person submitting their DNA away from being solved oh that's just the one right person between that and I understand too that the Census records are always about 50 years behind and so here recently I think it was what the 1960 census was recently released and apparently that's provided a lot more information for the genealogist as well um and you know I know they're excited in 10 years they'll release another one and hopefully that'll open some more doors as far as them their ability to search because everything they do is public record searching I mean they're not digging through anything that's not a public record right so and in this case uh if I remember right this case was you know it was kind of it was working its way but then actually a new family member uploaded their DNA last year is that right correct and then that was kind of that was the connection yep and even though it really wasn't that close it was just another family tree that helped them to complete that triangulation and that was the one that really gave us the name that we were looking for and then when I received the name and I started doing research on it lo and behold I find a photograph of that subject wearing the wrist watch that I had done so much research on which really helped as far as the confirmation I mean that's just that's just good old-fashioned boots all around oh yeah right there so you you see that you see what is your reaction when you see that because you know you had there was that moment there was like this is it well it's very exciting to see that to know it's him obviously I still wanted to confirm it through you know genetic uh profile find DNA from a family member and try to confirm it for him but uh you know I guess the perfectionist in me started looking at it and saying okay what else should I have done that could have identified this guy a year ago you know and so the happiness of solving the case and figuring out who he was dissipates relatively quickly and I started okay what could I have done better could I have done this should I have done that now that I know what I know what could we have done and you perfectionist yeah taking the rest of us look bad tell us a little bit about him what was he like Robert Higgins what was his story well so he was a gentleman that spent most of his time up in the Northeast he had a family uh we ultimately found his daughter and she provided a DNA sample which confirms his identity for us but talking to her it was a fairly sad story he was a Air Force vet who uh was living a normal life obviously you know had a child had a girlfriend and uh it sounds like he struggled with some mental health issues and and one day his daughter said that it seemed like things progressed El one day he just left left his girlfriend she knew he had moved to Florida but did not have a lot of contact with him she said he would call once every about 10 years and one time she got a kind of an awkward greeting card from him it wasn't her birthday or anything but she said that really was the extent of her contact with him and she had some family out west that would talk to him a little more frequently every few years but other than knowing he was in Florida they didn't know much about him which is why he was never reported missing which is why I couldn't find him when I did the searches on namus and he just kind of lived a kind of a homeless lifestyle here while he struggled with I think some substance abuse and some mental health issues and and so really it is a fairly tragic story to know that somebody you know was passed away seven years earlier and and nobody's really looking for him it's very sad and he had died of natural causes we think I mean it's very difficult to say Obviously you know the medical examiner's office did an evaluation and they can only do so much when you have skeletal remains but I think based off of the heart condition that he had and some of the calls for service we had with him having heart issues and as a matter of fact the last contact we had with them the deputy specifically talked about the swelling of his ankles and him not looking well and in his declining medical assistance you know I feel fairly confident there was really no indication that this was a crime but you know so much time had passed from when it occurred it's it's a little challenging to say definitively but I think all the evidence that we have leads to him having a heart issue so not to go back a little bit but um you said that it his daughter submitted DNA so you could confirm but through genealogy it was someone that was more distant correct yes no she had not submitted her DNA for genealogy yeah it wasn't until I called her and I didn't even know that she was his daughter I started just doing research on the internet and came up with her name and number and called and started explaining why I was calling her and she was the one that said are you calling about you know Mr Higgins and I was like yes do you know him she's like yes he's my father so that was tough to you know have to break the news to her in that setting But ultimately she agreed to give me a sample so that we could do the the one-to-one comparison and and figure out and confirm his identity it's incredible yes that's good stuff amazing work all around you know from from from the first investigation to what was the deputy Valley who had taken the picture on the on the the fir yes absolutely he did a great showing his watch that was yeah so for our deputies listening out there document document documentary pictures of everything and Braun and his colleagues um may need it so um need to wind down a little bit but with that I think we can touch on which there's been a lot of a lot of great media coverage about it yeah we just had an incredible uh 1987 Cold Case it was solved the murder of uh opal wheel did I say that right I think so okay perfect um you know I mean you think 30 I'm not going to do Math on the Spot but that's a long time ago like 36 years is that right I don't have enough things 87. I can tell you that okay I'm a millennial it was 36 years tonight why didn't we have to be honest oh boy yes she was uh we didn't even plan that 36 years of the recording of This podcast yes wow wow so um that was a it was a story that that was really a little bit of you know inside baseball but you know it was a story that we know was not a story the case was we knew we were close and we were kind of excited for kind of a the rolling that out and then internally some of the documentation got posted online and Bam we had to talk about it sooner than we wanted to but that's okay that just happens sometimes it's still a great case you know either way we can talk about it now a little bit Yeah so um so this was um at the time she was 82 years old is that right correct uh and she was discovered um by a relative I think her sister-in-law sister-in-law yes uh that discovered her and I'm just going off of what I remember from watching on the news that's how I got information uh discovered by her sister-in-law and you know no immediate connection so just kind of as we as we wind down kind of walk us through and this was I know something that a lot of folks did a lot of work on over the years I mean over the course of 36 years they're going to but how do you kind of step into this case and how did you pick this one up saying hey this is one that is going to be of interest and something we might be able to do something with yeah you know and it really did start off in 1987 the deputies and the forensic investigators did a great job they collected hairs that were seen there on the scene prior to DNA DNA was not even a thought back then so they did a fantastic job they did a lot of interviews they did a lot of work on the case and they really worked it throughout again and then you fast forward to 2002 when Mike ring had worked these cold cases just because he cared about them and his interest in them and looked at that and said maybe we should send those hairs for DNA testing and then ultimately we came up with a DNA profile in 2003 it didn't match anybody and so it kind of continued down that path and when I first got the case I started reading and I saw an opportunity to exclude a lot of people or hopefully identify somebody through DNA and so I started really getting DNA swaps from everybody who'd been talked to throughout the past 35 years when I got it I went over to the medical examiner's office and obtained blood vials from people who had passed away that were named in there and sent their DNA in knocked on a lot of doors and collected DNA from people and ultimately it all just struck out and nothing new but again I had sent to the DNA in for genealogy testing back in 2020 and again we did not have real good numbers initially it didn't look very positive initially and and then the right person uploaded and got us a little bit closer and ultimately the genealogists were able to kind of pinpoint a few brothers that they thought was likely the source of it and then again the old-fashioned investigative work started going we did a lot of archive searching started looking at a lot of old reports were able to exclude one brother pretty quickly and and the other brother was deceased and so we couldn't forensic leaks exclude him but that kind of left us with one brother and and that's sort of the path that we went down and were able to get a sample from him a surreptitious sample um you know I mean I'd like to hear more about that the surreptitious part yes I don't know what that word means me either I'm glad I think that's what we would call uh various investigative techniques okay um well you know it's important to know I mean from my perspective if this person was innocent of it right the last thing we want to do is be intrusive into their life and waiting for them to discard something and and throw something away pick it up collect it and see if the DNA matches or doesn't match I think it's a a much better way of going about it and if we could exclude him if it wasn't him we would have excluded him and he would have never been the one he can go either way go either way true but yes uh you know everybody likes the idea and it wasn't my idea that uh you know some of our detectives decided to work with a detective up in Mississippi who owned a restaurant who said hey I'll give him a free meal and so we constructed a flyer and waited for him to park in public and put that flyer on his windshield offering a free meal and he took that free meal and it's just beautiful yes they mailed me a spoon and fork that we still owe them I have to imagine the people at FedEx you know screening the packages they're just like they have silverware in Florida I don't understand that's good stuff I mean and of course I mean and obviously it's not the first Cold Case you've solved but I mean one that's you know 36 years old you know with with family that is is still around um you know that's got to be really rewarding to be able to bring that in for our Landing it really is I mean it really truly was a team effort I like to say you know I was just driving the bus when I pulled in the station but uh you know the Florida Department of Law Enforcement actually funded the testing they were a huge partner they did most of the lab work and uh still I mean even before we had the genealogy results uh Melissa sudeth over at FDLE she had me send a bunch of property over to her and you gotta understand DNA people are are overworked and so typically when you call a DNA person you know they want the fewest amount of things that they can get to keep it manageable and Melissa I remember talking to her and saying hey I want to send you this this this this and she said okay why don't you send me this this also and it's it's for the first time that I think I've ever had a DNA person suggestions so she was fantastic FDLE was fantastic obviously uh parabon did the genealogy work and CC Moore specifically who's a very well-known genealogist did some phenomenal work uh on that case and and it really it really is truly a team effort wow that's that was just I mean that you know I've been here 10 years we've had a couple other cold cases but that was that was just really incredible so kudos to you and everybody and the team yeah yeah I mean and like you said I mean it's not just him you know I like that driving the bus when it pulled into the station but you know it wouldn't have been possible without the diligence at the front end of it it wouldn't be possible without the great documentation which is a theme we heard from the other John Doe case and you know of course all the people behind the scenes and you know that's the thing that for for us you know when we're doing public education programs and making sure people know that we're not just a bunch of cops right it's not just deputies there's support staff there's forensic staff a lot of folks that are involved in various technologies that kind of pull it all together and make it happen so it was that was incredible and and we're proud of of what you all accomplished and do every day because it's just really good stuff right and of course you know you have to throw a bone to the boss I mean yeah his commitment to cold cases and allocating those resources this case could very easily still be unsolved had you know those resources not been allocated and had somebody just tried to pick this up you know during their downtime it's very likely this case doesn't get solved and you can't put a price on closure that you can bring and just knowing what happened I can't imagine wondering you know all those years would actually happen so it's it's just great all around so as we wrap up with Iran we really appreciate you coming on uh you mentioned that there are 54 now uh cold cases we have those posts on our website by the way yeah but we also public can go and look up sometimes you know read about it so I guess with that Ron what what do you want the public to know about the work that you do or or anything they can do to help with cold cases well I think you know we've talked a lot about forensics we've talked about the different Sciences but you know key to almost all of our cases is somebody out there who holds a piece of knowledge that knows something about the case and so I would encourage anybody who thinks that they know something about a case or knows something but is hesitant for whatever reason to come forward that they pick up the phone and make that telephone call and and allow us to at least obtain the information and we can figure out you know the best way to navigate that information and and determine whether or not that information is good information or bad information as I said you know it's it's our responsibility to vet these cases and we try very very hard to do it as a non-intrusive as possible and and so I would really just encourage that relationship with the community and and the folks in this community to come forward with that information that they may have very good easy enough so anybody have anything else for Ron while we have him pretty good I think we're good because we can this could be a two or three episode podcast and we just keep talking if you feel like it you can talk about a couple of the other cases that you're working on now that you told me just briefly um the cinder block the uh yeah so we have a uh an unidentified woman that we believe is in her mid-20s uh that was found tied to a cinder block and floating in Tampa Bay near the Oldsmar power station in 1961 March 4th of 1961 and she's been yet to be identified and uh so we're starting again that how do I get these cases I had a family call me from Georgia who said hey our mom disappeared in 1958 we know she went to Florida and after that we don't know where she went and this description is relatively similar to her and you could it be our mom and so that's what again I picked up the case started reading through the case and and saw some things that could be done and with our success with genealogy I've talked to the administration about potentially sending her case in for genealogy work as well if we can get some more DNA extract and so that's sort of how we're going with that and but yeah it's a very interesting case you know 60 over 60 years and we don't have a name to go along with a victim and that's sad what is the oldest case on our books 1955 we have a homicide from 1955 and uh you know there's a very strong suspect in that case who's deceased and the detectives before me have done a lot of work on it and it's interesting to read it's you know the state attorney and the sheriff are out there knocking on doors themselves in 1955 and so it's very very interesting to read and hear them talking about Tire Impressions and and other different forms of science that were Paramount then that you know are not necessarily as common today so it's very interesting to go back yeah wow so even back to 1955 we were pretty thorough talking about Tire Impressions no absolutely that's good to know would a case theoretically stay open forever or okay yes absolutely we have no desires to to close any of these cases obviously you know we want to invest our time on cases that are are more likely to be solved and have the ability to be more solved and so sometimes that's a balance of looking at more recent cases but you know the downside from a Cold Case perspective is you know a case from 2010 is likely been looked at with modern technology eyes a case from 1987 may not so there's sort of a balance there okay okay good stuff well based on that I think we're going to have you back because it sounds like you're going to crack another pretty crazy case here maybe the next couple years a lot of good information out there so we appreciate you taking the time to come chat with us and thank you very much for being our inaugural guest I mean I mean it's it's kind of an honor to be the first one but we're honored that you you chose to come talk to us because uh it's kind of a new thing and you know historically cops try to hide they don't want to talk about uh you know some of the good stuff but it's all good stuff uh ronce we appreciate your time and thanks for coming in Ron Chalmers everybody so uh thanks to everybody for listening for to our first ever episode of 56 uh like I said we you're going to hear more from us we're going to do this a lot more bring some folks in I don't know who we're working on next but I know it's going to be good trying to be really good ideas we have some great ideas so we'll see um if there's anything in particular that you want to hear about or you have questions about or anything like that um we do have an email address and it is let's 56 at pcsonet.com get it I like that that's 56. yeah yeah l-e-t-s56 we really want to hear from you we want to hear what you think about the show we want to hear about your ideas for future shows and we could get one compliments no criticism I mean unless it's very delicious yeah [Music] um and then uh yeah we'll you know my good point where we'll we'll take questions for our upcoming guests maybe yeah so again thanks for listening if you're not already please follow us on all of the major platforms follow Ashley more specifically Facebook Twitter Instagram LinkedIn YouTube next door can I get all of them I think so I think so that was actually pretty good plan to do that but I did it all right thanks everybody take care thanks bye foreign [Music]