Aurora Theater shooter shooting victims and their families are upset tonight no one will tell them where the theater shooter is in January James Holmes was transferred to a new prison the fear of gunman had apparently become a Target on July 19th he bought a ticket to the midnight showing of Batman and the next day the Rampage on July 20th 2012 moviegoers at a midnight show were terrified when a gunman James Holmes began to open fire he fired with the intent of killing as many people as possible once he was finished 12 people had died and 70 more were wounded Holmes had never been particularly violent and many believed he had a promising future in Neuroscience he had always been socially awkward but managed to display strong leadership skills in class Holmes was able to hide the fact that under the calm surface he presented he had been harboring a fascination with killing others a breakup sent him into a deep depression and he became obsessed with the idea of killing a large number of people as he became engrossed in his plans his grades slipped until he was failing his classes and he cut himself off from his friends Holmes went to Great Lengths to ensure his victim count will be high he chose a theater with doors he would be able to lock and it was located in an area where it would take longer for police to respond he also chose a highly anticipated movie that he knew would draw a crown now we have we have better sound now before the sound was a little bit a little bit uh light and I couldn't quite hear as well as I'd like we got stuff on the sound but but if you want to pull up a little bit that's fine but whatever you're comfortable with okay how was your night good day I see what you mean about this room being or your room here being much smaller yeah um and you don't have a regular bunk the bunk is down on the floor right you know what I'd like to do before we get started I would like to test your eye your eyes a little bit we talked about the dilated pupils I want to check the constriction of them with the flashlight stuff like that okay okay great if I can get this little flashlight working so if you just look off into the infinity there for a minute I'm just going to look at your pupils a little bit all right I guess now um I'm going to ask you to look off and focus on that restroom on that yeah that showers on Focus there and then focus on my finger and now out there now on my finger good thank you everything was normal by the way make a little note of it did you think of any questions or anything about our our sessions yesterday that you wanted to bring up okay homes moves stiffly with a frozen attempt at a smile on his face he may be medicated do you remember what we were talking about when we left off don't feel bad because I'm not sure either let's just jump in here I know we had talked a bit yesterday about the time that you were pretty depressed particularly in December of 11 I think right what's the time in your life that you've been absolutely the most depressed around that time any other times in your life that came close to that oh I know okay and by depressed I mean down blue sad maybe feeling hopeless yeah okay how about times in your life when you've thought of killing yourself or hurting yourself I remember asking about that yesterday but I'm not sure if I asked at any time during your life um in other words any other times have you ever tried to hurt yourself or kill yourself uh just Paris suicide and what do you mean by parasitism not going all the way through is it yeah Holmes made his first attempt at age 11 when symptoms of his mental health issues first began to surface and what was it that that you did that didn't go all the way through what was it that you did may I ask well I kind of saw that my wrist yeah with what a lot of cardboard how old were you uh early teen early teens okay can you tell me what was going on in your life when you when you did that sounds like you probably felt very bad um it was when uh I had to move back to San Diego having to change environments is very stressful at that age it can be harder to adjust to new patterns and forming friendships as an outsider is difficult the stress of the move may have triggered Holmes's symptoms I recently released another exclusive patreon video exposing a chilling incident where a man Unleashed his rage by committing a shocking act of violence against an innocent 15 year old his heart-wrenching video shows interrogation of Cody The Man Behind this horrible crime watch the full video and more at patreon.com stranger stories Plus and I recall you're saying you didn't want to leave your friends right did you do that after you moved back or before you moved back on the trip in on the trip and where were you can you tell me more about it what happened I was in our man on the trip tell me more uh well I just felt ignored ignored in what way in the decision to go back to San Diego so you're in the van tell me the process if you will um I don't know if there's a process to it or not where were you sitting well how did people discover what you were doing oh they didn't nobody ever found out about it tell me more about the sawing as you described it and what kind of cardboard it was there's a lot more to this I think this is in a moving box I'm not I'm not getting the whole the whole video of it can you describe the video of it uh well there's nothing else to say about me not for you maybe but I'm I'm appearing some missing things like where did you cut how bad was it all kinds of things like that not the wrists um it wasn't bloody it just broke the skin you felt like no one was listening to you do you remember what you thought might happen as you were doing it and no one ever noticed the abrasions or the anyway so there's a line there that kind of masks too so if I were to ask your mom or your dad if you'd ever done anything like that they would probably say no right this would have been a strong warning sign for Holmes's parents unfortunately Holmes was able to effectively hide his attempt during the distraction of the move preventing him from getting help early on why did you not tell somebody I don't know any guesses uh my thought is a private pain that you were feeling maybe that's not your thought if that reminds me of keeping a pain inside oh yeah not discussing did you do that with pain a lot over your life keep it inside and not discussing what kinds of pain have you kept inside physical painting is tell me more if you can I don't know show you what kind of pain have you had that you've kept inside over the years no pain over the years none that I recall you've talked here about lots of things that trouble you and are painful inside you've already talked about some of them so I know they're there yeah I didn't feel like disgusting it here or before of afford can you discuss it here the pain that's inside that was inside whether it was in school or other times well there's nothing to discuss I disagree I think there's a lot to disco what do you suppose is kind of keeping you from discussing well then I've always kept it inside yeah you don't want to bring it out right now um if I could recall what it is so it's you're saying if it's not that you don't wish to bring it out with me it's that you really don't have any memory of that no you don't have any knowledge of that right any kind of pain that you've kept inside how about the the Frozen things the shyness and awkwardness that's well we already it's so troubling to you that would be one example it's okay to talk about things twice or three times oh okay yeah shrinks like to hear things lots of different times in different ways you've talked with strengths before you know that how tough is it to keep the shyness and social difficulty inside you and not talk about it Holmes has a long history of social issues often unable to connect with others on a personal level he was genuinely quiet and withdrawn which can be isolating during the teenage years have you ever had the feeling that it might be helpful to talk about paying the tensile with somebody I suppose it couldn't hurt did you ever wish you could talk with anybody about it no there were times in your life when I think your parents took you to somebody to talk about things right I can think of a couple maybe they're not quite what we're talking about do you remember those times uh yeah I was an older therapist I just ended up not it's interesting your folks apparently thought that you were hurting inside that there was something I don't know if it was because of me or it was just family therapy so and we're talking now about the fellow named Mel yeah yeah what what was it that got you all to see mail well I think it was my mom's sister you're pretty young at that time am I right oh you read your teams okay so you likely had some idea of why she wanted the family to go see Mel what do you suppose it was he built a stronger more connected relationship with each other was there something that wasn't strong and wasn't connected in the family at that time not really you know then why do you suppose she thought that it needed improving see I don't know why she when you went to see Belle what happened in those sessions um I don't remember do you remember anything at all about the sessions what the building looked like what the office looked like it looked like a typical office for me and then the room had bookshelves okay remember how the family sat in the room how did how did the family sit on a couch together what might the family have been talking about what does it make what is it logical to speculate that they might have been talking about Mel telling the story about how he got hit by a car riding his bicycle and like got all mad at the guy because he didn't apologize so so that was Mel's story so I don't know the story I don't know what I want to make of the fact that you remember Mel's story but not the more important story and that would be your family's story because I guess our story never came out your story never came out how many times did y'all see Mel 10 times 10 times lots of ton there's lots of chances for the story to come out what what was it about the story that made it not want to come out oh okay I guess because they're not very sharing Holmes is more reticent in forced situations but he was very forthcoming about his feelings with at least one girlfriend who was concerned about his obsession with violence is it just you or was nobody talking nobody wanted it to come out I think my mom was talking but I don't know what she said if you had been a sharing person what might you have said was that a time when you were pretty uncomfortable uncomfortable in that way I'm not sure I'm not sure because I wasn't there but there was something that drove your mom or suggested to your mom that going to see Mel would be a good idea and that was pursued for tin hole sessions yeah what was going on in your life and you and your mind and yourself at that time like what yeah games uh Sports and refresh me if you will what games and what sports soccer that was a while after you came back to San Diego right or was it just after you came back Saturday I don't think it was a long time out there one more try what might there have been going on in your part of the family your life in particular that might have contributed to Mom saying we need to get some help with it so you weren't part of her reason um I felt that I think I was part of the reason and in what way might you have been or were you part of the reason well because I'm part of the family we're getting into kind of a tautology here yeah it's getting circular when Holmes is confronted by the fact that he may be the reason behind the therapy sessions he becomes uncomfortable and tries to deflect so he does not have to admit it to himself I don't know her reason for starting therapy I don't either because I wasn't there you're the only person in the roof who was there yeah I don't know okay I asked you about yourself and being depressed and and the thoughts of hurting yourself has anybody in the family ever been severely mentally ill or severely depressed and my extended family here mother father brother sisters Aunts Uncles cousins grandparents a couple times but I don't know why did you know him that's all only when I was very little did he pass away when you were little and you didn't know him or is there some other reason you didn't know um what so far as you remember were told or figured out what was his difficulty um they didn't tell me what do you think depression he was hospitalized as he said that's what my parents told me so far as you know one way or the other did he die by his own hand by committing suicide um no I think he had cancer or something anyone else in the family been in a mental hospital or had a significant psychiatric issues or problems um I am so on my father's side that would be Betty Holmes yeah yeah tell me about your Aunt Betty um she uh has paranoid illusions it's a kindly loving and okay what do you mean by paranoid delusions uh in terms of her she thinks there are people that are after her has she been hospitalized before when was the last time you saw Aunt Betty um a couple of thanksgivings to do what do you remember about that that meeting that thanks again wow normal Thanksgiving okay remember anything remember anything about it Betty excuse me uh no when you say a couple thanksgivings ago it was before you arrested right right would it have been the Thanksgiving before you were arrested that is give or take November of 2011. do you after he went to grad school okay that's what it was before I went to that okay you don't know much about granddad but you do have memories and interactions with Aunt Betty are there any ways that you're similar to or quite different from and many um well I used to drive around a lot he doesn't use your card but it stays matter Living Essential so that's the difference yeah okay tell me some more differences or similarities uh she doesn't talk very much either he goes in bed like at seven o'clock which is really early any other differences or similarities any speculation about why she doesn't talk very much you think she's a shy and awkward person you've used those words to describe yourself Holmes shares several similarities with his aunt although there is no evidence to suggest she was ever prone to Violent thoughts or Acts I don't know if he's awkward or not but it's easier so is there anybody in the family that that you feel some similarities with you often hear people say I'm just like my grandfather I'm just like my uncle I'm just like my dad or something like that I understand like my dad more like um in what ways can you explain that to me um both kind of have a bit of both CD OCD meaning whenever somebody uses terms like that with me I always ask what do you mean by OCD or obsessive compulsive as well like being tested is detail-oriented any other similarities either within the OCD concept or something else um my dad's more introverted in the next career and kind of like me too is your dad a happy guy I know that they're upset that this has happened to you and that you're in the situation that you're in but other than that um you feel he's a reasonably happy guy yeah he's happy okay how about differences between you and your dad um he's very mathematical discovering Social Security statistics we're not mathematically inclined yourself even though not solely mathematics are you a happy guy I know the situation is very very difficult but right now not right now that's fair let me kind of rephrase before you're arrested say as you were in graduate school were you a pretty happy guy or no uh no it's email and we know we that you had some depressed times in between those depressed times were you still not happy or were you pretty happy I'd say I was happy in between depressing okay how about banking College I said I was happy there happy what were the things I'm tempted to say the differences but what were the things that made you a happy guy back in college and a less happy guy in grad school uh there was less public speaking okay Bliss necessity of public speaking in college anything else so public speaking brought happiness to an end for you and that says essentially what you said um it made me kind of unhappy how is public speaking so powerful that it brings an end to happiness for James home I was that powerful of that distressing quote uh because I worry overseeing the right confuse anybody else in the family Chad significant psychiatric or psychological problems as far as you know I think my dad's father also had like a CD and what brings you to that thought uh that's just what my parents said because I was little in Italian too so both your grandfathers passed away when you were little yeah I'd love to grandmothers being lived a lot longer any difference between the way your dad has relationships with people and the way you had relationships with people up to the time that you were arrested so I don't know about my dad's relationships what is what do you see in your dad these are the other people that's a kind of obtuse way of to ask it I guess but Holmes doesn't have a great deal of information about some of his family members but that may be due to his age at the time of their deaths or how often he was able to interact with him you see him with your mom you've described what he's like with your mom you've seen him with other people perhaps he's talked about other relationships within and without the family how is that similar to or different from your relationships yeah I'm not aware how his relationships does he have does he have friends yeah did you have friends yeah was the way you worked with or interacted with your friends similar as far as you can tell to the way you're dead interacted with his friends or different or similar but it is about how many really good friends did you have up to Mid July of 2012. here's an odd question how old do you think your dad was when he married your mom do you happen to know or no uh late 30s late 30s do you know if they knew each other in their 20s I think they read it equally tennis game their introductory tennis what was the story of their if you know it the story of their relationship and their courtship of an eventual marriage I don't know that much about what happened after that okay did you ever have thoughts of marrying or having a family yourself uh yeah tell me about those thoughts supported my kids through their life what other pictures or fantasies or thoughts did you have about a future with a wife and family what was the question what other pictures or thoughts or fantasies did you have about a future with a wife and family um I didn't really have much stuff when you were going with gargi did y'all talk about a future together or was it not that close a relationship um she said she didn't see a future together the girlfriend Holmes is referring to have become increasingly frustrated with his possessiveness as well as worried about his violent fantasies she encouraged him to seek help but when he refused she felt as if they would not be able to have a sustainable relationship really yeah wait in the relationship did she tell you that when she broke up with me what would go into her saying that to you and breaking up with him speculate for me you're a smart guy speculate for him oh yes you can thank me what would have been lacking in a family life with you if anything what do you think all the ample conversations when you were with her was there ample conversation there was enough you've said before several times that people you're close to you're much more facile with conversation than people that you're not close to right okay you were pretty darn familiar with garki all right so what was the conversation with like around what was the conversation like with gardening all right talking with many people you have you answer in a few words you use the word concise you don't volunteer much on your own right what's the difference between that and the way you were with gargi or was it similar with Guardian I guess it was similar then I'm confused um you said things were easier with people you're close to am I misunderstanding suffering I'm missing something oh I still didn't talk excessively where I talk to more okay would that be a difference in quantity but not a difference in quality or is that not a reasonable way to describe that is the quality of your let's just say conversation is about the same but there was a little more of it uh yes is there anything else about you that you think might have caused gargi to say I don't see a future with you did y'all ever talk about a future together at other times in your relationship tell me about the breakup and how you felt when the discount suddenly or did you see it coming how did you notice it coming well she was acting more distant how'd they make you feel uh sad tell me tell me about Sam Paul said that the relationship was in me had you ever felt that kind of sadness before a particular kind of said no this was the first time you'd had a relationship like that I think you've told me right my home's age at the time most people have experienced some form of breakup for homes it may have felt like a miracle that he was in a relationship at all and when it ended he cannot see the possibility that he would be able to find someone else so what's what's the sadness that goes with that kind of breakup what's what's that sadness like uh debilitating yes that was my Rose thank you two big words can you break them down into smaller words and longer sentences debilitating morose just that I didn't feel as energetic as usual how did your life change if you didn't feel energetic and you were debilitated morose did you what did you do I did more escapism watching TV than anything watching TV anything else we're listening to music and once again the kind of music you listen to primarily technical trans and what kind of TV uh tell me what comedies that's interesting Arrested Development a Big Bang Theory Louis CK the first two I'm pretty familiar with I've never watched Louis CK he's kind of a pessimistic comic so is it stand up or does he have a situation comedy situation uh it's kind of going through his daily life but he's also done standing you think there's any significance or excuse me lack of coincidence about those three comedies a pessimistic comic Big Bang Theory and arrested development in particular reason you think you like those three comedies um all their humorous well sure anything else uh we think of um the media homes chose to consume after his breakup isn't what one would expect of someone with his obsessions in fact choosing comedy to help get over a negative experience is a normal and healthy response kind of mirror in my situation sometimes that's kind of what I was wondering can you tell me more about how they may have mirrored your situation uh well the Big Bang Theory is about how this family mattered interacts with Penny and they have relationships that started into so of the characters on Big Bang Theory I promise you I know them all because I watch a lot of Big Bang Theory oh really yeah so the one you picked to talk about initially was Leonard okay all right are any of those characters kind of like you or you kind of get into a particular character so what's Leonard like The Big Bang Theory suppose suppose that I had never watched Big Bang Theory what's Leonard like families and he's kind of socially awkward as well how does he get along in life on the program anyway um we'll use it as adventurous with his friends do you have adventures with your friends did you yeah tell me some of the adventures with your friends uh uh History Museum I think is a natural history um like weird factories really okay of course Dino rich I'm not familiar with Dino Rich it's close to Red Rocks it's just that uh fossilized in Prince of diagonal dinosaur don't eat okay and the friends that you're speaking of can you name them for you yeah well they're in Colorado anybody else uh not for those troops first guard you down Ben Garcia Tim capster capscott is that right all right okay Joe Powell round quite a bit then yeah okay that's a little like though of course there were more than four people in The Big Bang Theory but there's Penny and all the guys yep okay the beer factory tour that's interesting tell me about that um forget the name of it but they make satire which is like my favorite Theory and they had like a bunch of samples throughout the tour you know to taste all their fears how did I know that it's a big part of it yeah be Adventures on Big Bang Theory are often social very social Adventures going to a bar or and where the folks particularly Leonard I guess are not sure what it's going to be like is that does that resonate at all with the adventures and things that you'd do with your friends uh yeah it sounds similar to them surprisingly although Holmes had difficulty inserting himself into social situations he did well once contact was established he was known for his leadership and teamwork skills in college to such an extent that his professors were impressed what's the most adventurous one that you can think of right now uh is going to a bunch of different bars on St Patrick's Day tell me about the St Patrick's Day bar hop the first bar I went to is a played a bunch of Irish music and had balloons they move into like uh kind of just normal bar based on the iron shirt and drink a lunch and then into a bar called Rock Bar everyone said music and dance floor and stuff and this was a St Patrick's Day yep okay do you know what year it was it was after you here at grad school of course what would it have been 2012 or 2011 or do you know um I think it was 2012. so would that have been toward the end of your relationship with gargi I'm trying to put the calendar together um um I don't remember but at that time you're all Palling around in the relationship with Garvey was was good or no yeah it was good okay Patrick's Day if I remember right he's in March right okay St Patrick's Day is when the relationship between Holmes and his girlfriend began to unravel this was sparked by an altercation between Holmes and a man who spoke to her while the two were on a date so of that group if you're the Leonard I'm making it a leap year now if you're the Leonard and garky's the penny the other guys don't have a girl does that bring up any any thoughts that have been Ben and Tim I'd have a girl and James did when guardi broke up with you and from what you say it was kind of a one-sided breakup she was the one that left yeah and then like a couple weeks there we got back together uh and then I broke up with her how was it that you got back together what was how did that work um I guess he wanted a non-committal relationship so I figured that was better than nothing okay so what happened between you two what was the relationship like in that second relationship if you will it was just like the first except I think you it was not going to be a future which means did you pretty much know that or did you have hopes that there would be a future same time spent together same intimacy or sex same enjoyment of each other how long did that last I think a couple of months okay so that would bring us up to roughly when me of 2012 right okay then you broke up with her right tell me about that uh well I just told her I wasn't happy I didn't want to do the relationship anymore was that the truth was that the case yeah in what way were you not happy and did you want the change um because I wanted uh committed relationship okay Holmes's girlfriend wanted a committed relationship as well but could not get past her concerns about his behavior especially his unwillingness to seek help and how did she take it how did the breakup itself [Music] did you miss her after that breakup no what did she go and do I mean did she what happened to gargi after that uh we stopped hanging out so I don't realize you did you stop hanging out with all that group or just stopped hanging out with garden uh the whole the whole group tell me about stopping hanging out with the group uh more activities together for a reason you're providing me too much I was 30 did the group call you up protect you and want to hang out or uh but they were all friends yeah what do you make of the fact that they didn't say invite you to go do things or did they maybe they do that's odd to me that you have three friends and break up with one of them Cuts things and kept it together sounds like they may have sided with Guardian gargi in some way I said or maybe that's not the right term to use it was more right left not participating Holmes avoids talking about how his actions contributed to the failure of the relationship a pattern is developing that shows he is not able to accept responsibility for his actions this is also shown when he tries to blame his friends for not staying in contact with him but it is more likely that he shut them out so you're saying it was more you that left them than that left you or am I missing yeah can you tell me a little bit more about that about you leaving them well I just didn't do any more stuff with them did you do stuff with other people precise rather than it yeah what other people uh Hillary I went on a hike with her that's Hillary Allan yeah so how did Hillary come into your into your life uh well I texted her to see if she wanted to hang out you knew her from what was science class do you texted Hillary and what'd you say so tell me about the things that you did with Hillary and what she was like I don't know I don't do much else is there a reason there was only one hike only one interaction she asked to see if we want to do anything else but by that time I had red hair so she was asking to do other things and what does your red hair have anything what does that have to do with not doing more things with Hillary like premiere in jeopardy you know what channel Jeopardy uh being my girlfriend to a murderer so at that point he decided that you were a murderer then I was going to be setting aside but maybe that's the wrong thing to do the part about you're wanting to protect her was she a pretty nice person tough to give up yeah and the reason that you gave her up was solely that you wanted to protect him sounds like that becoming a murderer was very important to you that one um to give up friends to give up the possibility of the relationship with Hillary how was that feeling that thought that set of thoughts developing in you at that point and we're talking about May June uh yeah I mean how were those thoughts developing in there at that point I can't assuming me interesting word can you tell me what you mean consuming that it became the main focus if it was a main focus what was it pushing out for making new friends so it was pushing School away from your life it was pushing making new friends away from your eye again I don't want to put words in your mouth is that that's right yeah okay did that happen all of a sudden or did that because can you put your finger on about when it may have started inside you when I first bought a teaser relief but I've got a timeline here about your mind stuff but can you tell me about when that was I think it was in me they're not positive okay so that's about when the thoughts begin to fill your life tell me in your words rather than my words sorry kind of take over what was the process that led to your buying the taser in the night what was that like guess what I'm asking um initially I rationalize it it's like self-defense did you think about the purchase very long or did it come to you kind of all of a sudden oh no it's all of a sudden what'd you know about tasers and knives up today how did you pick a particular taser that particular um I just looked at the different types chose it at random is that what you're saying did you research it at all I looked into different types and different price the research that Holmes did was very basic unlike some of the elaborate and detailed plans that were made by others who committed acts of murder on a large scale where did you look at it in the store online magazines online [Music] so what did you choose I chose a teaser that looked like a cell phone remember the brand name or the model hello and where did you acquire it where'd you get it uh Amazon your thoughts at that time you used the word restaurants but you thoughts at that time had to do with self-defense what was in your mind what were the pictures your thoughts or fantasies in your mind about self-defense that I would be attacked by what do those people look like thanks where are they what's the circumstance can you expand on that a bit uh just like walking down the street and those that brought me what do they take from me what did they do uh yeah what's the what's the video that uh deal with my money and stuff what happens to you after that um they can't because they do don't taste of them what would happen uh then I have to go through recovery the hospital we've been in some fights when you were a little kid because serious kind of play fight okay had you ever been that badly before no okay so the taser comes in the box marked Amazon in the knife with it and what sort of knife was it uh Smith and wrestling folding knife okay so if it comes in a box from Amazon what do you think um did you end up carrying him sometimes did you know how to use them how did you figure out or or assume that you would use them if the occasion erodes and and the teacher's just a button you press it louder than I thought it would be so you pressed it you tested it how many times um the teaser twice I assume there's a limited charge on it or was it rechargeable how did how did you test it I just press the button Electric so it was a contact taser with little points in there are in between them it wasn't one that it wasn't you said that the idea to purchase those things came quickly were there any thoughts about needing to defend yourself or wanting to assault to other people before that I don't know yesterday you talked about the Frozen situations neither fight nor flight and kind of Frozen in a social situation and thoughts came to you about nuclear winter and about the saw right was the first time you recall having those kinds of thoughts in early high school was there ever anything more specific I guess the saw is pretty specific but everything about wanting to get a weapon or wanting to kill people or hurt people no it wasn't realistic it was just kind of thoughts was anybody particularly Troublesome for you in high school or college for that matter somebody that picked on your head in for you or made you very uncomfortable no after getting the taser in the night I mean clearly those were the first weapons that you purchased yeah and the other reason I purpose was because Hillary had someone slasher or screen window oh I'm remembering something like that tell me more about that please she just said she almost had a break in so I would be prepared if I had to read did you advise her about being prepared no or this had more to do with protecting you than protecting her uh yes what's the next thought that you had that you can recall about getting a weapon or something like that defensive or off it then it was offensive morning tear gas and that was about when I don't know the other time yes I do I'm trying to I would like to verify the timeline and see if I'm not sure if you remember it similarly now to when you were actually this probably had to do with researching the actual purchases but I'd much rather hear it from you than look at somebody else's record if that's not always my purpose is it my purpose is to see what's in you 'll try to understand what to you so I think it was a major news remember the thoughts about buying the tear gas what came to mind what question to do it well I don't know how it changed selling protections really immigration Holmes had always had an interest in causing harm but until this time had never allowed himself to pursue the idea seriously I suppose tear gas can be both authentic and defensive but you're saying offense it is offense Ground Control remember what your thoughts were at the time of how of what situation might arise in which you might use it uh if there was a riot or if I started writing team and how would tear gas come into that it would disperse the crown and how is that an offensive move uh we're seeing someone to move can we take it a little further what how does that accomplish an offensive task for you if that's what you're speaking um I'm not sure my first thought is that it forces people to run away from me right this was why do you want to run away from so they wouldn't attack direct me that sounds defensive because it's all so what are you going to do as a result of their running away from what you're going to be I know okay you recall what roughly what the next things that you bought were um which handgun or what handgun did you buy uh Glock 22 40 caliber okay was this also online or did you get into the store order it uh trying to buy it online because it's cheaper online but there's uh firearm transfer there's a like we're Rocker seat to it in the afternoon all right so I just went to the in-store and bought it there you remember what store you went to uh all right they don't have Gander Mountain where I live so tell me about Gander Mountain what's Gander Mountain it's basically like selling camp supplies outdoor supplies uh as in the god section any particular reason you chose a Glock 40 or Glock 22 45 uh the 40 caliber has more stopping power 22 or 9 mil so that's why she was coming but less than a 44 or 45 why'd you pick for well as you go up it creates more recoil so that's accurate right here sounds like you researched that a bit how did you research just online searches you've got a Glock 40 with these characteristics anticipating what if anything um that I can use it for self-defense but then went towards other purposes other purposes yeah at the time if you remember what was the picture or the thought or the fantasy in which you might use it um well just did a mass murder situation here the late from self-defense to mass murder is quite large it suggests that the excuse of self-defense may have been a subconscious way for Holmes to justify buying those items that's different at least in my mind from shooting an individual person a single person who's near you or in the room with you he said mass murder tell me what the thought was oh did you have a particular crowd in mind a particular setting in mind at that time so going back now over two years what do you think the crowd looked like where was it what were they doing what was going on oh it was just a crowd it wasn't any specific setting to still abstract in that abstract in general was the crowd for example trying to do something to you or doing something else or oh they're just explaining about their business was there anything frightening about these people to you in the in the thoughts at that time yesterday we talked about a word that some people use to describe you inside as angry right okay as you were thinking about these things buying a Glock ordering material are you angry or what what's the Thought inside you at that uh apparently I have a mission to complete mission to complete that doesn't sound angry but maybe it is is angry in there anymore okay tell me more about the mission to complete thought um just say it was something I had to do did the word Mission come out of you or come from somewhere else not for me from me from you okay did they having to do it come from inside you or from somewhere else what do you make of that what what's the something you had to do tell me more about what that is like I was obligated to do in in what way obligated that there was no other alternative doing something else and what creates a situation where there's no other alternative uh depressed situation wearing transfer my feelings suicide to homicide what brings you to that explanation that the obligation came from your words depressed situation where you transferred your feelings from suicide to homicide where does that explanation or interpretation come from I just made it up imagined it one of the reasons that the jury did not accept Holmes's Insanity plea was the vagueness of his so-called Mission normally a person with this type of delusion has a clear idea of who is targeting or who they are trying to save the world from Holmes's Mission has no specific Target or source of antagonism is that what you were thinking or imagining at the time or you just made it up just now with me I have the time that's interesting to me a little confusing to me you just made it up and imagined it that it was a transfer from the suicidal to the homicide yes had anyone or anything taught you that that was a possibility or what what brought you to that conclusion that my Suicidal Thoughts would go away if I have homicidal thoughts or do homicidal things uh this is what I figured it would happen but you figured so a little earlier we talked about Suicidal Thoughts what were the Suicidal Thoughts like if you remember well I didn't have them because they transferred them okay the word unconscious comes to mind all right does that come to your mind too or not um then how do you figure you had Suicidal Thoughts because I was like almost catatonic what do you mean by the catatonic wait didn't have the drive to do anything other than what else does how else is catatonic kind of defined in your mind at that time or the half of that money a lack of energy is not willing to get up for a new anxiety more than you and that's the way you felt yeah in May June I think we're talking about it 2012. yeah um were you still going to classes at that time when did your prelims come on with those uh dude this was before the prelims yes were you stand in bed all the time or were you actually getting it years absolutely get up at this point you weren't seeing your friends anymore is that right right were you interacting with them by text or email or I am or anything like that uh really yeah and what what why'd you delete things uh because they can't figure out a friendship was over any reason not to keep them in your phone even if the friendship is over deleting number sounds to me like an active disconnection on your part yeah and I'm wondering what was the logic of that as contrasted with just ignoring them um well in a way but you did something active you deleted their number right of course you could have called him anybody or texted them anyway but the numbers were deleted from your phone huh okay okay um did they reach out to you or try to contact you or ask you to do things no no that sounds like a kind of a loss yeah four or five friends that you don't have them all in the course of a couple weeks all right did you feel a loss or sadness for that or not uh yeah what's that the president tell me more about the sadness depressed at that loss home still claims that his friends cut contact with him he stopped going out with them and deleted their numbers which points to him being the one to avoid contact uh I was they didn't go you dismissed them is that right um yes it sounds like a small distinction but it also sounds like a significant distinction those air Mutual abandoned me how did they abandon you uh well they stopped in how you need activities and stuff why did you think why do you think in their mind they stopped inviting you to activities uh kindergarten you didn't want to see me anymore so the group included gargi and because she broke up with Garvey it no longer including you right did Ben continue to text you or call you or contact you well uh I don't think so did you try to try to keep in contact or get in contact with any of them no we contacted deleted your number so I wouldn't contact them what else were you doing with your timer at that time what was going on for example with the video game uh well I was playing online versions or qualifying yeah how much we how much were you doing give or take hours per day a lot there you go what do you think of that um any other reason uh kind of Escape any other reason of the proportion weighing the proportions between I really like video games and I need to escape of that eight hours what what portion was I really like video games versus I mean I want to escape do you think I think the Escape was unconscious so they're really liking really in 99 of the conscious yeah if you include the unconscious uh you remember the opponents or colleagues online that you they're usually just random people so there wasn't a particular log on name or something like that that would come up that you would interact with in the games you know is it the rule and I don't play online games so you'll have to educate me a little bit is that the rule that there are so many people out there playing the game that you don't notice the different the the players appear random or is it more the rule that you would see this one in the internet at your particular level over and over again uh you can create guilds and Clans or add friends so that could play with them over and over again and you're talking about a particular game I'm not recalling the name of it yeah the main game I was playing bad news Diablo 3 Diablo 3 right okay I looked that up very confusing to me okay um so were you in Guilds and Clans with those folks okay we started this chain of conversation about the Suicidal Thoughts being converted to homicidal thought um but as I talked with you correct me if I'm wrong you weren't aware of the Suicidal Thoughts it was kind of an automatic conversion it is easy to become confused by Holmes's reasoning since he did not seem to have any ideations about self-harm at all did you believe at that time that the homicidal thoughts were converted from Suicidal Thoughts even though you weren't aware of the Suicidal Thoughts or is that something that you deduce after the fact I don't remember I guess it goes to the question of where's the mission coming from uh in your thoughts at that time where's the mission coming from as a kind of coping is that really the way you thought of it at that time I'm having a coping mechanism so um it just happened okay did you spend much time trying to figure out where the mission might be coming from or did you just kind of accepted here's the mission I'm sorry kind of just accepted pretty serious mission to just accept what do you think of the fact that you just accepted a mission of that seriousness once again you're a smart guy I didn't think it was all that serious tell me about that I didn't think it was all that serious when you've bought particular gas you bought the clock at that point yeah I didn't think of the consequences which consequences so you're at the beginning of actually carrying out physical things related to the mission right ordering them the weather are you saying that you didn't really think the mission was going to come to fruition or is that not what you're saying IO is preparing okay as you've got items um did you have any particular feeling or experience once the item was gotten well they formed an attachment to it already counted words Holmes still cannot fully Define his mission he has no strong goal or conviction I guess I'm asking sounds like you're saying there was a pressure pretty strong maybe impulse is not the right word to get the tear gas canisters to get the lock after you have gotten it was there any change in that pressure or that push oh no I just kept escalating to get more and more okay so getting the weapon didn't satisfy the let me say thought uh great okay I'm not sure I'm conveying that very well but let me just ask you what do you think I'm asking so we're kind of get on the same page um what are the weapons kind of fulfilling the mission on their own I'm sort of that's that's pretty close that's pretty close and I'm probably not articulating it very well often we have a the use of the phrase obsessive composite if I have a compulsion to check the door make sense right we will check it over and over again yeah once I check it the strength of the compulsion goes down for a little one does that make sense I'm satisfied the compulsion and it may be for a second it may be for a minute or a day but carrying out the ACT relieves the pressure for a farm I'm curious as to whether you experienced anything like that I would say yes because buy all the weapons at one time one single time they kind of pace through it going from compulsion to compulsion okay and you use the word escalation how does that fit in in this kind of thought well getting a shotgun is an escalation from just to hand them as you've got more of the equipment and you mentioned you didn't use the word Fascination I don't think but attachment that's the word you've used tell me about the attachment well as I got familiar to the gun I became attached to how did you get familiar with what was that process one I'm just taking it party assembly Union seeing how it worked so you did that yeah the attachment to the weapons themselves is unusual typically they are only seen as a means to an end with each of the things that you got or in certain particular ones uh uh boxes with the handgun I guess there are different levels of stripping a gun right it would like to take it down to the factory kind of assembly part but I just see the basic facilities did you get pretty good at it um well there was no reason really to get very good ending but I couldn't take it apart I'd put it there not many people can do that particularly people that aren't familiar with weapons it's like base stage do you recover the next things that you bought were I think it was a Shopkin and where did you get that locally or online I ended up getting everything locally uh like Bass Pro Shops was there any problem acquiring those different the firearms ammunition Etc any problem um they had it enlisted on Maryland check office people who are mentally ill can't buy they just have to be committed to an asylum or something to be turned a mental ill in their words that wouldn't have presented a problem for you right I thought it might be a problem in what way did you think it might be a problem if you'd never been in a I thought um it's their attention and fights fine may have diagnosed me as mentally ill and I wouldn't be able to buy anything ah the first time you went to see Fenton Fenton first it was Roth right what was the earliest you saw them I don't remember it was before I started buying the work okay and you thought maybe you were in some database or some record or something like that right it was a possibility did it turn out to be a problem um no so I could order the gun and get it basically an hour later how much ammunition did you buy at the time I invited bulk it's a thousand mostly local are mostly online okay was that ever a problem ordering bulk ammunition no yeah what else did you buy uh I'm sorry for me automatic yep did you try to convert it automatic did you think about it I thought about buying an automatic but there was a law that simply after a certain date you can't you can only form the automatic weapons you have you can buy new ones in the seats do you think about conversion kits um no I didn't because I've got to be too technical okay what else did you buy another handgun and what kind is it uh Glock 23 also 40 caliber body armor kind of interspersed with all this stuff too the body armor is another sign that Holmes was not suicidal so you have two Glock 23s I misspoke earlier I said 22 but no the first one was a Glock 22. the first one what's the difference between 23 and 22 for the same column uh the 23s shorter Barrel I think so they're almost essentially had around that time did you have any picture in your mind of what you would look like using those weapons yes when I took a picture of me holding the weapons tell me about this I don't know why to be remembered what were the pictures like a typical camera phone selfie pictures to be remembered what will people looking at those pictures think or see when they see those pictures you'd have to ask them no what do you think what do I think I think they would remember it because they were kind of unusual pictures and what do they think about the person in that picture yeah they're familiar in the ways of weaponry and you know many such pictures exist online to the point that most people do not find them remarkable at all Holmes is projecting his own thoughts and feelings onto others familiar in the ways of weaponry and body armor okay anything else that they infer from from the picture what might they infer from a picture that I'm going to kill her yes so start out with being remembered and some of the inferences are this is a person who knows how to use it and this is the person who's a killer any other inferences from the pictures that a person might have I just happen to have the pictures I think and what I'm going to ask you is what do you infer from the picture from describe forming one of the pictures can you know The Possession contact lenses and they're in color I mean all pictures nowadays are encounter black and white spirits you know I don't have the one of you in the armor um tell me again things that you infer from a picture of you in the armor with which weapon is it that you're holding I don't think I was falling down or if I was it was it's all rightful tell me again what you just said about the about the inferences you would make when you see that picture well they're the same as differences I think other people would make and they are oh this is a guy who's familiar with these things and this is a killer what a Killer looks like at the time he took the pictures was that a guy who was familiar with these things uh I would say basic knowledge it's time you took the picture you took the pictures was this a killer this is what a Killer looks like is that what though that's the way I thought tell me more about thinking of James Holmes as a killer who knows what he's doing uh what else is there and so how does it feel to be that person when you took the picture not today but when you took the picture how did it feel to be that person or were you trying to convey that and didn't really feel it I don't know it was just taking a picture you didn't feel anything we were taking the picture um right except there Do You Remember Violence figures there's a little disconnected do you feel a disconnect about I didn't feel those things but I wanted to convey but I knew that those things would be conveyed does that make sense what might it have been about the way you were then that you wanted to convey that even though you didn't feel it um I'm not sure how to answer that it might have been a bad question um but sometimes very often in fact people want to convey to others something different from what they really are or what they think they're there people want to look better they want to sound better they spin up a tale to tell strangers on a bus that's different from the way they really are sorry so I don't think that it's like an accurate depiction of who I am it was just a moment of capturing in the moment okay did you take other pictures yeah all at the same time or over time over time Holmes may have been trying to project a dangerous image but most people did not take him seriously at the time over roughly how much time um a month ago other selfies other pictures of the weaponry theater addresses and excellence folks in right now on you pictures of you pictures of the weaponry pictures of things in your apartment those were over a month or so no those were pretty much the daily and a couple days before okay here's one of the pictures that I've got no maybe that one yeah tell me about the guy in that picture oh he definitely doesn't look normal looks scary yeah I wouldn't want to write a new he's not the guy that Doug's should muck uh yes that's true he looks more like it's like oh it looks like a thug okay not a typical [ __ ] what kind of sub does he look like crazy but go into that a little way more okay it's a guy you're holding my other blocks you don't have a beard Yeah clean shaving before you got to Jill because he was doing a good Racers and you know is that how you started growing the beer that's fine to grow the beer yeah not as convenient to shake it doesn't work tell me about the red hair on the guy I've had that for a while it's artificial any particular reason that you dyed your hair a while before the people dye their hair all the time sure I think to stand out but I guess just stand out in what way what's the thought uh to stand beside normalcy real exotic videos around that time as I recall right I think so this was a quite as exaggerated okay have you ever died before no why'd you pick red I thought it would look better than green or blue okay and you mentioned the contact lenses tell me about the context all those just happened to on the day of the shooting otherwise I would have taken the pictures beforehand unlike whatever do you mean right I've never noticed it before are those contacts tinted a little red or are they black they're solid black color this clear how well can you see through this uh not at all the style choices that Holmes made suggest he was seeking notoriety rather than carrying out a mission contacts contacts are prescription yeah how opaque are they or translucent or transparent oh well they have the whole or the recognized so you can see but I can't see because I have because it wasn't prescription contacts okay you're a little nearsighted right about a minus four and a half or something like that my other party I don't remember so these particular cosmetic contacts have a little pinhole in the middle to look from through is that right yes yes interestingly that might serve to focus on the retina if it's a pinhole mighty probably neither here nor there um I'm assuming that you weren't wearing those contacts at the theater is that right that's great any particular reason that you that you ordered them but I thought they look cool okay they arrived just the day of the uh as we said or the day before the the day before the night that you went to right thank you that reminds me of something else I was going to ask there were a number of things that you ordered that arrived kind of at the last minute on the last day or the day before the last day were you worried that some of that stuff wouldn't wouldn't arrive or what kind of stuff are you talking about trying to think which things but the delivery time when some of them was within a day or a few days of of the incident yeah it would have heard of when it was going to happen so I guess they kind of got squeezed for time a little bit were you worried that they might all not all arrive in time uh no I think pretty much everything arrived would work good old Amazon yes another picture tell me about this guy in this picture and what it can be uh well that was a incendiary device that I made and I was kind of blowing out the fuse you were blowing out the views is that you were the fuse was not lit and you were blowing it but is that why the lips are pursed as if you are blind what's the expression on that guy's face what's that guy thinking or wanting to convey or infer hello I don't know what do you think and I get a similar feeling myself anyway from this one as well what's that yeah yeah just that he wanted to stay away from people one of the things that comes to my mind maybe I'm just odd is impish what does that mean there's an empty there's a certain there's a certain dangerous quality but a light-hearted dangerousness smiling that's not that's not a good way to put it maybe like a little devil but amp is a little devil okay percent resonate at all or is that just me I don't know where the little part comes in then a devil a devilish definition with regard to Batman I guess I think of the Joker 's hair did the Batman story have anything to do with your choosing the bad man premiere or not uh the main reason was because I knew it would be a blockbuster hit so there'd be a lot of people there that movie was one of the most anticipated of the year and superhero franchises are almost guaranteed to pull a large crowd there are other blockbuster hits this is a really big Blockbuster and Phil's Le Auditorium right do you think in retrospect if there was anything non-coincidental about your picking that Blockbuster instead of Avatar if it was it was unconscious you've tried to figure out unconscious things before what do you think that it Bears some resemblance do you think the resemblance is just coincident I'm not sure there's a similar selfie it might be the one I'm thinking about what's this one do you remember that one nope tell me about that one what's that guy you can also lose devilish anything else anything make it look additionally devilish to you okay what about the Tufts of hair on the side apparently chords is that on purpose do you think or was it on purpose I don't remember doing it on purpose okay because I agree with you there is an impression of that adds to the devilish thought and I was wondering whether you did it on purpose it was intended and your answer is okay this picture also has the tongue sticking out tell me about the tongue sticking out um they do how about that tongue anything interesting about that tongue it's your time anything interesting unusual about your tongue [Music] are you familiar with the Bible oh yeah okay anything about tongues in the Bible that comes to mind that might be relevant to that picture there's a part of the Bible and tell me if this starts to resonate with something that you know it may not that talks about the shape of certain people's tongues there are some people who can I think the biblical phrase has something to do with lap water like a dog and other people who can't although Holmes's family is Lutheran Holmes himself is agnostic and has no strong spiritual beliefs it is doubtful that he had any religious motivation dogs lack water because they can cut the end of their tongue and any is it I didn't know anything okay so as far as you recall that's that's not part of you look at your tongue in a mirror and say gee I'm part of the group the Bible speaks of who can lack water like dogs no okay and by the way I don't think there's anything inherently good or bad about that by the way my tongue feels the same you took pictures here about that one tell me about this one that's a picture of all the equipment I bought when was the picture type I think it was the day of tell me about the thought and the purpose in that picture uh it was just to show that I could buy all that stuff and nobody would notice anything else about that picture that a person looking at it might infer a few that is dangerous that's a lot it's almost like over a Kill by the time you got to the theater and got out and put it on you were pretty much wearing everything in the picture pretty much anything important about the color of the sheet the sheet if it would have been black you would have been able to see as well why'd you pick Sophie black and silky red cheeks by the way um tell me about these were in your apartment that reminds me kind of ask tell me about your apartment was 800 square feet another complete kitchen I don't know it was a good apartment it was close it was right next to the Ancients Medical Campus and that's where your classes and Labs were yeah so you didn't have to drive right yeah you did write it back sometimes did you ride the bike a lot or I would write it every day to work bring it up to the apartment at night yeah pretty good biker as a place to live in your apartment is a personal place where people live as a personal place what was it how was it personal to you or how did you make it personal to you um I guess by changing the lighting I had to change the lighting I put like red bulbs the lights and all of them are some of them so okay roughly when did you do that uh towards the end of the graduate school night are we talking amazing a particular reason that you personalize it with red light bulbs at that time did you know or anticipate or plan that the police would be coming to your apartment I figure to go to the apartment on a noise complaint the only thing of note the police had to say about the apartment was that it was furnished very sparsely and that there were very few personal belongings with the red light bulbs have anything to do with what people might find when they um curious which which Outlets were the or which lights were the red light bulbs in the lamp I think but how else did you personalize your your apartment what can I play I don't know it's important just my plan just your plan did you name your plant thank you okay how else did your apartment's apartment look on you were living in it over the months or a couple of years except to clean okay whatever uh message you because the kind of kept on my clothes on section of the floor on a section of the floor because I would use all the drawers for others for other stuff right so this is this is the section for shirts or something like that or just laundry you said you used the drawers for other things luckily um storing papers notebooks and stuff do you have anything on the walls uh Pulp Fiction coaster Samuel Jackson and uh that's his name I don't remember oh John Travolta which poster was Pulp Fiction I can picture the content but you might tell me what was the content of the Pulp Fiction poster it was in the scene where they busted the drug Runner guys and the guy had shot at them like 20 times and missed every single time that they pointed their guns at him what did he do when I find their contact we got shocked how about the Samuel Jackson culture what was the content of that that is oh that's the same I'm sorry the same thing what other things did you have on the walls I had one of those motivational posters challenge take your shot it says it's a dog whiskey okay probably not a good alcoholics because I had movie poster or Anchorman you kind of like that movie yeah the comedy I had a zombie brains booster anything else I think it had a model of a posterical model tell me about the model poster well she's a scantily clad how's scantily and what was the model doing lighting their kind of teasingly okay what else um I had a poster white guys always leave beer on the bottom shelf of the fridge and a girl bending them that poster was actually on the door to the fridge wasn't it yeah did you keep much alcohol in the apartment uh yeah so I will supply you there how much say was in the apartment in July uh there's like a case of Coors Light and two bottles of liquor how much would you drink in general over the months so I bring some of the beer with me different people mean different things when they say social over dinner with friends Holmes describes a fairly average apartment of a college student as well as his drinking habits if he is being accurate and we talked I think about drinking yesterday a little bit very much when you were by yourself in the apartment no as you were getting ready for this event to the July 20 event did you drink very much no what else is in your Park uh my computer just basic furniture on TV gargi came there from time to time when y'all were dating when you're in the relationship yeah would you usually go to your apartment or her apartment or her place um before she broke up it was uh usually a calf task but then after we got back together it was all my apartment what was there a place like a little messier than Wayne apartment or house uh she shared an apartment with another cow nearby no yeah it was nearby but not the same building it was like 10 minutes you were in an apartment building who else lived in the apartment building did you allow students and nurses primarily or exclusively here oh primarily I didn't get to know like I see him coming in and out you're doing laundry and things like that and I saw him in passing at the time did you know their names any of their names there wasn't a single person who lived there whose name you knew well they had their names in the mailboxes but I didn't Ryan remember were you ever in anyone else's apartment in your building no was anyone else who lived in the building ever in your apartment nope any particular reason no not really it wasn't a very social apartment and everybody had their own rooms you mentioned the posters on the walls this can't let clad young woman um there's another selfie that was on your phone of you with a woman right behind you do you remember that one the picture was that this family okay I gotta tell you the first time I saw it I didn't know that it was a poster okay tell me about that picture and when you took it and and I don't remember the conditions so far as you know roughly when was it in the course of all this if I don't have a copy of it here if I were to show it to you what would you say about the guy in that in that picture I wouldn't be noticing when you took the picture it looks very much like you meant to have it look a certain way with her resting ahead on your shoulder or looking over your shoulder close to you looks like it was purposely framed that way is that fair to say yeah okay was the picture manipulated at all or were you just standing by the poster okay that doesn't say much about my powers of observation does it um so if the picture was framed that way on purpose what does that convey to what is that framing convey to somebody or infer to some imply to somebody who's looking at the picture damn desirable the need to portray himself as desirable emphasizes that Holmes's true goal was notoriety can we say more about that uh did you ever look at the picture very much yourself forgot about it what might you have been thinking when you took speculating into were you a pretty desirable guy and January February March April May June of 2002. or 2012 right I would say slowly okay there were two women that wanted to hang out with you at least yep okay did you think or feel that you were a pretty desirable guy at the time no I kind of felt that that would make me more desirable to see because someone like that you think you wanted to feel more desirable yourself uh probably I I don't want to just just feed your answers because then I just get back what I get from a mirror but I'm wondering whether you needed some help feeling desirable or good or competent or positive things about yourself I don't know if you can survive all that for that but I was trying to feel desirable what's going on inside your mind that you are trying to feel desired well just because I've broken up with playing scope but around that time and we're not sure exactly when the picture was taken I guess around that time you had we left her and you had rebuffed Hillary now the reason you gave at least with regard to Hillary was that you didn't want it to end up being the girlfriend of a murderer am I remembering that right yeah yeah okay tell me about wanting to be desirable after that um not wanting to be alone trying to start another relationship are you pretty lonely guy no I feel that's when I along things they feel best when you're alone okay but a few minutes ago you said there were times when you didn't want to feel alone or didn't want to be alone or feel or one or the other right and by the way these aren't black and white things they can blend and they can come and go at times where you're pretty lonely guy um no because I don't usually feel whatever since you've been arrested have you felt lonely yes just because of the sheer it's an enormous amount of being alone for two years it's absolutely enormous as your sister deserted you uh no he and I are these kind of living Separate Lives which he still cares about me the relationship between a convicted murderer and their family members often becomes complicated the family sometimes chooses to turn their backs on them other times they find it difficult to reconcile their memories of their loved one but the acts the person is committed they may even experience guilt for Still Loving them in these cases visits are awkward uncomfortable and seldom as possible please correct me but I don't think she's contacted you once except for being with your parents when they visited in two years is that accurate I can't remember if she wrote a letter or not but she certainly doesn't do it like every good one I think she's written you any letters I don't remember we ask it again has your sister deserted you abandoned nope where's the evidence that she hasn't abandoned you uh she came with my parents on the comments does that strike you as pretty scant evidence for 24 months well my parents only were allowed to visit twice so being one of the times that's and that's and that's not their fault that there's they were only allowed those visits that's my understanding but they've written you scores Angels scores that's just their relationship dynamic between the United States well you were describing your sister yesterday she loved her big brother she was looking after her big brother she helped her big brother dig a hole in the sand and fill it for water real typical younger sister older brother stuff shh yep now the situation is not so difficult there are people who don't even know you who write to you and send your pictures yeah and your sister doesn't do you see anything unusual you see anything that doesn't I'm not sure how to phrase it without using triple negative it wouldn't take much for her to send you a damn postcard right but have you abandoned her well I haven't written her either so it goes both ways have your lawyers asked that you're not right to people um that was kind of a stance I took early on to be on the safe side on the safe side with regard to because all the letters are you know aren't recovered can be as Miss Awards discovery so it's logical and natural that lawyers recommend that people not right or to be very careful what they write pre-track right I understand that part yeah I don't know if that's stopping me from writing her here thank you exactly my question absent that would you be writing to your sister probably not because I don't have much to talk about there's books I'm reading and TV and watching this about it Holmes refuses to confront the possibility that his sister may never contact him again absent that would you be writing to your parents um [Music] as far as you know I have any of the friends that you had been Tim guardney Hillary anybody else have they written to you or try to run to you know what do you speculate and it would be pure speculation what do you speculate they think about you yeah they're probably moving on with their own lives and mine's not dispersed with them what do you think they think of you think about you that you better put what do you think they think about you well then I was a good friend what else and somebody says to them James Holmes what does that bring up in their mind about uh the thing you eat before is um before you before the shootings you started to say something else before I was like what were you going to put in that drawing um mental ill you know like outright showing mental again what feeling do you think they might have toward you or feelings do you think they might have toward you uh they probably want to distance themselves for me so they don't get lumped in is related to a killer I was close with that quite acquaintance what do you think their feelings are toward you um I think they care about me okay and then feelings toward you born again sister feelings towards you um it's still warm feelings that's an inference not Based on data right it's an inference that's my assumption assumption okay is there any chance that your friends would be really pissed at you no I don't think so unless it interfered with Airlines the Press interviews any chance that they might be disgusted by um no I think they'd be supportive how about says any chance that she might be disgusted or repulsed or angry or have any real negative he certainly didn't show it in the visit she just my typical sister what do you think's public fields and they don't know you they they know the incident based on the media that's all they know what do you think they're feeling it or feelings um dislike A1c anything up misunderstood how do you mean that tell me tell me more about misunderstood well they don't have a full picture of my life has happened are you aware of in general the media coverage and stuff like that the area of the TV so I can see some photos on the news so you're pretty much up on how the media treated this incident how the media has treated you or no no I can't sheltered inmates are often prevented from watching any news programs that might cover them not to protect them but to deprive them of any sense of satisfaction who shelters you it's not I mean computer access do you have TV access the lawyers talk with you frequently do they talk about public reaction at all no not really is anybody in the jail the custody people mentioned public reaction at all thank God sir yeah but occasionally people occasionally inmates all things out is as you said yesterday yeah that's primarily somewhere supported but it's good did you see any any TV coverage of course the most recoveries comes in the first week or two doesn't it but you did have about time when you had access to TV have you ever Colony TV coverage at that time uh they're memorializing the victims getting the coverage refer to you well one of those refer to me as the theater government is that the guy in these pictures yeah basically is the theater gunman similar to the guy that you see in these pictures or different from the guy you've seen this picture uh I came to those um so your access to news on TV is not particularly filtered I'm sure they choose the channel or choose certain channels after the event you remember choosing to watch the news um it was a long time ago but I saw some news on it was it of interest to you do you remember or not yeah I found it interesting to just either a different perspective do you remember how you felt as you watched the various news stories mainly that they like this stuff wrong her bias what sorts of things in general would they get wrong or would it be a newly biased about um I'm not sure speculating what what I know it was two years ago but it was a real big day in your life a real big week in your life so you just said they got stuff wrong and they were buyers I'm asking what's in general that they got wrong or what they might have been biased about uh well they didn't take it from my perspectively if they had what would they have been reporting what would they've been saying kind of psychological reasons the way you did anything else maybe that relates to your word misunderstood anything else about misunderstood no not really this afternoon I'd like to do a little bit more about your apartment okay interesting place especially when you left I'd like to learn more about that anything that you'd like to ask me or anything that I didn't ask today we'll continue this afternoon about two okay all right thanks again there we go foreign [Music] [Music] thanks okay looked a little like you were leading a parade out there okay just have lunch okay good okay let's see remember where we were when we left off this morning you remember he's probably better than mine you want to talk about the apartment yes and we talked a little bit about it and we were getting to the part about the armament and the way the apartment looked when you left that's what it was okay okay um got a picture of that I'm sure that you remember pretty well I don't think this is a picture that you took a little bit okay does that look familiar tell me about that and what's in the picture after breaking for lunch the conversation turns back to Holmes's apartment to see if any more insight into his thought process can be gained from its contents you're welcome this is all the incendiary devices I mean so I ordered a bunch of fireworks Cannon Hills in like three inches six inch diameters Holmes rigged this apartment with explosive devices but during his arrest he warned the police and they successfully disarmed him without incident so the the spherical things are firework Cannon or firework things that get loaded into Canon and shut up for fireworks is that I assume that's how they can work okay tell me more about the picture what's it um well there's all the difference uses running into those and they go back to like a transmitter that's like radio frequency transmitter the pressure button and now light the fuse and go through the transmitter is RF or wires it's battery on a battery you get 12.8 volt battery oh but the operation is Wireless yeah there's a little tenure removed and you press a b c d one two three four um tell me where you learned all that stuff that sounds pretty complicated um now you just put the wires into their correct spots then attach them to the pieces and they'll light the fuse I don't press the button on the remote and the ignition is like a piezoelectric ignition a little circuit that like short circuits and catches fire and then it's gunpowder fuses go up from there did you ever test test them no I didn't get to test any of the engineering devices or so I was figuring they wouldn't work really yeah and it was just made to look online like like that's really scary but we have to divert attention to over here so was the idea that it wouldn't work and it would just look that way or was the idea maybe it will work or it was like a small possibility that it would all right so they're having enough that interested in stopping it and what was your thought about a purpose a reason that you would want them to be interested or something you would want them to do to get them away from us here still can revert their forces over to the apartment did you think and it sounds like one possibility is that they would be diverted to the apartment before the shootings began yeah that's the plan that was the plan and how how were you planning to accomplish it um through a noise complaint from the neighbors to bring them there I heard about the the noise complaint idea I didn't realize that you meant prior to the shooting and how how was that set up uh that was just set up to my computer where loud music would play after like 15 minutes of silence so it was like it was just silence on the timer so you left the computer was on and 15 minutes later the loud music was supposed to start is that right uh yes how did you set the I have to set that up with the 15 minutes of silence what sort of track was that um well it was like I like that you could connect different songs together copy paste minutes of silence and okay so the computer just thought it was 15 minutes of music but it was really 15 minutes of silence right so it was fully you know like the highest volume and how did that work out in terms of attracting somebody to the sound um I think they made the complaint but there wasn't a big response by the police if there even was a response physically noise complaints are not a high priority and sometimes go ignored unless multiple calls come in where was the music coming out or were the speakers in the apartment itself uh yes just right next to the monitors and the base on the floor so a person so a person would complain in the plan to the police and the police would go to the apartment bang on the door open the door yeah I let the door unlocked okay um as you were thinking about that did you consider the possibility that a person might have come to the that is a non-police person might have come to the door yeah and so that's why when I said to a tripwire I didn't have it attached to the door I had a kind of inside so they'd be able to see inside but not go to like disable anything because there's an obstacle in the way okay so if the person who opens the door could see what was there then they differently call the police they would call the cops it occurs to me that the cops also would not once they saw they wouldn't rush in either right but they'd be kind of stuck at the scene okay the the diversion would have worked right I don't want to put words in there thank you in like a small likelihood that and it would work with um there was something in a dumpster also I'm trying to think what it was is that ring about no I didn't put anything in the door or a there was something beside the dumpster okay what was that uh the Boombox also with the timer on it on a CD and I put the remote for triggering the transmitter things so a random person outside could be able to trigger the fuses and I was just going to go random uh factoring into the equation so that would have been another possible way to set up some or all of the incendiary devices is that what you're saying yeah do you know what happened in the end to those things um they got taken away the next day I told them all about like all the most of the details because I'm still surrounding it I think I'll see if it was and what types of explosives and I want to ask you about that that interview in that conversation as well but sticking for the moment with the with the apartment did you have any experience with with incendiary devices or uh launch capabilities or fireworks or things like that um just you're like well it's very basic fireworks like the fuse and step back but okay did you ever and this this is coming to me from a different source and I'm not sure about it was there ever a time when you helped with a fireworks display no okay doesn't ring a bell the family or somebody somebody was lighting fireworks and you were there or helping other than black cats and cherry bombs things like rockets and stuff like that no no Rockets okay thank you a little bit okay for me um some of the things that we see in the picture the the big jars a couple of liter jars full of the liquid and some rifle shells and other things can you tell me what was in the jar um the liquid is gasoline and it kind of dripped down from the styrofoam styrofoam and gasoline so I thought then they pulled my trigger the bullets to go off a big caught fire but I don't I never tested any of any of it you mentioned that you think there was a low probability of it going off is it reasonable to say that I thought there was some probability that it would go up there was some level okay what would have happened had had they gone up it probably would have the most damage probably would have been caused by fire ethics frame to the other Apartment Homes I think anybody would have been hurt or was that part of the picture in your mind or no no I didn't think anybody would get hurt from Vincent Gary's the situation at the theater as I'm understanding you had to do with a plan and thoughts of killing people the situation at your apartment please correct me if I was the other purpose of diversions different purpose and not specifically having to do with hurting or killing people right you realize there was a chance that they like him yes it's I wouldn't want to be in that room when anything went off would you want to be in the next door apartment with anything I don't think it would have carried that part what about the bullets they've had gone off the show well since they're not in a tube or a barrel we're going to explode in all directions and how did I think that's a true statement what I understand about about shelves that you toss into a campfire or something how did you know that just thinking it through okay just just looking at all these pictures and see if there's anything else before I dismiss the pictures oh I was going to ask you about this uh do you have a passport yeah and you recall when you got the passport um When I Was An undergraduate did you need it to go to Mexico at that time or I was gonna need it because they passed the new law where had to have the passport to walk across here go through the car Enterprise did you ever need to use it with Mexico no I didn't when you went down I never like went to Mexico and when you did the orphanage thing that was before before okay there was never any evidence that Holmes planned to escape either by leaving the country or the area in general did you have any other thoughts away from the country um no I didn't have any realistic thoughts let's keep me are many places you wanted to visit um no I'm buying the state so the purchase of it pretty much had only to do with if you wanted to go to Mexico you could go to Mexico right okay just to visit Mexico or to go there and live or Escape or no if I would probably go to Canada because nowadays do you have to have a passport to get into Canada I don't remember either okay you mentioned that you didn't check things did you ever uh just the flammability of some of the things not necessarily the device but just to be sure the gunpowder burned or the Napalm worked or something like that yeah I like cut up a piece of the fuse off kind of lit it over the bathtub and that was like this is please as you're doing those things what Thoughts with three bind to your members or what fantasize your thoughts about three months when you're building this stuff when you're setting it up when you're testing your fuses just getting it done just getting it done yeah what I was thinking when I was doing here and it is when you say getting yes components any thoughts about the result of getting it done the consequences of getting it done I just thought it was unlikely that it would work you mentioned the version all right about how far is your apartment from the cinema 10 15 minutes as far as you know it was in the same jurisdiction as the or the police of course I guess one was Adams County the other was Arapahoe County we talked about you talked about the idea of a mission earlier and so I'm remembering right the mission came from within you not from some other place outside you is that accurate yeah tell me more about the mission and what the mission might accomplish what it might do um well the mission was to go to the theater and uh shoot as many people as possible and that was the thought at the time back in May June July yeah of 2012. that's one level of mission was it was that designed to further some larger Mission or additional mission no that was kind of the ultimate mission homes cannot give any clear goal for his actions there was no message no point he was trying to get across there should be some type of reasoning even if it doesn't make sense so that was the whole end yeah any thoughts about why something inside you said this is your mission what was it that made it important to do that thing made it so important that you did it um because the alternative was suicide and I think you said this morning the alternative was suicide but you weren't thinking of that at the time right we weren't thinking of suicide because I was focused on the homicide that's a concise answer of the thousands of possibilities of the reasons for things of all for anything you quickly went to the alternative was suicide what you sound very sure about that and I'm wondering why you sound so sure about that when one might say the alternative was X or Y or Z you've been several times very clear and concise the alternative was suicide what leads you to that what what's what's the reasoning that leads you to him just doing the Honda side got me out of the depression he gave a purpose you were you were pretty depressed back in January 12. as I understand it you were less depressed later in 2012. at least at least as far as you knew am I wrong I was the opposite I was more depressed you were more depressed during June compared to January and some of the things you described about that were the use the word catatonic unable to get up and go what were other symptoms as you look back on it that you were depressed at that time I guess I'm sort of asking and I don't mean to be psychiatric about it why should I believe that you were that depressed because you haven't told me that much about the depression can you tell me more about describe more to me that tells me that you were depressed back then I was just a low mood not wanting to do anything you were doing things pretty actively though yeah which is what got me out of the depression if he had been as lethargic and disconnected as he claims Holmes would have struggled to muster the energy to follow through with his plan if those activities were getting you out of the depression can you tell me the rationale for actually carrying out the shootings if the preparation activities were doing the job right talk to me about the necessity of carrying out the shootings themselves after the preparation had done its job well we're supposed to increase my self-birth so that would get me out of the division in the end the shootings were supposed to increase my self-worth can you tell me a little bit about that um I think it was in a text message I sent to gargi about human capital now you can kind of place a value on a life and if you take lives away that kind of adds to your own value this type of thought LED his girlfriend to break up with Holmes in the first place I do remember the text message Exchange um is that an accurate rendition of the way you were feeling at that time of course is there anything more to them that you can explain to me oh I don't think there's anything else to it that's a pretty concisely encapsulated theory if you will there's got to be more to it than that why is it in what way did you think of taking other people's lives as enhancing yours what tell me about the logic of that just anything they would have done or like pursued gets canceled out and given to me looking starting today election back does that still make sense to you yeah okay so the premise that you're describing two years ago you would still agree with agree with that premise today yeah okay tell me more about the premise would I don't think nothing else just thinking about it sounds like there's a lot to say about it sounds like there could be books written about I would probably be a boring book does it appear in any of your readings or how did you come upon that premise I just made it up I don't see a rational side to that I might be able to see it irrational side to that but I don't see any data if you will or information that would lead to the veracity of that premise I'm not saying you didn't believe that premise I don't know because I'm not inside it I certainly wasn't inside to two years ago what makes that a logical premise or is it or is it an irrational purpose oh it's not based on logic just is the way it is did it appear in anything that you ever read or Saw movies and things like that or do you think the idea might have come from or no well I think he came from economics because you can take countries measuring their GDP of given population and kind of say this is that there's a value which we place in our nation's output and you could do the same to individual people say this person has a value and does this output or would do this output to Within it goes to me actors after killing him let's use your country analogy for it for a minute and see how long the analogy holds up okay okay a country has goods and services and output and value and potential value for the future how might you person or another country acquire the value that you see in the first country you conquer the country through like a war and then you're stupid economic benefits okay are there any circumstances under which when you conquer it you wouldn't receive all those economic benefits um with the applied like a slash and burn strategy or anything burn the land and that's exactly what I was thinking if you obliterate the country right then its value plummets is that your thinking as well or not um its value goes down but the Conquering country would have increased their military effectiveness homes reluctantly concedes the point but he still will not admit that his actions aren't fully consistent with his theory because they've kind of won a battle they've won a battle and they get to put a mark on the big scoreboard in the sky I guess the wind cuddle so to speak it is that what you mean yeah because I don't see much other advantage of the Conquering the country they get to reap the rewards of the land so even after the slash and burn the land is still there yeah they've expanded their borders if you were great but in the situation of killing the individual it seems to me that that's akin to obliterating the country not just slash and burnt but obliterating the country and its borders and there's nothing left to bring to the Conquering country does that make sense or does that not make sense as an analogy does the analogy break down or no uh no because essentially you win the war by killing them so you're no longer in a state of order some of the other folks that you've talked with have referred to some writings that you did some references to meet you things like that right I simply said I've heard of me chain to my psychiatrist hunting okay what is nature and his writings have to do with all this if anything he believed you with God I think and then he went crazy and that's like the main points that I took away from the beach and I'm once again I'm I'm talking with you in the here and now and I'm trying to refer to how you felt and how you were two years ago we both understand that right yeah those were the feelings two years ago Mitchell thought it was God then he went crazy how does that relate to you and what you were thinking or planning or feeling I never related it to that okay this is something connected the dogs with so it sounds like what you're saying is that they may have connected some thoughts but the connection's not really there is it is that I don't think I never made a connection looking back intellectually at it do you think there was a connection there that you just didn't realize um no I don't think so okay um Highlander comes up in some of the interviews or writings or something yeah another makeup connection I said like uh there can be only one in a text message and then they got interested in Highlander from that if you recall is that kind of what you were referring to in the text message the famous quote I don't remember any of the surrounding information do you remember the text message yourself no can you picture that no so as we're sitting here we don't know let's assume there was such a text message there was but as we're sitting here we don't know what you were thinking is that accurate or no oh that's correct have you seen Highlander yes okay series the movie what do you think of that's an interesting concept do you think that concept is akin to your concept no because the main thing in Highlander was they're trying to become Mortals and they have to kill other Immortals behind them and then the very last one it becomes a mortality I remember that is that right I didn't remember that the last one became mortal yeah it's I believe it's interesting I didn't remember and they were specifically killing each other rather than random civilians if you will yeah each other with swords yeah nothing seems to have definitely inspired Holmes he may have cobbled his theory together from the random pieces of media without realizing it but no one thing sparked his thought process you've implied that you came up with the idea with the concept independently as far as you can remember independently of any readings or anybody else's writings that might have come up with a similar concept at some other time that makes sense are you talking about the Highlander the Highlander or Nietzsche or anybody else what I think you've said and again I don't want to put words in your mouth is that wherever the concept of assimilating others powers or value looking back on it you believe that that came solely from within you and not from any suggestions outside you well there's always going to be suggestions outside of you that influence you so that I wouldn't say it was a fair statement to say it was solely unique because I interacted my environment apparently you didn't know or want to know any of the people in the theater no I kept it very impersonal as as you were carrying out the shootings you were wearing gas masks the whole time uh yes how well could you see out of the Mask not well because there were lights behind the theater which were actually brighter than in the theater so I had to go from a brightly lit area to a dark Cleveland area and have the gas mask was scratches in it I was trying to remove the scratches but they weren't putting up was it a used basket oh it was a new mask but there were still scratches on them the visor that you tried to remove to be able to see better yeah was the movie still playing when you were shooting uh yes I wasn't watching it though I understand did that throw light on the audience that you were shooting in um no it threw light at very front where there were no people sitting I want to get more to the theater but I don't want to get ahead of myself okay I think there's a lot of sticking for just a minute on philosophy stuff is there anybody that you can think of the team to similar conclusion may have been you may have been independent of it or not um other people for example who have killed lots of people who are injured lots of people anybody that you particularly recall thinking about oh no Ted Kaczynski comes to mind you Mama what about what what did you know about because it's at the time I said I heard of them to affect him and I guess he was anti-corporations or something anti-technology maybe and I remember was he at all relevant to what your mission was and what you're thinking the only relevance is he had purpose in mind this is carry it out in a similarly did you say in that four-month period April May June July did you be recall reading about or learning anything or seeking anything about Krasinski those would be in the computer Records On A Prayer offhand one word you don't remember one way or the other no okay another guy that I'm a little bit reminded of is the fellow Cho Holmes was not inspired by anyone in real life either he has basic common knowledge of Infamous Killers but he has never focused on them individually or as a whole one first name that I don't remember should we chill at Virginia Tech I've heard about him you went up the bill I'm sorry he went up into the Bell Tower I believe it's fun there that was the one University of Texas that's a different one yeah okay well I don't know um do you remember looking up any of these folks or learning about or thinking about comparing yourself to any of the other people that have killed a lot of people I looked at what they did and how they didn't but I think comparing to how I was engineering you looked at what they did and how they did it any suggestions in there or things to avoid um you don't shoot the police otherwise they kill you so and you didn't choose the police all right okay anything else about how they did it that may have informed you know better ways to go about this no I seek out any improvements in their methods you see similarities but you may have already kind of answered this and I don't mean to make this an interrogation but hour in a more specific timeline of things any similarities between you and any of those people Kozinski Cho anybody else all had mental problems okay is that speaking today or speaking would you have said the same thing two years ago that's speaking today what would you have said two years ago two years in a month ago in uh we all had violent and illusions was there anything attractive about them or repulsing about them no there is people anything attractive or repulsive about the end result of what they did uh or about what happened to them afterwards um know pretty much what's expected to happen and what is that what's expected to happen they got either locked up or they died the selfies of of you with the Glock and and the AR remind me a little bit of a picture that Joe took of himself I never saw any pictures of Joe I never did let me show you the picture remember that at all no okay baseball selfies are pretty common yeah everybody everybody's always takes I'll try to go a little bit if I made through a chronology and I think we've covered a lot of it already um we talked about the trip in December of 2011. there Arizona been Christmas with your uncle yep I have found that you went to Woodside to see some friends from Riverside is that not true or a different trip or same trip woodstein I don't know what that is Woodside California yeah I don't know particularly other trips from from grad school around back to California or just the one around Christmas to go to uh it was just the Christmas one do you remember seeing friends from Riverside on any of those treatments uh yeah I think we're gonna we're gonna go to a Mongolian barbecue but we went to BJ's Pub and Brewery the memory doesn't seem to hold any special memory for homes and he seems mildly confused about this line of questioning families or you and your friends or uh just right okay tell me about that oh he drove up to La carpools I just had dinner together so you're getting together with people that you knew you hadn't seen for a while what was that like uh kind of like a reunion tell me more what what you guys talk about what to do um we didn't talk about just normal stuff but yeah nothing stands out how long did you spend together hours days of the day and how did you hook up with them how did you meet up with them or text messaging okay you let them know that you were coming back and ask if they want to get together or what I think they asked if uh I wanted to go or not I said yeah how did they know you were going to be in Riverside how did you know how did they know you were going to be back in California I don't know if they texted me previously or if it was just overlap with vacation remember any of the names oh yeah Earl Toshi Ritchie Soren yeah what did you guys do at Riverside before what was the friendship like before I've been friends with all them in Riverside before all four years and as friends with them in Riverside can you tell me a little about what the friendships were like and what you guys would do um will you go out to dinner and or we could go to the apartments and play Super Smash Brothers Super Mario Kart that kind of thing over four years that's it uh we also uh watched lost together every every episode good they know that you were in Colorado or did you let them know you're in Colorado how'd they know where you were to text you which you maybe it doesn't matter where you are you may even say phone number sure yeah I'm with um too old for that concept to get into my brain um but to actually meet up they need to know that you're going to be in California and I'm kind of wondering I think I told them okay so you went out and you do again you hit hit a bar or not just a restaurant restaurant okay you told Dr ger remember Dr ger M yes okay you said to Dr pure about any of the things that you remembered looking into a mirror and seeing something and do you remember that interchange remember that picture in your mind um no is there something unusual about the mirror what kind of asking you that I guess anything to do with the with the mission or with what you were contemplating I don't know what the rear event is okay it has been several years since that incident and while it might have meant something to Holmes at the time it wasn't strong enough to leave a lasting impression you've said several times that the that the mission and the concept came from within you and not from outside you you've never used a phrase like an outside power or a master power or a God talking to you or anything like that no there was a command voices no no command voices how about just the feeling that there was some some master of you that was moving you in a particular direction to do certain things oh no I'd say I was my own authority then we built the shooting range I was two hours away it's an unsupervisory but the owners or I guess the caretakers dropped by like every day anyway how many times did you go I'm assuming it was out because everything in Colorado is uphill from it was off the 40. it was uh maybe five times I think and what did you do up there well she did there are lots of ways to shoot all right how did you do it uh well then different kind of range areas so one was for rifles there's handgun they went shopping so I would just go and practice in each designated area where other people up there when you went would it be likely that there would be other people shooting as well sometimes there were other people yeah cost anything nope it's free free except the cost of your ammunition I suppose yeah ammunition of gas you know um so how long would you stay when you went to uh until the ammunition ran out of my magazines do you recall when the last time you went what the last time before the July 20th no I don't recall things when I get each specific time I mean the timing was the last time just before July 20th or two weeks before a month before there's probably a record of that somewhere okay so what do you say um a week maybe before did you get to be a better shot from the beginning I stayed a terrible shot yeah Holmes choice of location ensured that he did not need to be a good shot to accomplish his goal and one of those times up there was when you saw the FBI SUV go by yeah how did you feel as you were shooting on that hammer just said I was familiarizing myself with the weapons any other feeling no not really that sounds like going to a job it was kind of like work to be done yeah it wasn't any pleasure involved in growing up and shooting off weapons not for me at least do you recall that any pictures or fantasies came to your mind as you were doing um no I was more focused on the task at hand learning how to shoot which of the weapons was the hardest to develop proficiency with um on a the assault rifle would be the hardest how good did you get I like I said paper but I wasn't usually Bullseye targeted you weren't using a bullseye Target I wasn't I wasn't really honorable as I I just hit the paper targeted easily admissible before you bought those weapons how much shooting had you done zero I'd done paintball but that's different have you ever fired a handgun or a long gun before no I recall that you went to one of the stores again about or something with Tim and he was going to purchase a weapon is that right you remember that yeah I think he bought up do you remember that trip and what that was like with the group I think you're with the group I wasn't too interested in Firearms inside you ever held a handgun before um my team let me hold this handgun was that okay with you is that something you asked to do or he said here at home this or he was kind of showing uh is this what the gun was do you recall what it felt like the holica that first time I made me nervous so they've never had only gone before nervous uh tell me about nervous when we met again for the first time uh what's there to tell me there it is nervous about anything in particular about the gun going off and hurting somebody there ever shoot a 22 at the fair you know the little rifle ranges at the fair will you shoot the little ducks or something no I didn't like a squirt gun or he closed up a balloon or whatever it was never everybody Holmes had no prior shooting experience or any familiarity with weapons so the very first time you fired a gun and almost the first time you ever held a gun handgunner long gun for something held it was probably in your apartment right or at the store um the first time you fired it was up at buyers or did you go to a different range closer rings at first no I only went to buyers now the big question how did you feel the first time you shot the weapons um I didn't feel anything special I I just thought it was harder than it looked in what way and I thought you just uh point and pull the trigger but you know it's kind of hard to aim and then multitask be aware of your surroundings while you're looking down the sites had you read about how to shoot or how to hold the gun or what to do as you're pulling the trigger or sighting yeah I think I went to some gun forums and looked at like how how to stand how to hold the gun prevent recoil did you wear ear protection yeah specialty here mostly kind of have like a high frequency tone minimum do you remember the first time you shot and the weapon went off do you remember that I don't remember that moment how about the first time you shot the shotgun um I remember it gives me a bruise because I was shooting slugs I mean and it really pulls back on you but I don't remember the first time as being significant versus the other time okay I'm curious did you shoot slugs at the theater or was it shot uh BB shot did you maintain your guns after you left the range clean them things like that yeah I had to look up product for you about the cleaning kind of toolkit did you get pretty proficient at that you mentioned taking them down stripping them and thinking about you know what they're doing okay at the range do you recall whether or not you emptied clips or would you shoot for a mile and stop aren't you till the magazine of MD okay would you then practice replacing the clip for types of replacing the magazine um well yeah shooting in because it had multiple rings tell you what I'm referring to is in the theater apparently some of the magazines were over full and jammed all right was that a surprise to you or had you experienced that or planned you were shooting at the range did that ever happen it never happened uh yeah I don't misfire like if they didn't spring all the way up I forgot to take your post earlier man take a pulse sure thank you throughout the interview Holmes has remained passive and Cooperative following each Direction without question it is difficult to picture him showing any signs of violence stuff that you got across a lot of money yeah I had a lot of savings though I was going to ask where did the money come from to purchase it savings over the years and uh running for the training room the savings were from your jobs and things like that yeah summer jobs where was that money in my bank account checking your savings I could move it all around as I wanted online some of the purchases were made with credit cards right but but paying for it came from the savings and the grant money um my credit card has uh is connected to my bank account so they can pay it off directly so it was automatically debited when the I hope it was once a month unless I did it manually okay at the end of all this where the credit cards all paid off or was there still my credit cards have always been paid off okay so I always paid a full balance so nobody was stuck with the bill after all the events in shooting stuff no did your parents send you any extra money that eventually went into purchasing them body armor of the weapons of the ammunition um they gave me five thousand primary College 529 savings account but I didn't use that money to buy anything as you were buying stuff did you pay any attention to the cost or that wasn't a factor in what you were purchasing um well it was a little bit but not too much so I wouldn't buy like the most expensive thing how about the how about the body protection the body armor stuff how did you choose that well I wanted to be protected in case when it came to a shootout between the police and me and there are different levels of that different grades right I usually got ballistic for gay which is displaying protection from handguns and you mentioned that you wanted to be protected in case you got into a shootout yep did you think a shootout would occur or was it just a precaution in terms of the planning and anticipation at that time it was something to be considered did you put it on at the apartment before I think you did put it on the apartment tried on or something like that I tested it first yeah in what way did you test it in the facility we will have patient movement from their unit to A8 patient movement from the unit's a how did you go about testing what do you mean testing just wearing it with all the magazines in their places in the sling the gun slings on and on roughly how many times did you do that uh just once for all of it and when in the course of the chronology did you do after I received all the body armor how'd you feel putting it on uh hot I think it's like sweaty how else uh encumbered so you can't really move around very fast anything else no not really did you look at yourself in the mirror see what it looked like yeah and what did you see in the mirror I saw myself in party over here what else would you what else would a person seeing you in the mirror or in the photograph see besides a person invite you uh somewhat dangerous are you say no no sounds like that and a selfie with the clock Etc appearing dangerous was important to you at that time um yeah because you don't want 400 people rushing you and it's clearly easy they could have overwhelm you okay so part of it was if I appeared dangerous they are less likely to rush me is that accurate or not that's accurate yeah you also bought some handcuffs right tell me about the handcuffs how do they fit into all this um well there's these double doors in the theater and you could lock them by having the handcuffs connected to each handle it was something I didn't and wind up doing wrong okay you bought some some Road Stars Holmes is mentioned multiple times that he did this to avoid suicide but the lengths he went to to ensure his own safety show a very keen regard for his own life that was in case you had an ideal get away Pursuit whatever and some field dressing and first aid field first aid equipment that's if I got shot you've given a practical reason for each thing that you've purchased or that you wore that you took to the theater was any of it particularly back at the apartment was any of it more for show than anything else no it was functioning over for the pictures that you took of yourself showed you a certain way portray you as dangerous as somebody not to be to win with although there's function attached to that it also sounds like there's a certain amount of show attached within a certain amount of appearance okay as a matter of fact the photographs weren't designed to protect you at all they were designed for other people to look at in future is that right or is it not right it was to be remembered so obviously you're going to be remembered by other people and not yourself did you think you're going to get killed uh no that's why I got all the buyer you knew that lots of police would show up and very quickly to you how did you know they would show up quickly just from noticing police prisons in that area that's near the police station too right across the street what quarter of a mile half a month yeah pretty close the proximity to the police station have anything to do with the choice of location no it would have been negative negative factor to consider so why did you still pick that place because I was familiar with that please I'm sorry I was familiar with that place I Recon there you could have recounted some other book right why did you choose the one that was 45 seconds away from the police station or something close to the police station like three minutes away okay and I just felt comfortable there it was kind of within my range of the apartment of usually project committed like 10 miles with it a person's residence apparently said two interesting things one projects are usually Within 10 miles or something like that tell me what that they're usually close to home is what point is okay what's usually close to where somewhere you commit to crying you say that as if that's a governing factor for many crimes or one governing factor for committing crimes is to do it close to home yeah I don't know the source or the data from it though why would that apply particularly to you you could you could shoot people any place within a 100 mile radius without much trouble right when I had to keep it in personal oh 100 miles away it would be less person 100 miles away it's harder to to kind of scalp yeah then you said that the police station was you corrected me not 45 seconds but three minutes did you time it in some way no that was just my exclamation your estimation from before the shootings or after the shoot uh before I think I wrote In The Notebook somewhere as Holmes reveals more about his decisions it becomes clear just how Keeney was to avoid any sort of conflict with the police that could have resulted in his own death or injury there are different ways I guess to kill people you chose shooting them yourself as contrasted with a bomb or something like that makes sense yeah that was like the easiest way to figure out what to you at the time made that quote the easiest way well I don't have much like technical knowledge about bombs so I probably wind up blowing myself up by the way did you ever think you might blow yourself up as you're setting up all this gasoline and stuff uh no I was pretty careful you're not a smoker I take it no have a gas stove in the apartment um electric electric pilot light in the hot water heater I don't think that's in the apartment down how careful were you as you were compounding the gunpowder or the Napalm pouring gasoline around them how careful were you um careful not enough to get hurt did you do all this in one day or did you do it over a period of time I set it up well in one day but like I made the Nepal my previous day they collected the gasoline and pour them into the soda bottles another day so I put them all out the family room on the night of as you're doing that bit you're going to bed with all that stuff out there no I'm going out I'm going out to the movie theater with all that stuff out there but you just said that you worked with the gasoline over more than one day or you poured the gasoline the day before or something like that right so the napalms relatively entered in the process of doing this you're spending at least one night maybe more nights sleeping in an apartment yeah gingerbox is a an understatement yeah with fumes Etc could you smell the gasoline all right closely capped on them okay tell me about going to bed and going to sleep the thoughts that you have as you go to sleep as you as you could have been what kind of feel any different between going to sleep normally and with the stuff in the time period leading up to the shooting homes remain calm and untroubled did you spend much time when you weren't doing the tasks there were many many tasks to do when you weren't doing your the tests you spent much time thinking about the mission thinking about what was going to happen or what might happen um no because I wasn't considering the consequences so when you stop to eat yeah what do you think about why you were eating if you remember just what I had to do next until I assemble this stuff are you watching any TV during that period or doing any video games yeah just watching TV I think South Park spend much time watching TV on those two three days um not at the end of the night of put everything together about the video games I think I stopped supporting them right now really yeah please so roughly when did you stop playing Diablo 3. again that would be in the record so the computer hardware but I don't I don't know the thing is I don't know exactly you don't have to be exact was it close to the last day or a week and the other three is something you liked yeah I played the previous Diablos too okay it seems to me it takes a lot for you to quit cold turkey if you will um no because it wasn't as good as the other keys sort of not my point um something was relatively quickly more important than something you used to do eight hours a day right because I I suddenly attached no importance to the young woman and was the time completely filled with planning the shootings no there was eating going to the gym that's right you you went to the gym a fair mail what would you like to do at the gym what sort of exercise did you like to do workout uh chess Express uh cardio like the ellipticals treadmill did you get pretty regularly most people can't do it regularly I tried to go uh twice a week but if I couldn't I would always make it once a week at least right up to the top of the shootings um I don't recall the end the whole time I went roughly right at the time this year I don't remember we were talking about you're stopping the video games that used to take up eight hours a day and you said other things filled that time including eating going to the gym yeah I'm wondering how much of that time between stopping the video games and the shooting during how much of that time roughly did you still go to the gym no more than twice a week and did that roughly twice a week or once a week continue up until the time of the shooting that I don't remember I have to check the logs roughly how much of the day in the last week before the shootings were you spending in some kind of preparation probably around four hours a day and the week or two before that roughly how much time and preparation that might have been when I was going to the gun range so a day's worth even though several years have passed Holmes cannot see how thoroughly his plan had overtaken his life and at this point you didn't have classes anymore now I dropped out tell me a little more about the reasoning but the reasons that you dropped up one I didn't pass my preliminary exams this was a drastic slip previously Holmes had been at the top of his class I had a lab I could could the kind of topics were less neuroscience and more genetics had you wanted to could you have retaken the prelims yeah tell me about the decision not to retake the prelude I just made this decision not to take them and then told my advisor that I was going to read at that time pretty much that day at that time what did you think was going to happen in your future what was your future looking like um he was looking busy I guess oh yeah I was busy with putting things together busy with putting preparations for the shootings are you talking about or putting other things together of ordering ordering stuff for this what else did you picture as being in your future at that time at the time that you quit um the end of my science career and what was going to be there instead of your science career um I didn't think about it not at all first you remember yep do you recall thinking that you didn't have a career a future at all or do you not remember thinking that the absence of the future I know I still had a feature I just didn't think about what I would do in the future months before months before okay tell me about your thoughts about the future then what was the thought about the future months before that um leave it up to kind of Faith to decide and what might they decide for what would be the possibilities and probabilities that I would either continue graduating neural science program or quit that's a pretty dichotomous set of possibilities any other possibility anything if I quit then that opens up the following possibilities If I Stay it opens up other possibilities if I quit came back to California and live with my uncle because there's like two-story house and he only needed one before it's a standpoint that was sick or this is uh the other Uncle okay Uncle Uncle Jimmy so that was one of the possibilities of going back to California all right any other possibilities staying in Colorado and looking for another job Holmes gave no thought to the future he could see nothing Beyond his plan usually someone with this type of delusion would have some special role or significance after they had completed their mission i i instead of looking for a job though for now is ineligible I'm sorry I didn't quite understand you you were knowledgeable about welfare ineligible ineligible yeah so had you gone back to California Uncle Jimmy what might you have ended up doing five years hands uh maybe looking for a lab research position the lab technical lab research Association okay had you stayed in Colorado what might have happened five years in the same thing any thoughts of being married or having family five years hints if I had a steady job it would maybe raise the families and you mentioned that you wanted to prepare for a thing by having a job and I think you mentioned that this morning yeah okay what else did you see in your future before the mission came up what else did you see in your future as you pictured yourself usually uh just going on to a postdoc position learning more techniques and stuff and then keep starting a career was there any particular thought or fantasy about what kind of Neuroscience career that might have been or what Siberia in my opinion uh whatever was available no burning desire in the direction of Olympic systems or something else no no as we come into say the spring of 2012. when does that future pictures start to change how does it start to change uh it's just not there anymore anything take this place oh no it's kind of up in the air anything vague taking its place no because it wasn't looking ahead towards the consequences I'm sorry I wasn't looking ahead towards the consequences Can you estimate what the earliest point was at which you began to think about these killings uh when I bought the Chocolate Factory so that was the second gun that you purchased at me right here okay you remember roughly when the earliest point was that you ever thought about killing anybody about those thoughts if you would uh they would just pop up tell me about the thoughts if you uh they were constructive thoughts towards others you need to paint me the picture if you need to tell me the video uh it's it was kind of that in an abstract way it wasn't actually visualizing uh killing or anything is this kind of like a voice saying like kill people according to multiple psychiatrists that Holmes had seen throughout his life he had been obsessed with killing for at least a decade prior to the shooting and then a voice voice that you could hear inside or outside your head or something else like your own voice different people mean different things when they say voice sometimes they're referring to a strong thought other times they're saying you know it was a voice and I turned my head and there was no it was uh internal internally sorry to push it so hard was it an internal voice that you heard as if it were coming through your ears or an internal thought that you realized was a thought not an auditory phenomenon it was kind of the I guess the thought that is a voice in your head okay even though you mentioned it was abstract the you did say that it would pop into your head and that they were thoughts of killing people at least that's what I asked about can you be any more specific about what would pop into your head just a desire to kill people how who under what circumstance it's like in personal form of a person no particular person it's a picture oh no one in particular it was a response to somebody doing something to you or making you feel bad later yeah I have been response to the stress can you be more specific I don't know what stressor is exactly if I think of having stress or people having stress or different kinds of stress the end result of them doesn't appear to me to be killing something can you make the connection for me that stress stress that leads to thoughts of killing a person yeah that's good can you make that connection for me that is the connection to the stressor just leads to the thoughts killing people no it's not the connection it's two points stress is one point feeling somebody is the next what's in between the two points well stretch is the trigger is it that you don't understand connecting two points or you don't know what's between the two points I'm saying the stress uh connects to be killing that doesn't make sense to me okay if I say hunger connects to eating a plate of food there are things between hunger and eating the food going to the grocery store choosing the groceries coming back home turning on the stove here all this you've still got to go get it choose it and open it so not if it's already open until we're getting into to a word game and it's not really my purpose I really want to understand that homes fully understands the point that is being made but he is being deliberately difficult he doesn't wish to acknowledge anything that contradicts his point of view for you there's a point of stress at least as you described it in high school many years ago stress and thoughts of killing some and I there are things in between those you may not be aware of what they are but there is something in between them I don't care if I don't know what they are otherwise it seems to be sort of like the old joke of lots and lots of formula and experimentation and then a miracle happens and something you remember that joke no okay okay if you're doing a proof or you're doing a paper about how you get to results of your experiment yeah it's not fair to say the date is here and a miracle happens and there's my result you need to understand or try to understand what's between the data and the result the causation if you will I'm seeing stress is the causation so they're kind of removed from you already went so closer what is it about you then that makes stress per se lead to thoughts of killing people that's not present in almost anyone else oh this is my coping mechanism sounds like psychobabble to me I'm sorry it just does what do you mean you're cooking medicine that's how I deal with it I come again to the pictures of the what comes up in your mind quickly comes to your mind proposal I know there's noise back behind it's come back to the image that comes to your mouth about killing someone once again is there any clearer picture of that that you can see can you fiddle with the focus knowledge is with when I'm with someone I have a picture of killing them and then the other is an abstract I get this image of just formless person who I can't really make out and I'm killing them okay let's go to the one that you mentioned when you're with someone what might be a circumstance in which you would think about killing a person that you were with at that time but they're being very annoying can you draw me a hypothetical situation I don't know if they're just bothering me and the thought up here how might they be bothering you in this hypothetical situation for the thought to appear I don't know I'm just laughing at me or something you mentioned yesterday or day before about people perhaps not laughing at you but talking directly about you it took very little for someone to move homes to thoughts of murder surprisingly he had never physically lashed out at anyone it was a situation is that an analogous situation or no yeah thanks a man no not really how is that different from an angry response there probably not doing anything to them and I'm not showing any anger we're talking about in your mind picturing yourself kill you yeah I understand that you're not really killing them right can we make the leap to if you visualize in your mind that you're killing somebody that laughed at you but it's logical to think that they picked you off that you were angry with them I was using annoyed but yes you were I'm not sure I don't have like Alberts their anger outbursts or anything I'm talking about inside talking about what comes to mind and it's what I think you just described okay something that often comes before anger is hurt you feel hurt when people would drastically about you uh yeah they're hypothetically or not yeah is that one of the situations where the fantasy might appear or no a fantasy of killing that person yeah and what happens in the fantasy what happens when you kill the person um they're not bothering me anymore so the bother goes away right yeah the annoyance goes away or the thing that's hurting you goes away all right seen from the other person's Viewpoint the person who's annoying you're hurting you that they feel that they've been punished through eliminated no because it was all coming on inside my head I know but in the event for the fantasy person inside your head do they feel anything or is this something you can do without fear of having them feel something there's no fear Duty you know maybe kind of putting words in your mouth that I don't mean to do that um some people who are being hurt don't want to truly hurt the other person and sometimes that's the reason they don't retaliate free or call a mind yeah because for one reason or another they don't want to escalate the situation or they don't want to hurt the other person one can do that in his mind without hurting the other person there's that thought resonate with what you're talking about um yeah I don't intentionally want to hurt them I just have thought of hurting them over another sort of leap what does that thought accomplish for you assuming resolution okay is there any relationship between that fantasy situation in which you've already said you don't want to actually do damage to the other person is there any relationship of that situation with the situation in which you did great damage to people at the theater um well then I was actually doing it it wasn't a thought anymore I understand do you see any connection or relationship or analogy no one ever realized that Holmes was having these types of thoughts he never gave any outward sign of being upset of the real with the thoughts of many years ago oh no because they didn't annoyed me in any way they were kind of the formless kind of person there I'm thinking and please tell me if my thinking is correct or not correct but there are two kind of categories one in which someone is doing something to you or in some way making uncomfortable or annoying you you feel badly and you deal with that in fantasy another is a situation such as the shootings in which the people are not doing anything to you but you wish to take something from them and assimilate it into yourself their value yeah there are two separate things tell me what's right or wrong what that interpretation of things is 100 right 50 right ten percent right and correct the things in our right Kenya it sounds right to me the first experience with people dying someone dying I never had close contact with someone today really you know ever been to a funeral yeah tell me about it who's here uh my Grandma Helen's if it wasn't a Cascade or anything it wasn't open we asked it through a body anywhere so as a memorial service has contrasted with a funeral where there's a casket right how well did you know your your grandmother pretty well yeah you were or were not around her as she became infirm or became ill and approached it I wasn't around there um that you were close to was she living nearby or you see her authorization gosh she lived in Santa Clarita which is kind of north of L.A so close by how old were you the last time you saw her oh I don't remember when she died little boy adolescent Colin no uh I think it was undergraduate trip had anybody Close to You Friend School mate died before that nope had you lost any pets uh one natural causes tell me about that what was that uh had a labrador named zubi and I think a Scottish Terrier he would be tell me about the dogs they're very loyal dogs they like to play fetch you're picturing those dogs aren't you yeah how old are you in the picture oh I'm not in the picture because I'm seeing it through my eyes I guess how old were you when you had the dogs when the dogs were in your life Hallelujah I guess like something to read and how did they leave you how did they die um well zubi couldn't get up anymore because he had like bad hips so we had that put him down and then wouldn't be I guess got sick I don't know what you can't sick with it now too you were pretty young but did you go to the vet when they the dogs down no they actually like brought the event to the house Were You There When the vet euthanized it up no how did you learn that the dogs had been put to sleep oh my gosh Holmes had not experienced any traumatic events dealing with death even the passing of his childhood pets was dealt with outside of his presence sometimes trauma can spark Obsession but this is yet another dead end to discovering Holmes's obsession with death did they warn you that they were going to do that um I don't remember it didn't seem so that normally because they depreciated would you have appreciated a warning um yeah it couldn't hurt do you remember how you felt when those dogs were put to sleep well I said it now I uh climbed a tree and cried were they both put to sleep but close to the same time close intervals yeah I I was older by the past seven or eight I was like the early teens early they've been with you a long time yeah were those your first dogs yeah we had a third dog that we caught later called Rocky it was a poodle but zombie and would be windy yeah is it being wimpy you sort of grew up with this outside yep do you remember anything that your parents might have told you even after they put the dogs to sleep about the nature of dogs and the nature of people dying or dogs dying getting old no there's nothing surprising but you have a memory of climbing up in the tree and weeping crying yep the country was oh I think it was a eucalyptus tree by yourself yeah you ever tell anybody that story oh no pretty personal story and the family got another dog oh big pardon yeah when you moved away Riverside Colorado did you have a pet um no any other experiences with them animals or people well my other grandma died too up close to her dying for you I was in San Diego and she was in Carmel so like eight hours a week about how old were you oh I don't remember little guy teenager College it was either a high school or college I don't really exactly exactly do you remember how you learned about her passing uh yeah my mom said she had gotten sick after visiting her so you saw her I didn't sit here my mom I had visited her okay you remember how you felt when she died I was sad I have some good memories with her or no yeah Christmas is together do you remember whether you cried or not um no I didn't pray how about for the other grandmother no I didn't pray for her either what do you make of the fact that you crack for the dogs and not for the grandmothers I was younger anything else oh by the way I don't think it's unusual that a boy cries more for the dog than for grandmother okay you were with the dog every day pretty much question do you have a view oh let me go back some years in when you were younger high school college or at the time that these people in the past died did you have a view then about what happened after they died what happens after death but just a dreamless sleep Holmes had limited contact with his grandmothers so it isn't abnormal that he had a closer emotional attachment to his dogs he was able to exhibit grief for each death which shows that he wasn't emotionally detached he seized death as final but also as a generally peaceful State a dream of sleep yeah did then apply to both the dogs and the grandmothers yeah where did you get that feeling of the dream of sleep what or do you suppose that idea came from I guess I just absorbed it I'm sorry I just absorbed it on my surroundings what do you mean I don't understand um I I just thought that was the way things would work you don't recall it being something that Mom said or dancing no I think did you ever have any thoughts about an afterlife for the dogs or for the grandmothers uh no I don't believe it afterwards but when you were a little kid oh well I knew about heaven and hell but I didn't think it would apply apply to that it wasn't the way things worked and how about now I still believe in the dream I sleep do you think much about it no not really I think much about your own death nope there was a possibility that you would have died in the shooting and I wouldn't have to worry about anything else when the officers drove up remember what their names are do everybody ever tell you what their names were I forget what their names are what was the circumstance in which the officers drove up or came to you after this evening um well they drove up behind the theater because everything happened behind the theater at that point and they were looking at theater eight and they had their backs to me even though I had a a gun right next to me and stuff so I didn't shoot them but then they came towards me I put my hands up and then they knew I wasn't police why were you outside the theater and not inside I left the theater at that point and went out the back had you finished or were you getting ready to go back in or um no at that point I just decided I was done yeah so it wasn't that they interrupted you you had decided that you were done no I could have kept on shooting and that's really what I was asking without the police being there what would have happened um all the magazine jammed so my main would have been malfunctioned but she had three others I had two others on me and I would have had to reload the shot in order to take so much in time so essentially I only had the one-handed so absent the police what would have happened if there were no police if the cops hadn't come up to you what would you have been doing they didn't come up to me I just I left the theater and then they appeared I understand the police did not stop homes Holmes had already decided he was done if he had been more determined the devastation could have been even greater you left the theater you're outside the theater Door and the police don't see our presence they are present but if they were not what would have happened today I would have driven away okay I don't know where I would have driven though okay so you were I didn't have a plan either way you were finished with the inside of the theater you weren't going to go back can I go back again okay okay you would have somehow driven him away you didn't have a plan after shooting in the theater I can now plan whether to die or not or to drive away or where I would go I kind of left that all up to spur of the moment what do you think of it and here's what I mean the planning for what went on in the theater was ridiculous I'm sorry I'm taking you ridiculous good word the planning for what would happen afterward was the captain completely accurate non-existent it's like life stops with the theater yep and that was definitely a possibility a possibility but only a possibility not a security so what um what I'm asking you is looking back what do you think about the fact that all planning ended with the shooting at the theater didn't even include getting the car driving away except that you had some Road stars and some first aid stuff right what do you think about that I think I didn't think it through very well then but you're a smart guy and be an extreme planner great it seems illogical that you wouldn't think it through and yet I believe you when you say you didn't think it through so what is it that causes a smart guy an extreme planner not to think it through Beyond the shooting because I kind of figured my life would end at the shootings two ways for your life to get literally configuratively it sounds like you have no plan no hope no wish for things to go further for your life to go further except basic biological instinct to survive but in your planning a crook but a crook the criminal yeah would figure out where he was going to live where he was going to get food where he was going to get money things like that all that was going to be determined for me so I didn't have to plan anything in so I would go to jail or I would die and then things would take their own course was there any third possibility jail or die was there any third possibility well there's the third possibility of getting away but I didn't consider that consider that negligent no no and we're looking back about the way you were thinking at that time not the way you thinking today but the way you're thinking at that time it's like well yeah at what point in your planning in your contemplation of the mission which you got in the mission did it become either jail or die and no other real no other real possibility at what point do you think you realize that or do you think that was a fact in your plan um I think it was early on at least because I uh I did a status post name on my match.com will you visit me in prison so I kind of knew at that point I would either go to prison or die or go to prison and I saw that posting wasn't just thought or random or for a fact that posting was anticipating the consequences rather specifically anticipating and that's the way you remember it yep roughly when did that voting take place about how I have no idea how long before the shooting the week before a few days before it could have been as long as a month before but they don't think so there were things that could have stopped the chain of events mentioned for example if the FBI had stopped you from going into the theater right I think we talked about that yesterday the day before as maybe even a wish that would happen or no or ever misunderstand me I hope I hope can you describe it for me help me understand that you hoped the FBI by Safi or a part of you did right before going to the theater Holmes called a mental health Hotline in the hope that someone would talk him out of what he was about to do but the person who was perfectly capable physically of stopping they were you didn't didn't stop I had a purpose to fulfill but it would have been okay with you in fact you hoped it if somebody else stopped your purpose name of the FBI uh yeah that's also why I think I went to a psychiatrist in the first place and told him about the homicide on the way to the theater Holmes mailed a journal containing his thoughts and plans to a psychiatrist that sort of sounds like there were two parts of it going on one part that wanted to proceed in the other part that didn't does that make sense um yes there's an internal hot food they're big words psychobanko crap okay but it sounds like there were two parts of you one that wanted to proceed everyone that didn't yeah or am I missed if I'm if I'm misexplaining it then please correct me well what I wanted to read fixed to be normal and the other was to carry out the machine was the you that you thought wasn't normal was that the thing that was creating the mission or was that the normal you the thing that was creating the mission I don't think there is you don't think there's any part of it as normal no not like that is figuring myself as afternoon the going to see the growth of infant seeking up or seeking it's okay did they have to do you think now with stopping you one way or another or with fixing you or with something yeah with treating me what was if you can remember what was the thought what was the hope in your mind get the jokes and then I'd be better but it is I'm happening I got the drugs in it abolished my anxiety like her fear of other people maybe even facilitating it so when you got the drugs your anxiety and other people decreased yeah that was one of the main reasons I had also told her why he came to see her was to reduce the anxiety coming down to what happened you got the drugs I'm just saying what you said I want to be sure that it was accurate and complete in my mind the anxiety with people decreased it was easier to be around to people yeah okay the medication made it easier for homes to be around people unfortunately it also made him less anxious about the consequences of his actions did it change the way you felt about the people that it was now easier to be around I just didn't fear them I'm sorry the last couple of days we've talked about you hating them you're phrase was like you hate broccoli yeah not a I want to hurt you hate but hey I want to get away I want to avoid you yeah is that that's what I heard that's right okay okay um so the like I said my experience what did the shootings have to do if anything with hating people just so they make me anxious because they make me anxious I hate them you've described that hatred as wanting to avoid because they make me anxious I want to avoid them right and you were pretty careful I think to say you did not mean because they make me anxious I'm mad at them and I want to kill them no because I wasn't mad at anybody in the theater what I'm trying to put together is and it may not go together the shooting of the people in theater doesn't sound like it has anything to do with I want to avoid people I hate broccoli and I want to avoid it I hate people and I want to avoid them that doesn't lead in my simple mind to a situation where you kill people now this was not a simple situation I understand right but if if you kill them then you're not dealing with them terrible eating them on the other hand you don't have to go to the theater in the first place right because there are other ways to avoid them besides killing yeah and you said earlier that The Killing had to do with assuming some of their value right okay the two things go together or are they somehow put together they're a completely different reasons okay did they coexist in the killing or was the hating like broccoli a separate thing and didn't have to do with each other okay and by the way I want you to know and whoever wants to take them that we're talking about something that was two years ago right when you were in a very different state of mind at least in some ways than you are today that makes sense yeah okay the things that might have helped what you call the drugs and maybe there were other things in my account um there were two three kinds that were tried as I recall right um propane along and surgery did you take those things as prescribed as directed okay and what was the result but you already told me that you're you're avoidance of people went down decreased right anything else happen with regard to the medications no not really were there any problems with the medications that it was with the clonazepam it had side effects what side effects did it have that you recall maybe like tired and unable to focus this leads one to question whether or not Holmes could have followed through on his plan if he had stayed on that particular medication so did you not take it because it made you tired and unable to focus I took it for about a week and then I I'd say it's obviously kind of interested invented um that I didn't then she said to stop picking it so I stopped okay you stopped seeing them um at some point I'm trying to think of the order of the appointments you kept every appointment that was made as I recall yeah okay um but at the last appointment you communicated in some way that this was going to be the life support okay and as our call even left a little underneath this is it is that accurate yeah why did you make that your last appointment I don't know why if there was a a wish to fix you or to on the one hand fix things fix your mind and on the other hand prevent a mission from taking place prevent the the track that things are on to stop that yeah I kind of overruled the treatment it overruled the treatment yeah pretty strong force yeah where it is such a strong force come from I don't mind I'm sorry I took hold of my mind took hold of your mother there are some pretty strong forces that take hold of people's minds sometimes the the impulse to drink for alcoholics a shoot up for parameters he said do other things yep any thoughts about why this took such irrevocable hold of your mind such unbeatable hold of your mind I don't know why I nominated but it didn't but it didn't such a thing yeah did you think of any other ways to stop it well at that point I was more concerned with going through with it stalking me going through with it the picture in your mind was that everything was going to end with the mission but as you didn't plan beyond the mission it sounds as if and once again correct me if I'm wrong that nothing existed for you of import beyond the mission right did you see anything about the mission that said it was a wrong thing to do thank you um I'm not sure seems like a pretty simple question um well I knew it was legally yeah I'm thinking more about inside you you're a person going through life at that point you haven't been arrested that you're thinking you may well be arrested or may be killed Holmes knew at the time that killing someone was legally wrong regardless of his personal beliefs this is another reason why the jury did not accept the insanity plea no matter what you do if I'm thinking right about the way you would think life is going to end one of two ways you're going to be killed are you going to be put in prison arrested but between here and those things thing that on July 1st 5th 19th 20th people that are going to be killed and wounded is there anything wrong with doing that in in your state at that time um I just consider the numbers really about people how's that well I considered knew it was going to be a number of people that died kind of inconglomerate Mass but as you went into the theater you saw individual people buying tickets getting popcorn no it was I looked at all the other people you must have visited bumped into it you looked at him one way I didn't like singled amount as individuals as you drove to the theater you didn't go out of your way to hit pedestrians or run over dogs I was concentrating on getting to the theater without getting pulled over let me come back to the to the concept of the things that lay that point between you and dying or being arrested those two things did ever cross your mind that you were going to hurt people um not real people it was just kind of amorphous people are going to get hurt not uh John Doe if a little old lady had crossed the street in front of you on the way to the theater would you put on your record whatever we didn't okay why what because what would have gone into avoiding that person that would have interfered with me carrying out the plan in going to the theater and that's the only reason you would have avoided hitting the Little League uh plus that's kind of personal maybe a little late no more never started before in your life you don't know her name I like you I guess it's not personal I'm sorry it's not personal this will be and once again this is kind of a rhetorical question but I'd like an answer the only reason you wouldn't hit the little old lady is that it might interfere with your getting to the theater for your mission well and I didn't plan on hitting it would have been a surprise and this this way this is a kind of a hypothetical question doesn't really exist but it may give us some insight into the way you were thinking you are you are not safe one of the things you're not saying and perhaps they're saying something you're not saying that that's the only reason you wouldn't have hit the Lulu lady um right I'm saying there's another reason and there are the reasons as I didn't plan to hit an old lady was it prepared for it so it would have come as a kind of a shock and so the two reasons that you wouldn't have hit the like Italy is it a it would have interfered with the mission and B it would have been some visceral reaction to an unplanned situation that sounds about not to hit the little link man put things into perspective Holmes would have avoided hitting the hypothetical woman with his car but he would have shot the same woman in the movie theater the people who were in the theater how do you feel about them now I don't know they're gonna make me know that's true you mean yeah I expect so let me go back to just after the shootings happened in the day or two after the shooting said okay you say okay okay um did you have any thoughts about the victims the people that were shot Etc um no I just uh heard the numbers let's say over 50 women 12 today what came to mind as you heard the numbers it was new information I didn't know that while I was in the theater any feelings come to my any pictures or feelings come to mind and she got that information um just that it was worth 12 more people than I was before did the wounded count in in your worth in in that way of thinking about things or no I only count fatalities so is there a difference in the way you think about the wounded and the way you think about the deceased about it oh yes and what are the two ways that you think about it what are the two ways what are the ways to think about the dead or just the way you think about the word um well the debt can't be repaired to come back to life or be normal again so it's irreversible and what I heard you say was that that accrues to something positive for you right what about the wounded uh they're like Collateral Damage I guess wait any thoughts about them after the event I regret they had to be grounded in what sense do you regret that excuse me in what sense what I guess what do you mean by I regret that they had to be one uh rather than like the bullets just missing them or something do you think there was any chance at all that the bullets would just miss people unless they were destined to die I think it was statistical issue enough bullets do a criminal period to hit somebody can you help me understand the regret that you felt that they had to be one well they just they get debilitated something that paralyzed or resumes and like it's too bad that could have been avoided Holmes has a mild sense of regret toward the people he wounded but that doesn't seem to extend to the fatalities well they couldn't be overrated because I'm basically shooting blind into this crowd of people so but that's the way you set it up right so I couldn't be able to but that's the way you set it up so if I had set it up differently and like aimed specifically for the people I guess it could have been different you set it up so that people would be wounded not killed does that make sense not intentionally I set it up so that people retire how is it not intentional that you set up a situation you planned it meticulously use your word that you wouldn't be able to see whether or aim will right so which is the way that people get more personal which is the way that people get wounded instead of killed so I know a way to make it impersonal and still be able to kill them but once again you're a smart guy and you plan meticulously I think of situations and it's a hypothetical thought of course of snipers we get very very good at what they do tend to kill rather than wound right well they said my aim wasn't that great so I couldn't really do a sniper okay we can pick a different way to do it my point is that intellectually your argument it seems to be failing to me that people got wounded because of the way you set it up right that's true because of the way you say no yes the people who were killed that as I understand it there's no regret or less regret for the ones that were killed because you you accrue their value they set the way you felt at that time is it that right right um did you have any thought about those that they left behind oh they're also collateral damage the argument begins to sound pretty quickly like the ends justify the means makes sense yeah if that's not a reasonable way to think about it I really would like to hear how you put your view of it was at that time not necessarily looking back at it but what your view was at that time and before the shootings the there was an awareness at least intellectual awareness it seems to me of lots of collateral damage right but the end Justified the means is that a reasonable way of thinking about it there was no way you avoid it and with that plan with that plan there was always doing away and I was already dedicated to the plan please post a lot you into that plan just says it's realistic and it could be done but the collateral damage was part of the realistic part that was going to happen well I didn't figure the collateral damage had anything to do with me really after after the crime it wouldn't matter to to you or to anybody to me would it matter to somebody else certainly or people who are injured yeah how much of the people who were family members of the people who've done yeah I loved you okay Holmes considers the victims to be collateral damage their lives have no meaning outside of how they benefit him did those folks come to mind at all even as it's logical that this will happen but the end justifies the means there was no fear of consequences I'm sorry there was no fear of consequences was there any awareness of consequences um yes okay I'm curious as to how you made the awareness of consequences evolved into a lack of fear or concern about the consequences I don't understand the question I don't think you're a cruel guy okay I don't either okay I don't think you're approved you don't go out and I mean in the lab you may sacrifice rats okay right but you don't go out and hit little old ladies and you cry when your dog knocks you don't go and torture animals or anything I don't think you're a cool guy okay but somehow once again correct me if I'm wrong the awareness that other people would be badly hurt was not enough to stop the mission and it sounds as if you're telling me that the awareness that they would be hurt somehow became a lack of concern about the consequences did them or anybody else right can you help me with how that why that is the way it is and why is sort of an odd question sometimes why it's not the right question but but it may be in this case I'm wondering about the process How does it go from there are going to be many people hurt in lots of different ways how does it move from okay that's going to happen but I'm going to do it anyway and I have no concern for the consequences because I think in general we do have concern for at least many other people right so that's all kind of appearing now that it's after the fact that it's happening but before it happened I wasn't counting on on dealing with any of it because I could have died and you're bringing another another part into it that might be real important he said not dealing with it I'm not remembering your exact person but not dealing with the consequences right so now I have to deal with the consequences before the shootings I didn't think so I wasn't wouldn't have to deal with the consequences right after the shoot were you concerned with the wounded or whether anybody was going to get hurt at the apartment I inquire if a child was hurt because they saw a sign that said like child division homicide or something as you came into the the Aurora yeah did anybody tell you one way or the other whether a child was hurt no they were amazing but I put it together what did you continue that a child was killed the next day I think how did you react at that time when you put that together they tried to minimize uh child fatalities display choosing midnight PG-13 okay so it would be grown-ups at that showing of that particular movie is that what you're saying that was what was intended here so it would be like once you learned that a child was killed if you could kill the child uh you know it was a remorseful tell me more remorse remorse those three syllables tell me more in one simple words or so I haven't found and I was sad and a childhood you didn't think much of them yeah yeah do you still think much about them I don't know how it could have been appointed though other than changing your plan into something else if you had known that a child was going to be killed would you have changed the plans do you think no I think I would still carrying them out if you had known that lots of children were going to be hurt dozens of children were going to be hurt and then I'd have to change the plan to make it impersonal and not with children and you're aware that dozens of children were I'm not aware of that once again you're a smart guy you think about the plan meticulously right but not much about the consequences right what about the children of people who are killed are they hurt um I didn't consider family and friends or the deceased or the wounded what do you think now um are the children hurt when their parents are killed I have they hurt when their parents are wounded William yeah so at least in that sense dozens of children were hurt indirectly the children are still hurt yeah does that make you feel anything as we talk not so great tell me a little more what do you mean that's okay well it wasn't my intention to kill children or leave them parentless like that stuff soon after the shootings days we did you think that there were some children did it occur to you that there were some children who were parents who are elected who were parentless who'd lost one or both parents um no I never took that perspective it ever crossed your mind other than taking the perspective they never cross your mind that there were children who now had lost a parent I'd only considered the children get picked directly to her as you're approaching the mission approaching the shooting it sounds as if it didn't occur to you one way or another it did not occur to you some of the people that were that were going to be killed would be parents oh no I agree you've talked about remorse grit you've used the word a couple of times almost and I'm not sure of the feeling that goes into the words can you help me understand the feeling that goes into the words remorse and regret as you're using the last couple of days with me that's kind of hard because they are the descriptors of the feeling what are some other ways to describe the feelings that you have about remorse and breath if you have an assuming I don't know do you have those people sometimes when did that come to you when do those feelings come I just want an alone to myself that's a lot you're alone right any particular time of the day or night that those feelings come to you um not really you know sometimes make it hard to sleep for example no was there any time you've been in jail for a couple of years now was there any time early middle late that the feelings were more or less interfered more or less with you they were more right after shortly after tell me what that was like I'm interested in what that was like I don't know what to tell you just tell me what it was like what was it what was it like soon after the shooter what you feeling okay well now what now what am I going to do situation now in what context now what am I going to do right but I don't understand quite what you now what am I going to do that's kind of how I felt homes are not planned beyond the shooting and he was at a complete loss once he was finished I just wanted to let you know real quick that my merch shop strangerlabel.com has a ton of quality and unique designs that you can purchase right now and by doing so support the channel at the same time items like the architect and the interrogator hoodies the mentally checked out and the stranger t-shirts the do not cross Muggin the All-Seeing beanie are all there and available check out these and other items I have to offer on strangerlabel.com and don't forget to use code stranger15 to get an extra 15 off your entire order and with that out of the way let's get back to the case what am I going to do for lunch or what am I going to do with the rest of my life in the long term I guess anything else about the way you felt about remorse and regret after this year right after this year oh no the folks that died the value or what's the best what are the best words to use the value of the power that they had that occurs to you what's what's the best word to use what what comes to you as a result of your time their value their value can you describe to me what value means in that sense um just what they're worth and what do you mean they're worth I don't know how else to explain it lots of kinds of work what kind of work do you mean they're worth in totality earning potential value of the chemicals that make up their bodies what what do you mean just their value as a human being their values are human being does that bring up any thoughts or pictures of what one's value as a human being means or what it is I just uh designated arbitrary value of like one to each person I want to ask one what one value unit is a value unit a big thing really really significant or is a value unit the little thing and it takes lots of them to make up something significant uh one is significant enough what is significant enough that you have 12. right okay their value as a human being does that seem to jibe with your effort to not see them as human beings or is that much I have not seen them as individuals like personally individuals I don't mean to be playing games with you but you did see them as human being because that's their value right as a human being they have this value and I take that a year wasn't successful uh yes input way for you wasn't successful I increased my self-worth and I didn't have to die I couldn't talk to me about how your self-worth is increased in what way you see that uh well it's at a value of 13. in what way then are you enhanced I wear 13 whereas on all versions worth one or the only person who sees that his worth has increased is homes he completely misses the fact that too almost everyone else he is seen as less than he was before do you feel that value 13 or 12 times more than you did before theoretically yes yes how about really um well it's only theoretical in nature no it's pretty real in nature how about really what do you feel in terms of the feeling of increase in in you and your quarter through great man worth is a lot more and what do you feel is more what does that feel like to be more um I guess that I feel better than before okay many many times better lots and lots better incrementally better uh should you put your finger on any of the things that trouble you less for example or that you do better now than you did before July 20th uh you're kind of getting at what the value actually is sure uh see it's just in value otherwise it's just keeping score I'm asking you what is it that is better about you in your view or that feels better okay um that I didn't have to suicide for sure you sometimes think about suicide since the killings are done oh yes a lot or just a moment um a lot every day maybe you once a week so is that better or not better or the same as it was before my environment's worse so it's I'd say it's about the same before the killings you weren't aware of feeling suicide that's what you said I transferred them yeah you weren't aware of feeling suicidal is what you said did I misunderstand it or did you mistake when I would feel suicidal I would transfer that actually you were you were pretty specific that you never felt suicidal that's right because I would change up what you felt was homicidal and you deduced that the homicidal was preventing the suicidal figures am I remembering that right yeah okay and now you do feel suicide wanting to hurt yourself when they kill yourself is that right yeah I've already done the homicide um how strongly do the suicidal feelings get sometimes what's the worst thing here um just make it bad and what's that how can you explain to me what bad is how bad are you oh where is it contemplating and planned to suicide have you tried it um yes and no yes tell me about the yes part uh I like was a trying to bang my head open in the cell they tried to put me in the whole or suicide watch it provinces with pretty much in the months leading up to the shooting Holmes showed no sign that he was suicidal and put considerable effort into ensuring that he remained alive doors that was the day that you were that you fell backwards off your bunk right okay and did you you also banged your head against the wall on that day um in the suicide watch yeah yes okay I've seen both those cells as you know when I was when I was there a week or two ago okay um how many times did you fall backward or completely twice the took me to suicide watch on the second time you remember the thoughts you were having at that time when you were thinking about it or doing it falling backwards from here I don't know why I was falling back here do you remember the thoughts you were having what you were thinking about oh no you remember climbing up on the boat and backwards let's take a little at a time you climbed up on the boat you remember standing on the phone yes I remember seeing you in one of the cell videos standing up your phone oh yeah and you're looking chemistry okay like this what happens next what kind of slow motion what happened to me I just lean back and then fall what did you think might happen or what were your thoughts then about what might happen when you film it I don't know what I was thinking and they put you in the hole Yeah that's a pretty crappy place to be uh yeah very very Barbarian tell me about being there um well first off I couldn't see getting down my contacts and uh people have like scratched a bunch of stuff into the walls and I started inter pret with messages do you remember what was scratching the walls or what your interpretation was at that time well something scratched like Ethiopia I thought that was kind of applicable of applicable applicable in what way and that it was kind of an Ethiopian environment okay and I didn't realize you didn't have your contacts at the time that you couldn't see or you couldn't see very well before that in the days before this happened had you been getting your contacts regularly and able to win yeah but it had them out because I was going to go to sleep build it what time of day was it that he was at night okay it was at night so that's right yeah did you ask for your contacts no for glasses or something I figured there wasn't much to see you that must have made it even worse I guess that'd be good to see at some point they came in stretched into a chair and started an IV but maybe that didn't help I'd like to hear more about that I think I'm going to stop for a minute okay Holmes has more to say but the interview has already been over five hours so this session is brought to a close it sounds like a period once again crappy experience yep once you get anything that you want me to leave with any thoughts you want me to leave with nope okay thanks for talking with me again and I'll see you tomorrow okay all right okay Holmes has more to say that the interview has already been over five hours so this session is brought to a close after numerous delays Holmes's trial was set for April 27 2015. the trial began with opening arguments by the prosecution explaining that Holmes intentionally went to the movie theater that evening with a deliberate intent to kill as many people as possible in a mass shooting spree the defense opened their argument by admitting the facts that Holmes was the shooter but said that he was mentally ill with severe schizophrenia and was never in control of his right mind on May 27th Dr William Reed a court appointed psychiatrist who interviewed Holmes for a total of about 22 hours testified that Holmes was mentally ill but legally sane he diagnosed him as having schizotypal personality disorder which is characterized by constricted behavior and difficulties relating to others read and another doctor evaluated homes in December 2013 determining him to be legally sane and said that his mental illness did not prevent him from forming intent and knowing the consequences of his actions on July 16 2015 after deliberating for over 12 hours the jurors found Holmes guilty on all 24 counts of first-degree murder 140 counts of attempted first-degree murder one count of possessing explosives at a sentence enhancement of a crime of violence James Holmes was sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole after jurors failed to agree on a death sentence unanimously Wonder was opposed to sentencing homes to death due to his mental health issues while two other jurors were uncertain on August 26th the judge sentenced homes to 12 consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole for the murder charges and an additional 3 318 years for the attempted murder and explosive possession charge thanks again for watching don't forget to like the video and if you want to support the channel even more there's a patreon link in the description below stay safe and I'll see you in the next video