You're going to be under arrest for capital murder. Excuse me? Capital murder. No, no, no. This is Michael Payton and right here, in this very moment, he realizes the game is over. His secret is out and he knows he's not going home tonight. Please tell me this is not true. Your daughter is deceased. This case is a reminder. If your big plan is amnesia, you might want to forget that plan, too. Let me get the person who's going to swab your hands real quick. And then we'll do that and get those handcuffs off of you, okay? You need something? I'll just sit here and wait. Okay, you need something to drink, anything? Please. Water okay? Was that quick enough for you, brother? You go by Mike or Michael? Usually Mike. Hm? Usually Mike. Okay. Can you stand up for me? I'm going to get those handcuffs off of you, okay? All right, whenever I take these handcuffs off of you, I just need you to sit back down on the chair for me, okay? No problem. They're not completely off. I'm going to let you sit back down and turn around and then I'll take them off the front side, okay? This is who I was talking about was going to take a swab of your hands, okay? Are you okay with her doing that? No problem. She's going to get some DNA so she knows what's happening. Okay. We're going to let her do this and get out of here and then I'm all yours to answer any question you have, okay, buddy? On February 19th, 2021, Michael Payton called 911 saying, "I just killed my whole family." And that there was a fire in the master bedroom. When officers got there, they found his wife, Tamara Jo Payton, and their two kids, Kendall, 14, and Evan, 13, all dead. They arrested Michael right away and brought him in for questioning. You've got a bruise right here. Is this old? Yes, it's a couple days old. Couple days old, okay. Anything on the back side? No cuts or anything? Okay. Do you mind if I look at your shirt for a minute? Um You got a I can't tell if that's a scratch over here. You got a cat or something at the house? Three dogs and Three dogs and a cat. Looks like you got maybe a cat scratch over here on the left side. Probably one of the puppies. Puppy? Can I stand for a minute? Yes, sir. Absolutely. Go ahead. I was in that car for You were sitting there for a long time. Give me just a second. Uh here's your cup of water, Mike. Mike, I'm going to go ahead and introduce myself. I haven't met you before. Uh my name's Joshua Armstrong, okay? I don't know if we shake hands. You know, coronavirus is kind of I don't know. We stay at home. We both work from home. Okay. What do you do for a living? Work for Raytheon. Huh? Raytheon. Raytheon. Is that the oil or gas or Defense. Okay, yeah, that's right. Mike, I told you my name's Joshua Armstrong. This is uh Kyle Peck, okay? Okay. We're both with the Flower Mound Police Department. You were in the back of that patrol car for a long time. Are your legs okay? They get on on a sleep? My right one's still trying, but I'm okay. I might stand up every now So, you can If you need to stand up, just tell me you need to stand up, okay? I'm going to let you read this at the same time I read it, okay? Um it says you have the right to remain silent and not make any statement at all. Anything you say can and will be used against you at your trial. You have the right to terminate this interview at any time. Do you understand each of these rights, Mike? I understand that. Yes, I understand that. Okay. We can answer any questions you have uh here in just a minute, okay? Um you said you do understand your rights? Okay, with your rights in mind, do you want to speak with me now? I don't know if I need a lawyer or I don't know. That's okay That's a complete personal decision on yours, Mike. Uh I just need to make sure that you do understand your rights and then if you want a lawyer, you know, you can let me know and we can get you one. And uh and you know obviously I think you've got some questions that you were trying to ask me a minute ago. I do, but I don't know why I've been arrested. So, I feel like I need somebody to help me with what's going on. Cuz I don't have any idea what's going on. Well, to be perfectly honest with you, neither one of us have an idea of what's going on right now, either, because we haven't spoke with you yet. If that makes sense. It does. So, we really don't know We don't know what's going on. I think I think our hope was that you would help us figure out what's going on as much as us help you figure out I don't know I don't know what happened. Are you You sound really short of breath. Do you have asthma or medical condition or anything or are you just tired or I'm stressed out. This really stressed I don't know what's happening. Uh I just want to clarify before before I ask you any questions or you ask me any questions. Um you said you did understand your rights. You do want to speak with me, correct? Here's a subtle tactic of reframing hesitation as cooperation. It's gentle manipulation which is done through rhythm and reassurance. I start, but I don't know. If I start getting overwhelmed, I want somebody to >> You can stop the interview at any time. Okay. What was What was your question? You were trying to ask me some questions when we were coming up the stairway. I don't know what's happening. I don't I don't remember what happened. I remember working this afternoon. What do you do for Raytheon? Configurations. So, basically I I make sure everything is right before it gets released. Check drawings or documents or whatever. >> I really don't know what Raytheon does. What do they do? Defense. Missiles, aerospace. So, are you still employed? Is Is Raytheon a Is it a private contractor? Uh Is it contracted through the government? >> and stuff, yeah. Okay. Mainly government contracts. What do What is it that you do for them? The configuration stuff. I run a meeting every month with the Navy. I check all the drawings. Uh for my programs. Make sure everything's right. I make sure that the markings are correct so that we're protected. Government will highlight, you know, copyright and all that. That fun stuff. Is it like classified type of stuff or No, I have my class or I've been cleared classified, but I don't work on a classified program currently. Okay. Forgive me, I don't know much about I wasn't in the I don't know much about I'm still learning. How did you get in Were you in the military? Is that how you got into that or I got into it later after I got my degree. Is that something anybody can do or Like do you need some kind of What's the degree in? My degree is in engineering physics. Okay. So, that's why that's the the physics part of it, I guess. Um not necessarily for what I do right now, but I can use it for stuff. I understand electronics, schematics, and I don't understand any electronics or schematics. Were you in the military at all? I was in the Marine Corps. And how long were you there? 6 years. 6 years? Did you get deployed at all? I got injured on prep for deployment, so I didn't I hurt my ankle. Bad or Sprained it real bad, enough that it would have delayed me past shipping out, so I didn't deploy. In the Marine Corps, communications tech. So, I fixed the radios. >> a pretty impressive background. Between the Marine Corps and then the Raytheon stuff. Try. Right now it sounds like small talk. Just a guy chatting about his job, his routine, his life. A few questions about work and before you know it, they're walking you straight into your own story. Well, tell me a little bit I don't I don't know anything about you, Michael. Uh I'm I'm trying to piece together the puzzle, I think, the same way you are. Tell me a little bit about yourself. What do you What do you like doing? What's your family like? And who Do you know what I mean? My wife and I have been together since I was 19 and she was 18. We have two kids. She's a nurse. My daughter's a swimmer. Pretty good. Son's high-functioning autistic. But he manages some days. Other days that all doesn't help. I like music. You collect vinyl? A lot of it? I just started not too long ago, probably 2 years ago. How much do you think you got? 40, 50 albums. Okay. I'm not hardcore yet. Well, Mike, the only thing I know about that is my father-in-law was a radio DJ for like 34, 40 years, a long time. And so he came to live he needed a place to live when he moved. So he lived with us for a little bit and he brought these wooden crates. I guess they're made specifically because they're the size of the vinyl records that fit in. He probably had like 30 of these wooden crates full of vinyl records that we had to move in and then move out. You know how moving goes, but so he had a huge vinyl collection, but I think he's throwing all his down now. I mean I like music, I like hanging out with my kids. I've been binge watching a TV show lately. It's on Netflix. We've been doing an episode or two. What show is it? Supernatural. You seen Supernatural? I don't know. I don't know that I've even heard of it. So we've been we've been watching that. Play video games every once in a while, but I'm not that into it. It's just something to occupy my time. I've been getting back into working out recently. Trying to better myself. You going to gym or doing it at home? Gym, but we're working on buying something for the house. Like a home gym thing you got in the garage? What uh You said your son's high functioning autistic. How old is your son? 13. 13. What when you say high functioning there's so many different kinds of autism out there. What is what is his specific He's um anxiety uh He has kind of not antisocial, but he busy social environments. He had a delayed learning. He didn't speak until he was like four. And so usually the like I said the Adderall tends to help Some days it does, some days it doesn't. He's very easily addicted to screens. Addicted to what? Screens like video games, his phone, net stuff like that. He does taekwondo. Seems to enjoy that. That gives him some some structure. Focus. Yeah. It gives him something like specific movements, so he's able to practice it and He's still talking about his wife and kids like they're alive. Like they're waiting for him back home. That disconnect is guilt fighting to stay buried. How old was your daughter? I don't know how old she was. How old is she? You said she does some swimming stuff? Yeah, she is 14. What does she do swimming wise? All the strokes. Mhm. Why did you say I'm just trying to learn who your family is. I don't know anything about them. You said how old she was. Mhm. I I don't know why I said that. I'm just trying to figure out about your family. Just really trying to figure out you and She swims. She swims whatever events and the meets are open and you schedule whatever events that you want the kids to swim. It's not structured. I mean sometimes the coaches will say I want you in this event. Like the different strokes and like like Michael Phelps kind of stuff like the butterfly and all that stuff. Yeah, there's only four strokes. Uh Why do you think we're here today? I'm I'm confused on why we are here. The small talk ends here. Now they're going to be talking about what really happened inside that burning house. You don't remember anything from today? All I can think of is the other day my wife was We haven't talking lately. We haven't been We've been struggling a little bit. I've been trying to work on it. I was going to counseling. I haven't been in a few weeks. I was going to be going to counseling. And um We were struggling on Saturday night. She had one of the guns and saying the only way out Said what on the phone? >> She said the only way out was basically herself and I wouldn't leave the room. I wouldn't leave her alone. Kept trying to get the gun away from her. And after about two hours I got it away from her. But told me that basically called them to try to get her some help. They'd take her nursing license away. I didn't know what to do. And her best friend came over. And she ended up staying the night. I think that was Sunday night cuz she was there all day. Monday when we were working. And I've been watching I've been afraid that she was going to hurt herself. And then I hid the guns. And Who's her best friend? Her name's Heather. She work with her or high school friend or They're friends from like middle school. Detectives had expanded their circle and interviewed Tamara's closest friends, Heather and Gina. And through those conversations a disturbing emotional pattern began to form. Josh wants to talk. This is my cell phone number. Has your mother told you any details or you looked on social media or I just saw it on Mhm. Just saw it on social media. What did your mother tell you? Is that like Facebook or She just told me what my mom said. I had then I saw one article that had nothing on it and that was after I found out. Since then I haven't gotten on social media or looked at anything. Um this is going to be a hard conversation cuz I know you all are best friends, but I just want to make sure that you do also know the facts as well as you giving me the facts. I'm correct. Um He did He did shoot them. All three of them. And he's been arrested. He's in jail. Um but there's things that he said when I spoke with him um that made me want to speak with you. Um And from what I understand with your mother I I talked to her a little bit last night. Um and it sounded like she actually knew a little bit of the information. I guess maybe you had been kind of keeping her in the loop on what was going on with with them and I guess they've been having some marital problems and stuff like that. Yeah. Okay. Um I'm just going to kind kind of let you talk and just about them, their family, you know, what's going on with them. I found out I don't know till about October. She finally told me that they were having issues. And that she'd been unhappy for years. Um but it wasn't till last year that she realized that she was at the point of no return. Like there was no saving it. And the reason she hadn't left earlier is because she wanted to make sure that he would be mentally able to manage on his own when she was when she wasn't there. That way he could still be a functioning dad to the kids. Cuz he was always a great dad. When you say mentally able, what does that mean? Like so like no self harm. Okay, so he was >> She was more worried about him harming himself than anything. Did he have a history of that or No. Or just a concern of hers? >> Just just a concern that she felt that that would be something that he might do. The relationship between Tamara and Michael wasn't normal by any stretch. Both struggled with self harm and together it was like two storms colliding. Um So she was worried about his mental state. He's always been a good dad. Has there been any any history of violence or anything he's [Music] violently? Other Other than what I don't know what he did while he was in the Marine Corps cuz that's not something that I he really ever talked about. I know she may have known some of it, but like violence at home Okay. Anything that you know or saw that was like would scare you or concern you or or this is just like complete >> Just that with some of the things that she would tell me like how he would he cornered her in the closet the other night. It was going on for hours about how they could fix their marriage to make it work and Cornered her in the closet? >> Yeah. She didn't He didn't She didn't say he didn't He touched her physically or anything, just wouldn't wouldn't let her get away from him to not have the conversation and give her the space. Okay. So it's been an active argument about he wants to work the marriage out and she doesn't. Mhm. Um when was this? That was two Tuesday I think. When is the last time you saw her in person? It was Wednesday. This Wednesday? This Wednesday before it happened. Um everything seemed fine. I We got there late Tuesday night and I Her and I He slept on the couch. Her and I slept in the master bedroom. And in the morning we were three of us even had like friendly conversation. We're joking about the cat lawyer memes. Uh and during the night it was a pretty pretty normal morning. He made us coffee and everything seemed stable. At least like there was nothing that was telling me that there's a huge red flag. Was there a specific reason that you went and stayed the night over there? Or >> Because he had cornered her and he wouldn't give her space and I typically I'm usually the buffer. Okay. And it gave her the space she needed and I got there you could tell she'd been crying all day. Her eyes were really puffy. They They were kind of swollen shut. They were so puffy. If you need a third party to communicate in a relationship or if you're begging for space and not getting any, that's something too close to hostage negotiation. Now on my Patreon, watch the interrogation of a father accused of killing his baby. The detective snaps and starts hitting him on camera. See the full video at patreon.com/ strangestoriesplus. I'm sure you're aware we're having a tough conversation. So we better sit down. Okay. You here by yourself? No, uh my friend is in here with me. It's like a little apartment in here. Yeah. Is this a hotel or an apartment or A hotel. I guess it's both. They have some Long term stay stuff? Yeah. Cool. It's not too bad. Got your own bedroom in here, washer, dryer, full kitchen. You can live here. My name's Josh Armstrong. Do you mind if we record this? Yeah, that's My name's Josh Armstrong and this is Calvin. Okay. Uh we're both with the police department. Have you talked with uh Have you Uh Has she talked to us? No. Okay. Um We didn't uh We didn't know anything about you until we spoke with Heather and we're like, "Man, we should have had her just come up here with you if y'all were together." But Yeah. Um So and obviously um Tamara's been been killed. I mean there's There's no easy way to put that. I didn't know. I'm like I'm shocked. How long have you known Tamara? 2 months. 2 months? And this is a new relationship between y'all or Um yeah, I haven't actually met her in person. Okay. It's been on online type of thing. How did y'all become acquainted with each other and So um we're all part of I don't know if you're familiar with Kik. Um Heather told me a little bit about Kik but I didn't I've never used it. Okay. So it's like um like a what's Like a social media type of chat thing and um there's a lot of like groups. So my friend added me to like it's a first responders uh health care professionals type group thing where like um it's firefighters, nurses, like all of us kind of do something and like say different things and just chat. And she was in the group that I was added to and that's how me and her met and you know we started chatting and we were just became kind of really good friends and I was planning on coming here a few months ago. So you know I told her I'm in the area, let's meet up. And you know she was down for that and then that's how I met Heather too. Gina, who's a nurse, had just been through the whole COVID chaos. After the vaccine rollout, she just wanted a breather and a short trip to meet her online friend Tamara. But instead of a peaceful vacation, she discovered that her friend is dead. Um That helps That helps us a lot now understand the relationship and how how y'all know each other and stuff like that. Um the specific reason why we wanted to come talk with you is because um I guess Tamara but y'all don't call her Tamara. Uh TJ Tamara. TJ. Okay. TJ messaged you? Y'all were messaging back and forth last night? And so that's why we specifically wanted to talk to you and see um what did What do you know about TJ um primarily to her relationship? Um is there any insight that you can tell us that maybe she told you >> my phone please? Absolutely. So Okay. Do you want me to tell you what I know about her first and then we can talk about the situation? >> So I mean I don't really know if it's online like we get kind of personal in these groups just because we're all going through a lot right now as first responders and health care professionals. So we kind of use it as a venting tool um but we all kind of remain anonymous at the same time. Uh so like we don't put our real names on this app or like any personal information. Um but because I've been talking to her so long, you know I felt comfortable kind of breaking that seal I guess for saying with her. Um and I've only done that with a couple people from the chat. And so you know we We've talked a lot in the group like every day almost. Um we have like a girls group with nurses that you know she talked about guys, you know she talked about her marriage a few times. And then you know She's you know she mentioned that she was just really very unhappy. It's been Yeah, cuz I'm also going through a divorce. So we kind of like connected over that and she said you know like she feels like she could leave yet but she needs to. Um she's miserable, unhappy. Uh it's the kids. They've been together since they were 18 she said. But she said he's very controlling. Um She said that I think this was a while ago. She did mention about him at some point getting physical I want to say but she didn't say exactly what or like but that's kind of what she insinuated. You know and that's when I told her like you need to get out but you know it just seemed like she just couldn't leave him. And that this has been going on for like a long time. I mean I I don't even know anything else about her husband like I don't even know his name but from what she talks about him, she's just you know unhappy. Tamara wasn't happy in her marriage and there was a reason for that. A specific painful one. I think we need to be relevant. Just him not giving her space. He was She felt like she was being babysitted cuz he was always hovering, always around. If she would go to the closet to do something, he'd be right there. If she went to the bedroom, he'd follow her to the bedroom. And driving her up the wall just cuz she couldn't I guess the most best way to equate it is it's like having a toddler follow you around to the bathroom. You can't even go pee by yourself. I know that. Cuz I have two small children. I have two small children and they don't let me go to the bathroom alone. I'll shut the door and I'm like, "Oh, I'm alone." 2 seconds later they're like, "Mom." Yeah, just anything that gives you that that gives you that feeling in your gut that something ain't right. Tamara had emotionally checked out but Michael couldn't or wouldn't accept that reality. He interpreted her withdrawal as a challenge instead of a conclusion. And that denial or inability to release control is a very volatile affair that can easily become lethal. Today's Friday. So last Sunday night this still happened. Did you end up ever contacting anybody or you just kind of let let the friend kind of I called the friend I've been talking to her. She was doing better through it. She was talking to me. And I opened it up and that's thought we were doing better and she agreed that she'd do couples counseling with me. And So I said to her you know she's been waffling on it back and forth for about a month. She agreed she'd go. Told me I might not like all her answers but that she would go because I thought it was important. And so I was going to look into I mean that was Okay. And so you said you had the guns. Where'd you hide those at? Um I had one of them was up in my office that I was I don't use it this week but I've been using it for a few months. And in the extra bedroom upstairs. And then it was up there and then the other one was I had it in a bag. I was planning on putting them in my truck and trying to find a friend to take them to for a little while until it all blew over and I felt like she was better. How many guns do y'all have? >> Two. Are they both handguns or rifles? Uh uh. So both handguns. Do you know what they are? There's a Walther. It's a .22 and a 9 mm Springfield. Springfield. I used to have a Springfield 9 mm. I just traded it for a Glock. I didn't really like Glocks. I didn't like them until I started carrying them. I learned to love them so it was a it was a a transfer but they're very very simple to use and operate and take down and clean and interchange parts and and all that stuff so I switched everything over and got rid of my Springfield. See, Michael might have been very intelligent but emotionally he was blind. He didn't see that his wife had already moved on. And that push-pull between wanting to stay and wanting to leave destroyed everything in its path, including their kids. Is there anything about Tamara that was Did she have any issues? Was she ever violent with him? Did she ever She never He was physically abusive to him that you know of or not? I don't know that. Um any kind of physical abuse or any kind of abuse at all that you know that would be similar on the children or the children ever involved in anything? Everything from the kids then they hadn't even told the kids they were having issues. She was ready to They were going to sit down and tell tell the kids, but then his dad ended up in the ER and they went to Colorado for a week and so they didn't get to talk to the kids. And then it was just one thing after another and they still hadn't had a chance to tell the kids that they were having issues. But any kind of violence or abuse and none that I am aware of. Okay. The saddest part of this case is what happened to the kids who had nothing to do with any of this and were dragged into their emotional storm. We don't even know much about them. But what we do know is they didn't deserve this ending. Is there Has has Tamara ever had any kind of anxiety, depression, things of that nature? Um other than everything going on with Mike the past month or so, yeah, it's been taking a toll on her mentally because she always He was always around and she never got time for herself like just time to be alone per se. And so I know that that was causing her to be a little depressed. >> Obviously. But like a history of it? No. Okay. I asked you if Mike had any history that you knew of suicidal thoughts and stuff like that. Did she have any kind of history of suicidal thoughts or actions? I don't know. What happened this past Tuesday? When he wouldn't leave her alone, she wanted out. What happened then? Um she didn't do it. I came over and would just wouldn't let her make it talk to her and told her I was like this is what you want to do. I was like you have two reasons to live upstairs. >> I know it's I know it's hard, but can you tell me all of the details that you know about that specific event? Just that he cornered her. And when she was texting me, it was the texts that were like um I have I I think it's actual text. It was very vague and ambiguous, but when I was a teenager I had thought about suicide too. And so just And she said there's only one way out. And she said she's going to end it for good. And she says it's the only way. She's like and I she kept saying she's like I'm sorry, it's the only way. I can't live like this. I want it to be over. It will be over soon. Only one step. He won't let me go. No it's And then I told her I was coming over. She said no, it's not safe to drive and and then I told her that I was coming She kept saying She said Heather, I'm okay. It will be okay. It's the only way. And then I told her that I was I would told her I was coming over. When y'all saw each other in person when you got there, did she go into detail about the event at all? About any of that? Just that he was going on and on same thing about wanting like trying to make it work that she needs to put the effort into making it work and just things that same conversations they've been having is just a barrage of it. Did he tell you anything that happened? Did he speak to you at all? Not about anything that happened. When you got there, where was she at? She was in the bedroom in the bed. Laying down? She was sitting up. Anything about her Did she say how she was going to try to kill herself or anything or was just kind of vague text? >> Just that he took the gun away. So I would assume that she had a gun. Was that in one of the deals that you sent me in the screenshot? It was a It was verbal. Okay. >> She knows I was there. So she told you that she had a gun? No, just that Mike took it. Mike took it. Did So you did that mean she actually like had a gun in her hand and he took it out of her hand? >> don't know. I didn't ask specifically. Okay. Anything about what Mike did with the gun? I I don't know. Do you know how many guns they have in that house? >> Two. Two. Do you know what they are? She told me. Told you then or previously? >> Previously what they were. Okay. Rifles or handguns? Both of them. Both are handguns. Okay. Do you know where they normally kept those guns at? I thought in the closet, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't It's not something I went looking for. What's something in detail y'all spoke about? Okay. I want you to be I want you to understand what I'm asking cuz I know some questions that I'm asking. I don't want you to read too far into it. No, no. Um I'm not insinuating that that she killed herself or anything like that. I just have to ask certain questions of you because you were there for that event. And I want to make sure that we have the whole picture um so that white collar cases where you know this either a plea deal or goes to trial. And if this ends up in a trial, then I want all of our ducks in a row. I don't want I don't want anything behind the defense table that we don't know about previously. Okay. Um and so don't don't think that we're um you know trying to insinuate anything like that. We just want to make sure that we have all of our stuff lined out and we have it very accurate so that there's no surprises and we can do the absolute best job to get justice for her. Um is there any details about that incident that she said about um the gun, having the gun, going to use the gun, pointing the gun, anything at all other than Mike took the gun? Other than Oh, just that he took it. Okay. So she's actually texting you while she's in the closet? No. It says been begging >> Oh, yeah. Been begging for 15 minutes to let me go and you responded back he won't let you go. He has made that Well, no. Saying that he won't He's not willing to give up on the marriage. >> Okay, this is then not talking specifically about the closet, just talking about the marriage in general. >> Yes, yes. Detectives needed to confirm if Heather knew more. And the weirdest detail was that Tamara was hiding inside a closet just to get away from Michael. Not because he was threatening her physically, but because of the obsession. He kept repeating that Tamara was his soulmate, the love of his life. He just couldn't quit. On one hand, it's heartbreaking when one person moves on and the other can't. But on the other hand, it's terrifying because when someone refuses to let go, love becomes something a lot darker. Has uh has your wife ever had any suicidal stuff prior to this week? A couple of years ago she had thoughts of it. We worked through Hm? We worked through it. Worked through it. Has she ever had any kind of a medical treatment for her or anything like that? She She just started opening up about when she was in maybe middle school or high school she went to counseling. Just recently told me that you know she was abused when she was a kid. Okay. And then that's why she's been not wanting to go to therapy with me because she didn't like the experience. Physical abuse or sexual abuse? Sexual from what she's told me. Do you know who it was that done it to her like a family or a boyfriend? >> it was friends of her dad and maybe her stepdad. Oh. What she She told me about one including when she was living with her dad in Michigan, there was um the neighbor. She was babysitting and woke up to him over her and there was other ones that she hadn't told me about, but she told me that there Oh, so you just like not just one thing or not just one person, kind of multiple. And so she's she's struggled with that before. Um so like so we we worked through it. I've been trying to work through the issues that we've been having that I was having. I've never been great with sharing my emotions and that's why I went to counseling. Um trying to be better I'm a little better dad. I've been able to reconnect with my kids a lot like Mhm. We've had a lot more conversations and daughter opens up to me a lot more. It's always a good effort trying to be better for someone, but self-improvement means nothing when the other person just needs space. It's crucial in any relationship, especially one that's emotionally charged. Without it, even good intentions can feel like control. So that was another thing she Yeah, I mean she did say I don't remember I This is just so long ago that I don't remember specifics, but I do remember I do remember her saying at some point he got like she felt like a little intimidated by him like intimidated that he might physically do something. That's why I told her like you need to get out you know this that. Has she ever had any events where where she's had mental breakdowns and tried to harm herself or anything of that incidents where that she that you know about? She did not I know Heather told me this morning about you know last week but she never told me anything about wanting to harm herself or anyone else. Was that before Heather came and spoke with us? Yes, that was before. Um Yeah, I haven't spoken to her since she called me from the station. I just texted her the other night but um She I mean there were times where she was she told me she was crying you know cuz she was upset cuz she got in a fight. She's intimidated by him. That word intimidated says everything. It's not necessarily the fear of violence. It can even be fear of presence of unpredictability and of someone who loves you in a way that suffocates. What's um had she told you anything about like were they trying to hurt were they What were their plans? Were they trying to work it out? Were they going to split up? Were they trying to divide assets? What were they What was their She said she didn't say that she said she'd been trying for years. They were trying to work things out for years and she just can't do it anymore. Like exactly like that. She pretty much said um and that you know she's just been trying to leave sort of thing but he like I mean guilt trips her. But that like she hasn't been in love with him for like at least a year. Do you know a specific time where she Has she told him like hey the marriage is over or they or is he still under the impression they're trying to work things out? She made it sound like she told him multiple times that she was not happy that she was out. Um I guess last night when she texted me she said I told him I'm done. I thought that meant I'm done with because she was doing a lot of work yesterday cuz she was catching up since you know she lost power for a little bit. So I didn't really think anything of it but Heather told me that she said no she told him that she's done with the marriage. Cuz I guess she told Heather something similar. And you know she knows her better so I was like oh I didn't realize that. Cuz she had texted me cuz she wasn't sure she'd be able to come out tonight because of all the work she had to do. And then I said no problem. You know I we ended up pushing the reservation out. So she said you know she would come. She's like I you know I'm going to come blah blah blah I just got out of the shower I might be late but I'll be there. Talking about last night? Yeah and then she said I'll text you when I leave. I said okay. Whether Tamara explicitly said it's over doesn't even matter. The emotional reality was that the relationship was already dead. Have you ever read the book Five Love Languages? Um I think I've heard of it. I think I found it on a website. I think I found a quiz for it and then with this she and I actually took it a week or two ago. Okay, so recent then. What was uh her love language? Um There's Uh there was I'm trying to remember the five of them. There's Affirmation was Words of affirmation. >> Yeah. Gifting wasn't high but it was higher than mine. Receiving gifts. Yeah, the gift >> Um the one where you do things for like you clean the house. Huh? Act of service. Okay, that I feel like act of service and affirmation were her high were her high two. Um And then of course the intimate side of it you know that's most men but We never never really had a problem with that. 17 years we never really had a problem there. Me and my wife had a friend of ours give us that book and we read it and it was it kind of puts things in perspective like because you're raised a certain way by your parents and she's raised a certain way by her parents and you know I mean you kind of got to understand this is how this person thinks or perceives or whatever so um it really helped us because my wife's grandmother always bought her gifts. Like they never they never said I love you they never like they didn't come up and give you a hug you know they they just like their way of showing love was you know hey here's a birthday present or here's a gift or here's this and so that's that's how she was. And so you know it kind of opened my eyes a little bit on okay let me see things from her perspective instead of mine. I took this some books and workbooks and stuff with me when a friend who from high school and she got divorced not long ago and I asked her and what do you wish you did differently and she she said that she would she would have done that She's on some her church cuz we're not overly religious but she was telling me like you know church has a lot of resources Now, look at the detective here. This guy knows what he's doing. He's using personal stories as emotional bridges. With a first-time offender especially those tied to family crimes like Michael who's not a career criminal guilt is buried under emotion. And emotion is what you have to reach to get to the truth. And there's something really interesting about the setup here. The detective sits slightly angled not facing Michael directly. Possibly a non-verbal cue of I'm not here to attack you. It is even effective in making Michael feel less watched and less cornered. Mike can you can you just walk me through what you do remember from today and that way we can kind of try to piece together why we're here today? I don't know what I can do. I was talking to one of my coworkers. Or I think I took a shower. I think I went back down and my wife and I were talking about wanting to buy a new mattress the one we have is too soft. It dips really bad in the middle. I don't remember. Is it normal for you not to remember your day? No. You feel >> It happened the other night. Um when her best friend came over I was still awake. It was I don't know what time it was. You'd be surprised how many people suddenly forget everything once they're in an interrogation room. But statistically amnesia as a legal defense works in less than 1% of violent crime cases. So if you're planning to go with the I don't remember strategy you can also go ahead and forget about winning. They were they had passed out in the bed. And I didn't want to interrupt anything so I sat on the couch. And finally down on the couch passed out. And my wife actually came out to just check on me and she found me on the floor. What happened? I don't know I passed out I don't know. I was tired. I remember standing there thinking I could get on the couch and then I woke up on my back in the middle of the floor. You said a minute ago you had you had them scratches on your back. You said you had how many dogs? Three. Three dogs? What kind of dogs are they? Two pugs and a bulldog. Two pugs and a bulldog? They all stay inside? Mhm. A pain. It's a lot of dogs in the in one house. Yes. Obviously I can't tell you all the details about the case. I understand. But if you do have specific questions if I can't answer them I'll just tell you I can't answer them but I'll I'll answer everything that I can if there's anything that I can answer for you. I don't know if I'm ready yet. Then that's that's perfectly fine. Um and and questions like that that you're probably talking about I probably wouldn't answer anyways um not at this point. Um We do have three dogs and a cat. Um so the house was set on fire. I did read that I didn't it didn't say anything about the extent of it. Um the house that the one room in the house burnt pretty good and there was a lot of smoke. Um and um I believe that the smoke killed all the animals. Um I can tell you that the three dogs and the cat were we found them and they were deceased. But if they if there was additional ones those >> No those that was it. I believe that two pugs >> Two pugs and an English bulldog >> and a cat. Okay. Um Even the family pets weren't spared. By the time the animals were found dead, the relationship had been lifeless for months. Tamara had asked him to focus on himself, but instead of self-reflection he chose self-destruction and took everyone down with him. I'm sorry. I'm having trouble focusing. Why do you think you're having trouble focusing or why do you think you can't remember stuff from today? It's a You asked me to natural remember stuff and it's not that I do all the time. I do sometimes. It's I had a really bad concussion in high school and so my short-term and long-term memory isn't always there. That's one of the areas that pissed my wife off was that we talk and I wouldn't necessarily remember it an hour later and then want to reiterate every go over the conversation. I just want you to I just want you to kind of think real hard and try to go chronological throughout your day today from time you woke up and what happened, you know, what you did, what you ate, what you did for breakfast, and what you did for lunch, and what you did for work, and and just kind of see maybe you can piece together, you know, what happened today and and why we can't remember them. You remember what you ate for breakfast? I didn't. No breakfast at all? I had toast about 11. 11. Did you eat anything for lunch or was that your lunch, the toast? I don't remember. Did you eat anything for dinner tonight? I don't think so. I don't know. He remembers everything except the actual crime. Every detail except the one that matters. You can't forget murder and remember breakfast. And that's exactly what's going to drown his defense because memory loss isn't believable when it's selectively convenient. Does he have any medical conditions or anything that you know about? Not that I know of. Anything that was physical, mental? He may have PS PTSD from the military, maybe. What would make you say that? I don't um Long time I know he's lost friends. Over and I think he was in Afghanistan It's been a long long long time since I thought about his military career. Okay. Um does he have any kind of mental problems? I can see a Is he very Is he smart? Intellectual? Yeah, he's very smart. Very smart? Um Has he ever had any problems remembering things? Any problems not recalling events or Not that I'm aware of. No mental lapses, no Mhm. No hospital stays due to depression or stuff like that? I'm aware of and I've been around He's been around since I was 17. Since you were 17? Mhm. And how old are you now? 34. No, I'm not supposed to ask that. >> I'll be 35 this year. Um well, I wouldn't guess it. Is he ever Y'all ever had a conversation and 5 seconds later you're having the same conversation cuz he didn't remember you just had it? Not with me particularly. Okay, what do you What do you say that? Oh, just how he would go on and on like she would say tell him and I and he just would pretty much ignore it and just keep going Okay. with when it was talking with her. When with other regular conversations we've all been around these never had any issues remembering. Sometimes he'll remember stuff and I'm like, "How did I couldn't even remember?" Okay. I feel like I need to talk to somebody. I can't remember and I don't I don't know what to do. Do you remember the police coming to your house this evening? I remember being on the sidewalk on my face. Okay. Look at me. You look at me, brother. I'm going to be honest with you. Can you be honest with me? You called 911 tonight. You called 911 and you told the dispatcher that you wanted to kill yourself. Do you know why you would tell them that you wanted to kill yourself? In the last 10 years there's been three times that I wanted to kill myself if I said that tonight. If you want me to be honest with you. In the last 10 years you wanted to kill yourself three different times? There's three moments. Three moments? And I never did it. What are those three moments? One of them I got before I went back to school. I got screwed over by my boss. Everything had been going really good. And then I didn't see it coming. I didn't protect myself. And I failed my wife. I failed the kids. And I We were in a really bad place as far as financials go. And I wasn't doing well coping with with it. It was It was a hit to me. And There had been rumors that my wife had slept with a coworker. She told me it wasn't true, but it was just another piece. Something else that adds to stress? Yeah. Now, there were rumors that Tamara might have been getting close to a coworker. But we don't know if it was an actual affair, but what we do know is this. I don't know how much Tamara told you about the kind of online thing she had going on with Dan. He's you know, I also was friends with him on the app as well. We were kind of all in the same group. So, I don't recall any of that. Any specific events about violence, him being physically abusive or hurtful or her being physically abusive or hurtful to him or anything like that? Uh I do remember her saying once that she was crying all day because they were fighting, I guess. Oh, I do remember something actually. The husband left the iPad in her room one night and heard her on the phone with Dan. Like I guess heard their you know, recorded the whole conversation. Um without her knowing and then she found out afterwards when he was sleeping over. And he said she said he put him on the listen to like the first like minute or two and then he had her shut it off. Um How long ago was this? Maybe a month around a few months ago, like 2 months ago. Okay. A month and a half. And then she had that thing going on Dan you know, which was like really intense even though they never met. Like it seemed like it was they were really really close. What do you mean by intense? Mhm. Intense in the aspect of Like she told me she was like in love with him. You know, she wanted to be with him like one day, but then at the same time she knew it was not realistic. They were just really really close. Like she just made it sound like they were involved. That type of thing. Did Dan know all of her stuff too about the husband and his problems and stuff like that or was or did she keep that stuff away from him? Yeah, I think she definitely said she So, he sent me a I had to break the news to him this morning. He lives in Costa Rica. And I guess he's on a like his mountain house where the Wi-Fi is not good, so he couldn't talk on the phone. So, he had to text him. He sent me a screenshot of the last conversation, you know, them talking which was like a minute before me and her texted last. Um and it sounded like she was talking about him, the husband. Um He just got out of the shower. He said, "Who's on?" Then she said, "I told Mike." Which I'm assuming that's her husband. "I'm done. I'm staying with Gina tonight with me." She asked if she could stay over. He goes, "Oh, what happened?" She said, "I can't do this anymore. My mental I can't handle him coming and then I got cut off." It says A. I don't And then did he do something? Oh, he did. And that's all him trying to message her. Could that have been what triggered him? The idea that she'd moved on while he was still holding on? That is a realistic possibility. When you said that the she wanted him to fix himself first, work on himself first. Mhm. What what did she mean by that? Their communication was lacking. He didn't express his emotions well. Okay. >> And he kind of just needed to he he kicked her like emotionally kicked her out and wasn't letting her back in. And he needed to focus on that. Okay. As far as you know, was there anything um Do you know uh I'm I'm not trying to talk ill about your your your friend. I just want to I got to ask. Is there any she cheating on him anything seeing anybody else? She he knew it was a online affair, let's say. Cuz he lives in Costa Rica. He knew it was nothing that would ever physically happen. Okay. But he knew that she was having this online affair. >> Since October, he knew. He he found out before I did. So he found out October of 2020? Mhm. This past October. When did it get when was it ended? No, she told him that it she wasn't ending it. Oh, okay. And that a while ago. So she's was still currently talking to this other guy. In Costa Rica. >> mhm And he knew. And he oh yeah, he knew. How did he find out? Um she said his name in her sleep. She said like it up front. And then I guess he just confronted her about it or he >> Yeah, he asked her who that was and she wasn't going to lie to him, so she told him. I'm guessing you have no idea how to get in contact with this old boy in Costa Rica. What do you need to know? Well, hell yeah. What? What's his name? His name's Dan. Last name I don't have. Do you know how they communicated? They primarily did on Kik and Snapchat. Dan. Do you know Does he have a phone number or Kik account? No phone number. I can reach him on Snapchat and that's about it. Do you have him on your Snapchat? I do. Will you go to his profile and and screenshot his uh username? It means I'm going to open the snap and I don't want to open it. Yeah. Cuz he was he was worried about her. And I'm sure he already knows. Do you want us to open it? No, just He just found it only says he's so worried. Okay. But if he already knew about it, does the motive still hold? That's the question detectives needed answered. If you're into clean designs with a criminal twist, you want to check out what's live right now on strangerlabel.com. From heavyweight t-shirts and hoodies to tank tops and sweatshirts, it's all made for fans of mystery, suspense, and everything in between. Take a minute, browse over at strangerlabel.com, and let's get back to the case. Uh she I know she said that they used to have like an open marriage. They used to have an open marriage? Um where she did say a story once where um I guess she was over at another man's house and um the wife of the guy walked in on that and then at you know, their kids swam together, so when she saw Mara's wife then at the swimming pool she went up to him and like told him what she saw and I guess he said, "Yeah, I know. I have the pictures. Want to see them?" or like something like that. Like he already knew about it, so um she made it sound like they had like kind of an open marriage type thing at some point. I'm not really sure if that was still the case now, but or how long ago that was, but that was the story she did mention about him. Other than that, that he was controlling. Cuz you know, I had a recent experience with someone controlling, so that's when she kind of opened up about the marriage a little bit. That you know, who's really controlling and this and that. You know, always wants to be with her. Makes her feel guilty when she wants to do things for herself. That type of thing. Any reason to believe this dude's lying about who he is or anything sketchy about him? Mhm. No. No. I don't think so. His name is actually Jose. Jose? Yeah. Which he told me he didn't share with Mara. I don't know why. I guess he was embarrassed because he wanted to sound like more white, he said. But he changed his name to Dan. Um When did he tell you this? Um like a month ago, maybe. Have you shared that with Mara? No, I didn't cuz I didn't feel like it was my place. So his name is really Jose. Yeah. Jose was like Dan. I was about to get Dan. Um Was there I know this may seem silly, but I'm just trying to get a a clear picture of what was going on. And was was there a sexual relationship between the two of them like were they doing sex texting and sending pictures and and you know, sex talking all that stuff? >> Yes. Um did and you may not know the answer to this question because you and Mara hadn't met in person or whatever, but did Mara's husband know that side of it? Yes, from what I'm aware. That there was a sexual side of it. Yes. Did she just tell you that her husband knew about that or I She said that he knew everything. So he knew everything. What is Do you call him Jose or Dan? Jose. I was going to get confusing if she showed up to dinner last night and you said Jose and she said Dan. Yeah, I know. I mentioned that. I said, "You know, if I slip by accident, sorry, but I I mean I felt kind of weird, to be honest, that she didn't know his real name, but Yeah, especially if it's this I mean, this involved Yeah. Involved intimacy kind of thing. He was really weird even about telling me, but I'm the type of person like if I'm going to give you my Snapchat name or something like that, I need to know your real name. And I knew his real name wasn't Dan. Like he was supposed to be Mara's husband in Costa Rica. I insisted. I said, "I you know, you have to tell me your real name." And then he finally he told me, but he it took him a little bit. He was very like uncomfortable about it. Is Is Dan just a friend to you and Heather or is he is he not more flirty and stuff like that with y'all, too? I mean, he's flirty, but me and him are friends. Anything ever cross the line past friends? Uh no. I mean, he tried to, you know, a while ago, but I was with someone and you know, I kind of had to turn him down, but A while ago like while he was involved with This is before they were kind of like like, you know, seriously talking. Um I didn't even know about her. This is when I was in here and when I was here in Dallas, um I met someone that I you know, I ended up being with. It was when he messaged me, you know, kind of flirting and this and that. That's when I told him and That's Sorry, I'm trying to figure out my camera. And then he said, "I'd rather have you as as a friend than nothing." That's all it was. The reason I'm asking is does is does Jose only have Mara in this online relationship thing or is Jose got multiple women the same way? Does that make sense? Yeah, no. Um I'm kind of saying it wrong. Before he did have a lot of different type of uh online relationships. I guess this is a COVID, you know, he was having a difficult time dating or whatever, so he kind of just wanted me to stick with the online thing. And he did have a bunch of like women he was talking to, but then at some point decided that they wanted to be serious, I guess, and that's when he kind of cut everyone else off. So you feel that he was solely focused on Mara. Yeah, because even in the groups that we were in, everyone knew that they were kind of an item. Like they you know, he was very open about it. And other people. If you'll send your stuff to me real quick, I'll make sure that comes through. So they needed to check the other man, Dan. They had to because in investigations like this, nothing can be assumed. Because if there was any chance someone else was involved, they had to rule it out before drawing conclusions. Why were you wanting to hurt yourself today? I don't know. I don't know. I want to help you, Mara, but you've got to remember. I know. I'm trying since I'm trying to draw my memory. Walk through my day. That's what I was doing the whole time I was in the back of that car. >> I don't know what's happening. I don't know why I'm here. Do you remember anything from today like other than like what you ate? You know, did your did your wife work from home today, too? Or is she going to >> does. Huh? She works remote. Does she Yeah, it's permanent. I'm off for She do that today? Every day. Do you have your off days? Um Saturday and Sunday. Okay. So, she worked today then? And today's Friday. Do y'all work in the same room or separate rooms? This week we worked in the same room just trying to save electricity and heat and everything with what's been going on with the the weather and stuff. And so we were trying to condense where we were so we didn't have to heat as much and use as much electricity. So, I I sat in the chair and she was on the bed. And we were being pretty playful and bantering. I remember that. We were sending each other playful texts. Sending her texts like while you're in the same room together or Yeah, cuz we've always done that. Yeah, just kind of keeping things fun. Well, she's, you know, in a meeting. I can't necessarily say things and stuff. So, So, does she see patients? Like is she like FaceTiming patients or No, they they they contract a pharmaceutical company. Okay. Well, I think we're getting a little bit further because you remember sending text messages to your wife today. So, let's >> About what time do you think that was? Early afternoon. This morning. Okay. Michael thought he was too smart. He thought he could outsmart these cops and get away with it somehow. But what kind of genius thinks killing everyone is a solution? I'm in over my head. Can I talk to a lawyer, please? One more time, sir? Can I talk to a lawyer because I'm in so far over my head. I don't know what's happening. Okay. That's his That's perfectly your right to do so. So, we can get you an attorney to and then uh speak with you after you have an attorney. I'm getting confused. Okay. I hear your questions. I'm sorry. You're perfectly fine. You're going to You are going to be under arrest, okay? And you're going to be taken over to the Collin County Jail. I'm under arrest? You're going to be under arrest for capital murder. Excuse me? Capital murder. No, no, no. This is the most overdramatic realization I have ever seen. Especially bizarre since Michael himself called 911 admitting he shot his wife. So, his did I do it moments kind of rings hollow. You caught me a minute ago whenever I used past tense instead of present tense. No, no, no, no. What now? What now? What now? What now? Here's what I need you to do, Michael, okay? I need you to stand up and turn around and face that wall for me, okay? Stand up for what? Now he's about to throw a performance that'll give you second-hand embarrassment. This is the fakest nervous breakdown you'll ever witness. Michael, don't fall down on me. If you're going to get like that, sit down in the chair. Please tell me it's not true. Please tell me it's not true. Please. Are you talking to me or yourself? Please tell me it's not true. Your daughter is deceased. No. I would never. They're good to go. Yeah, come on. In November 2022, he pleaded guilty to capital murder for killing his wife, Tamara Joe Payton, and their children, Kendall and Evan. On December 1st, 2022, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Thanks again for watching. Don't forget to like the video. 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