All right, let's roll, nerds. [Music] Do you look up the diff the uh the difference between a legal entity or a legal person and a natural person? It'll tell you plain and clear there's a difference and what each one is under, what jurisdiction each one is under. The natural person is under the jurisdiction of common law. The legal person is under the jurisdiction of color of law, legality, legal ease. Welcome to facts or frauds. >> Good morning. This is the time and date for a hearing regarding a show cause regarding a uh alleged violation of an order from Judge Studsman. Uh and the matter is set for this morning. There are two files. I believe the one we're actually in Mr. Thorn the is 255040 CZ the first case. >> That's correct. But we're also I scheduled a hearing and noticed a hearing on the default judgment in 533 also. >> Yes, that was uh scheduled for today because we're all going to be here and so uh that is the other case. Both are entitled Colon Township versus Alfred and Joanne Yoder. Are you Alfred Yoder? >> Yes, sir. >> And you're Joanne Yoder? >> Yes, sir. >> Uh Mr. Lance Thornton is here on behalf of Coen Township. Before we begin, just a couple of matters. Um uh this matter was assigned to me uh after disqualification by Judge Stzman, the circuit court judge. Some of the rulings that are at issue today have already been decided by another judge. Uh the question is the compliance with that judge's order. Uh so now I'm the judge that's hearing it. The township moved to disqualify me. I denied that motion and so we're all here. Just as another aside, um the matter is a public courtroom and people are welcome to be here. uh but um you have to abide by the rules of decorum and even if you don't respect me you have to respect the process. So apparently Judge Stzman had this same issue but uh when I went to leave the courtroom the baiff called for all the people to rise and everyone rose but one person that's Mr. Andrew Brandt. So I asked the baiff to remove him. uh he says he obeys the the law of God, not necessarily the court, and I guess I respect that, but he can do it somewhere else. He isn't going to rise in respect for the court. He's not welcome to be in here. So, he can certainly watch the matter on the live stream. Uh but I asked the bail to remove and apparently he agreed to that. I think the same issue arose in circuit court. All right. Uh, I had recommended not I'd recommend it sincerely that the defendants get counsel in this matter. Uh, they don't have to. Uh, there are some complicated issues here. There are some consequences of of the findings and uh it's my understanding, Mr. Yodor, that you don't wish to have an attorney here at this proceeding and you wish to represent yourself. >> We are currently getting advice and guidance, but we do not have your formal attorney representing us in the court at this time. >> All right, Miss Yoder, you concur with that? >> All right. And my concern was I don't think the advice and guidance you were getting was very good advice or guidance. Um but uh you're of your own free will and you can make those decisions. All right. Ez. >> Yes. >> Before the court proceeds to contempt, we respectfully challenge jurisdiction. Jurisdiction must be report proven on record first. >> All right. Your objection to challenge jurisdiction is denied. Court has jurisdiction. You reside in the state of Michigan. I reside in the state of Michigan. I'm duly elected by the electors of St. Joseph County and I serve under the leadership of the Michigan Supreme Court. This is a constitutionally and then statutoily created court. Uh you're residents of Colon Township. Colon Township is the plaintiff in this matter. You're the defendant and the court has jurisdiction. So that motion is denied. Anything else you want to say before we begin? >> Yeah, your honor. I we respectfully note our objection for the record and reserve all rights to appeal. >> That's appropriate. And uh I'll note any objections you have to the ruling I just made or any other rulings. And you do have a right to appeal. Uh the appeal from this level would be to the Michigan Court of Appeals. So I respect that. Mr. Mr. Thorne, do you wish to set out our road map here for this morning? >> Yes. One of my first questions, your honor, was which matter do we want to start? >> I would. The simpler one is the entry of the default, but let's start with a more difficult one, the contempt issue. That was what was originally set for today. >> Would you wish to speak to that? Sure. Your honor, >> if the court is ready, I would ready to call my first evidentiary witness. >> All right. Why don't you make a brief opening statement to just uh lay it out for everyone that's here. >> Okay. Uh we find ourselves here uh this morning. procedural history of this case was essentially there was a show cause hearing scheduled before Judge Stzman in circuit court. Uh I don't have the exact date of that but the uh Mr. and Mrs. Yoder uh failed to appear for that uh show cause hearing after having been ordered to do so by the circuit court. Uh then we had an another u unscheduled hearing when the Yoders appeared at the court on a different matter. Um, and I participated by Zoom where it's my understanding that essentially the Yoders were arraigned on the uh on the U civil contempt charge and uh this hearing today was scheduled at that hearing uh to address the uh actual evidentiary hearing to determine whether the odors are in contempt. contempt, civil contempt of the court's default judgment and permanent injunction that entered in this matter on March 13 of 2025. In civil contempt, uh you don't necessarily have a right to have an attorney to represent you. You certainly can hire one. There's not uh incarceration possible as a punishment for civil contempt. There is a fine of up to $7,500 and other equitable relief, meaning the court can order that certain things happen. But uh if you're found in contempt, you're not subject to incarceration, at least not for this hearing. Um, and the burden of proof is lower in civil contempt than it is in criminal contempt. It's a burden of preponderance of evidence. But essentially, the allegation is the judge or order ordered back in March that you not do certain things and that you continue to do them. So, the township filed a ordered a show cause. You didn't appear for the show cause. There was a bench warrant. You came in and we took care of the benchmarks and now you're here so we can proceed. All right. Thank you. Anything further? >> No, your honor. >> All right. Uh, the township may call their first witness. >> That I would call Joanne Yoder, your honor. >> Miss Yoder, would you come up into the witness box? In civil contempt, you do not have a right to not testify. If you're charged in a criminal case, you have an absolute right not to testify. In a civil case, you don't have that right and you're subject to being called by the opposing party. So, Miss Yoder, would you come up here in the witness box and then we'll u uh see how we can proceed. Good morning. Would you state your name? >> All right. Have a seat if you would. >> Uh, I know that Amish don't like to swear an oath. So, would you be willing to affirm that any testimony you will give here today will be truthful to the best of your knowledge and belief? I I testify. >> All right. Do you hereby affirm not swear an oath, but affirm that any testimony you give here will be true to the best of your knowledge and belief. All right. Affirm. >> All right. Um Mr. Thornon, you may inquire. >> Mrs. Yoder, if you could uh try to speak up so that the uh the proceedings are being recorded and so that I can also hear and everyone in the courtroom can hear your responses. Okay. The uh Mrs. Yoder uh what where do you live? Where's your residence? Yes, >> I do have a problem with my mind does not work in groups of people is sometimes coming up with answers and to respond. So, please excuse me if I cannot. >> All right. Well, let's see what we can do. Uh, do you live in Colon Township? >> Yes, sir. >> All right. Do you live on Marsh Road? >> What's the number of the house? >> 30158. Actually, I have two addresses that I want to >> 3010 0. >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh, thank you. And it's no fun to sit in a witness box. I've done it myself. Uh I've had little small children in the witness box. Um but uh let's just try to do the best we can here. And in following up, Mrs. Yoder with the two addresses you've confirmed on Marsh Road. The 30158 Marsh Road, is that your home that you actually reside in? >> Yes. >> And then the 3010 Marsh Road, that is a second structure on the same parcel as your home. Is that correct? Yes, sir. >> Uh, and that was built as a home. Is that correct? That second structure? >> Yes. >> And those two, your home that you reside in and this second structure are on the same parcel of property. Is that correct? The two homes are on the same tax parcel. >> And you operate a birthing center in that second structure. Is that correct? >> What what happens in that second structure? Is it empty? Is it occupied? Who occupies it? Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> The private ministry. >> Okay. Uh can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by private ministry? >> Yes. What we have is a private ministry. >> Are there births occurring in that home? >> It's a private ministry. >> That's not my question. I'm I'm asking you, do uh pregnant women give births in that second structure on that parcel? >> I understand it doesn't matter what we do in our ministry. >> Well, that may be your opinion. We'll determine that. Right now, we're just trying to establish what happens. And so uh you are required to answer the question >> that is part of it but it's a private minister. >> Okay. So it's it would be accurate to say that uh the structure is used partly for uh pregnant women to reside there temporarily and give birth. >> Yes. >> With the assistance of a midwife. Yes. >> And this uh this birthing um the use of that structure uh for births. Uh did you used to call that mama's house birth center? >> No sir. You never called it that? >> No. >> Did you have a name for it? Uh or do you have a name for it? >> We did have >> Okay. What What's the name now? >> Mother's House Ministry. >> Was there a prior name? >> Mother's House Being Center. >> Okay. When did that change? February 6 when you had received all the documents of the change. >> I I missed it. February >> February 6, 2025. >> Okay. >> And you have you received all that. We have given you the documents on that that was recorded here at the courthouse. >> My understanding you had a a DBA. Is that correct? A a doing business as name. >> Yes. >> Okay. And so if I'm I'm correct, used to be before February 6, 2025, Mama's House Birthing Center. >> And then after February 6, 2025, you changed the name to Mama's House Ministry. Yes, sir. has the the important date here on my next few questions is going to be March 13 of this year, March 13 of 2025 because that is the date that the default judgment and permanent injunction entered uh by the So, let me start there. Uh, you did receive a copy of the default judgment and permanent injunction, correct? >> I think so. And after that default judgment and permanent injunction entered on March 13, 2025, did you continue to allow uh pregnant women to temporarily reside at the 3010 Marsh Road for the purpose of giving uh birth to their child? Yes, your honor. >> Approximately how many births occur there in a week's time? >> It varies. >> What does it vary from? What would be the low? What would be the high? What is the necessity of this? >> Well, I'm interested too. I don't know if they're having one birth a month or six births a week, so I'm trying to get a sense of it. Bear in mind, I didn't uh start this case. Judge Stman's heard some things that I have not. Um, so I'd like to know the answer to that myself. probably approximately before week >> as an average. Would that be the case prior to March 13 of 2025? >> Probably. >> And would that be the case after March 13 of 2025? probably your honor. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Speak for this little further. >> Well, yes. What would you like to say? >> The first court hearing what he's talking about was all about Mama's House Burden Center and there was I've got proof here where that was all dissolved. And so now it's mama's house ministry. >> So that court hearing what everything that they run through was all in default because there was no such thing. Make a note of that. >> Let me briefly respond, your honor. >> Yeah. uh part of this case. Uh it's not the DBA that's the defendant and it wouldn't be uh the DBA that would be the defendant. It's actually Alfred E. Yoder and Joanne Yoder individually as owners of the property um that were uh made the defendants of this case and that were ordered not to allow the uh birthing center to continue on the property. So, uh I guess it's the township's position that the change of DBA is irrelevant. >> All right. >> Thank you, honor. Then the next thing also so we received a paperwork on the hearing and on the in that paperwork there was nowhere that it gave us to shut down. It says as soon as convenient and that's not an appropriate time because it was never convenient. >> All right. Well, we'll explore that. So, the births that have occurred and are still occurring out there after March 13, 2025, uh, a midwife, uh, assists with those births. Is that correct? >> You have to verbalize your answer. >> Yes. >> Are some of the women giving birth there uh on the property we're talking about? uh after March 13, 2025. Are some of them unrelated to you? >> Yes. They're part of our ministry. >> But they're not a a blood relative or a relative by marriage. >> Some Some are, some aren't. [Music] After March 13, 2025, are are you charging the pregnant women that have birth there any fees for being allowed to to use your property? >> They donate. >> They donate. >> Some pay, some don't. >> Do you have a established donation or a suggested donation? suggested. >> Okay. What is that? >> It's according to how much um I guess how long stay kind of based on length of stay. >> Um so is it like a a room rental fee? >> Yes. Do you have any other fees or or suggested donations uh for the pregnant women that uh come there to have birth such as maybe uh for meals or things like that? >> No. >> So that's included in the other donation you testified about? >> No, no money for food. >> I didn't catch that. >> There's no money for food. Okay. >> So, the the room rental uh you do accept? >> Yes. >> When there is a birth there and again I just want to concentrate now on after March 13, 2025. When there is a birth there, are you required to do any reporting as the owner of the property? >> So, you're not required to report that a birth has occurred. >> They have to have their um documents for birth certificate. That's all. >> Okay. And that's that's what I'm referring to. So, who prepares the documents that are necessary when a birth occurs on your property? >> My wife. >> Do you have anything to do with that? >> I have a >> Okay. So, would it be accurate to say you prepare some of those reports? >> Yes, I do prepare some of the reports. >> Okay. And where do those and these are reports of the mother's name? Is that correct? >> Yes. >> Uh the name given to the child. >> Yes. >> The date of the birth. Is that accurate? >> Just to birth worksheet. >> Okay. So, anything on that worksheet, uh, you fill out or another midwife fills out. Correct? >> Yes. >> Where do those reports then go? >> Here, meaning to the courthouse? >> Yes. >> Would it be accurate to say they go to the county clerk's office here at the courthouse? >> Yes. >> And how often do you make those reports? [Music] Whenever we have a birth >> within hours or days, how often after you have a birth do you make that report and submit >> to have it done within five days? Do you deliver those reports to the courthouse by hand, in person, or do you mail them to the courthouse or is it a combination? >> Both. If I were to indicate that there's been approximately 87 births on your property that we've been discussing here, the that has the two common addresses of 30158 and 3010 Marsh If I were to say that uh there's been approximately 87 births since March 13 of 2025, would you think that would be roughly accurate? >> I have no idea. >> Does it sound way too low, way too high? >> Yes. I don't try. I don't know. Can you tell the court why you're continuing to allow pregnant women to temporarily reside on your property and give birth to children in in contradiction to the default judgment that entered in this case? The number one thing because first court hearing was not appropriate and number two. Section 28, I've got Michigan Constitution. I know you don't like it. You threw it in the trash. Um, section 28, right to productive freedom. Section 20, every individual has a fundamental right to reproductive freedom, which essentials the right to make and effectuate decisions about all matters relating to pregnancy, including but not limited to prenatal care, child birth, postpartum care, contraception, sterilization, abortion care, miscarriage management, and infertility there. An individual's right to reproductive freedom shall not be denied, burdened, or infringed upon unless justified by compelling state in interests achieved by the least restrictive means. Notwithstanding the above, the state may reeregulate the provision of abortion care after fetal vi viability and provided that in no circumstances shall the state prohibit an abortion that in the professional judgment of an attending health care profess professional is medically indicated to protect the life or physical or mental health of a pregnant individual. The state shall not discriminate in the protection of in the protection or enforcement of this fundamental right. The state shall not penalize, persecute or otherwise take adverse action against an individual based on their actual potential perceived or alleged pregnancy outcomes, including but not limited to miscarriage, stillborn, a birth, or abortion. Nor shall a state penalize, prosecute, or otherwise take adverse action against someone for aiding or assisting a pregnant individual in um exercising their right to reproductive freedom with their voluntary consent. For the purposes of this section, a state interest in compelling only if it is for the limited purpose of protecting the health of an individual seeking care consist consistent with accepted clinical standards of practice and evidence-based medicine and does not infringe on the individual's enemous decision making. Fetal viability means the point in pregnancy when in the professional judgment of an attending health care professional and based on the particular facts of the case there is a significant likelihood of the fetus substained survival outside the uterus without the application of extraord extraordinary medical measures. This section shall be self-executing not provision of this section held invalid shall be servable from the remaining portion of the section >> Michigan State Constitution. >> And and just to clarify, Mrs. Yoder, it's not that I don't like the Michigan Constitution or the US Constitution. I have a ton of respect for both. Uh I just don't need to be provided a copy. I have copies of both and access to them. So >> the uh >> very appropriate >> the So if I want to read you paragraph three of the default judgment. the defendants and their agents, servants, assigns and successors in interest and or anyone in active concert or participation with the Yoders with regard to the operation of the birthing center or permanently enjoined from operating a birthing center on the Yodor property. Do you feel you're violating that uh paragraph of the order by continuing to allow pregnant women to come there and have births? >> No, I do not. >> Has anything changed? Let me let me stop you for a moment. >> Okay. Paragraph two precedes paragraph three, but she brought this up. Paragraph two states, Colon Township's request for injunctive relief is granted and the defendant shall cease operation of the birthing center on the Yodor property as soon as reasonably possible. I think that had to do with perhaps you had clients that were in the process and you didn't you didn't want to immediately close it to uh leave some of those women with no prenatal care and no option for birthing except as emergency basis. Well, that was March. It's now September. And what you stated earlier is it it isn't reasonably possible or won't be. Is that part of your argument too that it isn't as soon as reasonably possible uh as of March 13th? Um how do you interpret that? And bear in mind, this is before I got here. Judge Stutzman ordered, "Stop doing this. Uh, the request for injunctive relief is granted," meaning no more operation of a birthing center on that property, and you're to stop as soon as reasonably possible. Uh, and paragraph three makes that injunction permanent from operating a birthing center on that property. Um, so there may be some interpretation about what is reasonably as soon as reasonably possible. I'm sure it's somewhere between March 13th and September 24th. Um, do you know when the last child was born there? How recently did you have a birth? Perfect. Your honor, we made an agreement and I followed the ten commandments. Has there been a birth there in the month of September? >> Because I don't remember the date that we was here. We made an agreement. >> Um agreement with God or with who? to do to not have a birth there. >> Okay. So, you don't right now know when the last birth was? >> No, I do not. >> Uh, was it within the last two weeks? or whatever it was that we was here um that we made an agreement that date was. I'm not sure which date that is. >> I think she was talking about the date the unscheduled hearing. >> Okay. When they >> when they were here at the courthouse and your honor contacted >> that was uh August 29th. So you're saying there haven't been any birth since August 29th. Not not there at the office. >> Okay. >> Just to follow up on your honor's questions, um, how long is the normal stay of a pregnant woman that comes there to have a child? not more than three days. >> And how long before they actually come there do they normally contact you and make arrangements to stay? Would that vary on how you are what you're after as far as when they're they realize they're pregnant or when they're in labor. That can be nine months or are you considering on when they start labor? >> I'm trying to get at when do you schedule them to be at your property to get for how far in advance? Well, they usually uh schedule with us like eight months ahead. A lot of them seven or eight months ahead. But as far as when they're coming in, you can't decide on that until they're starting to hit signs, labor signs, >> until they would begin labor. Correct. Yes. >> All right. So, when they find out they're pregnant, they'll make contact with you to get in connection with your agency or ministry, we'll call it. >> Actually, they don't contact me unless they're my patient. They they contact the midwife and midwife. >> All right. And then as you get closer to the date of birth, that's when they would come in. >> Yes. Sometimes you might not know till that day when they show up. Is that true? >> Yes. >> All right. Did anything change uh other than the name your DBA name? Uh, and I'm talking did anything change in the operation that you had there as far as the pregnant women coming to give birth? Did anything change after you changed the name to Mama's Ministry? Yes, we we have a we have a donation and also they signed to sign an agreement to be a part of the ministry. >> Prior to the name change, you were actually charging, not a donation but an actual charge. Is that correct? >> Yes. So after you changed the name, then you started accepting donations if I'm understanding. >> I I didn't catch that. >> Yes. >> Do most uh women that use your property to give birth make a donation? >> What uh is there an average amount that they donate? probably on the average 400 >> for their stay there. >> Yes. >> Going to take a few moments here, your honor, and see if I can locate the date of the show cause hearing in front of Judge Stman. Let's see if I got it. I got you. All right. In this case, Mrs. Yoder, we had a show cause hearing scheduled for July 2nd of this year at 9:00 a.m. and it uh was scheduled in the courtroom above us here in the same courthouse. Uh, do you agree with that? >> July. >> Yes. >> The court had ordered you to appear to show cause why you should not be held in contempt. I'm trying to think because there was one of them that we made a mistake by not reading everything and found that after the court hearing there wasn't even anything in my name. It was under there was two forms we received. One was for Alfred Efield and one was for Alfred Eagle or nothing for me. >> Are you saying you weren't aware of the hearing? I was aware afterward, but we did file special appearance forms. We had all of our information on there. You received it, you know, and the judge. There was special appearance forms here for you guys. >> Are you saying you contacted the court and say, "Hey, I missed my show cause hearing. I need to reschedu." Is that what you're saying? >> You have the information. >> That's not my question. After after you realized you missed the July 2nd, 2025 hearing, did you contact the court to let them know you missed it and you'd like to reschedu? I I can I turned in information here to give answers to questions because I cannot I I'm I'm confused on which one which dates which. >> Are you aware in the uh default judgment that entered against you and your husband that you were to pay some court cost to Colon Township? Were you aware of that? >> Your honor, can I answer that one for her? >> Um, well, we'll see whether she can answer it and then perhaps uh we'll get the answer from you if we need it. I know I did see something with that, but being it was all um there was so many confused things and so many things illegally written and illegally done and plus it being under mama's house birth center and not even having something like that existing it being a ministry I feel is all in default. So, it would be accurate to say you understood the court ordered you to pay some costs. You just decided not to pay them. Is that correct? >> We paid something. I'm not sure. Was it that or what it was? >> You paid each paid $1,000 cash bond which is still being held. Um, but I don't believe anything was paid other than that. I just feel like I'm not aware of anything else that wasn't >> You have no recollection of paying either my office or going to Coen Township to pay costs in the amount of $26548. Is that accurate? >> I guess I didn't realize that that's not what this the $1,000 is about. Well, it's not what the $1,000 was about. The the $26548 were taxable costs ordered in the default judgment for you and your husband to pay. That's all I have for since you ordered your own. All right, Mr. Done fine. It's not fun as I said being here. Just a minute before you get up and go. Is there anything else you wanted to tell me? I guess most of what I wanted to tell was wanted to say I'm kind of blank on it, but I know we turned in forms to give our speech. Wait so that Lance has one and you have one. >> All right. Thank you. You can step down. This would be a good time to take a recess for everybody. We'll take about 10 minutes and uh we'll be back. Hi. Well, that's just about it. So, so thanks for watching and we'll see you again real soon. >> And thanks for hanging out with us on Facts or Frauds. Make sure you hit the thumbs up button, you're subscribed, and ring that bell. 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