I know I've done some some stuff out there and I don't know if I did this I can't say I did or did I could tell that he was conflicted I could tell that he was either on the verge of saying I'm done take me back or he's going to talk to us there's no reason for your DNA to be underneath her fingernails and she got up grab it and Jennifer wife Laura every single particular this video contains the interview of a convict who has just been matched with the DNA found from a cold case in 2014 Gary Dean Hilfiger was an inmate serving a life sentence for a murder he had committed in 1992. Hilfiger had accepted responsibility for his crimes during a period in his life when he suffered addictions to drugs and alcohol and thought all of that was behind him until investigators informed him that his DNA had been tied to the murder of Flora Rundell in 1989. Hilfiger had been a taxi driver and Rondell became a regular client since she relied on the taxi service as her main form of transportation the two of them struck up a friendly acquaintance and Rundell may have revealed more information than she should one night in October hillthicker broke into rundell's home to look for money he cut the phone cord and stabbed her 11 times yeah I'll get them on handcuff please how are you doing good [Music] to be a while yeah a little bit I think right now I'm just giving the one on not our energy meatballs um he's comfortable if he could have both that'd be great okay all right you see thank you hi Gary my name is uh Ben this is uh my partner Todd to a place to meet you I just wanted to talk to you for just a minute but before we do I thought might like a little uh something different no that's good would you okay well let me pull some [Music] Italian starving yet are you sure that's for sure you eat breakfast so you sure you don't want to soda or something there Gary however how long have you how long have you been over here now the crossroaded I mean it's 22 years for 22 years it's a long time when are you uh when are you scheduled to to get out okay here all right eight year Pearl date so is that 20 20. about no between 22. right yeah oh 2022. that's right we are in 2014 I think in 2012. okay so the reason I wanted to talk to you is your name came up in an investigation and uh I wanted to talk to you about that but obviously you're in prison you're incarcerated so you are if you are in custody so I do need to read you your rights I'm sure you've heard that before or what have you seen it on TV Bill picker is being interviewed about the murder of floral Rundell in 1989. he is currently in prison for the murder of Marcia Haverty which he committed in 1992. Okay so you do have the right to remain silent anything you say can it will be used against you have the right to consult with a lawyer before answering any questions or to have a lawyer with you during any questioning you cannot afford a lawyer want to be provided for you free it costs 511. do you understand your rights as I have explained them to you yeah okay are you willing to talk with me without consulting or having an attorney present with you this time wow well that's what I want to talk to you about that are you willing to talk to me with without having seven eight years so I can talk to you about it or that's that's your choice so you understand your rights as I've explained is that correct okay are you willing to talk with me without consulting or having a lawyer present with you I don't know what you're well you can during the questioning if you don't want to talk to me once we start talking you can stop if that's what you choose to do but before I can talk to you you need to you need to either you either waive your rights or you or you're saying you want an attorney with you before I start talking to you so I leave that to you but I have to this obviously have to read this to you all right okay so are you willing to talk with me without having or Consulting a lawyer or having one present with you up at this point yeah okay so that's yes is that correct yeah okay so what I wanted to talk to you about Gary is this um and before I do I just want to I just want to kind of go over a little something with you um just a little bit of that just a side note story okay and then we'll kind of get into it it was the other night and uh the other night before I went to bed I looked outside and it was a clear blue sky I could see the stars I went to bed when I woke up the next morning I looked out the window and I noticed that the driveway the driveway was wet the sidewalks were wet the street was wet my neighbor's sidewalk was wet the grass was wet obviously what happened it must have what overnight do you think probably rain right because it's all covered it's all wet and uh but I didn't see it rain but I know it rained because clearly I could see that there was moisture all over the sidewalks in the driveway and the grass grass but I can actually see it that even though I didn't see it I know that it had to have rent right does that make sense okay okay so what I want to talk to you about is a case that I'm investigating that I'm not here to talk to you about about if you did it okay I I can see you do it and that's what I want to talk to you about but I want to talk to you about a case of investigating that I know you did and see if you know I I always believe there's two sides to every story and I always like to take both sides to the district attorney's office before I talk to them about cases the investigator is attempting to soften Hill thicker up to make a confession while another murder will not make much difference to the time Hilfiger is serving sometimes a convict will refuse to confess out of spite if you haven't already I highly recommend visiting my patreon page for exclusive and ad-free videos including the intense interrogation of an officer involved in a routine traffic stop gone wrong listen to the shocking events that unfold as an officer crosses the line and employs excessive force this case offers a glimpse into the unsettling reality of when the actions of good people become entangled in tragic circumstances watch this video and explore many more at patreon.com strangers stories Plus at the case of investigating happened back in 1989. and get involved a lady by the name of Flora Reynold she lived she was an elderly lady she lived on it was on the west side of the street I believe during that time you were actually driving for ucad we were a cab driver at the time and uh what happened is on a uh I believe it was on a Sunday it was on October 22nd of 1989. we got a caller over to her house from her sisters who had found her deceased in the house and we investigated that case at that time and since that time obviously you know technology and different things change and investigative tactics change and those types and I was assigned the case and since I've been assigned the case but actually been able to uh form with the case that wasn't able to they weren't able to years ago because of the technology and the difference and what I was able to find is I was able to find your DNA under her fingernails so what I want to talk to you about Gary is this particular case and I want to I want to be able to take your side of the story I know during that time you were involved in drugs I know things were bad for you at that time you know since that time things got I think even worse for you because the incident that you had with the friend you were living with at the time I think even during that time you had made some statements about you know the drugs and the alcohol kind of took over here took over you and uh probably had very dependent on that at the time but I also know since that time Gary that you made some changes and you made some very good changes I know you've been involved in uh never really found Found Jesus Christ Our Savior and I know you changed your ways and I know in the past the past is the past understand that that by what I've seen and the progress that you've made over the years you 've here to talk to you is because I believe you're a changed person I think see when you've been involved in and I believe or is it in the old Door Church of the open door oh yeah and but we're on Ashton Avenue up there in the city and Sunrise to have his church out there and uh this Valley currency involved in the religious Services here at the prison and I've seen that and I obviously could tell that hey you know what Gary's made some very positive changes in his life it's not I don't think I'm talking to the same Gary but it was around 20 30 years ago he's a different person and by seeing how involved you were in in the church and how much change changing you have so tilfiger has turned to religion it will be used to manipulate him and a feeling as if he must confess ing on your shoulders as well knowing full well that and in these churches as we all know I mean part of the repentance is admitting what we've done and what I want to talk to you about is is this particular at what happened and why it happened you're not a bad guy Gary and like I said I'm here because well and I think you've made some changes in people that even have problems can change and one of the reasons why I've waited until now to come and talk to you and see I have been watching over the over the past and I have seen some very positive changes in you so the whereabouts of your front where you're from here sorry I'm from I apologize I'm from the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office so actually we've since changed the name to unified Police Department yeah but we're still a couple of old guys here we're still Sheriff's Office we've been around for about 25 years a piece no and I'm so sorry I failed to introduce myself properly and my partner Clyde yes no we're we're investigators from the Salt Lake County Sheriff's office now again they call the Irvine police departments that but during that time you know we we did investigate this case and uh and like I said I I want to try to get some closure for the family and I think and I think where you've made the changes you've made I think you'd probably like to get some closure as well I I mean I barely remember this this person because I remember her from work and so forth such depression bye-bye did you take her places sometimes right okay but this is I mean I've done so much in my life those days I can't remember because the alcoholics or like this I've been dreamed of myself listen to our Channel through for piano something or something I've worked with a lot of these cases but fear of something I don't know I don't know what's going on there's been some pictures of my life sure yeah I'm fairly smart all right the smartest brand of bars better for the smart one snow over there but this sense of flavor it has been nearly 25 years since the murder and Hilfiger was under the influence most of the time period when it occurred he isn't denying that he is guilty but there is a possibility that he will not be able to recall many details well I can understand which I'm here for now that's okay to really recall everything I know I've done some stuff out there but I don't know if I did this I can't say I did or didn't well and I like I said about the fender yeah I can understand that Gary and that's I'm not here to talk to you about as far as if you did or if you don't do it okay like I said I've got I there's no reason for your DNA to be underneath there's no reason for your DNA to be other places within within her house okay it's not a matter of it's not a matter of if you did it or get into it that's that's why I'm talking to you I wanted to try to clear this up and and find out why I mean what happened that day what happened that night whenever I've had dreams of person I thought I'd sit here how about a good question girl uh this was fine so let's figure this out my head Technologies well you you recognize the name right how do you recognize your name I mean it just something thickness up my head and then whenever he was describing where this would live Rondell used taxis to get around town and Hilfiger was her driver on multiple occasions I used to work at a victory that was right across the right across the street from there I'm upstairs about the truth for the side right and the third way it used to be called uh there's any old home baby no and they didn't want to see her house also a small bit for you but this was a really good that they're mostly right there and that's why we're never here since we started because you know her during that time you were working at a bakery no and never had any conversation with her so the conversations kind of started when you started driving taxi for you cab right that's where the uh started meeting or at because you were oh it says you remember from taking their places I remember the attendance that's why because in fact I was trying to read this whenever the two churches around um well their names yeah there's a picture of her I think I Soldier 3510 against how often did you give her rights oh she she was her mainstream there's like a lot of terrorism backrest what dreams do you remember boys I went on stage about 20 28 South there on the east side of the road that's where you take her you talk to you or no she's very friendly that way to talk and visit Ed a friendly person but she said one time she got to be able to report a little bit with her throughout the time you take and rub your dreams and back for a friendship maybe would you say not a friendship that well enough to conversion with one another one's our tour scores from generalities right do you remember the house that she lived in the house I'll go around the house there isn't it remember so I thought that a lot of bad stuff out there those things those symptoms I'm busy something about child producer and then I said well bro he said man they did it one time or something and I made a remarkable but one time before that she got a car and somebody a friend that was in visiting with me so that's it's really rare remember my friend said to me how many people are going to take you honestly what I don't know if I should say anymore Hilfiger remembers Rondell but not much else although he has been told there is DNA evidence to link him there is no way for him to know whether that is true or not it wouldn't be the first time that someone in his position has been talked into making a false confession changing and what you were doing for yourself and I had noticed the letters that that has correspond with from I've looked on the website of the church in the open door and everyone places actually seem very upfront places incredible places and I know that you participate in both of those churches and I I felt for whatever reason I don't know but I felt that this was the time to come and talk to you and uh turning point in your life and obviously obviously Gary at this time you do I I saved a position near him and you do you have to you're kind of in a Crossroads as what's where you're at you're kind of trying to probably make a decision in your own mind which road to take and one road is the easy road to where you can hide and and you know then you're right eventually it catches up to you and the other road is a rough road and you know you know the other road is a rough road but the internet Road there's there is and that's the right and that's the road that you take a responsibility you're willing to kiss you're willing to get some closure can you take response which I think with the changes you've made in your in your own life I believe at this time here if you're ready to do that I really do I you you are a different person today than you were back then and I understand the drugs and the alcohol they do and we they continue to take people we always time but I do I do believe you've passed that point overcome that problem or that trial in your life and I think it's time that you come forward and allow the family to to be able to put some closure behind them and and not have to wonder all the time who who took the life of their sister I I know you have some children as well and I'm sure that is something something happened to you your children or to your parents in the past I don't think since past but would want to know who's responsible for that for that and why and whether it was the drugs or the alcohol all the time at least they have an answer okay it's like what Ben was saying when we first got in here he didn't see a ring but he got up and he knew that it did with this case it's not that we don't know who did it we we know that who or why where when but at some point we've got to go back to the family you've already been through the court process once I'm sure you had to stand up and you had to give your apology to the family in the last case but in this case would it be a lot better for us to be able to go to the family and say you know what he he stood up told us everything otherwise you're going to have to do that in court but it would be so much better if we can go to them and say you know what this guy's a stand-up guy this guy isn't the same guy he was clear back in 1989 and it's going to go a lot better for you that way well no ask I I don't want you to do a job I know this is a lot to take in right now I I agree I think you should have a donut it is a lot to take in right now Carrie I'm still trying to understand well I mean everything torture we're done with my friends how many people ever killed historical Clark excuse me as long as you're gonna ask me that question yeah what's up yeah I never perform in fact in fact major officer this officer her escorted me over here it is so far too all right that's right this prayer store the software radio [Music] well now that you heard of that he goes no I haven't heard it's just coming that way it comes on you know and I and I don't have to just I've had some moments of prison whereabouts I've had to break out the old guy because everybody sure yeah but to be in the Man in Christ who runs your snacks things I don't know I mean those things I need I gotta do and if I did this I'd go nowhere I just said that right well what was it you said that you said that was right out this way I don't understand how to come well so the difference in your neighbors are so We're not gonna lie to you about that stuff Jerry that's I don't know that's um effects as much as we might want it change facts we can't and things that I did 20 30 years ago I can't change that Hilfiger is struggling to accept the reality of a situation he believed he had already confronted all of his crimes and he is now having to come to terms with the fact that he killed another person whether they were good things or bad things and and I think I think Jerry you're struggling with the new Gary versus the old Gary because the and same does that you know that Satan tries to bring up the past we're not Satan but we're bringing you facts that haven't and and I don't I don't think that um I don't think you're going to get away with telling us that you don't remember that part of it because I just don't think people don't remember that part and and we can show you some pictures to try to jog your memory about some of the stuff and things like that more than willing to do that otherwise okay well I and I'm not I'm not trying to to gross you out or anything like that but we can't change those facts Gary it's like it's like Ben was talking about earlier what do you want what I want what I want Gary is I just want you to tell me why I remember you know can you tell me how it how it began can you tell me about it yeah I don't remember I mean as I said there's things that came up in my mind things I've heard names and triggers and there's little trigger things that may be stolen really what do you remember about Flora as I said after that after you explain where the house was and stuff like this I started thinking about the address and I've been at this house and I'm still trying to picture what's around this house but uh like I said my customers it's your contacts and jobs to play every day no no no once a week I don't know Defender don't open doctors appointments or whatever she needed to go through stores and or something are you kind of a regular for her and no they would just send whoever's available at the time I work at the airport I worked off the airport I mean I totally Union hours okay so that I didn't let her a lot but so once in a while dispatcher might say I need a cannabis sauce only you can always be about my Peter and then to be like hey man swing back we've probably picked that up I think that's great memories I see I didn't pick her up often or every time she went so for sure but it was just the thing that she was a trusting married people that he knew her well enough because you've taken her a few times anyway to know her that you know to know that it wasn't it wasn't just a one-time thing a couple of times Bill thicker targeted Rundell specifically because he knew her well enough that he thought that there was a reasonable chance he could get away with robbing her [Music] what else do you remember about fluoride gotcha really about how old was she how was that okay too I was 33 I would have thought maybe she was 65 or something what was going on in your life at that time then everything wrong I don't know what that means I wasn't aware of something I learned in prison good personality trade I mean disorder you know how some people can go out and drink literally some people and not good and I had friends out there that that abuse that abuse propane and they have so you've never gotten in trouble except for the possession of your probing foreign Traveler I was I always despite out of control the last up the last I mean three years I spent out there the last two are already really bad so what do you mean really bad what I had a boss a six-year relationship because it drives my health first job the broken romantic relationship that Hilfiger spoke of was the Catalyst for the murder of his friend Haverty he had fallen into a depression after the breakup and Haverty confronted him about what his addiction cost him the two fought and he ended up stabbing her 10 times before dousing her in kerosene and setting her own fire [Music] 5pm we're still working then yeah cause of functioning he is able to do it then how long did you work at you then was that some cheers did you work at another cab company prior to that or did you always work for you no I drove for I mean Yellow Cab bring up so you cab is that uh so there's a lot of things going on during that time again drugs alcohol that you were able to function you just was like afterwards then is when you I mean you'd be able to function during that stay away from that during your shift and then get back on it right after I go to work that makes somebody because in fact it wasn't I wasn't stealing Robert earlier or something work and as soon as I made I've made enough with an apartment so I've been grow up right and then get what you needed and then back from the next day it should work days time day shift then usually until I I figured I made it enough so you can kind of pick your shifts then will they let you work like 12 hour shifts at a time if you wanted to or would they limit that I was working at one time I was working working between 13 to 15 wow I work a day to go home sleep and get up and go play for a day okay so it's kind of is it you kind of your your own business type of thing is that how that works so did you have your own Captain too yeah I drove for somebody who owns several players okay and you got to pay demos of that portion or something yeah still able to work out okay as far as hating them and still supporting yourself so during that time you said you had a breakup was that with a girlfriend or a is that the one that you had children with no no okay I don't remember that I have children for my wife and it's just a sense oh I should have known I've got I've got grandchildren now wow how many grandchildren do you have four four four things I'm aware of and how many children do you have I got three from My Wife and one and one they went from a woman Super Girl okay and I that I noticed I mean obviously I I wanted to look in a little bit to kind of what was going on with you uh here before I came to talk to you I know with the investigator is asking questions to which he already has the answers part of this is to build a connection with Hilfiger and it will also help him to determine when Hilfiger is lying or withholding information she's out did that ever get resolved okay Garcia I can give you guys what's up I know where it is yeah you got it you got um you've got some anger towards him I can see that I don't blame you I would Cruise like this my drink outside please look like more of a man to another would be because I had a bad night and I dreamed that this kid caught me as I promote from here before we get inside me and somebody goes how do you feel about that somebody killed this might kill my mom hearts of course you got my dad my kid you know man that's what's gonna come with me last time I went to the boards and delivered his wife had written it before I went through board I hadn't heard from this group again my victim's son was a kid I remember this happened his wife just wanted to know why why so yeah but they were back from them once you cross that aspective what happened just interesting we didn't close your hand whenever I went through board the last time we always been a victim statement there comes another important packets and it and it was just we're putting this fault behind us wherever the board system along that line that you didn't have any in your last week Haverty's son has decided he is not going to try to block hilfiger's parole often the family of the victim understandably tries to ensure that the person who murdered their loved one is never freed okay but whenever you promote and that's the time I was also talking to myself and I and I have friends who work nutritions let's say that I wanted to know what what this guy was foreign my son at the time he Collide away these aren't obviously been so stupid obviously he listened to somebody then huh what do you have about your other children do you see him or hear from him no no contact at all Max wife whenever she passed away somebody stood Amanda cigarette my kids swear swear that they were able to come out here this year are there were other other contact wife you know I regret those same problem with every Tuesday yeah yeah that you never know just like you talked about that young man changing your victim the sun changing children could change too yeah because like you said that's uh that's a lot for him to come to the board with him and his wife and basically a word come up with your boyfriend are you wrote a letter still pretty good for to send a letter and say whatever the board sees fit or satisfied with I mean there's not many people out there that would do that sounds like to me maybe he's forgiven you know it kind of sounds like by what you did your changes you've made in your life between that it sounds like you and good morning well one thing I'm going to ask Gary is this and that is obviously the next step is to go meet with the District Attorney's office and one of the questions they will ask me is did you talk to Gary and of course I'll say yeah they're going to ask me you know is Gary cooperating with us in this and I want to be able to don yes that's the next step I want to be able to say yeah Gary the responsibility and and explain what's going on I would much rather do that than go to them and say listen I beg Gary to talk to me and and Gary just said he didn't remember anything about it and I would much rather be able to go tell him the truth and and I understand that like in your mind you're probably thinking well either way I'm here but it's kind of maybe how you spend your time too and you think about that I mean you made some changes in your life you're a different person than you heard 30 years ago I know during that time that the First with the first case that he had I know that was tough for you at that time it took you a lot of years to come forward but you know wouldn't it be nice for people to actually see a change in usage you have found Jesus Christ and that you have changed your life around to actually prove it to him and by proving it showing the same listening the old Gary was the one that didn't remember anything that the new Gary is taking responsibility and I I'm like Todd said I mean the investigator uses hilfiger's Faith to induce guilt while his history shows that a lack of memory is plausible it is an excuse that is so often used it cannot be believed outright going back to that old Gary here because you're wanting to not remember I'm wanting to try to block things out versus the new Gary who's a stand-up person and the new carry is somebody that probably tells people who you are housed with you have to take responsibility for what you've done that's the new Gary but I understand I mean things are not again I'm sure this is the case that's way on your mind for a long time and that I want to be able to go tell them Gary that you know what this is the new Gary that I talked to today this is a guy that's changed this isn't the guy that I've read about in the old case that happened back in 92 this is the this is a change Gary this is a different person that we're talking about here that's what I want to be able to tell them that all that stuff as far as your involvement with the pastor out here at the prison you're involved in with the sunrise and the open door I want to be able to tell it listen that has made a difference from Gary that has changed him because he's not the same person as and he's not giving us the same story as he did in its Salt Lake City case back in 92 he's a different person and here's why that's what I want to tell him oh I did something here it's not whenever I see this thing about these things there's no understand why there's a lot of things I've done it I think we can all say that I think we can all say that we've done some things that we're not proud of myself included but like Todd said I can't change who I've been in the past but what I can do is in the future is I can show that I changed and how I show is by what I say and how I act I can't be the same person I was 20 or 30 years ago either I have to be different I have to prove that I'm Different to people so people can see that in me even though they may know some of the mistakes that I've made I think by the way I carry myself in the way I interact with people and being up front and taking responsibility for things I hope people see and look at the past and go that was his past that he's a different person today because back then he didn't maybe come clean on everything but today he does he's willing to take criticism he's willing to take responsibility for mistakes he's made and continues to make I continue to make mistakes and to this day I take responsibility here and I know it's tough I don't like getting criticized I don't like getting pointed out when I made interest I've changed and I feel like I've changed and I'm trying to try and do better where do you want from here I want you to tell me the story of what happened before trying to understand I think you know bits and pieces up even if you may not remember every detail Gary I do think you remember some of the stories and that's what I and that's what I want I want you to tell me everything you remember that's what I like because I want to take that to them I want them to see that you're a changed person that's what I want to do I wanted not just go up and say well all the church stuff and everything else is just a big facade for Carrie that's just a big show that he's doing because I don't think it is I want to be able to say he is a changed person and you look at the case at 92 and you look at the case and I'm investigating in 89 and you can clearly see that he has changed he has changed his ways he has taken responsibility back in 92 he didn't take responsibility for everything it took a while like you said for you to kind of come to terms with that but I want to show that you have changed not only do I want to show that to the district attorney's office I want to show that to the judge potentially a jury and more importantly a family I want to show a family because they'll know what happened in the past but I want to show that family that you've made some changes and this is why you need changes because the old Gary would have given me the I don't knows I don't remembers and I can prove that to him by what happened in 92. but the 89 case I want to show them that listen this is a changed Personnel he made some mistakes in the past but now he's trying to rectify those and part of rectifying that he knows is being upfront and honest and taking responsibility Bill thicker is standing firmly by his previous claim that he cannot remember the events of 1989. as the Gary I want to show people as the Gary I want to walk out of here today and be able to say that guy is a changed guy Yankees made some mistakes but he's changed his ways and he and he's proven that he's changed his ways because the old Gary would have never talked to us about anything that changed carry has taken responsibility Gary there's things that we know happen because of the physical evidence some things that we don't know between the three of us here I think we could probably change the whole picture but but we can't start that process you you have to do this to do something okay the congressman is [Music] not at home a two weeks you're pregnant even though they're not on the east side of Salt Lake so many people don't have stuff well I mean I'm just saying the residential area I understand you're saying but I mean there maybe there was a conversation between you and her and that led you to believe that maybe she did have something even if Rondell did not have much money Hilfiger may not have been in a state to think that through logically he may not have been able to wait until payday or he might have needed extra at the time trying to remember the whole thing and I mean like you said I'm still looking at this house and it doesn't recruitment if we if we if we don't show you pictures of her but we show you some other thing that might help all right SNR why else would my DNA be there like what you said but then I was there I think I haven't been through this and I broke into Steel Center and during that time you indicated earlier you were involved in drugs and alcohol so what what maybe would you have stolen then do you think Roberts Robert for what though do you think she used drugs yeah I wouldn't have a foot with that right and you're kind of indicating that maybe maybe he robbed her for something and and I'm just trying to kind of figure out what you think of anything else well maybe you guys had a conversation I mean obviously when you're taking her to reins or to the doctor there's got to be some type of conversation going on and I know I've read new taxi guys without the best when it comes to talking to people you can break the ice bear with anybody I know so I think when you're talking to one another you're probably discussing things and maybe shake that on to let you believe that she had something that you may have had interest in and during that time in your life things weren't going well for you it sounds like you're working hard to try to get to your next fix was there a discussion maybe you two had about accidents she had I know it's great I know 30 25. yeah that's something theory that you think that you know neither Ben or I said anything about breaking into the house we know that the house is broken in bed nobody said that that it was broken into so um you would know that brought up being broken into how did you break in I mean why else would I be there my DNA was there yeah but houses houses people go into houses all the time to take things doesn't mean that they broke something to get in well I mean put it into a house whenever your bird was the house you break into a house not always especially if somebody's home well you can knock on the door to work perfect yeah obviously are broken to someone's home you did you did how did you do it she goes through a window did you go through the door do something with the the utilities that did you do anything like cut a phone line or anything like that what did you do to get into that house Gary again would it help to see some of the pictures without showing her I don't I don't want to show you her but would it help to see some of the pictures that you said I remember when I was a little primary years ago even before I introduced I used to do stuff like that I'm glad where'd you set out about credit from my answer we've tried to utilize I used to go slip off flip off the power took her into certain places so we need to talk about this our president of Jerry we need to talk about this instead of what you were doing before I mean like Ben said before um I guess I mean you said it was there obviously the case for me it's there was something in my brain that makes me it causes triggers that's why I'm wondering if scenes seeing some of these pictures may help you remember something else I do not Gary I do not want to put anything in your about this I don't want to feed you information about things that happened because that doesn't do you any good and doesn't do me any good so we need to talk about what happened but it has to come from you like like Ben said it's not a matter of if you did it or didn't do it we know that you did it it's a matter of you telling us how you did it so it matches up with the evidence does that make sense to you that way Ben can go to the judge and he can go to the family and say and Kerry told us the truth and you may not know RPG tell Kerry I understand that and we're not here expecting that you can tell us from A to Z but I do believe that you could probably tell us maybe I at J and L and N there's something about it I remember little things that jumped up at me and like what well when I first heard about this seven months back something triggered in my head what triggered the man and what did it remind you of did it remind you of something that you have done it was just like a recovery like I said I've had dreams about things and maybe I did do this I don't know what I would say to everyone discuss that did you have a dream about Flora just weird stuff you tell me about those dreams I mean it's not I'm there but I'm out there sort of thing right and it's just what were you doing when you were there I don't know hilfiger's memory is fragmented according to him there are things that have triggered some small memories but nothing to give him a larger picture of what happened the difficult part is that showing him anything might implant false memories or prompt him to admit to things that aren't true doing so could damage the case you want me to be I mean I mean because I talked to an attorney I'll be glad to make them help s to make it wet comfortably because I can't I mean you need to understand we're not here to just wipe this case off of our books that's the SE are human human beings so we I'm going to stay in prison now until I die anyway I don't know that I I don't I do it I do not know that and I don't know that you know that because again Gary this is 1989. 1989. that's a long time ago and that was before that first one if let's remind me to write something to the family after you learn to write something to the family do you be willing to talk to them at the source Department even if you want me to just just I'm sorry I thought misunderstood well like I said Gary you earlier is uh obviously I've done it and I don't know why I would do it other than to you it's important right then to Summers up the road I must have got the impression that she has let you know that's the way her head's open because I was sitting here trying to figure this out [Music] so when you got inside what happened the chief I chip was there a fight between the two of you or did you just ask her for you mentioned you just mentioned somebody did you ask her for some money just ask her to give me some money I mean yeah obviously you've had newer and had taken her back and forth maybe you just picked her up from Reeves and brought her back and asked her for as you brought up maybe ask her for some money did you do that how did she tell you now I mean obviously there's a struggle tell me about that did she tell you no when you ask for money how did the struggle start I thought because you said there was so there was I mean that there were fingernails but uh there's not a lot of rooms in that house Carrie what room did the struggle take place in I don't know whatever the fact that the background obviously it happened when you thought about this then you say you've had some dreams about it what are the dreams what are the dreams telling you that have you obviously before we ever showed up felt like you had done this with the name just it was weird because of what you said too about the yeah absolutely and I did forget this house and there is a small house it's probably about what I mean three rooms Maybe I made a bit before and I don't even know total rude to me probably I think there's four or three hundreds houses yeah the dreams Hilfiger experienced may contain some of the details although it is also possible that his mind has filled in some of the blanks with events from Haverty's murder they were just it'd be like what kind of thing would you see and you know whenever that we talked about this one okay I want this she showed me something else you know not if I did this and here we are and I was gonna say it's kind of like kind of like on your way over here from the prison and you just asking the guard about that the song all of a sudden the song that was on the radio I don't know it seems to me I mean I I'm a Believer as well and it seems to me that that you've kind of had some signs coming your way you'd ask you've asked the word if you yeah you asked about it and here we are and you're asking him about the song and here's something else I mean it's a coincidence I don't know or is it something higher than that I tend to believe it's higher than that but that's that's my belief as well the third thing I can say that happened would be it was a struggle because I went there to Robert I guess and I said I guess because I can't really remembered you know purposely one of them I mean did you cut the utility lines did you go in the front door back door when this house is up with I'd say probably went into the front door my why would you say that because it's in it's in a commercial area and by by and by them figure out this picture I don't know if there's anything on either side you'd be one look at some of these other pictures and see if the judge remember something I won't show you pictures of troops what are these drinks you're more than welcome because I'm gonna have one hey that stuff the stuff you've been seeing in your dreams Zach I think maybe significance of it you talked about maybe the lines looks like there might be some utility lines there would you have used a typical weapon yeah like what all right because well what other crap I worked around everything I carried I try to get it for it okay bar is that the name brand of the knife or something okay [Music] there's just some pictures of the outside of the house the investigators have come prepared with pictures of The house's interior and exterior Hill thicker looks them over for anything familiar foreign [Music] [Music] let me ask you this would you have done this during the day or night [Music] anything can now Gary after those one of those pictures so uh does it look familiar it does you remember what time at night it was dark outside or would have been dark yeah where was that at 1989 I think you were still driving for you weren't you did you take the cab home with you at night so you had is that what you'd use to drive around in even you may not Duty well depends if I was out if I went out and found me to wrote the party I would little drive then after made a car from you as well not okay I'm sorry so sorry I was just going to say so something like where maybe you've gone over her residence which uses part your cap down the street or something or would you have rented a car for all right I'm sorry I understand so we already went to a residence you know you said it was nine time or I believe when you went to her house if you went to her house at night do you think you would have taken the taxi or do you think you might have taken a rental car well it depends on what the night was where I was at okay I would like me there wouldn't have been a taxi driver during that time do you remember the days you were working or days you take off and would you generally work the weekends or which are harder to work with so you didn't work with kids so you take what Friday Saturday off or Saturday Sunday I used to work this work I mean I really did and incentives I just worth anything okay so you take usually Saturday off and then you have Sunday off right do you think as far as when this would have happened videos would have happened on your days off yeah so on a Saturday or a Sunday I'm glad you said it happened man well we got the call on Sunday afternoon So based on what you're telling me my I'm just speculating please correct me if I'm wrong you're telling me if you have Saturday and Sunday off and you would have done this on a nightmare working that my kids don't think that would be Saturday night is Wednesday when this would probably occur is that fair to say yes and on that Saturday night would you have had the taxi where you'd park it down the street or the parking lot against a commercial area as you know or would you have gone to the trouble to rent a car said sometimes I've learned of course sometimes let's just kind of depend on what you have going on for the weekend you don't remember on this hillficker had no set habit when it came to the car he drove so unless there was a witness it would be impossible to say which he drove that night and the knife you're talking about how how big was the blade like a four incher if it was a pretty good you know like it was a good size good size knife was it a folding knife or for the night it was okay some of those K bars you have with sheets you know that are right without a drink this was a great one that filmed it okay not a you're kind of motioning about a four inch belay is that sounds four to six inch blade okay what color was it was the handle and stuff on is it black or a brown let me see what a light with like the bone there okay yeah it's kind of a good looking knife then and the area I do appreciate what you've provided I really do the question I have now however however in her house which you get in which you get that awake or asleep all right once you wake up then she heard you come in and she obviously recognized you from taking her places right okay to get out of the house or ask what you were doing there if you have something covering yourself up a little bit maybe a hat or something on Hilfiger isn't confessing so much as he is agreeing that their suggestions could be correct just maybe because you've been sleeping kind of being groggy and stuff not so she didn't say your name or anything and she asked what you were doing not remember when when you got inside there and she confronted you what was she wearing I don't remember you don't remember did she have clothes on or was she staying there did you ask her for something it sounds like you were looking to get something did you ask her for anything that you could remember I mean yeah obviously broken for something so did you ask her about something for some money and it should tell you where somebody was at no you don't remember I mean obviously there's a struggle a fight how much money did you get 1200 where was it you know person we're at it first [Music] do what remember there was a little wallet thing there was their wallet either Hilfiger is starting to remember details or telling the investigators what he thinks they want to hear he believes he was there because of the DNA evidence and they aren't going to be happy until he confesses and how much was in there imagine how it drives their whole life so is the money in the billfold thing itself then or was it somewhere else inside the purse because any other money that you're located in the house it's a couple hundred dollars what's wrong there was an engine there how did you how did you know that she would have had some money there did she ever talk about that what did she say s it's something something percent what did you do with the money I probably bought some more products probably bought more trucks so what happened after you got the money out of the billfold oh right you left did anything happen between did something happen between you and Flora before you took the money then no so how does she die there the characters doesn't matter against everything was that before or after you took the money they probably presenter another indication that Hilfiger is probably just making this up as he goes along is the way he keeps using the word probably he's slowly picking up what would be most likely in the scenario and hoping that will be enough for them this only works unless there is information to contradict any point of his story stab here after you took the money or before I'm sorry just on understanding just trying to follow you so you get inside the house she's probably in bed gets up confrontia you take the money and then she gets stabbed or you stab first and then you take the money flavorless actor now Fusion to my new stagger did she say something to you during that time obvious obviously she was upset how can I use you at that point did she ever call you by your first name did she know you by your first name were you afraid she may have recognized you is that why you stabbed her yeah because you thought she may have recognized you for taking her places and would have would have told on you did you take anything else out of the house have you told anybody about this before Gary whatever happened to the knife you don't know I think it's right before eternity right before doing this homicide and where I know I know you said you didn't remember I just wanted to ask you again though just to see if I when when Flora got up out of bed and confronted you where were you standing at that time do you remember in the house part of the house where it would be we could stand again by the front door and prior to that had you ever had as you already cut cut the utilities like before you went in there's prepared that get out of the phone and call so you're in the living room how long are you I mean are you able to start looking through things before she confronts you or do you think she hears you right when you come in [Music] as soon as you came in the front door and do you remember I mean did she when she sees you I mean what's you say anything to her like go back to your bedroom or is there any kind of a conversation going on between the two of you I told her not that I went somewhere tell her you wanted some money and what did she say do you remember anything she said throughout the course of this to get out here do you think maybe when she said what are you doing do you think that may be kind of made you start thinking maybe she knows who I am it's possible and when you're standing in the living room and she comes out and approaches you um remember do you remember what she had on was she clothed or was she or was she just bare naked the investigator is trying to get Hilfiger to reveal details that only the killer or someone with access to the crime scene would know you're wearing something and after you got I'm sorry go ahead all right well you recalled us you probably had something on just don't know what so then after you had took the money you indicated that that's when you stabbed her is that correct and then how many times do you think you stabbed her more than once foreign anything would you ever move that from her you would have taken any of her clothing off and you know where this Fabian hernanity were when you guys got in the confrontation and you start began stabbing her where was this at if he was in the living room still or bedroom or what part of the house do you remember that being on your front room that's where it started it was in the front row where did it end I don't know when it ended I mean so you stabbed her the first time he said maybe more than one so you established the first time I mean obviously there's something going on after you first after the first time it was there obviously she fighting back or was she screaming at you to get out or and we said there's a Scrabble action eating the struggle would have gone throughout the house or just in the living room I'm not sure what you're saying I mean do you think was it all I apologize was it all confined to the living room area where you guys were fighting her well where was her purse at the front room in the front room was it on the floor on the sofa or where would it have been in the front room remember a chair there yeah okay was it on the chair yeah I'll say I'm like on the seat of the chair what color was her purse purse I don't remember there's our black a black what color was the billfold it didn't I just take the billfold to or you just take that yeah you did was there any medications in her purse um this level of detail would be almost impossible to recall after 25 years no one would remember the exact contents of their own bag from that long ago much less one that belonged to someone else did you find any more money anywhere else in the house you didn't find any more money that was the only money was in the purse in the billfold when you left did you leave through the front door or did you leave through the back door what's your number out the front door and after you had left did you see anything about this and this that I don't really watched did you ever hear about that did you ever hear that this had happened though to her to Florida anybody work talk about it no apparently a thousand drivers are not really six other people as far as to talk to each other from each other so I know you said it would have been dark when you went when you went in there you think it would have been before midnight or after midnight I'm probably right right around midnight how long do you think you were inside the house from the time you got there indicated um cut the utility to the time actually had left how long do you think that was in duration in half hour 45 minutes 10 minutes you're remembering something I can tell what is it that you remember I'm doing that's very expressive I see that right up until you remember and all of this as we talk about it because right now you're so do you remember everything about this now you need a garbage can no if you want to have a Sprite just right yeah take a drink can's fine for a long time seeing that this is probably the most they will be able to get out of him the investigators ease up on Hilfiger and bring the interview to a close for now they're hardly making them anymore most of us going to come in plastic yeah [Music] do you want a donut Gary would that help your temperature I I understand that I do I know Ben's got a lot more questions for you you guys want me to help you with something stand up with you guys I want you guys been in 10 hours Gary Hilfiger was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of Flora Rundell in addition to his previous sentence Hilfiger has asked to be granted parole but it is yet to come up for review thank you for watching check out my patreon link in the description below and drop a like on this video also don't forget to leave a comment I'm always curious to read what you thought of the case