Announcer: Welcome to Talking Beat, the podcast for the Portland Police Bureau. We're focusing on thoughtful conversations that we hope will inform and provide you with a small glimpse of the work performed by Portland police officers, as well as issues affecting public safety in our city. Announcer: Here's what's on today's show. Underneath all of this, we talk a lot about agencies, institutions, this type of uniform, that type of uniform, but underneath all that is people, people are getting mortars rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at them. And on the other side of the fence they're people, even the ones engaged in violent activity, they're people, they're community members. So I think it's important that we all collectively remember who's out there and kind of what's at stake. Lt. Jones: So first we want to just start out. We started the morning with PBB and Multnomah County Sheriff's office personnel clearing with Lonsdale and Chapman parks. What was the goal behind this? Chief Lovell: The goal was really to clear the park so we can begin some much needed repairs and renovation and do some cleaning. We had closed the parks previously. We tried to erect some fencing in order to keep people out. The fencing didn't prove very effective, but there was some much needed work that needed to take place in the park. And we needed to make sure our parks employees and our city employees who are going to be doing that work, we're able to do it safely. So we wanted to make sure we cleared it to create a safe environment for them to do their work. Lt. Jones: And we did recover several weapons and concerning items from the park, so, those are posted on our Twitter account as well at Berlin police. So PW has been criticized from any number of directions, but most recently, one of the criticisms is that we have not done enough in the last two months to quell the violence. What is your response to that? Chief Lovell: Well, it's been a long two months. We've had people working hard every night for the last two months. We've made over 400 arrests during this time period, we've undertaken a lot of different strategies to help kind of deescalate the situation. We've employed, demonstration liaison officers, we've utilized our sound truck, we've erected fencing around buildings in different areas downtown, we've removed that fencing. We've tried to secure our buildings in a manner that would create an opportunity for us not to be outside, to respond and be visible. We've done a lot of different things over the last two months to try to manage these crowd control events successfully. So I think it's tough to say that we haven't done anything or enough. We've done a lot, but it's important for people to know that we're still to this day trying different strategies and techniques and partnerships in order to be able to manage these events safely. Lt. Jones: What do you say to the nonviolent demonstrators who were in the crowds? Chief Lovell: Sure. To me, I think the most important thing is for them to know that we hear them. There are people who show up every night and they want to have their voice heard. And we appreciate people's ability to exercise their first amendment rights. Not everyone out there has engaged in violent or tumultuous or criminal activity. So we want to always be mindful of that and those voices of voices that need to be heard. I think the important thing is when a violent or criminal activity begins and we begin giving announcements and telling people, they need to clear an area it's for people's safety. And we really want the people who are there to just have their voices heard to remove themselves from the situation where the violent criminal activity is taking place. Cause we really don't want them caught up in a situation where they're affected by some technique we undertake in order to disperse a crowd. Lt. Jones: How does the city council's resolution to not work with federal officers impact our operations? Chief Lovell: it makes it more difficult. I mean, we are trying to manage some fluid, rapidly changing, sometimes violent situations on a very rapid basis. And right next to us, we have another team of folks who are trying to do the same thing and we can't communicate with one another to know what's about to happen. Are they going to come out and push a crowd? Are they going to deploy munitions? Right when I'm sending my people out into an area, I mean, it creates a potentially dangerous situation. And we always want to avoid situations where we have officers who were in danger and, and for people who are in the crowd to not know if we're going to be able to go out and push a crowd safely in a direction, it creates an unsafe situation for the crowd also. So to me, I think it's something that we've tried to work through, it's been difficult at times, but, we adhere to the council's decision. Lt. Jones: And OSP is sending some additional partner troops here to work with us. What can you tell us about that? Chief Lovell: I'm very happy. I'm very hopeful about that. I've had some discussions with superintendent Hampton at OSP, and we've trained and worked with Oregon State Police in crowd control events extensively throughout the years they've helped us during these most recent events too. So we have a good, long standing partnership with them. I'm very hopeful that we can work together, communicate, and we'll be able to jointly along help from Multnomah County Sheriff's office really be successful in managing these events much better than they have been in the last few weeks or couple months. Lt. Jones: So over the weekend, some of the spouses of police officers ran a paid ad describing the effect of these protests on officers and their families. What do you have to say to them? Chief Lovell: Yeah, first of all, I thank them for being willing to let their voices be heard. It is difficult to know that the work we're doing and the conditions were working under the last two months have had such a negative effect on families. You go out and you deal with what are sometimes hostile crowds all night, and then you come home and it's important for us to remember that there are other people involved in this there's family members, there's children, wives, husbands, parents, and it has an effect. And it's hurtful to see your loved one subject to danger and potential of being hurt. So I think it's important that we remember that and focus on that. I'm very thankful that they were willing to give that perspective on kind of what's been going on here. And I think it's also important to remember that, you know, underneath all of this, we talk a lot about agencies, institutions, this type of uniform, that type of uniform, but underneath all that is people, people are getting mortars rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at them. And on the other side of the fence they're people, even the ones engaged in violent activity, they're people, they're community members. So I think it's important that we all collectively remember who's out there and kind of what's at stake. Lt. Jones: Do you think the black lives matter movement has been hijacked? Chief Lovell: I've heard that question a few times. I do, to some degree, I agree with what Pastor E.D Mondaine has said on that topic. Early on, we had thousands of people who would gather they would march into the downtown area or different places throughout the city. And they would really spread a message of police reform, racial injustice, that things we need to do to combat racism and more of a global sense to not just focusing on the police. So though I think police were, was part of their focus, but there's, there's a whole system and there's a whole kind of big machine of inequity that kind of operates everywhere that I think really needs to be spoken about. And I think anytime you have violence or what has become kind of a politicized situation, it kind of shifts the focus away from that important message and the important kind of work that needs to be done in a lot of places and a lot of institutions. So I think to some degree, yes, but I'm hopeful that we'll get back to the real message of police reform, racial justice, things that create better outcomes for people, especially people of color. Lt. Jones: So behind the scenes, what is being done or what has been done? I know that there's been such a focus on the events outside, but specific to some of the action items, what's happening? Chief Lovell: Sure. Well, we've been having a lot of meetings, a lot of discussions with folks. I was at a meeting till about 9:30 last night with some faith leaders, community members, police officials, talking about reforms, putting together some ideas to build a list of reforms. I think to some degree as a police agency, we want to bring reforms ourselves. We don't want to wait for people to say, Hey, you need these reforms. We want to look at our internal processes and things of that nature and say, Hey, these are ways we can improve, but we want to balance that also with listening to community, figuring out what people want to see from our organization and from our police Bureau and incorporating those as well. But I think it's also important for people to know that we've been doing this type of work for the last seven, eight years as part of our department of justice settlement agreement too. So this work is, it will continue here, but I think it's important for people to know that we're constantly having conversations. We're looking at ways to reform, we're right now in a position where we have scarce resources. So to figure out what we can do, how to best do it is really the priority. Lt. Jones: So shifting gears a little bit, since May 4th, we've investigated 22 deaths and 15 of those happen in July alone. So we've seen a sharp increase in death investigations and shootings in our city. Chief, can you share with us what he could be is doing to address this concerning trend? Chief Lovell: Sure. That's very concerning. I mean, to know that many people have been killed in such a short period of time, our job, number one, for us is public safety and preservation of life. So we are, we're going to resource some more people to the detective division to help, to help follow up and do some investigation on those. But also we need to focus on doing some proactive work to maybe keep some of these numbers from increasing. We're fortunate to have good partnerships with the office of violence prevention, our partners with probation and parole as well. But that's a very concerning number, in July 1. We lost our gun reduction team and that's forced us into a position where we have to really kind of look at what resources we can bring to bear absent, that structure that we had with the gun violence reduction team. But it's incumbent upon us as public safety professionals and police officers to go out and still do that work. Lt. Jones: Any final thoughts before we shift to media questions? Chief Lovell: Oh, I always have some final thoughts. I'll start with the fact that first and foremost, I'm hopeful that this collaboration with Oregon State Police and Multnomah County Sheriff's office and Portland police will lead us to a better place as far as quelling some of the nightly violence and making a safer environment, not only for officers, but also for people who are coming down to express their first amendment rights. I'm really hopeful of that. And I think it's always important to reiterate, not everyone down there is engaged in criminal violent, bad activity. That's a small subset of a bigger group who's had an interest in speaking out on this topic. So I always want to focus on that and we need to really focus, I think sooner than later on a collective path forward with community, with police officials, with elected leaders and figure out, where are we going to go cause when we're wherever we go, we're going to have to get there all together. Now we've been doing some good work with the DOJ. That's helped us along this path, but there's more work to do so I'm hopeful on that front as well. Lt. Jones: Well, I'm going to try to get this turned up and we will take a question if you can limit your question to one question initially, and then if we have time we can add. So is there someone on the line who has a question and we'll try and... Wright: I have a question right [inaudible 00:13:56] Lt. Jones: I missed your name. I'm sorry with K2. Wright: [crosstalk 00:14:00] my question is about [inaudible 00:14:01] pharmacies. IPR proposal goes to the ballot in November. I wonder what the chief's thoughts are on that proposal specifically, and then more generally what his thoughts are on police accountability, and maybe what steps need to be taken in the future first though, commissioners harvest these proposals specifically. Chief Lovell: Sure. Thanks. Wright.I think for me right now, I think there's still a lot of questions on what it would look like, what it would mean. What are the implications as far as bargaining and things of that nature that final product could potentially have some potential. I think right now it's really early in the process to kind of see what that would look like and what impacts it would have. Accountability, I think is very, to me, I look at it like not everyone is going to perform perfectly all the time. I think as an organization, we have to have systems in place that catch the times when people don't perform up to our policies, expectations, and directives, and then have things in place to hold them accountable, correct behavior and make improvements afterwards and I think when you have a structure of accountability, that does those things, you're, you're on a good path. Wright: Thank you Chief. Chief Lovell: Sure. [crosstalk 00:15:26] Kyle: Hi there [inaudible 00:15:26] channel eight, Chief thank you for your time. Miller said that Portland police and OSP have agreed on a unified standard on the use of CS gas. I'm wondering what your understanding of this agreement is. And does it create any challenges besides control? Chief Lovell: Thanks, Kyle, there's always challenges in crowd control. So I'll start with that. We did have some discussion around it and it's, it's really situations where there's threat of serious physical injury or death. We really do not want to be using these munitions on community members. That is the truth. I mean, absent better options that are effective. It's a tool we have that can disperse a large crowd. And that's when criminal activity, life safety threats are taken place. So we do have a great working relationship with Oregon State Police. We've worked with them real life, crowd control issues, extensively. We've trained with them over the past several years I think and I'm very hopeful that together we can, we can do what we need to do on the crowd control front without use of these tools. Maxine: This is Maxine bursting from the Oregonian. Thanks Chief. [crosstalk 00:16:59] can you tell us a little bit more about what people can expect tonight is this transition to local and state police occurred and whether who will be in command, who will be calling the shots? Not, not necessarily the shots, but that police are taking and who will be out front of the federal courthouse, et cetera. Chief Lovell: Yeah, that's a great question. I've been in contact with superintendent Hampton, OSP and PPB will work jointly. OSP will have contact with the federal officers who are here. They will coordinate the efforts at the federal courthouse and PPB and OSP will be outside and in a joint manner to respond if needed to any crowd control actions that deem it necessary. But we'll be in close contact with OSP. They'll have the lead at the federal courthouse and there'll be the ones who are coordinating the handoff with the federal officiants. Lt. Jones: Next question. Alex: Hey, this is Alex with a important work theory, I in a press conference earlier today, mayor Ted, we either said that in some instances, Portland police officers have responded maybe inappropriate in some ways to protesters in the past two months. I'm curious if you agree. And if there are any instances where you believe PPB officers went too far or used excessive force against protesting crowds. Chief Lovell: Yeah. You know, for me, I think there were some early instances that were called into question, but those, those instances are under review by the auditor's office and independent police review. So for me, I'm always mindful of my role down the road, where I'm potentially someone who has to make decisions on discipline or be a finder of fact in some way. And I think it's difficult to say upfront until those investigations are completed, that officers did something wrong. But to the extent that, that's the case, I suspect that we've been at this for two months straight every night. And I suspect in the end, we're going to find some instances where officers have done some things that might be out of policy or in violation of directive. And when we do we'll deal with that appropriately, whether it's discipline corrective action or what have you. But I think there's a lot of factors that come into play with this too. And I want to make sure I'm real mindful of the due process people have and also the process that's being undertaken as far as the investigations with independent police review. Lt. Jones: Next question. Maxine: A follow up. This is max again from the Oregonian regarding you mentioned the large numbers of shooting this month. Do you know what's driving that? And also who's investigating them? You've mentioned that more resources will be going to the detective division, where are those resources coming from? Chief Lovell: The majority of those resources are coming from the patrol function. When the gun violence reduction team was disbanded, the detectives remained and were transferred to the detective division. So they were still doing the investigative portion. But what was really lost was the followup piece that assisted in the investigation, everything from picking up video to going out, contacting people and things of that nature. So it was decided on our end, we had to do something. These numbers were not acceptable. People were dying. So we had to pull from our already diminished patrol resources to try to bolster detectives. So they had a resource to kind of assist with the followup as well. Nick Budnick: Hi chief, Nick Budnick with the Portland Tribune. Chief Lovell: Hey Nick. Nick Budnick: Hey there, I was hoping you could answer two questions first, a real quick one. What is the current spending on the protest by police Bureau? The last figure I saw was more than $8 million two weeks ago. And then the second question is, can you talk about the difference in perceptions between how you and your offices, you accountability and integrity at the Bureau as compared to what you are hearing from the public? I just sat through the sorry, listened to the hearing yesterday and it just disconnected. It seemed like there was a disconnect. If you could speak to that, what do you think drives that disconnect? Chief Lovell: Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know the latest number. I mean, it is climbing every night, as you can imagine, these are, these nightly events are costing the city, a lot of money. I can work on getting you an updated number. At least maybe Tina can send that to you. Lt. Jones: Okay. [crosstalk 00:22:39] Chief Lovell: And I can speak generally about accountability. I didn't watch the hearing, but I think as police officers, we accept the fact that if we make mistakes, we're going to be held accountable. We have a lot of authority. And with that authority comes accountability. And I think for, from my perspective, if I make a mistake, I expect to be held accountable for it and I can live with that, but I want one, the process to be fair and take place in a timely manner. And I also feel like there, there should be some components or people involved in the process that have some type of context or perspective about the complexities of the work I do as a police officer. And I think that's important too. I think these systems we create to hold people accountable and to kind of enforce ideals they have to be well thought out. They have to be fair, comprehensive. They have to include opportunities for people to be heard and for their situations to be taken into account. So as long as all of those things are in place, I don't, I don't feel like accountability or integrity or that kind of thing in and of itself is really an issue for police officers. I think it's about really the construction of it, the outcomes. And as they say, sometimes that devil's in the details. Lt. Jones: Was there anyone else who didn't get to ask a question yet? Speaker 8: [inaudible 00:24:22] thank you for taking the time out of your day to talk to us, Do you feel like PPB had a good handle on the night of the protest before federal officers arrived to Portland. Chief Lovell: I'm not sure of their exact arrival date, but I know around the 4th of July around that timeframe, we were experiencing crowds that were greatly diminished in size. The violent activity was, was much lower. And I think we'd gotten to a place where we were on, on a good trajectory. And then I feel to some degree, the arrival of the federal presence became an escalating factor and that increased the crowd size that increase kind of the fervor and the violent activity. And, we were prior to that, kind of under-resourced in many ways we still have calls for service to answer. Our nighttime presence is fairly limited for a city of this size. So in order to still meet our obligations on the patrol side and also dedicate some pretty substantial resources to crowd control was really difficult, but I'm hopeful that this new approach and our partnership with OSP and Multnomah County gets us back kind of on the trajectory we were prior to the 4th of July, Lt. Jones: There was one more person. I think he was talking we'll take that as the last question. Lt. Jones: Hi, who is this? Speaker 9: I'm just trying to get, how's it going? Thanks for taking the time. I'm trying to get a better understanding, a change in direction that either the mayor or keep giving to PPB. And I guess what I mean is, what will, what can the public expect tonight from PPB if protesters turn up? Like, what, what do you envision that looking like on the ground front from your perspective? Chief Lovell: it's hard. Cause I don't know how many people are going to show up or the energy in the crowd or what the response is going to be to this latest, this latest development with Oregon State Police. So it's hard to say I'm hopeful that the community members see this as a victory in many ways. A lot of people came out to express their displeasure with the presence of folks from the federal government here and engaging in crowd control with the members of our community. So I'm hoping that on many levels, people are happy with this development and kind of from the perspective of what we do, a lot of what we do is pretty reactionary. We have a lot of crowd control events in Portland. Many of them actually don't even require any police presence at all. And many of them require very minimum police interaction too. So it's really, in some ways dependent on the crowd, the activities they engage in their willingness to listen to our instructions and things of that nature. But we're going to definitely come out with a mindset that this is a good thing. We're going to do everything in our power to really deescalate and put these nightly events kind of on a better track, a more safe stance than they have been in the recent past.