You guys think I killed Tom? >> We know that you're involved in this. >> Oh my god. No, I'm not. >> There's nothing that I did that I am in trouble for. No, >> she's lying about that. >> That is insane. You can put your hands up all you want. I don't know anything. >> Meet Matthew Moore and Katie Hiller. Two killers who think they can get away with taking the life of 43-year-old Thomas Wick. But as detectives step up the pressure, >> well, we need to tell you something here. We know what happened and we know that you know what happened. They will slowly begin to uncover the trail of destruction these two have left behind. One that will prove Thomas' murder is not as simple as it seems. >> Remember when you were little and I said, "Katie, always tell the truth." >> I am telling you the truth. >> I don't have anything to tell them. >> I didn't want to go home. On February 27th, 2012, police in Wisconsin walked into a horrific scene that would unravel over a decade of lies, criminal activity, and turmoil. In the basement of a quaint family home, they discovered the body of 43-year-old Thomas Wick. He had been shot several times, and gang signs were written in Sharpie around the scene of the crime. And while initially you'd think it was a gang murder, Thomas was the last person who would have involvement with any gang, he was a father of two young children and a master electrician who ran his own successful business. He prided himself on helping people less fortunate and wasn't one to drink, party, or do anything aside from work and go fishing with his kids. However, there was someone close to Tom that wasn't far removed from a life of crime. Matthew Moore, a recently released felon who was one of the less fortunate people that Tom decided to help. Matt and his girlfriend Katie, needed a place to stay. So Tom, out of the kindness of his heart, offered them a place to stay at a severely reduced rate. We're talking like $2,000 rent prices here. On top of that, he set them up with a custom payment plan, one where they would only have to pay him a lump sum in February of every year. Police initially talked to Matt about his deal with Tom, believing it could be a motive for murder. And surprisingly, Matt's first interview with police went well, but he didn't think so. Just hours later, he asked police if he could come in to revise his statement, which is rule number one on how to make yourself look suspicious. And it wasn't just a murder that police were suspicious of Matt taking part in because behind closed doors, he was lying to his girlfriend regarding just about everything. Well, six weeks ago, he came up to my work and which is really random, didn't call, just I I was on I went out on break at work to smoke a cigarette and him and another fellow were sitting next to my vehicle. So, he got out and talked to me and he said, >> he just sitting he didn't know you were going to come home. >> Just was sitting next to my car and I asked him, you know, how did he know you weren't sitting here all night? He said he was going to wait till I was done with my shift. >> What time was it roughly? um 11:30 around me. It was Yeah, it was like 6 weeks ago, so I'm kind of big on the time. >> It was after dark. >> Yeah, it was dark. >> And he had another fellow with him, a Latino fellow that sat in the car. And Tom got out and it was just weird that he was sitting there, you know. So I was like, you know, what do you need? You know, usually he calls, but his reasoning for not calling is he wanted to talk manto man. And usually I share a phone with my fiance. So, he didn't want her to know. And I was like, "Oh, what's up? What do you need?" And he said, "He's really sorry to ask me. His business was going really slow." And he was wondering that if in the contract if there's any way that I could give him all of the money that we agreed in the contract, all all of the 5,000 for the four years, which that really threw me off because I don't make, you know, I'm a young guy. Oh no. >> So, and I said, you know, tell me what's going on. You need some help or something? And he said, no, the business wasn't doing too well, and he just needed to pump some in the business and get it going until summer. So, first I said, no. I was like, you know, that's just too much money to come up with. I I had I had that's my life savings. I had cash at home that I've been saving for probably since 12. I had I had roughly 17,200 which I ended up giving to him. So >> you had it at home or in bank or >> at home in cash. >> Why would you keep that kind of cash at home? >> It's just like it was like my safety net. I always just kept it by me. It's just, you know, I don't know. I should have kept it in the bank. But it's so first I said no I can't come up with that kind of money that you know that it was my money that I was saving for my wedding and me and my fiance's wedding a new car and her engagement ring. So like that was like my everything you know so first I said no and then he said he really had no one else to go to and he really needed it. >> Do you know did you tell your fiance what you did? Not at first because she's a little she wouldn't have agreed with it at all whatsoever. And I'm pretty sure that's why he didn't call and ask. >> Did you tell anybody what your >> No, it was just between me and him. >> Now, if you don't follow Matt's story too well there, don't worry because it makes absolutely no sense. Matt was due to give Tom $5,000, their yearly lump sum, in February. But instead, Tom, who was wealthy beyond measure, begged him for $17,000 to help him out of a bind. Firstly, Tom didn't need money. Secondly, he would never ask someone like Matt when he was surrounded by loved ones, business partners, and family. And third, well, Matt was broke. So broke he can't even afford to come up with a good lie. >> What did his passenger say? >> Nothing. I never once spoke to a passenger. I kind of looked at him. He stared at us the whole time. And >> did you ask? Did you have you ever seen him before? >> Never. Just >> as who's this? Who's >> I didn't. I kind of like kind of looked at him. I kept looking at him when we were talking. And every time I did, Tom just kind of like stood in front of him and you know what I mean? Like I've I've never seen the guy. I've that was the only thing about this deal was kind of made me nervous is never seen Tom with anyone but his kids, you know. >> And how would you describe his past? >> Um he was Latino and he had >> Is he Latino or Mexican or I mean what >> I think isn't that the same thing? Oh, >> I just wanted to clarify what you were Hispanic. Yeah. >> I don't want to sound racist. I mean, you can kind of tell Mexican, you know, I kind of am. There's plenty of Mexicans working in cheese factory. So, >> is he and he had I remember two things about him is he had a perfect little goatee. a little drawn off perfectly cleaned like perfect right around here and then he had something right here >> on his right was sitting like this and it was on the right side of the neck. I couldn't make it out. I was trying to remember with Katie and I and I told her I didn't know if it said mother or I don't know what it said but it was in that the reason I remember it was in that old English cursive you ever seen that like it was in that that's what I remember and and I was talking to Katie about it's like Tom with a guy like that just seemed you know he's an upstanding businessman he's always so every time I talk to Tom he's so professional kind of interesting character for him to be with >> a little bit but then you know I thought >> you don't seem nervous or anything >> a little different usually he's so laidback and usually he'll never really like usually he kind of just kind of like when he's talking to you he'll kind of just look around like at the ground and stuff I mean he he was staring right at me the whole time and I mean he was I knew something had to be up cuz he was he's never been so serious and so focused usually he's just like ah you You know, you always see him smile. It's one thing. One time it's just always got a smile. Never smiled once. After I gave it to him, he gave me a hug smile. But at first, I mean, he didn't seem like like, oh, nothing like that. But it just something felt >> something. >> And he made it sound like he was going to use that money to said he wanted to pump it in his business and get a couple jobs going. So, I thought I've worked construction before. I know how it snows in the winter. So, Okay. Um, do you remember anything about what his passenger was wearing? >> No, he had a winter coat on. Um, he was a medium build and he was bigger than Tom cuz Tom's kind of like a little guy a little bit. He's a little guy. He's shorter. Um I you know I I didn't it's not like I went up to him you know >> I just saw him and >> do you have glasses or anything? >> No. The one thing I'll never forget about him is he he had some piercing eyes. I mean that was kind of weird. And he never he just stared at us the whole time cuz his eyes I I recognize him anywhere no matter what. Them eyes were freaky. You may recall that there were gang signs all over the walls of Tom's basement. Those gang signs were for MS-13, a Hispanic gang. And conveniently, Matt has just tried to place a nondescript Hispanic man with Tom at the time he was begging for money. Matt may be good at lying to his girlfriend, as you'll soon see. But his lie here isn't going to hold water with the police, and neither are any of Katie's. >> 17,000. Where did he get that 17,000? Well, he [snorts] had been saving it for a new car for me. You had been saving? >> You didn't know about it? >> No, cuz he didn't buy me a brand new car. Is >> that what I MEAN? >> I WAS MAD WHEN I FOUND OUT. WHAT did you do? >> And when did you find >> Well, he had told me because I kept saying, well, the 5,000 is coming due. And then you finally told me, well, you know, I need to tell you this. And then >> What day did he tell you? >> I don't remember what day. It was [snorts] probably like a month ago. >> A month ago. Mhm. And he told me, >> "Do you remember what what the Sunday morning?" >> It was a Sunday morning at like 5 a.m. >> Okay. Then how did he tell you? I mean, that was a surprise. >> Well, my wife sat down and he's like, "You're going to be so mad at me. You're just going to be so mad at me." And I'm like, "What?" And then he was like, "Okay, well then what happened?" And then he told me and I was pissed. I was like, "Why didn't you tell me about the money? Why didn't you?" Cuz me cuz he's like well cuz him and Tom the whole time they always were like like like man on demand type thing. >> I was going to say >> like Tom didn't want me to be part of the >> when you did this land contract. >> Were you a part was this more of a deal between Matt and Tom? Did you follow up the whole 20 grand? >> Yeah. Yeah. We I knew about all of that >> back in August or whatever you >> that that was talked about at the lawyers. Yeah. Everyone knew about it. But he but Tom wanted just Matt on the land contract because we weren't married. But then Tim said, "Well, if they're going to be living there together, put both their names on it, blah blah." But Tim and or Tom and Matt were always like manto man type whatever. So that's why we thought Tom was in trouble because he was with that Hispanic man at Matt's work and he didn't want me to know because Tom always got frustrated cuz I was like very everything needs to be documented. Everything they see goes to the lawyer just because isn't that how it's supposed to be? >> Well, yeah. And it looks like IT'S ALL DONE HERE. WHAT DID you come up with with 8,000 for the down payment? >> That's 401k. >> Okay. Why would he use the 17,000 then? I mean, to pick up money out of your 401k. >> You're asking the wrong person. I don't know. >> Don't you agree? I mean, when we said you were the financial person, how did it come up in a conversation? She didn't know he told you that. He came home and told me because I kept saying, "Well, let's go get the $5,000 ready because we had it in the bank account." And then he's like, "Well," he kept putting it off and I was like, "What?" And he's like, "Well, I just need to tell you something." And that's how it came up. He came home and told me. So, [snorts] um, so, so he just came home. Then what did you do after that? I just sat there for a minute on the bed cuz I didn't know what to think cuz I was mad because he had the money and didn't tell me. And I was well I was super mad. The only reason I was so mad is that we didn't get a contract for it before the money was given to him because I just like things in writing. >> Mhm. >> Things in writing like MS-13 scribbled all over the walls. But the writing on the wall for Katie at this point should be clear. She's lying. And if she doesn't turn on Matt soon, she's going down with him. >> We started calling the son. We started calling the day or the day before he was on the news. >> Why would you Why would you call him so early in the morning? >> Why not? I was pissed off. I was Because he was always up early. We've talked to him that early. He's called us that early. >> 6:00 in the morning on a Sunday. >> Yeah. That's not weird to me at all. We're out that early. >> All right. Well, we need to tell you something here. Um, >> and you need to be listening very carefully to what I'm telling you. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You're about to make some very serious decisions in your life. All right. >> Yeah. >> And probably more so than you will ever make for the rest of your life. >> We know there's no 17,000. We We know what happened and we know that you know what happened. >> So Tom >> exactly. Now >> I don't know what happened. >> Let me let me explain this to you. All right. Because this isn't like any TV show that you watch this 48 hours and all this baloney. >> I don't know what happened. >> Just hear me out. Okay. >> Um the decisions you're about to make today will affect the rest of your life. >> Okay. >> Okay. So think very carefully before you you answer these questions in a manner that isn't truthful. >> Right? I'm being truthful. I don't know what's going on. >> Well, listen. I'll tell you. >> Okay. >> That whole case file there >> is all this case, >> right? We've dug into all your financial records. We've dug into all of your cell phone records, all of your text messages. We've talked to a lot of friends, a lot of family. >> I figured that you did that. And we know the story that you've you've told so many lies about this situation. You don't even know how we >> told we've told what we've heard from his family, from anyone, from the neighbors. >> No, Katie, I can pull out I can pull out your statements. Um, and you contradicted yourself hundreds of times. >> Not when YOU HAVE >> I ONLY MADE ONE STATEMENT. The the last one statements you tell your friends. I am from the family and the neighbor. The >> neighbor talking I'm talking about I'm talking about the statements that you're making about you. Not about what you heard. It's about what you did. Um how you feel about um where you were, what you and Matt did. All that that's changed hundreds of times. >> All we did was see on the news and go right over there. >> That's all we did. Seriously, >> I don't think you're listening to what I'm telling you here. All right, >> I do. I'm telling the truth. I have nothing to hide. We saw it on the news. We called him, couldn't get the voicemail or we kept getting voicemail. Matt left voicemails, saw it on the news, called my mom and went over there. That is what happened. >> I have nothing else to say. That's what happened, >> Katie. Okay, let me let me explain something to you. Okay. Part of the search that we did was your text messages. Okay. Part of the text messages we got, you made reference to seeing him the day before he was following. >> Yes. And I know that was to that was to my friend Becky at work. And yes, I did say that. And yes, that wasn't true as well. >> Why? >> Because I just started my job. I stayed home the day after we found out because we didn't know what was going on with the house. We didn't know what was going on with Tom. We needed to find someone to talk to. and I just started my job. I wasn't going to lose it. So, yeah, that was untruthful. >> You also made a comment that you were actually in the basement. You went over there when the when the contractor found them. >> That's the same thing to Becky. That was untruthful. I just needed a day off and I didn't want to get fired. I told her that was untruthful afterwards. I talked to her at work. >> When did you talk to her? >> Couple days after that day, I told her that was untruthful. >> And we've talked to her since then and she never mentioned that. She said, "This is what she told me." Okay, but Kate, hold on. Let's just slow this down. >> I know, BUT THAT IS UNTRUTHFUL. >> IT is untrueful 100%. Okay. And it's untruthful about the $17,000. >> Well, that I went back and we subpoenaed the the records. Okay. And >> what? All the bank records. >> Yeah, I know. Matt said Matt said it wasn't in the bank. I don't know anything about >> money was in the bank, but he didn't even have enough. You guys are living day to day check to check. >> We had the money to pay in the 5,000 if you went far enough >> because of the bonus. >> That's how we were paying them. >> I went back. How many years do you think I was? I didn't go back till February. I went back years. >> Okay. You got the bonuses every year. >> And I can show you where you spent the bonuses as fast as you got. >> I know. But we tell them until when Matt said he gave us 17,000. They the bonuses disappear as fast as they go in. >> I am going to go to chase because >> Matt had just recently gotten out of prison for reasons that Katie doesn't fully understand yet. But Matt's family understands just how deceitful he can be. When police spoke to his brother Ryan, he revealed that in the past Matt had paid someone to rob their parents while he took them out to dinner. That way, they'd never suspect him. Unfortunately for Matt, they suspected him right away, just like police did because obviously lying isn't his strong suit, despite the fact that he does it all the time. >> The statement statement that I gave to the detective was the truth. That's exactly what >> it doesn't match. Matt said, >> what did Matt said? >> Matt told me the same thing that he told you that >> we got these times and dates are probably way off. He doesn't know nothing. Well, times are >> well, there's certain things that you don't screw up. I mean, he he described in detail where you were when he told you about the so-called 17,000. >> I was SITTING ON THE BED. >> NO, THAT'S why anywhere. >> Where? >> You were [snorts] sitting on the toilet. >> Oh, yeah. Cuz he said, >> listen, he said, I got to tell you something. Then I went to the bathroom. He told me then I went back to the bed. >> That's convenient. Okay. >> Why? because you changed your story. >> Changes of all you changed. You said that you said the statement you gave to the officers. >> The statement I gave to the officers is exactly what happened because I don't I didn't do anything. THERE'S NOTHING THAT I did that I am in trouble for. >> Well, you're covering you're covering that. Is that true? >> WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? NO, >> BECAUSE >> THAT IS THAT IS INSANE. YOU CAN PUT YOUR HANDS UP ALL YOU WANT. I don't know anything. Well, you're telling us that that he came home before. >> Yeah, cuz it was he didn't even check until after 5. He didn't touch until after 5. So, >> you were at 11:00. >> HE TOLD ME at 6:16 a.m. when we called Tom. >> That's when he told you? >> Yes. >> Okay. Now, before you just told me, he told you at night when you were sitting on a toilet. Which one is that? >> At 6:16 a.m. when I was sitting on a toilet. Oh, he said it was at night before you went to bed. >> No, >> it wasn't. He got home from work and told me that. I'm not covering up for anyone. I don't have anything to hide. >> I think I think you're in a spot. >> I don't have to understand that. >> What kind of spot I'm in? I DON'T KNOW WHAT >> very serious spot. >> WHAT? HE TOLD ME I DON'T KNOW. >> LYING FOR MATT. >> WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT LYING FOR MATT? HE HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING. I I KNOW WHERE HE IS. I know what he's doing. >> Yes, he has. >> How? Where's the proof? We got We got piles of proof. We got We got piles of >> What kind of evidence? Evidence. There's nothing. He didn't do anything. >> Well, just so you know, right now, we're conducting a search at your house. >> That's fine. >> Yeah, they're there. Now, um we're taking your vehicles. >> That's fine. >> Matt's vehicle, your vehicle. Um there went to the crime lab. >> That's fine. >> Um >> can I get a ride back to my house? >> Definitely. >> Okay. Katie's not cracking, but in searching through Matt's online history, police have found plenty of information they can use to turn the two against one another, and they're just scratching the surface here. >> Understand? Did you know that uh also that Matt is contacting some other women, some ex-girlfriends, that type of thing? >> No. >> Okay. >> When? When? How? >> Where's your cell phone? No, he got on his brother's Facebook account and he's contacting other women. I've got >> I want to know cuz now I'm pissed. >> Okay. And I'll I'll show you the emails. All right. Here's here's an email I got from one of his ex-girlfriends. Okay. >> Recently? >> Yeah. I just got >> Yeah. But when he was dating those girls, he was 100% different. He used to do drugs and >> All right. I've been doing this job for 27 years and I'm telling you a secret. Well, then he's covering up to me cuz we're living a very normal everyday life. >> Well, and then you don't obviously know him as well as you think. >> Do you have emails from the Facebook? I want to see those. >> Yeah, it's right here. >> No, from the girl the girls he was emailing with his name signed. >> Yeah. >> Let's see. >> Um, >> can I just read it? >> Well, I'm not I'm not going to let you because it's got her name on it. >> I'm not going to go after I want to know. I want to know who it is. Otherwise, not going to believe me when I say something. >> This is from his brother's Ryan's Facebook account. >> Well, I didn't say anything bad. >> If I knew a house before, >> he bought a house now. We bought a house. My girlfriend and I didn't say anything about girlfriend talks about, "Hey, you want to come over?" Why would you be emailing this chick saying, "Hey, you want to come?" >> I don't know. Cuz that's Yeah. >> Is that what is that what a good boyfriend does? Okay. >> Did he email anyone else? Um, we'll get into that a little bit, but um, I'm just telling that we understand by talking to people. Um, Matt's not a great boyfriend. All right. No matter how much you want to stick up for him and no matter how much you want to say that he is, >> not even sticking up for him. I mean, from how he lived dayto day, he's he's fine. >> I talked to him like three times today. I went home on lunch sitting on the couch. >> So, you're saying he didn't call you fat. He has to call it doesn't tell you that something else. >> Yeah. Years ago he did, but he hasn't in probably 3 4 years. He used to way back in the day. That's when, you know, we both drink a lot, but we don't drink anymore. We haven't in years. >> When Matt is confronted with his infidelity, he takes the exact same approach he'll likely take when Katie asks him about it. Deflecting, lying, and calling the accuser crazy. >> Um, you know, when you look at your finances, there's You had you had too many debts and too much out there. >> I got a lot of debt. No, >> I got a [ __ ] ton of debt. >> So, if you had $17,000, why would you pay it off? >> Because that was my safety net. That was my safety net for my wedding. >> But then you you have no intention of getting married. Katie, give me a break. >> Yes, I do. >> I've been with her for 6 years. >> So, what? >> You guys don't even You guys don't know me. I mean, you don't know our relationship to death. >> Oh, really? Is that why you're trying to hook up with other other ladies? Right. >> I'm not trying to [clears throat] hook up with other ladies. If I wanted to hook up with other ladies, I'd be with another lady right now. >> So, you're not contact any ex-girlfriends or anything? >> No, I I mean, I said I say hi to him or I sent a message to one on Facebook saying, "Hi, I'm doing good. How's your life?" I mean, not like, "Hi, I miss you. I love I'm not trying to get with them." Why contact anybody? >> Why not? Why not? Why not? You guys are happily >> I hang out with Katie every day. >> Happily uh in a relationship with this woman that you love. And so why is there so friends? >> Why is there Why is there a need to contact other women? >> It's if it could have been a guy, why not make friends, >> man? Seriously, >> you guys are crazy. >> No. How many other secrets are you keeping? Does she know when you contact me when you're a girl? No, but if she read if she read the if she read the message, she wouldn't give a [ __ ] >> She wouldn't. >> No, >> she wouldn't care about that message. It's not like I was on there like, "Oh, I miss you. Give me your number. What are you doing? Let's hang out." >> All I had was, "Hey, how you doing? I bought a house." It's on >> I bought a house or my girlfriend and I bought a house. >> I said, "I bought a house." >> I said, "I'm doing good." >> Is that true? >> Well, yeah. >> Oh, really? Well, we bought a house. >> I let her on the with but you allowed her to be on there. >> Yeah, she didn't even want to be at first. >> So, but you allowed her to be Well, that's nice of you. So, you allow her to do things. >> Oh my god, you guys are crazy. Holy [ __ ] I've watched First 48. I've watched some really mean detectives. You guys are ruthless. Matt, that is a is a very good topic. Okay. And >> the last five years have been fine. I mean, there's no violence. There's nothing. >> You talk to your family, too. And they're very concerned about it. >> All right. >> But the last three years, they were fine. That's what they're telling me. >> They're not. >> They like them. They said, >> they are very, very concerned about you. >> Why? >> They because they can see the changes in you since the time that you started going off. All right. Yeah, but I changed. But they they every day my mom says how proud she is of me and Matt for where we've come. >> Well, >> that's what she said to me every day. >> She's proud of you. >> She's very proud of you. >> But she's proud of me and Matt because we both stopped drinking. We both stopped getting in trouble. Everything. >> I understand. But she and we've talked to her like two or three times now. And she says she's probably she's very concerned and very worried about you. Okay. Fine. I haven't been in danger. >> Well, she your family feels you're >> I'll be honest with you. >> When we first when we first started dating >> when we first started dating, we had a we >> No, >> when we first started dating, >> we had a crappy relationship, but that was 5 years ago. Now, I mean, for the last 10 years, I've been fine. >> HOW DO I KNOW? WHAT ARE YOU TELLING ME? YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE? We've been we've been pulling your garbage and we understand that your uh your relationship isn't so so wonderful. Um we know that you don't trust him. We know that um >> Oh, what do you know about Matt's prior history where he got in trouble with >> I know the truth. I talked to his officer. Um he had gotten into a fight with his ex-girlfriend. They got into a physical fight. He was 18, she was 17. Then he went to prison for both. >> Well, they were both drinking and he threw her into a bathroom glass and she broke his glasses and then he went to prison because >> that's all that happened on the plate. >> Well, that's the one I know. That's his parole officers kind of gave me all you know that he stom and but together wasn't a mutual fight at all. I don't I don't know any of that. >> Tracked her down at a at a third party's house because she tried to break up with him and that he went off and started beating up the guy and beat her up really bad. >> Can I read the police report? >> I'm not saying you're lying. I just WANT TO KNOW NOW. I'M JUST CURIOUS. I DON'T KNOW. >> But >> he went to prison because him and his brother were drinking. Cuz if you look at his brother's history, he is quite the drinker. Yeah. Cuz he went to prison after that. For years, Matt has stated that he and his ex, who was underage, reconciled, and that she admitted calling the police was a mistake. In reality, she was terrified of him. After Matt nearly killed her, hitting her with a glass bottle, threatening her and stomping on her head. He continued to stalk her and follow her, ultimately leading to her filing the police report. Katie had no idea up until this moment. >> A lot of things don't add up, >> right? A lot of things I use like a lot of differences in the statements that information why how he ended up over there how this happened certain conversations. Okay. Every time somebody talks to you it's different. Okay. In looking at this whole case we looked at it and then we looked at you and we talked to your parents or we talked to your family. Okay. Your sister, your mom and we we did some background to see what's going on. Okay. They've all said, you know, Katie was at one point this girl, okay? They show her a picture of you when before you met him, okay? And describe how your life was. Okay? And then we we go to now, okay? And we look at it and just to see the transition, okay? The transformation that you made. Okay? You know what's scary is in talking to his other girlfriends and seeing what happened. This is the same thing. He took bright, young, attractive, beautiful young girls and he turned them into >> he turned them into uh you know people who would lie for steal or cheat for people who he used and manipulated. Um he he physically turned them into drugs. Okay. And that's what we see and that's what I see with you. And you know what? I see this every day. But to see it transform this many people this way, it bothers me. Okay? And that is why your mom and your dad and your sister and your family is so concerned as to what's going on. What's going on with you? They're concerned for you. And I think they have a general genuine right to be concerned. >> They tell me every day they're happy for both of us. My mom My mom hangs out with FAT LIKE OUR FRIENDS >> because they want you to be happy and they're concerned for your safety. >> But I mean, WE'RE ACTUALLY DOING WELL. WE WERE in a lot of trouble. We did do a lot of bad stuff, but the last 3 years we're doing well. >> Then what happened? Is Matt back using drugs? >> No. >> Then what happened? >> What do you mean what happened? >> I mean, you have >> What happened? Where? When? >> You have this perfect thing set up, this land contract set up with Tom. >> He gave you a break. I mean, he gave him gave you guys a break. You got you got you said a new home. Okay. Tom did not need the money. Tom had more than enough money in his house. We've been through his we've been through his with a fine home. >> Right. >> The story that Tom that Matt makes up about Tom coming down with the next. Never happened. Guaranteed 100%. Never happened. Okay. So now we say why is he lying about the 17,000? So we start looking back. Okay. And what happens? He gets his bonus the beginning of February. How much did he get for a bonus? >> It was like 50 something like like 5300 or something. I I don't know. >> So, he gets his bonus, right? And that's supposed to go for the down payment, right? But it's spending. So, we run out of the money there. >> We have $5,000 for a while in there. >> You did not have $5,000 when you needed it. Okay. >> But we had it the whole time. >> But why didn't you pay it then? Why didn't you pay when you first got it? >> Cuz it was due the 28th. >> Okay. But >> but you spent it all. That $5,000 disappeared. So >> I understand that. But that's because he said that he gave him 17th of January. >> He didn't say that till the 26th >> and then the money was already gone. >> YES. BECAUSE I KEPT every time we spent money, I asked him we have to pay Tom. >> And he said what? >> And he just he would just say I know it's I have it under control. And then that's when he told me I gave him the money in January. >> Well, well, the money was already gone. You know that when when this whole thing came around on the 26th, that money was gone. And I think what happened is there was a panic that my god, we're not going to have the five grand, the first in installment to get Tom. We're going to lose the house. We're going to lose the >> Even if we didn't have the five grand with one paycheck, we could have put it back in. We have 3500, >> right? But you said that what would you say Sunday 3500 in one paycheck we could make up the difference. >> So why is it okay then? So so this is all a roost to off the state. >> Why would that even why HE TOLD HIS DAD? >> WHAT YOU'RE TELLING me is correct. This is a roose to rip off. >> WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? >> WELL because there was NEVER A $17,000. >> I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT saying you did that. Okay, I'M SAYING THIS IS LIKE >> THIS IS A ROOM by Matt. >> When police interview Matt's brother, he revealed that Matt told him he was going to have to move out of the home with Katie because he couldn't afford it. However, he hadn't told Katie yet. He was terrified of having to move back in with his parents and expected that Katie would leave him. Not that he's going to admit that to anyone but his brother. Well, we need to get to the truth of what uh what happened the time. Obviously, um [snorts] you know, we don't get search warrants for your house and you know, impounding your vehicles and everything else for nothing. Um and we know that this whole story that you fabricate fabricated,000 isn't true. >> That's not 100%. No, it's not 100%. No, it's not. Yeah. We subpoena um all your bank records um phone records. Okay. >> You name it. >> Um 17 grand is >> I told you wasn't in the bank. >> It doesn't matter. >> You never had it. Yeah. >> And you never gave it to Tom? >> Yes, I did. >> No, you didn't. >> Yes, I did. >> Oh, there's so much money. You know, I figured you guys it was going to be hard to prove that I gave him the money. I gave it to him cash. >> He didn't need the money. >> More money than >> That's what I thought. >> That's That's true. >> That's what I thought. >> So, and definitely if he and even if he did need money, he wouldn't come to you for it. >> Thought that >> to the guy that to the guy that doesn't have money, they had to take out his 401k for a down payment. Um, he wouldn't come to you for the money. >> That's what I thought. >> Well, that's what happened. He didn't come to you. >> He did come to me. >> No. >> Yes. >> We need to figure out the truth here as far as what happened. >> That's the truth. >> Well, that's where we're stuck because I'll tell you, I personally went over records. Okay. I've gone over the records. >> You can go. There's no way you could have had the money. I looked through them. I pulled out even added up all the cash I taken out of your account and it doesn't add up. >> It's not all the money from Bel. So, >> well, it's doesn't add up. >> I had money before I went to prison. >> I had a lot of money before I went to prison put away in my parents house. You You guys didn't You know, I didn't have money in the bank accounts. I never kept I never kept my money. >> It wasn't 17,000. Okay. >> I don't know. Katie knows it. Katie told us. No, he wouldn't have that money. >> Your spend, Matt, your spending habits even show that. Okay. I We looked at your spending habits. We looked at everything, >> you know, and you didn't have it. And you have >> Yes, I did. >> No, you didn't. >> All right. Well, whatever you guys say, you know, there's no way I can prove it. I wish there was. us. >> So, how did this whole plan to kill Tom? How did that transpire? >> You guys think I killed Tom? >> We know that we know that you're involved in it. >> Oh my god. No, I'm not involved in it. >> No, I'm not >> 100%. >> No, I'm not involved. >> So, how did that happen? >> I did. I did not kill Tom. I had nothing to do with it. That guy helped me out. He was my >> Exactly. So, how did you get to this point? [clears throat] >> I don't know what I don't know what you guys got or whatever, you know, but I did not kill Tom. That man was my friend. >> I'm not covering anything up. I'm not trying to >> This is the only thing that you got here. So, when you sit here, we went through all of your >> I have nothing to hide. I have nothing. I have nothing to hide. I don't know about 17,000. You need to talk to him cuz I don't know. I DON'T I TOLD YOU THAT. I DON'T KNOW. >> WHAT HAPPENED WHEN MATT came home and told you? >> I told you I WAS PISSED OFF AND I MADE HIM CALL TOM. >> And then one of something else is um You're saying that you called your mom um to have her go over and and check. >> Yes. And then talk to her >> and she No. And she's telling us that she never talked to you that Matt called her. >> Yes. And I talked to her, too. Yes, I did. Put her on the phone. >> So, now you're put on THE PHONE. PUT HER ON THE PHONE. >> WE ALREADY TALKED. We got to see her. >> THAT'S FINE. PUT HER ON THE PHONE AGAIN. >> I HAVE NOTHING TO COVER UP. I have nothing to hide. I don't know about the 17 grand. You need to talk to Matt. You're talking to the wrong person. I don't know. >> I GO TO WORK EVERY DAY. I go home. I WALK MY DOGS. I GO TANNING. And I go to the gym. That's >> I don't know. We're just telling you that >> I'm not trying to cover anything up. >> Well, we're we're saying that you're not being truthful. YOU'RE YOU'RE TELLING >> I AM. I I DON'T >> YOU'RE TELLING US what Matt wants you TO TELL US. >> NO, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU OTHER THAN THAT. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. TALK TO HIM. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. I don't I don't know where it came from. That's what he told me. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. I go to work. I go to the gym. I go tanning. I go bring my dogs on walks. And I go home. That's all I do. And occasionally I go out to here when I have time. That's all I do. I don't know. I don't >> I have his statement and her statement again. >> Have you ever been? >> No. >> Your hair your eyelash? >> If my hair was down there, I'd want to know how cuz I've never been down there. I was in his house one time and that was in August to give him our $500 earnest money. >> Matt told us it was at Christmas time. >> I know. He told me that in the car when we left and I was like, "You idiot. It was in August." And he's like, "Oh yeah, >> we had to give him the $500 earnest money before we even got the house." >> And that was the only time we were over there. >> The only time I was ever over there. I stood >> there's no reason for your any any of your no >> things to be there or masks. >> No. >> Okay. I've only been there in August. That is it. And that's the only time I was there with Matt. And to my knowledge, that's the only time Matt was there. >> You find out [clears throat] too that um you called or Matt called your mom and said that Tom's murder u before it was ever released that it was even a suspicious death. >> Well, come on. May I found deceased in a home? >> Yeah. Couldn't be a heart attack. Couldn't be a suicide. WHEN DID HE SAY >> if he when >> Yeah, >> you told Matt told your mom that. >> WHEN DID HE SAY THAT? Cuz I don't remember. >> I'm not TRYING TO COVER ANYTHING UP. >> Because we talked to the the captain that does the public relations. He's got covering the documents. You just heard what was told wasn't even released that it was a suspicious death. >> I don't know. I'M NOT TRYING TO COVER ANYTHING UP. I don't know anything about the 17,000. I don't know what happened. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. >> WELL, and you know math better than we do, right? >> Well, apparently I don't from what you're telling me cuz HE'S TALKING TO GIRLS ONLINE. SO, HOW DO I KNOW? >> YOU THINK you know math better than you do, right? >> Yes. >> Why would he come up with this $17,000? >> I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. >> WHAT WHAT DID HE TELL YOU? How did the $17,000 go? What did he do? What did he tell you about that story? After the time Tom came up and talked to him, Tom came back out there and he gave it to him. >> That's what he told me. >> And where did the >> at his work? >> Okay. Do you find it odd? >> Why? >> That Tom would show up at his work at night. asking asking Matt for money who he knows doesn't have any money because he knows he had to borrow from his 401k to get a down payment and he knows that he's struggling and that he's got this balloon payment and he he's got a brief all these other people he can go or excuse me Tom's got all these other people he can go to for money who he if he needed he would have gone to but he goes to Matt I don't know. >> I mean, just think of this. Just logically, just logically, why would Matt come up with the 17,000? Why would I come up with that? >> Why would he? >> Well, what do you mean? >> There's no way he save 17 grand. And you know that as much as you want to sit here and verbally tell, you know, >> well, you need to talk to him then because I don't know anything. >> But you live with him. You dated him for 5 years. >> Yes, I DO KNOW THAT HE was money all the time. I do know that >> I you know you looking at his bank is it's impossible. >> All this money is direct deposit. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And when you go through your bills you guys I know for a fact that you have to borrow money from your mom because >> I haven't borrow money from my mom in months. >> That's not what she says. Months. But supposedly money for years to come up with 17 grand. Impossible. >> Well, you need to talk to him then cuz I don't know anything about 17 grand. I DON'T >> I DON'T KNOW about the Monday. after Tom's death and pay off all these bills, all your all of your tickets and register your vehicles. >> We did that. We did that >> the day because we had money we could spend for it cuz he told me that he gave Tom $17,000. >> Yeah, he did. The basement where Tom was killed was full of overwhelming evidence, proving that Matt fired the initial shots and Katie picked up the shell casings and wrote MS-13 on the walls in order to stage the crime scene. >> So if uh if you look at everything we're looking at, there's only one logical conclusion. And I'll tell you right now, we are not the only ones who come up with this conclusion. Okay? We wouldn't be here. We have to put everything we have in front of a judge. The judge has said there's enough probable cause here to search your house. There's enough probable cause here to seize your vehicles. There's enough probable cause here to take possession of your vehicles and send them to the crime. That doesn't happen. That does not happen unless >> And then what if you search our house and our vehicles and there's nothing? >> Are we going to find nothing? >> I would think so. >> We're going to find something. >> What do you mean? You mean you're going to put it there AND FIND IT? THERE'S NOTHING IN THE HOUSE. >> WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT. >> We don't need to. You may go to someone else house. You don't know. >> Well, why would there be? I I >> supposedly there were 17,000 in your house. You know, >> I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT ANYTHING LIKE THAT. >> But G, something is going on. Do you agree with me that some exist? >> No, I don't. >> You never saw that before? >> No. >> What is that? >> I just asked a question myself. >> NO. WHAT? >> THAT'S NOT MY PHONE. SO, I DON'T KNOW WHOSE THAT IS. What is the logical conclusion? You tell me what's going on. Don't you think it's weird? >> Yeah, but I have no reason to think that he would kill him. >> He didn't. I MEAN, WHY WOULD I THINK THAT? >> Tell me WHO DID THAT. >> I DON'T KNOW. >> TELL ME WHO THIS >> BUT WHY WHY DOES IT MATTER? >> Because everything's pointing at him. Because all the discrepancies in this because he had the most gained by his death. Nobody else had anything to gain by killing Tom except Matt. We've spoken to everybody else. HE'S HAD >> $5,000 IS NOT WORTH >> $20,000. >> How about How about $128,000? >> $5,000 every four whatever. That's not worth 20,000 plus well $8,000 payments, >> right? That's not worth it. Why? >> You're right. You're right. You're right. >> For you and I. >> It's not worth it. Nothing was worth taking Tom away from his two children. Yet, both Katie and Matt have never shown any remorse. The two even attended Tom's funeral, giving condolences to the family and speaking to them about what a great man Tom was. >> Who suggested going shopping that morning? >> Well, but the thing is is he suggests going shopping every time the last six years. >> Mhm. >> You can ask anyone. He likes shopping more than I do. HE ALWAYS HAS. WELL, but that's not what your mom says. Your mom says you both like shopping. He likes buying things. He likes spending a lot on me. He likes um >> Yeah, but that's been for the last six years. >> Okay. But >> but we've also had times >> afford it, >> right? I was just going to say we've also had times where we can find anything. That's just how it was. >> Exactly. And that's how a relationship is, right? >> We've been through that over and over. All of a sudden, >> you know, all of a sudden he comes out. Why would he come with that story? >> I don't know. How can I >> Doesn't that bother you? >> I don't know. I DON'T KNOW. ALL THIS IS coming at me. I just want to go home and think about it. I don't know. >> Okay. Well, you can go home if you want. >> I DO. I DON'T KNOW. >> YOU WANT TO talk to your mom or your dad? >> NO, I DON'T WANT TO HEAR. I WANT HER TO BRING ME HOME. >> OKAY. I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. >> OKAY, KATIE, I'll go TELL YOU. >> I'M STRESSED OUT BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. >> I will go get your mom for you. Okay. >> All I know. >> I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. >> OKAY, I UNDERSTAND. I'll go get your mom now. Okay. >> Can I go home? >> YES, WE CAN. Let me go get your mom and you can go home. >> I'M HUNGRY. I'M CONFUSED. I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. ALL I KNOW IS WHAT MATT TOLD ME. >> YEAH, I understand that. But if you want to go home, that's fine. You get your mom. I need to go home. >> I have NOTHING ELSE TO TELL YOU. >> THERE'S NOT, you know, I guess what I'm looking for. >> THE ONLY REASON I WANT TO GO HOME IS THERE'S NOTHING ELSE I CAN TELL YOU. YOU GUYS KEEP ASKING ME AND SAYING YES, I DO, BUT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT THE 17 GRAND. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. >> OKAY. OKAY. I understand. >> I'M FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THAT'S ALL I KNOW. >> OKAY. I UNDERSTAND. I understand. Okay. with your mom and we'll have her take you home. But >> that's all >> I'm concerned about you. Okay. And that's that was our reason for coming to you. I'm concerned about you. I wanted to talk to you. Okay. Okay. You only know as much as Matt told you. And that's that's evident to me. >> THAT'S ALL I KNOW. >> THAT'S EVIDENT to me. Okay. So, we'll get you mom and we'll sit down and I will take you home. But I want you to know that I'm concerned about you. Okay? That's why I told you to talk to that's why I asked you to come down. Okay? I'm concerned about what you knew and what where you were at. Okay? >> I got to tell you that if you I'm just going to put this out there. If you are not being truthful in this, I [snorts] cannot help you. >> THAT'S FINE. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. >> OKAY. [clears throat] >> I WOULD BE TRUTHFUL IF I KNEW MORE BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE IN TROUBLE. I JUST WANT TO WORK. I want >> I don't want you to be in trouble either. But >> that's all I know. >> Just so we're on the same page. Okay. No. Let me get your mom. Do you want her? >> No. I just want to go home. >> Let me get your mom. >> Why can't I just leave with her? >> Let me go get her. Okay. She's in a different part. Let me go get her. Okay. >> And I will be right back. >> You promise she's here? >> I promise you. [snorts] You have my word on. >> YOU PROMISE I'M GOING TO all >> you, Katie. You all You never You You were never not going, BUT I'VE NEVER BEEN IN TROUBLE. I DON'T KNOW HOW THIS WORKS. I'M NOT anything about >> We asked you to come out. We asked you to come down. We didn't tell you arrest. Okay. We didn't pull you down in handcuffs. You came over your own will. for you to give your rights on it. And we told you we would give your right back. Do you want to go home? >> THE ONLY REASON I'M SAYING I WANT TO GO HOME IS CUZ YOU KEEP ASKING ME ALL THE STUFF THAT I DON'T KNOW. >> STOP ASKING me that. >> BUT HE KEPT ASKING AND I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. >> But we stopped asking. Okay. No, I Okay. Because you have to go home. You're going to go home. They're concerned for you. >> Okay. >> But you're fine. They're concerned for you. Okay. So that is why we're talking to you. Okay. Obviously, you got to support it. You got support. >> And that's what we're talking about. >> I know. >> Okay. So, use that support. I'm going to >> There's a lot here that and we've been talking there's a lot here that that I think is going on in life that you don't know about. But there's some things like like I said there's things that may be totally in to you that have autonomy to us. That's why we're looking for details. That's why we're looking for I have them. Okay. We've been through this and and and we asked her to come in and she wanted to come in. She wants to go home and we she's not underest she's lied and she came down here by herself. I and you know I answer interview there's things that were said that she doesn't want to see it. You can imagine that too, right? Somebody you care about. Nobody wants to be like that. Nobody wants to. But you got to look at the facts in this. You got to you got to look at the breakdown. told your mom I told I told your mom Katie that in talking to you that I can [clears throat] actually see the wheels turning your thoughts and you know for whatever reason you're just >> well LIKE I TOLD HIM WHAT I TOLD YOU GUYS IS ALL I KNOW THAT'S WHY I'M FRUSTRATED CUZ I DON'T HAVE ANY MORE intel >> and and you're frustrated because of the fact that you found some information that you did not right >> now obviously Katie is eager to play the victim here as someone who was cheated on and lied to by her dorky looking boyfriend, but Katie cheated on him, too. Police uncovered in interviews that Katie had been cheating on Matt longterm with another man. When police spoke to the man, he revealed that he and his friends referred to her as Crazy Katie because she would often refuse to leave his house when he asked her to go, but he didn't know half of the crazy that Katie was capable of. Matt testified at trial that it was Katie's idea to murder Tom. So yeah, don't feel too bad for her here as she cries for her mommy. >> You want to go to school? >> And you can't. >> I just want to go home though. >> Do you want to go home? >> Yes, I do. I WANT HER TO BRING ME SOME. >> Listen to me. >> Do you want some? >> No, I JUST WANT TO GO. I WANT TO GO. >> I just want to go. >> Listen to me. >> If you know anything, >> I TOLD HIM. THAT'S WHY I'M FRUSTRATED. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, LOVE. You and forever. >> I don't know anything. The only thing I know IS WHAT I TOLD THEM. WHAT DAD TOLD ME HAPPENED. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. THAT'S WHY I'M SO FRUSTRATED. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE. I DON'T. THIS IS A SERIOUS SITUATION. I WOULD SAY IF I KNEW. OKAY. I DON'T KNOW. >> It is so serious. I might [clears throat] >> WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT? I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. THE ONLY THING I KNOW IS WHAT I TOLD HIM. That's it. >> Because you think you're covering for it. >> BUT I'M NOT. I TOLD HIM YOU CAN TAKE A LIE DETECTOR. I DON'T CARE. I'M NOT COVERING ANYTHING. THE ONLY THING I KNOW is what he told me and that's it. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. >> Any inconsistencies in the stories. >> BUT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING BUT THAT. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. I just want to go home. SO LET'S JUST GO, PLEASE. >> DO YOU KNOW they had your car? >> I KNOW THAT. That's what they JUST TOLD ME. YES. >> AND they're searching your house. >> Yes. That's I KNOW. THEY TOLD ME. I don't I should be worried. There's nothing there. I clean. I cook. [snorts] [sighs and gasps] You house >> in August. That was it. Like I told them to give him the earnest money. YOU KNEW THAT CUZ I TOLD YOU I was going over there that day. That's it. That's it. I just want to go home. Please, Mom. I would be happy to take you home. But [snorts] Kitty, I need you to think. I don't HAVE ANYTHING TO TELL. MOM, ALL I TOLD HIM IS WHAT I KNOW. ONE MAN CAME HOME AND TOLD ME. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. MOM, if I knew something else, I WOULD TELL HIM. IF I WENT HOME AND THOUGHT OF SOMETHING ELSE, I WOULD CALL. I DON'T WANT TO BE IN TROUBLE. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE. I KNOW NOTHING, MOM. NOTHING. THAT'S [clears throat] ALL I KNOW. THAT'S ALL I CAN TELL. THAT'S IT. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. >> THEY SAID IF THEY find anything connected, >> I HAVE NOTHING CONNECTING ME. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. Mom and the only thing I knew was when I saw the news and then WE WENT OVER THERE. THAT'S IT. AND OF COURSE, THE WAY HE TOLD ME. THAT'S ALL I KNOW. THERE'S NOTHING ELSE I CAN TELL. IF I TOLD ANYTHING ELSE, I'D BE MAKING A STORY UP BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE, MOM. I don't know anything else. I don't know anything else. But I just want to go home because I just This is just too much for me right now. I don't This is too much. [clears throat] >> Remember when you were little and I said, "Katie, always tell the truth." I am telling >> EVEN IF IT'S BAD EVEN IF IT'S BAD CONSEQUENCES I'M TELLING THE TRUTH I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING else mom I don't I DON'T WANT TO BE IN TROUBLE I HAVE DOGS THE JOB I LIKE I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE MOM ALL I KNOW IS I WAS IN THE HOUSE OF August and what Matt told me that DAY THAT'S ALL I KNOW I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE TO SAY IS I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING else I don't I No, I don't know anything. I want to let go. >> Listen to me. >> What? >> If I if I have to drive you over to Helen and check you in so I know you're going to be safe and he's not going to find you, that's what I'm GOING TO DO. >> OKAY. [snorts] LET ME GET MY DOG. >> You're not going anywhere near him or the house without one of his children with you >> until this is all over with. >> OKAY. My rule. I just think >> Shockingly, for 3 years, both Katie and Matt were free as police continued gathering evidence against them. And sadly, another person fell victim to Matt's ruthlessness during that time. In 2013, Matt dealt drugs to a 30-year-old named Spencer Patz, who died of an overdose. However, police didn't know that until 2016 when both Katie and Matt were taken into custody for the murder of Thomas Wick. When questioned this time, the two turned on one another. Katie revealed that the murder was all Matt's idea and that he had also killed Spencer. In turn, Matt claimed that it was all Katie's idea. However, evidence showed that it was Matt who pulled the trigger. As a result, he was sentenced to 51 years in prison combined for the murder of Tom Wick as well as the manslaughter of Spencer Patz. Katie was sentenced to 21 years in prison for secondderee reckless homicide and perjury. Our thoughts are with the family of Thomas Wick, who have had to endure unthinkable pain, all because two selfish people took advantage of his kindness. Thank you for watching today's video. Whether you're new here or have been with us for a while, check out one of the craziest cases I've ever covered right here or one of my newest uploads right here.