What's what's on your mind, buddy? >> I don't think this was an accident. >> And I think my mom had something to do with this. >> This is 16-year-old Owen and his 14-year-old sister Kate, and this is their murderous mother, Barbara Passa. >> I didn't do anything. >> You started the fire. >> No, I didn't. >> She's just killed her husband and set fire to their own family home. >> Like I said, I watch too much CSI and I like we're getting her life. >> Because this homicide is one that Barbara has been planning for years, using her 25 years as a nurse to concoct a deadly poison as her own children now realize what their mother has done. >> I'm not going to sit here and say I killed my husband. Are you going to arrest me today? >> In my mind she's guilty till proven innocent. >> By the time the police in Centerville, Iowa, received a call about a house fire, it was already too late. As they pulled up to the address, flames poured out of the bedroom windows and smoke billowed into the sky. Unsure of who was inside, they prepared to go in and save anyone they could, even as the fire raged on, but nothing could have prepared them for what awaited them inside. >> Okay, go get him. >> I Donnie, change the bottle. >> You ready? >> Yeah. >> [laughter] [laughter] >> In [snorts] the back bedroom, where the fire appeared to have begun, police could just barely make out the shape of a body sunk into the springs of a burnt mattress. At first, they hoped that maybe he was still alive. Through the smoke and flames, they worked together to lift the victim and bring them out of the house. >> [clears throat] >> By this point, police have seen enough to know that their victim hasn't survived. The extent of burns across his body was far too severe. To an outsider, it might seem like an open-and-shut case. A man got trapped inside a fire. But how police found his body raises questions, because the victim, 50-year-old father of two Tim Pasha, [music] was lying in bed. It was clear that as the fire raged all around him, he hadn't moved, hadn't tried to escape. And that told police that something here was very, very wrong. And if you enjoy killers like this, realize they're not winning an Oscar, subscribe, and check out our Spotify, where we upload podcasts every week. >> I think they got the fire out. Okay. We're going to go back in and do some more. >> Yeah, you need to do a secondary search. >> Yeah. All right, we're going to go back in and climb up here. We're going to go back in and climb up the fire a little bit. >> Well, we need to do a secondary search. >> Well, they're not burning now. >> Huh? >> They're not burning now. >> I don't know, but we'll have to do a secondary search just just to make sure. Do you think the fire >> [laughter] >> Do you think the fire is under control? >> I think so. >> Yeah. >> We're going to have to go in and check one more time before we do just to make sure. >> Okay, go in and do the kitchen and the living room real quick, maybe hit it, and then go do a search of the whole house. >> Okay. >> Inside, police thankfully found no more victims. In the home, Tim lived with his wife of nearly two decades, Barbara Passa, and his two children, teenagers Kate and Owen. Barbara, Kate, and Owen were gone for the morning, away at sports tournaments. And when they raced back to the home to hear the news, Barbara didn't exactly give the reaction anyone was expecting. Rather than seeming shocked that her husband was killed, she had no reaction at all. At first, law enforcement thought she might just be in shock. That is until they assured her that a full autopsy would be conducted. [music] According to officers at the scene, it's at that point that she became angry and showed her first bit of emotion. If you're more angry that your husband is going for an autopsy than you are that he's dead, well, that's an easy way to move to the top of the suspect list. The very next day, Barbara came to the house once more to speak with investigators, and she wasn't exactly oozing grief. >> Hey Barb. >> So, she's um So, you mean this is the fire? >> This is Yeah, we got state fire marshals, DCI. This guy is done. >> So, he's done. >> Um yeah, the state fire marshal's done. Um so, we're going to We haven't even gone in yet, so >> Okay. >> Um it's kind of routine stuff like that. Um probably going to need to set up a time tomorrow, maybe talk to you. Is that all right? >> you know, maybe tomorrow I might get a hold >> Right. So, is DCI is that standard? What I mean >> Right. Anytime there's something like this happens, you know, everybody's going to want to know what happened, how the fire started. I help them determine that with fire marshals. We work for the same office. >> Okay. Like I said, I watch too much CSI and I'm like, what the hell? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Think there'll be a time that we get together in the afternoon. >> supposed Yeah, afternoon would work good cuz I'm supposed to go to a there's no security stuff, so. >> Okay. >> Um >> Right. >> Police already had their suspicions that Barb knew more than she was letting on. But before they even got a chance to investigate, they got a call from an unlikely source, her teenage son, who had been begging his aunt to take him to speak with the police. Immediately after sitting down, he didn't mince words. >> That tells me you're going to have a >> Yeah. >> rightfully so a little hard time. Okay. What's What's on your mind, bud? >> It is I don't I don't think it was an accident. Based off stuff that's happened in the past and just stories that I've been told that aren't lining up and then just >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Why don't you just You just go ahead and tell me what's What What are you thinking there? >> Well, I know in the past my dad came to me cuz he was getting He played in a band and he was getting ready to go to a show and he noticed that my mom had put something in his drink. She like handed him a water and then you could tell like the drink mixed with the chemical with And after that I just kind of wrote it off. I just thought they're they've been fighting. He's probably just him being paranoid. >> When you When did you see that one happen? >> Most of them most of them all. Pretty pretty recently. >> When you say you mean What do you I mean do you >> He thinks something's been going on. >> He did some more research into it cuz he used to be a paramedic, so he knew a lot of side effects and then the biggest one is he started showing alopecia. Just he was just losing spots of hair and that was a pretty known side effect of that he used. And >> [clears throat] >> I mean, less than a week probably less than 2 weeks ago, he found a crushed on the floor that you could tell had been split apart and tried to dump it into something. And then >> Where Where was that at? >> In my living room. Like right by the couch. And then My aunt said that he had like contacted her about where he'd saying things like she's going to kill me. I need to get out of here and stuff like that. They've been having like really big arguments lately. He kept talking about splitting up. wanted to split up, but my mom didn't think that we would go with we would go with her. So, she was worried there. >> For weeks, Tim had expressed to his siblings, friends, and even son that he was afraid Barbara was poisoning him using her job as a nurse to get the medication she needed to get the job done because by all accounts, Barbara would rather have him dead than go through a divorce. You see, Barbara was somewhat obsessed with appearing like the perfect all-American Midwestern family. She posted constantly on Facebook and even posted these long tearful posts less than 24 hours after her husband's death. A death that, as you've likely guessed by now, she caused. All because, according to her friends, she didn't want to risk losing her perfect image when her husband left her. And there was more she was afraid of losing, too. >> Like her speech patterns have just really has that's like really robotic and she doesn't I know it's a scene she never really seemed to be that upset for just having a husband die. That's also another his health kind of started deteriorating with like pressure and he just um it really got short pain cuz the medicine he had all of a sudden just like stopped working. >> [clears throat] >> Today she mentioned she bumped life insurance this year. She did the maximum amount. She tried to do more. Today when she's talking she seemed to know like his what his work life insurance included and social security all that. She seemed already have that all planned. >> In the months leading up to Tim's death, Barbara increased his life insurance policy from 50,000 to 200,000, the maximum amount, and even tried to change to another policy in order to take out an even higher amount against her husband. In addition, she dramatically increased the homeowner's insurance policy. Back in her interrogation, Barbara is blissfully unaware that her son knows all of her secrets and that the cops aren't the only ones looking at her as the culprit. >> [snorts] >> How's things going with the kids and everything today? >> Um we went down for the SSI benefits so >> Okay. >> that kind of always trying to be the man of the house so he's worried about finances and all that stuff but >> Mhm. >> for me today it's probably the worst day. >> Yeah. Just with everything coming down. >> Nervous about what you know figured out what happened and what's going on and I don't know. Yesterday I got the arrangements and stuff and I'm supposed to get a call from he's supposed to have his autopsy maybe today. >> Okay. >> So I've been anxious about that call and >> All right. When you get that call whatever you you won't be able to get reception here so you just have to walk outside either, okay? >> Okay. Just >> Concrete >> jungle down here, so. >> I know. Um Yeah. I can be cool and collective and nothing bothers me, but this is really got me stressed. Just you know. >> Mhm. >> This process and not having answers and >> Right. So, sometimes in cases like this, the police department asks the fire marshal to send in the BCA to come in and kind of help out, try to figure out what's going on. You know, these are sudden. When everybody wants an answer, you're going to want answers kind of what we find. You know, my kid, they're going to want answers on what happened with him. So, >> The police ask about her history with her husband, which she describes as usual. Though, that's not exactly what she was saying to her girlfriends leading up to his death. Just 2 weeks before Tim died, Barbara told her friends over drinks that she hated Tim and that if she wanted to get rid of him, she could. But, where did that hatred stem from? Largely, their financial situation. >> How are you guys, I mean, it's America and it's a tough year for everybody, but I mean, how are you guys sitting that way? >> Well, we probably looked paycheck to paycheck. We got behind on our mortgage and had to refinance and you know, some creditors that He stressed that stuff. Um >> Were you guys able to find common ground at least to >> Yeah. >> get that handled? >> He handled the bills for a while and then he got tired of it and kind of handed them back to me and but then he'd pay certain ones and and there's passwords now that I don't know because those are the ones he did >> Right. >> And just kind of lived a little too freely and had a little online shopping. >> Yeah, don't we all kind of have those things where >> Yeah. >> future buys sometimes. So, you're checking the calendar >> Yeah. Yeah, if it's not, you'd have me for lots of probably Yeah. >> Yeah, overdrafts here and there, maybe. >> As much as we fought, you know, or I had it, you know, issues or problems, he was usually supportive. I mean, You know, said he loved me. >> Inside the home, the police found piles and piles of bills showing overdrafted accounts, debt, and rejected credit card applications. Barbara had been spending far beyond the family's means, driving them deeper and deeper into debt, despite Tim's pleas that she should ease up on her spending. The debt was so bad, in fact, that the house was set to go into foreclosure. And yet, as Barbara recounts the night leading up to the death of her husband, she acts as if everything was as peaceful as could be. >> So, do you remember Tim coming to bed at all? >> No. But I had a shower low about >> [sighs] >> 2:30, 3:00. And he was in bed then. A lot of times he'd wake up in the night and read for a while. I'd wake up and roll over and he was on his Kindle. He liked to read comics online. >> Do you remember that Friday night at all? >> Um Not really. Like I said, it was just the only time I was I used the shower when I got up at Well, I set my alarm for 5:00, snoozed. I get work I get it I finally get out of bed about 5:36. >> Mhm. >> Kind of the same thing on Saturday. About 5:30 I had to go to the bathroom, so I got up. One snooze I had to sketch out. >> So, between 2:30 and 3:00 you got up, Tim was in bed sleeping, and then you got up and got your >> Mhm. >> And you said was he Did then at 5:30 when you got up did Does he wake up with your alarm? >> No. >> Did you guys talk at all? >> Uh no. >> Did he have plans to get up and go with you or anything? >> Well, usually he sets his own alarm or he'll get up. Um if he's going to go and, you know, I I know I made plenty noise. I you know, had a light on and I waited for the kids to get all their stuff done. I cooked them some eggs. We had some cinnamon rolls. Um so I made him some breakfast cuz I knew it'd be a long day, and um went in and took a shower once they left, and when I got out of the shower, I said, "Are you going with me?" And he said he didn't feel good, and he went rolled over and went to sleep, so. >> What time do you think that was? >> Probably 6:30, quarter to 7:00. Cuz I you know. This hairdo I have everything to do I mean I'm not a makeup person, and blow-dry it's natural. You don't blow-dry it, or I'd have a fro, and >> Mhm. >> I just [clears throat] kind of put my stuff on it, and put some mascara on cuz I knew I'd have my sunglasses on all day, and got my clothes on, and he said no, so I went >> Okay. Did that kind of piss you off that he didn't go, or is it >> No, like I said, he wasn't one that we got we got to go all the time, so we always kind of felt like if we if they had at least one parent there, we never um you know, we we did travel basketball and different things, but we always felt like if they got hurt, one of us should be there. >> So you take a shower, and the dog does he go outside or anything, or >> Um I tried I tried to put her outside, and she does this loud yell thing, so >> Mhm. >> I brought her back in. >> Okay. >> She's usually before August or Halloween, we start bringing her in, and then once it starts warming up, then she just goes outside. But that transition's pretty hard. But like even when we work during the day, she's in the house by herself. Like I said, that's the sitting room, the room in front of our master, is where she pees. >> Okay. >> She poops under my dining room table cuz it's got that flower pattern. I think she honestly thinks it's grass. Or if she's mad at Kate, she poops in Kate's room. Um but usually she'll wait for somebody to come home cuz he always came home for lunch, but yeah. But this I I don't know if it was having the windows open, but all of a sudden just the dog smell was just I don't know. I was gagging. >> Okay. >> Um so that's why I lit the candle. >> Why? Do you remember Tell Tell me about that, I guess, then. >> I had it in the bathroom with me. And I um You know, he just said he was nauseated and you know, smells really bother me, so >> Mhm. >> when I left, I set it on his nightstand to kind of get rid of that, cuz she'd been sleeping there um on the pile of dirty clothes beside his bed. Just cuz she either does that or the couple nights before she had slept right beside me, cuz when I got up with the sugar low that night, I stepped on her. When I got up for work, my first foot hit her. >> Really? >> Mhm. >> So You know. >> So So the dog was Was the dog laying next to his bed then when you took the candle in? >> Um no, she was following me. She knew I was leaving. >> Okay. >> She usually She loved She loved him, but if she knew somebody was going for a ride or leaving, she would you know, follow you around. >> Okay. But that time she didn't want to go outside? >> I put her outside, but then she barked to be let out. I brought her back. >> Okay. >> Cuz I didn't want the neighbors to have to listen to it all day. >> Got it. Okay. >> Because Tim would leave her outside barking, cuz she He was trying to transition her. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Cuz when he came home at lunch the last couple weeks, he'd put her out. Well, once it finally got nice, he'd put her outside. >> Okay. >> And then she'd hear us come home and wait at home and bark and so >> Okay. So if I'm tracking you correctly, the dog did go outside for a bit of time and then came back in. >> Yeah. >> And then you're getting ready and showered and then you said I think Was he nauseated or was he just sick or what did he say? >> He didn't tell me he didn't feel good. Kids have been nauseated and he said he was nauseated. Um So, you know, just the smell. So, I put the candle there and >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Did he acknowledge that at all? >> Um He knocked the candle, I guess. He just rolled over, I think. >> Barbara reportedly told anyone who would listen that she believed the candle started the fire, but her son knew the instant he heard it that the story had to be a lie. >> She She's I've never seen her put out a candle cuz Dory She'll go to the bathroom pretty oftenly in the house and bedroom and she's never put out a candle for that before. Um Dory she said she was sleeping. But the doors are open and the room is closed off and don't burn candles or anything. >> No. >> Not that I know of. I mean, like some very rare. And if she does light them, she'll put them in the light in the kitchen cuz it's You have a pretty open house so it's kind of really I've never seen her light a candle in there. Especially she's She's a smart woman though. And she would know it'd be a bad idea to light candles with someone sleeping right by them. And leave the house. >> Back in her interrogation, Barbara is completely unaware that her son is destroying her cover story bit by bit. >> So, did you Was that somebody telling you there was an issue at your house or >> Uh my first one was Kate. She had screenshotted um a Facebook thing from Shelby, uh Kinsley, the neighbor, their house is on fire. >> Okay. What did you do that next then after you saw that? >> Well, I pulled over um and tried to make some phone calls. I think I tried to talk to her. And our phone got cut off. I think I talked [snorts] to Beth Ann. Um and we got interrupted. Um I can't I think I talked to maybe Owen cuz I asked him where they were at cuz they just went through >> Mhm. >> And I don't know when I don't know if I talked to Tiana or not. I don't know. It's one of those things that's just like a kind of blur. Um cuz I didn't know should I go get my kids? Cuz they were freaking out, you know. I didn't know what to do. You know, my first instinct is to protect my kids. >> What were you told on the phone then? >> That my house was on fire. Um and Beth Ann asked me, you know, where we were at cuz she didn't know. Um And I remember squealing out Tim was in the house. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Did you ever try to call Tim? >> No. >> You know if anybody did? >> Um I know when my I didn't answer for my mom, she did. Cuz if she can't get a hold of me, she'll call Tim. And he didn't answer, so she was freaking out. Um I don't know if anybody else did or not. >> Okay. And then what did you do next? >> Well, I finally figured out that I should turn around. And so I flew back. >> Mhm. First [clears throat] person you got a hold of was this screenshot from Kate. And then did you call her first or did you call someone else? >> I think I tried to call her back. >> Okay. >> Or she called and I answered. I honestly don't I mean, I finally pulled over and >> Mhm. >> I said I didn't know where they were at. I knew they were ahead of me. Um You know, trying to think of how to get to my kids. I mean, even losing your house to a fire. >> Mhm. >> I guess I just assumed Tim was mobile and moving. >> Okay. And then I guess you got back and what did you see >> Um, well, I just said like my pal moved but then had me on the phone and um I think I either got a text or a call from Alan and then the neighbor kid had told him that he knew somebody was in the ambulance. So maybe that's when I tried to call Bethany again. And she told me I just needed to come to the house. She wouldn't tell me anything. >> Okay. >> And so when I pulled up I parked and um I could tell by the look on Wendy's face. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> For sure. >> No. And that's a lot to take in. You know, and then like I said our job's kind of put things together and try to figure out what happened and and I'm actually I think you said when you're out there you watched a lot of CSI shows. Um, what do you think maybe happened? >> I don't know. Mhm. I know that Mike was nice enough to fulfill my wish or not wish, my request to see him. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And I Oh god. He wasn't alive when that happened to him. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> You know, like I don't know what happened. I You know. I mean we're going to cremate him. That's not what I would pick in this scenario. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> That whole fire thing just flips me out. I mean the smell of smoke now or Mom's neighbors were having a bonfire Saturday night and that pushed, you know, pushed me over the edge to think of that. >> Mhm. >> You know, >> [clears throat] >> my friend's house that I went to the other night to spend some time with my friends. She said she lit a bonfire and just thought she was doing, you know, a fun favor, making s'mores, and her husband came along and said, "What are you doing?" You know, those things get, you know, Tim is my husband. Now, I can't say we were madly in love, but I loved him. And I wouldn't wish that upon anybody. >> Mhm. >> And that, I mean, I, you know, not knowing, just It's crazy. >> Mhm. And [clears throat] that's kind of one of the things we we need to determine, but I always talk with people, too, cuz I wasn't there. I mean, I don't know. Somehow this house was started on fire. We need to figure out how that happened, and you know, we're doing the autopsy, and we'll have a good understanding of what their findings are, and we understand that process, right? >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> We have our lab team down here, and the fire marshal's down here. They do a forensic investigation. >> from that, did it give you anything out? >> You know, that they're still working up there. So, I mean, we'll step out and try to get that answer for you today, and um but my goal here is, you know, I want to talk with you and make sure there's nothing that um we need to discuss, because, you know, the science is there. You know, we're pretty good at determining things that are going to happen. If it was the candle, they're going to be able to tell me if it was or was not. Um you know, if it's not the candle, we're going to have to figure out what else was there that might have started the fire. Um you know, our indication is Tim's a healthy guy. Um I don't think he's going to you know, pass of some kind of natural causes, and then somehow the house started on fire. That doesn't make sense, right? Um so, you know, we need to look at all those aspects, but, you know, at the same time we want to give individuals the opportunity, if they maybe saw or heard something to help us with the investigation too because you know, we're going to put things together and it's going to come out and we want to make sure that we have full understanding. You know, I don't want to jump to conclusions. >> he's a suspect? >> We're we're we're just trying to figure out what happened. I mean, what I guess what would make you think that? >> I don't know. I've never been through this process before. I I I I don't know. I mean >> Yeah. >> I mean, just I don't know. Like [clears throat] I said. >> Mhm. >> I know you have to look at everybody, you know, if you that's what you're thinking. I I I don't I don't know. >> Yeah. And Barbara, I've been doing this kind of like a a long time, you know, and um we're good at what we're doing and that's why we come down here and I think most families appreciate that, right? Cuz they want to >> Yeah. I'm just >> Um but I'm also a realist, you know, so I I look at things and I prepare myself for um if things come out different, right? Is there another explanation that I'm missing, you know? Um sometimes the facts come together in a in a case and they point in one direction and you know, black and white it might look like this, but there might be more of the story and that's my job is to talk with people. >> Right. >> You know, to try and get a better understanding. >> Finally, Barbara seems to begin to realize that the cops aren't buying her story. It will be some time before she realizes that her own children haven't believed a word she said and when she comes to that realization, it'll hit her hard. >> My goal here is that said, I prepare myself for what I think that maybe information is going to come out from now on top to you or from the our investigation is not going to maybe correlate with um the information you're giving us. Um and the reason I I I say that is I I I want to be able to talk about that a little bit because I can understand um stressors at home and I talk with people and I talk about relationships that you try and try for years to make right and sometimes they don't get right and and no matter what you do, there's there's no good outcome and then you add finances on top of that, there's a lot of stress going on. Um wouldn't be the first person I talked to that that is one of those tipping points for a relationship. Um you know, my concern is I'm not going to have an opportunity to talk with you about that if I just don't ask now kind of about that relationship because what what I think is the investigation's going to come out because I don't think that candle started the fire. >> Okay. >> Um I don't think that that happened. I think that the you're right, the neighbors kind of were outside. Um I think that you know, we want to kind of talk about maybe the timing of when the fire started. You know, and then I'm worried what the doctors going to find at the autopsy. I think maybe you maybe talked with some of the first responders about maybe not having one an autopsy done. >> No, because that whole Not because I don't know what want to know what happened. Because I mean, Mike and I had that conversation and it was to Mike. >> Mhm. >> I hope and pulling everything out even in that shape just >> Mhm. >> I mean, when my stepfather died, I was so glad that the funeral director was in Ankeny. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> That he didn't have to go to the morgue. >> Mhm. Right. And and I just got to look at the totality of all that information and and try to figure out what's going on and and if there's other explanations for it. Because what I think is that maybe we're not being completely truthful about any of the interactions in the morning. Um I think just talking here a little bit we've had a little bit of inconsistencies on our conversation. Um and I just want to leave here and make sure I'm clear on that, okay, Barb. Um you know, cuz I don't want to leave here and you know, Mike and I can look at the evidence and write our own story and say that this is something more than it is if that's where the facts lead us. I mean, that's my job is I'm a fact finder. My concern is is that there's going to be facts that come up that are suspect of something else happening. Um and maybe I might jump to the wrong conclusion. You know, if there's something more going on with the relationship or there's an argument that happened. You know, I need to to know that because I can't I wasn't there, you know, I so I can't interject and maybe speculate on what I think happened. I can only go with facts. We have a sentence that's not you know, I mean, you indicate that you lit a candle and if it if the fire guys end up saying it's you know, fire was started by a candle, I can't find any other reason for it. I need to figure out what what would happen and why would why would the why would a fire start in this room? >> I I don't know. I don't >> And then if the autopsy comes back and there's concerns through with the medical examiner has, you know, I got to be prepared to deal with that. Um >> Do you know when that's going to happen? >> I think shortly, yeah. I think hopefully today they'll have a good indicator. It might take a little bit longer than that on some things. Um you understand how that works. They don't do toxicology and that kind of stuff. Um you know, make sure that there's not any other system failures or something like that in his body. I don't think that's going to be the case. I don't think this was a heart attack or or a stroke or anything like that. I don't think that's going to be the fact. >> Investigators determined that the fire began on the right side of the bed near Tim's body, which was set using an open flame. They believe that it was set using this lighter, which was found sitting in the attached bedroom. Really, the least she could have done was get rid of a little evidence. >> I think we're going to find some things at the autopsy that's going to say he didn't die in the fire. I think there's going to be the fire guys are going to tell us that the fire didn't start by the candle. And it's going to leave Mike and I to sit here and say, "Okay, maybe this was planned and something that Barbara thought about for a long time or maybe it was one of those things where I just can't take life anymore and it's the only thing I thought I could do to keep my family and keep Owen and and Kate with me." Um I get that. I understand that. Um But I think that that's what we're going to find out, Barbara. And I guess I I'd rather hear that from you so I get at least a little emotion with that instead of the black and white because I I don't [snorts] think I think the most we think about it, I think all ever we can do in a to plan things or think about it, I think maybe something happened during the night or early in the morning that you didn't know what to do now. I I think that things just steamrolled and and maybe looking back if you could change [clears throat] things we would. I think you're a good person. I think that you would change things. But the information that you're giving us is not going to not going to correlate with what the other >> that shows Barbara. >> You know, we're we're probably not going to have the ATM at the bank. We're not going to have the one at the cell towers where you're at. The neighbors neighbors knew when he left the house and when the fire started. Now's the opportunity to help us understand what >> the bank. I have the money in my purse. >> But it's not going to change how the fire started or how he died. You know, I think that we all wish that maybe if it was just an accidental fire, right? That that would make it things easier. But, you know, maybe that you the house burned down and and people responded and accepted that. Uh in this case they didn't. They called us in and investigated and I have a job to do. >> Right. I understand that. >> And I'm going to go through the evidence. I'm going to have to present it. I'm going to have to discuss it. I'm going to say this is not plausible. I don't think Barbara is at this other end of the spectrum where she just did this because she wants to be with the soccer coach. >> That's like >> That's way out there. I know. I know. But I these are the things that come out of it. >> I I understand. Yes. >> Right? If you were to say oh she just wanted the money. It was a life insurance thing. You know, I'm not going to she wanted him gone because he didn't treat her well. He didn't do anything. He was lazy. >> No. I wanted one of my kids to have their father. I >> And what what what do you think's going to happen when the the medical examiner calls me up? Because I don't I don't even need to wait for his today to know that he's going to tell me there's some concerns here with his body. >> I don't know. >> What what How do you know that? >> when I went to when I left. >> Mhm. And I don't think that that's going to be possible that when you left that Tim was alive. >> He was. He was snoring. >> And I think that the medical examiners might differ to that. And that's what's concerning. That's why we asked you all those questions about her is because we want to know a good timeline of where the dog was at and where everyone was at because it's important to us. And I'm telling you right now that I don't Nobody in this room room believes that that's the true story. >> Including her own son. The autopsy ultimately determined that there was no smoke inhalation in Tim's lungs, meaning he was dead before the fire started. And his cause of death was found, largely thanks to her own son's suggestion, Tim was killed with an injection of propofol, a drug that Tim had been concerned his wife would use [music] and that Owen then remembered and passed on to investigators. A standard toxicology report wouldn't search for substances like propofol, but thanks to Owen's suggestion, a toxicology report was run specifically looking for propofol and enough was found in Tim's system to have killed him. And as tragic as that is, we hope that his loved ones can find some comfort in knowing that it wasn't the fire that took him and that by the time it began, he was already at peace. >> My brother said he just he didn't even fight to survive. And he didn't move. And he had [clears throat] no seizure or anything. And >> [snorts] >> his I think his natural instincts would have caused him to react, not just let himself die there. You know, when I used to to me thinking in the garage or um today that when you heard the ambulance was there, that you knew your dad was gone. Yeah, I did. Yeah, I knew it right away. It was why he I guess I I just I get it. It's just I get a feeling that it's >> How How do you think you and your mom are going to get along in the meantime? >> I mean, it's I'm probably going to have I'd just assume I won't. I I can already tell from today I just have a feel like there's a distrust there on my end. No, like it's it's just one of them. It almost feels like I'm kind of portraying it right now in my mind that she's guilty till proven innocent. >> Sure. >> So, the contrary. So, I just it feels like I can't trust her till I have answers. So, I just takes having it. >> Sure. >> I'm going to talk to my precious son. Is that going to be okay? >> Yes. >> I just wanted to say thank you. >> Really? >> Thank you. I've been dealing with this all day and really, I don't I don't know where else to turn. >> Sure. Well, I think call me anytime. >> I mean, he's a 16-year-old kid who just lost his dad and he thinks his mom did it. >> Sure. >> I can't help him with that. >> Which part is cracking >> I've tried it all day long to justify everything on that paper, but you know, counteracts everything he's saying and I can't do that anymore. >> What do you think? >> I don't know. Part of me refuses to let my mind go there that she's capable of this. But I don't know. Um and I know it's not fair to judge people's reactions in a time of trauma because you don't know how you're going to react. >> Sure. >> But her reaction at the scene really shocked me. >> Barbara, >> Um there really wasn't a reaction. Um I didn't feel like anyway. Um when she didn't react when she when I believe it was the way Julie told her. Um I figured when my dad got there, cuz her and my dad are very close. I figured when my dad got there, that's when she would break. But, she didn't. And she really hasn't broke all day. >> No one wanted to believe Barbara's teenage son, but from the start he knew and fought for the truth, even though it meant losing his mother and his father. In his mother's interrogation, she exhibits much less bravery than the boy she's raised. >> I think we'll find out what happened to you, Tim, medically. And I think we'll find out if the fire was set afterwards to cover that up. Now, we have five or six agents down here with current police department. They're they're doing their research. They're looking into the information they have from other people. And Tim might have been quiet towards you, but he wasn't quiet to other people about his relationship problems. He talked about the issues you guys had going on. So, I'm going to get that side. I'm going to get the one side story. I don't think it's going to be the full story, Barbara, but I'm going to have to accept those facts because those people are telling me that side. And I put it with the facts that I see at the scene and I facts I see at the autopsy. I'm going to have to add all that up and see what it looks like. It's heavily weighted that you're at fault here. You can't get past in reality what's going to come out of this case, right? Do you want to out. >> I don't know what's going to come out in this case. I didn't you do anything. >> You started the fire. >> No, I didn't. >> I set the candle there. >> And the candle didn't start the fire. >> Then I don't know. >> Yeah, but look at it from our standpoint. >> I know that. >> Right, the fire starts moments after you're gone. Your neighbors are over there trying to pound on the window. Tim's not responsive. Your dog still lives, but Tim doesn't. >> Yeah. I don't know why the dog lived. I don't know why this happened. >> Right. And I think on the inside I think you do. And like you said, I can guess, but I we're sitting here trying to put things together. I'm trying to understand and put myself in your shoes. I want you to understand where you're coming from in this situation. I want to be able to put your story out there, Barb. I I want people to understand what happened. We owe that to people. >> Right. >> To leave this room with the truth, cuz the truth's going to come out, and it's going to be my evidence only. And that's where I need I want more. >> I'm not going to sit here and say I killed my husband. Just because I might be off 5 or 10 minutes or whatever. I did not >> And and I I think the investigation going to show otherwise, Barb. I'm confident in that. I wouldn't I wouldn't sit here and tell you that if I wasn't fully confident in that. I think the doctors, we were at the autopsy, so we know he has strong concerns on what happened. You know, I looked at Tim. I saw the autopsy. I spoke with the doctors, and they have some strong concerns about what happened. I have some strong concerns about the stories that you've given, cuz they changed. I think that it's not I think when it comes out that the fire started and and you leave and you drive away, that maybe you weren't You know, why those neighbors have to be outside, right? Um why did that like screw things up? Because you didn't leave at 6:50. You left at 7:15. Okay. and I mean that will tell us too when you're down at the bank. The ATM's going to have a camera that shows what time you got your money out. The cell phone records going to show where you're at when you get the phone calls. So, I think everybody's calling you and I think you're scared to answer. >> No, I wasn't. My phone was not where I I got text or voicemails today from Saturday because of the night I did some kind of update. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Because I'm like, how did I miss seven voicemails? And they're from like Saturday. >> You know, you get called by your daughter and their house is on fire and you don't even call him to see if he's okay. And you don't call him because you know he's already dead. >> No, I didn't. I was just trying to get a hold of him. No. >> No, that's exactly what somebody does when somebody calls and says, "My house is on fire when I left and I know my husband's in there." >> And I also called the fire trucks and everything else was there. Because that was something that Kate had said, "Mom, there's a fire at the house and they're there." >> You know, if we got a reminder around what's going on. >> shut my phone off anytime during that time, it was to try to get the reception to be better. Cuz sometimes when you shut it off, it'll reset. >> So, that's what it's going to show me. Is that what you remember now is maybe you shut your phone off after you >> To reset it, sometimes I do that. >> So, did you just not turn it off then? >> Because I had the GPS. I was yeah. Or just, you know, checking Facebook or whatever. I don't know, but I know I couldn't get a connection. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And sometimes that helps. Like I said, I've been meaning to order a new phone now for weeks. >> Yeah, and I think that that's probably not going to be the truth either on on the phone situation. And again, I I'm going to tell you those are records we're going to have and we'll have to argue that. I'll I'll take what you say and we'll look at the records. Those are fact-based. Information, right? I mean, they're the companies own if you will. That's kind of like medical exam. It's kind of like our agents with the fire marshal. They're the best at what they do and they're able to tell me what fire started and how it started. And the insurance company's going to tell me that his life insurance is out. Mortgage people are going to be able to tell me that the house's mortgage insurance was out. >> Was part of the escrow? >> I I understand that and those are all things that help us understand maybe why somebody wanted to do this. You know, and I think when they find out how exactly Tim died, it'll all make sense to us. And I think we'll have all those results pretty quickly. And then I think we're going to sit back and probably going to say, "Well, you're right. I guess I can't say anything. I don't know what else to say. The fire didn't destroy That's going to come back to you and and then it's just going to be evidence. And then it's just 1 + 2 = 3. Case closed. We know that this happened. >> Okay, so you've made up your minds. Can I please leave? >> You're free to leave. It's not going to change things though. >> I know. It'll just prolong it to another day. >> What's going to happen? >> I don't know. I just I don't know what to tell you. I don't >> What am I supposed to tell her mom? I can't ask her. >> I don't know. >> What am I supposed to tell her sisters? >> His wife I don't know. >> What happens when it comes back that maybe he was poisoned? >> I I don't know. I obviously don't have any answers that I don't. >> That's cool. >> Um at this point I'm going to seize your cell phone and you don't have your vehicle right now depending on where Third one. So I'll need your cell phone. >> You want my purse now? >> What's that? I'll seize them right now. Your wallet will be signed here. >> Immediately after making that rather embarrassing exit, Barbara attempted to harm herself and was admitted to a hospital for psychiatric monitoring. Once more, her son and niece were brought in to speak with police and now they reveal that Barbara's story has started to change. Ultimately, Barbara was found guilty of murder and arson and was sentenced to life in prison with an additional 20 years. Despite sending numerous letters to her children, they have decided to remain no contact with her and remained in the care of relatives. From everything we were able to find, they are thriving in their careers and early adulthood. We truly wish them all the best. Thank you for tuning in. Besides subscribing to help us make more videos exactly like this one, you can also listen to all of our crime podcasts over on Spotify. And before you go, check out one of the craziest cases I've ever covered right here or one of my newest uploads right here.