There's there's an activity or reference to breath play, breath control uh that is accomplished through very common obvious can be choking, can be closing off the nose, nostrils, can be uh rope around the neck. It can be. Uh, >> on June 25th, 2014 in Wisconsin, Steven Zelich was brought in for questioning in connection with the deaths of Jenny Games and Laura Simson, who had died as a result of restraint during sexual encounters in 2012 and 2013. Spoiler details are in the video description, and the full results of all charges in the case are laid out at the end of the video. the hotel you claimed that the incident, one of the incidents may have happened was in our jurisdiction, the jurisdictional boundaries lie with us. So that's why we're out here. >> Bring it into >> We're going to try and make it a lot more short and sweet. Um, and then what we'd like for you to do is to take a ride with us back to the city, point out the hotel just so that we can confirm, >> right, >> we're in the right place. Um, are you are you okay with doing that? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. Okay. I just want to emphasize, I'm sure you heard from these guys that ultra cooperative, what you know, whatever you need, I'm going to >> absolutely appreciate that. And kind of just to rehash here, um, you were right, Miranda, you understand your rights. Yes. >> Okay. Um, that this time you have waved the set rights and you are willing to speak to us about what happened. >> Correct. >> Okay. Um, Ken, as we're talking, I'm going to probably jot some notes down. Um, Dr. Bat and Pat might as well, but uh, it's just so our heads to write our reports. They're just refreshed as well. >> Absolutely. >> Why don't you start to tell me about I guess the incident that may have happened here or in our jurisdiction in Kenosha. >> Well, I guess I'll do the short version. We went through extensively a couple of times. uh their first night uh when I think it was Wednesday. >> Wait, that was a marathon evening. Um >> Wednesday, >> Wednesday. Uh long long day, well into the we hours of the morning and and um but uh um regarding Jenny, regarding the hotel there, and I I believe it's after looking at a map, they had a Google map today, I believe the one we're going to go to is uh the Comfort Suites. Okay. right near the truck stop. Um I think that's where that's the one where we we will be going to but that's certainly the area but uh that's the the hotel where the first incident occurred. >> Okay. Do you remember approximately when that occurred? [clears throat] >> Uh they have it uh they have it in in conversation. I think it's u uh late 12 or early 13. I'm not sure. I think they have it better identified. Um it's it's hard to pinpoint exactly. Okay. I know. >> But um >> do you remember if it was like summer spring or if it was winter fall type thing type? I think it was um I'm not 100% sure. I'm not 100% sure what we discussed time frame. I know the second incident was November of 13. Okay. Um, like you said you they had given you a time frame. I'm assuming that was Jeff and >> Jeff and Carrie from the FBI and Gil from the state. >> Does does August of 2012 ring a bell as the approximate time frame? >> That could be that could be >> accurate. Yes. I think it was I think through the discussion. >> Sure. that that was um pretty much determined to be pretty accurate. >> Okay. Tell me, you you mentioned her as being Jenny. Um tell me how you met Jenna. >> Jenny was meant online um on a website um initially on a website caller me. >> Is that c o l >> m e? Yes. >> Okay. And uh that is a uh uh meeting say but that's BDSM related. That's um what does BDSM stand for? I'm sorry. >> That's a kind of a alternative bondage discipline submission dominance type of u type of website. >> Okay. Um, >> so you meet her on the website and >> we Yeah, we talk and you know she's got a profile. I had a profile and at some point either I don't recall it or I first maybe approached her or she approached me but uh nonetheless we started uh conversing back and forth on the website. >> Is it it's like a social networking as well? Yes. for it and she had she did she go by her full name or did she go by >> No, she went she went by her uh a handle, you know, you create a handle or a name and and we I didn't know right away, but we um >> I believe it's uh through yesterday's conversation. I think her handle was >> uh Princess JMG. Um and Princess and then capital JMG and I guess that's her those are her initials. Did you know what her last name was? >> Yeah. >> What was it? >> Uh, Gomez. G O M A Z. >> Do you know how old she is? >> I want to say at the at the time she was uh approximately 19. >> You know, >> and where was she from? >> Uh, well, initially it was out west. It was Oregon. And what stuck in my mind was Eugene, Oregon. >> Okay. So, how does she how does she make it to to Wisconsin? >> She she flies she flies in. >> Okay. >> And and let me just for full clarification, you know, she was 19 and I probably made initial contact on colony with her. She was probably 16, 16 and a half initially. Oh, so you had like a two to three year relation. >> Well, we a period of time and then uh she was 16 16 and a halfish and then there was a period of time of no contact at all. A couple years >> and I guess as it turns out she wanted to she was going to school. I think she went I think I believe she went to like a junior college >> type thing and then um she recont you know a good period of time of absence you know maybe a year to two years >> okay >> during that time so that's where you know you have the age difference she's 19 >> and then so then we re connect u contact wise at that point Okay. So, at some point in this, you end up um or she ends up wanting to come >> for you guys to meet. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Where was that? >> Well, she flew in the Mitchell Field >> from Oregon. I I want to say Oregon, but I believe it could have been Vegas because I believe she had a week to two week vacation with friends or whatever. She I think she was in Vegas and then from Vegas she was coming to Wisconsin. >> And then do you pick her you picked her up at Mitchell? >> Yes. >> Do you remember what airline she was in? >> Not specifically. No, I don't. Um, do you remember if when you picked her up if it was uh during the day or in the evening hours? >> Um, it would have been maybe early evening or late afternoon. It was still laid out. >> Then in August it would have been >> late. >> Um, so then what once you guys meet um what happens? Well, we meet and then we That would have been We would have met on a um It would have been a Friday. Would have been a Friday. >> She flew in on a Friday. Yeah. >> And you picked her up. >> The arrival would have been on a Friday. >> And you picked her up in >> at Mitchell. >> At Mitchell. You drove? >> Yes. >> Your car? Yes. Your car or what car you had at the time? >> Yeah. Uh 2002 uh Saturn. >> What color was that? >> Wait. >> Do you still have that car? Uh well I have it and it's now impounded somewhere here. >> Okay. So it was the current car that you had in. Okay. >> Okay. So you pick her up and then what? >> And we we uh drove to uh drove south. My intention was at least initially hotel um and uh I'm not hugely um familiar but familiar enough with you know say like highway 20 and highway 50 down sharing. >> Sure. um broad stop and that that general area and uh they had a number of hotels there and so that we had picked one of those hotels um north of the broad stop. >> Okay. Um so you go right from the airport to the hotel. >> Yep. Right to the directly to the hotel. Uh I think if there was any stop or I don't believe um you know any food stop or anything like that. I think right to the hotel. >> Okay. Did she have any um belongings with her? >> Yeah, she Well, she had a a suitcase or two. >> No, she had a a pink suitcase. Pinkish. Um and possibly another uh another bag, another, you know, smaller suitcase. >> Okay. Was her intention and you're speaking to was her intention to move here? >> I think overall, yes. Yeah. I think it was uh her intention was going to be long term >> with you. >> Yes. >> With a you know with a with a um you know foundation with this type of BDSM type of relationship. >> Okay. >> You know that was the that was the premise. >> Okay. Now when you say that what um what do you mean by that? Well, that's I don't know how familiar you guys are with BDSM and all that, but it's it's a it's a dominant submission type of control hierarchy type of basis, you know. I mean, uh some people see some of the accessories and some of that, you know, toys, accessories, and then they see and they don't understand exactly what it is. uh it can be uh certainly sensual sexual based but that's >> generally not even the uh focus. Okay. It's more of a um type of interaction um um leadership follower dominant submission type of dynamic uh with those type of various different tools and toys and uh you know where uh depending on the couple or people involved it can be sexual or nonsexual and you know it covers a wide variety of you know activity. >> Okay. So what when she was coming down here what what was your guys relationship going to be in that? >> I I think her intention was her intention was uh full-time and that was probably the discussion we were having full time submissive to you. >> Yeah. And she was going to be here permanent and it was going to be a kind of a kind of a submissive all the time 24/7 type of >> Okay. But she would reside with you. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I think that was definitely what was discussed and I think that was definitely her understanding. >> Okay. And that's just through your guys' conversations on the internet. >> Yes. >> Did you guys have obviously had conversations on the internet kind like the messaging, but did you guys have direct phone contact ever? Like as far as you were able to hear her voice, she was able to hear yours. >> Yeah. I can't you know I was asked that before and I can't recall. We certainly were communicated on the uh >> like an >> website instant messaging and the site itself you could send what would be equivalent to an email message back and forth. [clears throat] >> It also has a chat feature which is like instant messaging. >> All right. >> And then of course uh uh instant messaging that I would also utilize would be Yahoo. >> Um and the phone conversation with her. I was asked that and I cannot recall. I don't recall if we did any phone actual voice. >> Okay. >> Prior to meeting. >> Okay. >> So, >> so when she came to Mitchell, how did she know who you were? Uh well, you know, I was waiting, you know, at the concourse and everything and and I think based on, you know, uh your picture on the profile and we had, you know, I had seen her and I, in fact, I had actually seen her uh uh like on cam >> on the computer, >> like a video chat. >> Yeah. And or at least she had I didn't have a video, but she had a cam type thing, so I was able to, you know, see her on occasion. >> Okay. All right. So, once you guys go to the hotel room, what what occurs in the hotel? >> Well, the the short of it, I want to give you the short version cuz boy, we talked at length. Um uh the short version is was Friday night. Uh Friday she arrived. We stayed Friday night and Saturday and Saturday cuz the checkout was uh going to be, you know, like Sunday 12ish or so, whatever the normal And uh so we we spent sat Friday and Saturday there. Um you know even I think Saturday during the day we even went u uh east all the way to the lakefront. Um, and we I think on the way back uh we had uh dinner on the way back there's a Perkins restaurant. Uh >> I'm sure >> y and stop there and and uh and in between that time was u yeah there was there was u this interaction you know general interaction nothing nothing too serious or significant. Um, I guess you could call it partially a get to know you period, you know, a little bit little bit casual. >> Um, >> like part of the the BDSM, you mean interaction? >> Yeah, a little bit of that. Uh, um, kind of mixed with you would call normal. Um, we call vanilla. Vanilla is a reference to nonBDSM. >> Okay? you know um and uh so then that's Saturday spent the day had some uh interaction um physical interaction Saturday night uh BDSM related and uh then uh probably Sunday morning again knowing that uh checkout's going to be at 12ish or so then we had early in the morning we uh at u u a so-called you know some play or a session these are all references these terms that BDSMP use and then which ultimately got very out of hand and u a huge tragedy um but uh the short version of and I really we went you know through this extensively >> sure last night and today um there was Uh there's there's an activity or reference to breath play, breath control. Uh that is accomplished through very common obvious can be choking, can be closing off the nose, nostrils, can be uh rope around the neck. It can be uh some people are so advanced they they almost they do hanging, you know, it's it's all related to breath constriction. >> Okay? And many times the motive I guess for that is or the basis for that is again control. Um many times the uh person receiving it enjoys that too almost kind of a I'm hardly an expert but kind of like an auto erotica type of effect. Um and uh ultimately that Sunday morning she she was uh well I was using rope and uh ultimately um there was constriction and then it would release and various touching you know and she and ultimately I got very probably very uh excited. There's no tight there's no doubt there's an arousal. There's an erotic sensation >> and uh at at while this was occurring um at some point it became evident um that I don't think she was breathing anymore. And then I also and this was explained um um and caused by the rope. There's no question about that. You know, no way to there's no other cause possible. Um that she uh and you know they asked one question I was asked how do you know she was you know expired or or passed away or not breathing? Well, one one of the first uh signs were uh she uh bodily waste you know so she you know >> sufficated defecated not a large amount but defecated and uh and uh uh put her on the floor and you know it wasn't long thereafter and I you guys may know the term I I forget the term um um that last you know breath that expelling of air Um, it was pretty pretty uh apparent that there was no breathing and and this went way, you know, past way too far. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but >> when you guys were in your session, was that was that on the floor? Was that on the bed in the bathroom? Where did that occur? >> On the on the bed. The bed of the U and I had drawn a little diagram. Oh, but bed and middle of the bed and then she was u um side of the bed closest to the bathroom and uh And uh so it's middle of the bed on one side closest to the bathroom. >> Okay. Now when you're behind her um do you have the rope then around you're holding the rope or does is it some where you put the rope around her neck prior to how how does that >> Yeah. Well, it she's well prior at some point I put it on maybe not initially and I think I put it on two maybe three times but I think two I believe two to three times around and uh um um and you pull constrict release constrict release constrict and that's very very erotic for a control-wise very erotic and can be very erotic for the person receiving. Um she was um you know you could tell uh there were appear and u um very very exciting, intense, that type of thing. And uh um ultimately my, you know, obviously my responsibility I can't lose control. It may be pleasurable and enjoyable, but it's far more important. I have I can't I shouldn't be enjoying so much to where I lose control. And I lost I believe I lost control or I lost sense. I mean, I lost the monitoring aspect of it. >> Okay. >> I think I started to enjoy the session and the activity to a point where I was no longer monitoring like I should have. >> You kind of described. So, it's around her neck three times. Then, >> two to three times. Yes. >> Then there's some tension, then a release, then a tension. So for you is the arousal kind of going up and down or >> maybe but overall it's pretty high only because it's it's the total control. It's the uh it's the actual act the breath play itself. It's the overall maybe submission and control overall. Um I will add just so you get a picture she's the rope is around her neck ball gag in her mouth. So you get that muffled sound. Um it sounded very pleasurable. Uh she'd bring her head back, you know, on your shoulder and and uh um it was it was it seemed to be very erotic and pleasurable for both. It certainly was, you know, for me, but it it appeared to be >> for her, too. >> Sure. >> And it's a control thing you reference for you, correct? Did she have any say in the whole thing or is that part of her >> submission to you or Right. >> And I've heard things about safe words like how does that how did that work in this arrangement? >> In this case, uh there there was no safe words. There are safe words in BDSM depending on the relationship. >> I've always uh thought and felt um and not use safe words much if at all. On the other hand, I always also thought that I was and well, let me let me preface before I answer that. Uh, I started enjoying BDSM probably age 19 or 20. So, it's really more it's kind of been a lifestyle lifetime thing. And but to answer that specifically, I never have used the safe words because I never had a problem not keeping control monitoring the safety and well-being of anybody that I had ever been with. And although this breath play is one of if not the certainly one of the higher level activities >> just by the nature of you know the breath and >> absolutely >> and and then the obviously the repercussions of >> something going wrong or the oper the chances of something going wrong >> but u so no breath play was used or no safe words were used and uh uh that um uh and I don't know if the safe word uh would have been an issue in this case. Everything seemed to be fine until towards the end and then I you know must have well I did I must have gone past a point of monitoring. The failure in my part is the monitoring or not realizing >> and uh you can't do that. Look at where I'm sitting talking to you guys because of it. Um >> did she have any other than the neck and the gag? Did she have anything else? Any other bound or >> Yeah. [clears throat] Um gag mouth gag uh the rope which was attached last and wrists handcuffs on the wrists. Feet were legs were free. >> Okay. rope attached last to the neck. >> I mean third I mean it was handcuffs and gag. >> Okay. >> And then the third element was the the rope. >> So it's progressive. >> Yeah. We I mean we started with you started with the handcuffs and the gag. >> Okay. >> And um uh and the rope in this case came into play because it was going to be um breath play around the neck. And breast play can be like I think I mentioned. Yes, I think I mentioned it earlier. It can be the choking and the you know nostrils and the rope hanging. It can come in different forms but this one was this case was rope around the neck. So >> now was she handcuffed and and back as well? >> Yeah. Yeah. Behind the back legs free or ankles legs free. >> Okay. So after you You felt that she had passed away. >> Yes. >> What what do you do thereafter? >> Well, that's the that's the moment of truth. And believe me, these questions were asked already. That's the moment I have to decide. You know, that's I either I can either call 911 or, you know, call management, call the hotel, call somebody, get call police, call rescue, call, you know, or panic and do what I did. H um and uh took her instead of reporting it, put her in one of the suitcases, closed the suitcase, packed up everything, went downstairs. Uh I don't recall if I went I don't recall if I went and got a luggage curt. Well, I I must have. uh or if we had it in the room or maybe just falling in the hallway, whatnot. I brought a luggage cart into the hallway. Um stacked all the luggage, including the pink luggage, which had her in it now, and rolled it out to my car. >> She had two suitcases. What did all of the stuff in the pink one fit into the Did you take everything of hers with you, or did you leave stuff in the hotel? No, I took everything with me and and put it either in her second uh um bag or piece of luggage, I think, which was smaller >> and or in my any room in my pieces of luggage. So, but everything left the room. >> And we mentioned that she defecated. So, that obviously would have left some sort of mess. >> Little bit of Yeah. Not Not terribly large. Okay. Um, and I went to the bathroom and I took uh either a small bath towel or washcloth type thing uh hot water and I cleaned it up, you know, cleaned it up. Uh, I think I rinsed out the uh rinsed out the uh towel and uh I think I left it there for housekeeping, you know, with with the other towels. >> So, no sheets or anything? No, no, it was it was more it it it it came out uh I think a little bit ran down her leg a little bit and a small amount on the carpet. Okay. Um who who paid for the hotel room? >> Um I I did. >> Okay. Did you pay with uh bank card, credit card, cash? I believe I paid cash and uh I know in discussion um you can go all the way back to 2007 and after you know law enforcement career I went into business 2007 I had a massive business failure and when the real estate market nationally collapsed >> and I had a title and mortgage company and those both just evaporated. Um and since that point uh uh I had to well because of that for a period of time had to live off credit card probably for a year. Uh business startup and credit card massive debt. >> Mhm. >> So um all credit cards now at this point I don't have a credit card. I have one Chase card, Chase Bank. That's a debit checking card tied to my checking account and I use that or cash. Um, so a lot I use a lot of cash or that, you know, but no true credit card. >> Okay. >> Have you did you get the room under your name or was it under her name? Do you recall? >> I believe it was under my name. I believe. >> Um, >> have you do you use your real name >> like when you get a hotel? Okay. So, you don't you don't use >> no full alias or something. No. >> Okay. Right. >> All right. Um, so after you unload the luggage in your vehicle, >> take or my vehicle or whatever and uh >> uh drive home and we believe this is August. Yeah, Augustish. >> That's what we were told as well. like you had, you know, >> and that's warm. So, uh, she was taken, uh, the suitcase was taken, of course. Uh, now what do I do? You know, I I'm still in the I have no idea what I want to do or what I'm going to do. I have no idea. Uh, she comes in, uh, the pink suitcase comes into the house. Uh, I take her out. Well, actually, I empty the refrigerator cuz my only option is I how how long do I have with the heat of August before, you know, you're forced to make a, you know, make a decision. She was put in the refrigerator. And really, my thinking, I think, was to buy time and figure out what I'm going to do. putting the refrigerator inside the suitcase still or >> no no outside the suitcase um uh naked outside the suitcase and of course you can imagine you get the shelving and all that I have to take the shelving out >> and now you pretty much have the empty shelv refrigerator >> and put in there door closed And seemingly problem solved. Well, not I'm making almost light of it because it's not a problem's not solved, but it's it gives me time because I the temperature issue. >> Correct. Sure. >> So that's that is where she stayed for quite a while. Um and then in further discussion um the refrigerator is empty, the the you know shelves and all that's out and I [snorts] can't use the refrigerator. So you know a lot of uh a lot of uh fast food or eating at work or whatever, but I can't use my own refrigerator, you know. So >> in retrospect, it's ridiculous, but that's exactly what happened, you know. Sure. Um um >> and she stayed in that refrigerator. That was in August of 2012, >> right? >> When was the next time she came out? >> Very um well, semi- recently. Um November, November of last year. November of 13. >> 2013. >> Yeah. November. Yeah. And and >> that's ultimately um No, I take it back. No, no, correct that. I I correct that. Um uh correct that. Um, November of 13 or November of 13 approximately is when I take her out, put her in the suitcase. Back out with the second suitcase. >> Is it She went back into the original suitcase, that pink one. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. And then in the uh trunk of the car now because that's now being winter November 13 into this past winter. >> Okay. Now you're saying in the trunk with the other suitcase. What what do you mean by the other suitcase? Yeah, the suitcase is a second incident that occurred um no uh November Novemberish uh early November of 13 in uh Minnesota. Okay. What >> without getting into details about >> that incident, what what occurred in that incident? Very similar very similar very similar basis, very similar BDSM, very similar uh circumstances that happened that occurred in Markchester, Minnesota. I talked to the detective today and uh early November I think the first week. Um, and that was the first incident after Jenny. That was that was the first inerson contact BDSM related. It was Jenny and then second girl Laura. >> Okay. So, you you didn't have any more BDSM meetings with other females? No. >> Basically in that year, >> correct? Or what would it be? 8 months, 9 months? >> Correct. for 10 months. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> So, when you say very similar, are you you're saying that you use the same the breathe breathe control? >> Breathe control. Probably a little bit more elaborate than the second one. They did rope and then I think I did utilize some choking and some all the elements. I think it was a little bit longer session. Okay. and a little maybe a little bit more extensive or a little bit more um I'm looking for did a little bit more things or utilized a little bit more techniques or tools so to speak. Um, and it was probably a little longer and it was definitely intense and um very similar um in circumstances um although um basically very similar. Now how do you I guess how do you you had said that you know you have to monitor breathing of the submissive person right >> um >> and when you go how do you monitor I mean what do you practice things with different people and then you just kind of know or you just kind of it >> I think it's a combin it's really the the most important part has to do with me the dominant person can't get so caught up in the scene or the enjoyment or whatever. You have to basically keep your own control. A different not the kind of control we're talking about the person, but you have to you have to kind of separate yourself and always monitor. You can't fully enjoy. you have to, you know, you you can't allow yourself to fully enjoy or to fully lose kind of at the moment the monitoring aspect and that's really what I was referring to. >> Okay. >> And that's what didn't occur. Yeah. So, by you trying the the new technique with the nose and going further into the breathing control aspect, you don't really know until you you use those techniques on that person >> and you >> and then you just monitor that person throughout >> overall the session. >> That is correct. And what creates the pro an additional problem is if while I'm doing that because if I'm just doing that it would be okay because I would still be monitoring. It's it's getting caught up in the enjoyment in the moment to where you're not any longer doing that monitoring. you're just caught up in the in the actions and the fun and the enjoyment and the erotic aspect of it and you're letting it get away from you. >> So during the course of this session, are you both nude or cuz are you nude, she's not nude? >> She she is and I'm not. >> And that's that's kind of common and that has to do with the >> dominant submission thing. Okay. And then getting caught up in the the arousal aspect. I mean, are you are you maintaining control while masturbating? Are you maintaining control while you know to where you can get caught up in your own masturbation ejaculation thing? And that's where that you kind of get out of control on the other end. Is that how >> it it can it can for some um >> sex sexual arousal is not always part of it. Um uh or masturbation or or erection even. It certainly can occur. many times does but that amazingly is not the focus or not always the uh central point of it. >> Um for myself the best way to describe it is uh in in this instance there was no sex involved. There was no masturbation. There was no ejaculation, but there was still incredible arousal and enjoyment and um eroticism and lack of control and all of that things even but but sex by that definition did not occur. >> Okay. So, >> no, I understand. I I appreciate you explaining that that to me. >> Is that similar to what happened then with with Jenny or was Jenny >> Same thing. There was no no sexual intercourse, no uh no masturbation on my part, no anything. I was closed, she was naked, very similar in that respects and the dynamics were very similar. Um and uh you know to you know to some people who may not fully understand it, it's the control or the obedience or restraint and all those these BDSM dynamics make it erotic. Sure. >> Um and uh uh ironically I don't want to speak for other people but just add what I know about BDSM and that whole lifestyle. Um there's a lot of it big chunk of it that is not it's sensual erotic but it's not sexually driven necessarily. >> It's more the control aspect. >> Yes. And then [clears throat] so it's more of a control aspect from the one end and more of the submissive aspect the other roles if I'm not mistaken can be reversed. It's not always a male being the dominating one. >> It can be either or right. It's the role but not >> not uh limited to male dominant or female submissive or whatever. It can it can change or it can go certainly both ways. >> Okay. But in your in your case and you're speaking to we'll stick with Jenny specifically. >> Sure. >> It was your male dominance. She's female submissive. >> Yes. >> Um and that was the the intentions on your entire the relationship sessions that you guys had and that was the premonition she comes to here. >> Yes. Yes. >> To 100% >> to Milwaukee essentially. >> 100%. Yes. >> Okay. So after the both suitcases are in your vehicle, what what occurs I guess from November to I guess to the point where we are now. >> Yep. We're uh well uh I still didn't really have a plan or a clue or a resolution. Winter gave me the temperature to you know can you imagine this? cuz I I step back and think this is it's even a part of me it's like you're kidding but can you imagine all winter long home to work work to home I mean trunk full for all winter it's >> both right >> yes this one >> yes it amazes me and I was living it it's crazy but >> that was it with cold weather it was weather driven plus there's two I the second one um I couldn't not do anything with in inside, you know, only had a small apartment refrigerator and no other way to, you know, uh, change temperature. >> Sure. >> So, yes, to answer your question, both in the trunk through the summer or through the winter, um, into the spring and until recently, or yeah, pretty recently. Um uh and then ultimately they were uh it was getting warm out. They had we had a little stretch of about a week of little warm weather >> and that's about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. We had you know maybe less than a week. It hit it hit 80 or you know upper 70 80ish maybe for a couple days and that was about it. And uh but that was enough to where it's uh uh basically forcing me to uh do something with this. I can't keep both suitcases in the trunk all summer, >> right? >> Were that something that you came to the conclusion of or were you starting to notice that other people were >> Well, that that occurred and and I'll get to that. I was starting to notice first because there was as temperatures generally rose >> absolutely >> inside the car. Uh I had to use deodorant and spray. I would notice I'd have to open the windows and >> and it was it was slowly building still though at a point where outside >> the car you wouldn't notice. >> Gotcha. >> Um and then uh uh there was an incident. I'm sure you know maybe you guys have read through reports or talked to other guys. Uh there was an incident at my place of employment where for the first time it became noticeable outside and uh no doubt uh in my mind that uh that incident of course prompted me to >> Did someone specifically say something or did >> Yeah, I was walking out uh the building and the guy I was passing a guy and he made a comment. And um um of course just by his comment I knew what he was talking about. You know, he had no idea whose car that was. He just said, "Oh, the white one over there." And you know, he didn't make a big deal out of it passing to me. He mentioned it. I'm in a security uniform, so that's why he mentions it to me. [snorts] >> It didn't take, you know, we're passing and I'm a distance away from it. And um I said, "Okay, you know, I got in it." And my intention, I was heading out there anyway to go uh have a smoke break. >> Mhm. >> And uh uh but uh that was the first and that was again during the warm weather, the first outside person to notice. >> What did he say? >> Well, he said there's an odor over there or he said, "Well, he said there's a strong over odor odor over there or something like that." Well, I knew immediately what he was referring to, you know. Um, you know, and then my understanding is I don't know exactly who, but he went in and must have he must have told some other people, you know. Um, and I went and uh uh at that time I went to to a like an off our overflow parking lot where we do our smoke breaks and everything. And then I sprayed some deodorant and you know it was it was obvious that uh that uh you know it was it was warm outside and this was going to be a an ultimate problem that had to be dealt with you know and and um so ultimately uh uh because of it being forced to by the weather we hours in the morning. It was a weekday you know uh and uh I ultimately uh went out and disposed. Didn't really dispose or attempt to conceal too hard, but took both suitcases and uh put them on the side of the road >> out here in Worth. >> Yes. Do you know where you were? >> Uh no. I mean, I have no idea this area, you know, whatsoever. I mean, >> how did you end up here? >> Uh just by chance. I just had I took uh from Milwaukee, I took highway uh the old Rock Freeway 43. >> Mhm. Uh what is it? Bo I think [clears throat] is the closest to the statewide going southwest. And then I even went on um south of 39. I was short distance into Illinois. Um went a couple miles maybe into a visitor turnaround or visitor center type thing. went to the bathroom and and then came back and uh on the way back we just was really looking for, you know, a a dark place off the off the main freeway and didn't know the area at all, you know, and uh ultimately where they were left was just dark and quiet and um really had no idea where I was. I mean, I knew in general I shouldn't say I knew I knew it was a freeway. I knew in general where I was. >> Do you know when what day that was or what night that was or even a ballpark? >> Well, no, because not off not out of memory. Uh, I think it I think through discussion and when it came to light, I guess when it was discovered publicly or by law enforcement out there or here, um, it was in the we hours. cuz I know it was like 1 2 3 in the morning when I uh stopped and dropped the luggage off. >> Okay. >> And I want to say and this is through discussion with the other guys. >> If it was discovered I think on a Thursday or Wednesday or a Thursday type of thing, I'm sure it was probably >> Monday night. It was only a day or two after that. It was >> And you left I mean you left from work, right? to to start heading this way. >> No, no, no, no. This was No, no. You know, I work 6 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. >> Okay. >> And this is like 2:00 a.m. in the morning. >> Was it the same day you had that incident with that guy, though? The same day the the coworker had noticed that smell. I guess it would be the following day. But that same >> Yeah, that same evening maybe. >> Right. So later on, but if it's 1 or 2 in the morning, obviously it's going to be the next day. >> Right. Right. And I'm thinking I'm thinking that that probably prompted me to take that action and do that. Yeah. >> Why why during that time frame from November after the second incident to you know you drive around with them in the car were you ever worried about man if I get stopped by police or if I get stopped? >> I was all the time. all the time. You know, I was always worried about um you know, very common because I was, you know, control for a long time and and you know, the common question, you know, I mean, I had nothing to hide other obviously what was in there. But in general, you know, the common question, hey, you know, you might search a car or you know, I mean, they do that just to random checks. >> Yeah. See what's going on. >> Yeah. Or uh what else uh certainly came to mind? I was worried about uh an officer coming and maybe uh you know uh uh like a canine hitting on it, hitting on the odor for some reason. I don't know. I don't know if the drug dog would have picked up on that >> or certainly you know an investigative uh cadaabver [clears throat] dog would have you know but uh >> those things cross my mind. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> Were you ever stopped in any not the last two years ever? >> No. No. Did um were any of the was Jenny in particularly um were you guys um um in whether you guys um do you use alcohol, drugs, um pills, anything like that? >> Not while we were together. No. >> Um did you know of her having any history or anything? Did she ever indicate to you? >> I think she enjoyed what through conversation. I think she enjoyed some uh uh various drugs, specifically I know probably marijuana. I I recall she would uh she did a little bit I think she was a little bit of a free spirit. I think she uh probably organized these gettogethers. I don't know what they call them. I got the bright lights and the music and that they had these >> like a rave type >> kind of rave type thing. And I think they would move around and it wasn't always her responsibility, but I think she would uh or had arranged a few of them, >> you know, or got involved with the organization of them or whatever. So, >> um >> So, do do you feel that your actions do you feel that your actions ultimately killed her or what do you think happened to her? >> No, I think I think Well, yes. I think that ultimately the I think the u u breath play and the actions. Yes, I think I was responsible. Yes. Um I wanted to make I want to make it clear and I I went over it with the other officers. You know, I think it was uh for the reasons that I've described to you >> versus, you know, because you know, one of the detectives said, uh, well, did you know, did you sit and plan it? You know, was it premeditated state? Did you sit and plan it? And I said, no. I said, this is my interpretation of what happened, >> you know. Um, so hopefully that answers, you know, your question. when you're having the sessions and I guess particularly with Jenny um you just described to me like at that arousal point where I mean initially you have that control where you're pulling and you release it pull and release it pull it release it does it get to a point where you're >> pulling harder or is it more of a longer >> I think I think I think both I think both there's there's pulling and releasing and you know and then there there can be you you know there can be hair pulling and touching and you know it's a whole control thing and then back to the uh breath play um that being a very big activity type of activity >> but yeah it's it probably I think no question in my mind intensity and duration went too long >> okay >> and at some point went past the point of a person, you know, it cut off breathing too long. >> Do do you think that after that happened initially, had you called 911 or had you called for someone to help, do you think that would have saved her or helped her out or do you think that >> I don't think so. I don't think so, but I don't know that for sure. But um um it certainly is possible. But I I really don't think so. I think that that I was too too long, too hard. Um but again, I'm not I just I just can go with what I think. I'm definitely not >> right. None of those >> EMS type person, whatever. Uh >> and we're thinking that it was her not being able to breathe, not like there was no like did you hear like some trauma to her body as it happened? >> No. >> So you're pretty I mean >> I feel it was the the cut off of the breathing >> and the Yeah. the playing with the in and out, in and out. >> Okay. >> Did she uh did she appear to like fight any of that? And I I obviously I'm new to a lot of this, so I understand there's probably some sort of you hit a nice, you know, you hit different peaks and valleys of some sort. >> Yes. And as you're describing that, what you're describing is the sound or the muffled it and >> sure >> um and then um so I think in that session goes that way and it's all positive and it builds though it also builds the eroticism and builds the excitement and everything and then at some point I'm going to say I'm going to say that probably they had she's fighting but I'm not noticing that's the problem at that at that highest level that's the problem cuz I'm thinking >> at that point everybody we would all >> fight that if you're >> it's not being released enough and then there's at that point where you know there's going to be some I'm [snorts] not sure exactly what kind struggle she could do. >> So, I guess to to paint a picture here, she's almost >> Yeah. No, this is the bed. >> Mhm. >> Edge of the bed right here. The chair where I'm standing here. She's got >> She's actually just supporting her stature through her knee. Kind of like a Yes. Yes. >> So, as we're tightening, is her body >> What is her body doing? I guess >> well during the earlier stages nothing noticeable nothing noticeable um because she's supported and I'm holding her and but she's controlling her head you know her head and I hear the sounds and it's all seemingly all very good >> at the end I'm pulling and I can tell there's I don't see or notice any struggle or fight. But what I notice and I described to the other guys too was a limp. At some point it went limp >> and um limp and then uh some defecation and uh down her leg a little bit on the floor and then well those two combination I think I had very bad sign. Were we able to continue to support her weight as it went limp and hold her in that same position for any period of time? Do you know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> A body losing, you know, kind of going out or was she able to kind of stay in that position longer or >> Yeah. it it limp but because she's you know knees um I'm thinking that you know if she were standing then it would be dead weight >> but I think she's on the end of the bed and I think that's still supporting her a little bit >> and resting against you a little >> kind of back. Yeah. >> Okay. So her back's pressed against your chest. >> Yeah. And uh uh well but I still can feel a difference. I still can feel a difference. So that's why I describe it as limp. It's different than it was earlier, but because of just the physical positioning, it's not like she went limp and fell on the floor immediately. You know, she's still kind of propped. >> Was there a time frame of when you first felt her go limp or that extra body weight come? was how long did we still have pressure before we realized that we should let go of the you know what I mean? I would like to think not too not too long uh that I realized it's you know when I am realizing limp or a difference and then at the same time the defecation that's a big that one was a big indicator um I don't know exactly how long >> okay >> and that's where the or my lack of control and euphoria or maybe just, you know, not being exactly in the moment of where I should have been. >> Yeah. >> What kind of What kind of rope are you using? >> Oh, it's uh I originally purchased it uh probably online somewhere for BDSM supply stores, and there's lots of those. You wouldn't believe online. You know, you would believe it. Uh but it's a >> it looks like a it's a wound uh rope, but not not real thick, not real thin. And it had uh it had um stitched or sewn ends to keep the end from fraying. >> Cuz normal >> uh why you just how would you describe that rope? Like a like a No, like a real pony pony ponytail or a braid braids or hair. The braiding of a rope, >> right? Right. Uh if you didn't have that, it tends to open up on you. >> Um was it I guess my naess and bondage. Was it black red? >> Yeah. No, it was it was a it was a light tan or very light brown. Uh and it was um I would describe it as not uh you know, you might think thick. It wasn't that thick. It was kind of almost uh wasn't real thin but was smaller in in size. >> Now that rope in particular, do did you or do you still have that rope? Is did you dispose of that rope? Um >> Oh, I didn't uh Yeah. No, I didn't dispose of u I took it I took off uh I I took it off from around her neck and uh took her uh took the ball gig out. Um >> what does a ball gig look like? >> The ball gig is like a red rubber ball. >> Okay. with uh in the middle plastic black uh leather straps. >> Okay. >> Buckles on the back. >> Do you still have that? >> Well, I've got I've got uh now the specific same one. I've got uh or they have law enforcement has um the law enforcement was over at the house in the car and all that, but they they have um uh I've got I probably have a couple ball gigs there. Um the rope um they found the rope the the exact same rope. It was the exact same rope. Uh u may have been uh I don't think on Jenny. I don't think on Jenny on the other Laura. >> Okay. >> Um a similar incident, but I didn't take the rope off. >> Okay. >> Um whereas Jenny, I did. >> You didn't take the rope off of Laura. >> Right. >> Okay. >> So, uh so when Jenny was in the suitcase, was there any thing on her at all? I don't recall. I mean, certainly no ballgate. Uh, no neck rope. There may, you know, there may have been uh may have been some rope. And if there was, that was the rope used. That was the type of rope that >> But you And what about the handcuffs? You said she was handcuffed. >> She was handcuffed. um during the incident, during the session. >> Okay. And then did you remove those handcuffs or you kept those on there? >> I I believe those were removed. >> Okay. And where would those be at? Do you know? >> Uh they would be in uh I had two uh two uh suitcases. >> Did you have multiple handcuffs or just one side? >> Yeah, I think I had multiple. >> Oh, yeah. [clears throat] you know, there's a there's a larger suitcase maybe in a smaller suitcase um full of so-called toys and accessories and things like that. [snorts] >> Um so after your November incident, were there any other incidents up till this date? >> No. Okay. So you had no other meetings, occurrences, >> no >> sessions with anybody? >> No, not at all. Um, did you have any other sessions or occurrences that occurred down here? Did you meet with people I guess prior to Jennings? So, prior to 12? >> Yeah. No, not uh No. Um, not in the Kosher scene area or anything. That was a was a one time not even not even 100% sure why that location was picked, but I know it's familiar. I familiar with the broad stop. There's hotels in the area and >> Sure. >> Excuse me. All right. Well, I'm going to go get um Jeff again. Okay. >> In the 2012 Wisconsin and 2013 Minnesota cases, Steven Zelich was charged with firstdegree intentional homicide in the death of Jenny Games and later with murder in the death of Laura Simson, plus hiding a corpse. On January 25th, 2016, he was convicted of first-degree reckless homicide and hiding a corpse in Games's death. And on February 3rd, 2017 of seconddegree murder in Simson's death. On March 30th, 2016, he was sentenced to 35 years in prison and 10 years of extended supervision for Games's death. On February 3rd, 2017 to a consecutive 25 years for Simson's death. And on October 13th, 2017 to 10 more years for hiding the bodies. As of the most recent verified information, Zelic is incarcerated.