Tim told me to tell Braonn to keep him off his name off of it. One, because Tim wasn't there. He couldn't be put on it without him being present. >> So, why wasn't you there? >> Because he was at work. >> I'm done for. >> Give me a minute. On October 29th, 2018, at the Wayne County Sheriff's Office in Lions, New York, Charlene Childers was brought in for questioning in connection with the deaths of Joshua Niles and Amber Washburn, who had died as a result of a double homicide. Spoiler details are in the video description, and the full results of all charges in the case are laid out at the end of the video. >> You have any questions for me? >> So, if you you haven't met, this is Tom Bird. So, he's the lead investigator. He's assigned to soda. So that's you met with Roger and and Joe when you spoke. So Tom actually oversees kind of like entire investigation. So that's why he's here with me. I know your attorney said it, but the biggest thing and the most important thing is that you tell the truth. If I think at any time, just to be honest with you there's any [ __ ] we'll leave. I've got plenty of other stuff to be working on and doing. So there's just no time for any of it. I've been on the case since the shooting happened. So is he. So there is nothing in this unless there's something new like your attorney said you can offer that didn't come out in this investigation that we don't know. So if I just need you to be completely honest cuz like I said I'm getting ready for this trial and if it's you and him or just him that doesn't matter to me. I I'll try both of you together. I just need if you're going to show up, you got to be completely honest and 100% truthful because it I have no value in you lying. There's nothing there. I gain nothing. You gain nothing. Like your attorney said, if we don't work, there's no promises here. We work something out, great, wonderful. If we don't, we walk away like this. Never happened. Okay? This is recorded. So, we can't mince your words. We can't make anything up afterwards. You know, this is the contents of this meeting is what's going to come out if you do end up cooperating. So, if you lie at all in this, but we still sign you up to cooperate, they will have this and they will know what you've said in this room. But that's only if we work something out. If you don't, it's like this never happens. Okay? But my biggest thing, like I said, and just the you won't get any [ __ ] from me. There's none of it. Okay? So, you come complete, you come truthful, that would be great. If you don't, we'll get up and walk away cuz we both have a [ __ ] ton of work to do, you know? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. I don't know if you anything, but >> No, just I mean, everything that could happen in here is going to benefit you. It sure doesn't benefit us to be very honest. >> Well, if it's a right thing, it's >> if it's the right thing, right? >> Like right thing is is benefit of itself. >> Definitely going to benefit you. >> Um, >> so >> yeah. So I don't Let's just start at the beginning then with how what happened on October 22nd happened on October 22nd. >> Do you want to start at October 22nd or >> I want to start before. How did we get to October 22nd? Oh, >> um October 22nd before Let's see. Well, um I want to say it was a Thursday. Don't ask me dates anymore cuz um but >> dates right now. >> Are you talking the Thursday before the 22nd? >> 22nd is a Monday. >> Yeah. >> Okay. was 18th that I took Braun to go pick up the vehicle from the airport in Amarillo, Texas. Um then when we came back from Amarillo, we stopped at his house. He left the vehicle in front of his house. I drove back to my house which was in Sunray. Then Tim ended up picking me up from my house, took me to go get the car. We parked it or we picked it up. We parked his Jeep at his friend's house on Bailey Avenue where he used to live and was staying at at the time. Um then >> why are you renting a car? >> At first he told us that it was for the um because his car wasn't working and that's what he told us. But then it ended up coming out to I'm going to drive to New York. Okay. Why? Oh, I'm gonna shoot Josh. >> When did that happen? >> That conversation? >> That conversation? Uh, >> what? >> It was the 18th night, 19th morning. It was like midnightish. >> Can Can I ask Can I Can I participate? >> Did you mind? >> Um, so let let me let me just be clear. So now the car is rented on the 18th. the the Viet. It's not a car. It's rented. When was the conversation about renting the car because his car wasn't working? Was it the day before, the day of? >> It was like the week before he was having troubles with his starter. >> And who was present for that conversation? >> It was just me and him at first. And then he asked Bronn if he would rent the car for him. >> Where did the conversation occur? Um, it always happened at our house. >> The the one your house at this point, right? Cuz he's allegedly living on Bailey Avenue. Okay. >> House at Sunray. >> Yes. Yes, sir. >> Okay. So, the initial conversation is that he's renting a car just because his car is not working. >> Yes. >> When does it When do you find out that that's not actually what's happening? >> The night of the 18th after we rented the vehicle. Okay. Um, then it was the >> So, so go ahead and explain to us the night of the 18th at your house. >> I know you guys went and got the car and brought it back to your your house, Sunray. Go ahead and explain to us the the discussion you had there. >> And well, he basically he packed up um this tub. I don't know what to call it, but a tub. It was uh like this big, about this high, gray. And he had like his soft armor, his hard armor, um magazines, um his AR, his shotgun, I want to say an extra 9 millimeter that he always carried on him. >> Extra 9 millimeter belonging to him or >> Yes. Belonging to him. the one that um in the video of him getting um questioned by the officer when he had the accident that he said he had on his side. That's the one that's his um it has a flashlight on it. It's all black. Um it's a Glock. Um [sighs] so he was getting all that stuff ready, extra clothes. Um, basically he said, you know, I know we're getting a divorce. And I was trying to make it to where, look, we are getting a divorce. We're not pretending. We are getting a divorce. And he didn't want it. He's like, oh, can we do anything about it? Blah, blah, blah. You know, why can't we be together? because my kids are more important than my marriage right now. Like, so he was pissed off and he left and he said he was going to go shoot Josh. I hadn't believed him because he had taken another trip to New York saying things like that. I want to say it was in like August, July, August, somewhere in there. He took a trip up to New York in his Jeep and he came back and nothing had happened. And that's why, you know, I knew he wasn't going to shoot [clears throat] him. >> Mhm. >> All right. I can I So, last the week of the eth, right? Let's pay attention to this dates here. the week of the ETH um is when you had a conversation about renting the car, >> right? >> And what did he say the week of the ETH about the reason he needed the car? >> He said he needed it to get back and forth to work cuz his daughter wasn't working. >> Okay. So, >> can [clears throat] I one second? you. >> Is there a reason why Tim didn't want to put it in his name? I mean, if it's for work, you would think that he'd want it in his name. That way, he could at least claim it on the taxes, you know, who have the miles and whatnot. >> So, basically, he's asking nicely. It's kind of [ __ ] right now. Like right now I'm kind of getting ready to get up and go because it doesn't make sense that you would rent a car for him for work purposes but he wouldn't be on the like there's an affirmative conversation that we know happened and we have evidence that happened of keeping him off of the insurance. So you know before you go to that airport before you rent that car to keep him off of the insurance. So right now I call [ __ ] and I can tell you right now if that doesn't change we can go because we're not even like to a real point yet and you're we already know that >> you're not going to get that you were you were going to get that for the reason >> yeah that that conversation didn't happen when you came back >> and there was a conversation between you and Brun about making sure Tim wasn't on the insurance and we have the cell phone stuff certainly so I'm not lying to you like I said no [ __ ] Did you come completely honest or we're leaving? I got stuff to do. >> Um, well, honestly, that did happen. And I Tim told me to tell Braun to keep him off his name off of it. One, because Tim wasn't there. He couldn't be put on it without him being present. >> So, why wasn't he there? >> Because he was at work. >> I'm done. I'm done. [ __ ] No, >> we're done. Okay. Give me a minute. Okay. Um it's like good copy and I'm trying to like be good cop here kind of too. Um they, you know, Braun already um already uh did this process. >> Mhm. and has played out and got like a like a sweeter deal. So that's where they're getting all their information from whether or not it's accurate on it and and it doesn't matter to me. Obviously what matters to me is making sure that I can do all that I can to not have them like all aggressively yelling and stuff which is that's what they do right and that's okay. Um, you know, it's on me. I don't know. You know what I mean? I know what our defense is and I know those things, you know, but I don't know what Braun is going to say about these meetings, etc. I will say this, it does not make sense that he's at work when he and and the insurance is not in your name, the stuff is not in your name, and you bring this other guy there when they have Braun and you and he having a meeting about him going to do it before the cars rented. >> That was all a [ __ ] Like >> I know that, but it would be if nothing happened. The problem is it happened. >> I understand that, >> right? And so the fact that that you know that happened makes it real and not [ __ ] because he did it obviously. >> Mhm. >> Right. So that's the issue. That's the issue. Um they're not again I'm not telling you what to do. But I don't you know they're coming at you kind of hard which is their discretion to do that. Um but we're at the 11th hour. You know what I mean? And so they're not, you know, they're not allowing minimization if if they even perceive that. Right. So the story doesn't start from the 22nd. I think the story starts from when you come back from New York after the family court thing. >> After the family court thing. Now it's back in August. >> I understand that. uh what what how this just doesn't come about that this guy is making this decision to do this. Understand? I mean, it's a lifealtering decision for everybody. What led up to it? >> The divorce. >> Well, I understand that. But, you know, again, you know what I you know what I'm getting at? Like they they not only do they think you're involved, they think you're the unionist for this stuff. They think you're the coordinator of these things. Um, I'm not sure that that's true or not. You know, obviously my my role is not to say that stuff, but you know, we're here. Um, you know, they they're kind of starting at the end >> in in my opinion, you start from the beginning. And again, I'm not kidding. I It's you know, like to Drew complete, you know, something from somewhere else, etc., etc., all that stuff. So, you know, I will say this. If this is all Tim, and it could be all Tim, and I will claim it's all Tim regardless, then we have nothing to give, right? Because, you know, Tim did it. Obviously, Tim went in the house, committed the burglar. I know that, but I drove him there and he wore a red scarf when he went there. You know what I mean? So, it's not There are parts of this. Obviously, they they think you're the ultimate part, but looking for a plea on the ultimate part as an accomplice, right? So, we go in there tomorrow, but and this thing falls apart. We go in there tomorrow. Obviously, we won't have a deal anyway, but um you will have to admit to being an accomplice to the murder murderers. You will have to admit to that. So, you know that that's obviously part of this if you want that. You know what I mean? I'm not sure you do. But, you know, I got to go back there and try to bring them back in. I may not need to do that. You know what I mean? But, um, you know, that's what just happened. You know, and like I said, it's not terribly unusual that it happened that way, but you know, they're putting the pressure on you and they don't believe you. And and again, that's why I didn't I can't say wrong or right. That's why I kept myself ignorant to a certain extent of your position on this thing because I don't want to I don't I don't want to be on the wrong side of it, >> right? >> You know what I mean? And that's okay. That's that's the point. So tell me, do you want to start over? You want to walk out, too? I mean, what do you want to do? >> Is it really worth it? Like with the eight years that they're offering, >> you know, I can't answer that question. You know what I mean? like the I I get that um you know I get that and like I said we talked at length about that yesterday. You know the the difference is the end of it. You know they she obviously and he think not only that you did this but think that they can prove it. Okay. And that a jury will believe that. Okay. I may or may not be able to stop that, distract that, create conflict, create doubt, um challenge various pieces and put you on the opposite side of that stuff. Okay? is I set um the the part of this that I don't think I will be able to defeat the gun case because it's easy and silly but it's real and the conspiracy and and the conspiracy as I told you is 8 to 29 and determine and it's up to parole to to decide when you would be released. The gun case is the same thing. Hypothetically it could be consecutive. So the short answer is yeah, it's worth it. >> Yeah, it's worth it. >> I don't know. >> You know, um, you know, but I don't, you know, you ask me what I think, >> right? That's what I think. But I'm not, you know, it does, but it doesn't, you know, what I think doesn't matter. I mean, you know, I rock and roll. I mean, I I do I do what you ask me to do and I try to create scenarios that in some capacity benefit you. It's not the greatest obviously. Okay. Um but you know it's also not the worst. Um and so that matters and as I said the the difference in my opinion the overwhelming difference is is at the end is at the end. You know how are you going to be viewed at the end of the sentence? and that they don't care about that. I care about that. You know what I mean? That's the, you know, when they have to make a decision about, you know, what what if anything should happen to you. This makes a big difference. This is the difference versus, you know, you you know what we you were convicted after trial, so to speak. We have terrible lawyer. You know, I mean, that's what that's what they say at the end when you know the it's denied and you go 24 months and then it's denied. You go 24 months and it's denied. You go 24 months and it's denied. That I can't promise you what's going to happen one direction the other. I I'm telling you, I can assure you this. What I do know is that on the appeals this may this is a we have to argue this or you're released on this. >> So that's what I mean by it is worth it because it's it it affects the end. That's what it impacts. So whether or not that's enough, I can't answer that question. I'm not you, right? I'm not you. Um but I I don't I also don't want to be um futile either. You know what I mean? Like I don't you know I mean again I mean I do this at every level. You know what I mean? Whether or not this the ultimate case or it's a burglary case, you know, or it's a domestic case or sex abuse case. I mean that those are all things and I do this a lot. Nobody knows about it, but I do it a lot. Um, you know, and it's different when I'm here than just investigators or DAs or whatever. >> Um, you know, but >> and I participate. So, you can say, I'll show you this stuff and let's clarify that issue because I for it to work for it to work, I need those three things. We got to be we have to be the impetus for those three things. And if we're not, then we're just protecting ourselves while implicating them. That's the that's the true part. That's not untrue. He probably was at work, right? He he did say, "I'm going to go do it." Right? Those are all true, right? Are they incomplete? They don't think so. Does it give them information they can't get from anywhere else? No. They've got that from Braun. And they also >> Yeah. But they also, you know, said start from the beginning. um starting from the very the beginning and >> well I I I get that but I I think assuming they're correct which I don't assume you know this guy just doesn't out of the blue say I'm going to go do this. >> No. >> So that's where the beginning is like where is the plan to go commit the ultimate offense? It's not like they went to the the house to to to to steal candy. I mean it's the ultimate thing. It's a there's nothing bigger. Nothing. Right. So that takes a long buildup above and beyond uh you know the snap decision number one and number two. I mean that's a hell of a lot of offthe- edge stuff. That's big. Okay. And you know the beginning is not a week before. Can't be because it's too big. It's too big. Like it takes me six months to plan for vacation, right? I mean that's this is more than that right and they they got this piece they have this piece they have this piece and they have that guy cooperating they got first and it stuff doesn't that that he's at work stuff doesn't make sense because he texted the week later and said bring me to the airport to go get a go get a car number one number two but you can rent cars 24 hours a day from the airport >> this stuff that doesn't make sense he's at work >> the timing I I understand that. But but you understand their point. I mean it's >> I mean I do. But I mean when I'm telling you he's at work. He was [ __ ] at work. >> I understand. I believe you. I mean again it's a matter. So true complete. Yeah. You know you tell me you want me to call ask them to come back in. I don't think they're I don't know what they're going to do. And I don't care >> if it benefits you. We do. [sighs] If you know I say let's you know sometimes they do like a bullet question answer session you know what I mean like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom which I actually like because it's kind of easier than like all right start >> yeah that's >> like okay I don't all right what what start I was born in you know 19 92 you know what I mean all right where do I start Right. >> It's easier for me if they would just ask me questions. >> Okay. You want me to ask them? >> If they will, if they won't, then you'll be answering anyway. All right. So, my understanding is that you would prefer us to do it question answer style. That way, you have a little more direction in what we're talking about and looking for. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. Um, so we'll go back to the the car rental. Okay. When you before you go and rent the car with Braun, why are you renting this vehicle? because we are told that it's for his vehicle that is broken down and not working. The starter is broken. So that that's initially why we first rented the vehicle. Okay. So was there a conversation in your garage between you, Tim, and Bronn before the rental of the car? Yeah. Okay. And you're telling me that during that conversation, it wasn't that the story was going to be it was for him for work, but that the plan was for him to come to New York. Is that what you're going to Is that what you're telling me? >> No. >> No. So, what are you telling me? >> That it's the story. So, at that point in the garage, you come up with the story that we're renting the car because Tim's car is not working and he needs it for work. >> Okay. And so, the real understanding though in the garage at that point is we're renting the car for Tim to come up to New York and kill Josh. >> Yeah, >> that's the understanding, right? And you even look up the reservation for the rental at that point. You don't go get it, but you look it up and figure out where you're going to rent it from. And all of that stuff happens that night in the garage. Um, I had made a reservation I think a day or so before and then we ended up canceling that one cuz it didn't work out for times and all that crap. >> Okay. >> Um, but then I made a new reservation that night >> with Bron was still there. >> Yeah. Well, everybody was still there. >> All right. And so all three of you know at this point that's why you're going to rent the car. >> Mhm. So you and Bronn, you go and then get Braun a week later basically or a couple days later, right? We're not we're not doing exact dates, but a little short time after that, you and Braun go. It was his birthday, right? Bra's birthday. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Told you. Been in this since the beginning. Bron's birthday. You guys go and rent the car. >> Mhm. >> Say yes. Yes. >> Okay. And that is when and there's a text between you guys saying you're not putting remember not to put Tim on the insurance or you're not putting him on the insurance. He says yes. Okay, good. I'm just making sure we're all on the same page. >> Yes. Okay. >> I believe so. >> I saw we saw that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so because that I mean let's put it this way. All of you were in law enforcement in some capacity. Correct. >> Yes, ma'am. >> All right. So, like it's been talked about, you guys aren't just going to go willy-nilly into trying to kill somebody, right? If you if this is really the plan, you're going to do the best you can to protect yourself, right? Like, what was the texting app that you were using? Uh, I don't remember what it was called, >> but you guys downloaded an app specifically to be able to have >> Well, we did that because um we were me and Tim downloaded originally because we were separating and um he didn't want the Texas Ranger. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Um like looking up our texts or whatever. >> Okay. So that was the original reason we downloaded that app. >> But was that the that was your primary means of communication in talking about any of >> Yes. this. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> So yeah. >> Can I So >> you asked that we're all on the same page. That was from Tim. >> That was her to Braun when they rent the car to make sure that heard >> right. It's keep him off of the insurance. You're going to keep him off the insurance. Something in that line. He says yes. off the of being a driver. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then he says, "Okay." And you're like, "Good. Just making sure we're all on the same page." >> Because that conversation had already happened in the garage, >> right? >> That Brown's renting the car. >> We hadn't had the conversation of keeping him off of it. >> Okay. >> That's why. Yeah. And then I was told to ask him that. So, >> by whom? >> Okay. So you get that first car and Bron all that stuff for the transfer of it. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. After he gets that car, what's Tim doing? >> He came to my house, which was in Sunray. >> Mhm. >> And he loaded it up with all of his gear. Like I said, the soft armor, hard armor, magazines, the AR >> tub or whatever. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um the shotgun. Um monsters clothes. >> Monster energy drinks. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Um so what's the plan? You've got an arsenal, energy drinks, and clothes. What's the plan in this rented car? He was going to come up and shoot Josh. Okay. >> He didn't tell me how. He didn't tell me any of the details. Okay. >> Cuz he said, "It's best if you don't know." >> And at this point, him coming up to do this is for you to get your kids back. >> Yes, ma'am. >> And in some way, shape, or form, end up with you guys being back together because you got your kids back. >> Yeah. >> Okay. But your end game is getting your kids back. >> Yeah. Regardless of if you and Tim work out, you need your kids back, right? >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. How many times did you come up to New York roughly in those family court proceedings after they were taken from you? >> Um, well, I want to say July 19th was our first court date. So, I was up here, I want to say, for like four or five days. >> Mhm. >> Um, I didn't see the kids then. Then we had court again 14th. >> Mhm. And I had the kids for roughly four hours. Four or five hours. I had to take them back at 8. Um and we went to my uncle's house where you guys picked up the gun. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Jesse, right? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And we hung out and then we went to my aunt uncle's in sodas and we had dinner with them. You saying we Tim? >> It's just me and the kids. Okay. >> Um Tim had flown in the day after. I want to say it was like the 16th. I'm not sure. Um but he had flown in to help me drive back to Texas because with dealing with the loss of the kids and everything else, I was shaken. Um, so he flew in to Rochester and helped me drive back to Texas. >> Um, >> when was it? >> I want to say it was like the 15th or 16th. It was >> in the August family. >> Okay. >> Um, then in right after uh we got back, I told him, "Have your lawyer draw up the papers. We need to get a divorce." Because I told the judge, I'll divorce my my husband if it makes it to where I get my kids back. >> Like my kids are my number one. >> That's why the divorce papers were dated in September. >> Uh that's he was supposed to file it in August, but he did file it in September. >> Yeah. >> And so originally though, that's not that wasn't like a genuine thing, right? It was we're going to have these papers and do these things so I can get the kids. >> For me, it was a genuine thing. for him it was, "Oh, we can we can work it out after you get the kids back." And I'm like, "It all depends." >> Okay. I was going to say because remember, >> Yeah. >> I spent this morning regoing through both of your and Tim's records. So, I know your conversation. >> Yeah. >> So, I know it wasn't just him saying that originally. Both of you were in the same plan. Yeah. >> It was we'll file, you'll move out, we'll look like these separate lives, but we're still together. But for New York's sake, we're going to be apart so I can get my kids back. I mean, that that I mean, that's your first go-to. I mean, clearly >> not you. I don't think you The first plan was kill Josh. The first plan is get divorced, look separated, and get my kids back, >> right? >> But then you came back up in October, right? >> I came back up in September for uh I want to say I got I got here Friday, early Friday morning. It was like 3:30 in the morning on Um it was sixth October is September September September 7th. >> September 7th. Yeah. And I had a funeral to go to for my best friend's sister that had passed away. Um so I drove up here. I left Wednesday night and got here Friday morning around 5:00 a.m. >> Um, I stayed until Saturday, had the kids with me, spent time with them at Casey's house. Um, did life treatments and all that, took him back. Um, and then in October, that was the next family court thing, right? It was October. Yeah. No, it wasn't a family court thing. We didn't have another family court thing until it got moved until um I want to say November originally, >> but then it got moved again. >> And then it got moved again to January 7th. >> Okay. So, what happened in October? >> October I came up I got here on the 3rd cuz I flew and I left on the 10th. Um, I had the kids from Friday until Monday and we went to cornhole tournament and had a party at the house and a family gathering and just kind of hung out. >> Um, Sunday we went, did we go? He went somewhere. His dad's house, I believe. >> You said his or >> Casey's >> um Casey's dad's house. hung out there for a little bit and watched movies and came back to the house and um and made dinner and normal house activities just hanging out with the family. >> Um and then I took him back Monday around 5:00. Me and Casey went out to Captain Jackson ate wings for his birthday and then uh I left on the 10th. Mhm. >> So you come back though and in pretty quick time this plan comes to fruition. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So what happens in this October visit that you're coming back? I mean this is this is this is the honest these are the things like I no matter how we go through your text messages or have other people testifying why something happened. Clearly, you were triggered because you got him home. A week later, there's a meeting about getting the car. Then we're renting the car and Tim is up in New York at 12 days later killing Josh and Amber. So, what happened? My trigger was my son. >> Okay. >> Um on the 5th when I picked them up, I'm sitting there and my daughter always has legs coming from his house, Josh's house. So, I'm taking the straightener and I'm straightening her hair, putting the heat on the eggs because Amber had just done um the combing. So, I'm putting heat on the eggs to kill the eggs. Well, my son comes into the bathroom where we are and I'm like, "What's up, bud? How's you know, how's it been going?" And he just breaks down in tears, balling his eyes out. My son doesn't do that. Does not do that. and he balls his eyes out saying how his dad has treated him like crap, how he doesn't want to be there anymore, how he doesn't feel like he's loved it all, how he just wants to come back home with mommy. And he's like, "Mom, please steal me. Take me back home with you. Steal me." I was like, "Dude, I can't." I was like, "I'll get in trouble for that. I can't do that." Like, we you got to just stay with dad until mom can get you back. >> Mhm. and he balled for about an hour straight. And anytime I was um every time that I've taken them back to their dad's house, both my kids have started balling cuz they don't want to leave mom. They want to come back home to mom. They don't want to live with dad. Living with dad for the summer is cool. It's fun. It's happy golucky. But staying with them for all year round, my kids didn't like. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So >> that happened that Okay. So then you get home and what happens when you get home? >> I told Tim I was like, "Look, it you just need to [ __ ] do it." I was like, "I'm done seeing my kids cry. I'm done seeing all this bullshit." >> When you say do it, what do you mean? >> Kill them. Just get it done and over with. >> Cuz there had been the previous conversations about it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. And what And what happens from there? >> Um we start planning it out. Um he was like, "Well, what should I wear?" And I was like, "I don't know. Go to Ross and buy something or go to, you know, Marshalls or >> when we ask him." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Meeting in. >> Yeah. So, >> you say it and he agrees. >> So, the next step is figuring out, >> well, what about the gun? because we know it's not his gun and we know and we know you know it's not because >> when you were up here you were already saying stuff about it. So yeah, what gun was it? >> It was a gun from Sunray Police Department that he had taken >> after he had already retired >> or resigned, whatever the word is. >> Okay, tell what do you >> um Well, he told me that he went back into the police department because he still had keys. Um he went back into the police department and grabbed a gun that he knew was in there that wasn't logged because >> just goes slow. >> They didn't >> um they didn't log it. >> Okay. >> Um they had a really sucky system, I guess. >> Was they the police department? Um >> who was in the police department? >> At first it was only Tim um Officer Gray and Officer Flores. Do >> you know Gray's first name? Derek and Flores is Joseph. >> You know these people? >> Yeah, they've interviewed him. Um, but he has I want it was a black 9 mm. Um, I don't know what kind. >> Mhm. I just know it was black and it was normal cop issued handgun. Um, >> with some carry. You're familiar with guns? >> Yes. Um, >> did the sun? I want to I want to say it was a block, but I'm not 100%. >> So, he told you he went back and took it. Did you ever actually see the gun? >> I saw it a couple times, but it just um sometimes I couldn't tell the difference between his handgun that he carried and that gun because um they both had the flashlights on it, but they both had, you know, black and if you're not like looking at the gun, I can't really tell the difference. Mhm. >> Um when So it was after he resigned but before when we kind of have a window for that like May to October, right? >> Yeah, that was back in like uh I want to say June at some time. >> And at that point, who's acting chief? Uh Joseph. >> Okay. >> And but Tim still has keys to the PD even though he's resigned. >> Yes. All right. >> What date did he resign? Um, go back to I want to say >> June. >> It was considered June 3rd or fourth. >> Okay. >> That they >> that they um put down on the papers cuz he still got paid until then, right? >> He stopped working. May 17th was his last day that he worked because that's the day that he got arrested. Okay. So, he tells you he's going to do that. When's the first time you actually see like he tells you he's going to do it? When do you see the gun? >> Do what? What are you talking about? >> Take the gun. >> Take um I don't know when he actually took it. >> Okay. >> He just told me he was going to. And didn't tell me when. Didn't tell me when he did it. None of that. >> You just The gun showed up in the house. >> Yeah. >> Did that gun have a flashlight? No flashlight? It did have a flashlight. >> Did have a flashlight. >> And I think at some point he ended up taking off the flashlight. Okay. Because it comes off. >> That's how you knew the difference, right? Did he carry that one without a flashlight? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And then was there an interaction involving Ron and that gun? >> Yes. Um >> when? >> Oh, [sighs] I don't know when it was. It was in October sometime, I think. >> October's busy. >> Yes, it is very busy. Um it probably in my text messages to Brun somewhere in the lines of uh is he okay? He was taking him back to his house to sleep. But um Timon had like a mental breakdown. He was pissed that I told him, you know, no, we're getting a divorce. We're not I'm not doing the whole playing. We're ending it. Um, >> what date? >> Uh, I'm not sure the date right off here without looking at the notes, but we went to Bron's house for that night. Yeah. >> Yeah, >> it was October or September. >> We talked about September. >> I don't know. I could be wrong. >> Yeah, it was sometime between the October se or August September area. >> September. >> Yeah, it's Yeah. >> Yeah. Somewhere in there. Um, he ended up having a mental breakdown. He, you know, we were outside in our garage talking. He started [ __ ] throwing [ __ ] in the garage. So, I walked into the house into my bedroom and sat down. Um, he ended up coming in and throwing the [ __ ] gun at me and saying, "Just [ __ ] shoot me. Just [ __ ] shoot me now. You know, I'm not going to live without you. Just [ __ ] do it." Blah, blah, blah. Just that kind of thing. Then he went outside and he had another gun on his side. He always had a gun. So that's the one we keep like that was in Kansas. That one. Yeah. Okay. Um >> that's registered demo. >> Yes, sir. >> Um he walked outside and all I heard was a bang and it sounded like a gun. So I went out in a franic panicking looking for him. Couldn't find him anywhere. And I'm like, where the hell is he? I walk go back into my house and out to my back patio and he's sitting there just calm, cool, collective. So I shut the door and locked it. He ended up coming in, getting his leaving his phone, his wallet, and his other wallet. He always carried two. One had like his um cop badges and everything else in it, and the other one was like his personal. Um he left those on the counter and ended up taking off in his Jeep. That's when Braun found him at the playground or the high [clears throat] school somewhere in there. I'm not quite sure. >> Um, and he ended up hauling ass and trying to get away from Ron. Um, he ended up coming back to the house and Ron opened up my garage door and came in and he's like, I have Tim, you know, he was not in a good state. He's drunk. Um, he was threatening to shoot himself. That's when Bron took the gun and that's the gun that was from the police department. >> Um cuz the next day after I get off work and Tim's off work, he comes back to the house and wants to talk and he's like, "Well, Braun has the gun and I don't think he really notice notice knows that it's from the PD so I'll get it back." But I was like, "Okay." and he ended up getting it back sometime that day. >> Again, that is that October. That's not October cuz you're I mean, you're 3 to 10. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? I thought we thought it was actually >> I'm not even sure. >> Okay, that's fine. >> So, all right, let's get back to the actual days and times then. So everyone's present in the garage. Well, you got to bring into this, right? So you've you and Tim have a conversation when you come back from New York. This has got to be done. I want my kids back, right? >> Then there's a decision to bring in to this. >> Bronn had already been um involved. >> Tell me about that. Basically, um, when we started when everything started going bad back in May, we kind of Bron was our go-to guy. He was, you know, the friend that was there for us. We could talk to him. And, um, so when we came when I came back in October, Bron had already known about Tim going up the first time and going to shoot Tim. um Josh, but he didn't and then he came back. >> Um >> can can I ask how how you said Brown knew in August? Uh how >> we had told him he said we were making he said he was making a trip and Ron already >> August in I want to say it was in August. >> Okay. >> August. Yeah. Because he had taken off. It was like two weeks at the end of August and his boss was pissed. and ended up taking him back and giving him a two week leave. >> Whose boss was that? >> Tims. He worked for Fredo Le. >> So what? So there was a conversation before that trip about going up and killing Josh so you could get the kid. >> It wasn't about going up to kill Josh. It was just like a general conversation. you know, let's freaking go after the cartel that lives in Cactus, steal their freaking money, get, you know, go out, kill Josh, kill Christina, and we'll just go live happy ever after in a compound somewhere. Mhm. You know, >> that was in August. >> Uh, it was I think it was before August, honestly. Or it might have been the first. God, I don't know. >> Okay. >> I can't remember. >> Take your time. It's important. I can't remember dates. It's all clumped together. Really? >> Okay. I'm sorry. Could you ask a pointed question because I think I'm getting getting us off track. >> That's okay. So, there is one attempt before he comes up in his own Jeep and doesn't go through with it and comes back. You come home in October. So, Brown already knows about this one attempt. So, when you're back in October and have the conversation, this has to be done. Tell me about getting Brun involved. >> Uh, he was basically just used for the rent car. >> So, he's in the garage when the conversation happens that we're going to say Tim need the story is Tim needs it for work cuz his Jeep's not working, but we're renting it for him to go up to New York. We're going to keep my name off of it. By me, I mean you. No Charlie on it. No Tim on it. It's just going to be Bronze renting it. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. And he knows all of that. And then the conversation happens in your garage with the three of you. >> Yes, ma'am. >> So, you make the reservation and then you and Braun go pick it up, keeping Tim off of everything. >> Well, he was off. He was at work, too. Yes, ma'am. >> But he's off of everything. He's not. >> Yes, ma'am. >> The car exchange happened. Um, tell me about the balaclava. >> The what? >> Mask. Do you know anything about mask? >> Okay. So he loads up his car with the tote, Monster Energy drinks, clothes, and he takes off on his trip. >> Mhm. >> Tell me about Kansas. He called me um Saturday the 20th at like 4:00 a.m. I couldn't do anything cuz I had to be at work by 7:00. Um he called me told telling me that he had crashed the car and he doesn't know what he's going to do. He was waiting for the tow truck and I had just woken up to I was like, "Okay, yeah, whatever. Bye." Click. Um I ended up calling him back while I was at work and I was like, "Okay, so what happened?" And he told me that he went to take a U-turn and he ended up hitting the cula. >> I'm like, "Okay." I was like, "So, get another rental car." Well, his name wasn't on the rental, so he couldn't get that exchange. Um, so we went through the process of me trying to see how if Bron could get him on the contract down here and or in Texas. Um, and all the places said, "No, you can't do that. Not without the person being present with their license." And it was just a big ordeal. So, I was like, "All right, when I get off work, I'll [ __ ] drive up to Kansas and take you to an airport. You can rent a car and be that." And he was like, "Okay." So, after work, I got off at 3:00 p.m. I went up to Kansas, which is was like a 5h hour drive. Drove him an hour back to the airport in Kansas City, I believe. I think is that where it was rented from? Enterprise in Kansas. >> Not in Kansas City. [clears throat] >> It was a big city there. I know that. >> Mhm. >> Um we he got the rental car. We went to the gas station. He drew out money from the debit card because that was another reason he left his debit card and both his credit cards with me. They were in the house. >> And why was that? >> That was so I could pay the mortgage. >> Okay. Um then >> so he left both of his credit cards and the debit card so he could pay the mortgage. >> Well, he left his debit cards be or his uh credit cards because they were maxed out. >> Okay. >> To what I knew. I didn't have any say in the credit cards. They weren't in my name. They were all in his name. Okay. >> Um the debit card he left with me because the mortgage I needed to pay the mortgage. So, we took I took him to the airport. We stopped at a gas station. He filled up my tank with gas. Then he drew out money for himself. I'm not sure how much. I want to say it was like 400 bucks and then gave me the card back and I drew drove back to Texas. >> Mhm. >> And then went to work. Um, I didn't hear from him again. I don't even know what state he was in, but he had called me and he was like, uh, he was asking me how I was doing, if anything's different, are we going to make up? And I was kind of like blowing him off like whatever. I don't really feel like talking to you. Um, and that's the last time I heard from him until I was I want to say I was in Illinois the 22nd of October. Mhm. Don't work. So, he calls you after renting the car in Kansas and has that conversation with you >> about making up and getting back together? >> Yes. >> Okay. How do you find out? Now, again, no [ __ ] >> How do you Cuz we know you're calling the school >> Mhm. >> for your kids and having Casey come pick them up. >> Mhm. before the correct information is out and available on the news. >> So, tell us tell us about that. >> Okay. Monday the 22nd, I was at work from 7 until 3. >> Mhm. >> I get home, I took a quick shower, got in normal clothes, did what I have to do around the house. I'm looking on Facebook and I see a news article on 29 Carlton Street. Or it wasn't, it didn't even say the um address, >> right? Um it said Carlton Street is what it said. A shooting in Sodus. >> Mhm. >> So I look at it and obviously I knew. Um that's when I started asking questions on what the address was. Um and people were like, "Oh, we don't know yet." you know, all the kids are on the lockdown at school. And so I called the school and made sure my kids were okay. Um then, well, you don't just do that though cuz you don't just call the school and say, "Are my kids okay?" You call the first time I did >> and then but you call back pretty like in succession. Again, we've got all this stuff in succession. You call back again and it's not just our kids, it's okay. Well, the first time I call it's, "Are my kids okay? What's going on? Do you guys know anything?" They don't know anything. Okay. [snorts] I'm just making sure I'm a mom from Texas. We hang up. Um, I made a call to Josh's mom and she told me that Josh was gone and I said, "Okay, so the other woman I guess is Amber." And he said, "Yes." I had no idea about Amber. Mhm. >> Um, so I call the school and I'm trying to figure out what's going to happen with my kids. I was like, because there's they're saying they're waiting for the grandmother to come from Niagara Falls to pick up my kids. And I'm like, well, my boyfriend Casey can come pick up my kids if that's the case and she can just pick them up from their house. And um, I never heard anything back. I kept calling making sure my kids were okay because that did they do they know anything? Do they know what's going on? They didn't know anything. >> And you're sure and you're certain on this order. So you call and ask once they're okay. You call Josh's mom and then you call back and start giving instructions about Casey coming to pick up your kids. >> I'm not exactly sure I'm okay. But because what I know what we can tell you is that that your calls to the school, you hadn't talked to you didn't talk to Josh's mom. You did not not at that point. You call ask there. Okay. And then it's pretty immediate. So even if you haven't talked to Tim, you have put together the thing even though there's nothing on. So you haven't talked to Tim at all. >> Not even a near secret text messages, nothing. >> But you see the story and you know Josh is dead. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Cuz that's what I mean. You're calling school. I understand you want to make sure your kids are okay, but you're setting up for Casey to come get them, [clears throat] right? Like jump. Like it wasn't I mean the school secretary and the police officer that worked in that school all say, you know, she it was immediate. >> Well, I had talked to Josh's mom. >> I know you talked to her because I've talked to her about your conversation. >> Yeah. And she's like, Charlie, you need to get out here ASAP. >> Mhm. >> And I was like, okay. So, I ended up calling my attorney for my child custody case. >> Not me. >> Not him. >> And not Megan Sh. Okay. Um, what's his name? >> From Canada. >> Yeah. >> You know, I don't practice that those people. >> Tyson's from Canada. >> No, it's not Tyson. >> Tyson. >> He's a nice guy. Joe. Who's he? >> Okay. Doesn't matter. Don't really care. Honestly, don't care. >> All right. >> So, where are your B? So, we're going. So, all right. Because one of the things is that we knew I mean pretty quickly everybody turns on to you because of these phone calls because it's highly suspicious because the news camera the news stories weren't even pointed at the right house um in the pictures that they were showing on Carlton Street. So, the fact that you call immediately and it's not just are my kids okay but it's setting up so your boyfriend can come get them would show. But I also have a text message from a woman named Joelle Greenwood that said, "Is it at 29 Carlton Street?" >> Right. But do you that again, no [ __ ] you know it's hypothetic, >> right? >> And you're calling the school and setting up for somebody else to come pick up your kid because you know >> Yes, ma'am. >> that the father of your kids has now been murdered. >> Yes. >> By your husband. Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. So, when is the next time you talk to Tim? So, you have this weird phone call in between him leaving Kansas and coming to New York where he asks if everything's okay, right? Is am I getting that call right? Yes. Correct. >> He calls you, his phone's off. We have that. We have those records. His phone's off. He's done and out of New York. And the first call he makes >> is to you. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. What is that phone call? >> Exactly like I said before. It was, "Hey, what's going on? I saw the Facebook and all this other um what is this?" You know, and I'm like, "It's, you know, Josh has been murdered. Amber's been murdered." Cuz in his head, it's okay. FBI is already tracking our phones. You know, they're listening in on our calls. That was always his suspicion. >> Mhm. So, that's why he was talking like that. And he's like, "Oh, well, I'm here for you. I know you don't want to talk to me and that's why he called restricted and um then he was asking if there was anything he could do and I told him just go to the house and take care of the animals for me and um I asked him if he was in Texas yet. He said no. And that was the last time I heard from him except for another call where I said um they were looking for a guy in a green hat and a black jacket with floofy hair and um that I'm still going through a custody case with Nicole and that was it. Yeah. >> So, the call from Tim to you from the restricted number >> was in code. You think that was some sort of code because he was believing that he's monitored? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Basically finding out where I am and I told him I was already on the road and when I said that he was like, "Oh, okay." So, I guess he was thinking he was going to see me down in Texas or something, but >> don't guess. Can hang on. Can I ask one more question? >> Did you have information that he contacted anybody else that contacted you about what had happened? >> No. >> Your dad, your uncle, your dad? Did he call your dad? >> I hadn't found that out until I was already in jail. >> Okay. Talk about that. That's when um my boyfriend Casey, he told me that my dad told him that Tim had called him and said that he was drunk when he crashed the car and that uh he was doing whatever he could to try and possibly get me back cuz he had seen text messages from me and Casey. >> Is that all >> from my knowledge? >> Okay. Well, we have your dad, >> right? >> Contact information for your dad, >> right? >> Um, in Kansas, when you go and rent the car, [clears throat] I mean, you call first, right? You try and do everything over the phone. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. And they say no. And you're not very nice. It's my recollection from talking to everybody in Kansas. So, you come up there and do it and hurt the car. At this point, right, everybody else from the outside is looking at this and going, "Give up. go back to Texas. But clearly at this point you guys like you're just in so far it's happening. What's going on? Because I mean anybody else on the outside goes you crashed your rental car. Your first story is up. Why? Why is he still going? >> Right. >> Why? Tell me. >> Cuz I was done. You know, 11 years of [ __ ] and abuse and verbally abusing and it was just I was done. So, at that point, you are determined that this plan is going to happen. >> Yes, ma'am. >> No matter what. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Rental car being total doesn't matter. You're going up to Kansas. You're getting him >> to New York. >> Well, I told him into his face. I was like, I'm getting you this taking you to the rental car. It is now your decision if you drive it back to Texas cuz you're not riding with me or you go to New York. >> Okay. You just said two different things to me. You just said you were done. There was no more after 11 years. And then now you're saying you gave him the choice. >> Well, those don't those don't add up because you're either up there. You're either up there renting him the car to get his ass to New York to get this done cuz just like you said, 11 years of all of this heartache and things you were put through, you were done. >> That's not the same woman that then goes, you pick. I'll either see you in Texas or you go to New York. Do you understand what I'm saying to you? Those are two different things. >> I understand. And I mean, I was done. >> Done. Cuz >> Right. The plan was to get Josh killed. That's it. >> Yes, ma'am. >> You went up there, you rented the car again. You got Well, you got Tim the ability to rent the car again, >> right? You brought the the card, you got the cash, >> you got him to the rental place, everything >> because there was it wasn't you can come home, come back to Texas or go to New York. was going to New York. That was it. That's the end game, >> right? No [ __ ] >> right? >> Okay. Cuz there's no way I'm driving however long it is to get to Kansas to give somebody to rent someone a car to give them an option to come home, >> right? >> Well, was it an option or was it like a threat? >> It wasn't a threat. I mean, it was a legitimate option, but it was, you know, more like, you know, at this point, yeah, I'm [ __ ] done. But he knows I'm done with him, and I'm done with Josh. And I'm like kind of throwing my hands up in the air. But at the same time, in my head, I'm like, you know, I really want you to go and kill Josh. But I did give him the option and he chose New York because he knew how pissed off I was and how much I missed my kids and I hated seeing my kids in pain and he was going to do whatever he needed to to get you. And you made it very clear your kids are number one and getting Josh out of the way and getting your kids was number one. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Charlene Childers was originally charged with murder, conspiracy, and a weapons offense. She pleaded guilty in April 2019 to first-degree manslaughter and seconddegree criminal possession of a weapon and was sentenced on June 27th, 2019 to a determinate 28-year prison term. As of July 2026, she was still serving that sentence and had a pending resentencing application under New York's Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act with a further court date set for October 14th, 2026. No reduction or release had been granted as of the latest verified reports.