But that's not what happened. He pulled a knife on me. And I'm having I'm trying to grasp this, but I'm having a really hard time the timeline wise somebody you you visually seeing somebody grab a knife, pull it out, and start swinging it. and you having the having having the >> on September 23rd, 2014 in Clay Elum, Washington, Joseph Andrew Richmond was brought in for questioning in connection with the death of Dennis Higinbotham, who had died as a result of a blunt force head injury after being struck with a board. Spoiler details are in the video description, and the full results of all charges in the case are laid out at the end of the video. So, obviously we're here to discuss the events that happened last night, right? >> Correct. >> What I would like to do is for you to start off telling us what happened nice chronological order all the way from then all the way up to today. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, my best >> Yeah. But I want to and what I'm going to do, Joe, is I'm going to take notes as we talk. Um, I'll make notes if there's certain things that we need to clarify or whatnot. I may interrupt you. Um, just for clarification purposes because a lot of times when people get talking, they start throwing pronouns, he, she, whatever, if we're talking about more than one person being there, which I know we will be. I just want to be definitive on who we're talking about. That type of thing. >> Okay. >> Fair enough. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, let's uh let's start from the very get-go. Um, Veronica dressed and I had come to a mutual decision that, you know, she needed to move move out. And at that point, I left my dwelling as well as she. >> When was this? >> Oh, man. I don't know what time it was in the afternoon. It was yesterday. It was yesterday. Okay. Um, >> it was like maybe one or so. >> One or so, give or take. I don't I don't remember exactly. and I went to my boss's house and got a truck and trailer to move her stuff. And she went to a friend's house. And when I finally arrived at the house, um I had another individual with me. Um her name is uh name Shell. I don't know her last name and but she's from Eastern correct. Okay. >> You know who who is the friend to Veronica? >> Excuse me. >> She went to Lonnie Zakuza's house. [clears throat] >> Okay. Um, Shellan and I arrived at the house and I entered the house and Shell started helping me gather Veronica's belongings and sorting through what was mine and hers and was garbage and what was not and um made separate piles of what was whose and Lonnie called the phone that I had which was Veronica's So, different than the number you already gave me. >> Correct. I was I had Veronica left her phone at the house and I had it. Um, and because my cell phone is out of minutes right now, it doesn't work. And told me that she was on the way and they had people with her to come and get Veronica with her stuff. And I told her, "No, >> okay, she's on the way. There's a problem." She said we I mean and I at that time I didn't know who she meant. I mean until she showed up and um Veronica Lonnie Dennis and some other guy that I don't know who he is showed up and the person that I had with me left and I called the police. When she left, did she not ride with you? No. Originally, >> she rode in a different vehicle. >> Okay. >> She had a truck that she drove down there and I drove a different one. >> Okay. And have you talked to her since the incident? >> No, I have not. I haven't had a phone. >> Okay. You You grabbed your boss's truck and trailer, >> correct? Because Veronica's vehicle that is on the property has a busted windshield, no tabs, and a flat tire, and it's not movable, you know. So, I was going to winch it up onto the trailer and take it wherever she would like. Assuming it was a flatbed trailer, >> correct? A tilt deck. Yes. >> That's I was assuming that she would want it at her father's and that's where I planned on taking it. Um, I called the police because I did not want them there. I knew that there was going to be a problem. I told them that I didn't want them to be there and they said that was too bad. They were coming in to get the stuff. And so I called the police. While I was on the phone with 911, um they proceeded to try to break into the house and they broke into the shin and I pleaded with the dispatcher to get somebody there right away and it was I don't know probably between 5 and 8 minutes somewhere in there and Jennifer Rogers police officer showed up. >> And how did they break into the shed? >> Um they grabbed it and ripped the door open >> with their hands. >> Yes. And it did it have a lock on it? >> It had a H has with a lock on it and they they grabbed it and they ripped it open and forced the nails that were holding the HP on. >> So they grabbed the has pulled the nails out of the >> Well, they just had to hold the door and yanked and the has came off the wall. >> Who did that? >> Lonnie and Dennis and Veronica. All three of them >> were on the same door pulling out the same time. Where was the uh >> I don't know where the other guy went. >> Okay. >> Didn't see him. >> I didn't see I mean I was in my house and I was only relying on the camera that I could see. >> Okay. >> Um and when Jennifer Rogers got there, she confronted uh the people that were there. Um, and then she while I was on the phone with dispatch, the dispatch told me to just to stay there, stay on the line until she was done. And then she had me to go to the front door and went to the front door. >> Who had you go to the front door? >> The dispatch. She Jennifer Rogers had requested dispatch to send me to the front door. >> So, where were the three at when Officer Rogers arrived? >> In the backyard in the driveway area. >> Okay. >> Trying to get into the shed or in the shed. Um, I I clearly identified myself at the front door and Jennifer Rogers identified herself. And um, I explained to her the situation was that Veronica was moving out and that I did not want those individuals to be here at the house at that moment, that they could come back the next day at 4:00. um which has already passed on this time by the way. I mean I'm assuming that that's not happening right now. Um and they agreed to that and the summary of the visit was that Jennifer Rogers had told the individuals that were there that they needed to leave and come back at 4:00 today now which will be tomorrow. What was the significance of four o'clock? >> That she just asked me a time when I said come back tomorrow and I just I just picked out a time where I thought I might be home from work. >> Okay. >> And I just threw out a time just off the top of my head and there was no significance to it at all. >> They agreed to it. They we all agreed to it and Jennifer Rogers told you know what and told the other parties that were there that to do so and they got started to get into their vehicle and Jennifer Rogers would move into her vehicle and started moving her vehicle. I was still out front outside my house and I was yelling at Officer Rogers to stay and she did not. She looked at me and shook her head no and I told her that I didn't want her to leave without these people gone and she just left anyway. Um, at that point in time I went back into my house and >> cuz you were at the front door, you went back into the front door, >> correct? And I heard them talking on the video surveillance that I have at my dwelling saying that the police officer was gone and now they could continue doing what they were going to do. >> So your video camera does voices as well. >> Correct. And I exited the the building back through the front door and went out just a few steps away from my front door and requested for them to leave again and they refused. >> What did you say to them? >> I told them that they needed to get the [ __ ] off my property. >> Okay. >> I said, "You guys need to get the [ __ ] off my property, leave now, and come back tomorrow." And >> where were they standing when you said that? at Veronica dressed vehicle >> side at the northeast side of my yard. Yes. >> And all four of them were there. >> Correct. >> All four. >> So they left their vehicle, the vehicle that they came in >> and they started to to empty out the vehicle that Veronica had there because I told them they could take the vehicle and she Veronica had said that it doesn't drive so they didn't want to take it and I said, "Well, I I will haul it for you then. Where do you want it?" and they didn't want to accept that. They just wanted to take the stuff that was out of it. And I was like, "That's fine. Take your stuff out of it, but then you need to get the [ __ ] off my property." And they told me no, they were getting everything now. And I said, "No, you guys need to go and you need to go now then, cuz this isn't going to work." >> Where were you standing at this conversation? >> At the at the southeast corner of my house, approximately. Directly out front of my door. Just a few paces from my front door. So about how far away were you from them? >> The full length of my house. So I mean I don't know 100 ft or whatever 75 ft whatever that is. I didn't measure any. >> So you're at the southeast corner and they were all the way at the northeast corner. >> Correct. >> Okay. At that point, Dennis Higin Bothotham became verbally combative to me, saying that he was going to kill me. And I told him that he better not. I said, "Get the [ __ ] you better stay the [ __ ] away from me." Um, and he began to approach me coming from where the vehicle was down towards where I was. I didn't move at all. I stayed right there >> and I said, "You need to leave." and began to scream that he needed to leave, hoping that my neighbors would hear me. Um, and uh, Veronica dressed, got in the middle, and tried to stop him by physically grabbing him, stopping him, and he did not. He pushed her aside and shoved her to where she stumbled, and he got past her, and he came at me. >> How did How did she grab him? Um, it was dark, so I mean it appeared that she had tried to grab one of his arms by his elbow or something like that and sort of appeared. I mean, it's very dark on that side of the house. >> Mhm. >> Um, and she tried to stop him and I just, you know, was saying, "You need to leave. You need to leave over and over again in a loud voice." And Veronica even tried to stop him from coming down towards me and he didn't. And >> what was he saying while this was going on? >> He's like, "You're not you're not going to stop us from taking the stuff. We're taking it." And I I'm going to [ __ ] kill you. And I said, "No, you're not. You need to get the [ __ ] off my property right now." And at that by about that point, he had almost reached me. He was maybe one or two steps away from me. and he reached across his hip from with his right hand to his left hip and drew out a very large knife. Um, I don't know what style of knife it was, but it was a good 14 in long. And he went in the motion that he was going to try to stab me. He brought his arm up behind his back and was starting to come forward towards me. And I reached down and I grabbed a board and I smacked him with it. I mean, I didn't know what else to do. Hey. >> So, you said that you reached down. The way you described it is he was already kind of coming at you with the knife and then you reached down and grabbed the board. >> Yes, he was pulling out his knife. I saw it and I reached down and I grabbed it and it was very quick. >> So, it was just already at your feet. >> And I just What did you say? >> I didn't say anything. I mean, there wasn't even enough time to say anything at that point. I mean, by the time I had stood up and I had one and I grabbed the board in the middle of the board and it wasn't a very long board and he was about to swing at me with with his knife already in motion and I just swatted him with it. I mean, I didn't even it wasn't like a baseball bat swing or nothing. I just had it in my hand and I swatted at him with it and I hit him on the side of the head and he fell to the ground. >> So, you just have the board with one hand. >> Yes, one hand >> right in the middle. >> Which hand? >> My right hand. She hit him on the left side of the head. >> Correct. >> And what happened next? >> He collapsed to the ground and it was Veronica and Lonnie. He started yelling, "Oh my god, you hit Dennis." And they started coming at me and then this other dude that was behind the car, he didn't say ever say anything, but he came at, you know, was running at me and I didn't know who he was or who what who was going to do what. And so I ran in the house. >> And did they have anything in their hands? I mean, do you remember >> they have flash fights, but other than that, I don't know if they have any weapons on them, but I do know that they do carry them from personal experience of hanging out with Ronnie. I mean, I I know who she is and she does I mean, I just know that I shouldn't have stayed. So, I ran in the house. I locked the door behind me. I grabbed my dog out of the bedroom and I went out the back door now that they were at the front door and I snuck around and jumped in the vehicle that I was driving and I left the premises as fast as I possibly could out of fear for my life. Okay. >> Was it possible that when Dennis was coming at you that he already had the knife in his left hand and was in a sheath or do you think >> the knife was possible? >> And I and I'm just throwing this out there. >> That could be possible cuz his arms were down at his sides and I mean it was very dark and he was wearing dark clothing and I mean I I know that it was him and I could see that it was him and I mean we were yelling at each other and >> but you said he reached down. He reached down with his right hand and he grabbed it like this like like as if it were stuffed in a belt or if he was holding it with his hand >> sheath on his sheath. Yeah. I mean he >> and so I mean I just took that as a life-threatening moment, you know, where I had to protect myself and I didn't have another choice. I mean >> and you're you're describing a 14inch knife. Are we talking just 14 in worth of blade and then the handle? I I when he grabbed it like this, I mean I just estimated it like about this long that's holding the handle, you know, I mean like this. >> So just the blade was 14 in. >> I mean the from his hand to the in the tip of the blade was about like this and the handle was in his hand. >> So 14inch blade plus the handle. >> I mean I know machetes are fairly long so I don't think it was a machete. I mean, I don't >> What color was the metal? >> Well, chrome, I guess. >> Shiny. >> I mean, it's dark. I mean, I didn't I didn't have a light to reflect off of it. I mean, >> so you don't know for sure. >> I know. I know for sure. >> So, it could be black. >> It wasn't black. I mean, black I would have been able to tell. I mean, it was definitely, you know, a lighter color >> or metallic looking in color. >> I mean, most knives are chrome or a silver. I mean, >> it wasn't a black like army issue knife or something like that, you know. Um, let's back up just a little bit because during the visit with with uh, Officer Rogers, the phone that I used to call 911 was Veronica's. >> Mhm. >> When Veronica was standing up front with Officer Rogers, she requested to have her phone back and I had to give that phone back. So, at the point when Veron when Officer Rogers left, I was no longer left with a phone >> because your phones have no minutes. My phones have no minutes. And that that time I that Veronica's phone was on my person >> and any other phone that I do have, whether or not I could call 911 from them, they weren't with me. I didn't have them. So, I didn't have a choice to call 911. I didn't have a choice to do anything but react. I mean, it was a life-threatening act. >> So, on that note, um story is a little bit different than what we talked about before. Um, let's back up to the point where you're you're coming out the front door. You're standing at the southeast corner of the house. They're at the northeast corner. You're kind of getting a little verbal confrontation there, right? You're telling them to leave. He's yelling, "No, we're getting the stuff now." Um, you told me at one point that he said, you know, I'm going to kill you. And it starts coming at you. And you told me that you said, "Come on, come get some." >> I did say that. Yes, I did say that. I was like, "If you're going to do it, come get some." And >> and then he kept coming. >> I thought that that was going to be intimidating enough for him to turn around and leave, and it wasn't. Okay. >> It may have instigated. >> So, those are the details. I mean, I I want to know everything. >> I agree. I mean, I'm just >> That's why I backed you up on that. I want to make that clear. >> I'm just exhausted in that mood. >> Did you know that the 2x4 was at your feet? >> It was laying laying there right by the deck. It seems to me that if you're standing where we where you were at where we walked through earlier and I mean it would take somebody not very long to go like this right versus you looking down grabbing a 2x4 and picking it up. Is there any chance just to to clear the water that you might have had it beforehand? Could you have picked it up beforehand? No, it was it's always been laying there and I've always tried to prepare myself, you know, that if if somebody's going to come that, you know, I mean, I have a way to defend myself and that board is always laying there right by my front porch. >> So, is that why you leave it there? >> Just in case somebody were to come to my house in a violent way, I guess, cuz I have planned to be that way to me. >> Okay. So, stored there, >> it's just laying on the ground neatly right by the >> So, it wasn't by just pure luck. It was there. You put it there. >> Well, I mean, it's been there for a while. I mean, I did put it there, but it's been many months ago. I mean, it wasn't that I knew that they were coming and I put it there. >> But the reason you left it there was in case somebody >> I have I have an individual that is looking to hurt me very badly. And so, yes, had it sitting there for protection purposes just for that reason. I mean, and the person was coming after him was a very dangerous man. And I just want to clarify it was outside the house. Correct. It's not inside. >> Correct. Okay. All right. Um, so I'd still kind of like to know who this fourth guy is. Can you describe him to me? He's approximately my height and build. Maybe a little wider in the shoulders. 6'2, 63, somewhere in there. Yes. Clean shaven with a a shaved head. and he was dressed all in black. Other than that, I didn't see any monitoring. I didn't get close enough to him to even notice who he was. He wasn't in sight of my camera at that time to even clearly identify him. It was just a brief moment. Did he have any involvement at all in anything that went on >> as far as he was he was helping unload the the the car or was attempting to unload the car, her car after officer Rogers left? >> Um it's kind of weird that he kind of disappeared as soon as Officer Rogers showed up. I mean, I clearly could see Veronica there, and I could see Dennis and and Lonnie, but as soon as Officer Rogers showed up, he was nowhere to be seen. >> At one point earlier, you had mentioned that at one point, Veronica was trying to break in the back door of your house, >> the front door. >> The front door. >> And this other guy, this fourth guy, was trying to break into >> the back door. And I could hear him clearly doing it. And I could see Dennis on the camera and I could hear him. >> How do you know it was him and not Lonnie? >> Cuz Lonnie was at the standing out there with Dennis in the yard right by her car. I can >> clear the yard. As far as >> my driveway, I guess is what it is. I could clearly see them on my camera. And >> so maybe he had more involvement than just trying to pack some stuff up for Veronica. >> I They were trying to get in my house. Yes. And this is when you initially called 911. >> Correct. >> Mhm. >> That's why I called 911 is because they were kicking my doors and trying to get in my house. >> What stopped them? >> Officer Rogers pulled into the driveway. I even told them that I called 911. I told them I was on the phone with 911. They're like, "Good. Call 911. It'll save us the time." >> How long did it take Officer Rogers to get there, do you think? >> Quite a bit. >> Yeah, >> quite a bit. I was on the phone with 911 for a minute and I actually ended up losing battery signal or cell phone signal with while I was on the phone with 911 and it died. >> Okay. >> It took it took a little while and I had to plug the phone back in and charge it and call her back in order >> how how long did it take after >> I'd say it was probably at least 10 minutes. At least 10 minutes from the time I initially called 911 till got there. And I mean I was frantic on the phone with 911. So after the fight happened, how long did it take officer Rogers to get there? >> What fight? >> Between you and Dennis? >> Um there I don't know. I was not there. Okay. >> I left the premises immediately. >> Did you drive by any How did you get Where did you go when you left there? >> Um I went down Highway 10, went to Thorp, and then drove the Thorp Highway back to Upper Peel Point. drove up at Peele Point to Westside Road or to Mohar Road from Mohar Road to Westside Road and took Westside Road out to where there was a a road that went up to the woods and I stayed in the woods. >> Why? Because I was scared. I didn't want any of these individuals to find me. >> Okay. >> Did they know that where you might be going instead of going that way? No. I mean, if you wouldn't have done all that, do you think they would have been able to guess where you were going? >> Yes. Okay, >> most definitely. Okay. >> Had I gone to my boss's house initially, you know, like right off the bat, they would have known that. I don't have any friends. I don't have anybody that I hang out with. I mean, the only place I'd go is home and to work. And Veronica knows that. And so does Lonnie. And they would have gone looking for me there. >> So where on Westside Road in the woods did you end up? >> Um, I want to say it was Fowler Creek Road. I believe I think it was either that or it was Woods and Steel. I can't get those two mixed up. >> Well, Fowler Creek is where we got a really sharp creek then past your place in. >> And how long did you stay? >> All night long. >> Okay. >> Just in the truck or did you >> Yeah. >> Where did you call? You called Kickcom this morning >> to to basically report this incident, right? >> Where did you call from? >> My boss's house. >> Okay. And I'm sorry, who's your boss, Dennis? >> Dennis Schmidt. Yes. >> Schmidt Sit T. >> What's this one? >> I gave it to you. So 4253580507. That's home phone number 6560232. >> Where did you tell officer deputy Thompson that you were at? >> Who was? >> Yeah. How come? >> Because I'm scared. You know >> to buy yourself some more time maybe to think or >> Yeah. I mean like I mean to be honest with you I mean I didn't know who to trust anymore because I mean I I'm was completely let down by officer Rogers in my opinion you know I mean I was there and I needed help and I feel like I was let down and I I don't know if it was intentional or not but I mean I just don't trust anybody you know I mean I knew it was the right thing to do to call you guys and say hey you know I mean this is what happened. I mean I'm scared you know I mean I didn't mean to hurt anybody. >> Why'd you wait so long before you called? just mentally exhausted, man. >> I mean, I was freaking out and I just I really have never been in this position and I don't know what to do. >> And >> what did you think about um on your trip from um >> trying to stay awake? >> Oh, going all the way down Highway 10. And [clears throat] >> that's all I could think about was trying to stay awake cuz I kept falling asleep behind the wheel and I had to pull over a couple of times just to smoke a cigarette, you know, walk around and wake up. I mean, all I could think about is, "Oh my god." I mean, what the [ __ ] am I going to do? I mean, is that guy okay? I mean, I mean, that was the first thing. I mean, I was like, "Oh my god, I hope that guy's all right." I mean, >> that's it. Right now, even this minute, I hope he's all right. I mean, I did not mean to hurt him at all. I mean, all I wanted to do was to stop him from coming at me with a weapon. And then >> Do you think it if he was coming at you with a weapon that it was okay to hurt him >> in his self-defense? Yes. >> Okay. I mean, I honestly did not want to do anything. I just I clearly told him to leave. >> What if I mean, let me let me change the scenario a little bit in that what if what if there wasn't a weapon and and this is hypothetical, okay? What if there wasn't a weapon and four >> if they' come at me swinging, I would have sworn back, >> okay, >> with my fists. >> Even if there were four people and you're on your property, they've been told to leave by the police department, they didn't leave. They were told by you, the the the person that's responsible for [clears throat] the property, to leave and they didn't leave. And now you have somebody that's mouththing off at you that's yelling at you and you're telling him to leave and that he's threatening your life >> and that the people that are with him, right? But you didn't have an opportunity. >> I didn't have an opportunity. >> Right? So if if that person starts coming at you >> and now you have three other people including him and one of them trying to hold him back, do you still not think it's okay to defend yourself with something? Not with something. No. I mean, if he didn't have a weapon, I would have not used a weapon at all. >> Okay. >> I mean, I I I did not want to hurt this individual. I did not want to hurt him at all. If he'd swung his fist at me, I probably would have ducked. I probably would have tried to put him to the ground and hold him and try to get police there. >> Well, even with the three other people there and no cell phone. >> Well, I mean, I would have screamed across the street to the neighbor to call 911 even louder than I was already. I mean, the officer was literally just there just a matter of minutes before this. What would it have taken for you to defend yourself with something? Because we've had this conversation out here and I've said if somebody's at my house and I've told them to leave and the cops have told them to leave, I'm going to arm myself with something. So maybe you and I are different in that respect, but I'm not going to get my ass kicked in my property. Right. >> I agree. I agree to that, you know, but I mean if I don't need to, I'm not going to. I mean, if all four of them would have come at me at once, then maybe I would have. >> Okay. But I mean, if it was just the one individual, I probably wouldn't need to. >> Okay. >> I mean, I didn't want to fight at all. I didn't want any trouble at all. And >> is this the board? >> I think so. Yes. >> See how it's got the grooves in it? Like it was >> for bands for lumber packages. I think I think that's the one. It was laying right there by the front porch. >> Okay. Now, I think I think though I think when I ran in the house, I still had it in my hand. >> I think I think when I ran in the house, I still had it in my hand. >> Okay. >> I want to clarify that. But it was initially by the front porch. >> Okay. >> So, you think that's the board? >> I Yeah, I believe so. I think I ran in the house and I and I and I threw it >> been I mean >> the one that you had sitting by your front porch that's been there for months had it had that groove cut in it. I that I believe that's the one. >> Okay. >> I mean, it's pretty distinctive. >> Yeah. A lot of people just have those >> and and it was laying by my front porch and I and I reached down and I grabbed it. >> All right. So, I dated it in time that you positively identified that that's the the board you had. >> I mean, without actually holding it in my hand, but I mean, from your picture, yes, it does >> 45 in long. And I grabbed it right in the middle and I mean part of the board was underneath my armpit, you know, or forearm or whatever. I mean, I just I had it like like this in my hand and I just whacked him like throwing a ball, you know what I mean? The side of his head. Well, uh, took a while for us to get here to sit down and talk to Stan. I mean, and and there was a reason behind that, okay? We weren't just sitting here making any weight. >> I know. >> Um there's a lot of phone calls we had to make, a lot of a lot of different things we wanted to check out because um like you said, we're we're gathering information. >> Neither one of us were there. >> I know. >> Um so we're we're going off of what people were telling us and we're getting conflicting stories. Okay, >> I understand. >> So that's why we're we're making phone calls trying to verify some things. >> Okay. My biggest hurdle is this 14 inch knife. I know. I mean, I can't I can't say what other people did because I left the premises immediately. And I don't know what else to say about that. I mean, I would not have grabbed that board and hit that man had he not have a weapon in his hand. >> Well, here's my question. >> Clearly was clearly >> Here's my question to you, Joe. Could it have been anything else other than a knife that maybe you thought was a knife? Because there is no knife. >> No, >> there is no knife. There is no knife. >> Then you need to ask the individuals that were there with him. >> We did. That's what it took so long. >> Then they're lying. >> So you don't think it could have been anything else? Could he have had anything in his hand? That >> he had a flashlight in one hand and he reached with his other hand and grabbed a knife. I clearly waited and identified this. I was watching him walk down the the the the yard and I could clearly see he had a flashlight in one hand and he clearly grabbed a knife out of the out of his other side, you know, opposite side with his open hand. >> So the so the the sheath and the knife couldn't have been in this hand. >> I don't know if there was a flashlight. >> I'm saying he had a flashlight in one hand and he reached across his front of his body with his right hand to his left and he pulled out a knife. So, nobody, as far as I I couldn't imagine anybody keeping a knife like that on their person without it being cheap, >> I one would think, >> right? I mean, a knife that size, a >> pretty good size knife, >> right? Obviously, you didn't have to shut down his pants. >> I would hope not, >> right? >> Or even in his belt loop when you're going to >> You guys got to understand it was dark and I really could not see very well with him walking down the side of the the house. I mean, I >> That's why I'm asking you, could it have been anything else? >> Whatever. If it wasn't a knife, it was something that was used in a way to make it seem like it was and in a threatening manner. >> I mean, lots of things could potentially look like a knife in the dark. I mean, a crowbar, something like that. >> I'm not an idiot. And I and and I clearly could see that it was a knife. >> Okay. I mean, it when he pulled it out, I mean, it was hand on a handle blade. I mean, could it have been a machete? Maybe. But it wasn't just a chunk of wood that was carved to look like a knife. I mean, it was a knife. >> And it wasn't a folding knife. You pulled it out. It was already you're describing to me as a fixed blade >> kind of >> 14inch metallic, if I'm saying it right, like a Bowie knife. I I mean, you know, Indiana Jones style. It's a great big thick as well. >> Yes. >> I mean, it's clear to me >> because the medics didn't see it. We didn't see it. I mean, you had a lot of stuff in your yard. Um, I noticed you still had Christmas lights on. There's some garbage around. There were some other yard lights that were wadded up into a ball. Um, you know, all all those things that you're telling me where you guys were at, those stuck out my mind. of obviously looking today. Um because it's nice and it's daylight. I'm not disadvantaged by the dark. So I was trying to do is try to find anything that he would have had in his hand that could possibly resemble a knife that would make you think was a knife. >> He didn't bend down to pick up anything. It's just something he reached down to his wayside and pulled out >> and he brought it with him. >> Yes. And Veronica was trying to get him to stop for a reason. She wouldn't I mean she wouldn't have been trying to pull him away from me if she didn't feel that he was going to do harm to me. >> Well, see now I view that differently. I view it that Veronica was stopping Dennis for Dennis's own good. Dennis is little guy. >> I was I wasn't going to be violent. I told them to leave my property. I wasn't moving. I wasn't coming at them in a threatening manner. He was coming at me in a threat. >> You were standing your ground. You're yelling at them to get leave. All I >> obviously emotional between you and Veronica. You have a right to >> I mean it's your property >> and that's all I was doing. I didn't move. I didn't advance. I didn't make any threatening advances. I didn't make any threatening mentions. >> Right. But Dennis is coming at you. >> I'm sure she's going to think that, oh, Joe's going to protect himself. Dennis is going to try and show off to her. >> Maybe it was both. I mean, maybe she thought that I was going to hurt him or maybe she thought he was going to hurt me or maybe a combination of the both. Regardless, she tried to stop him >> and he shoved her away, >> right? >> And made it to where she couldn't hold on to him anymore and he continued after me. >> And what you you talked to me about that before when we were there to show me where they were when that happened compared to where you were standing and that was uh well, we measured it. It was 25 ft away. Um, >> so my 100 feet's way off, but >> yeah. But but you did talk about uh um when I asked you, you know, when Dennis pushed Veronica away, did she go to the ground? >> She did not fall to the ground. No, >> she just kind of stumbled. >> She stumbled and lost her balance, you know, and she had to get back up and get her composure, you know, but I mean, she wasn't like >> But she didn't go to the ground. >> She didn't go to the ground. No. >> All right. Why wouldn't Veronica and Lonnie tell us about the night? Why wouldn't they? What possible reason can you come up with that they wouldn't tell us about that night? Big deal, Joe. >> Maybe I understand that. And maybe to try to help the situation for him. Maybe to set me up. I don't know. I mean, I have nothing to hide. I have done nothing wrong in my eyes but protect myself. But >> you you told me that you and Veronica were basically having a peaceful breakup. U you you weren't >> having issues between you and her came to a decision. >> I mean I don't necessarily say it was like oh yeah hey it's time to break up. I mean we did have a little bit of a you know argument and dispute about it but I mean the conclusion was that she was going to move out but >> it wasn't physical. You weren't throwing stuff. You weren't It wasn't out of control in any way. >> Exactly. I mean, it was a mutual decision, you know. It wasn't >> it was >> so I don't understand why she wouldn't because I didn't want to have it happen right then and there now tonight. I requested for it to be tomorrow, which is now today. And they weren't abiding by that and I wanted them to leave. And I even was leaving myself. I wasn't going to stay because she didn't want >> her stuff messed with by anybody else. She wanted to be able to pack her stuff and I wanted to be there with an officer. So, because they wanted to stay and do it, that that changed the ball game. >> Why wouldn't she want to wait? Because there'd be an officer there the next day or what? >> I I can't answer anything for her. I don't know. I mean, >> but for years, >> I told her that she was allowed to get her stuff out of her vehicle that was there >> and I was okay with that. Even though it was okay with them taking it if they wanted to. I was even offered to take her vehicle for her and take it someplace. I just can't come up with a motive for Veronica to lie to us about the knife. >> Something as serious as that. >> I don't know. I can't explain that to you. I can't explain anything for anybody else but myself. >> This doesn't make sense to me. I mean, like I said, it's a big deal. >> It's a very big deal. >> It's a big deal. I mean, Dennis ended up in the hospital. Um, all she had to say to the officer was, "Well, Dennis pulled an eye. >> Joe hit me with the board." >> And that that was completely omitted. >> Maybe she didn't even know that he had it then. >> How How could she not know that? >> I don't know that she I don't know. >> You told me. No, you told me where you were standing when this happened with with Dennis and they were 25 ft away from you. Straight view. I was very clear on that. We took measure clear motion with it. >> Very clear motion. You're coming up there. >> No way. >> And if you know that he had a knife, where did the knife end up at? >> I can't answer that. >> Or a sheath. >> I can't answer that for you. I don't know. >> Cuz nobody has the sheath. Venice doesn't have a sheath with him. I never said there was one. >> Where else would it be? >> Maybe through his belt. I I don't know. It was dark and all I seen is him grab it and pull it out. That was all I've seen. And that was all it took for me to do was to bend down and grab to protect myself. And I didn't even hit him very hard. I just >> And we kind of went over this. You can protect yourself on your property whether somebody has a knife or not. >> And yeah, I agree. I mean, >> especially when there's poor somebody. >> I would not have grabbed that board had I not seen that knife. >> Would it have mattered if maybe he was a 25year-old guy that looked like he was built like an MMA guy, would you have grabbed a board then? >> Maybe. >> Or would you? I mean, if it was a big dude that I knew. >> So, the part that bothers you about grabbing the board is that he's 60 maybe. versus >> the part that bo that bothers me is that I mean I didn't want to die and I thought this guy was going to stab me. I don't care if he's 60. >> Take the take the knife out of the equation. Let's say there is no knife. Is there a difference between a 60-year-old guy with three people there to help him? Clearly not helping you. In your mind, is there a difference between that and if it was some guy that looks like he's some trained, you know, cage fighter coming at you with three people? Do you grab the board if there's a 25-year-old guy coming at you? >> If he had no knife, they better believe I would. >> Okay. >> I mean, if I if I can see that guy is clearly going to come to harm me and I know that he's a trained fighter, you know damn well I'm going to grab something to defend myself with it. >> Okay. So, what's the difference between hitting somebody that's coming at you with a board and somebody that's coming at you and you hitting them with a fist? >> I I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to Are you saying that if Dennis didn't have a weapon? >> Yeah. >> Then would I have grabbed the board? >> No. I I'm saying is you're you're on your property. You have a a legal right to defend yourself on your property. So why not give yourself every advantage that you can even if that person doesn't have a >> knife somebody was coming at me and I I mean I would try to be intimidating to get them off my property and >> but you tried and and that didn't that wasn't successful. >> I mean it would be a situation basis I I would have to say. I mean I don't have a straight answer. >> It sounds like to me you did everything that you could to get them off your property before things turned violent. >> Correct. >> Is that a a correct assumption? >> Yes, that is correct. I even called 911 and had an officer come to remove them. >> Okay. >> And that didn't work. And I mean, I did not sit there at the front yard and and like plan on hitting this guy with a 2x4. I mean, it it wasn't even like that. I mean, he wasn't even coming at me when I was standing there telling him to get off my property. Once we started arguing, then he started coming at me. And I honestly thought the guy was going to swing on me with his fist and I was going to get in a fist fight. That's what I thought was going to happen, but that's not what happened. He pulled a knife on me. >> And I'm having I'm trying to grasp this, but I'm having a really hard time the timeline wise somebody you you visually seeing somebody grab a knife, pull it out, and start swinging it. and you having the having having the >> awareness to go, "Oh, this 2x4 is so close that I can reach down, grab it, pick it up, and swing it in the same time that you're saying that he swung a knife at you." That doesn't make sense. >> It's not like he did it in an extremely fast motion. I mean, it's not like you're seeing in the movies where someone reaches in, grabs a knife, and goes to status. That's not >> right. But what you're saying is that he pulled a knife like this >> in the time that he Hold on. In the time that he pulled the knife, you were able to bend over, grab a 2x4, lift it up, and hit him with it before he could stab you. >> I reached down and grabbed it and smacked him in the side of the head. I wasn't I didn't swing it at him. I just reached out and smacked it. >> But you did all of that in the same time that he had that you saw him take a knife out and recognize that it was a knife, right? Cuz you said that you wouldn't have hit him if it wasn't a knife. Correct. So, you did all of that stuff in the time that you saw him pull it out, see that it was a knife, then you reached down, take a 2x4, and smack him in the head. >> As he was coming down, I was wondering if he had any kind of weapon, you know, but I was prepared to fight with my fists. The minute I seen him make the motion and have a weapon, I very, very fastly bent down and picked it up and just smacked him on the side of the head with it. It was a very fast. >> So, you knew where the 2x4 was at before? >> Was standing right by it? Okay. It >> was right there next to me. Okay. I mean, I I wasn't going to hit him with it and I knew it was there, but it was only >> because it was there for self-defense. >> Correct. If that that especially in that situation, I mean, I've used it for other purposes, too, you know, like for for standing on things and or, you know, putting up my Christmas lights, you know, things of that sort. Put it between two ladders, you know, things of that sort. It's not just there just to go and hit somebody because it it's not what I initially put it out there for. It was just to protect myself if somebody came. But I mean >> on the outside on the outside. >> Yes. It had been laying there for months. It hadn't had not been touched. My dog chews on it outside. >> And I'm sure if you look at it, there's chew marks on it for my dog. I did not want to hurt that man. I did not want him on my property. I don't think it was your intent to hurt him when he showed up and I don't think it was in your intent to hurt him. I think you guys got into an argument. >> I asked him to leave many times and he came at me and he produced a weapon and I acted extremely briskly and as fast as I could to save my own life. That is how I interpreted the situation. >> And and you're describing his action, it wasn't fast like the movies, but you're describing your own action as faster than what's in the movie in the midst of walking when he did this. And he was a little bit farther away than you and I are together right now. And he was coming at me when I judged that he was had a knife at that point in time. >> Okay. >> And he was coming at me. And >> so from this far away, >> he was maybe just a little farther away than this, but not by much. And I I was already in the defensive mode of am I going to box this dude? >> Right. Because you get I mean he had made >> I mean he's coming at me saying he's going to kill me. I mean, I'm I'm like I'm >> He had made threats. You had said come get some. And you gave >> I mean like I I turned a little bit, you know. I'm like I'm getting ready to fight, you know. I thought this guy's going to swing at me. And when he started just initially started to reach in, I bent down and by the time he's up, I >> Well, no, you you said that you he'd already pulled the knife out cuz he recognized it as an egg. >> As he's pulling it out, I recognized it and I was grabbing the board and I smacked it. I mean, I I I can't justify my actions as is as you're right. I should never hit anybody. But I mean, I'm I was protecting myself in fear and I don't have any other choice. I mean, I had already had 911 there. I had an officer there that told him to leave him. He wouldn't. I didn't. >> So, when he when he pulls the knife out, you you said he had it all the way up and was coming back. >> By the time I hit him, he was already coming at me with it. I mean, the motion of his arm was already coming at me by the time my >> So, the blade was like above his head, >> correct? So the point of the blade was up here. >> Well, I mean, not necessarily that far. I don't know if he could read it. >> It happened so fast that I mean >> because in the time that he went from here and he recognized >> he went like this and I mean like I mean it was a clear motion. He was reaching for something. So reaching for something I bent down and as soon as I saw the knife it so in this time okay for me to hit him with >> in this time frame he bent over, grabbed a 2x4 and hit him. >> It was fast. Okay. I mean, >> and that is that's >> I would not have hit him with it had he not been in motion of swinging a knife at me, >> but >> and what I'm trying to tell you is from personal experience, I don't see where the knife makes a difference. Does that Does that make sense? >> It doesn't make a difference, but I mean, I don't I don't like to be violent, but even if he was coming at me bare-handed, I don't think I would have hit him with that 2x4. probably would have took a step back and and tried to threaten him with it. I know. But when there's somebody, you know, swinging something else at me. >> Is that what happened? >> Is what would happen? >> What you just asked? Is that what happened? And then he pulled a knife. >> I don't know. I don't know. >> This isn't working for me. This isn't believable to me. You're not >> It happened. It happened so fast, man. I mean, and I I I don't even I mean, I remember screaming at him and I remember picking up the board and I remember hitting him with it as he was swinging a knife at me. I mean, that's I I recognized that he had a knife and that clicked to me that I was in danger and >> Mhm. No one else saw the knife, though, bud. >> Nobody. >> Of course they didn't. >> There's no sheep. Not saying there has to be, but there has to be a sheep. >> Of course there's not. I mean, >> well, the medics didn't hide it, help hide it. They didn't take his belt off, take the sheet off, put the belt back on. >> I wasn't there after that. I hit him. >> But we're telling you, we're telling you that. >> Okay. I can understand that >> he was his clothing was fully intact. It's exactly what you described to me. Okay, >> that's fine. I understand that. >> But I can't say that I saw somebody else grab it cuz I wasn't there. I left. I don't know. He had one on his hand when I hit him. When I hit him, he had a knife in his hand and he fell to the ground and it was still there when he was on the ground. I immediately ran inside and I grabbed my dog and I left. As for what happened after that or during the appointment when I was in my house, I can't say that for anybody else. I can only tell you what I did, what I saw. And I am having a problem with the superhuman speed of recognizing a knife within >> we train for this stuff and that's impossible. >> Just 21 ft. 21 ft. I'm sure you've seen on YouTube. I'm sure you've seen on movie cops. Whatever. >> Maybe my my measurements are off, but I clearly identified him having a knife and it was in his hand being swung at me when I hit him with that board. Could it have been that he started pulling the knife out when he was maybe 10 or 15 further back? Maybe right as soon as he pushed Veronica aside. Maybe that's when he pulled it out. >> That could be a possibility. I'm just saying that I mean >> So maybe you had more more time to pick up the 2x4 than all of a sudden. >> That is a possibility. Yes. I mean, but I don't I don't know for sure. I mean, it happened so fast that I can't even remember it. I mean, like, I really seriously did not want to even fight that guy. And you didn't feel obligated after >> I would have gone on I would have called 911 again had I been able to. >> How about Ders or Gillian's gas station? >> How about anywhere from the time you left your house to the time? >> I yelled for somebody to call 911. I yelled from somebody to help me get these people off the property. >> So when you hit Dennis in the head with the board, he he just dropped right where he stood. >> Yep. >> He didn't take a couple steps or anything. He just like a bag of sparks left fell like a tree being fell. >> Just fell over like a tree. And that didn't concern you. >> It did very much so. >> And I believe you. I I believe that you're I believe that you're concerned. I've had lots of conversations with you today and I can honestly sincerely >> I mean I'm I'm seriously I swear to God I didn't mean to hurt that guy. I did not mean to hurt him at all. I just wanted him to stop coming at me. And he had a weapon and I swear to you guys I did not mean to hurt him at all. But if you're that concerned, I mean, you traveled a lot of ground because you told me your path that you took. I mean, >> I was going to go I was going to go to my friend Andrew's house and he lives in Thorp and he wasn't home. I pulled over to the side of the road in front of the Thorp school because I seen some people out there with his cell phone and I called him from their cell phone. >> Called who? >> Andrew. >> And he wasn't home and he was on his way to Seattle. And so, >> did you leave a message for him? >> No, he answered the phone. He was telling him >> I said, "Andrew, I need to talk to you right away. I'm I'm near your house. Where are you? And he's like, I'm not home, man. I'm I'm on my way to Seattle. And I'm like, dude, is there any way you can come back? I need to talk to you right now. And uh I'm using somebody else's cell phone. >> Did you tell him what happened? >> No, I didn't. I didn't tell him anything. >> So, if you had a cell phone in your hand and you're able to call Andrew, why didn't you call 911 right then and there? >> And say, "Hey, I was just attacked and I smacked the guy in the head." >> Or if you're that concerned with Dennis, call if he's Well, because I knew that Veronica was calling 911 and I was scared, man. I didn't know what to do. I mean, I just hit this guy and made him fall to the ground. And I've never done that before in my life. >> And you felt bad. >> I do. I really do feel bad. I really [ __ ] feel bad for this guy. I really hope he's all right. And I was terrified for my life. Not to mention the fact that I don't have a driver's license when I was driving. I was afraid that I was going to go to jail for that, you know, I mean, and I didn't want anything bad to come in his situation. And I just figured that it would be worse. And that not to mention the fact that I had already called 911. >> I think you feel worse because he didn't have a knife. >> That's not true. That's not true at all. >> I think it is, Joe. I think you >> I think you feel bad because you probably should have you that you feel for some reason obligated that you should have gotten a fist fight, which I think is the dumbest thing ever. Why would you defending your property decide, oh, I'm going to take this guy on and then probably his three friends that are hit with him here. So, I I for one don't have I don't I for one don't blame you for arming yourself. I would do the same thing on my property. I think that you feel bad because you hit him with a 2x4 and it didn't go the way that you thought it would. But I think that you're making up the part about the knife to help your own mind justify hitting him. >> I do feel bad for hitting him in general. I feel bad >> even though he was going to he was going to kill you. Why would you feel bad? >> Feel bad to watch this dude [ __ ] collapse to the ground and then not move. >> What was his intention? If if there was a knife, what was he intending to do with it? He was intending to hurt me. >> Why would you feel bad for hitting him then? >> You feel bad for hitting him because there was no knife. >> No, I feel bad because I didn't want to hurt anybody. I don't ever want to hurt anybody. >> Well, I never meant to hurt anybody. I didn't want any any physical thing to go on. That's why I requested for them to come back. I didn't want any yelling and screaming. I didn't want >> I believe that. I believe all that. >> I didn't want any of that to happen, man. >> I believe all that. >> I wanted peace. And I honestly I didn't want Veronica to leave. I wanted her to stay. >> And I believe all of that. I believe everything you told me. I believe the path that you went on. I believe all of that except for the one part that we can't account for. >> And I can't I can't explain that. I wasn't there. >> It doesn't It also doesn't make sense. You You're saying you're scared of going to jail and all this other >> I'm not scared to go to jail. I just don't want to. >> Okay. Why would you think you're going to go to jail if you're defending your own life? >> Not for that. For driving. >> You didn't have to drive. >> No, but I was. >> My whole point was if you're truly defending your life with a guy on a knife and you hit him with a board, why did you leave? Why did you stay there for the >> Because I because this other dude that was there was coming at me as well as Lonnie. They they started coming at me. >> That's the person you said that we got this. You said they came. They came. >> They started running out >> to Dennis. >> You said they went to Dennis. >> You turned, ran into the house, >> locked the door, >> grabbed your dog, got your keys, went out the back door. >> From the time I hit him to the time I was in the vehicle leaving maybe 20 seconds, >> right? Cuz you hit him and immediately ran into the house. >> Yes. And >> that's what you told me several times. >> You hit him, he fell. >> They were coming. I hit him. They're like, "Oh my god, you hit Dennis." And then they started screaming at me and I was already in the house as they were screaming at me and they were coming at me I felt so I left. I didn't want to fight. >> Why did you drive station? >> That was a mistake on my part. >> Absolutely. >> That was a mistake. But I mean the only the only police the only police officer that was on duty was Jennifer Rogers and she was just there. >> What's it look like though when something like that happens? I knew it was going to look. >> You know what it looks like? It looks like you had 12 hours to fabricate a story about Dennis Higenbuff coming at you with a knife. >> I can see that. I was tired, man. I was tired and I'm mentally exhausted. >> I bet you didn't sleep a whole bunch last night. >> Not worth a damn, man. Toss and turn and I just wanted to just wanted some peace and just wanted to be quiet and me and my dog just snuggled in the truck and [ __ ] just stayed there, you know? I didn't want anybody else to come after me. I mean, I I'm terrified for my life that these people are going to come after me now. >> So, probably the safest place you could be is with us. >> And the one person that I that was on duty, I don't trust now. >> I asked for help and she came and she abandoned me. >> Well, I I still have problems with this whole thing, Joe. There there there is no knife. There there is no knife. >> I cannot account for something I did not have possession of. >> I did not have it. I did not touch it. >> Would you be willing to take a polygraph? >> You betcha. >> On the knife part? >> You betcha. >> Do you think Veronica and and Lonnie are going to take a polygraph? >> Bet you they don't. >> How come? >> Because I bet you they're lying. >> Why? What's the motive to lying? That doesn't make any sense. >> Because Dennis is a felon. >> So >> I'm a felon. If I get caught with a knife like that, I'm going to jail. So you you think that they would let you take a wrap for hitting him with the board >> to save him from getting in trouble? >> Yes, I do >> 100%. >> So now that we gave you that reason, that's that's what you think they're >> I'm not saying that's why. I'm just saying that I would believe if they did that >> because I asked you before, why would Piranha >> I don't know. I don't know. They are better friends and she when she gets mad at me, she would much rather take their side than mine. She would much rather me go to prison than do drug court right now. She was offered to do drug court and my current charges and her charges would all disappear if she just did drug court. She refuses to do it cuz she wants to get high. My my wellbeing being and safety doesn't matter to her. That was evident. That's part of the reason why she's moving out. >> Uh, I got to make a phone call. So, we'll do that. >> It's quarter. >> Does anybody else here in the building smoke? >> No. [ __ ] >> It's bad for you, man. >> I know, man. But I mean, it helps them stay calm. >> I'll uh actually I need to make a phone call to you because I'm not going to be home at 5 now. We're going to six. Take a break. >> You smoked all your cigarettes up. >> I did. I don't have any money with me. >> Well, hang tight for a little bit. >> All right. >> Well, that didn't go very good. >> Talk to Harvard. >> Dennis is dead. >> You're kidding me, right? >> I am not. I am not. >> So, >> I didn't mean to hurt that man. >> I don't think you did either. I I really don't think you meant to kill him. >> Well, you know what, Joe? We're going to have a whole different conversation now. This is >> You meant to hurt him cuz you hit him in the head with a 2x4. >> You meant to stop him from coming at me with a weapon. And I still don't think there's a weapon. I think you're trying to defend yourself cuz this guy's coming after you. He's got three friends. >> I would tell you that if that was exactly what happened. They were there in the car and he came at me. Veronica tried to stop him and he came around. >> How many times did he come at you? >> Just the ones. I mean, it was a delayed thing cuz Veronica tried to stop him. So, would it be true or correct or true or false if I told you that we have information that says that you guys got in an argument? He walked within 10 to 15 ft of you guys or of you. You went around the corner back towards your house. He started walking back up the hill. You came back out with a 2x4. You guys got in an argument again and he started coming at you like he was going to fight you and you hit him. >> That's true. That's not true at all. and he got within 3 ft of you and then that's when you hit him with the board. >> When he walked down the hill, he got within I don't know close enough to where I could hit him is when I hit him. But I didn't have the board in my hand the whole time. >> So, at what point did you pick up the board? >> He was probably two or three pieces from me as he's coming down the hill. >> Mhm. >> It was quick. He was not moving slow. He was fast, >> but he was slow when he pulled the knife out. >> I'm not talking like super slow. I mean, it wasn't just like lightning fast, >> but your speed on on bending over, picking up a 2x4, and whacking a guy. >> I was very quick, >> like superhuman quick, >> you know, I'm not super human, but I was very fast at it. Yes. >> And what I would say would would be impossibly fast. everything you're describing to >> as fast as I possibly could within my ability. >> Right. But somebody's trying to hurt you with a knife >> and so I did it as fast as I probably was possible. >> Right. But don't you think if he's going to hurt you with a knife, he's going to do it? >> I thought I thought he was going to get me before I got hurt. >> And based on what you're telling me, there's no way that he wouldn't have. two pieces away. Grabbing a knife, pulling a knife out. You recognize a knife. >> I'm guessing how far he was. I don't know. >> Bringing the knife all the way up and then you you describe coming back forward with the knife like he's going to stab you. >> I picked >> that that little quick motion. And you were able to bend over, grab a board, pick it up, and hit him in the head with it before he even >> I picked up the board as he was pulling the knife out and I hit him before he hit me. >> Well, you you picked up the board after you recognized that it was a knife, which is going to I mean out here. >> I went down to pick over the board because he reached into his side. I didn't know it was a knife at all at first, but as soon as I saw it was a knife, I hit him. >> Okay. And that is more believable than what you told me or told us for the last hour. >> It happened so fast, man. I can't even explain to you how fast it's happened. >> I know, but we've just been here an hour. >> And this is the first time you're >> Well, you've changed it. An hour. An hour. >> I bent down and I picked up the board as he was picking something out of his side. I mean, it was all in one motion. Did you ever actually see that it was a knife? >> Yes. >> When? >> The minute that I cleared his the front of him. >> But you were bending down picking up a >> matching him the whole time >> while you were bending over. >> Mhm. >> Are you That doesn't make any sense. >> He's dead, right? >> I would not kid you about that. Absolutely not. >> I did not mean to hurt that guy. >> No, you you meant to hurt him. >> Not kill him. Okay, there's a difference, right? I I believe that you meant to hurt him but didn't mean to kill him. >> Only because he was going to hurt me. >> And that's the area that we have some disagreement in is the means that he was going to hurt you. >> I swear you on my father's dead grave. That man had a knife. Then why are we finding the knife? >> Don't know. Then >> then why are you running away >> and I'm not coming to the police? >> I've gone to them. Gone to them already. >> The one time that you How about this? Hey, this is Joe Richmond. Can I talk to the sheriff's office? Can I talk to state patrol? Can I talk to Ellair Police Department? Can I talk to anybody except for the one officer that I for this moment don't trust? I saw that man hit the ground and he didn't move and I was scared. >> You had access to a phone within 20 minutes to make a phone call to say, "Hey, I hit a guy. Is he all right?" "Hey, I was defending myself. Is he all right?" And you didn't. You waited 12 hours before you contacted us to come talk to you. >> I was scared. >> You even had a phone in your hand at one point. >> You told me that you called Andrew when you were in Fort >> on these on these strangers. They were in front of the school and I believe school. >> You actually had a phone in your hand >> and you still didn't call. >> I can't explain my actions for that. I mean, I maybe >> You have to explain your actions for that cuz I can't. You're the only one that can. >> I was terrified for my life and I was running and I wanted to help and I didn't think I could count on anybody else. >> Anybody but Andrew. >> He was the only place I could think of that was close that I would be safe. It wasn't close though. You drove 20 minutes to get there. >> That was the closest place I could drive that I thought I'd be safe and nobody would know where I went because I thought these people were going to come after. >> You don't you don't think Officer Rogers if you called her and said, "I just hit somebody in the head with a board would have would have helped you." >> No, I do not. >> This person just attacked me with a knife and I defended myself and she wouldn't help you. These people were trying to break into my house and she wouldn't help me. >> Who's Andrew? >> Andrew Bernett. >> Bernett. >> Yes. >> And he's living in Thor, >> I believe. He said he gave me directions like a couple of months ago. >> So if we call him, he's going to say yes. >> Yeah. >> And you don't know who these people were at the school that you >> No, he I think he was a teacher, I think, and they had just got back from a basketball game. So if we call Andrew Madette Bernett and say, "Hey, you got a call from Joe Richmond." >> Yeah. >> That night and or last night. And can you tell me what number he called from? >> Correct. >> We can call these people back. >> Correct. >> And what are they going to say? >> But I stopped and I said, "Hey, I need to speak to I need I have an emergency. I need to use your phone. Do you have a phone? I don't have a phone." >> So you roll up in a brand new truck and a flatbed and say, "I have an emergency. Can I use your phone?" >> I explained to him that my phone was out of minutes. I no longer had any minutes on my phone and they would not make any phone calls and I needed to use a phone and they let me use the phone. So they told me no, I would have understood. >> So you're saying a phone out of minutes can't dial 911? >> Yes, it can. But I didn't at that point. I didn't think 911 would work. I had already gone down that avenue and exasperated that option. >> Well, no you didn't. You you exa exasperated one option, right? >> I called her because they were trying to break into my house. >> I know. We went over that >> and she left me there. >> You think the situation changed a little bit after the officer left? >> They decided to take it upon themselves, >> but but it rose to the level of getting hit in the head with the board. >> It did. Yes, it did. >> So, it was a whole different thing. Whole different scenario, right? >> It wasn't just a dispute over property and and what time is it proper to come and get it. it. We went from that to >> now we know a lethal assault. >> At that point in time, I didn't know, man, that this guy was going to come at me. I thought that just yelling at him, telling her to leave, he would have left >> and arming yourself with a 2x4. >> I didn't have a phone to call 911 and ask her to come back. But you did after the incident. >> Okay. >> Briefly, you did briefly. >> You had a phone in your hand. >> I was going to go to Andrews and call 911. That's what I was going to do. >> Why didn't you call 911 from the cell phone they had? >> You told You told the people you got an emergency. You >> get down 911 in an emergency. >> I honestly don't know what I was thinking, man. >> Well, you can see where I'm having trouble with this, right? There's no knife. There's no cheese. >> He had a knife. >> People are telling me that were there there was no knife. Nobody saw a knife. Nobody even heard the word knife. All of the witnesses that we were hoping to find based on, you know, the people across the way and the video camera, those people didn't see anything. There's no video system. Your video system um is gone now. >> Yeah. Explain that one to me. Where's that at? >> Yours specifically if it was hers or yours. And you said that was her stuff. >> It didn't belong to >> the cameras were yours. The DVR was hers. So why can't she produce it? >> Maybe she will. What's it going to show? Nothing. >> Who knows? >> Well, there's no video cameras. >> None of that in the house, right? >> No. >> It's going to It's going to If there is any audio, >> they can But they can hear it. >> What are they going to hear? You guys are arguing. We already know that. >> You told them. >> No, but that camera can hear it. I can hear the people across the street in the motor home. >> But what's it going to What's it going to is it going to say? Are we going to hear, "Hey, Dennis, put down the knife." >> I I did not say >> drop the knife. >> I did not say that. What' you say? >> Come get some. >> That was when he was up at the top of the flipping yard, not when he was standing in front of me. And I was trying to be intimidating to make him leave. I wasn't trying to escalate the situation. I thought that it was going to make him go away >> with just you and No. No. >> All I have is me. I mean, I had an officer, >> right? But it hadn't worked. It hadn't worked. >> Why are you guys coming down on me like this, man? I mean, I told you everything I knew. Because Dennis is dead. That's why That's why Joe He's still in the hospital. That was the doctor on the phone with Harvard. >> I'm sorry for that, but the man came at me in a threatening way and produced a weapon and I had no other choice. >> I believe that he came at you in a threatening way. There was no knife. It's that >> there may not be a knife. Sorry. There may not be a knife now, but there was a knife in his hand when he came at me. when he was paces away from me and he had a knife in his hand and that resulted in me deciding to swing a board at him. I would not have done that. I would not have swung a board at him. >> Why? >> Because there's no need for me to swing a board at somebody that doesn't have a weapon. >> Unless it's not him. >> If it's somebody younger, then it's okay. >> If it's a younger guy that's a trained fighter, yes. >> Okay. >> If it's somebody that isn't trained in fighting, yes. I think you're having a hard time justifying yourself hitting him because of his age. >> I didn't care about his age at that time. I cared that there was a knife in his hand. >> Well, I warned him to get off my property. I told him to stay away from me. >> Mhm. And he didn't. He didn't do any of those things. Actually, he took it to the next level. I mean, he was coming down the hill. >> Yeah. I I believe all that self-defense. >> I believe all that. >> And it's self-defense whether he had a knife or not. And that's why I can't wrap my mind around why you're making up that he had a knife. >> I'm not making up that he had a knife. I'm telling you the truth. I would not have hit that man with a board, whether he is self-defense or not, if he didn't have a knife. >> He would have let him pummel you instead. I would not have let him pummel me. >> Okay. What would you have done? >> If he had no knife, I probably would have fought him with my >> So, he's just he's down there and he's beating the piss out of you. At what point are you at what point are you going to arm yourself with something? >> I did not think that he was going to be able to beat me up until I was >> says everybody that gets their ass kicked by somebody else. >> Yes. >> Maybe he could have beat me up. I don't know. Maybe the 60-year-old man could have looked my ass. All I know is I saw a knife and it frightened me. >> I was really hoping that we could put our case report together and take it to the prosecutor and go, Joe Richmond feels like he screwed up, but he did this because he was protecting himself. Not Joe Richmond really screwed up and then was dishonest to to us about a knife. I was hoping I could go to the prosecutor and tell Ang to us about the knife. >> I'm not lying to you. >> I'm [clears throat] done. I You're not being honest. >> I've done this for a long time and he's done it twice as long as I have. And we sat across the table with people that have lied to our faces and you're lying about the knife. You had 12 hours to convince yourself that he had a knife before you decided to call law enforcement for help. >> Mistaken on that, man. I swear he had a mistake. I made a mistake by hitting him with a board and leaving. That's my mistake. I hit him and I left there. But I was scared. And that man had a knife in his [ __ ] hand and he came at me. And I'm sorry that man is dead, but I had no other choice. >> So am I, Joe. >> I never wanted to do that. >> I'm sorry that he's dead, too. >> Never meant to hurt anybody. I did not want to fight him. I told him to go away. >> And he didn't. >> And I did. I stood up for myself in self-defense, man. I didn't come at him. He came in me. >> I believe all of that. What he and I do not believe is that he had a knife. He did not have a knife. There was no knife. >> Especially this big ass 14inch knife that you're talking. >> He's been contacted by law enforcement dozens of times over the last year. And he's never had a knife. And all of a sudden he has a knife to to talk to Joe Richmond and help get property back from one of his friends. He decides, you know what? I'm going to bring a sword with me cuz this isn't a knife, right? Knives aren't this big. This is like a sword, dagger, machete looking thing. >> I cannot explain anybody else's actions. >> You can't explain your own action. >> Yes, I can. I told you exactly what I did. Yeah, you did. You told us exactly what you did. Where hold up was what you're saying Dennis did. And I've given you the out that I believe that you have a right to defend yourself whether he has a knife or not. For whatever reason, you're trying to justify it in your own head because you think it makes it sound better for yourself that he had a knife. >> Why you would try to convince me that he didn't? Why are you trying to convince me that he didn't have a knife? >> Because there is no knife. We've got witnesses saying there is no convince you to tell the truth. >> I am telling you the truth, Kurt. I've always been honest with you and straightforward. >> Why is today different, Joe? I'm not lying to you, man. The guy had a knife. >> When you when you and I have dealt with the ground, as a matter of fact, this thing smacked my wall of my house. >> The wall the knife hit. >> Yes. His hand that it was holding it, it smacked the wall of my house. I remember as he fell, his hand hit first with the knife in his hand. And then that's the first time he brought that up. I've been with you since what? Noon today. >> Yeah. And I've been like since like 10 11. >> I told you guys he had a knife. And now if Lonnie and him took it or somebody else or it's laying under my porch or something, I can't explain that. I have not been there except with you guys. I can't record for anybody else's actions but my own. Well, and I can't fathom that >> this man came at me and wanted to hurt me and he clearly stated he was going to kill me and he produced a weapon and I reacted upon that. And I can't get over the fact that if she's pulling out a 14-inch knife with not a black blade, a metallic blade, easily recognizable as a knife that the people be standing right behind him didn't see that. It's impossible. >> They're lying. They're lying. >> And And there's no motive for them for lying. >> [ __ ] They're lying because he had a [ __ ] knife and I would not have hit him with a board if he didn't. >> What possible motive? >> What possible motive? >> I don't know, man. >> How would it change things for them to say one way or another? >> I cannot answer that. >> You think they'd vouch for a guy that just tried to stab another guy? >> Yes. >> Why? >> Because their heat is their friend and they have his back. So you think you think they would vouch for a guy and end up basically a conspiracy? That's what we're talking about. To commit murder against Joe Richmond at that point because they're not they're not talking. They're I don't they apparently disposed of a knife, right? So now they're involved in an attempted murder plot. >> I thought this is the sid track here. Okay. Some lady's house out on Airport Road got broke into and it was Lonnie and Dennis and Veronica knew about it. I got pulled over in the Safeway parking lot. Okay. Because this lady sat outside of Lonnie's apartment waiting to find Lonnie who stole all this property there. >> Does it have anything to do with last night? >> This does have something to prove this. Okay. >> What? >> That their conspiracy? >> Does it have anything to do with proving that Dennis Hagen Botham had a knife? >> Dennis was part of this. >> Does he have Does this story that you're telling have anything to do with Dennis Hagen Botham having a knife in his hand? >> Yes, it does. >> Okay, let's let's >> because Dennis had a night that him and Lonnie broke into that house. >> How do you know? because Veronica, Lonnie, and Dennis clearly stated it. >> And this lady wanted her stuff back. And she sat outside of Lonnie's house wanting her stuff. >> Did this lady see the name? >> I I don't know. I didn't know. >> We could go ask Dennis, but we can't. >> Dennis told me. Lonnie, we were all in the same room. >> And all of the stuff that she stole and Dennis stole out of that house was in Lonnie's apartment. And they had a knife in and Veronica said, "You need to get your stuff out of here because the cops are coming to raid your house." The lady knows you did it. She's sitting outside. She did that on the phone while the cops had us pulled over in the Safeway parking lot because she's got Dennis's back and she's got Lonnie's back. >> I'm confused. You were in the house. He's showing me the knife. He's telling about the knife, but you're at the Safeway parking lot. That was two different >> two different times. Yes. >> But we were just there and they were showing it to me. I just left Lonnie's apartment. >> That's when he showed you the knife. >> He had it on him. Yes. >> And that's the same knife he had yesterday. I don't know if it was the same. >> Where did he have it on him at? >> He had it sitting on the table and it was his. He said >> And how big was that that knife? >> It appeared to be the same one. I mean, I can't tell you for sure if it was, but appeared to be the same one. It's a big knife. >> So, is that where you got this description of this this fitious knife >> from that day? >> No. >> Is that was why it's sticking in your head? >> No. >> Is that what made you think he had a knife on him last night? He had a knife because it was in his hand. >> So you never thought he was had a knife on him the entire time that they were >> I think that everybody that comes at me is going to hurt me. And I pay attention whether they're going to produce a weapon or not. You don't fight fair, you fight to win. That is how they are thinking. >> But that's not how you think. At that time I did. At that time I thought that if he's going to produce a knife, I'm going to hit him with his two. >> No, you just said you don't fight fair. You fight to win. >> That's what they think. >> But you were going to get in a No, then that's just what you just said that you think. >> No, I did not say that. >> What do you think then? >> I think I'd rather not fight. >> So, you think this guy right here is going to is not fighting fair. He's going to fight to win. But you decide, you know what? I'll I'll roll the dice and I'll get in a fist fight with him. >> If he was going to swing at me, I got to fight him with my fists. The minute I saw a blade, I grabbed a knife. I mean, grabbed the board. >> I think you went around the corner. You grabbed the board. You came back thinking that that would intimidate him, which is what you said. You were hoping to intimidate him to leave. I think you brought back the board. He still wasn't intimidated. He continued to walk forward, got in your face, and you hit him in the in the head with the with the 2x4. That's what happened. >> That's the only thing that makes sense. And that's what the witnesses are saying that happened. Separate from each other are saying that happened. >> I don't know if I did that or not. I don't I believe that it was all one thing. He came down. It was all once. >> But it wasn't. It was twice. >> And I can situations people I listen >> I didn't leave. I didn't move. I didn't move from the spot I was in. >> Okay. But you came back around with the 2x4 in your hand. No, the two >> hoping that it hoping right until you picked it up. >> Hoping that it would intimidate him. >> Hoping that it would intimidate him and it didn't. And he kept walking forward to you until he got in your face and you hit him. >> That's not That's not true. >> Could it be? >> That's not That's not what happened. I was standing at the corner of the house where he was, you know, where I showed you and the board was laying right there by the steps and he came at me and I grabbed that board and I hit him with it. I didn't go around. And I didn't move anywhere else. >> Were you hoping to intimidate him with it before he >> I didn't before he got close to you? >> No. >> To try to maybe Hey, look. I have a 2x4. Get away. Get back. What are you thinking? Why are you coming at me still when I have a 2x4 in my hand? And he kept walking towards you. >> I didn't have time to. >> Didn't have time to say anything. >> I didn't have time to say nothing. I mean, if he was coming at me, I mean, if I have if I would have tried to say anything, I would have got stabbed. >> I don't think there's nobody here. >> You do realize how serious this is, right? >> You You have no idea how freaked out I am. What's gonna There's going to be a point in time that you're going to say, "You know what? I want to talk to Kirk and Drew again because I want to I want to set the record straight. >> I've talked to everything that I can possibly think of. >> I hope that you >> I mean, I came I came to you guys >> right 12 hours later after you found out that a guy's in Harborview. Um, >> I didn't know he was a hard >> I really hope that you can convince people better than you've convinced us and better than two ladies can. I mean that because that's what it boils down to, right? A dead guy and two ladies saying the same thing, saying this is what happened. I don't know why Joe is saying this because that that's that's inaccurate and and we're giving you an opportunity right now. dude came at me and I bent down and I grabbed the board and I smacked him as he was pulling out a knife, man. Now I >> So you maybe smack him before he pulled the knife out? >> No, he had it clearly in his hand. I remember his hand hitting the wall, man. With his >> It was more than that. You've said for the last hour and a half that he actually brought it all the way out, had it up. >> Correct. >> He points above his head. He's going to start coming forward and then he That's what he said. I don't know how many times. Soon as he reached in to grab the knife, I grabbed the board and as he's swinging it at me, I smack him with it in the side of the head. And I didn't even, you know, I didn't do it with a baseball like a mean like try to take his head off. It was in one hand and just smacked him on the side of the head. Then you ran into the house, locked the door, grabbed the dog, grabbed the keys, went out the back door in my pocket, but yes, I I grabbed my dog and I ran out the door and I got in the truck. I was scared. They other people were coming at me. Now, whether it was for Dennis or not, at the time I thought it was at me. I did not mean to hurt that guy. I swear to you, I did not mean to hurt him at all. But he was threatening me my life. He had a knife in his [ __ ] hand. I promise you that. Did a thought ever cross your mind that you killed him? >> Yes. I mean, I just I saw him fall and hit the ground and he didn't move >> at all. >> He didn't wiggle. He didn't do nothing. And I thought I just knocked him out, but I mean, the thought did cross my mind that I killed the guy, you know? I mean, he didn't move. I don't know. I was freaked out about it. I sort of ran because these people are coming after me. I thought you could have possibly killed somebody and you had a cell phone in your hand and thought, "Why on earth did you call somebody?" >> I called Andrew for help. Veronica was already on yourself. >> Veronica was already on the phone. >> What were you hoping Andrew would tell you? >> I was hoping Andrew would help me by calming me down, give me some weed to smoke, and let me call 911. I didn't even [ __ ] get my bearings together. I mean, this was a very intense situation. I mean, I never hit anybody because my life was threatening before. I've been in plenty of fist fights and got my ass whooped to whoop somebody else's ass, but I've never hit anybody with a board because they were going to hurt me. I mean, I was ganged up on. I had four people against me. >> No, you had one. The other three were up the hill. They were still within striking distance if one person attacked me. I absolutely should have had all these left there. >> But they were all within striking distance, but not so much that you decided, you know what? I'm just going to get in a fist fight with this guy. >> That's why it makes sense to us that you grabbed a board. >> That makes 100% sense. Like I I I I know that you're having some some moral problems. >> My timeline is wrong. I apologize, but I tell you, it's not just wrong. It's impossible. >> It was so fast for me that that that's exactly how it is. I mean, I don't even know. >> You grabbed the board when you were still yelling at him to leave, to get out of there >> when he was 15 ft from you and he didn't buy in that you were going to do anything with that board and he kept coming at you. He He pulled a knife out and before I even picked up that board, he had a knife in his hand. >> So, >> but you didn't but you didn't know it was a knife. >> Yes, I did. I told you. >> No, you said he made a a motion. That's when you picked up and then you saw that it was a knife. That's what you said. >> Okay. Yes, that's correct. I bent down and picked up the board as he was making the motion, but I did not swing that board at him until I clearly identified that it was a knife in his hand. >> And by that time, he was like coming down. >> Yeah. Had I not hit him, I mean, we're talking a fraction of a second difference between me hitting him and him hitting me. >> So, you assumed that he had a weapon >> when he made this motion and that's why grab it. I assume >> because when we first started, you said you didn't pick up the 2x4 until you clearly saw that it was a knife in his hand. >> No, I No, that's exactly what you said. I said I didn't hit him until >> No, you said I did not bend over and pick that 2x4 up until I recognized the thing in his hand as a knife. And then I said, "So, you're telling me that he went from here to here in the in the same amount of time that it took you to reach down, find the 2x4, grab the 2x4, pick it up, and hit him in the head. That, sir, is impossible." I see your point. So, you can see why we're asking you doesn't tell us the truth. >> As far as it goes, I told it to you, but I mean, then I could be mistaken. All right. But all I know is that man had a knife in his hand and I hit him with a board because of that knife. I would not have hit him with that board if he did not have a knife. So when he went like this and you greased for the board and he pulled out XYZ, what would it have taken for you to hit him? >> You were going to hit him anyways. When he went like this, you were going to hit him anyway. >> I wouldn't have hit him with that board if he didn't have a knife. I would not have done that. I wouldn't I most definitely would not have done that. >> Well, if you would have pulled out a stick, some sort of club, >> and that becomes a weapon. I mean, I'm not going to hit somebody else who doesn't have a weapon with a with a weapon in my hand. I'm not going to do that. And I didn't want to do it either, but he was in the motion of hitting me with a knife. I mean, if he just stood there with a knife in his hand, I wouldn't have swung on him. He was swinging at me. So, a guy standing within arms length away from you, pulls a knife on you and not moving it forward, but just pulled it out to display it. You would have hit him in the head with the board. >> If he' have made a motion at me, yes, I would have. But if he wasn't moving it towards me, then no. >> So, if he would have pulled the knife out and just had it right here, >> I would have been scared. >> And you wouldn't have hit him. >> But I probably would not have hit him. It >> actually take the motion of going forward at you and hit him. Yes. talk to the chief. I got to make sure he knows about Dennis. He's standing here for a minute. >> Yeah, that's fine. >> I'm sorry if I feel like I'm if you feel like I'm being rough on you, but I am I'm really frustrated when I don't I don't think you're being >> You've changed on me, man. I mean, I I told you guys everything. >> That's because what you're telling me. >> I'm sorry that I don't remember exactly every second. I can't provide you on camera. I mean, I'm sorry, >> Joe. The things that you're saying don't make sense. >> I can I could see I I I try to put myself in your shoes. Okay. I I do I can try to picture myself in your front yard with four people that are screaming and yelling at me. And I can tell you what I would do in your situation is if these poor people were screaming and yelling at me and they were told to leave and didn't and I told them to get off my property and they're not, guess what the first thing I'm going to do is? I'm going to reach down. I'm going to find the closest thing to me. And that's where I I don't think >> I should have done that. >> And I think you did. >> I did. >> That's why we're having a problem. >> Well, what's what difference would it have made? Maybe >> make if I left and I came back and got a board and hit him or if I stood right there and got a board, what difference would it have made? >> Because I think >> this guy still came at me with a knife. >> I don't And that's where we're having a problem >> because a knife that size would have had to have been sheathed. There's no the medics, >> you know, everybody keeps their keeps puts their belt on the same way, right? If the sheets would have had to been over here, that means that before the medics got there, girls pulled them away from the house. >> How do you know that there was a sheath >> there? How you're going to stick a knife that big in your pants? >> How do you know that he didn't just have it just chilling in his pocket or something? >> A knife that big. It's not going to sit in your pocket. It's going to be going to cut your >> How do you know it was just between his belt and his pants? >> Would it not cut it? >> I mean, I don't know, man. I don't know. >> I don't either. I can't explain that for you because I wasn't him and I didn't have it. >> And that's the part that you you have to explain. >> How can I explain something that I'm not him. I did not have it in my possession. I'm not the one that helped him put it in wherever he had it. He produced it. That's all I know. I don't know where except for it came from his left side with his right hand. I don't know where he kept it. It could have been in a pocket. It could have been in a sheet. They could have taken it. I don't know. And everything that you told me is consistent from the time that that we met this morning right all the way up until right now. Everything that you're telling me is consistent except for that one little fact which >> did I don't know. >> No, the the the fact of the knife everything all of the fact we can look into everything and everything's consistent. Okay. Throughout the day, except for the knife part, that part does not make sense compared to everything else. >> You can defend yourself. >> It may not make sense that this would happen. >> You can defend yourself on your property if somebody doesn't have a weapon. I think that you are telling us that he had a weapon to help us, I guess, think more of you or or better of you because he had a knife. And it doesn't matter to us. We We're information gathers. We wrap everything up in a package and we send it to the process. >> So I have nothing to hide and I've told you everything I know. >> I have not held anything back. Taken >> I don't think that you've held anything back. I think that you've fabricated the knife part. >> No, I'm telling you the truth on that. >> Does Chief want us to continue giving him opportunities? >> Yeah. Uh, Chief does know about Dennis. Um, >> can I smoke a cigarette? Can somebody give me a cigarette? >> No. No one has any. >> So, here's the deal. I know you've been in trouble, okay? You've been in trouble with me. I I've written it for many a thing over the years. >> This by far goes beyond that. I don't want it. And I didn't mean to do anything deadly to anybody. >> I I agree. I don't think he meant to kill him. >> No, I didn't. >> Okay. >> Meant to have you with >> See, that's intent to [ __ ] hurt me. And he produced a knife. >> Intend to hurt you. I I'll even buy that. I'll even buy that. >> But this is big, Joe. This This is >> I was protecting myself. >> Going to the prosecutor's office. Okay. This whole recording >> is going to go to the prosecutor's office. >> I'm aware. >> All right. You change your story little bits at a time off and on all day. Pretty soon details are coming in. Less details are going out. More details are coming back in. Then you remember this. Then you remember that. >> Tired, man. >> I bet you are exhausted. >> I bet you are. You know what? It's easy to remember the truth. It's hard to remember a lie. >> I've been telling you the exact story the whole time. Man, I'm so mentally exhausted right now. I can't even hardly keep my eyes open. I told you guys over and over again that this guy came at me. And as the minute that he produced a knife and was trying to harm me with it, I harmed him. And it was not to kill him. Do you honestly think you can you sit here and honestly think that a juryy's going to believe your story? It's >> the only shot I have apparently. >> The shot you have is the truth. >> And I've given it to you, Dad. >> You've been in the system a long enough to know. >> I've never been in an interrogation room. >> But you've been in the courtroom, right? >> I take a plea bargain every time. And every time it's for some most of the time it's for stuff I haven't done but I take responsibility for it. >> You've taken responsibility. >> I I say yep. You know what? Even if I haven't done it, I do it. >> So why is today different? >> I have been taking responsibility for it. I told you I hit the man of the board. I didn't mean to kill him. I didn't even mean to [ __ ] put him in the hospital. I meant to [ __ ] mainly keep him from hitting me cuz he was going to hit me with a knife. >> Okay. Hit you with a knife. I think hit me. I think right there you said it because you thought he was going to hit you. >> It was in clear self-defense. Matt, >> because he was going to hit you. >> He was going to hit me with a knife, man. >> Nobody hits anybody with a knife. >> Well, stab me. Whatever, man. >> No, I think the words came out the way they needed to. I think the words that came out the way you meant them. >> Putting words in my mouth. >> I'm not putting words in my mouth. I'm saying what you just said. Those were your words, Carol. >> I'm completely exhausted. I can't even think straight now. I've had no sleep. >> I'm sure this is bugging you. I'm sure this is absolutely burning in your mind. the fact that somebody's dead now. I mean, you come in here and you tell me someone's dead and you expect me to [ __ ] be able to speak clearly. >> I just expect the truth. >> I'm trying my best to give it to you exactly how it happened. >> I'm sorry you guys don't believe me, but that is the truth. >> The man had a knife in his hand. >> I specifically remember seeing it in his hand as I'm going up my stairs. >> Joe, is there anything laying on the ground? Is there anything else you want us to know? >> I don't know. I really can't even think about anything. >> Is there anything else you want to say for the record? >> How's your chance? Everybody's listening to you. >> Clear self-defense, man. The guy was coming at me with the intent to harm me. I mean, it was clear whether he had a knife or didn't have a knife was irrelevant at that time. I picked up a board and produced a knife and so that I did hit him. Okay. Joe, do you hereby declare under the penalty of perjury under the laws of the state of Washington that the statement you just provided is true and correct to the best of your knowledge? >> I believe so. is >> in the 2014 Cle Elum Washington case. Joseph Andrew Richmond was charged with seconddegree murder in the death of Dennis Higin Botham. On February 9th, 2016, Richmond was convicted of seconddegree murder. On February 26th, 2016, Richmond was sentenced to 20 years with 3 years of community custody upon release and later resentencing reductions to the term of confinement. As of the most recent verified court information, 2023 resentencing, Richmond's conviction stood and he remained subject to the adjusted sentence.