You doing okay? >> Mhm. Okay. >> Get some water for myself. If you needed cold water. >> No. >> Or something this day. >> Did you ask him about the >> film? >> What are you talking about? >> Do is this going to be filmed? Because I always appear on the news and from Chris Hayes. >> Well, okay. I don't know about Chris Hayes, but in incidents such as this, okay, to protect you, to protect me, um we're we're going to record it. Okay. Okay. just because um that way, you know, doesn't look like you're hiding anything. It doesn't look like I'm hiding anything. Um >> Okay. Once it did, I just start shooting. And my thought I just moved forward on him and kept shooting. My thought was to try to get past this doorway. >> At what point did you know you hit him? >> I knew I hit him the first time or I thought I hit him the first time, but he just stood there and looked at me. And so I just I was just kept on shooting cuz he was just standing there like so I assumed I hit him cuz I was this close. I was so close. I had shot quite a few times >> before you fell. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Quite a few times. >> If you had to guesstimate how many shots you think you fired? >> I don't know. I did all of them that was in there and I think it was full. >> Do you know how many Do you know how many rounds go in that particular weapon? A woman walks into an interrogation room after shooting a man inside her own home. But instead of looking frightened, overwhelmed, or emotionally shaken. She appears remarkably calm as detectives begin asking simple questions. Something about her story starts to feel strangely calculated. Was this really an act of self-defense? Or was there a much bigger plan hiding beneath the surface? In this interrogation, every answer, every pause, and every carefully chosen word slowly reveals a psychological battle that changes the entire case. >> 911. Where's your emergency? >> Hey, hello. There's someone breaking in my house. Help. >> What's the address you're at? >> Well, can you give you what you >> No, I'm not getting in the CAR WITH YOU. NO. ADDRESS. >> Get out. Get out. Get out. What's the address you're at? >> I have somebody breaking. >> No. No. >> Hello. >> No. Please be seated. We're on the record and we'll call the case of State of Missouri versus Pamela Hup. Case number is 21L6 CR0000680. My name is Gregory Alsbury. I'm an associate circuit judge for Lincoln County. Is up. This is your initial appearance. I'm going to be addressing you regarding a criminal case that was recently filed. I want to remind you first of all that you have the right to remain silent. You don't have to say anything at all at any time about these allegations. Anything that you do say can be used against you. The state filed a felony complaint. This was filed on July 12th, 2021. In that complaint, the state alleges in count one that in violation of section 56502 revised statutes of Missouri that you committed the class A felony of murder in the first degree punishable upon conviction under section 56502 revised statutes of Missouri in that honor about December 27th, 2011 in the county of Lincoln state of Missouri that after deliberation you knowingly caused the death of Elizabeth Faria by stabbing. State alleges also in count two that in violation of section 571015 revised statutes of Missouri that you committed the felony of armed criminal action punishable upon conviction under section 571015.3 in that honor about December 27th 2011 in the county of Lincoln state of Missouri. you committed the felony of murder that is charged in count one and that you committed the foregoing felony of murder with and through and with the knowing use, assistance, and aid of a deadly weapon. We have uh two matters to briefly discuss at this time. council, we will need to schedule a preliminary hearing and uh unless uh there's some reason that we should not do it. I intend to schedule out within 30 days, that's something that we can uh talk about in a scheduling conference afterward. Also, I see that the state has filed a motion to dismiss count two. I suggest we talk about scheduling of uh hearing on that as well uh at our scheduling conference. Okay. >> All right. Um, [clears throat] and I will enter an order today. Is there anything else for the state? >> Nothing further from the state. >> Okay. Anything for the defense, >> judge? Just for the record, I believe that Miss Huff has a right under rule 33 to have her bond reviewed in seven days. We would wave that since she is currently in the Department of Corrections. So, we do not need to have her bond reviewed in seven days. >> Thank you. And that's noted for the record. All right. Uh, if there's nothing else, the court will be in recess. >> Thank you. try to catch you to protect me. Um, we're we're going to record it, okay? Just because um that way, you know, doesn't look like you're hiding anything. doesn't look like I'm hiding anything. Um >> Okay. >> That way I don't misconstrue something you say down the road, you know, like I misinterpret something you said or I thought you said one thing and you actually said it. So, >> okay. So, again, I appreciate you coming up here and talking to us. Um I know that you wanted to come up here instead of um talk the scene, which is great. Um I guess is there just out of curiosity, is there a reason why you came up? Is it cooler here or something? >> No. The officer said that I'd have to go back to here to repeat everything. >> Oh, okay. Okay. So, >> I didn't I didn't want to, but >> Pamela's case is an excellent example of the dark triad in psychology, which consists of three personality traits: narcissism, mchavelianism, and psychopathy. Mchavelianism in simple words means when someone is sneaky and manipulative, willing to trick others to get what they want. In this clip, you can see her manipulation working right away. Notice how she seems disinterested, like she would rather be anywhere else than be here. This seems to be her way to make sure she is not coming off as guilty from any angle. But the detectives listen with intent because A, she is not a suspect yet. B, they are trying to build a rapport with her. >> Well, I appreciate you coming up here with us, okay? And we'll take you home. Um, >> I just want to go anywhere but there. >> Anywhere but there. So that's fine to come here. >> Fair enough. Fair enough. >> Apologies for this interruption, but notice how Pamela interrupts the detective. You have to remember that she is someone who has successfully fooled multiple detectives, prosecutors, judges, and a jury already. So this has more or less become a hobby for her. Her confidence, the way she seems to take charge of the conversation, and the fact that she knows her story has to be plausible from the very beginning are enough to prove her mastery of manipulation. So, um I miss I don't know much um about you. You keep throwing out these names and stuff like that. So, I'm I'm trying to stay on top of all this, but I guess let's let's start with um I really want to find out what happened today. So, I'd like to get a very detailed account of like what happened today. And really what I'd like to do is if um if at all possible, probably start maybe maybe like last night, you know, let's like work the 24 hours beforehand and and work all the way through the incident. make sure there's nothing that you saw or heard or something that might have happened or or something like that. I don't want to miss anything. So, let's let's try to go back like 24 hours or so. Maybe yesterday afternoon lunch. >> Okay. >> Um and let's work our way forward. >> Yesterday, I went to Best Buy and um purchased some items and talked to the general manager there about getting a job for my nephew. Went home, got my nephew, said to bring him up, brought him up there. He talked to him for a little bit. We came back and we filled out some applications online. Um went to Taco Bell, had lunch. Um then I went home and then >> So what time did you go to Best Buy, did you think? >> If you had to guess. >> Well, I was there right when it opened. So I think that's 10:00 because we had to wait in the parking lot a few minutes. >> Okay, perfect. >> So I think it was 10:00. >> St. Peters. >> Uh yeah, by the mall. >> Mhm. >> Perfect. And um I was there, like I said, came all the way back to Fallon, got my nephew, went back up there, stayed up there a little bit, then we came back, had lunch. I dropped him off. Oh, dropped him off. We filled out applications, three applications for Best Buy, the instructions he had given us. And then I went home and then um walked my dog, fed him, did all that kind of stuff. My husband came home. We had I left and I went to shop and save at 3:30. Okay. >> It may seem rather insignificant what Pamela did the previous day, but during an interrogation, such seemingly trivial questions are very important. They can help establish the basic body language of the subject. Here, we notice how she doesn't meet the detective's eyes very often, how she seems to be randomly playing with something in her hand, and even casually wipes off the table. In a nutshell, she looks bored and her response seems rehearsed. The detectives can analyze changes in her basic body language to understand which questions trigger her more and when she's most vulnerable. Then she speaks for 6 to 7 minutes describing her daily activity, but hesitates. I was going to go back to the mall. So I came home cuz I knew I had to let the dog out then. So I came home, let the dog out. So, you went by I'm sorry. You went by whose house? >> My daughter who lives off of Sarah. >> Go ahead. I'm trying to mean to interrupt. >> Um, >> you said she lives off of what? >> Um, you take First Capital. I don't want people to say it on TV. >> I I understand. >> She's a teacher, so I don't She don't need that. Um, off of First Capital. um and she wasn't there. >> Now, this makes it evident that Pamela is very aware that she's being recorded and all her responses are well calculated. >> I just drove down the street. She wasn't there. >> Sure. >> Um so, um >> So, you said circle back and went home. >> Yeah. I just want I got caught the or came back down and went through um just cut through where Lynon Wood is. She lives right there. Cut through there and got on the highway and went home. [snorts] >> Okay. >> And then what? >> Um I got home, opened up the garage, pulled in, got my dog, walked him out in front so we could go pee. And he did. He did his thing. Um, went back, put him inside, gave him a treat, [clears throat] came back out. I was going to run back up to the mall. Uh, I was supposed to pick up a purchase that I from Best Buy. Had to make an appointment. My appointment's Friday. I was going to run up there, see if I could get it early. Um, so I was going to run back up there. And as I I started pulling out and got halfway out, I noticed as I was backing out that a car came down really fast down the cross street and whipped around right in front of my driveway cuz I'm right at the end. Here's the cross street and here's my driveway. So they came out and did this right in front of my driveway. And I looked up because it was so fast and startling and somebody jumped out and I was like, "Wow, somebody I don't know what I thought. Somebody was hurt. I don't know what was going on. It was so fast." And then he ran up. I was halfway out the drive where I was parked and he jumped in my car. I opened up the door and jumped in my car. >> Which door? >> The uh passenger >> front or back? >> Oh, front. >> Passenger front. Go ahead. >> And um he had a bunch of stuff in his hands. I don't know what he had, but he had a knife also, but he had something in his other arm. I don't know what he had. And um he put a knife and kept going um just yelling random stuff like, "You're going to take me to the bank." >> Most people who survive a deadly encounter struggle to describe what happened. Their memories are fragmented, their emotions are raw, and their voices often reflect the trauma they just experienced. But this interrogation unfolds very differently. The suspect remains composed, provides detailed explanations, and repeatedly tries to control the narrative while detectives quietly test every part of her story. The deeper they dig, the more the conversation shifts from a simple self-defense claim into one of the most psychologically fascinating interrogations you'll ever see. >> Take me to the bank. You're going to take me to the bank. He put a knife up to my throat there and was yelling stuff. And um he kept looking behind him like this. So I didn't I had put it in gear and I was thinking how I was going to get out of there when he was looking and he kept yelling coming back. And then he looked back again and I hit his arm with the knife and then shot out of the car and ran inside. >> Okay. So, you were I just want to make sure I understand. So, you were you'd already been home, fed the dog, gave him a treat, and you were getting ready to leave. So, when you when you got home, did you leave the car in the driveway or did you pull in the garage? >> I was in the garage. >> So, you pulled the car all the way in? >> Yes. >> And then you got out and you tied it to the dog. No, I did not pull it in the garage. I always pull it in the garage when I'm going to stay. But no, I stayed right there because I was leaving. >> Okay. So, right where it was. So, it was still running. Yeah. I just ran into to let him out. >> Okay. So, you were only in the house just a couple more. >> Oh, not even a couple minutes. Just not. >> Okay. So, then kind of rush through that. I just want to make sure I understand. So, you went in, you let the dog out, you gave him a treat, you're ready to leave again. So you come back out of the house. How did you exit the house? How? >> Out the same door. >> Same door. Okay. >> Yeah. I let him in the same door cuz the front door was locked. >> Okay. >> So I was coming in. I come in and out that door. Um came out that door, got back in the car. >> Okay. >> To go again. >> Okay. >> And that's when the car shot around and somebody jumped out. Before I knew it, they were sitting next to me. >> Okay. So let's first describe the car. Can can you give a description of the vehicle? >> Well, I wasn't really paying attention to the vehicle. More of the um shriekness of their tires that they did. It was a just a silver um wasn't as small as like a little Toyota. A little bit bigger, but not a big one sedan. It was four-doors. >> So, four-door mid you say midsize. Is that >> Yeah, probably midsize. Wasn't brand new. Um, I mean, as you reflect back, do you remember anything anything specific about other than being silver, being four-doors, anything on you said it wasn't that new? >> It wasn't like shiny like you could tell it was like my crash. I just had a 2004 Honda kind of like older like that, you know? Not that it was piece of crap or anything, but it was Yeah, >> it was a veteran car. >> Yeah. Grocery getter. And um it was getting weird and it was like cuz they tore around and he popped out and I'm like my first thought was did I know him because they did it so fast but then I was like and I looked back down and next thing I knew he was there. So [snorts] >> okay. So as I I was I was up there for a few minutes and I noticed that there was an orange car parked on the street. >> That's my next door neighbor's >> next door neighbor's car. Okay. I wasn't sure. I didn't know where >> broke down. >> Okay. >> So, I'm trying to remember how your street is. Which way did the So, if you're sitting in your car pointed at the >> garage, which way did this car come from? >> Um, right here, the right side that that little street there. I don't know what it's called. >> So, the street behind you. >> Behind me? Yes. >> Is the way I And I'll probably have you draw it out later, but So, not so behind you. I know what you're talking about. I remember being >> it's almost it's directly behind my neighbor's driveway when I'm went over. So I can I could see them whip around come out of there and all they did was come right around right to my house. >> Okay. So he jumped out of the car. He jumped into the passenger front side of your car. >> Mhm. >> And >> where does he jump out of the silver car from? >> I don't know. They asked me that. I really wasn't paying attention. I I want to say the back seat, but that may not be true. >> There was a driver. All I saw was a driver. Um because he squealled away, so I was like, "What the hell?" And he looked >> What was the most distinctive thing about the driver that you remember? >> Dark hair. It was kind of like a buzzcut um and dark skin like um Hispanic, maybe something like that. What crosses my mind? I don't know. It could be anybody. I don't know if they were Hispanic, but um that's what crossed my mind. >> Okay. So, you got a we got somewhat of a look at the driver. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, the guy squealled away before >> before he Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth. At what point did he get out? Did he squeal away? >> Well, >> with with in in comparison to what the other guy was doing, >> right? As soon as he pulled around and I wasn't looking again, I looked back down to put, you know, to get ready to go and stuff. And um I pulled around and I looked up again. The guy had shot out. When he pulled around, the guy like shot out and I looked down again and thought. >> She's getting repetitive and almost fumbles, but the manipulator in her does not let her confidence crumble yet. >> Kind of strange. I don't even know if I thought it was strange, but it was weird. And so I looked up again as he was getting out and he squealled right off. The guy squealled right off like >> So what if anything did he say? >> He said, "You're going to take me to the bank and get Russ's money. We're going now, so get going." Type stuff. And he just kept yelling stuff like that at me. And um so at this time I still don't I don't have it in gear or anything like or I do have it no I don't have it in gear and I had put it in gear to go because I didn't know what to do and then I that's when I noticed he was looking back. I don't know what if he was looking because cars I don't know what he was looking at but he kept looking back and I noticed that. So I put it back in the gear and he said get going right now we're going to the bank. And then he looked back again like this and I hit his arm and I shot out of the car. >> So when you say I put it back in the gear, >> you mean you put it back in park? >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Okay. >> So my plan was to get out of the car somehow. >> Now you will watch her describe the victim and notice how detailed she is. >> And now forgive me. I I have not I did not go in the scene. I have not been in the scene. So is he a white male, black male, Hispanic male? >> He's white male. >> White male. um who's taller than me. Um he had blue gym shorts on um and some sort of t-shirt and sandy blonde hair and I want to say his eyes were blue, but I'm not sure. It's not like they were like a bright blue or anything like that noticeable, but I want to say they were light colored eyes. They weren't brown. >> Okay. >> I don't think I could be wrong. I really wasn't looking at his face. [snorts] >> Notice anything any smells? He didn't. No, he didn't smell. The only thing I noticed was is he's yelling and getting more and more upset. He was sluring his words. I thought he was drunk. I didn't smell anything at all. But he did have I don't know what he had with him, but he kept like the more he kept repeating himself, he was getting all excited and he was I thought he was drunk or on drugs or something like that because I couldn't understand him half the time. >> He was yelling crap. I couldn't even understand. >> At first glance, this sounds like a straightforward case of self-defense. A woman claims an armed intruder forced his way into her home, leaving her with no choice but to pull the trigger. But as detectives patiently revisit every second of her story, small inconsistencies begin to emerge. None of them prove anything on their own. But together, they slowly transform the entire investigation into something far more disturbing. I thought he was drunk or on drugs or something like that because I couldn't understand him half the time. >> He was yelling crap. I couldn't even >> There's one thing investigators often pay close attention to during an interrogation. It's not just what a person says, but how they say it. In this interview, the suspect calmly describes a deadly shooting with remarkable detail while detectives quietly compare each answer against the evidence. The more comfortable she becomes, the more revealing the conversation appears. What starts as an interview gradually becomes a psychological examination of every word, every pause, and every decision. >> I didn't notice like greasy hair like a homeless person or anything like that. >> Um, [snorts] he just looked like a normal person to me. >> I mean, it wasn't clean cut like like you guys, like you're groomed. Mhm. >> Of course, it begs the question, I I don't know that we've just asked you straight. Have you ever seen this guy before? >> No. >> Don't know him. Um does it look like somebody you've seen somewhere before with somebody else? I mean as you as you remember back you know as you picture him in your mind um there there is you cannot make any link between this guy and and you. >> No I mean I wasn't looking directly at his face. I was trying not to look at him. I do know when he did get in there was something familiar about him, but I don't know him. So, I don't know if I I don't know. He seemed familiar like I should know him, but I do not know him. >> And forgive me if Kevin asks this. Did he have I know you say he's a Caucasian male, >> but did he have any type of accent that was noticeable to you? I didn't know because he was he was bumbling, slurring, and at first I didn't really notice anything. But like said, he was getting so excited and stuff. He as he was yelling at me, I mean, it was like he was drunk. I mean, he was I literally like his tongue was this thick. I didn't know what was going on. I figured he was on something, alcohol or something. I didn't know. I I knew something was not right because as he was getting excited, it was getting worse. But he said one phrase inside made no sense. He said, you know, I think he said it out in the garage or out in the car, too. Um something about killing my wife. Some like I didn't say anything, but it was weird. >> Pamela is trying everything in her power to blame Russ for this staged attack. Killing his wife can easily be related to Russ's wife, Betsy. >> And he was yammering stuff again about killing me again. My focus was to get in the house. I knew I had my phone in my pocket. I was trying to dial 911. I think I did it three times before it went through on my cell phone. By then, I was inside and he was trying to get the door. I was trying to hold the door. I couldn't get it locked then. And I was trying to get 911 on the phone and he was saying stuff and then the door flew. He got in, it flew open and I ran into the bedroom. He was yelling stuff and as I was going in the bedroom, something again about killing my wife. Him and Stevie. Me and Stevie, you're going to kill your wife. And so I don't know who that is. I don't know a Steven or a Stevie or Steve. I don't know what he was talking about. He was so then so but it was really hard. It's like his sentences weren't formed by then. >> And so none of it made any sense. But he did keep saying get in the car. I ran in the bedroom. I tried to, you know, I shut that door. I was trying to get it locked. Wouldn't latch. Got a problem with the door. And um I got my gun, turned around, got my gun. I stand right there and he was pounding on the door. And once it flew open, that's when I shot him. And I just kept shooting him because he just kept standing there. >> How many times did you say you pulled the trigger? >> I unloaded the whole gun. >> Okay. So you pulled the trigger until it stopped fire. >> I just kept calling till it stopped cuz everybody kept saying that's a little gun and blah blah blah and I couldn't rec. So once that door opened and he was there, I just started shooting and walking towards him till I didn't have any more. >> Within the first few minutes of this interrogation, detectives noticed something. they can't ignore. The suspect has just described a deadly encounter. Yet, her emotions don't seem to match the gravity of the situation. Instead of rushing to accuse her, they allow her to keep talking. Because sometimes the most revealing evidence isn't found at the crime scene. It's hidden inside a carefully constructed story. >> Let me get You know what? I'm going to step out for a second, get some white pieces of paper, and I'll be right back. So, sit right when >> Should I tell him or just wait? >> Just hold on. It's just paper piece of paper. It's easier to visualize it if we're seeing it actually drawn. >> You good on water? >> Yeah. >> Okay. What type of gun? What type of gun do you I mean you was in the nightstand. >> You said it was a little gun. I didn't know. >> I say 32. >> Is that a gun? >> It's got a >> maybe a 380. Well, maybe that's it. I just got for Christmas last year. >> Okay. >> This interrogation wasn't solved through intimidation or aggressive questioning. It unfolded through patience. Every answer was allowed to breathe. Every silence was given meaning, and with every passing minute, investigators quietly tested whether the suspect's version of events could survive its own details. By the end of the interview, the biggest question wasn't what happened. It was whether any part of the story could still be trusted. >> Did you have a sexual relationship with Betsy Faria? >> On what basis was what to you? >> Did you ever tell law enforcement officials that you and Betsy were having sexual relationship? >> I did. She had a mad crush on me. She [snorts] really, really, really loved me. Loved me at that time and it just kept growing from that. So, it's rather interesting to note that her own false confidence and self-image curtails her senses. For example, if we were lying about this situation, we would probably pretend to care and act scared about the fact someone is after our life, pretend to show remorse that we just killed a man, and finally pretend to act like we did not enjoy it. But Pamela can't even think about these basic things. >> So, [clears throat] that's your first time. You used I guess your fingers aren't working. >> No, they work. >> Just couldn't get through 911, though. >> It wouldn't go. I mean, get my phone. >> Well, actually, um, that's actually I'm glad you brought that up because Do you mind if we take a look at your phone and see because I I would love to see what the 911 call >> bring it in here because I'd like to see, too. >> Well, it's out on the desk, but we'll >> Yeah, I would see how many times I dialed. >> Yeah, I'm just cur I just wanted to >> I would say a couple times I dialed it trying to get through. I could see it wasn't going through. I couldn't hear anybody. So, I would just hang up, try again, try again. And I'm just And he's bumping me on the door and stuff. So then he just was once I got them I was focused on that and he pushed it open. I don't remember all I remember and just kind of blanked out there is that once that door flew open cuz I was so hoping it wouldn't. Once it did I just start shooting and my thought I just move forward on him and kept shooting. My thought was to try to get past this doorway. >> At what point did you know you hit him? I knew I hit him the first time or I thought I hit him the first time, but he just stood there and looked at me and so I was just kept on shooting because he was just standing there like so I assumed I hit him cuz I was this close. I was so close. >> So you're legitimately >> I'm walking at him. >> So the first time you shot him, would you say you're further than this away from him? Me and you >> maybe this far. So, and the >> be from here to you >> and the door opens out. The door open. >> It opens into the bedroom. >> Okay. So, yeah. So, if I was coming in your bedroom, it would open this way or this way. >> Towards me. Yes. So, I'm standing here and in one of these positions here in front of the door. It swings open. I'm standing there. I'm ready. Okay. >> And it swings open and we're just eye to eye. And I just start shooting and walking forward cuz my first thought was to get past this door jam. >> Okay. Didn't even think about I'm shooting him, hitting him. Wasn't thinking about that. I knew I had to get around this person and get back out somehow. >> At what point did he fall? Do you remember? >> I had shot quite a few times >> before you fell. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Quite a few times. >> If you had to guess at how many shots you think you fired? >> I don't know. I did all of them that was in there and I think it was full. >> Do you know how many Do you know how many rounds go in that particular weapon? Six. >> I'm guessing. The interrogators are employing a technique called the questions and answers method. By continuously posing questions, investigators can uncover inconsistencies and gauge her reactions. But Pamela has done this interrogation bit before and gotten away with a crime. So, she knows what she's doing. The usage of phrases like, "I don't know, I don't remember, maybe, can't swear by it," are keeping her safe even now. Despite her emotionless and almost cheerful mood, it cannot be confirmed that she is in fact guilty. >> And when you stepped over him, he wasn't moving. Did you make any observations of him when you stepped over him? >> No. No. I was worried about getting my dog getting out of there. All I knew is he was down and he wasn't moving as far as I could tell or saying anything. So, that was good for me at that point. >> Do you know I mean do you know where where you hit him? I mean, was were you I mean, did you take any right here? I was going right for the mass. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I know. I'm not good enough shot to shoot you in the head cuz I was too >> When's the last time you went to the range before this? >> I've never been to the range. >> Are you you I'm sorry. You and your husband go out shooting, you said? >> Yeah. Um that was last fall. Last fall. >> So about a year ago almost. Quite shot. Just shy of a year. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Okay. >> So that's the first time you shot >> I grew up shooting. No, I grew up shooting. >> Oh, was that the first time you shot that gun? Yes. Yes. >> Pamela is showing the signs that most killers exhibit. Thirst for acknowledgement. Watch how happy she gets when her technique is given a minor recognition. She is her biggest fan. >> Here's another question for you. I have because it's it's unusual. Here's what I say. without some type of tactical training or military training, law enforcement training is to fire and then approach the >> target. Where did you learn that >> or is that >> I mean what one reason I asked is I mean when you and your husband go out does he besides the shooting do you guys work on tactical movement or something like that? Oh, >> you >> we just used a target on a tree. >> Okay. >> The because my thought was get the hell out of that room is what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be pinned in that small space cuz my room's really small because there just was no way to get out. If he got in, I wasn't getting out. So to walk forward at him partially was I wanted to get out of that room and partially was I wanted to be sure I hit him. >> And he was not advancing at that point. >> You were >> I was advancing. >> Yes. But he was >> No. Well, he had just he had just knocked the door open and I started shooting. Okay. And I'm walking as I'm shooting. >> Right. >> So because when I as soon as that happened and I shot he just nothing. So, I didn't even think I hit him because he just stood there then and I just kept shooting and then I went my dog was running all over the place and >> now here's when the detectives dive deep into Pamela and Russ's history with each other. >> Okay, I'm trying to think of all the any more details here. >> Okay, go ahead. Obviously, there's some history with with past things and that's why they said they wanted Russ's money. Correct. They said something about Russ going to the bank. >> Kind of got to dig in a little bit. >> He said at one point the money that I stole from Russ at one point in the car, you know, because he kept saying, "We're going to the bank. You're getting Russ's money." And I'm like, >> "Get out of my car. Who are you? What are you talking about?" At first, I didn't even know what the hell he was talking about. And at one point, he had said, "The money you stole from Russ." >> When I step, you guys discuss that all kind. >> Uh, no. I mean, >> I think I told one of the other officers. >> Okay. >> He had said that at some point and that and still it didn't click with me. I was just worried about getting out of there and what the hell. The guy was so thick tongmed that even when he said stuff, it took with everything going on and how he was talking a second for like, what the hell is this guy talking about? It just was so mumble jumble. It didn't make sense. Some of them weren't complete sentences. Um, it was frightening. Can not to get too personal here, but can you kind of fill me in fill us in >> in on the financial aspect of the BIA stuff and where all that stands now? >> Um, she had signed over me as beneficiary and I was paid out >> how much 150,000. >> Okay. >> And I still have that 150,000. >> Okay. And that's known to people that I still had the 150,000 because broadcasted that because at one point when I was talking to prosecutors up in Lincoln County, she kept going, "Do you have that money? Can I see your account?" You know, whatever. And I just brought it up to her in cash and gave it to her. And so when I was at trial for it, >> you I'm sorry to interrupt you. That was the judge asking for that or the prosecutor >> prosecutor. She was asking to see if I still had She goes, "Do you still have them?" And I said, "Yeah." And she goes, "Well, can you show me that you still have it?" Whatever. >> So, you brought her and I did and I brought up a bag and I gave it to her and I had cash on it. >> In 2014, Betsy Faria's daughters, Leah and Maria Day, had sued Pamela over the life insurance money of $150,000. Despite all their efforts, they lost the case to their mother's killer, Pamela. As the interrogation proceeds, Pamela is trying to strategically steer the conversation in a way which would make the detectives question Russ's role in this whole ordeal and how she was being nice. >> She goes, "Well, I want to change my beneficiary to you." Well, I want my kids to have it. I don't want Russ to have it. >> If Betsy thought she didn't have anything else in the world, she would want me to have whatever she had. In her view, I was rich in her eyes. She'd always tell me I was rich. She thought I was rich. She wished she was rich like me. I wasn't rich. >> The end of her life, she was somebody that didn't have much in the way of financial resources. Is that fair to say? >> He just got out. >> So he he had just been released when you went back to trial for the daughters. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> So he knew the cash story and he knew because he was sitting behind us at the trial that I still had the money. >> Okay. And right after um after that um the place I don't think he knows this but the place where I had my hair done um him and his cousin went there and confronted a hairdresser there. >> Was this on film? >> Yeah. And the police were called and everybody Yeah. And >> because somebody wrote something on Facebook as violent he is. And they came and were screaming at this poor girl because they didn't like what she wrote. And I know there was a gun involved with the owner. They everybody was getting that worked up and stuff. The police were called. I don't know what happened to it. >> When the last time have you ever any conversation with him through any medium, social media, phone in person with Russ >> at the um girls trial in January? um he was there and he's just kept lurking around and all that and um we kind of ran into each other going to the bathroom and stuff on a break and I said to him, "Oh, congratulations on your release." I don't know what to say to him. I was just being nice and uh he said, "Oh, thanks." And that was it. And turned around, walked away. He had like his cousin left on just his cousin, the same cousin that confronted this hairdresser. So, um, that's the last time I've seen him or and that's we didn't really speak. We just said that. Nice. >> Let's take a second and talk about Russ, whose already sick wife was mercilessly murdered by someone. He knew Pamela did it. Then, he was framed for her death by the murderer herself. Imagine the trauma and grief. Now, just after he gets out of the jail, he receives a text from Pamela congratulating him for being out of jail when she was the reason he was in there in the first place. It's a clear sign of narcissism which involves constant validation and attention. Pamela may be dismissive or indifferent to the emotions of those around her. And due to the psychopathic aspect in her personality, she even enjoys others pain. >> When you knock the gun out of or the knife that do you know did it fall out of his hand or did it stay in his hand? >> I hit it as hard as I could or hit him and I think it fell. >> Okay. >> In my mind it fell. Okay. >> Didn't stop to look. I at the same time opened the door and just ran out. >> I know we just talked at length about about what happened um today. >> We just did one of those. >> Where? >> In the ambulance. >> Okay. Um was it as detailed as what we've just discussed here? >> I think so. Yeah. >> You think so? Okay. You know what I'll do? I'm going to go track it down. Okay. I'll I want to read through it and maybe might have you come back and clarify some things for me if the if the statement wasn't too terribly clear. Okay. Um you said you haven't eaten any lunch or anything. Is it are you hungry or you're okay? >> Okay. Is your water okay for now? >> You good? >> Okay. Give us a few minutes and we'll be back. Okay. >> Pamela is left alone in the room for some time. According to the read technique, investigators can do this to either regain emotional control after a heavy interrogation session or discuss further strategies. In Pamela's case, however, they may have done this to check the authenticity of her statements with respect to the Russia case. Such breaks also build pressure on the subject. In this case, watch how the investigator has to keep her engaged so that she doesn't ask for a lawyer. >> How are you doing? I'm going to I'm going to go to the restroom real fast and then I'll be right back. Um, you good? Anything I can get you? I stepped on for a second. It's supposed to get my husband. >> Yeah. I think >> should I uh Detective Wolf is going to go down or Sergeant Wolf is going to go down there and talk about >> Can I call my lawyer? >> Yeah. >> Do I need my lawyer up here? >> Do you? >> Well, how long am I going to be up here? >> You're up here voluntarily. >> No, I know. But >> we're not holding you. >> No, I know. But how long? They're going to kill me if I don't have one just because of everything that's been going on. Should I call them or should or are we going to be here much longer? >> Okay. You are here. You are here of your own free will. Okay. You have to make those decisions for yourself. I can't No, let me let me tell you what what we still have left to do. Okay. Um, you know, in this incident, um, we need to make sure that we can separate your DNA from his DNA. So, what we'll do is once we get a search warrant and all that stuff at the house, we'll swap him for DNA and then, um, they'll do swabs in the house and and that kind of thing to make sure that he wasn't inside your house somewhere else or doing something that they should have been doing. on in the flip side, we also get your DNA because we want to make sure that we don't confuse like that we know whose DNA is in the house. Okay. Um so we were going to do that. Two, um we were going to what else? Oh, we need we're going to take photographs uh we were going to have uh county ID come up and take photographs of you just showing your injuries or lack thereof or you know what, you know, just to show in case tomorrow some bruising appears, you know, we can document the stages of whatever happens going forward. Okay. And then three. Um, and so yeah, so I'm going to get some forms for the consent for the DNA for a swab. And the swab is it's like a Q-tip, rub it inside the cheek. I put it in a box, seal it away. I do one on each side of the cheek. And then it gets to the lab. And his DNA will be sent to the lab. Your DNA will be sent to the lab. And then any swabs we take from his vehicle showing that his DNA was on the knife, those types of things. Um, and so we just want to make sure that we have all that done. Okay. Um, and then what else am I missing? Oh, the phone. Uh, your phone. If he has a phone on him, uh, we'll do a search war on his phone and see who he's been talking to. Uh, who's been contacting him. Uh, with your consent, we would like to to glance to your phone. Um, you know, just make sure that you weren't getting any calls or, you know, there there isn't anything going on on your end of the phone. Um, and that helps us clear you, uh, you know, of no, you making sure that you don't know this guy and this guy doesn't know you and those sort of things. So, those are just steps that we have to take in the investigation. Okay. Um, [sighs] another thing I wanted to ask you was, um, I guess your husband told the officers of a of a subject who was, um, sitting on the sewer, yesterday, maybe thought subject was sitting on the sewer. Um, not doing much of anything. At some point he I don't know if the guy knew that your husband was there or in the area, whatever, but he just kind of like stood up. >> He never looked back and he walked away. So I guess my question for you is do you recall recently coming the recent hours, days, uh weeks um of anything that's occurred around your house? >> There happened uh me and my husband were leaving our house. I guess it's been a month ago and there was and I couldn't even tell you. It was a light color vehicle. I wasn't really paying attention. I did notice the person in it. Like I couldn't describe him, but it was the same person. And I said to my husband, I go, "That car, what is that car keeps I think that car is casing me is what I said." And he blew it off as a joke. But I kept seeing it like couple days in a row. It was parked and then it would just drive off. >> Okay. >> And I said that to him. That's been about a month ago. >> Okay. So nothing for the last month. >> Okay. Okay. And then you didn't see this guy sitting on the sewer? >> No. >> You didn't see anybody else creeping around the house or anything like that? >> Okay. Yeah. Again, uh Sergeant Wolf is down there talking to your husband right now. Um you know, like I said, you're here. You're here voluntarily to talk to us to help us get through this. Okay. Um you know, we're not holding you here. Um but you you're the way I look at it is you're helping me. So um >> then the detectives take DNA samples from her and read out the statement to her. She starts joking around and seems to think that her charm is working on the officers. Her narcissistic tendencies inhibit her from realizing that people can see her for what she is. A clear, remorseless psychopath. >> So, did that sound? >> Pretty much. Yeah. >> Well, I mean, pretty I read that I tried to read that word for word. >> No, that is I mean that's exactly what happened. It wasn't as detailed probably as you as >> we talked about stuff out of me, but >> Well, we also went back to yesterday. So, um, okay. So, right now, I think the one thing that we would be waiting on is to have somebody come up here and take photographs of you. Um, if you want to walk around or do whatever, you're free to do so. Um, we I mean, we would like you to hang around just so we could get that, you know, get that done. And if there's anything that comes up, but once we get in the house, we might have additional questions. I don't know. Um, so we'd like you to hang around. Um, >> I got a comment if I don't have my phone. Well, where are you going to go? >> I don't know yet. >> Will you probably be with your husband? >> Yeah. >> How about call your husband? >> Get that look. >> Do we have um >> Do we have his phone number? >> You're the smart one, aren't you? >> I'm playing. I'm playing. You always look like you're the goof. Um yes, I'll probably need another water. It's cold. >> It's closed. I mean, don't go. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. >> Yep. >> And I'm just messing with you because you always look like you're kidding around. >> I only look like I was kid around that one time there. Right. >> Just the ones. >> All right. [snorts] >> She was chit cchatting with the detective for a long time talking about how beautiful Naples is, what kind of work it takes to manage a business of flipping houses. Her conversations were so casual and lacking in empathy that they did not even hint at the fact that there was a dead man lying cold in her own house. Then she starts talking about her dead mother. >> But I'll say this, I I appreciate you coming up here today and being as open with us as you have. [clears throat] >> I know there's other things you guys are going to be doing today, but I appreciate it. >> Not really. I actually feel safer up here. >> Yeah. I didn't know what to do when I was in the um driveway and stuff like safe wise cuz I kept thinking she kept saying they're they're coming they're on their way and I kept thinking you were going around the corner around the corner and it never happened. So I didn't know what to do and then once they put me in the ambulance I felt a lot better. >> Good. And then the ambulance people treat you all right. >> Oh yeah. >> The policemen were nice and everybody was nice. It just I feel bad I when I talk I'm so scrambled because I can't help it. >> What's up? >> My whole family's here. We came back when my father died to help my mother [snorts] and uh we've been here ever since. That was in 2000 he died. So we've been back ever since to help her. But uh let me think about it after this. >> Well, I was just curious. >> What would you do? >> I I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Don't know. I don't know. I If this is home, I don't know. >> It doesn't really feel like it right now. >> Your mom still lives in the area? >> My mom died. >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She died. I'm sorry. >> Oh, well, it gets better. She died in uh two years ago, the two years in October. And Chris Hayes posted stuff that I killed her cuz she fell. She was one fell off the balcony of Fenton. They thing broke down the spindles and she fell. He tripped over through it. He post >> It would be extremely difficult if she were to back into this and the railing gave way and she just went over. that would explain why she's laying on the ground in the manner that she is. Now, if she went through face first, you could see where a pulse could have inflicted this damage to her subdural tissue. But then again, if she went through face first, how did she wind up on her back with her head facing out? I mean, this was not a an Olympic dive that she was performing here. We're talking about a 77 year old woman who weighs 218 pounds. She's got a bad back then and uses a mechanical assistance to walk any distance. It's highly unlikely that she pulled off a Jesse Owens style sprint here. The social cognitive perspective of the dark triad personality focuses on how individuals with dark triad traits perceive and interact with the social world. It suggests that people exhibiting those traits may have learned manipulative or exploitative behaviors through social interactions or lack of emotional bonding with caregivers. Although Pamela did not have a tough childhood, she did not seem to have a good bond with her parents. >> Two months ago, my mom got in an accident and we had to put her in a home. I really hate to say it, wanted money. My mom's worth a half a million that I get when she dies. My mom is dementia and doesn't half the time know who we are, >> right? >> Has been living alone in a condo. And I know that sounds really morbid and stuff like that, but I am a life insurance person. But if I really wanted money, there was an easier way than trying to combat somebody that's physically stronger than me. I'm just saying. People suffering from psychopathy consider themselves superior, which can explain why Pamela could target people who were sick and unwell. Betsy, who had cancer, her own mother, Shirley May Newman, who had Alzheimer's, and Louisis Gumpenberger, who had limited mental capacity because of a car accident. She disguised herself as a caregiver for the sick and vulnerable, only to harm them later. Her initial act of care made her actions hard to suspect or question. Some people alone. I just don't get it, you know? I just don't get why these people keep coming at me. That's why when I got that money, I never did anything with it. It was like cursed. So, I don't have anything to do with it. Everybody wants that. likes money. >> Ain't that much really crazy? >> 150,000? >> Not really. >> It's not not in this day and age. >> No, >> I just had to buy a new car and it was uh $30,000 like that. >> I know. >> 150 squat. >> No, I mean obviously it's a good chunk of chain. It is a good chunk of money, but >> if someone gave you to it, it's great. It's nice. But like I said, >> mine's still sitting in the bank. I'm not retiring and stop work because I got 150,000. That's what my point is. It's not >> how do you pay off my house? >> It's not lifech changing money, >> right? >> Can't pay off my house. So, but I guess to some people they want it. And I guess I was stupid at the beginning because at the beginning it was like um no, it's not what she wanted to do or she would have done something different. You're not getting it. And I dug my heels. I was probably stupid. I should just get away and put the problem on someone else. I don't know. I don't know enough about it, but >> I just know people's greed. >> A lot of people are greedy people. That's for sure. >> I don't even know if it's greed. It's like they're they deserve it. Like it's entitlement. That entitlement like like her daughters wanted it. And I get that. I get it. But you know, she had that policy for 15 years. They were never once on it. She's changed a couple times, but never to them and would never. And Russ was the last one on. But she's changing that cuz she was leaving them. [snorts] >> She, like I said, I haven't followed that case too much, but she not have a good relationship with her daughters or something. >> No. She loved her daughters, but they were um one was in and out of youth in need and that kind of stuff. >> Wouldn't be good with the money. >> No, the one was in youth in need. She got to get a settlement. $36,000 >> gone. You ask them what you think you buy a car as a young girl. Nothing. >> Partying, drugs, booze, that kind of stuff. They're the kind of girls that when my friend was dying of cancer that if she didn't give them what they wanted it would be nothing to say you're such a [ __ ] You know those kind of kids [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> No. >> First you would have killed me. Second you just didn't. >> Right. Yeah. >> But that was common. >> Did you Did you talk to anybody? Maybe you didn't like stop and get out of your car necessarily, but did you make any contact with anybody? Um, did you get gas at a gas station? >> Just that morning at Kico. >> Okay. So, you got gas. I got Kico. >> Yeah. And then I got my soda. >> Okay. >> So, I talked to the girl at the counter because I see her every day. >> Okay. Didn't stop and talk to anybody else. Okay. >> Okay. I think that's it. I was just trying to make sure we knew kind of if we could narrow it down just so we can show that, you know, you're kind of code 915. You're >> Yeah. What's that? [snorts] So, >> okay. >> You need water or anything? >> Oh, that's yours. >> Okay. >> We're working on getting those clothes. >> Oh, okay. >> As soon as we can get Oh, we got clothes. How about that? I didn't see your point. >> So, Miss H. >> Yeah. >> What we're going to do is I'm going to go get uh Officer Club again and then we're probably going to have you go in that other room and change out of your clothes. She's going to seize those clothes. Okay. And we we have your jeans. We got jeans and a shirt for you. So, we got we got clothes for you. So, just hang tight. Okay. I'll go get off the club. >> Find out. Have you ever You ever been arrested before? >> Traffic offense, traffic warrant, DWI or anything? >> Nope. >> Okay. >> Not that I know of. >> Okay. >> Never been arrested. >> Okay. Reason I ask we might get your fingerprints just as we're doing our investigation and if he's somebody's in the house, elimination prints to kind of separate who's who. Cool. That's fine. >> All right. Yeah. All right. The detectives discovered a note and $900 in Louiswis's pocket. The note was about kidnapping Pamela and taking Russ's money. The detectives were able to find out that she had lured Lewis to her house, shot him, and left fake evidence. She also tried to kidnap Carol McAfee a mere 6 days before she shot Lewis dead. So, I put a folding pocket knife up this sleeve and a kitchen knife in the front because I'm getting ready to get into a stranger's car that I'm pretty sure like 99% sure is up to something illegal. I sat there and I listened to Tim Lar tell me his version of how he thinks I was supposed to die that day. Talk about leaving you numb from the neck down. It It's hard. You know, you you make jokes about it, whatnot, and but you sit and you think about she was really going to kill me. On August 23rd, 2016, Pamela was charged with Lewis Gumpenberger's murder. Now, the question is, what should one do after getting caught? This is Pamela's answer. Do >> you have the right to remain silent? >> And they ask her to initial she understands. Officers leave again to try her attorney. >> We'll see if we can get a hold of them. >> Huff touches her neck slowly, feeling both sides. You can see how she's thinking about what's next. She knows she's on camera, so she's subtle. Watch this. There's an over here that's going to reach in the back. Okay. About 5 minutes pass when you can hear officers yelling. >> These evidence photos show how she stabbed herself, her neck, both sides, and strikes to both wrists. Too many to count. >> Pamela Hup entered an Alford plea in which she admitted the prosecutors had enough evidence to convict her while still maintaining her innocence. On August 12th, 2019, she was given a life sentence in prison without the possibility of parole. Finally, on July 12th, 2021, she was charged with the murder of Betsy Faria as well. Any further updates on this case are pending. >> She's been uh manipulative the whole way. She wants everybody to believe that she's still in control. She lost control and she's never going to have control again. Uh so, I think this was just one more way for her to try to hold on to every last little bit she can. Russ Faria ended up finding a partner in Carol McAfee who's going to be another victim of Pamela's. Out of all this bad and this bad, bad bad evil person. I mean, she's evil incarnate. Um, if it weren't for her, I wouldn't have met this lovely lady here. I think we both make each other pretty happy. >> And what was the first thing you said to her? >> I'm sorry about your wife, and I hope you find happiness. Money can sometimes have a profound influence on individuals, pushing them to engage in morally reprehensible actions. Psychopaths, known for their limited capacity to empathize with others, may only truly comprehend the consequences of their actions when they themselves experience suffering. This phenomenon sheds light on why, when apprehended, many murderers opt for death rather than enduring the legal consequences of their deeds. Whether this applies to Pamela or if her attempt to stab herself was merely an attention-seeking ploy is up for debate. Given this context, we invite you to share your thoughts and insights on Pamela's behavior. Let us know your thoughts in the comment section below. If you'd like us to cover any case, please drop your suggestions. Also, remember to like, comment, and subscribe so that we can keep covering such cases. Until next time, stay safe.