There's so it's it's like my older brother leaves for the service in two months. I was going to affect him. It's just going to ruin that for him. [laughter] >> Unfortunately, this is going to affect everybody. >> Yeah, I know it will. It's going to ruin our family name. >> [snorts] >> That night, a 17-year-old boy told a man on Grinda, "Coming, only 17." The man replied, "I don't care." The boy took his car. And when he later explained it to police, he didn't describe himself as a criminal. He described himself as someone delivering justice. He said he wasn't gay. He said he had gone on the app for one reason. People who go after kids deserve karma. In his mind, he was the hero, the punisher. But there was a problem. The gloves he had used that night were still in his bag. And those same gloves would become part of a much darker story. One involving a 98-year-old woman and a house he had no innocent reason to enter. Because when detectives finally ask him what happened inside that house, the story he tells them begins to change. >> That you talk to. self. >> I don't mean to make you upset, but I I just don't understand what you're saying. What about five or six people? >> Never mind. It's It's not It's not a label. So [sighs] Is there something else you need to tell us? [snorts] >> What's upsetting [clears throat] you so much? No, [clears throat] >> I've been doing this for a little while and I have a whole gaggle of children of my own ranging from the age of 26 all the way down to 10. So, I'm pretty good with this stuff. I ask, did you get put in a bad situation? Somebody put you in a bad situation? >> No. >> No. >> Yeah. Let's put it this [snorts] way. Honesty is always what's best. >> I'm not always anything bad. Like, >> you've already gotten yourself in trouble. So, >> I know. And I don't even I don't know what to say. [snorts] >> Is there more? Because you know it all. >> It's not that there's anything more. It's What the [ __ ] dude? What if I always told you kids? What happens in the dark comes out in the light. That's the way it works. You mess up, you get caught. you make bad choices, you're going to pay for it. So, if there's something else, let's get it all out on the table so that we know what we're dealing with. There's not anything else. It's I don't know. I'm I'm mad at myself. [snorts] I'm so mad at myself. [snorts] >> What are you so mad at yourself for? I'm I was 16 and I already had a [ __ ] belly in like five million years. And now I'm going to be in more trouble. I have to go back to court and I'm I'm done with it. I'm so done with it. >> Like honestly, I don't even want to live at home anymore. I I don't know. I just I'm not [ __ ] normal. I just I need to live somewhere else. Like I don't know. some halfway house or something. I honestly would not care. >> Why would you want to live in a halfway house? What What is so wrong about living at home? >> No, there's nothing that they do. It's me. Like everything I'm putting them through, I'm causing them thousands of dollars, constant heartbreak. I've honestly probably never made either of them proud. I don't I don't do anything [ __ ] good. >> Stop coughing. >> It's a [laughter] word. I Well, it's disrespectful. [sighs] So, you're upset with yourself. >> Yeah. I hate you by 12. That's really it. [snorts] >> That's That's not why we brought you in here. >> Yeah, I know. >> Everybody. >> At first, this looks like a routine interview about a teenager getting into trouble with a friend, but the detectives aren't really interested in the church or the cars anymore. They're watching how Gavin reacts when the conversation moves towards something much more serious. And when the elderly woman's death comes up, his response becomes emotional almost immediately. He insists he knows nothing about it. But then the detective notices something in the way he's talking. That's when the questioning changes. Instead of accusing him, the detective gives him room to explain himself. And sometimes that's when people reveal more than they realize. Because what happens next isn't a confession. It's something more subtle. And it starts with one simple question. Is there something else you need to tell us? >> It sound like it's no big deal right now. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you or you or my mom. I'm just saying like right now you're making it seem like, oh, you just went, you know, >> to to us there's more serious things out there. >> Yeah, I know. But then I go to court and it's completely different. Like last time the cops told me, "Oh, like whenever I got the felony, like, yeah, it'll be, you know, blah blah blah." He wasn't even making it stop and then next thing you know, I'm on probation for 6 months with a felony and two misdemeanor. [snorts] >> That was central immediate. That was felony breaking. >> Told you when we started this stuff when you turn 18. to the point. I don't care about what's on my record. Okay? Like I do, but right now, like I know I'm going to have to deal with it more for the next 9 months. I That is what makes me mad. >> You're the only person that can change those >> decisions. Okay. And I just had I had the same conversation with I forget his name. Brayden. >> Brayden. I can't remember if Brandon or >> I had the same conversation with him. The only thing the only person that can change this is you. Your mom could tie you up in the basement and it wouldn't remedy the situation. You've got to make the right choices. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and you definitely know what's right and what's wrong. I'm guessing that you're employed somewhere by the look of your boots. >> Not just a carpet at school. >> Okay. So, you're learning a trade, I'm assuming. >> Yeah. >> You have aspirations of not working at Maurice all your life? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Maurice is probably not the best choice of places. >> He says it's terrible. The things that go on are terrible. He says that. >> Yes, >> I know. >> We're constantly dealing. So, >> yeah. I've forgotten several others. >> Try Panera. Those girls are nice. >> What a rather work they want. That was his first job. >> Again, this is all there is. There's nothing else. I I'm asking. I'm not. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's That's it. >> Okay. You had nothing to do with with the carjacking. >> Okay. We're not going to see you on the video when we get it back from enhancement. >> That was, you know, by the overlook administration building. You were not in that parking lot at all in the middle of the night. I have a friend that I works for NASA, so sometimes they'll do favors for me, >> right? >> Yeah. So, we sent send the video up there to get it cleaned up and when we get it back and that's and I'm being straightforward, okay, I don't >> right. >> That's the way I am. And I told Braden that, you know, I would prefer he just tell me if he was involved >> and that'll make a lot better for him, >> right? >> You know, and you know, the fact that there is video and it's a good thing. Mhm. >> That's a good thing. Yeah. >> So, there's cars on port. >> There's cars. >> Well, no. I said we want to do >> something. the car driving it. Okay, it was me. I'm going to be honest about it. But the way that he explained it, that guy, that's not right. That grander thing. >> Something changes here. And it's easy to miss if you're only listening to the words. Gavin isn't confessing to the murder. In fact, he's still talking about the smaller crimes, but emotionally, he's reacting as if the consequences are much bigger than what the detectives have actually confronted him with. The detective doesn't rush to fill that silence. Instead, she lets him talk about himself, his family, his mistakes, his fear of going back to court, and Gavin starts moving deeper into that emotional space on his own. That's important because the detective doesn't have to force the next disclosure. She only has to keep the conversation open. kind of and that's where I threw up. When I looked in the mirror, it's like I was looking for him cuz I didn't know where he went. And I was sitting there like turned around cuz I felt like he was going to come up behind me or something and try and get in again. And I [snorts] was looking I didn't see him. I threw his phone and then I drove up a little bit more past the dumpster and left. >> Why were you on that app? >> Really? just for that reason to find guys that are that low of people I guess >> that want to get with kids. >> Mhm. [clears throat] Like it's karma really. >> Like if you're going to do that then I'm going to rob you >> and you told him how >> you told him you were 17. >> What was his response to that? >> He was like okay. He [clears throat] was down to me. So that's when I decided I was just gonna take his money and leave. >> Did he touch you at all? >> Did you touch him at all? >> No. >> Now, how where were you at in the car? >> I kind of into the front seat like the front passenger. >> And then like [clears throat] whenever I didn't even have the door really closed yet, like my foot was still out just precautions I guess if I needed to run. And [clears throat] >> he's like, "Should you go in the back seat to do this?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And then he got out and I pulled my door closed after he shut his and I locked it. And then he was locked out of the car. And then I jumped over the driver's seat and [clears throat] like cracked the window a little bit and waited to see like his reaction. And then I just like gasing a little bit and going, you know, 2 feet forward. >> I don't know. >> What was he thinking was going to happen? I mean, >> was there an act that you guys agreed upon? >> Not really. No, just like NFA. I didn't even know what that meant, but it means no strings attached. >> Okay. >> And that's what >> you guys didn't talk about what kind of sex you were going to have or >> No, I didn't. I don't know. It's not something I'm interested in. just the act of him getting [clears throat] the payback. I guess I don't know that's what like maybe even get the app and do all that. Not because of the emotions or like feelings towards other men. >> Okay. >> I don't care who you prefer to draw. It doesn't bother me. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Hey, you want chocolate chip cookie? Okay, thank you. >> Okay. You want me to talk to her? Are you going to talk to her? >> Um, [clears throat] well, we talked a little bit about the carjacking situation. Um, >> it's not >> it's not what you think. >> It's not a gun in the face and I'm going to steal your car. Um, there's an app called Grinder that people [clears throat] use for hookups. And >> I wasn't hooking up with the guy. I was I planned on robbing him because he was trying to meet up with a 17-year-old. [snorts] Like I didn't go on the site looking for like sex or anything like I'm not gay. I went on there honestly like a catfish kind of thing. >> I don't even know what that means. That means he made a profile that said he's 18 or 19 and they start chatting off the app and he says, "I'm underage. I'm only 17." And the guy says, "I don't care. Let's meet up anyway." And hook up. >> I don't know. I >> So yeah. >> And he said, "Let's [snorts] do this." and they decided they go in the back seat. And it's my understanding you're small enough that you jump through the seats. Is that right? >> Well, no. I like was in the front seat like, "All right, well, like, do you want to go to the back seat or whatever?" Well, he said that. And then when he got out of the car, I closed the front passenger door and he closed his. And then I locked the doors and he was locked out. And I got in his car or I got in the driver's seat and I cracked the window and he was, you know, like kind of blah blah blah my car. I'm like, "No, you just tried to hook up with a child." Like I'm still a minor. And then like I never even left overlook parking lot with his car. I literally went up, turned around, and then like messed with him a little bit. Like I would go up to him and I gas it a little bit and then I turned around and he came up to the door and I'm like, "Where's your wallet?" Where he's like, "Can I have my phone?" I'm like, "No, but where's your wallet?" I was like, "I'll give you your phone if you give me your wallet." Cuz I was going to take his money. He said he didn't have it. And then um like I looked away for a second. He like grabbed the window and tried to like break it and then I took off and like parked up by the dumpsters and he was gone when I looked back. So then I got out and I left. >> Who else was with them? >> It was >> up to this point. Gavin has been given plenty of opportunities to correct his story, but the detectives are quietly doing something else. They're building a timeline. Every time he says last night, they test it. Every time he says he wasn't involved in something, they introduce another piece of information that could potentially contradict him later. There's no dramaticization, no shouting, no sudden threat, just a steady accumulation of details. And eventually, the detective reframes the carjacking in a way that strips away the excuse of a typical robbery. She isn't asking whether he held someone at gunpoint. She's asking whether he was involved at all. Gavin pauses, then he asks to speak. And this is the moment the first interview finally breaks open. >> Yeah, that's a I we didn't really want him to get a job there, but he got hired and he needed a job to pay for car insurance. So, and his fines from getting out all that court stuff. I'm like, you will pay that yourself. Start looking elsewhere, buddy. >> Well, I have a job lined up for the funeral home. >> Like, I'm already hired and everything, but >> what funeral home? the Hillary Rosford >> when my father-in-law passed away almost a month and they um Ross had been family friends with my husband's family for many years and he and Dan were talking and Dan's like I'll give you a job. He's like you can wash cars, you can help with funerals, you can be with me to pick up bodies, blah blah blah. >> You ready for that kind of stuff? >> He's morbid like me. That's Yeah, I'm I'm a morbid person into that. He can never find anybody. >> My husband does what he said and he got all he's like I'll hire you. So they did and they paid well. >> We'd rather see him do that. >> 15 an hour. >> Wow. >> For I know. >> I'm like for 250 for now your age. >> That is that was like 100 years ago. >> Really? >> Really? Oh god. That's good. But it's good. I know. But the only reason I haven't quit Maurice is is because Dan said it's not really up to him when that can work because he doesn't control people >> when people die. Yeah, >> that makes sense. >> Man does. >> So, >> find someone else besides me. >> I have someone to go talk to closer. >> But yeah, >> I don't get involved with anything that I work on. So, I stay in the pit and I do my job now because I get good hours. This that's like best paying job I can find at the moment besides funeral home. And >> they pay you what, 10 bucks an hour? >> No, 850. >> How late? >> I mean, I don't like 8:30, but still. >> I know you got some bad things going on. You can get this taken care of. You're 17. You can ask to get things fine when you turn 18. And it depends what you're doing with your life. The judge can do that. And you have a clean state when you turn 18 or you know a little after you turn 18. And there's good things out there. There's good things in town. There's like ETSS tuning always hiring. Company. >> My buddy just got hired. >> All kinds of cool car. The owners have Lamborghinis and everything else. And they have car shows. And place looks like James Bond would be inside when you go in there. Like that. They have glass windows with carpenter. >> Yeah. >> I'm not really sure yet. >> But isn't you going to have that um job lined up for the summer with that guy? >> Yeah, but I haven't talked to him at all. >> Well, it's been crap weather. So, >> you've lost opportunity. You seem like a nice kid. >> We dealt with plenty of kids that you go, "All right, well, I'll talk to you later." You're not that kid. >> Okay, turn it around. Make good choices. Hear my irritating voice when you go. This is really stupid. [laughter] >> Like, I know it's stupid. >> I know. >> Like, I know. Why would I go do that again? Like, I literally just got in trouble with her. >> Mhm. >> Well, you got to hang hang out. Don't hang out with certain people. >> Yeah, I know. Totally cut them off. >> I think you could find another friend. He's pretty adorable. >> He is, you know, we've talked about this before. Dr. Wure from Cornerstone. Okay. He's seen her on and off for years. He's been seeing her for several months. >> Gavin was diagnosed ADHD years ago. We tried him on, you know, different medications that are all all those. He was one of that like tiny percentage of kids that had failure to thrive. Like he just didn't grow and they say it does happen. So, we took him off and it's been a crapshoot. The impulsivity is horrible. And I I mean I realize that's not the same as making poor choices, but he is impulsive. But what was the trade-off? Keep him on medicate. You know what I mean? >> Right. >> So, >> well, you need to recognize that that is you. >> I know. Whenever like it's in the moment, I >> don't think about it whatsoever. That's what it is. >> Every time I say that, my dad gets more mad. But that's I'm being honest. I don't think about it. I just do it. >> Well, there's this part of your brain that's not going to develop till you're about 23. I can say this cuz I have three boys. >> Two of which are above that age. >> Like this little scale. If I do this stupid thing, this bad thing can happen. Your scale doesn't work yet. >> Right. Right. I agree. >> That's why we see boys getting in traffic crashes from speeding and showing off. That's why we see boys doing stupid, reckless things like jumping off of a roof into a pool and fracturing both their legs all the way up. >> That's why we see boys doing stupid things. >> Yep. >> And there are just a handful of them that just can't grasp that. And >> I know >> you're that kid. >> Tell you one more thing. Don't drink. Don't start drinking. Exact. You >> probably get addicted just like that. Same same trucks. >> Certain personalities and certain >> Yeah, it's true. True. >> Some people have a >> Now you got three of us preaching to it. >> Some people have um ADHD medicator self-medicator and self uh you can just get take the quicker than >> I know >> a normal person. >> I know. Yep. My middle boy is bad all day long. Frustrate. But now as an adult, you know, he's he's good. He's like, "You're right, mom." >> Yeah. I like it. Thank you. >> Exactly. And I think the candy for that you'd have fun around it. >> I'm starting to like feel >> And there it is. After more than half an hour of circling the subject, Gavin finally gives them something concrete. It was me. But notice what happens immediately after the admission. He doesn't simply tell one clean story. He starts explaining, qualifying, and separating himself from parts of what happened. He describes why he targeted the man. He explains the car. He explains the phone. And then the detectives introduce another problem, the possibility that someone else appears in the surveillance footage. Now, the interrogation has changed completely. They're no longer trying to find out whether Gavin knows something. They're trying to determine exactly how much of the story he's willing to tell. You sure I can't get you a drink? >> [gasps] >> I know telling me about it doesn't give you much relief. Just seems to ruin my life and It's not going to change it. We can't We can't go back and change it. At this point, we just have to figure out what's going on with you. Okay. Did you go to school the next morning after this? I don't think we we were even back in school. >> Oh, during spring break, right? >> I think so. >> And you didn't take anything from the house? Like I said before, it doesn't make a difference either way. one other crime that I commit that would really matter at this point. >> Now I this family just specifically asked me about the wallet. So that's the only reason I'm asking about that. Okay. Doesn't have anything to do with >> the case really. It just a little something for them. Okay. Grandpa [cough] [clears throat] more comfortable. >> You want to take off? >> I'm not worried about you. >> You know what I'm saying? [snorts] popular. >> Okay. >> [laughter and gasps] >> I'll cook you something. What happened to Margaret's underwear? >> Right. it. I mean, there was a bit of an altercation like she wasn't whatever she was going to. So, did you kind of wrestle with her then? >> A little bit, but off the couch >> on the floor >> and her underwear got torn then. >> Yeah. >> So, when she died, was she on the couch or on the floor? floor. >> Were you on top of something? [snorts] >> Like straddling her? [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> And did you use one hand or both? >> Both. Did you squeeze it or push her against the floor or both? >> You said you don't remember if she was bleeding at that point. >> Well, [clears throat] the only reason I can think of bleeding is when I put my hand over. that you were hold when you were holding her hand over it. You might have pushed too hard and maybe made her nose. >> Yeah. >> So, were you in her house for a little while before you woke her up? I mean, [clears throat] I like I came home one of the porch and I didn't even know what I was going to do. >> [snorts] >> And I looked in the window and everything. [clears throat] I don't know. I felt like going into a house like the biggest rush I could get, I guess. >> So, and I tried the door, not that just happened to be unlocked. >> Was it the front door or back door? >> Back door. >> So, you went into the kitchen. like the TV on or something like ended up getting or something. [clears throat] Well, she was already asleep whenever I went in because when I came around the corner, that's when I saw her and it scared me cuz I didn't expect to see someone right there. I didn't hear anything. So, I came in like I opened the door. I didn't listen. I didn't hear anything. So, maybe nobody's home. And then I go to walk around that corner. Things are still going slow, but I see her and she's I don't know, like sleeping or something. And then I [clears throat] go to turn around and make the chair. It made a noise and she woke up. >> Did she start to scream at that point, you said? Yeah, because like when I hit the chair, I like turned back around and I looked cuz she was there staring at me to yell for the phone. looked like she went to the phone call or something like a little bit. I think I think I the couch. I'm not really sure. >> You guys ended up on the floor at that point? >> Yeah, it I don't even know where the phone went. taking us on the floor like her gap for her. >> Yeah, cuz she was still wearing her underwear. I guess I didn't even know she was wearing underwear. Okay, >> because when she was on the couch, like she grabbed the [ __ ] everything. It was still like yelling. I don't know what she does anything or not, but I just didn't know what to do. And that happened by the time I even realized what I was doing. It's too late to stop and you realize fall on top of her when your hands aren't and stuff. That's when [clears throat] >> you know there's a couple of videos of you kind of peeking over the edge of the couch and videotaping her. >> When was that all done? This is where the interrogation becomes much more interesting. Gavin has just admitted to a serious crime. And instead of immediately pushing harder, the detective asks him about the elderly woman. His answer is immediate. No. But the detectives don't need him to change that answer yet. They start talking about DNA. They tell him that evidence was collected from the house and they offer him something that sounds almost comforting, the possibility that a DNA profile could actually clear him. It's a clever shift in pressure. The question isn't did you do it? Oh, it's almost anymore. Would you like us to prove you didn't? And now Gavin has a reason to keep talking. >> Yeah. Lately, I don't know. Nothing feels like all right. >> You feel alive. [clears throat] Like there's meaning to you, right? I don't know about me, but you understand like you feel like >> it feels different like I don't know how to explain any bad stuff I guess you live with hurt you with hurt you pain confusion. I used to be, you know, with her and everything, but I don't know what it's from. >> Like when you met up with the guy with the car, was that turn on [clears throat] a little bit? >> Yeah. So your whole intention of going in the house was just the adrenal being in the house. >> Yeah. And then rob was just the the sneaky gorilla. Can I get into someone's house and get out and get away with it? >> Yeah. But if the door was locked, I would have just walked away. One thing I'm not going to try and go open a window or climb on the roof and go in. I would just left just like a car. The car is locked on. >> You try the doors. >> You just were familiar with that house when you ended up there. Well, whenever I was walking around because I was out, you know, trying to get in the cars and everything and I [clears throat] came out from like the backyard and I've never even been in the backyard and there was no cars in the driveway and the garage looked like it hadn't been open in a while because there was stuff out in front of it. So then I just bring that out and see cuz maybe didn't even know if somebody's home. >> Yeah, I didn't think anybody was home. Was a dark room at the house. No lights on it. >> None at all. >> Well, no. It was on >> in the living room over in the corner by the [clears throat] way. No, but if you walk in from the kitchen, you'll be looking at the couch on the right. >> Okay. By the time C probably where the where she was for [clears throat] the phone at >> Did she say anything to you when this was happening? >> Did you say anything to her? No, dude. It happened. >> Happened quick. >> And you didn't take her wallet. >> Nobody cares about the 60 or 80. >> Nobody cares about it. [clears throat] >> I did. That's gone. >> Trash also. >> Which trash? At my house. >> Trash taken out. What day is your trash? Tuesday, Thursday. So that's >> So the card really worry about how I'm going to use that card. >> Yeah, that's cool. >> And the cash you just use whatever smoke and [ __ ] >> Yeah, >> that's cool. I appreciate that. Just worried about disco. >> So when you left her house, you were home. Yeah, I walked to my house and I smoked a couple cigarettes in that twominute walk. >> I don't know. I was on a tragic process. What happened? >> What were you doing before you made it to Mars? [laughter] [clears throat and cough] >> Do you remember where I at? >> It was down towards I think the road like Sarah and then I crossed over Broad and I went down towards like past the little car dealership. >> Mhm. But I didn't even get into any cars when I was over there and I was walking by and I was thinking like what if I went into a house and then I came up on the street and I just went to a yard and then I saw there was nobody there. Well, no car. The garage looks like it was open. >> Did you look inside the garage? >> I mean before I went up on the porch. Yeah. I open the garage door and it was just piled up with a bunch of stuff. So, I'm like, "Well, nobody's here." >> I didn't know [clears throat] whose house it was at first until we saw her. I knew she knew you. >> Had you talked to her before? I know we discussed it a couple times, but >> going to like when I was 13 or 14 going to shovel airplanes and stuff, you know, when I was actually doing something good and nobody was with you that night and you've not told anybody about this? >> No, nobody about this. I was never going to tell anybody. >> What were you wearing that night? car, right? Right. [clears throat] So, you find the boot and car keep your boots rolling cuz you're comfortable. >> I don't even think I was wearing boots. I think I was wearing shoes because I know how you know you got on shoes. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Like Nike ID running shoes. They were just my gym shoes. >> You don't remember what else you're wearing? >> No, I think I flex probably. I just start. Makes sense. It's part. Is there anything at your house that you've taken from any of these cars or anything that we can recover? You have like a GPS unit or sunglasses or have passed and this time Gavin isn't walking into the same interview room with the same information or the same position. The detectives now have something they didn't have before. Information recovered from his phone. That's why the atmosphere changes. They don't need to spend 30 minutes slowly approaching the subject anymore. They can start asking about what happened inside Margaret's home. And Gavin begins answering. At first, the details come out in fragments. But then the questions become more specific. Where she was, where he was, what happened physically. And once the detective starts asking those questions, there's no easy way back to the story Gavin gave them 3 days earlier. Is that part of the confusion? Confusion. >> Yeah. People Kevin, is there anything else that we need to know about? >> We just want to put it all and we'll deal with it all now and get you the help you need. Okay. I know I was driving pay attention to a whole lot that she may have asked, but did you lean to to her partner like that? >> No. No. Or was it just push push shot? >> You said you started doing it and by the time you realized that she had died that frustration out of your handy I didn't even care. I was just mad because I finished my test and math and then I saw a text from Brad that said the cops have my phone. I'm like great. And then Miss Far I'm like that's for me. I guarantee it. I'm looking at her and she looks at me and she like go to the office. >> Yeah. Yeah. church. Sorry. >> Did you guys Did you guys go in the church? >> No. >> You didn't set off the alarm with the window? >> Yeah. Like, >> were you going to go into the church before the alarm went off? >> I don't really know what we were going to do at the church. I I didn't even hear the alarms go off. Bring it in. He's like, "Dude, the alarms are going off." Like, what are you talking about? And this and like we should probably go. [clears throat] [snorts] We did. Did you feel weird going out given some cars or trying to break that place knowing what you've already been through in Barbara's house? That seems strange or just kind of like pass the door Was it left? >> Yeah. [sighs] Or is there that same on top the same? >> Well, like that, you know, the cars. [clears throat] >> Yeah. I mean cars is like quite quick. It's just that you know what when you go to open the door handle it's like is the alarm going to go off? Is someone going to go outside? So it's like there's that risk and then I don't the whole breaking into the house that was the part >> I think. I don't know. I just I didn't >> I didn't even put a grip on reality when I did that. >> This is the point where the interrogation stops being about suspicion and becomes a reconstruction. The detective isn't asking Gavin to give a dramatic confession. She's asking him to walk through the sequence where he entered, what he saw, what Margaret did, and what happened next. And that's what makes the answers so revealing. The story is coming physical and chronological. Gavin describes the struggle. He describes his position over her. He describes his hands. And then comes one of the most unsettling parts of his account. He says he didn't fully process what was happening until it was already too late. But the detective doesn't stop there. She keeps moving forward. What happened after, how long he stayed, and what he did with the body. The next questions aren't about what happened to Margaret. They're about what Gavin did after it was over. >> I don't know. Like some stuff you think about yourself in that situation like, "Yeah, I can see that." And then like I think if I had a car crash or something, me dying in a car crash, you're like, "Yeah, yeah, I see that." Something else that doesn't necessarily involve me dying or even like me being injured. Like, yeah. When I think about me killing someone, I'm like, I can't I can't see that. I can't never what it feel like. Like that would feel that way. Adrenaline crack. >> I mean, I've wondered what killing somebody would feel like, but I've also wondered what jumping off the building would feel like. like driving my car 10 miles on the speed it would feel like. Yeah. So it's not like like anything about this is premeditated extraordinary have to [snorts] wrap things up with you and get some paperwork done to get you ready to go for the night. Wait, is my mom come here? >> You know what? I don't know that. Your mom thought she was she was coming here. Yeah. She was finishing up with that lady at the place we were and then she said she'd be coming here. Okay. Is there anything that you're leaving at or just right? I don't think you're >> that way. I mean, if you're taking like she said, is there anything at your house or anywhere that you're taking from anywhere that we feel get back to whoever it belongs to or nothing taken from a car? Nothing taken from the guy in his car to nothing from Bar's house. Nothing. >> No, I'm trying to like visualize everything in my room, but I can't. I don't think I have anything. the walts hunting took from murder. >> Yeah. Where was that at? And we grabbed that to >> I think that was on the little thing by the china stuff too. >> Okay. And then the other thing you really the guy's car was a little bit he had left. >> Yeah. >> Nothing else. No walnut was in there. >> And the cars are just what did you get like change or >> change? No. No electronics. No, I'm good. GPS and that's gone. Where you at? On the road. >> Yeah. All right. Are you tired? I'm getting tired. I just I don't know how I feel right now. Are you sorry this happened? >> Yeah, I'm really sorry that I did all of this. >> Were you sorry about all of this before you got caught? Yeah, like I I I constantly like I think about it a lot and I I feel like bad about what I did. Like I don't know like I feel bad. I know it's wrong but I can't express the emotions. So it seems like like what I'm saying is a lot. Like if I say like something about my mom, you know, I cry or whatever. It's like okay being honest, but if I say like I'm sorry for what I did like with Margaret and I don't have any emotion to it, it sounds like lying and I don't really care. But that's not [clears throat] the If she was here, what would you say to her? >> Wait, what would you mean? >> If she was here alive in front of you, what would you say to her? >> I'm sorry. Never that was never meant to happen. If I could take it back, I would [clears throat] Make sure you take advantage of whatever counseling they have for you. You need to go into it with an open mind and cooperate and do everything you can to get the help you need. Okay. >> I've been trying to get help. >> No. What happens after the violence tells the detectives something they couldn't get from the initial confession alone. Gavin describes what he did with the body, how he moved her, what he covered her with, and what he did with his gloves. Then the conversation moves somewhere even more difficult to understand. The detectives aren't simply asking what happened anymore. They're trying to understand why he entered the house in the first place. Gavin eventually describes something he has mentioned before. the attraction to risk, the adrenaline, the feeling of being alive when something dangerous is happening. That doesn't explain or excuse what happened, but it does give the detectives a possible framework for understanding the behavior he's describing. And once they have that framework, they begin testing it against the rest of his nights. Do you want this? >> He said the redness there is from the handcuffs. >> Yeah, I'll do this right there. >> He punched the wall at school for that big one on his knuckle there on his right hand. >> Okay. Okay. Can you stand up for me or just sit in the chair just for a second? Okay. What I was saying is I don't think I can one second ever be together. Like maybe my mom, my dad, I don't know. I think here. What if one of your little brothers? Mine works just like yours. The only person I've met that I even think is slightly the same as me as is one guy that I work with. He works like one day a week and he's not the crazy guy you psychopath. mom. I don't know about a psychopath, but he's a different guy, but he's the guy I work with. He's like, when he thinks nobody's watching, he like he talks to himself. >> By this point, the interrogation is no longer trying to uncover what happened. That part is already clear. Now, the detectives are trying to understand the person sitting in front of them. Gavin talks about adrenaline risk, emotional detachment, and the strange feeling that dangerous situations make him feel alive. Then the conversation becomes much more personal. He admits that there were thoughts inside his head that he hadn't fully explained to the people around him. He describes feeling disconnected from his own future and even acknowledges that he had wondered what killing someone might feel like, but he still insists there was no plan. And that's what makes the ending so unsettling. The interrogation doesn't give us a simple answer like this was all planned or or this happened completely by accident. Instead, it leaves us with a much more complicated picture. One involving impulsivity, risk detachment, and thoughts that had apparently existed before the crime. The detectives eventually prepare to take him into detention. But before they finish, they ask one final question. Is there anything he's still leaving out? Well, Gavin, I'm glad it's going to stop here. I'm glad this didn't go any further because I don't know that you would have been able to change on your own. No, I wouldn't. And I >> What do you think really happened? Tell us in the comments. And don't forget to like and subscribe for more interrogation cases.