lost papa before anything ever even got to happen. [laughter] I'm so sorry. [laughter] What kind of person am I? I don't deserve to be here. No kidding. There's too much out the window. I mean, why? Why? [laughter] It was [snorts] not. >> June 7th, 2011. Tulsa, Oklahoma. 7 months pregnant. Amber Hilling is trying to explain how her husband fell 17 stories to his death. She says it was an accident. But as she talks, one word keeps coming back. Pushed. Her family warns her to be careful with what she says. Then Amber begins describing what happened near the window. Was it an accident or would her own words become a crucial part of the case against her? >> When they come in and they asked you, say, "I don't want to say nothing till my attorney gets here." Do you understand? >> The detective's at the scene still. Okay. There'll be one clear in a little bit and they'll come down here and talk to you get all that. So, just hang tight. Okay. All right. Thank you. >> But doesn't that make me guilty? >> No, that makes the lawyer do his job because baby, they will bring everything in. But regardless, I'm going to jail. >> That doesn't mean we're just doing your rights. You just don't understand how things work. You just don't say nothing till your attorney gets here. Okay. >> So, we're going to be here for like hours. >> Yeah. It probably be a long night. But you don't say nothing until your attorney gets here. when they when they come in, just say, "I don't want to say nothing until my attorney gets here." Okay? Don't don't and don't slip any other way. You just have to stick to that cuz they are listen to me. They are going to poke you. >> They just want to be with Josh. They just want to die. >> No, you don't. Yes, I do. Amber, you got that baby there. >> This is Josh's baby. >> That's right. [laughter] That's Josh's baby. That's the only thing that Josh has got is that baby. >> He's supposed to be here. I'm such a bad person. >> Amber, >> no. I don't deserve to live. >> I don't deserve to be a mom. Josh deserves to be a dad. And Josh isn't even a person anymore. You can't talk like that. I'm so sorry. And you can't talk like that in front of you got to hold it together, baby. [snorts] >> I can't stop seeing Josh Paul. This is Amber Hilling's interrogation after her husband Joshua fell 17 stories to his death. As investigators examine what happened, one question remains. Was it a tragic accident? Or is there more to the story? >> I just want to be back in bed laying with him. That's never going to happen again. No. Why do they have to die? I can't even. Like, this is supposed to hurt so much more. [snorts] I just want to see him smile again. >> [sighs] [snorts] >> This isn't fair. I just want to go back in time. I lost the person I love. The person I couldn't even imagine being separated from is dead. [sighs] [laughter] Oh, George. [laughter] George. [laughter] >> [crying] [snorts] >> I just want to see him just one more time. [snorts] [snorts] I wonder if his parents know yet. I'm sure they did. [snorts] >> They were right. They kept saying, "If we stay together, I'm going to kill him." [sighs] [snorts] >> How did this happen? How did this happen? And why did he have to fall out the window? [laughter] Fall out a window? Why did mom put us in that apartment? >> Why are we there? Why were we there? [laughter] Why didn't I just leave? He was leaving. I kept just saying. And when he leaves, I'll go to my grandma's. Why didn't I just leave? He'd still be alive. >> Were y'all both struggling? >> What do you mean? >> When you was >> I can't get the image of him out of my head, him falling out the window. [snorts] I'm just trying to tell myself this isn't real and this is all going to be over soon. [snorts] Will you call? Will you have mom bring me some different pants? >> Well, uh, right now ain't nobody going nowhere. [snorts] I can't. This isn't happening. Josh is dead. [snorts] His bones were sticking out all over his body. His whole body was broken. and I just held him and kissed his cheeks and screamed for him to wake up. >> What makes this moment so important is that Amber isn't just describing what happened. She's repeatedly using the word pushed while while trying to make sense of her husband's death. Her relative immediately recognizes how those words could be interpreted. But there's a crucial distinction here. What Amber remembers, what she believes happened, and what investigators can actually establish are not necessarily the same thing. This is going to turn into a nightmare. We just have to pray. We'll get through it. >> I don't deserve to pray. Who am I praying to? Josh. Josh hates me. [gasps] I'm not even going to be able to meet him any in heaven anymore because he just hates me. I killed him. >> Stop talking like that. [snorts] >> What kind of person am I? You're a loving person that has been abused by Josh just as well. >> No, I I'm a horrible person. Who could do that? Who could do that? Push my husband and make him fall out the window. [snorts] >> I wish I could just go back and know that if I pushed him, it was going to happen. >> Amber, quit saying you pushed him out the window. >> [snorts] >> Did you intentionally? >> No, of course not. >> Okay. That's what they're going to take it as, baby. That's why I said [snorts] everything that you say, they're going to sub in a different matter cuz they're going to say, "Okay, Amber, I just don't understand this whole legal system." >> No, not that. But I don't understand the whole pattern of events of the last year. Us getting married and going to Alaska, everything in Alaska, me being pregnant, coming back here, getting kicked out of mom's house, going to the apartment, and then all for it to just fall out of a high-rise building. [laughter] I wish y'all would have never went to the apartment. >> [snorts] >> I mean, what are the chance? How many times has that happened? All Josh's friends, his family. They're going to know he died because he fell out of a high-rise apartment. [snorts] And I just keep watching him fall over and over and over again in my head, watching him flail and think that he, you know, my last thought was, "Please catch yourself." And I would just want to know what was going through his head. If he knew he was going to die, if he said a prayer, or if he cursed my name, or if he just thought that he could catch himself, too. And then just watching him hit the ground. >> Is there no balcony there from the living room? [snorts] No. [snorts] For the rest of my life, everyone's going to think I'm a murderer. My family, my whole family. >> Amber, we don't think that, baby. [snorts] All of Tulsa is going to know. I don't I want to be the one that's dead. I want to be dead. And I want Josh to be here. What's >> What's Le going to do? they could save him. [snorts] >> So, not only does he have to lose his daddy, he's got to lose his mama, too. I just have to I just want to go back, please. I just want to go back and just not not push him. Just catch him something. This can't be real. [cough and clears throat] I mean, I still have my whole life ahead of me and I was supposed to spend it with Josh. [snorts] And now I'm going to go to prison. And Josh is dead. My baby's going to get taken away from me. [snorts] I can't believe this. I can't believe Josh fell. >> [snorts] >> I I wish I could just get it out of my head. [snorts] >> I just want to go to sleep. [snorts] What am I going to tell Levi? >> That he had a handsome dad and that he he loved him and you will show his picture to him [snorts] and you will show him and tell him the good things about his dad. >> But I know what really happened. What really happened? You don't know what really happened. Y'all remember >> there's a revealing contradiction in this conversation. Amber says she knows what really happened. Yet, when her relative reminds her that both she and Josh were struggling near the window, the explanation still isn't clear. She's trying to reconstruct a moment that keeps replaying in her mind. And as she struggles to explain it, the difference between remembering the event and understanding exactly how it unfolded becomes increasingly important. Y'all were in there. You were struggling. >> I can't believe you fell out the window. [laughter] Why did that happen? >> Cuz it's at an apartment up there with a view. And >> why didn't I just leave? Why were we there? Why did he fall? Josh is dead. I just want to know what where he's at right now. [snorts] He's probably talking to his grandpa just talking to his grandpa. [snorts] [snorts] But I wonder where he went. And what about a funeral? How is that ever going to work? Amber, [snorts] knowing how the family feels. >> [clears throat] >> that there's going to be a [snorts] >> that's what I'm saying. This is a nightmare that's just now getting started being dead. I can't even say it without believe. I can't believe it when I say it. >> [snorts] >> You have to remember what I told you. If you amber, if you don't do anything else, you got to remember what I told you. [snorts] >> [snorts] >> about the attorney. What if it doesn't work it or you let the attorney handle it and they're going to try to break you, John? I'm just waiting for Josh to walk in the room, tell me that he's sorry, that he loves me so much. >> [snorts] >> I just I keep seeing him fall. I wish I could just get it out of my head. It's never going to go away. [snorts] Every time I close my eyes, I'm going to see it for the rest of my life. [snorts] >> [sighs] >> I just want to go home to my husband. >> [snorts] >> Josh Bell. >> [snorts] >> I feel so guilty for breathing, for not crying. pain. >> You're in shock. [snorts] >> But I feel guilty for just being here. I just want him to be in the hospital. I just kept screaming his name, screaming, saying, "Wake up, please." [gasps] And I just waited for him to wake up. [sighs] >> [snorts] [snorts] >> I just held him. His body broken to nothing. >> For much of this recording, Amber has been reliving the aftermath rather than giving a clear chronological account of the confrontation itself. Then a direct question shifts the focus. Was anybody else around? That matters because her memories are only one part of the investigation. Any account of what happened inside that apartment has to be considered alongside other available evidence, including what potential witnesses may have heard or seen. >> And I just his eyes were open [laughter and gasps] and I just looked at him and I just kissed him and he said, "I'm so [ __ ] pleased. I love you. Wake up. Was [snorts] there anybody else around? [snorts] [snorts] >> [snorts] >> God, I just can't even close my eyes. >> [snorts] >> This isn't happening. Little Levi. He's going to have to grow up without all because of me. >> [snorts] >> Why did I do this? How How could I do this? [snorts] I want to die. I just I want to be with Josh. And George probably doesn't want to be with me. I just I I [snorts] just can't imagine what it would feel like to lose Adam or Ariel. candy and Josh's family lost him. [snorts] >> No, no. This is such a bad nightmare. [snorts] I just want Josh to hold me just one more time and then I'll say goodbye and I'll leave him alone. But at least he'll still be there for Levi and his family. >> He's going to be there. Please don't look overly. What did this happen? This is just [sighs] This is just only stuff that happens in movies. [snorts] I killed him. >> [clears throat] [snorts] >> I mean, I know what I have to do. >> What is that? What do you have to do? You're going to have [snorts] to quit saying that. >> Yeah, I know. You didn't say it. >> You didn't kill him, Amber. >> I know, but it was an accident that went wrong, but because of me. I mean, I [snorts] know those things. I know what I have to do to keep me and Levi safe. [snorts] No. Um, the only thing that I'm telling you is just for you to talk to your attorney. You have to be open and honest with your attorney. I'm just saying that you your emotions right now. You're in shock. [snorts] What if I'm not? What if I'm just a horrible person who can't cry or >> you're handling? >> This is one of the most significant moments in the recording. Amber moves beyond describing the image of Josh falling and begins recounting the physical sequence itself. She says he was near the television and the window, then states that she pushed him and he fell. That statement gives investigators something more specific to examine, but its full meaning still depends on the surrounding circumstances and >> you're human. You're in shock. You seen your husband that you love die. That's shock. [snorts] >> You're seven shock. >> 7 and 1/2 months pregnant. You're carrying a child. >> I don't feel like I'm in shock. I just don't feel anything. I just keep hoping it's all that Josh is just going to walk in here. But he's not. [crying] [laughter and gasps] I just God, I can't take this. [snorts] I can't take this. I can't do this. I can't. [gasps] [sighs] I can't. Josh is dead. [snorts] Not only is he dead, but the way he died, I just wish it would leave my head. Every time I close my eyes, I see it. >> [gasps] [sighs] >> It's like torture. Just my subconscious just keeps playing it over and over and over again. As if one time seeing it isn't bad enough. I have to see it over and over and over. I just want to save him. I want to save him. I just want it. At least if I can go back and take back the push, at least I can save him. >> The push. >> The push. I pushed him against the wall and he Oh my god. [gasps] [snorts and clears throat] At least I could catch him. I tried, but it was all so fast. [laughter] And I just want to know what his last thoughts were. >> [laughter] >> What could you think? What could go through your head when you're falling to your death? >> Was he fixing to [snorts] Where was the candle things? >> There's like these big There's like these stand up candle things like this high. They're just like little wire things, but he was fixing the T. He was like messing with the TV right here and the windows right here. And I pushed him and he fell into the window and fell. Oh god, [laughter and snorts] I'm never going to get over this. [snorts] I'm never going to understand it. I mean, I thought divorce was going to hurt. [snorts] He's not even here. I can't even talk to him. Every time I pick up my phone, I'm just going to want to text him. >> [snorts] [snorts] >> Why is this happening? I'm sorry. I don't know what's taking them so long. [snorts] Let me get your What? Amber, is that right? >> Yeah. >> What's your last name? >> Hillberling. >> I'm sorry. >> Hillberling. Hillling. >> How do you spell that? [laughter] >> H G R L I N. No. >> Oh. >> H I L >> P E R >> P >> B >> B E R >> L I N G. >> Okay. >> What is your maiden name? >> Heels. >> Heels. What's your birthday? Was [snorts] it 258 or 2805? Your apartment. >> 259. >> 259. Okay. >> As the conversation continues, Amber returns to the aftermath in graphic personal detail. She describes touching Josh's badly injured body, rolling him over, and holding him. These are distressing memories, but they don't independently establish exactly what happened before the fall. To understand the case, investigators have to separate what she says she witnessed afterward from what she remembers about the confrontation itself. >> Carson and Roger Social Security not detectives here. I think he's talking to one of the witnesses now and he's got to talk to another one then they'll be in here. All right. >> [snorts] [sighs] >> I can't I can't do this. Josh is gone for forever. I'm only 19. [snorts] I have the next 60 years to think about this, to let it torture me. I'm never going to find someone that I love more than Josh. I'm never going to find someone as perfect for me as he was. And I read all of it. [laughter] God, why did I do that? [laughter] [snorts] God, I just want to go back. What? The first time y'all got to fight? I can't. He's dead. [sighs] >> I touched his bones all broken and sticking out of his body. Everything was bit backwards. I rolled him over [gasps] and just held him. I didn't care. I want this to be over. I love you. I can't believe this. >> [snorts and laughter] [snorts] >> I'm going to have this baby and it's going to be just like Josh and I'm scared because it's going to remind me of him every day. look like him. And I was supposed to enjoy it with Josh. [gasps] And I stole that from Josh. I didn't. I stole his whole life away from him. He's 23. He's supposed He's never going to watch He's not going to be there when Levi's born. He's not going to watch him grow up. Watch him get married. See him out. Oh my god. [gasps and laughter] It's okay, baby. No. Josh is coming. >> [snorts] >> I mean, what if you lost Papa before anything ever even got to happen? >> By this point, Amber's attention keeps moving between the moment Josh fell, the future she imagined with him, and the family now left without him. She describes seeing the event whenever she closes her eyes and worries about the pain his relatives are experiencing. Her distress is unmistakable in the recording, but emotion alone cannot settle the central question. Investigators still need to establish how the confrontation ended with Josh falling from the window. >> What happened? >> I'm so sorry. [laughter] >> [laughter] >> What kind of person am I? [laughter] I don't deserve to be here. How could this out the window? Why? Why? [laughter] I must not. [snorts] I just want to be with him. [snorts] >> I can't accept the fact that he's not here anymore. I refuse to do that. See? >> [snorts] [snorts] >> I'm not looking forward to all the nights I'm going to spend crying and waking up screaming, dreaming about him. >> That's why we have therapist little head. >> Dreaming about what happened. Every time I I just see it. I can't get it out of my head now. >> [snorts] >> I just can't imagine how his parents feel [snorts] or how his brother's going to feel. He's all the way in Afghanistan. Him and his brother have grown up protecting each other. >> [snorts] >> I'm such a bad person. [snorts] Josh was so special. He is so special. >> [snorts] >> What am I supposed to say to them when they come in here. >> Say anything about the thing to say. >> Hi. Are you Amber? >> Yes. >> Yeah. My name is Jeff. I'm very sorry. Very [snorts] sorry. I'm sorry. You >> I'm her grandmother, Gloria. >> Okay. Very sorry. We went through this. Um Yeah. I'd like to talk to you. Get get a statement as to what happened. Can I talk to Yeah. Can I talk to her in private? I >> am. >> Thank you, ma'am. Thanks. >> How old are you? >> 13. >> How long you guys been married? >> I can't make a statement. I don't want this to turn out bad. >> Okay. Okay. Well, >> my mom, I think, is calling an attorney. >> Okay. Is that what you want to do? And I'm not supposed to say anything till he gets here. >> Okay. Who is your attorney? I >> I don't know. >> Okay. What's your mom's name? >> Rhonda Whitlock. >> Rhonda Whit Lock. Okay. And um you know her phone number. Okay. Let me just get all your information then and we won't talk about the case at all. [snorts] Okay. Amber. [laughter] And I'll let your grandma come back in here. Okay. What's What's uh >> I can't deal with this. >> Okay. Can Can you tell me your name and stuff? >> Amberling. [laughter] >> Is it H I B? >> No. H I L >> Okay. >> B E R L I N G. Would you like to Is this your water? You want another water or pop or anything? >> Okay. What's your date of [snorts] birth, Amber? Okay, I'll call your mom. Okay. >> You You want your grandma to come sit back in? >> Yes, please. >> Okay. >> [snorts] >> Josh, baby. >> Amber's words now carry the weight of what she believes her future will look like. She says she will never forgive herself and expects to spend the rest of her life paying for what happened. But there's an important distinction between expressing guilt over a devastating outcome and establishing criminal responsibility. The investigation still has to examine her account of the argument, the circumstances around the window, and any evidence that can independently support or challenge her version. >> I will never ever forgive myself. I can't even begin to accept this. I want you to be here. Just come back. Please. Please. [snorts] I love you. I love you so much. I hope I hope you are happy. I will spend the rest of my life paying for this. Oh my gosh. >> Don't push him. You'll get it. >> I just I look at this and I think of all this stuff on Josh. Everything was split open. You can see his bones and blood and guts and [snorts] >> [snorts] >> God. Come on. I just wish I had a time machine. I just watched him fall, not doing anything, standing safely in the apartment all night. The love of my life fell. And I just kept saying to myself, "Please catch yourself. Please catch yourself." wondering why the whole time that he could catch himself. [snorts] I was hoping maybe he'd just fall and break his leg or something. >> You was hoping he would fall? >> No. I mean, while he was falling, all these thoughts were running through my head like, "Please catch yourself. Just >> Okay. Why? Why did you >> Was you fixing to go out the door? >> What do you mean? Were you fixing when you fixing come over my house? >> Yeah, I was waiting for him to leave. [laughter] I didn't even yell at him or anything. I don't know what happened. He was the one walking around yelling at me, being mean, and I was just cleaning up the glass. I didn't I didn't say anything mean to him. I didn't yell at him. I just sat in the bathroom crying so hard I was throwing up and he came in there and said he said we've I've got all these options. He said what do you He said you want me he kept saying what do you want to do? And I said please make your own decisions. And he said okay I will. He said, "I want to work things out with you, but we need to be separated for a while." His he had already talked to his dad. >> He had done talked to you. >> Yeah, he had just got off the phone with him. His dad was at work, so his dad was going to pick him up after he got off of work. [snorts] That's why he was going with his friend and he was on the phone with his friend and he just hung up with his I mean I don't even know if he was on the phone. I don't know. I just >> Well, then you come out of the bathroom. Yeah, it came. I was getting He had dumped all my laundry out and I was putting it all back in there. I just don't understand why. I just wish I could go back and just have left. >> Well, you gathered your laundry up, wouldn't you? Go out the door. Yeah. And I I couldn't leave because the guy was in there measuring the window that Josh had broke. >> Was all this going on with the guy there? >> He was out on the balcony measuring the window from the outside on the balcony from the bedroom and we were in the living room. >> Oh. >> So it was somebody in the >> Yeah. So I couldn't leave cuz the guy was in there measuring the apartment. Were y'all hollering and stuff? >> No, >> we weren't yelling or anything. >> Josh was yelling, but not while the guy was in there. [snorts] >> When there was a guy, had he left? >> No, he was there when Josh >> still there. He was still there. >> Yeah, he was out on the balcony and I He heard me start screaming. I was screaming, just screaming, running around. And I ran out the door to go down the elevator to go meet to go get Josh. And he came out and he was like, "Oh my god, he fell." And I was like, "I know." I was like, "I have to go get him. [music] Hello. >> Hi. >> Nothing where I'm just still sitting in here in the room with Amber. >> Well, I told her to wait to not to say anything till the attorney got here. >> Uh, I don't know. They should be. The cops had them down at the apartment uh answering questions. And I'm sure that they'll then be down here cuz the investigator was going to call Rhonda. So, I'm just sitting and waiting till attorney shows up or Ron. >> Uh yeah, I told him uh he's called me, but I told him I couldn't really tell him anything. or talk to him right now cuz I'm kind of stuck here in this room. So, but so I'm going to sit in here with her until Rhonda gets here in the attorney. All righty. All right. Love you. Bye. That was [snorts] I just want to go to sleep color, but can't. Every time I close my eyes, I see it. >> Have you heard from your mom? Haven't heard anything. I've been trying to call and she hadn't answered. So, >> call uh Dr. Whitlock [crying] and his is uh Doc Dr. Whitlow. Is that her husband? >> Whitlock. >> Whitlock. Is that her husband or >> the last I heard they were at the apartment? Um >> they were the officers was questioning them. Oh, he brought us he brought us. >> Yeah. >> So, is this Dr. Woodlock? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. How you doing, sir? My >> Amber Hilling's case ultimately ended in a secondderee murder conviction in 2013 and 25-year prison sentence. She continued to maintain her innocence. In 2016, she was found dead in her cell, and the autopsy concluded that she had died by hanging. What remains essential when looking back at this recording is to distinguish the anguish captured in the room from the evidence and legal decisions that determine the case's outcome. >> Yeah. How you doing, sir? My name is Jeff Ellen. Please. >> Yes, sir. I'm here. I'm here with Amber and hoping to get a statement and she said her mom was contacting an attorney. Do you know who that'd be or if he's going to come down today or Okay. >> Okay. Would you uh would you call my cell phone when you get hold of one? Or in fact, you can give him my cell phone number as well to see if he's going to allow her to make a statement or if he wants to come talk to her, see what's going on. Okay. >> Okay. >> All right. Felton J E FF. No, Felton. F is in Frank. Yeah. E L T O N. Yes, sir. And 7246929. Thank you much. All right. Bye-bye. >> Would you like water, pop? Anything? >> You got You want You got a pop machine? >> Uh, yeah. Yeah, I'll get I'll get you. I think >> Mountain Death to the bathroom. >> Yeah. Here. Come on. >> Hold on. You're fine. >> Hello. >> What? Uh, >> hey, I can't hear you. >> Adam. [sighs] [music] >> Hello. >> Uh, she just went to the bathroom. Yes, >> she We're down here in the investigating room. >> She won't be able to talk to you. >> Well, Josh is dead. >> I He fell out of the window and she can't say anything down here right now. Rhonda Nim's on her way down. I'm in here with her until um somebody gets here. Okay. >> I I mean I'm sorry. When I get out and know a little more, I'll call you or one of us will. All right. All right. Love you. Bye. What do you see? What do you think really happened to Joshua? Was it an incident or do you think something does add up? Share your thoughts in the comments and subscribe to Verdict Interrogation for more real interrogation footage and true crime cases.