I didn't do anything to my daughter, like I said, >> which is absolutely ridiculous. It's not not true, right? You know that. >> On the night of Friday, July 29th, 2016, a 4-year-old girl was carried out of a house on Beach Avenue in West Price Hill, Cincinnati. Her name was Avery Lee Hobbs. Everyone called her Avery. Her mother, Britney Mays, said Avery had woken up hot, walked to the bathroom, climbed into the bathtub, and stopped breathing. Avery died 3 days later at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. The Hamilton County Corner ruled the death a homicide. The cause was blunt force trauma to the head. Detectives went back to the house. In the upstairs bathroom sink, they found Avery's pink top, her blue jeans, and a wadded ball of used duct tape. The clothing was wet. This is the interrogation of Britney Maize. She has already given detectives one account of that Friday night. >> Tammy and Jonathan would constantly call children services after every time they seen Avery because of the custody battle that we had, they got visitation. >> It was um >> Okay. So you you won custody, right? >> And Tammy, she kept >> she would get >> visitation rights. >> She got visitation. Yes. >> Okay. It was late afternoon, early evening kind of a thing. Okay. >> And um and every the day after they had a visit, children, my case worker, Germaine, he was trying to close my case because the case worker on before she should have closed it 2 years ago and never did. >> Um >> who who was that person? >> Stephanie Smith. >> So [clears throat] she should have closed the case two years before. Why? Why do you say that? >> Um well, actually she was supposed to close it Sorry, not two years before. last year. >> Okay. >> You know, I had her in counseling because she needed help because she would pull out her hair. That's why her hair was cut because we told her she did it the next time cuz she'd pull it from the back and she knew the top part would cover it. So, we wouldn't see it unless we were giving her a shower or something. >> Okay. >> So, we told her the next time she did it, she was getting her haircut and the JFS case worker knew. That's what we had told her. And he said, "Well, you got to do what you got to do. Um cuz she would pull out chunks where she would bring false spots. >> Why [clears throat] why was she doing that? Do you know? >> When we would ask her why she did it, she said it was because she was angry. But when we'd ask her why she was angry, she would just say, "I don't know." So it was And then the therapist said it was because she had anxiety problems. Well, they put her on medication, but the medication wasn't working. >> What meds did they have her on? Um the first one that they tried was clonedine and she I don't know if she had like an allergic reaction to it or what. I actually got a picture I can show you but she had um something was wrong and um she this is what it did. The clonine was a patch that would go in the middle of her back and it [clears throat] did that. So I took her off. They gave her a pill >> like a bright red almost like a rash. >> Yeah. and she would itch at it. >> She would itch at it, take it off. So I'm like, "Okay, well obviously this isn't working." So then they gave her a pill, but I'm not quite sure what it was called. It started with a G. I do know that. So, and they the no matter what type of treatment we did um with the therapist, you know, ways [clears throat] to handle it, it just wasn't working cuz Avery would she'd get to the point she would just fall out and just start hitting her head, which I took her to the doctor or the hospital last September for it, >> okay? >> Because she got to the point where she didn't want to listen. She was pulling out her hair. Um so, we put her in the corner. Um, and she started banging her head on the wall. >> Okay. >> So, >> how how would how would she do that? >> Well, she was in the corner, so she just start going like this and left bruises on her. >> So, she basically self-inflicted >> bruising. >> Okay. Well, it sounds like >> Is it fair to say that [clears throat] she was probably a handful anyway and then it was kind of fueled by >> grandmother? Is that is that a fair assessment? Avery was [clears throat] Avery wasn't really a handful. She was a sweet child. She everybody loved her. She loved to make people laugh. She she pretty much until it got to the point like it got visit started being more and more current. >> Okay. >> Um that's when stuff would just come out. >> Let me ask you this. When when did you get um when was Avery living with you full time? April 30th of last year. >> Okay. So, April 30th of 2015. Um, were you with Charles then? >> Yes. >> Okay. [clears throat] So, you guys, the three of you guys were living all together at that point. >> Um, um, we moved into our house now. >> 1232 Beach. Okay. >> Right now, [clears throat] >> July 17th of last year. >> Okay. So for you know >> so July of last year um you guys were all together again. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like initially everything was going well. >> It >> Avery was doing fine. >> We had our we had our little moments. Okay. >> Um the first time it happened. >> I mean I'd seen her pull her hair out before but it was just kind of like a few strands. So I really, you know, didn't think anything of it. And then September last year, that's when she pulled out the most. >> Okay. >> And, you know, put her in the corner and she did all that. So, I took her to the hospital and um Stephanie, she was still my case worker at the time. >> Okay. >> Talked to Avery with another case worker without me in the room, talked to her three different times, and Avery told her the same thing that she did to herself, but she didn't know why. >> Okay. >> She had her out of my care until December 4th. And that's when you know everything like okay this is too much. So I started calling supervisor. >> So Stephanie got involved and actually removed Avery in July. >> No September. >> September. Forgive me. Um from September and it went all the way into December. Um you were under the impression that it was going to be a very short period of time and you were going to get Avery right back. >> That's what Stephanie said because she said although Avery says she get it to herself, they still have to investigate. And that's that. And I'm just the bad parent, I guess. >> Okay. >> So, cuz everything I did or tried to do to get Avery help, Stephanie made it seem like I was just a bad parent. I didn't know how to handle her. But, I mean, how do you handle a child that pulls out their hair, hits their head on the wall or on the floor, falls out, and, you know, bangs their head on the floor because >> and they they they can't tell you why. >> Okay. And they said they doped her up so bad that she was like a zombie. >> Jeez. >> So I'm like at least I don't feel so bad that somebody else has experienced this because I thought [clears throat] like everybody just made me seem like I was a bad parent because >> True. No. Yeah. And I and I Yeah. >> So I'm just like okay. Well there it's a chemical imbalance that was in her brain. How How would I know how? >> So you really didn't Yeah. You were >> I just did the best I could. >> Yeah. And I and I understand that. So, I mean, when she would fall when she would fall down because we, like I said, we didn't put her in the corner anymore. That was just because she bruised her face. So, we'd make her stand in the middle of the room or like I told you, we'd make her run. >> Okay. >> Um, because the last couple months, she just kind of got lazy. Um, if she didn't want to do it, she would tell you she didn't want to do it and she wasn't going to do it. And she'd throw herself down like a typical kid about to have a tantrum. But most kids fall forward and kicking feet, kicking, you know, their hands and whatnot. She would fall back and start hitting her head until >> Well, I I'm not allowed to pick her up. So, Charles would pick her up and try and hold her. >> Okay. >> And she's still trying to headbutt Charles and squirm and everything else. Pulled my car up well out from in front of my neighbor's driveway. Say goodbye to Charles, hug his kids, you know, that good fun stuff. Went in. And I was like, "Okay, well, school's getting ready to start, so how about we start working on, you know, stuff you know how to do?" And >> so, let me let me slow you up. So, you get home at roughly 1:45 and then Charles, he's leaving. >> Yeah, cuz he Well, he's actually supposed to start work at 1:00 in the afternoon. >> Okay. >> But because I don't get home, I don't get off till 1:30, the boss, his boss told me it's okay, just, you know, as soon as you get there, just clock in. >> Clock in. Okay. Um, >> so help help me understand what happened that night. >> Friday, we went upstairs, told her to go to the bathroom before. >> Okay. >> Um, cuz if I don't tell her, she won't go and then that'll be her excuse on why she peed on herself is because I didn't go before I went to bed. >> Okay. >> So, I make her go. Um, I didn't make her brush her teeth. >> Okay. >> Didn't make her brush her teeth. Um, she had when she went to bed, she had on a t-shirt and underwear. >> Okay. Is that typically what she wears? >> Usually, a lot of times I'll just let her sleep in like her panties just because I haven't went out and bought summer jammies. >> Okay. Is it is it hot inside the residence or what? >> Um, typically yes, but Friday it was raining. So, when it rains it kind of it kind of gets cool. So that and she's got the ceiling fan and then she's got a little box fan in her room. >> Okay. >> So typically it's it's not too bad. >> So Friday was comfortable. >> It was comfortable. Um cuz usually when it if it's not comfortable I make her sleep with pants on. >> Yeah. I mean I Yeah, you're right. Friday that Friday that was a heck of a rainstorm. >> Yeah. I was freezing. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Um and I laid her down. >> Okay. I don't know who that is. Um, so I laid her down. >> Now, does she have her own bed or >> Um, yes. There's two beds in there. One for her, one for my oldest daughter. Um, but she wasn't sleeping on her bed cuz she came back from one a visit with one of the grandparents. >> Okay. >> And she had bed bugs. >> So, >> your your daughter had bed bugs. >> Yeah. It was all over her bed. And so, her bed was stripped down. And so I still had her old toddler bed. Okay. >> Well, it wasn't put together, but I have the mattress. So, I just laid the mattress on the floor in between the two beds. >> Okay. Okay. >> Later on that, um, gave her hugs, kisses, you know, told her I loved her. See her I would see her later. I never would say I'd see her in the morning because I would never see her in the morning, >> right? >> Um, >> and everything was fine when you laid her down. >> Everything was fine. Um, I went downstairs to go get me some milk so I could take my prenatal vitamin. Went to the restroom, got myself ready for bed, turned on my TV, and >> So now you're back in your bedroom, like the master bedroom. Yeah. >> So you're watching TV. Okay. >> And I think I dozed off. Do you remember? Do you remember about what time? Um, you you laid her in bed and then >> I'm going to say it was probably 7:45 8:00. >> Is that early for you guys or No, cuz you you're exhausted. You've got to get up so early. >> We usually go to bed between anywhere between 7:30 and 8:00. >> Okay. >> So, it wasn't anything unusual. >> Okay. >> Um, >> so it was right around 8:00. And then after I got done getting myself together, it was [clears throat] probably 8:15 before I climbed in my bed. >> Okay. >> Um >> and she's and and again, you're doing a good job. I just I just want to make sure I understand everything. Okay, >> that's fine. >> So, she is on her um little toddler bed mattress on the floor >> because the bed um has bed bugs. >> Um she is dressed in a t-shirt in her underwear. What What color was the t-shirt? Do you remember? >> I think it was yellow. Okay. And it was just like little little girl panties that she wore. >> Yes. >> Okay. Did she sleep with a pillow or blankets? >> Um, she never really slept with a pillow. Okay. >> Every time I Well, when she was on her bed, the pillow was always on the floor or at the foot of the bed. So >> So she would kick it off or bump it off somehow. >> Yeah. So I never g I didn't give her a pillow, but I did give her a sheet. >> Okay. Um, so she had a sheet and like I said, I guess I dozed off >> and cuz next thing I remember is I heard a like a thud or a thump or something, a noise that came through the monitor and it woke me up and I was facing cuz the monitor would be on this side. I was facing this side >> and I rolled over and kind of jerked and I remember trying to trying to catch a vision, you know. Yeah, you were you were asleep and then now you're awake and you're trying to kind of collect yourself. >> So yeah, I guess I was off and didn't realize it. Um and usually cuz how our upstairs is set up. This is where >> Let me actually brought >> Yeah. No, no. Remember when remember when you gave us permission to go into your house? >> Yeah. >> Um >> so >> yeah. Yeah. So we these are the diagrams that we do when we do these kinds of investigations. >> This is my this is the nursery seat and this is our bedroom. We can go around cuz that's our bath. We can go around into her room. Okay. >> Or we could go across. >> So typically and this is where the nightstand is that has >> the monitor. I sleep on this side. So I would typically I would just yell in there because she can hear. But for whatever reason that night something just told me to get up and go in there. Okay. >> And I went in there and before I could say anything, she's like, "I'm hot and I'm thirsty." And her body felt normal temperature, but her face was just >> really hot. >> Okay. >> And then, but the room was cool. >> Um, so I was like, "Okay, let me, you know, let's go take your temperature." And by the time we kind came back into here, cuz this is where everything is, this light was on so I could see to go through. Um, I noticed her face was just like really red. >> Okay. >> So that's when I put her in the shower. Well, in the bathtub and I sat her down and I >> You talking about >> right here? Yeah. Okay. >> I walked her from here. Well, she walked with me from here. She climbed in the bathtub. >> Okay. >> And I told her to sit down. So she said okay. And I turned on the water cold, took my nozzle off the the hook and was spraying her and I changed the thing to so she could take a drink and I changed it back and spraying her. And then next thing I know cuz I'm over the bathtub >> like this like you would if you're giving your kid back >> and my arm is just kind of like limp over here and I'm just, you know, and she just kind of falls back on me. So, I threw the shower thing, turned it off, and I went to adjust my hand so I could have a better grip of her. And I put my hand on her chest. And as I was laying her down, her heart was really fast. And by the time she was down, it was >> it had stopped. >> Okay. So, as you were spraying her, um, she kind of fell limp and then you went to check her heart and you her heart was racing. >> Mhm. And then it it was gone. >> And then it it stopped beating. >> Yeah. And um >> I laid her down completely. Um >> I tried to call 911 from the bathroom, but with my house service is kind of eh. >> Okay. >> But you would figure even though I didn't have much service. It's emergency call that it would have went through and it didn't. >> Okay. So you're like in a bad spot for your phone. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> It is horrible. Okay. >> So, I tried I think it was like three times and then I finally went downstairs and out onto my sidewalk outside and it went through and when I got the lady on there, >> you called 911. >> I got the lady on there and um [snorts] I was telling her what happened. She's trying to calm me down so she can understand. Um she's like, "Well, this I need you to go lay her flat." And she goes, "I'm going to talk you through CPR." So, I grabbed her out the bathtub and I laid her on the bathtub. >> So, you stayed on you stayed on the line. Yeah. And you were able to keep your signal. Okay. So, you returned back to the bathroom. >> Um, I laid her on the floor like kind of in the doorway right here. >> Okay. >> Um, and she told me to put my one hand up under her neck and the one on her forehead to straighten it. Um, open her mouth, breathe in. Um, I know when I was trying to open her mouth, >> okay, >> it was kind of like it was clenched shut. >> Okay. Um, but she told me to breathe in her mouth two times a minute each time and then do 30 chest compressions. And she wanted me to do the chest compressions or count the chest compressions out loud. >> Um, and I did it. I was going on my third round to do the chest compressions when the paramedics came upstairs. Um they picked Avery up off the floor, sat her on my bed, and then um then they picked her back up and walked down downstairs and um where the ambulance was parked, it was kind of like halfway up the street. Okay. >> So they had to walk [clears throat] halfway up the street to put her in there. >> Okay. >> And then after that, I >> they wouldn't let me in the ambulance. So I don't know >> to the ambulance. >> Yes. Okay. >> I don't know why they set her down. They don't >> Okay. Okay. >> They Yeah. They just set her down and then take her back. >> So that that day, um, did did Avery did she present like any symptoms of being sick or not feeling well? >> Um, >> I mean, for example, did did she have a fever? >> I didn't check her. The first time I checked her was when she said she was hot. >> Okay. But that was I'm talking about like >> during the day. >> Yeah. During the day. Did she did she present any symptoms? Did did she have a runny nose? >> Um, no. >> Did she have a cough? >> No. Um, >> I mean, was she lethargic or was she doing okay? >> She was >> during the day >> she was she was okay. Um, >> okay. >> She >> trying to better understand. Um, >> she kind of acted like herself, I guess. I mean, >> well, and and that's what I'm trying to understand because when when when you put her down um for bed that night, >> she she felt fine. >> She was okay. >> Yeah, she felt >> Did she have any um did she have any falls or did she have any um traumas? Did she hit her head or anything like that during the day? >> Not when she was with me. >> Okay. As far as I'm aware, she didn't have any with Charles. I think the last time she decided to throw a tantrum a couple days of each other, which I >> No, but I'm talking about like that Friday. >> No, she the last time >> Charles did not report, Excuse me. [clears throat] Charles did not report anything to you other than when she was, we'll say, exploring. >> Yeah, >> that was the only significant event that day. >> Yes. He can't [clears throat and cough] say anything about hitting her head. >> Okay. >> Um, yeah. The last time she hit her head was I think maybe a week prior when she got in trouble and she fell out and hit her head on the floor. >> That was a week prior, too. >> Yeah. Which I didn't do too much grocery shopping. So, I was literally just getting minor things. >> This fit happened at the grocery store. >> Um, [clears throat] no. But I did end up hitting her in the head and knocking her down because she kind of like went out of sight and I had a basket and I kind of turned around. >> Okay. >> And >> are you talking about like one of the plastic the grocery >> and I grabbed her and she fell. >> Yeah. >> Which kind of made me feel like super crap? Cuz I was like, "Oh my god, I couldn't find my child." >> Yeah. That was an accident. You're just turning. >> Yeah. Um but those were, like I said, those were like a week before all that happened. >> Okay. So, other than that, >> she had a clean bill of health that day. There was no there was no falls. There was no significant injuries. Um, >> I [clears throat] I don't think she said anything to Charles about not feeling good, but like I said, I know when I went in there to go tell her to lay down and stop moving, um, that's when she said she was hot. And like I said, she everything, excuse me, everything felt fine except her face. And it was just just really warm. Okay. >> So, >> I mean, what what is your thought on what happened to her? >> I've been playing that night over and over and I honestly I don't know. I mean, cuz that thump or thud or whatever it was I heard, that's the biggest mystery to me at all. Cuz I don't know if maybe she decided, "Oh, well, I don't want to go to bed right now." and hit her head or because Tyler mattresses aren't that thick, so it's easy enough to bounce her head back and still hit the ground. >> Okay. >> So, I don't know if that's what I heard. I don't know if I heard her stomping her feet on the floor since she was close enough to the floor that she could have. Do you think, excuse [clears throat] me, do you think that this was a result of like an illness or a disease or do you think her death was the result of an injury? >> She was, as far as I was aware, she was healthy. So, I want to say it was just more of an illness that I didn't know about. >> Okay. You think it was like a flu bug that raised her her temperature up real high and stopped her heart or >> I'm not too sure on medical. >> Okay. So honestly I don't >> Did um did the the doctors at Children's did they talk to you about um >> her her injuries or her illness or >> did she have a disease or >> Oh, they told me at the hospital cuz I was concerned that because she was saying she was thirsty and I gave her something to drink and then like right after I started spraying her again, she kind of just went limp after she drank some water. um that my concern was cuz I thought I heard lung or water on her lungs when I was doing the CPR and asked if there was water and they said [clears throat] they said there was no water on her lungs. Um >> yeah, she definitely didn't drown. >> They did say that there was abrasions on her lungs, but they told me that it was from doing the chest compression. >> Chest compressions >> since her heart had stopped a total of four times on Friday. Okay. >> But that's all I know. So, they didn't give you a whole lot of information. No, that sound like it. Okay. >> So, I mean, I had questions, you know, cuz I was asking them about her jaw locking up, what could have caused that? Um, and apparently, according to my sister, which I didn't know. Um, cuz my my family is a little [clears throat] I have a legal dad and then I have a biological dad. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, my sister on my biological dad's side um was telling me that seizures once in the family and she was telling me or when I was telling her about the jaw and how it kind of locked up. Okay. >> She goes, "Do they think she had a seizure?" I said, "I don't know." >> So, um, >> and it was just the two of you guys at home that night. >> Oh, Charles was at work. >> Okay. >> So, it was Yeah, it was just me and it was just me and Avery. >> Did Did you Did you actually touch her head? >> Yeah, I touched her. >> Did she feel warm to the touch to you? >> Yeah. Is that the reason you put her into the the shower? >> Well, I was originally just going to take her temperature and um when I seen her face, that's what made me concerned cuz I mean I felt her hot before, but her face was just never so red. >> So, that's kind of what concerned me. I know actually she did complain a couple days prior that she wasn't feeling good. >> Okay. But she was still acting normal where most kids when they don't feel good, they just kind of they're sluggish and they don't >> Yeah, I get it. >> She She said she didn't feel good, but she's she felt normal. She was acting normal, so I didn't think anything of it. >> Right. Right. >> Um but >> well, here here's what here's what I've and this is going to be something that I want you to understand. Okay. Here here's what I've learned um since we spoke last. Okay. Um so the medical doctors they are telling me she suffered um what they call subdural hematoma. Have you ever heard a phrase or >> I know what hematoma means that [clears throat] it has to refer to blood. >> I do know that but subdural I don't >> Well, here here's here's what they're telling me. Okay. Um they are explaining to me um that she suffered um a significant blunt force trauma to her head. Okay. Um she was struck, she was slammed. Um that created um all of that bleeding which put an enormous amount of pressure on her brain. Okay. Um, that's the cause of why, you know, she got sick. Um, that's the cause of of of why she died. Okay. Um, it's not the result of, you know, an illness. It's not the result of a disease, any pre-existing anything. Okay? Um, it's not even the result of her accidentally bumping her head. Okay? Um, [clears throat] one of the things that I that I noticed, let's see here. when I went in after [clears throat] I I spoke to you, um I had the occasion to go in and see your daughter Avery. And [clears throat] one of the things that I noticed, um there was significant bruising right up her spinal column. You can see those red marks essentially right above each vertebrae. I mean, you can count them. They're so obvious. They're so apparent. Okay. And then I also noticed a lot of bruising um in and around her um bottom and up and down the backs of her legs. [snorts] Are you aware of Are [clears throat] you aware of those those bruises and how how that happened or >> I know I know every time she gets spank in her butt, she gets a bruise and I had spanked her butt that Monday. >> Okay. Well, you told me initially that you and Charles didn't use corporal punishment. You didn't you didn't spank her. >> No, that Monday. So, how do you how how did you spank her? >> Um, so I gave her a shower and cleaned her up and I did spank her butt on that Monday. >> Okay. There's a lot of bruises there. You can see that for yourself. In and around her bottom, backs of her legs. How How did you How did you spank her? With your hand? I spanked her with my hand, but I've >> open hand or >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Um twice. I never spank her more than twice if I spank her, which isn't all that often. And the stairs are the backs of her legs. I don't know what that's from. >> Okay. What What What about her back? >> Again, I I don't know about her back. >> Okay. cuz that's the first time I'm seeing those bruises. Cuz when I gave her a shower, those weren't there. >> So those weren't there um that night, Friday night when you >> No, I didn't >> cleaned her up or >> No, I had seen on Friday. [clears throat] >> Okay. Watch the order the detective works in because the order is the strategy. For about 9 minutes before he says a word about the autopsy, he asks only about things that did not happen. No fever, no runny nose, no cough, not lethargic, no falls, no traumas, no head injury. He walks her to the phrase himself, a clean bill of health, and she agrees to it. Then he asks her to choose between an illness and an injury and she chooses illness. Only once every exit is closed does he open the medical file. He is not testing whether she is lying. He is fixing the version she will have to defend. The bruising photographs do something different. They produce the first movement in her account all interview. She has told him that she and Charles do not use corporal punishment. Shown marks on the child's bottom and the backs of her legs. She now says she spanked her on Monday. He does not chase the change. He lets it sit and turns to the sink. Do you recognize you recognize these clothing articles? >> Yeah, that's from her room. And I'm not quite sure what that is. Okay. So the the the pink top and the the blue jeans, they belong to Avery. >> Yeah. >> You recognize this? >> Yeah. That's what we woke my dog with when she poops in the house. And that's duct tape. >> Okay. >> [clears throat] >> You recognize that photo there? [clears throat] >> It looks like a lot of duct tape. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it looks like it's um got her hair on it, which we did have her use tape to get her hair up off our floor. >> Okay. >> You see anything else on that adhesive part of the duct tape? It's her hair. And what else? >> It looks like some discoloration. Okay. >> Well, they're they're the pink pink little fibers from her pink shirt. Okay, here here's the thing. Okay. Um, [clears throat] I want you to hear me. Don't don't say anything. I want you to listen to me for a second. Okay, I'm on your side. All right. But this is what I know. The injury your daughter sustained, okay? It wasn't an accidental injury. It wasn't the result of an illness or a disease. you were the only person in that house with your daughter when she fell ill. Okay? If there was a situation that got out of hand, for example, all right, that you need to talk to me about, I want to address it right here, right now. Okay? We need to get to the bottom of it. Work as a team together. Okay? Because from where I sit [clears throat] and I'm looking at what I know I have and then I'm listening to what you're telling me, it's clear to me that you're not telling me the truth about what occurred. Okay? I have an open mind. I'm a good guy. I really am. I haven't made up my mind one way or the other. But if there was some kind of a situation involving you and Avery that Friday night, this is your opportunity to talk to me about it right here, right now. Does that make sense to you? If you lost your cool for a second, then we need to talk about it. All right? We can work through it together, but you can't lie about it. You can't lie about that. Okay? because we know it didn't happen that way. And it's not [clears throat] me, the medical science behind it. We know that. It's not my opinion. It's the science. Okay. All right. So, let's take a deep breath here. We're cool. We're friends. Okay. I'm not upset. I'm not angry. I just need to understand what happened between you and Avery. Was she kind of pushing your buttons or >> No. Friday to Friday she wasn't >> okay >> nothing happened >> well how did she how did she uh how did she sustain that injury >> I don't know >> okay you you are listening to me right now Britney Britney listen to me okay I'm throwing you throwing [clears throat] you a lifeline okay I'm [snorts] trying to I'm trying to do a good job as an investigator okay I'm trying to fully understand um what happened to your daughter your daughter's not with us anymore And that makes me feel sad. It really does. I love children. Um the the notion, the story that you're telling me, um I know is not true. Okay. Um you give her a clean bill of health, you lay her down, and then an hour later you wake up to some noise. You go in. um you're creating this kind of she's hot, I put her in the tub scenario. I know that's not true. That's what I'm trying to get across to you. And I want to give you an opportunity. I want to give you a chance to talk to me about this. I mean, if something happened and there was an accident and you got nervous and you told me one thing when in fact something else occurred, that's what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to get that across to you right now. I need to know now. >> I understand that. But nothing happened. What I'm telling you is what happened. >> Okay. You do understand what I'm telling you is absolutely the truth though. It's a sub it's a subdural hematoma. It's it's the result of blunt force that created that injury. That's not that's not that's not a policeman telling you that. That's that's medical science. That's what that's what I know. That's the information that I have. Um, you know, they did a full autopsy on your daughter. Okay, that's not even open to debate. It's not debatable. I mean, my whole thing is I thought, [clears throat] you know, maybe maybe there was something um that occurred and because of your history, maybe you felt a little bit nervous to share that with me initially. And I do understand that. Okay, I get it. But what I don't understand is if something did happen like that, um, that I'm being open and upfront with you telling you, and then you keep that information from me. Does that make sense? It doesn't make sense to me that you would intentionally keep that from me unless you were trying to hide something. I don't think you are. I just think you're nervous. I need your help. >> And I told you what I know. >> Okay. >> I didn't do anything to my daughter. >> Was it Was it an accident? >> Were you doing one thing and something else happened? Were you intending to do one thing and something got out of control? >> When she told me she was hot, I got her up and we walked into the bathroom. She got into the tub when I seen her face. and I turned on the shower and that is everything that happened Friday night. >> Okay. Well, that's not everything and you know that. Okay. And what I just told you about [clears throat] you helping me understand the truth from that night. Um that's my expectation of everybody that come in here and sit in and talk with me is that they be truthful and that they be helpful. Okay. And you're doing neither at this point. >> It's cuz I don't know how that happened to my daughter. >> Okay. Well, >> I understand you don't believe me. >> Well, hang on. Hang on. The injuries were so significant. Okay. The injury was so significant that when she suffered that blow to her head immediately were present, she went out. Okay. the pink top in the blue jeans in the duct tape. Do you know where we found that at? >> You do know. >> I'm going to assume her clothes [clears throat] were in her room. >> Okay. Well, the the pink top and the blue jeans and the duct tape were in the sink in the bathroom and it was wet. >> The top and the blue jeans Britney, [music] Britney, listen to Britney, listen to me, okay? You're not you're not trusting me. And part of me understands that. Part of me does, but I am I'm lending you an opportunity. I'm giving you a chance to explain what occurred in this. I fell ill. We know that's not true. Okay. >> That that head trauma that head trauma was so significant. All right. the head trauma was so significant that those symptoms would have presented themselves immediately like she went out and I know she had on the pink top and the little blue jeans. >> No, when picked her up, she was on the floor in a yellow top >> that was soaking wet. >> So, why would I change her clothes? >> I don't know. Explain that to me. >> I didn't change her clothes. She walked to the bathroom with me. She climbed in that bathtub. I don't care that you don't believe me. That is what happened. And now I'm I'm done cuz I'm getting to the point I'm upset. >> Okay. >> It is upsetting. You're right. It's very upsetting. Well, here's the deal. Okay. Going to have you relax for a second. Okay, I'm going to leave the room and talk to some of my bosses. Okay, I want you to stay seated. Kind of relax a little bit and I'll be right back in with you. Okay, you got any questions for me? Here's uh here's what's going on. Okay. Um this is Detective Kelly. Okay. Based on my investigation, okay, which included, you know, your interview and and us going to the house and the autopsy. Okay. We're charging you. You understand that? Okay. Um, is there anything that you're unclear on or you want explanation on or is there something I can do to >> No, attorney. >> Help facilitate it. Okay, that's fine. [snorts] All right. What I'd like for you to do is um have you stand up? Okay. Kelly's going. She's How long How far along are you again? I'm sorry. >> Seven more. Okay. Just leave that out. >> Yeah. Out of your pocket. We're going to take it out anyway. >> There you go. There you go. >> Turn around for me. You're How far? Seven months. >> You don't have a key on you, do you? To keep these from getting any tighter. >> Um I can Well, I do what I I don't right now, but I can use one. So, >> why don't you stand up for me a little bit and spread your legs in front for me? Do you have anything else in your pockets anywhere? >> I just have my car key. >> Okay, I'm going to grab that out. Anything that's going to poke me or stick me? >> No. >> Anything you shouldn't have anywhere? >> No. >> Okay. You wearing a bra? This one? >> Okay. >> Anything else? Anywhere in these little pockets? No. >> Medication? No. You like that? I'm about this pocket really quick. I've never seen any child do anything like that. That's when, you know, I told Britney like, "Look, this something has got to be done with her." And from my knowledge, Britney tried from there all the way up until then to actually get somebody to listen to her. Um, a neighbor of mine told me that they had they're a uh they used to be a foster family, >> okay? And they had a foster child that acted just like Avery with like the hair pulling and stuff only when she got mad. >> Okay. >> And when they took her to the doctor, the doctor's uh oh admitted her into a uh psychiatric ward. >> Okay. >> And they they said there was some kind of chemical imbalance in her brain. It kept her [clears throat] heavily medicated. So, was she okay otherwise or >> was this a daily thing or was it only when you would challenge her and try to discipline her? >> Yeah, pretty much. You know, when she got mad at us for doing something that she wasn't supposed to and we tell her, you know, hey, just go sit, you know, time out or whatever. And I guess maybe she didn't feel like it was wrong. That's why she got mad. Normally, if she knows it was wrong, she wouldn't get mad about it. >> Okay. a temper tantrum maybe, right? Cuz she's angry. >> Yeah. >> Kind of falling down on the floor and kicking and slamming and carrying on. Right. >> Yeah. >> She's four. >> Yeah. But the hair pulling, you know, this is something >> I don't know what to call that. >> Okay. >> And >> so, um, there was that first incident for you which alarmed you. Um, and your words to Britney were basically, hey, look, we need to we need to figure this out. We need to do something about that. >> Yes. >> And then that incident prompted the doctor's visit or the therapist's visit. And then >> she was already going when I first met Britney, she was already going to a counselor. >> Okay. >> Uh let me think. It's been a while. I um I didn't even know about Avery's incident. You know, her first one that she had. Okay. until after the fact of me, Britney, and Avery moved into that house when uh Stephanie, I can't think of her name, she's a case worker that was on there, told me about it. >> Okay. And what did Stephanie tell you about? >> Um told me the reason that, you know, Britney had a case is because Avery had a head injury at like 6 months old. >> Okay. >> And that was the first time I ever heard of it. >> What more do you know about that? That's That's all I know. >> Well, I mean, do you know any additional details about what happened to Britney over that or >> um if I'm right, uh Britney did talk a little bit about it, but you know, I really didn't pay attention too much. Uh I want to say she said she did 6 months. um that uh the only reason she pleaded guilty to it was because her lawyer told her that would be the best thing to do at that time. >> Okay. >> And that uh >> Did that concern you? >> She told you that >> a little bit. Yeah. >> Okay. >> You know, I wasn't too sure what to think of. >> Were you married to her at the time or No. >> No. Okay. It's my understanding based on our first conversation that um Britney is currently pregnant with your your child. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay, that is true. >> Yes, sir. And that I want my child. >> Definitely. I mean, >> I understand that. >> That's why I was telling you over the phone, you know, I mean, it just didn't work out between us. >> So, you're having this conversation with Britney. Um Britney is telling you that she actually did like a like a prison bit >> I >> for jail or whatever. >> Yeah. She didn't say exactly what. She just said she did 6 months, you know. >> Um and that was before you guys got married. >> Yeah. >> All this kind of came out. Um did that concern you? >> It did a little bit, you know, because I didn't know the whole story. >> Sure. But to be honest with you, I think one of the main reasons I didn't go anywhere is cuz I was attached to Avery. She didn't have uh a father figure to look up to. Okay. >> You know, and actually I done more for her than my own two boys. Well, and [clears throat] I'm glad you brought that up because that's kind of what what what I'm what I'm hoping for here is today and I want you to look I want you to trust me and believe me on this. Okay? I know you did not hurt Avery. All right? I know that. Um, what I also know is is that the injury that Avery sustained was a significant injury. Okay. It was Go ahead. >> Yeah. I was going to generally ask what what kind of injury was it cuz I still don't know. >> Well, she she received um a significant head injury. Okay. Um, basically it's blunt force trauma to the to the back part of her head. All right. Um, it's consistent with being punched. It's consistent with being kned or kicked. It's consistent with being slammed um against a hard object, wall, a floor. That's the injury that we are we are talking about. Okay. I know that you cared for Avery. I get that. Um, and that's the reason why I'm kind of hoping I'm counting on you to come in. My my expectation for you today is to be completely honest with me and truthful with me. >> And you know, that's the kind of person I am. One of the things that we spoke about um you know that Friday night early Saturday or yeah early Saturday morning was just you know the kinds of discipline that you would impose the kinds of discipline that um Britney would impose upon Avery. [snorts] And I kind I remember this pretty well because I thought it was a little unique. Um you denied using any kind of corporal punishment at all. And and you understand what the word corporal punishment means. I'm not trying to be rude. >> Kind of. Yes. >> Okay. >> You don't spank, hit, slap. You don't physically >> cuz I've been through that. >> Discipline Avery. That's what you told me. >> Yeah. Because I've been through that. >> Yeah. >> And you actually told me that one of the forms of discipline is that you would have her run in place. And I think you said for every um for every year she is old, you would have her run or jog in place for a minute that she chose. >> Okay. Yeah. Okay. >> We all I would always give her options and let her pick on what she wanted. >> Okay. So, [snorts] it's fair to say based on that statement that you never hit her or slapped her or kicked her or injured her that way. No. Okay. All right. Um, and I appreciate that. I understand that. >> Yeah. because I I went through that stuff when I was a kid and I remembered how it was and I Yeah. [clears throat] Let me show you here. You recognize this photograph here? >> Yes. That's Serenity's bed. >> That's Serenity's bed. >> Yes. >> Okay. Where does Serenity live? >> Uh with her dad, if I'm correct. >> Okay. What about the photograph here? >> Yeah. Can you explain to me what that is? We uh she came back from a visit. >> Okay. >> I can't remember which Avery. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I can't remember which person she was with >> and when she came back uh we noticed a couple nights later I did when I was in there vacuuming that there was bed bugs on her bed. >> So I had her bed up sprayed down. I didn't want her to lay on it, >> you know, with the chemicals or whatever. So I put this one down here for her. >> Okay. >> Because she this one's too tall. I didn't want to roll out of it. >> Okay. >> They're not the same bed. >> No, these are bunk beds. One, this one is a top, I do believe. Or this one might be the top. One's top, one's the bottom. But we put her on the one that was closer to the ground. >> Okay. >> Yeah. But yeah, there was bed bugs on her bed, and I was trying to get rid of those. >> So, you laid >> That's a treated. Just so I'm clear, this one's Avery's bed. >> Yes, sir. >> This is the one that had the bed bugs >> that I seen. Yes. >> So, you treated her mattress, lifted it up, and treated the mattress with chemicals. >> The mattress and the whole wood. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> And then you ended up laying the toddler mattress right next to the the bed you treated. >> It wasn't right next to it when I laid it there. So, I don't >> Okay. Is there any reason why you just didn't put her in the other bed? she so she wouldn't fall out of the bed being taller. I mean, even when I sat on it, um I [clears throat] don't know how to say it, my legs weren't bent like this. >> Okay. Show you another photograph here. >> You recognize that? >> No, sir. >> You know where it's at? >> It looks like it's in my bathroom. >> Okay. What do you see in the photograph? Uh, our clothes in the sink. >> Okay. >> Some makeup, hair. >> Whose clothes? >> Uh, looks like Avery's clothes. >> Okay. >> And if you look more closely, pay attention to the picture. You can look at it. It's okay. What do you see on top of the clothing? I'm not sure what that is. What is it? I'm not sure what that is. I I mean, I see something black up there. Well, let me show you a second photograph also from your bathroom. [snorts] Okay. That's our dog thing that I was using for the dog from when she was painting the house. >> Okay. What's Help me understand the dog thing. It's um a training thing that I've seen. >> Okay. >> You know, you take some paper, roll it up, put a little tape on it, and smack them on the nose with it if they're doing something bad. >> Okay. >> It's something. >> So, you you made that thing? >> Yes, sir. I'm not going to deny it. >> Well, please. Yeah. Please don't. I mean, it's it's okay. I want to know. I want to know the truth. >> Oh, yeah. That was for a dog. I seen it on a video on the internet. Okay. >> You know, it's to help train dogs if you smack them on the nose. >> Okay. with it a little bit and it was working. >> Okay. >> But yeah, I that's what that was. [clears throat] >> So, go back to this photograph here. What do you see right right in there? What was that? I said right here. >> Yeah. Okay. It looks like tape. >> Yeah, duct tape. >> Now, why would it be tap in my sink? >> Well, I was hoping you could help me with that cuz that was the question that I had. >> That's >> on top of >> her clothes. >> On top of Avery's clothing in your sink. >> My first question though is >> there's duct tape on top of the clothing. Okay. All right. Well, the first thought that came to my head is why is Amy's clothes in my sink in the first place? >> Okay, good, good question. I have that same question. >> Do you have any knowledge of any of this here that I'm showing you? >> No. >> Okay. That's why I'm asking you these questions so you could tell me what's going on. Why? >> So you recognize So you recognize the clothing articles in the sink as belonging to your stepdaughter Avery. >> They look like it. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Fair enough. >> They look smaller. >> Okay. They are. >> And I want to know why they're in there in the first place. Okay. >> I mean, >> well, and directly on top of the clothing items, you're right. It's it's the duct tape. Okay. And I'll tell you this, the duct tape that that you see the roll right next to your little dog slaughter. Okay. Okay. And I know to me to me the naked eye it looks like it's the same tape. Okay. From that from that roll. Okay. If you look if you look closely on the adhesive side of the duct tape, the white side, the adhesive side. >> Okay. >> What do you see? >> I see little lines on it. No, but I'm talking about sticking to the adhesive side of it. >> That's what I'm looking at there. I see it's like little >> Yeah. >> lines. I I don't know. >> Little pink little pink fibers. >> I don't know what that is. >> Okay. Well, again, to me, it looks like little pink fibers. Okay. That I suspect came from that little pink shirt. And then in addition to the little pink fibers, uh there's something else on there, too. >> Oh. See, I didn't see anything pink. This is what I was looking at is the little lines here. >> Okay. What do you think that is? >> I don't know. That's what I'm asking. >> Well, it's it's head hair. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um, [snorts] do you have any knowledge of that duct tape in the sink on top of her clothing? >> Definitely not. Okay. >> My adult thing should actually been downstairs. >> Okay. cuz that's where I always cap it because we kept our dog in the kitchen. Um, [clears throat] so can you >> Well, let me Well, let me let me ask you this. Um, so just so you understand again, it's not me making this up, right? We have Avery's clothing in the sink. And directly on top of her clothing, we have [snorts] this wadded up ball of used duct tape. Okay. To me, it looked like the pink residue was the same pink as the shirt. And those little lines, as you call them, those little lines It's it's human head hair. It's not dog hair. It's it's human head hair is what it is. >> And that's what >> Okay. >> I'm asking you all is >> I'm really really confused on, you know, why that would be >> in your upstairs bath. >> That's why I'm asking you. I don't know either. >> Okay. Um, >> I mean, because I've never seen any clothes in my life. >> Let me ask let me let me ask you this. So, >> what do what do you think? And I know you don't know. You're saying you were at work and you were I checked. I know that. Okay. Don't uh don't think I didn't. All right. Um, play detector for a second. What do you think you got going on here, man? I >> I mean it doesn't look good, does it? >> No. >> Okay, tell me why. >> I mean, why would there Why would the clothes be in the sink in the first place? If you know >> is what I'm wondering. >> Well, the clothing was wet. >> Why was it wet? >> Okay. And I mean, the duct tape, I mean, what do you think? What are you thinking? >> I mean, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes. I mean, it was either honor, >> okay, >> or some I don't I mean, that would be my first guess. >> Would you ever tape up Avery? >> Hell no. >> Okay. >> Definitely not. Like I said, that little girl is my world. I would have gave my life for her. It's just hard to turn away from things like the bruising. It's hard to turn away from things like the wet clothing and the duct tape on top of the wet clothing and what appears to be the little fibers transferred onto the adhesive side of the duct tape. The little head hair transferred onto the adhesive side of the duct tape. I mean, it's hard for me to even That's shocking. Okay, that is shocking. And then you put all of this together with the fact that she suffered Avery suffered a significant non-ACL blow to the back of her head. You're not home. Nobody else is there but Britney and Avery. The doll couldn't have done it, right? >> No, definitely not. That' be something new for everyone. >> I mean, I'm just trying to understand. >> The way you guys are, not you guys, but with the way you showed me those pictures. >> Yeah. >> Now, in my head, it makes me think that she done something. >> Okay. >> But I don't know what. I mean, I wish I knew. Honestly, I really do. >> I mean, you just you understand the the weird situation that I'm in because >> Yeah. I mean, >> it's Well, hear me out. These are things that I know we have. These are things that these really aren't these are things that are physical in nature. I know I have these things. It's not really a matter of my opinion. You see what I'm saying? I mean, she's bruised all up. I mean, I know medically that the injuries she sustained was not from an accident. It wasn't from an illness. She didn't fall ill. Bry's trying to tell me that, you know, everything was fine. And then, you know, in the middle of the night, she wakes up, she's hot, and the child fell ill and and and went into a cardiac arrest. And and what I'm what I'm telling you [clears throat] what I'm telling you is that's a lie. That's not true. I know that's not true. >> Okay. Because yeah, that's the same thing I was getting told. And believe me, I was on it every day questioning her about what happened at night. >> So, what what has I'm glad you brought that up. So, um have you had the occasion to talk with Britney since all this? >> I mean, yeah. I keep asking her the same stuff. >> Okay. And so what's Britney telling you? >> The same story over and over that she heard a noise in the, you know, in Avery's room, went in there to check on her and Avery told her she was hot. Okay. >> And she went to take Avery into the bathroom, you know, seen that her face was red, so put her in the shower to cool her off. And then she just stopped. Whatever she meant by just stopped. I I don't know, but I just wish I was there, honestly. >> Um, do you believe her? >> I mean, I tell her I do, but at the same time, I don't. >> Okay. How come? Why not? >> Because I don't know what happened. I'm a person that, you know, if I don't see it, I don't know what to believe. >> Okay. Well, let me slow you for a second. Okay. The second interview is built on a sentence the detective says early and never takes back. I know you did not hurt Avery. Having removed Charles Mays as a suspect, he largely stops questioning him and starts briefing him. Most of what follows is the detective showing rather than asking. The bed, the sink, the roll of tape, the fibers, the hair. The few real questions are the ones you would put to a colleague. Play detective for a second. What do you think you got going on here? The effect is that the case gets argued to the one person in the room with a reason to resist it and it lands in stages. He answers the clothing question with a question of his own. He calls the photographs shocking. Then unprompted, he says it makes him think she does something. Note what the detective never does. He never asks Charles to accuse his wife. He asks him what he believes and waits. >> What if I [clears throat] give you a scenario and I'm not I hope it's not too too simple, but I'm I'm kind of a simple person, okay? I'm a simple guy like breaking breaking things down to where I can understand it. So if a kid got hit by a car, kid ran out into the street and the kid got run over by a car and had all these traumatic injuries, you know, broken bones, head injury, whatever. Um, and then I brought the kid to you and I said, "Hey, you know, little Jimmy has the flu. What are you going to What are you going to say to me? >> Well, if he got hit by a car. >> But you don't know that. You didn't see it. But you know the injuries. >> I'm going to look at it. I'm going to try to find out what happened. >> Okay. >> Of course. >> And then you find out that he's got broken bones and he's got a a significant head injury and I repeatedly tell you, "No, you just got the flu. What do you think?" You can answer. It's okay. that something happened to him. >> Yeah. >> Other than him being sick. >> Exactly. >> And see that I mean >> see that's what I'm trying to get across to you. I want you to understand this. Okay. >> I mean that's what I you know that's what I was trying to tell you is you know that's what threw me off myself. Her just telling me that all of a sudden she was gone. Like she just there was nothing from her. I don't I don't get it. I don't I don't get the whole thing honestly. Okay. Well, I think you get it. You just don't want to believe it. Okay. You You said you've got some issue or whatever with learning. Well, maybe you do, maybe you don't. >> I know. Well, hang on. But I know you are a smart enough man to understand what I'm posing to you. We have your stepdaughter. All right. the victim of a horrendous traumatic uh trauma to her head versus well everything was fine and she just got sick and she was high and then her heart stopped. I mean you've got Yeah. See I two different things that aren't consistent with each other. That's what was throwing me off the whole time. I mean, I that's why I said, you know, if I was I wish I was there to be able to know exactly what happened. Like I told you, it doesn't matter if it [clears throat] was that or if it was the other one. Either way it goes, you wouldn't know because if she would have just just say for instance, if I was there and I seen her hurt that little girl like that to cause that injury to do that, 911 would have been called on me. >> Okay. >> You know, I mean, I wouldn't have hurt [clears throat] I wouldn't hurt her to hurt her, you know. >> Was Britney ever violent with you? >> No. That's what that's what shocks me about this whole thing. The only time we would ever argue is about what to eat >> if we're going to go out somewhere. >> So your your statement is is that Britney and Avery had a good relationship? >> For as much as I know. Yeah. And you never minus the one time when you saw Britney spank her on her bare bottom. You're telling me that you've never seen Britley Britney, excuse me, hurt Avery, hit Avery, slap Avery, kick Avery. >> No, I mean, unless it was a show, you know what I'm saying? I mean, maybe she was a different person while I wasn't there. >> I mean, is that possible? >> It could be from everything that I've been hearing lately. Okay. >> Well, I mean, do do you believe me? I mean, I want Do you believe me when I show you these things? >> Yeah. I mean, >> okay, >> that's what I'm saying. I mean, I I want you to understand me that, you know, these are things that I know to be true because I was there. Um, and before that night, I had never met you. Correct. >> No. I mean, >> I don't know Britney. I've never met Britney. Right. I was called there to investigate what happened to Avery. And these are the things that I find and they're just not consistent with the initial information that I got. You know, this is consistent with a little girl that had been physically abused. The initial information that I got, you know, this is consistent with a little girl that had been physically abused. Like I said, to my knowledge, honestly, I don't know what Britney done when I was gone. I couldn't tell you. But I would never have a problem with letting somebody come in to look at her because um let me think of his name. He's case worker. Germaine, I think it is. >> Germaine. Okay. >> Yeah. He's came out several times, you know, and I wouldn't mind him coming out just to check up on Avery. Go for it, you know. So your attitude was you had nothing to hide? >> No. >> Okay. >> And you don't [clears throat] remember ever seeing any suspicious bruising on your stepdaughter? No, sir. >> In August 2016, a Hamilton County grand jury indicted Britney Mays on one count of aggravated murder, two counts of murder, and one count of endangering children. On January 13th, 2020, she withdrew her not guilty plea and pleaded guilty to aggravated murder. The three remaining counts were dismissed under the plea agreement. Judge Robert Rolman imposed the agreed sentence life imprisonment with parole eligibility after 20 years. She appealed on February 3rd, 2021. Ohio's first district court of appeals affirmed the conviction. It returned the case to the trial court for one reason only, to correct a clerical error in the written sentencing entry. so that it read life imprisonment with parole eligibility after serving 20 years with credit for 1,251 days served. Britney Mays had been convicted once before in 2012. She pleaded guilty to attempted child endangering over head injuries Avery suffered as an infant. She served 6 months and was given her daughter back. No charge was ever brought against Charles Mays in connection with Avery's death and none is alleged here. Avery Lee Hobbes was four years old. 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