Okay. You good? You're you're all right now? >> Fine. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Need water or anything? >> No. >> No. Okay. >> All right. Um, so obviously I I know you've been here for a little bit trying waiting for us and being patient. We really do appreciate that you're going through a very tough time and we're sorry about everything that's happened. Um, obviously we just we just talked to um William and he's you know he's expressed that you guys have been going through a lot over the last uh the last few months. So, um, well, just so you know, my name is Lieutenant Matt Wiltshire, Detective Justin Paulelli. Um, we obviously work for Springfield Township Police Department here. Um, and we just want to talk to you about Did you call him JJ? Is that what you guys call him? Okay. We just want to talk to you about, you know, as much as we can to try and learn, you know, how things were for you guys and um, everything else. But we're probably going to ask you some questions that maybe somebody else has already asked you. U, maybe somebody didn't tell us. Um, if you have questions for us, please by all means let us know. if you need a break, if you need to do if you need to go to the bathroom again or you want something, please let us know. Okay. >> Um, so, um, real quick, um, >> what is just I'm asking you. It's going to be silly, but I already know your name, but what's your name? >> Tamara Moore. >> T A M E R A, right? >> T A M A R A. >> T A M A R. Okay. >> M O R E. Right. >> That's correct. Yes. >> Okay. Um, what's your birthday, Tamara? 81371. >> And what's a good phone number for you? >> And what's your address on Bell Green there? >> 11890. >> How long have you been living there? >> 29 years, I believe. >> Gotcha. Um, and who' you live there with? >> My mother. >> Okay. >> William JJ dog. that just passed. >> Mhm. >> And two cats. My mother recently passed. >> What was your mom's name? >> Levvenia L. Capital B. >> Mhm. >> E N I A Sims. >> Gotcha. Um and JJ was 16. Is that right? 16 years old. Okay. >> Be 17 in April. >> 17 in April. Okay. Yeah. And again, probably somebody asked you this, but how long JJ's adopted? Is that right? Do you adopt him? Okay. >> He was my foster son. He came to me at 11 months. So, he's been with me since 11 months. >> Gotcha. And you eventually adopted him. Is that right? >> At five. >> And you legally adopted him at five. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Oh, Jesus. And this is the only place that he's ever lived. So he's always lived here on Bell Green and everything else. Um Okay. >> Um do you work? >> No. Disability. [snorts] I have three autoimmune diseases >> and I have been the main caregiver for my mother. >> Mhm. >> And she just passed in in around Thanksgiving. Is that right? >> Yes. We buried her uh in December. Were you are you the main caregiver for JJ as well? >> That's correct. >> Um, does William work? >> No. >> Okay. >> He helped me care for mom. She was paralyzed. >> Gotcha. >> So, she didn't really She couldn't really help do anything with with JJ or anything like that either? No. And how long have you known William? >> Um, we went to prom together. He's older and then we lost contact. So, 30 years. >> Okay. So, you've known him for probably 30 years. >> Mhm. >> How long have you guys would you guys say you've been dating or engaged? >> Dating 13, 14. >> Okay. And I'm always saying engaged because he said you guys are engaged. Okay. >> The seven years. >> So seven years you've been engaged. You'll say. >> Mhm. >> How long has he lived with you on Belgra? >> Six years. When I started getting really sick. >> Okay. Okay. And then I kind of think I got an idea of the house because I haven't been there. So I'm I'm only And that's one of the things that when we ask you questions, I know it might seem a little strange, but um it seems like it's a viable house, right? There's >> downstairs at the front door, upstairs, um living room, kitchen, bedrooms, back there, downstairs, >> um like the basement area. Um >> yeah, JJ was um in the basement. We had an electrical problem. >> Okay. happened October the 28th. >> Mhm. >> That's the warmest area. And I was told by his doctor to to kind of keep him away from like a TV if he had a grandma seizure or anywhere he could hit his head. And so he had a favorite spot for him was his cot. >> Mhm. >> He wouldn't like anyone to touch his cot. >> Mhm. And so that's we could close the door and it would hold heat. >> Okay. >> And so I felt like that was the safest spot. If he fell, he wouldn't hit his head or anything. So that's where we put him. I knew he'd be safe. >> Okay. >> And he wouldn't have a fear of maybe even if he hit his head on the washing machine, it wouldn't be as bad as the TV or a dresser. >> Okay. >> Gotcha. Can it be warm for him? Because [laughter] the house was cold. >> Was cold? What was the electrical problem? Was it just some old wiring things like that? >> Yeah. Um, a surge happened in our neighborhood and they came out. I was waiting for people to working cooperatively >> to send someone to help us. We had so much going on. >> I understand you had a lot going on. What what was uh so JJ's autistic, is that right? Is there anything else that he had going on? >> Yes. He has grandma seizures. He's epileptic. He has a frontal lobe problem. It doesn't spark. So he sees his his um neurologist just retired, Dr. Shapiro, but he had a pending virtual appointment with a new neurologist. >> Mhm. at Children's Hospital for this Thursday because he just had a grandma seizure last night and the night before. I just administered Nasin and he seemed to be doing okay, but I just wanted to follow up. our car caught on fire and I didn't have transportation, but I wanted to make sure that he was seen um and to make sure that I he had grown and I just wanted to make sure that particular medication suited his growth cuz I didn't think it was enough to accommodate it. >> When you say medication to suit his growth, he was taking >> anti-seizure anti-seizure. Okay. >> Mhm. in um liquid liquid form. Um he takes he also sees a psychiatrist. His his pediatrician also left the practice. >> Mhm. >> So we were I was trying to wait to see to find someone. Um but he sees his ped I mean his uh psychiatrist is Dr. Raina Gilmore. He takes certuline [snorts] um and cloned. [snorts] >> Okay. >> Um >> when's the last time he saw doctors? Was that recent or >> he sees um Dr. Gilmore? We have a a virtual appointment every month. >> Okay. >> With her. [snorts] She checks in every month just to see how he's adjusting with his medication because with his form of autism, he's basically non-communicative. >> Okay. >> And he has a lot of self-injurous behaviors. Um when he's frustrated, he may bite or hit or um so this medication is to kind of keep him um calm. And so she's become like a um not only a a good psychiatrist but like a friend to him. Um >> where where is uh Dr. Gilmore at? Where is she? >> Children's uh central clinic on Vernon. >> Okay. [snorts] >> She even came to my mother's um service to comfort him. >> Okay. [snorts] >> Does he go there or is it all virtual? Um, he goes there every once in a while, but monthly she checks in virtually. >> Okay. >> Just to get an update on how he's doing. >> When do you think the last time he was actually in a doctor's office was? >> Maybe 6 months ago for that for her. Um, Dr. Shapiro um maybe 6 months. [snorts] He's due now, but Dr. Shapiro retired. >> Did anybody ever come to the house? Did you ever have like home home health care, anything like that? >> No. >> Does he have like a case manager or anything like that that helps you with this? >> Um, he has a manager with DDS. They don't call. It's very difficult to find someone to help, especially since >> CO. >> Um, that's it. >> So, you don't have somebody specific that you call at DDS. If you just said, "Hey, I need help." They would have to just give you whoever. Okay. >> Um and no one comes to visit him there or visit you guys there or anything like that. Okay. >> Um I I think probably the biggest thing that um we want to try to at least figure out is just how things were today. Um, and maybe for the last couple days if there were some things that maybe you noticed with JJ. Um, you said he has seizures. So, um, tell me how that kind of works out. >> When he has grandma seizures, he has a lot of falls and he's more aggressive. >> Mhm. >> It was trying to keep him calm and comfortable. So that meant um he may soil himself and so we don't have hot water so I didn't want him to have a cold shower. So just getting baby wipes so he wasn't the cleanest that he could be and just >> me changing him and giving him um he's not fully potty trained. >> Okay. >> So me changing his briefs and keeping him calm. Um, but he had backto back seizures, but he seemed like last night he was coming to himself. >> But I still had a concern as to why backto back grandma seizures. And I I determined that he's non-communicative, but I believe he was grieving. I believe he was missing my mom. >> Sure. when he has seizures and you said it was it's not normal for him to have backtoback ones like that. Is that something that you call doctors for or reach out and say, "Hey, he had two backto-back seizures. This isn't normal." >> Did you reach out to anybody for those? >> I um I made that appointment. They said, "Go ahead and make an appointment. We'll try to get you in virtually." >> Okay. So, you made an appointment >> yesterday? Yes. >> Okay. Would that have been with Dr. Gilmore? >> No, that's with the neurology department. It's a new doctor. I can't think of the name. At Children's um in Liberty, >> it's supposed to be for Thursday, I believe, at 11:30. >> Gotcha. And you made that with them yesterday because of the the grandma seized and the backto-back ones. Okay. Um, where where's his medicine at there? Did do you keep it all in the same spot or um >> pretty much I gave the other detective I showed him the prescriptions and and gave him the list of medications that he takes. >> Okay. Gotcha. I didn't know if there were somewhere if you kept them in the refrigerator, if you kept them anywhere. Okay, gotcha. Um, >> so when he had the seizures yesterday, did he did he fall? >> Yes. >> Okay. And when he How did he fall? >> He fell forward and um I just He was luckily he was downstairs. The day before that he fell, but he didn't hit his head. He like hit his shoulder. Um, >> did he hit his head >> yesterday? Yes. >> Okay. >> And he he got up >> when he fell forward and hit his head. >> Yeah. >> He got up and I gave him his seizure medication and he responded. >> And I've been told that if he responds and it doesn't look like he's laxed or anything, just keep him comfortable. >> And the times that I have called Children's, they just kind of call me back and say he's fine. give him his seizure medication and watch him keep him as comfortable as possible. >> Mhm. >> So that's, you know, and make an appointment. So that's what I did. >> When he fell on his head, do you think he hit his head hard? Do you think it was >> No, he didn't hit his head hard. >> Nothing that I mean, so no marks, it wasn't bleeding, nothing like that. Okay. >> No, he kind of like hurt his a little mark on his lip. >> Okay. So, I know you said that he wasn't potty trained. Um, >> how often do you have to change his diaper? Could Could he tell you when it's time to go to the bathroom? And >> I usually say it's time I say J, it's time to have a boo boo. >> Right. >> And he'll go go to the bathroom. >> So, he can go to the bathroom himself if you But you have he he won't do it on his own. You have to tell him. >> Okay. >> Um, how often or frequently would you have to change his his diaper if he's wearing a diaper? >> Maybe three times a day. He'll he might not have a bowel movement, but he'll urinate in in his uh breathe. >> Okay. >> Um so verbally he's there's no verbal communication. He can't really say anything. >> I can understand his needs. >> But for instance, if you met him, >> right, >> you wouldn't be able to understand it, >> right? So he has noises. Does he does he actually say does he form words or anything? >> Okay. So, his grunts can mean certain things and what his >> Okay. >> Um, nobody came there. So, no one came to the house to see him or anything like that. The only people that have been at the house have been you and William. >> Um, and you said there's a couple cats there still. Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Um, >> how long have you not had hot water? Um, we went after mom passed, my friends that are outside, they decided, the one friend decided to pay for us to stay in extended stay >> cuz it was too cold. So, we were there for about 6 weeks. >> We've only been back for about two. >> So, we were the house is a mess. We were trying to get rid of things >> to think about selling the house as is. >> So, we've been without hot water since October the 28th. Gotcha. >> So, we've been taking ice cold showers, quick ice cold showers, or warming up a pot and filling the tub. >> But you stayed in an extended stay for a while. >> Mhm. >> Which which extended say were you guys at? >> Blue Ash. >> Blue Ash. >> Mhm. >> How long were you there? But do you remember you know the dates or >> um from about the 19th till about a couple of weeks ago. It's a blur right now. >> So December >> Mhm. >> until just a couple weeks ago. >> Mhm. >> Sure. >> So in the in the house. So where do you sleep at? Where's Do you have a bedroom down there in in the basement or do you sleep upstairs? >> I sleep upstairs. You sleep upstairs? Okay. >> It's cold. >> Gotcha. Um, is that you and William share a room upstairs? >> Um, yes. >> Okay. And does And does So, you said that there's a cot that's by the washing machine. That's his special cot that he likes to have. His favorite cot. Um, there's no other bed that he sleeps in or anything. >> Normally in his room there is, but it's too cold. >> Which which room is his room? >> He has a third bedroom. >> A third bedroom. >> Is that upstairs or downstairs? Upstairs. >> Upstairs. Okay. Gotcha. Um, [snorts] >> and he doesn't What kind of activities is he I mean is there anything that he does? I mean does he >> does he like color draw? >> My aunt she sends tons of books on bird watching. [snorts] [clears throat] >> He has um eight binoculars. >> He watches we work on YouTube videos all day. He likes sounds. He likes basketball. He loves Batman. Mhm. >> He's just >> he just can't communicate, >> but he's just a normal kid. >> Okay. >> Are you concerned about obviously when he has seizures um he can fall or hurt himself or anything? Do you do anything to if you're if you're asleep or if you're not around, is there something that you do to prevent him from harming himself or or falling from the cot? >> Um yeah. So, I move everything away. That's why it's I'm constantly going up and down the steps even with my cane. That's why I don't want him in the room up there. It's cold and I just It's not safe. It's just not safe. We took the glass. He uses my mom's shower. >> Mhm. >> I took the glass out of the shower and even though I'm there when he takes a shower, he hates that. But I have to watch him because I'm afraid that if he has a seizure in the shower, he could fall and hurt himself. >> Sure. >> So, >> is he capable of doing those things on his own? Could he Could he get up and walk into the bathroom, >> take a shower, take a bath? Could he do those things on his own? >> He's Yes. >> Okay. >> He would need I was going to say, would he need you to say, "Let's go do this." And >> Yeah, he would need that. >> Could he wash himself if he needed if he was going to do that >> with assistance? You can say, "Okay, JJ, wipe your legs, wipe your stomach, wipe your face." >> Okay, gotcha. >> Mhm. >> Um, and if he if he was in his room, he could get up and come upstairs. He was allowed to come upstairs. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. Gotcha. Um, did you put anything like any soft? I don't know. Is the basement carpeted? Is that or Okay. So, it's [snorts] cement in the basement where he's at. Okay. >> Um, >> and again, I haven't I haven't been in the house. I will say that I've seen some pictures that we just one of the detectives that was over there that you probably saw and talked to. Um, you know, I've seen some kind of getting a little bit better idea of some of the things that were there. But, um, I guess I mean I think part of what I'm looking at and trying to see is that there's some things that I think we saw that are concerning for us. Um, and I don't know if this was something normal and I'm trying to figure out so that way when somebody asks us these questions beyond tonight and um, if you're not aware, I don't want to seem insensitive, but obviously they're going to do an autopsy on JJ, they're going to try to figure out >> what would have happened to him, if this was seizure related, if there was some other medical event that happened, >> um, or if there was something else. And, and when I say something else, that means could somebody have done something to him. And I that that sounds bad to you, >> but that's our job. That's our job is to try and ask questions that >> if one of the pathologists says, "Hey, >> what do you think about this?" And so some of the questions that we're asking are trying to figure out, did JJ hurt himself? Did he fall? Did he have marked? Could he have anything could have happened to him that they could say, "This is attributed to seizures or this is attributed to something else." Understood. Did he ever have broken bones or anything that you're aware of? >> Not that I'm aware of. >> So he's never he's never been treated for any broken bones or anything? >> He had um leg braces. >> You had leg braces >> for about four years. >> Okay. And that was just for helping him walk and is that pretty much it or did he have was it helping him with mobility or straightening his legs out? >> Straighten his legs out. >> Okay. Gotcha. Um, did is there anything if JJ was acting out, let's just say he was having a bad day. >> Um, is there anything that you would do that would he would understand would be like a form of discipline um whether and and you can tell me I mean if it was spankings, if it was timeouts, if it was he didn't get to do stuff so >> uh timeouts, >> you're not going to get your muffins. >> Okay. >> Um a very stern voice. Mhm. >> Yes. >> Okay. Was there any was there any physical discipline like spankings or anything? >> He's too big and I'm too tired. >> Sure. I understand. Um again, questions that I just we want to ask just to make sure. So, did William do any any discipline? >> Um he's a little tougher than I am. Yeah. >> And just the physical side or more of just like raising his voice? >> Raising his voice and maybe pushing him back if JJ would come after me. >> Oh, okay. So, it just kind of like separates you guys. Okay. When you when you said JJ would self harm sometimes, what what did you mean by that? Was it did he scratch himself? Did he cut himself or >> No cutting self-injurous behaviors? >> Okay. >> Um he's autistic. >> Sure. >> And if he gets frustrated, he hits himself in the head. >> Okay. >> He may scratch himself. He may bite himself. >> Okay. >> He may punch himself. And I would say, "No, don't hurt my JJ." >> Okay, gotcha. Did any of them were did any of them leave any scars or anything? >> Yeah. >> So, he he would >> he would bite himself and scratch himself pretty good. Okay. >> Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why he has psychiatric help. >> Sure. [snorts] >> Did any of the doctors see this? like the doctor. >> Mhm. >> Um so when they would do video conferences or anything or if they were if they actually saw him at the hospital or the doctor's office. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And um did Dr. Gilmore see that type of behavior from him? >> He did. >> Um which room was JJ's room upstairs? So, like if I'm I'm thinking you go upstairs, you go to the left. The bedrooms are over that way. >> The left. >> Okay. >> So, if you go down the hall, >> mine was in the back. His was on the left. >> Okay. So, was he the first one on the left? Mhm. Okay. Gotcha. Um, what were the on the cot there is like a cloth and like a strap that's on there on both sides of the bed. What are those? Um, those were there when he would try to hurt himself. >> Okay. >> But I didn't I didn't keep that on there. That was not working. When he would have a seizure. >> Mhm. >> He would get very aggressive and it just didn't work. >> Okay. So, there's like restraints. Is that what is that what they're meant to be? I don't want to put the wrong word out there, but >> it looked to me like what I could see from the pictures that there were some restraints. >> Um, >> and I didn't like it. >> Okay. >> That did not help. Was that suggested to you by somebody or >> Mhm. >> Who was Was it a doctor? >> No. [clears throat] >> No. >> Who was it suggested by? >> Just a friend. >> Okay. Did you ever try using them? >> No. >> No. >> Okay. >> So, did you ever use them on him? >> No. >> Okay. If William said that JJ stayed in that room all the time because if he was out of that room he would do stuff and get into everything and trash the house. Is that would that be true? >> No. >> Okay. So if William said that he had to stay in that room all the time because that was the best place for him to keep him from getting into anything, >> that wouldn't be true. >> When he was in the state of after he had a seizure, he would get very aggressive. It was the best and safest place for him then. >> But he wouldn't stay in there the whole time. >> No. >> He would be able to come upstairs and >> Yes. >> and sit sit wherever you guys were, hang out with you guys. Yeah. Okay. Um, what' you do today? How how did how did today go? What did you guys do? Did Did you wake up, JJ wake up? William wake up. Did you guys all wake up the same time? Different times? >> Different times. I had to take care of some things and call my aunt and then check on JJ, but I did not want him to move around as much because he was sick. >> Okay. >> So, he stay in the room most of the day today? Okay. >> So, he stayed there. He didn't he didn't come up or anything like that? No. Okay. >> Um, how often did you check on him today? I checked on him in the morning and then when I went back down I found him. >> Gotcha. >> Were you concerned that if there was anything in the basement that he could get into that could be harmful to him or that would be dangerous for him to be able to to be around? >> I didn't No, he wasn't going to do he just didn't. >> Okay. >> I didn't think about that. >> There wasn't anything that you felt was more of a danger for him to be around down there than there would be. You thought his bedroom just because it was colder? >> Yeah, >> that was that was easier. It was warmer. That's all I was thinking about is keeping warm. >> Was there Did you have the ability to plug in a heater or anything upstairs? >> It goes out. It's just cold. There's no electricity. If you look in the hallway, you cannot turn the hallway light on. The heat goes out upstairs for some reason. It stays on downstairs. >> I don't know if you had an extension cord that you can run up up the steps to the room or anything like that. >> It cuts off. That cuts right off >> cuz it looked like there was a heater that was in the basement um downstairs by the washing machine. >> That's the one that stays on. >> That stays on. >> There wasn't a way to run extension cord up to the up to the room or anything. >> No, >> I don't know. I'm just doing the best I can. I'm sorry. >> True. I understand. I I didn't know. And I'm just thinking because the laundry room, the things that were down there, the fact that the furnace is right there, um you know, it seemed like it wouldn't have been is that the his bedroom might have been a little bit better, but I understand that you wanted to be warm and keep him everything else. Um >> I don't know. I'm tired. I just didn't >> that was the best thing for me at the time. >> Okay. Did you ever think about reaching out to ask somebody for for help to say, "Hey, we're we're in a tough spot." I mean, calling people >> and um my friends have paid for for that. I'm trying to sell the house to get something that we can afford >> and as is. That was my plan. That's what I was working on today >> to get out of there to sell the house as is. >> Okay. >> Because people working cooperatively has not called me back. >> Okay. To understand I don't know. Do you have family or friends other than I know you said friends, but do you have family that are around that could have been helping or could have tried to help or I don't know what your relationship with them. I'm only asking because I don't know the answer to that. >> Um, with my mother just passing, my resources. >> Sure, >> I understand. >> Yeah. >> So, my best bet was to sell the house and us live comfortably with heat. So, that's what I was trying to do. You know, I do have family. I'm very blessed. I do have friends, but they also have family and they also have other things that they're doing as well. >> And when my mother got sick, my resources and everybody was trying to help with that. There's only so much you can do to ask people, >> right? >> And there's only only so many resources that they can do for you before they say, "Hey, >> um, >> you're on your own. We can only do so much. We just buried my mother. >> Sure. >> Believe me, I completely understand. And that's why I'm asking if there was if there was somebody that you reached out to or somebody that was willing to help that a little bit here, a little bit there. >> Um and I get it. You know, people get to that spot too where they have to go that route and say, >> "Enough's enough." And but um you know, my concern is is for JJ. I mean, he's >> he's in a position to where if he can't really communicate if something's really wrong, he can't really communicate if something's not right. >> Understand? Um, you know, that's where I'm looking at this from the standpoint of if something was going on with him today and if you checked on him once in the morning and then you checked on him again in the afternoon and then this happened. So that's kind of where I'm like, >> you know, >> what time do you think it was that you checked on him in the morning? >> 11. >> Around 11:00. So, >> and so what I did was I got on the phone and started calling people to say, "Hey, can you buy this house?" >> Mhm. >> We need to get rid of this house. We have no heat here. Let's get rid of this as soon as we possibly can. That was what I was trying to do. At the same time, sir, I have three autoimmune diseases. I'm very sick. >> Mhm. >> I just lost my mother. >> I just lost my dog. But I've always put JJ first. He's been my first and foremost priority. I'm tired. >> Right. >> I'm tired. I just buried my mother. The house has fallen apart. The car is caught on fire. I wanted to get rid of the house. My first thing is can you I need this. My son and I are cold. >> Mhm. >> I called people working cooperatively as much as I can. I've asked friends, do you know of any services, >> right? >> There's only so much that I can do. >> I've given everything to the people that I've loved. I was the primary caregiver with three autoimmune diseases taking care of my mother >> and taking care of a special needs son. >> I don't ask for a handout. >> I don't ask for a handout, but it's been overwhelming and I've given everything that I could. Sometimes I don't think I'm tired. That was the warmest place. I wasn't thinking. I wasn't thinking, oh, I can put an extension cord and then take it up here and do this and do that. I wasn't thinking. I just wasn't. But I did think like, okay, my next thing. I can't fix this house up, but I can sell it as is, get some money, get something more reasonable for us, and we can be warm. We can't go another winter. We can't go in the heat. We can get the heck up out of here and live our lives. So, that's when I start pulling out fillers to my family members. Hey, we need to get out of here. We need to live our lives. JJ needs the best quality of life. What can we do? That's what I was doing this morning when I woke up. >> I called my mother's retirement place to see if I could get something from her pension to get the heck up out of here. My first and foremost priority has always been my son. It's always been my mother. I have sacrificed so much that I've sacrificed myself >> so that we could have a better quality of life. This has just been a hard hard time. A horrible time. >> I agree. Like you got you've been going through a lot. >> I think that's what I'm just trying to figure out. Believe me, I understand that you're you want to be able to do all these things and it doesn't go as quickly as you'd like them to. And >> and I I believe me, I'm not trying to take away from the fact that you've adopted, you know, a special needs child, that you've been taking care of him. Um like you said, you've been going through a lot. You lost your mom, you lost a family pet. um you know, the house is is going in a different direction than you want it to go. And um again, I'm just trying to like I said, the questions that I'm asking are specifically going to probably be asked of us by take your pick of of the number of people that would ask these questions. So >> I understand. >> Um and that's what I mean. So last night JJ went to bed. He slept on the cop. Is that right? >> Yes, that's correct. >> What time do you think he went to bed? >> Um let's see. He came up he tried to come up and I said, "Honey, you need to lay down." Mhm. >> About 9:30. >> So, he probably went to sleep about 9:30 last night. >> Okay. >> Um, and then you didn't see him again until about 11:00. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Then when you saw him again at 11:00, the next day >> Mhm. >> he was awake. >> Mhm. >> Um, what happened then? Did you Did he eat? Did he come upstairs? Did he >> No, he did not come upstairs. He ate and drank a little. He did not really, excuse me, have he wanted something solid, but I was afraid that with him having a seizure. I didn't want him to have a seizure and have something that would obstruct his pathway. >> Sure. >> So, I just gave him soup and something to drink and kind of crushed his medication in it and I said, "I'll check on you. I just need you to rest." >> That was at 11:00. You gave it to him downstairs. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Did he Can he do that on his own? Can he eat the soup on his own? >> Okay. You didn't have to stay down there and feed him or anything. Okay. >> And he stayed down there that entire time. >> Just kind of curled up. >> Gotcha. What What did William do? What What does he do when he gets up? >> Um, he got some coffee. I wasn't really paying attention to him because I was [clears throat] trying to handle what I needed to do for the day. >> Sure. Okay. >> Um, so he got coffee and he just he didn't do it. >> He wouldn't. Yeah. I was on a mission to figure out um to call my brother and find [clears throat] out had he heard anybody about buying our house >> to call or pers to get medication refills. I was not paying attention to William and what he was doing. >> So after 11, when's the next time that you saw JJ? >> Um after I made all my calls and I talked to my aunt. I said, "I need to check on JJ. I wanted to rest. Wanted him to rest. Let me go down and see how he's doing." When I went down there, I knew that something was wrong. I just thought calling 911 because I think I went into shock. I think I went into shock. >> What time? So, you went down, thought something was wrong, and then called 911. >> Mhm. I waited a while, honestly, until I called my brother-in-law. He said, "Honey, you got to call 911." >> Mhm. What time do you think that you noticed that something was wrong with JJ? >> Closer to 4. >> Okay. 3ish, 4ish. >> So you never saw him between 11 and 4? >> I wanted him to rest and I knew that after a seizure he's very very lethargic. >> Okay. >> And it's very important that he rest. >> So after around 4, you waited a while. You say you waited a while to call. >> Mhm. >> You called your brother. >> My brother-in-law. >> Okay. Called your brother-in-law. Mhm. What's his name? >> Terry. >> What's his last name? >> Daniels. >> And then what' Terry tell you? >> He said, I think you're in shock, honey. >> Mhm. >> I think you need to call. And I was like, I don't want anybody taking him. >> Did you tell Terry that you thought something was wrong with JJ? >> Mhm. >> How long do you think you guys talked? >> I I don't know, honestly. Okay. >> And he's the one that told you that you need to call 911. >> And did you hang up and then call 911? >> I did. >> Okay. >> Was there ever a point in time like around one that you might have saw him or or went down there and saw JJ? >> No. >> Okay. >> I did ask William. I said, "Did you check on him?" And he said he he did and he was fine. >> William said that he checked on him. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> If William told us that he never checked on him, would that be wrong? >> Excuse me. >> If William said that he never checked on him today, that he never saw JJ today, would that be wrong? >> Um, he said he checked on him and he was fine. >> Okay. So, he just told you, you asked him and he said that he checked on him. Okay. You know what time that was? >> That was about 1. >> Okay. >> So that gave me time to continue to >> take care of my business. >> That was the one that William checked on him, you think? >> I thought is that is that typical that you wouldn't check on JJ until 11? >> No. >> Okay. On a typical day, he's with me. >> Okay. >> But >> I was just thinking from 9:30 p.m. to 11. >> No. Normally almost 14 hours. >> He gets up. He gets up like clockwork. >> Gotcha. >> But with him having a seizure, I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just going to let his body rest." >> Mhm. >> Let him just And then I'll take care of my business. I'm just going to I'm not going to get him all worked up. I'm just going to let him rest. No, he's up and I'm up. >> Okay. >> He's up at like 7:30. We're up at 7:30. Were you or William concerned at all come 9:00, 10:00 that you haven't seen or heard from JJ? >> Um, no. Cuz William goes down there. >> So, I I would think that if he had a concern, he would tell me. So, I'm on the phone waiting for the people to come to the line and I just would think that if he had a concern and then I went down there, I thought, well, I'll just let him rest and fix him something and go down there. Just let him get better and rest and I'll go down there and check on him. >> Who's Whose other room is that in the basement? >> That's Williams. I don't go down there. So if he said that's where you guys sleep, that's not true. >> No, I'm go down there. >> I noticed the um we noticed the lock on the door. >> Mhm. >> Um that was on the outside. Mhm. >> Was there was there any reason for that? >> I don't Sir, I don't go down there. I don't go in that room. >> Not Not the bedroom. We're not talking about the bedroom. >> JJ's room. >> We're talking about the room to the laundry room. There's a lock to keep it's on the outside. >> I I don't put I don't use that lock. >> It would keep anybody from inside to become out to go out. >> I don't do that. Um Okay. Yeah. Did you Did JJ ever use the bathroom today? Did he go into the bathroom? Did you have to change him or anything? >> I changed him. >> What time did you change him? >> That was this morning. >> So, you changed him at 11:00. >> Mhm. No, I didn't want him out of bed. >> And then you didn't change him again after that? Mm-m. >> Okay. Was he complaining of any pains like holding his stomach or >> his head or anything from Okay. >> Do you think William would have done something to hurt JJ? >> I would hope he wouldn't. >> Has he ever hurt JJ before? He's gotten frustrated with him and he doesn't have as much understanding as I do. >> Okay. It's tough. >> Really is. Does William help you with getting him places, taking him to doctors, moving him around, feeding him or anything? >> Just driving to appointments? Um, >> does he help give him meds or anything? >> No. >> Okay. You're not concerned that that JJ could have done something in the basement that he could have any of the things that are down there in that basement that he could have either >> he can't >> gotten into or >> can't open things. He doesn't have the capability to open tops. >> Okay. So he can't um >> So nothing down there that whether it's laundry detergent or any other chemicals or anything like that, he wouldn't have the ability to open. >> No. >> To ingest or anything? >> No. >> Okay. Do you think there's any injuries on JJ that would be considered new or fresh? >> Unless he got frustrated with himself, that would be the only thing. I guess this would be self-injurous >> other than so I'm I'm only saying that his um his uh incident yesterday where he fell forward >> and you said there might have been maybe a mark on his lip. >> Yes. >> Was there anything that you can say okay >> that isn't more than a couple days old that something that would be relatively new? So any any type of bruising should be relatively older. Nothing relatively new. >> No. Okay. No. Um, no other injuries on his arms, legs, chest, back, anything like that? >> No. >> Okay. Um, I can't uh think of anything else. Um I know the other detective um that you talked to there, I think he's back. He wanted to talk to us real quick. Um we're just going to step out for a quick minute, talk to him, and then there's anything else you think of that that could be important, by all means, tell us, let us know, and then we'll kind of do what we can to get you guys going so you can get, you know, out of here at some point. and um not be here obviously the rest of the night. I don't think anybody wants to be here the rest of the night, but um we'll come back in just a little bit. You need anything right now? Do you need anything? Okay, gotcha. We're still going to hang on to your phone real quick. On your phone, can you can you show me your where you called your brother? Is that all right? >> Mhm. >> Okay. If you would just put it down there so that way we can kind of see it so that way it >> was that is that your brother that's William's sister got it. Okay. >> Um Oh my god. >> So it's a mis call from him right? >> Yeah. So these are missed calls 802 here. If you scroll if you if you do this so like obviously these are so you can see the time periods where people were calling or do whatever. So >> um >> yeah there it is. >> So is this the time that you would have called him? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Gotcha. So you caught him about 606. >> Okay. It says incoming call 606 from him. Um maybe 54. I'll just say 541 looks like. Okay. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Gotcha. Do you ever write his phone number down? He he lives out of state, I'm guessing. >> Mhm. >> [snorts] >> Where does he live? >> He lives in California. >> Okay. So, you talked to him it looks like 5:41. >> Mhm. >> And then um he called again. >> Mhm. at 6:06 and you talked for 5 minutes >> and then you called um you called 911 at 6:15 >> according to this. >> Mhm. >> So that's if you thought something was wrong around 4, that's 2 hours and 15 minutes before you called 911. >> And in between at 4:00. >> If we'll say four o'clock, you thought something was on. You talked to Aunt Diana. >> Mhm. >> At 519. >> I called her while I was in the room with JJ. >> Okay. >> What did Aunt Diana have to say? >> She screamed. >> Well, she screamed at >> She was upset because he was because he was hurting or because he was >> Yes. So, Aunt Diana was at at 519 >> and you talked Well, I would say that was about 8 seconds, but let me see. Maybe you called her again. Give me an over there. >> Yeah, sure. I don't know. You all right? Good. Need anything? Need anything? We're going to talk to you real quick and then we'll be done. So, um, if you want, you need to go to the bathroom or anything, you can go out the lobby. We'll we'll take you out to that lobby to get here real quick and then, um, you can sit out there and we'll we'll get you back home here in just a little bit. When you're done, you can just have a seat back out here. Okay. All right. So, we just we wanted to talk to the detective that was um at your house that you talked to, Detective KO that was over there. Just kind of um see where things are. Um this is this is very tough for you. You're going through a lot. It's tough for us because we're asking questions. It doesn't seem like these feel like great questions to you because you're probably worried that we're asking you to get a certain direction, but we know that there's going to be things that are asked of us down the road. Um, and so our our plan um from here is there's some things that we want to do. All right? Um, and these are procedural things for us, >> and you're not going to like hearing them, but we're going to write a search warrant to collect some things from your house, okay? >> And that is just a cover basis from a from a legal standpoint. I know that if I asked you, you'd probably say, "Please, you could you could take this." And what we really what we're looking for is we want to be able to take the cot um and that was associated with where JJ was just in case the corner were to say, "Hey, I need to see this or do whatever." that might be something they'd look at. So, >> um, we also we need to we want to be able to take his meds um, from there so that way they can say, "Here's his meds." >> And I'll be honest with you, we just talked, they don't know where they are. So, maybe you know where they are, but um, if they were upstairs, downstairs, they saw meds, I think, for you and for for your mom and maybe even William, but they did not see his meds. Um, >> so if they're there, um, then we'll be able to do that and find it. So, >> that's the only thing that um we kind of really are kind of really want to go back and look for just to make sure or at least be able to take um >> and I will tell you that's going to take a little bit longer. So, to be able to go back home is one thing, but you're not going to really be able to go back in until we kind of go this route and finish this in. Um I know you've been patient. It's been it's been a long long long day and probably a long several months for for you with everything you have going on. Um but um I think there were a couple other things that I just wanted to to clear up. Um so how often do you have to change JJ's diaper? >> Um twi about twice a day. >> Twice a day. Okay. >> And when you change his diaper, is it So when I say diaper, I I don't mean like baby type diapers. I'm assuring it's it's probably like an adult type diaper like maybe the pens or something like that. Um, and do you have like boxes of those where new ones and everything? So, you change them with a new one every single time, right? Gotcha. All right. And then those old ones you just throw away every day. >> Gotcha. Clean them up and that's it. Okay. Um, >> I think too that um what else was there? Anything else? Um, >> do you know where the medications are? >> They're in the kitchen. It's cluttered in there. >> Sure. >> It's in a bag. It's in a gray bag. Probably on the side somewhere. >> A gray bag. >> Across from the um refrigerator. Gotcha. >> Across from the fridge. A gray bag. Okay. >> Like a Kroger. Like a grocery bag. >> The grocery bag. >> Mhm. >> And is there How often is is he supposed to get those meds? >> He gets them morning and night and he gets the he's out of it actually. His emergency seizure medication. >> So he's out of it. >> Um he's out of the So is that [snorts] what would what meds would be in the bag then? >> Seizure medication. Okay. >> Psychiatric meds. >> So antid-depressant um medication to keep him calm and medication for aggression. >> So he gets those those those meds are normal morning and night nighttime meds. Um, and then he has emergency seizure medication >> and um ADHD medication. >> Okay. >> How long has he been out of the uh seizure meds? >> Just emergency seizure medication last night. >> Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. But all the other prescriptions he's filled up and everything. >> Mhm. [snorts] >> So you use those last night was when emergency meds. Okay. >> Is it you still have the prescription somewhere there? Do you throw it away? Could it be Could it be in the garbage or somewhere in the house? >> It It might still be in that bag. I'm not sure. I don't know. >> I gave it to him knowing that he had an appointment on Thursday. >> Okay. >> So, a pending appointment. >> Okay. His his like diapers and clothes and belongings. Where is that in the house? >> He has so many clothes. >> Okay. diapers are in the living room, but he he has tons and tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of clothes. >> Okay, >> we just got back. So, there's a bag in the dining room. There's some new clothes that I just got them for Christmas that are in the hallway >> cuz I haven't sorted everything. I was kind of sorting to see >> Okay. >> what I was taking. >> Mhm. >> When we moved. >> Gotcha. Do you know all his doctor's names? >> Dr. Shapiro, but I don't know his new doctor offhand. It's a lady. I don't >> So Dr. Shapiro was his old doctor, >> the old neurologist and Dr. Raina Gilmore at Central Clinic >> and Dr. >> Rea Gilmore. >> Rea like >> Rea R E Y N A Gilmore. Gilmore. >> And the neurologist is where? >> At Cincinnati Children's Liberty Township. >> Liberty Township. >> And Gilmore was on downtown Maine. >> Bernett Special Clinic. Mhm. >> Any other doctors that he sees? No, >> just those two >> for now. >> Um, his pediatrician, who's his Who was his >> She quit. Um, he does not have one currently. >> So, we would just get his shot. >> Who was Who was that pediatrician before before >> Oh my god, I can't think of her name. Oh, can >> I don't know. >> Do you know the practice? >> Mercy pediatrician. >> Okay. >> She's Nigerian. >> And when was the last time that you think that he went there to see her? That was during co before co like two years ago. >> So he hasn't had a pediatrician >> since like 2021 2022. >> Like 2021. >> Okay. >> Or so. >> So we just get his vaccines at clinics. >> Okay. What clinics do you go to? Are these >> CVS, Walmart? >> Okay. So, [snorts] he's up to date with his co he's up to date with his vaccinations. Um, >> do you um where is where do you know where to get his prescriptions filled? Do you usually go to CVS? on John Grey Road, CVS and Fairfield on NIS. >> And the last time that he would have seen Dr. Shapiro or Dr. Gilmore in person was probably about six months ago. >> A little bit. >> Okay. So before your mom had passed. >> Okay. Um but once a month they would see him via >> not Dr. Shapiro. Dr. Shapiro sees him yearly. >> Okay. >> Just about um in office. >> Okay. >> He's very hard to get into. >> Sure. >> Dr. Gilmore sees calls monthly to do a followup and a medicine uh update. >> Okay. >> But she has seen him in person. >> Mhm. >> A month ago. >> Okay. >> Are there any I know we talked about broken bones and stuff like that that have any he had some leg braces that he used >> um when he was younger. Does he have any like scars that if they ask about scars that you can think of, does he have any like major scars anywhere? >> Um, he had a laceration um when he came to me that was on his hand and um he had um >> when he came to you when you say like when he's 11 months. Okay. He had a laceration on his head because uh he had ringorm in his bloodstream and a golf ball size uh knot from uh ringorm uh and they had to kind of drain it at children's. >> This is all when he was younger at like 11 months. Okay. And those have since they would have left scars. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And the ringorm scars would have been on his head. Is that what he said? And and the scar a laceration left a scar on his which hand was it? >> That was on his right hand. And the scar was on in the front. any scars up and down his arms, elbows, shoulder. >> He didn't start walking until he was three, so [clears throat] he crawled. >> Okay. >> And so it left him calloused on his elbows. >> Gotcha. From crawling. So he would crawl more on his elbows than he would on his hands. >> Okay. um scars or anything on his legs, knees, thighs, >> knees were scarred because of that was his um that's how he got around. He didn't walk. >> So, same maybe the same thing, some callous and some scars on his knees. So, >> and so because he didn't walk, he had leg braces. He was seen by um occupational therapy at Children's Hospital. And he had leg braces until he was about four. Okay. >> And wore special shoes. >> Do you have any operations? >> No. No. Seen by help me grow. >> Okay. So, no operations for like anything like appendix, nothing like that, tonsillectomy, nothing. Okay. >> Just been hospitalized for seizures at Children's Hospital Liberty Township. >> Gotcha. >> And um at that time, that was two years ago. Um he had hit his head on um the counter at home. >> Okay. >> From having a grandma seizure >> and chipped his tooth. He grind he um >> lost his tooth from that. >> Okay. >> And he um grinds his teeth >> and I was told uh don't worry about the chip tooth, >> right? >> Uh because he grinds his teeth and they tried to think about putting >> but he would grind the um >> mouth guard. [clears throat] The mouth guard. Thank you. So the doctors that he's seen especially and so um Dr. Gilmore that's is she's a psychiatrist or psychologist? >> She's a psychiatrist. >> Psychiatrist. Okay. And is she is she concerned about the self-injury to the point where she felt that it was there were things that need to be done or was his self-injury just more of a behavioral thing when he got upset that he wasn't causing that much injury? >> She has witnessed him. Um he has been forceful to my mother >> and bitten and headbutted my mother. >> Okay. >> So um there was some concerns >> and so she's had to adjust his medications. So he's on some pretty powerful medications >> um they've helped but that's why she needs to make sure that she calls in and adjusts his medications >> um to make sure that he doesn't harm himself or others. He also went to applied behavioral services for a long time. He's not with them >> currently. I was going to get him back, >> but because of my mother being sick and my health not being that great, I could not take a chance on him bringing anything back to us. >> Okay. >> Um, >> so where's that applied behavioral >> Westchester? >> Okay. Is that the Children's Hospital Westchester one or is that different? >> No, this is a school. >> Okay. It's called Applied Behavioral. >> ABS Westchester. >> ABS West. Okay. Um he had a lot of a uh self-injurous behaviors and they were working with him for several years with that. He was getting the therapy that he needed. He would get one-on-one um it's called um applied behavioral services. >> Mhm. Um but unfortunately >> we had to get homeschooled and curtail that for fear that he would bring something back but we were going to get that back. Um but anyway so no uh it was the self-interest behavior was very concerning. Um, >> did did he ever did he ever harm himself to the point where again he didn't break anything? So nothing he did he ever knock himself out from hurting himself? Did he ever >> he would hit himself in the head or hit himself? Sometimes it's called self- stemming with autistic kids. >> Mhm. >> So sometimes it would be to >> self-interest behavior if they're frustrated or trying to get something out. And sometimes if they felt like um they needed something to spark >> right >> what was delayed they may hit themselves in the head or ram themselves into a wall to get that spark going. >> Gotcha. >> And so >> but never to the point where it would cause him to bleed, cause him to knock himself out. It did >> not knock himself out but to get himself to he would bleed. >> Okay. >> He would scratch. >> He would bite. Gotcha. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Tell me a little bit about the adoption process for for everything when you you fostered him first, right? Did you foster him through Hamilton County? >> Okay. Um, and then when it was time to adopt, um, did you do the same stayed with through Hamilton County or was another was there adoption agency that you used or >> No. >> Okay. Did you just do I don't know. You you could probably tell me better than what I might know. Um, if you had like an adoption attorney or somebody in family law that helped out or >> No. >> Okay. >> How did you end up going about that? >> Um, no one wanted him, >> right? >> He had been with me. >> Mhm. >> You had to pay. It wasn't free. >> Sure. >> And he wasn't deemed autistic, but >> I was told he would be a lump on a log, >> right? >> Because he wasn't walking, he wasn't talking. >> Mhm. um that there was nothing that anyone could do with him. And I thought that was >> that wasn't true. >> And so I adopted him and I fought for him to walk and talk and do the best that he could and >> go against the odds and I paid and I was like I >> he needs a home or apartment. >> Did you go through a legal process? I assume that >> Yes. >> through the courts. >> Yes. >> Got documentation all that kind of stuff. Absolutely. That was all through Hamilton County, right? Absolutely. Okay. Um, and you said that he you adopted him when he was five. >> Okay, gotcha. >> Um, did you do was anything did you do anything through was it all through Hamilton? Was it jobs and family services that you dealt with the entire time? >> Okay, gotcha. >> Um, do you remember who you might have dealt with with JFS? >> I don't. >> Okay, that's a long time ago, but yeah. Um, and with DDS, there's no one specific that you that you talk to that you could say, "Hey, there a manager or anything like that?" Okay. Gotcha. >> Um, do you think he still has? >> You think if you called it, like you said, if you called there would somebody that would still say, "Yes, he's technically somebody that we would help out with," or would they not know? >> With autism, there's very little funding and they take them out the waiver. >> Okay. So once they did that and they gave up so much for autism. >> Um, >> sure, understandable. Um, so here's here's one of the things that I'm pro I'm going to tell you something that you don't want to hear right now. >> I need to keep your phone. I know that's not something that you want to hear. And the reason I need to keep your phone is because we're going to ask if we can download the calls, the call log from there from the events that happened. Okay? >> All right. And again, I'm only saying that for purposes of, like I told you when we first started this, I don't know what happened 11 years, 16 years. I don't know anything that's happened over that time. I just know that unfortunately today, you know, JJ passed. Um what the reasons for that, I don't know. Um until a doctor can tell us one way or the other. Um and with that being said, the only thing I can tell you is that we try to gear this towards not pointing a finger at you, not pointing a finger at William, but in the event that there is something that somebody says, "Hey, I need certain things or I wish that we would had certain things," I don't want to look back and say, "We didn't maintain some of these records." And I know that's frustrating for you. You probably need your phone. >> Um and it's it believe me, I completely understand. >> And I wish I could tell you that I could do this tonight, but I can't do that tonight. >> I have um an infusion coming. >> Mhm. >> I need my medication. I need some things that are on my phone to live. >> Okay. >> Everybody needs their phone to live. I mean, from the standpoint of there's everything. Everybody's lives are on these phones. I know that, but I need some things to do on my phone to order my medications. I take medications to live like literally. >> Can you Is that something that can be done if I can get that done by tomorrow? Is that is tomorrow an okay time frame? >> Yes. >> Okay. And I'm going to do my best to work that out so that we get it done sooner than later. Um, and I don't know. Do you have anywhere that you need to be tomorrow that's going to prevent me from if once we get this done then? Um, >> I can um ask if I can wait, but this is serious, right? >> I'm very sick. >> Sure. And I understand, like I said, I don't want to I don't want to take that away from you, but if let's just say I'm not going to say 24 hours, but if I can get this back to you tomorrow, you know, by early afternoon, would that be reasonable >> to be able to make sure and maintain what you need to do it for? >> Okay. Um, does William have a son? >> He does. >> Okay. >> But he doesn't have my >> Is there anything like all my my chart, my breathe, my >> Is there anything specific in here? something that you need I give you a piece of paper you need to write something down or I can write something down for you whether it's phone numbers or anything like that >> phone numbers but that doesn't have my charts in it though. >> Sure. And I and like I said if that's something that can wait till the afternoon tomorrow >> um at the latest if that's okay then then you'll be all right. You can work through that. >> Again that's the main thing that I'm trying to do. And again it's this is all to cover all the bases that need to be covered when it comes to this. Like I said, we're we're writing a search warrant for for your house to be able to take certain things. And I really truly feel like if we asked you, you'd say, "Yes, please go ahead. Here, I want you to have these things so that you give us consent or you give us permission to take those things." Um, that's what I'm saying. I'm also going to ask for the consent part of this as well. Um, to kind of go that route to see to make sure that we can we can download what we need to download and go from there. I'm not asking to get your medical stuff. I'm not asking for anything. I don't want to see anything other than say, "Hey, we have a call log." Um, you know, if there was any text messages that you might have had with any of your family prior to any of this to say, "What do I do?" Things like that, just to kind of show that we've, like I said, we've done an investigation into this to make sure that we're doing what's right for you. We're also doing what's right for JJ. Okay. Mhm. >> Um, >> and I know that probably doesn't make a lot of sense to you because maybe you think that we're we're looking at you as if you did something, but we're also trying to make sure that we protect him because he's not here to tell us what >> what happened to him. So, >> I understand that. >> Good. Um, is there a passcode for this? >> Mhm. >> Um, and the only I'm going to ask for it so that way because in order to do that, it's going to probably ask the passcode multiple times. So, um, Gotcha. Um, I know you've you've had a lot of people calling, texting, and wanting to know, you know, kind of what's going on. I will give you the best information I can give you right now. Um, the corner's office, a pathologist will conduct an autopsy tomorrow. Um, [snorts] from that point, there are a lot of things that happen. There's a lot of tests. There's a lot of other things that have to go on. the answers that you might want or that we might want or anybody would want to know what happened are not going to happen tomorrow. So, um once there's some things that happened, we will probably reach back out to you and say, "Hey, we need to talk again. You know, kind of give you an indication of what's going on, especially if the corner's office finds that it could have been anything. It could have been seizure related. It could have been, you know, a medical event that, you know, whatever the case might be. Um, again, if we all knew, we we'd be sitting here telling us, you know, it'd be different story if we could say he fell and hurt himself, but we can't say what happened to him at this point. So, >> um, >> how are you going to be able to reach out to me if you have my phone? >> Oh, we have William's number. >> I was going to say we got William's number and >> he's he Well, here's my thing. I just asked if you had anywhere you had to be and I didn't think you were going to be anywhere tomorrow. So, if you're going to be at home, I can always just bring right to you. >> Um, or have somebody. So, unless you're going to be somewhere. Um, >> no, I'm not. >> Okay. Well, I'm with you. But I'll give you my card. So, you can always call up here and say, "Hey, if something changes, then you can say, I'm I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be with friends or or I'm going to be somewhere else." So, >> you're going to allow me to um write some numbers down? >> Yes. If you if you'd like to do that, by all means, absolutely. >> All right. There you go. >> Mhm. >> If you could do me a favor when you're putting that, just keep it down there for me so that way it doesn't look like you're deleting or doing anything like that. I know. I know that sounds weird, but um I just if you're writing numbers down, great. But if you I will tell you this, >> just so you know, and most people don't understand this. Even when you delete stuff specifically on the phone, >> we still were still able to find it. So, >> I'm not going to do that. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to put my attorney and my family. I don't have time to play games like that. >> I'm You know what my job is? >> I deal with people that aren't as cooperative and aren't as nice as you. And the minute that I try to do something that's different, I don't want it to come back and say, "Hey, well, somebody did something that they shouldn't have or that I forgot to do something I should have." >> I understand. I know you're only trying to do your job. I'm tired. >> I know. I believe me, I know that you are. I think everybody's had a long day today and >> you have a lot of things still in front of you. >> Um, and you've had a lot of things that's happened in the last few months that are >> a very big a very big deal for you. I will tell you that the detective that was there did see your cat and it scared him because he did not know there was a cat there. So >> jumped out at him and so I don't know if it was the gray one that was on the front of there but he said he didn't stick around to see it. So >> that happens >> I have a cat. >> Oh my goodness. >> He wouldn't jump out on anybody. He's a scaredy-cat. >> Oh my goodness. >> He'll hide. >> He'll shed his hair on you more than he'll ever do anything [laughter] crazy to you. >> He's a big furry cat. So, >> my goodness, >> he's a baby. Likes to cuddle with me a lot. >> A >> really does. >> They're they're blessings, aren't they? >> I inherited it. I didn't want it. >> Oh, >> my daughter left it for me. >> Oh my goodness. It was nice of her, wasn't it? >> She couldn't take it to Hawaii with her. >> Oh, >> she couldn't take me to Hawaii with her either. So, >> oh my goodness. >> I think it was a loss all the way around. When you look through my phone, you're going to see that it's very boring. >> I believe me. What is he number? H >> [snorts] >> I'm getting my sister. [snorts] I'm going to go where the texting is. I'm not deleting anything. I'm looking for. [snorts] All right, those are the main people. You can if you need to read those text messages, by all means them. So, yeah, by all means, please. >> Am I allowed to respond or just read? >> No, you if you if you need to respond. Uh, I'm sure people are probably checking on you, want to know everything. And if the majority of them are ones that you wrote down, I'm sure you'll be able to call and give them a >> a rundown of everything. [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I will not answer that cuz I know I can't. >> You're probably calling cuz you're texting them back. That's probably why. All right. >> [snorts] >> So, real quick, so I'm going to read this consent form to you. This is what we're talking about um doing this. So, just as understand that we don't have a search warrant and cannot conduct this search without such a warrant unless you're willing to get permission to allow a search to be conducted. My um my brother-in-law is saying, "Wait till I have an attorney." >> Okay, that's fine. Well, then here's then what will happen >> and the only reason that I said this about doing the consent where the phone was is that I won't be able to get that search warrant signed until tomorrow. We cannot get the search warrant signed until tomorrow and then that time frame of getting your phone back to you in the afternoon will be delayed >> um as a result of that. I'm not trying to be difficult and I really I really am not and trust me, I understand why you're doing what you're doing. it it makes sense to me. Um, but again, at the same time, like I told you before, we're gonna we have to do these things in order to make sure that we're >> protecting the integrity of of everything that's involved in this. >> Um, >> and I get it. You have to protect yourself and I have no problems with with any of that. And um, and if you want to wait, then that's fine. We we'll we'll write the search warrant for it, but that won't happen until tomorrow. M >> and like I said, getting that to you tomorrow afternoon is going to be difficult. So, but I I have no problem with waiting until that happens. So, >> um as long as you understand that's why we're we're doing what we're doing if those numbers are going to help you suffice um to do what we got to do. >> I want to work with you. So, I'll keep my phone. I'll be >> I appreciate I appreciate that that you want to work with us because I'm sure at some point in time there might be something that comes up that I need to talk to you about again. That could be something very simple. That could be something very reasonable. Um, and for for us to be able to still communicate, you know, is is still a big deal. So, um, hopefully, you know, like I said, maybe tomorrow we might get some type of answer, but I I don't think that there will be the answers that anybody wants to be able to know with 100% certainty till later down the road. Okay. >> Um, but >> um I don't know if he had anything on him that that is there anything does he does he have any necklaces or anything like that? He doesn't have any He didn't have any jewelry or anything that he wore or anything, did he? No. So, >> I didn't keep any jewelry if he had a seizure. >> Yeah. Okay. And I didn't see if he had pants with pockets that he could had anything in. So, I don't know if there's any if he has any personal belongings, they'll um they'll hang on to it and they'll eventually release it and kind of go from there. So, >> Okay. >> Um any questions for us? >> No. >> Okay. >> Um I do need to see if my friend is coming to get us. >> So, I believe there's somebody out there. At least there was at that time. >> Okay. >> But just so you know, we're still in the process of getting the warrant for the house to be able to get the things that we've discussed. >> Um, and I know that you'll probably be there >> and for us to be able to do that, but we can't let you go back into the house until we have the warrant because we're still holding on to it and we're not letting anybody in or out until then. So, >> I need my medication, >> which that will happen tonight. Just it's going to be a little bit longer. Um, what time do you usually take your meds? You need to take it soon. Absolutely. >> Okay. Gotcha. And I'm sure that we can work with you on that. I don't think that's going to be a problem. I wouldn't I wouldn't leave that to to an issue. I wouldn't believe that to be an issue for you. Um if you want, we'll go out and I think Williams out there. Um, we will uh we can go hang out with him and then see if if you have somebody here with you. >> All right. My purse is still in the police car. >> Um, I believe we'll see if the officer you have her purse in your car. Okay. >> All right. Just have a seat right there for us. All right. You all right? >> Take your time. Yeah. Sit down. Comfortable. Um, >> so my name is Lieutenant Matt Wilshire, Detective Justin Paulelli. Obviously work for Springfield Township Police Department. Um, we just we wanted to talk to you about how everything happened today and who you are, who she is to you, who he is to you guys, and everything like that. I know this is tough. you guys are going through some some emotional um stress right now from all this and we want to be able to try and help you through this the best that we can um and try to understand what may have happened to him. Um and obviously you may not know all the answers. I know that we don't know all the answers, but it's important that we talk about this simply because there's an investigation into to make sure that nothing bad happened to him and that you guys didn't do anything to him and that this is something that could have been natural or some other some other issue that happened, some other medical issue that happened to him. Does that make sense? >> Okay. And you're okay with talking to us? Is that all right? >> Okay. Thank you. >> What was your name again, sir? William. >> And what was your last name? >> T U R N A G E. >> I'm sorry. Can you spell that again? >> T U R N A G E. >> Okay. >> What's your How old are you, Wayne? >> 58. >> 58. What's your birthday? 124. Did >> you just turn 58? >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. >> What's a good phone number for you? >> And what's your address on Bel Ring? >> 1890 Bel Lane suite and I appreciate you just being patient with us. You may have talked to some other officers and given them some information and and we might have some, you know, repetitive questions that you've already answered, but um it's just more for us to know so that when we talk, we have an understanding of kind of how things are going to. And if at any point in time you have a question you want to ask us something, please by all means ask us as well and and we'll do whatever we can to to help you out and and help you understand a few things. Um how long have you lived on Breen? um about the last uh seven, eight years, you know, just kind of but kind of serious and then uh you know, her mom got said, "Listen, let me say this. First of all, um she's going through a lot. We're going through a lot." Um my mom uh >> had a struggle about a couple years ago. So she's in a nursing home and it's rough if the story the stories that people talk about. So in other words, we had to bring her back home cuz she contracted a flesh eating disease and uh we've been caring for her and then uh you know um she passed in the house uh >> like Thanksgiving and then uh so um you know We just got back because uh she >> she she going to stay there >> uh and and and like her dog died. >> Mhm. >> So we're just like reeling. >> So when you say you live there off and on for seven or eight years? >> No. No. I was there. >> So you've been there permanently for seven seven or eight years. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. >> And and you say basement suite. Is that you stayed in the basement? >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. And then I'm assuming that mom would have stayed upstairs. >> Yeah, >> that's where she was at. Okay. >> Um and mom passed away in November, right? Right around Thanksgiving. Is that right? >> Um how long have you guys been engaged for? I mean, I say uh the day we met, you know, I actually met her years ago. We just kind of hooked back up. >> Oh, are you are you guys engaged or you guys just dating or >> No, we're Listen, hold up. What are we talking about? I just I just was talking about like I don't know what's going on. >> Sure. >> Like we want to talk about >> Okay, let me ask you this. The lady that's here with you. >> Yeah. >> Who is she to you? >> That's my fiance. >> Your fiance. What do you call her? What's her name? >> Sweetie. >> Sweetie. Okay. Gotcha. So, but you know her real name, right? >> Okay. What's her real name? >> Char. >> Okay. Um, and [snorts] how long have you guys been dating andor engaged? >> Probably about the last 10 years, man. >> Okay. Gotcha. And has she did she always live there as long as you've known her? >> Gotcha. Um, so I'm going to ask you about the house just a little bit. So, um, mom that passed away, she slept upstairs. She had a bedroom upstairs, right? You said basement suite. Do you I And I haven't been to the house, so I don't know. I'm I'm saying I know it's a B level. So you go in the front door, steps that go down, steps that go up. Is that right? And then I imagine there's some bedrooms either to the left or to the right when you get to the top of the steps. Um she stayed up there. The mom that passed stayed up there and you guys stay downstairs. Gotcha. Um is there How many bedrooms are in the house? Do you know? >> Three bedrooms. >> Three bedrooms. So, two upstairs and one downstairs or three upstairs? >> Three upstairs. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it's just Yeah, it's just a mother. It's just it's just rough, you know. >> I understand. >> I know you got a lot going on. Like I said, it's just it's for us to be able to make sure that we we kind of we do everything that we need to do to cover all the questions that somebody else might ask us. I understand. >> So would you consider the room that you have downstairs is there is there a bedroom downstairs? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And then um where is and what what's what is he to you? Is he just is he your son, stepson? Um adopted son? >> No, it's my son. >> Okay, gotcha. you know, >> and how and so if you guys have been together for 10 years and he's 16, so you know, he was a blessing, you know, when I came back into her life. >> Mhm. >> He was there when I met her again, she was he was [clears throat] literally >> So you weren't there from the time that she had him or adopted him. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Know what I'm saying? She was he was already in her care. >> Okay. >> I actually thought that was her son. I didn't know, you know, we had broken apart and >> Sure. So when you first started dating, she didn't have him. And then when you came back, she did. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right around your service. >> Gotcha. >> So just >> And you said you were in service, you were in the military. >> Which branch were you in? >> I don't What's Listen, I'm just saying I was in the military. I don't >> Yeah. >> No, no, no. I'm I'm >> Yeah. >> I was going to tell you thanks for your service. I got family that's in the military as well. >> My whole family is my grandfathers were in there. The red one. >> Sure. My uncle's in Vietnam. Just want to do my part. >> I'm with you. I appreciate that. Um, what do you call him? >> JJ. >> JJ. Gotcha. Do you know about his his medical needs and his medical issues? >> What are what are JJ's medical needs and issues that you that you can talk about? >> Yeah, his mother can go into detail. I know, you know, he's autistic. uh you know it's just uh it's a lot for her you know between her ailments and his ailments it's like she every day you know she just uh takes medication um I know uh has seizures and and I just at first I didn't know but you know she kind of you you know that he just just be sitting there sometimes and you don't know if he's that is what it is. But he has medications for that. So that's pretty much it. You know, when he goes into a routine, it's like got to stop, drop, and roll. Make sure he's all right. >> Gotcha. >> When when he has those seizures, what's kind of I guess the protocol for it? Is it you just hold him or do you just kind of let him go? >> No. He's like, you know, there are times when u when he's eating sometimes he'll just be kind of watch him he'll tip. >> Okay. >> So it's rare we can catch him at night but like pretty much got to watch him when he eats or she'll feed it to him. [snorts] is do you give the medicine to him or does she usually give him medicine or is just kind of like a team effort? >> Yeah, I don't I don't deal with no medication. >> Okay. >> She that's her thing. >> Do you do anything with him? Like do you help like do you ever take him to the doctors for or anything like that? to the doctors. We're uh >> so she does which everything that if he has something you do? >> No, we're all together. >> Gotcha. Okay. Does he go to school or anything like that? >> He's homeschooled. >> Homeschool. Okay. >> Um >> as you know as much as >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. So tell me a little bit about him and his his ability to function. Does he can he walk? I mean, he he has to, you know, when he's when he's up, >> it's like basically he's up, >> he gets fed. Um, uses the bathroom. >> Gotcha. >> But I mean, can he walk? Can he do those things? If he has to go to the bathroom, can he go to the bathroom on his own? >> Listen, man. No, he can walk. >> Sure. Okay. >> That's it. Like, we got to go with the pamper. We got We got to cut it out. He's got to wear diapers and stuff. >> Sit down. Otherwise, he'll be all over the wall. >> Like, so, you know, when he's done, you he's got to clean him. So, it's like, >> if you had to like pick I mean, I know he's 16 is his age. Would you say that he mentally where would you think he is? Do you think he's close to 16 or you think he's way way under that? >> No. >> Okay. And I don't know him. That's why I'm asking. So, I don't want to be I don't want you to think I'm being insincere. I just don't know. Yeah, I see. Uh maybe a two, maybe a three-year-old. >> Okay. So, gotcha. >> Basically, uh you know, before her mother passed, she was looking after, you know, that was their thing. And um but she she you know, handled him a lot. So, it's like >> Mhm. >> you know, when she was gone, it's like he he you know, he still you know, try to get in the room and climb in the bed and like it's just it's >> Can he talk? Could he verbalize things? >> No. >> Nothing at all? >> No words or anything? >> Like a hell? >> Okay. >> You know, >> did he do any like speech therapy, physical therapy, anything like that? >> Or was that just too much for him? >> That was [snorts] early on. And uh you know when she start you know Yaya start getting sick, it just >> Yeah. >> Gotcha. So, >> and you said so Yaya being the the mom that Tamara's mom that just passed, did she was she the one that mainly took care of him too or was she helping Tamara throughout that process? >> She she was, you know, like look, man, that that was her. >> Sure. >> She was grandma, so she just did grandma things and took care of the best she could. >> She was like she's she was always there. That's like always there. So, >> like, you know, it's rough, man. cuz uh like I just went through that like uh like my grandma just passed uh in the last 3 years and a year prior with pops and then right after that my uncle and then she had a stroke right after that. So we've been caring for her u about the last two and a half years before she passed. >> So it's it it's rough on her right now. >> Last couple years it sounds like it's been rough. It definitely has. Um, so where does he sleep? Does he have a bedroom upstairs? Does he have a bedroom down? Did he stay with you guys downstairs? >> He was uh in the uh room he was in because uh you know uh he he goes into uh these fits with her and he you know he's he he has to be in the cut that he was in. He could lay straight out. It was just enough over him or he could lay and stretch without him. hurting himself. >> So he sleeps on a cot and is it in the in the room in the basement? Is there like a bedroom that you guys are in? >> There's a room down in in basement. Yes. >> So he has like a separate room. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Um but is it like a bedroom? >> Yeah. >> Okay. [snorts] >> Well, it's it's the room that's down in there. It's basically uh it was enough room down there in the laundry room where we could set him down in there. It's heated and and there's no heat. Everything just happened like between her mom uh the house and the heat going out. So there's like only a few rooms in the house that could stay warm. So we want to make sure he's okay. >> Like I we were doing the best we can with everything and what you know in the past six months man it's been rough. >> Sure. >> And so [clears throat] we're trying to you know make it as best we can where he could be comfortable she could be comfortable >> and everything is all right. Right. Um, do you work? >> Okay. >> I'm just on a disability. >> Okay. >> Disabled. >> Who owned the house? Did Did the mom in the past, did she own the house? >> She does. She owned it now. Okay. So, Tamar owns it. Does Tamar work? >> She just [clears throat] Okay. Um, was there any [snorts] health care nurses, home healthcare people that came in to help out with him or anything like that like case workers or anybody? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, she would, you know, what what we would would come to the house and uh she'd do a lot of >> Zoom calls because of he you know because of her health. She can't like look man, let me tell you. I've been wearing this since 2019. I ain't had a slight had a cold. I just because of all of her immunity. So he had to be >> um homeschooled. He had to come out and she had to her and her mom had to homeschool him because of her health issues. >> So >> So for Tamara's health issues, >> right? Yeah. So he had to be, you know, schooled at home and she, you know, her mom was a big help in that. So when she got sick, it just it was like a blow. So, you know, >> Gotcha. Um, [snorts] so Zoom calls with just some health people that would come over, but no one really came to the house. >> Well, not that they couldn't come, but when she needed to go or she needed to make the appointments, >> then we [snorts] would go to whatever specialist or whatever doctor we needed to go. >> Okay. Do you know if he has a case worker or somebody that helps, you know, with helps with this process or anything like that? Case manager? >> She would know. Okay. >> Yeah, she does. All right. >> Okay. >> Um, >> let's go try to get my medic and everything going. >> Sure. >> So, you said that he sleeps on a cot. Um, and that's in a room. That's Is it You said it's a laundry room, though, too. >> Okay. Gotcha. Um, and that's where he he doesn't have another bed, but that's he sleeps on the cop because it's easier if he has seizures. >> Well, he they were out everybody was upstairs, but then when the electricity went out, there's only certain rooms like our room. There's a room downstairs. Everything in the basement alone is warm. And then uh so this happened right around. >> Did you say electricity is out now? Are you >> No, no, no, no, no. I said there's an issue where certain rooms so before we can get all this fixed all this happened and then her mom >> died and then >> sure understand >> all this [ __ ] start happening car blew up like I mean like >> god when we >> right everything happens at once it seems like so >> this is just devastating um So I know you said that he could walk but not really that great maybe but um so you had he wore diapers so you guys I was going to say always had to change him so there wasn't there wasn't a time that he made to the bathroom on his own. It was constantly just like he's been a baby the entire time. >> He's he's an adult child. >> Right. Gotcha. >> How often does the uh diaper usually get changed? Is it every time he goes to the restroom or is it is it like a disposable diaper? Can you clean it? >> You got kids? >> I do. >> There you go. >> Yeah. So, so every time that he goes to the res, >> you got a newborn baby. >> Okay. >> That's what you just That's what it's like. He's always going to the bathroom and you just got to change it as regularly as possible. >> There's no like, you know, we're done with that. I crack the door. >> Right. >> Right. >> Like, so it goes, you got to change it. That's that's it. Like literally there's no recognition. There's no, you know, he eats. Um >> he doesn't tell you. He doesn't say I have to go to the bathroom. Nothing. So you know to eat and then once he eats, you know, make sure >> what does he usually eat? Can he eat normal stuff or do you have to like puree food? >> Oh man. Just >> I don't know. You turn your back. He would be in the kitchen trying to eat up everything sweet. >> So there wasn't any he could eat whatever. He didn't have there wasn't a restriction on his diet or anything like that. Well, no. Well, now I ain't going to say all that. Now, she would just, you know, >> well, she might have a little bit, but >> yeah, >> but he could eat if he wanted if you whatever you guys made, he could have, right? So, >> if you had spaghetti, he could have spaghetti. If you made steak, he could have steak. So, yeah. Okay. [snorts] >> Like sweets. Who doesn't? >> But, you know, he he there was no limitations. So it's like he eat and then um it keep eating and keep eating until he you know so there is no he has to be watched. >> Gotcha. Did he um did he have anything that he did like did he play? Did he did he like draw or color or anything like that or >> listen >> like to watch TV like have certain? >> No, he never he couldn't he couldn't do all that because he's artistic. >> Okay. So um she'd have um listening programs that you know audio that he would listen to every sing the PP dance P. >> Sure. >> But that's it. >> That's it. That's it. There's no good pains and bucks. We were just at a funeral. Everything was fine. Um we're at home. Um, he had some seizures. Um, but for me it's I'm just the the handyman. >> We got a funeral today. >> No, we we just we just married her mother in in November. >> Okay. When you said we were just at a funeral when you had seizures, I thought you me I'm just saying like Yeah, this is what we're going through. We just like and >> and right after her mom died, our dog start got Listen, man. The dog was her mother's best friend was always in there. I had to, you know, she loved grandma and then she she got cancer. So, while we're where we're at, she's got cancer and [snorts] it's like we're taking care of the dog like we were just taking care of her mother. >> Basically, we took care of the dog to the dog just died. So, between November and just like maybe three weeks ago, we had a dog and we were taking care of like a mother and the dog died in the house. >> So, and it's it's just rough. And then, you know, this killing her is like a It's this is a lot, >> right? >> You know, this is a lot. And this >> Did JJ have a a seizure today that you saw? >> Um, I seen him when it wasn't, he didn't have a seizure today. I don't, you know, um, >> normally [snorts] she gets up in the morning and she, uh, you know, gets him together. I don't, you know, >> Right. So when she called me, she told me that he was unresponsive. And normally you like here lately, it's just he's just been a little lethargic. But like, you know, if he has episodes, she gives you medication and after a few days, it's okay. But that that that's always been the routine. It's like it's not nothing that just happened. That's [clears throat] >> So what's the routine like for for for you? You you get up in the morning. Do you guys all get up the same time or just different times? There's no there's no real routine. I just I mean I I get up and I have my coffee. I'm you know I'm out on the back porch or sitting somewhere just sipping and that's it. There is no routine. She gets up uh you know whatever she does she does and then that was pretty much it. So it's pretty much like she said dealing with that. No, I don't you know that's her thing in the morning. >> When you when you said she called you today that he was unresponsive. Do you remember what time that was? Man, I don't listen. I don't know what time it was. I'm not >> Did she call you or did she text you? >> No, I said she called me. >> Okay. >> She She called Listen, man. >> Are you able to look it up in your phone? >> No. >> Okay. >> She called me. >> Like you were in the house? >> Yeah. >> Oh, okay. I thought you meant like on your phone or something. No, I know this ain't no man. >> You were in the house and she just said >> I was outside and she came out, you know, cuz I was out fronting the yard and she called me and I was like, "What is it?" She was like, "Come here." I was like, "Hold on, give me a second." She said, "No, it's hurting." I said, "What is it?" What was it? She said, "He was unresponsive." I said, "What are you talking about?" Cuz like sometimes he'll just listen, man. [snorts] I don't know how to put it, but like you know, he had times where he just he won't get up. Mikey had days with like, you know, I don't [clears throat] I don't know how to explain it. Like if you've ever dealt with anyone autistic or known somebody, it just sometimes he just you want to get up. So he just lay there. So she >> when he get up, she can't keep arguing with him. He's getting too big, man. So she just shut the door. >> All right. Well, you want to argue, you don't want to eat. Okay. Bye. >> And he would just stay in that room. >> Yeah. He just sit there until he, you know, act right. You can't listen, man. Kids are kids. >> Sure. >> But like um so if he didn't want to, you know, come out then can't couldn't make him. So I he just sit there and when he's hungry, open the door. I don't know. >> But he couldn't get out of the bed himself. He would need help from you or from her. >> No, he couldn't get out that room. >> Okay. >> Because if he comes out that room, you know, like he he listen, he would get in and stuff. There there was no >> there was no um >> like if you got a dog and a dog going somewhere ain't supposed to be or doing something you know you can tell because >> it's quiet >> or they no if you go around they'll they you know he doesn't have that. >> It's like if he's up and he's down >> he'll start over. >> Gotcha. >> He would just and the kitchen would be a mess. So yeah, there was no he he had to. >> Was there anything in the basement? And I'm only asking this because is there anything in the [snorts] laundry room they could have got a hold of that could have done anything that like laundry detergent, any other type of chemicals or anything like that? >> No. No. >> Okay. >> No. No. No. It wasn't. He wasn't down there drinking no chemicals. He wasn't down there. None of that. Food. That was it. He was fully motivated. >> [snorts] >> Did did you hear or I mean obviously this morning he didn't want to come out of the room this morning. Did Tamara say anything before she told you something was wrong like, "Hey, you know, he's he's doing something, not doing something, or it just seemed like a kind of a normal day." >> Well, she just, you know, went down and JJ come and eat. That's that's that's the routine. He gets up, he eats, you know, >> and she said, "Come eat, he come up and >> he open the door." >> Mhm. >> Read the rails, come on up. You know, you change your diaper out, you eat once you leave. So, he was bad, bro. I was retained. >> Did he stay in that room all the time or did he stay upstairs? Was there times where he stayed upstairs? >> That was when at night, that's where he laid cuz anywhere else he's coming out, he's trying to, >> right? >> But no, >> I mean like since it was this afternoon, I didn't know if he had time that he would stay in the living room. >> He had he didn't No, he she found him that way. It was No, he was That's how she found it. Okay. >> That was it. >> So, did you see him out of that room today? Anywhere else? >> I listen man. I got up. I had some coffee. Man behind. This ain't this ain't even a story. It's like, you know, I was outside. It wasn't Did I see him coming out? It wasn't like, you know, it's like early in the morning which she you know. So, as far as I know, he was laying down because he had medication >> makes you sleepy. >> Sure. >> So, that was all it was. >> That That was it. Um, >> so when you got up, got your coffee, went outside, didn't really see anything else. You weren't in there for when he ate, you weren't in there for any other time. >> I'm normally not in there for when she feeds him in the morning. >> Okay. >> She normally, you know, takes care of him. >> Okay. He's good to go, you know, because early in the morning he's got to have medication and then she's got to have medication, >> right? >> I'm not in when I, you know, on my coffee. I'm like, she's still there watching her TV doing >> I mean, we're not there. So, you tell me what your day is. >> Kind of set up a timeline and kind of have an idea for us to >> Yeah, that that was basically it. I mean, she got up, man. But we're going through some stuff. She's, you know, probably talking to family because it's it it's been rough on her. Um her only, you know, parent here, um is gone and and they've been together all their lives. >> All their lives. Even when I met her, you know, back when I was uh getting out of service, her mom's always been there. So, it's like, >> sure. >> It's not like, you know, you get up in here and then you're somewhere. So, this is devastating to her, >> right? >> I'm like, man, we took care of it. Like with listen man, I know you got a mother. It ain't always pleasing friend, but >> like you know she's getting she she was sick, man. I knew, but you know, help her. So, and then this happened. So, I don't know what to tell you guys. It's like, look, she she went down there to check on him. Um he was unresponsive. That's it. That's all I got. >> Did you do anything to like help? Was there any Did you try and do CPR or anything like that? >> Oh, she came in there and she was telling me she was like cuz like look I I can't say how she was when she was in there. >> I know she opened that door and was hollering. >> I went down there and I looked at him. I said, "What are you talking about? He's probably just not Come on, man. I'm looking like, you know, he's just looking like he knocked out cuz he's looking like he's normally looking and it's not like he's like, >> you know, he looks like to me [clears throat] like he when he's sleeping and >> I went to look and pull out and I went to touch him and it was like, you know, there was nothing. And then, you know, I had to tell her to just go upstairs. >> How long did How long was that until the ambulance showed up? I >> I don't you know, look, man. I told her, I said, "Listen, I don't know the time frame, but I told her to listen, just call your dad and call your That's all she had and let them know." And um >> So, she called her dad and aunt first before >> No, I don't know. I I said I said I told her I said, "You going to need to uh let your dad not know." So, I don't know the time frame on who she called first or when she called. I'm saying she has no family here. >> That's it. Her her eldest aunt just died uh like right before her mom and her old eldest uncle is in Indiana and he's so she you know she doesn't have any so she's by herself. So that that was just me talking to her. So, you know, um, look, man, I'm telling you, I think she didn't even really want to cop cuz I don't think she really believed it. Like, cuz like he's he's not, you know, we've been through this. Like, come on, JJ. Come on, JJ. Where, you know, he just don't want to move, man. He just >> where But like to >> Do you think anything could have happened to him over the last couple days? Do you think maybe he could have fallen, hurt himself, hit his head? He was anything like that? No, he was just uh like I say me, I'd say he was missing his grandma, but like he's been having seizures. That's that's the only thing I can say. >> Okay. >> Like from, you know, >> he's he was having them before, but like since she's been gone, he's just, you know, and it's it's something where he just locks up and then that's it. >> Like there's nothing we can do. There's nothing she can do. We don't know when they're coming. There's no preventative maintenance for seizures. So that's why he can't, you know, he used to be able to sit up, but like he can't he can't because something comes on that >> and then he's that's it. He seizes up. So that's why, you know, he just it's all audio >> and he's up to date on all his medication that you know of like Okay. >> Yeah. Man, >> I know if there's any issues with the doctors changing just she just listen with all of this [ __ ] happening. he had just uh um set up appointments with uh some of his doctors to have Zoom calls >> I believe like uh later on this week. So there's, you know, >> man, listen, I I know yall do what y got to do, man. But this is like, >> this is some [ __ ] up [ __ ] >> It is. And here's the thing. There's going to be somebody that ask us questions and and at some point in time, they're going to want to know what life was like for you guys with him and and medical history. And there's probably going to be a doctor that's going to be able to say, "Here's the way things were for JJ." Um, and they might be able to do some other things, but obviously we just want to be able to say, "We had an opportunity to talk to you." Um, and again for us to be able to rule out anything that somebody come and say, "Hey, we think that this could have happened." And again, I'm not a doctor. He's not a doctor, so we don't know what was going on with him and what you guys have gone through. Um, and for you to be able to talk to us and kind of just give us an idea of how that was, that makes a big difference, I think, when it comes to what a coroner might say when they do autopsies or if anybody else were to have questions. Um, and and that's the thing is I mean if I guess the big thing is you don't think anybody would done anything to hurt him, do you? You don't think that she would have intentionally hurt him as a result of being frustrated? >> Listen, man. Let me tell you something, man. Nobody wanted him. >> You understand? He he was, you know, fine with lead paint in his system eating. That's cuz that's all he was eating, man. She took that boy off the street. She loved him. You know, it wasn't just him. It was him and a couple others, but he was the one that she kept. So, uh, >> what was what's her mom's name that just passed away? >> Levvenia. >> Levvenia. Okay. Sims. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was his that was his Yeah. >> Gotcha. Okay. >> So, um I mean there were times he pissed me off, man. was like he he's he's gone now. It's like just like you know it's just gone. >> How'd you guys discipline him if he was doing something that he shouldn't have been doing? >> He wasn't getting no cookies. >> That was it. So you I was going to say I mean [snorts] >> yeah he liked him so you know to him it's every everybody's different man. Every artistic person is different. the guy used to work for, he said uh he used to his son was autistic, but he would shake the uh hangers with the paper on it and always would bother. But yeah, he >> how often I mean do you think that JJ understood if he was doing something you shouldn't you said don't he would understand it and if he didn't get cookies >> that was he understood that a little >> all kids go through that sometimes they do sometimes they don't you know sometimes they don't kid ain't about the cookies whatever Right. >> But you know, he loved his grandma. I loved his mom. He loved his cats and dogs and it's terrible. >> Sure. Understandable. >> We're We're going to talk to Tamara. Um >> I just need to use the restroom. >> Sure. Yeah. We'll get we'll take you back out here. >> Before all this, I've been drinking coffee all day. >> Right. Sure. We bring you back out here out to uh the front and we'll uh we'll let you use the bathroom that's right out here. Well, if you want to come out this way, we'll take you right to it. >> [snorts] >> Hallelujah. >> [snorts] >> Well, it could make it easier for if I put some put them in the front for I'm sorry. >> Would it make it easier if I put the handcuffs in the front for you? >> It would. I have bad arthritis. >> Are you able to stand up for me? >> If not, I can just if you swing around. >> Yeah. >> Okay. We'll do go ahead and do the left one here. >> All right. This is torture. >> Hang on. Hang on. Bear with me. I don't want you to hurt your arm. >> Yes, I got it. >> All right. >> All right. >> Mhm. >> Are you able to release that? Come on. You're stuck. You're stuck. >> Okay. >> All right. >> All right. Yeah, that's a little bit better. >> Hang on. Hang on. Okay. >> Just kind of put them like that. >> Okay. >> We'll do that. >> That way. That That's a little more easy for you. Okay. How's that? >> That's a little better. I appreciate you. >> Let me uh double lock these so they don't come undone. >> All right. Thank you. >> You're welcome, man. In the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus. Lord, I need you, Father. I need you, Lord. Just cover me, heavenly father. Give me a hedge of protection, Lord. I just need you, Lord. I need you, Lord. I need you to cover me, Lord. I need to feel your grace and your mercy. Heavenly Father, I have done everything in my power to be a good person and I end up like this. Lord, I just need your hedge of protection. I need your presence, Lord. I need you to send your angels to care me. I need your saints that have gone before to protect me. Heavenly Father, I just need to feel your love. Lord, just help me through this process. Heavenly Father, I've been very sick, but I've been diligent, heavenly father, and always praising your name and always giving you the glory, Lord, and trying to treat people right. [snorts] Heavenly Father, I'm tired, Lord. I lost my mother, my son, and my dog. I'm just trying to make it, Lord. I just need you, heavenly father. Just give me grace and mercy, heavenly father. Whatever is true, let it be un unfilled and let the everything come to light. Lord, what's true and what's right, heavenly father, I need your grace and your mercy. Heavenly Father, I need for you to keep me okay, keep me strong. Reach out to my loved ones, Lord. Help them, Heavenly Father. My cats are crying. Help us, Lord. Help us, heavenly father. I love you, Lord. I give you the grace and the mercy. Give you the praise even through this trying times. I know your love endure forever and ever and ever. No weapon formed against he shall prosper. I just still praise you, Lord. I still thank you, Lord. >> I hope these officers are touched so they can really unveil the truth, Lord. the truth. >> Please Lord, just help me. Heavenly Father, be 52 on 53 to be charged with your son to counsel with murder and child endangered. And all you try to do, heavenly father, is try to make everything work. I just need you, Lord. I just thank you, Lord, for everything that you've done and everything that you're going to do. Please calm my spirit. I'm asking mom, grandma, grandpa, grandma, grandma, baskin, grandpa, Davids, my baby, the saints to encamp me, heavenly father, please in Jesus name we pray. Amen. Are you ready? I just want to point dementia will be impressive for responders. >> [clears throat] >> Thanks, buddy. >> They're in the front. >> That's fine. >> We can u actually just take them off. Okay, take them off. That's fine. And >> pull your hands up towards me, please. Tim, can I ask you to scoot over one for me? >> Mhm. >> And then we're going to use this. >> I can I can just pull this in. Okay. No. All right. Um, before we get started, I am going to read you your rights. Okay. >> Um, 11:30. Today is the 12th. Okay. So, what I'm going to do, let me give you this copy. Um, I am going to read your right. These are your rights. Okay? Then I'll give you an opportunity to read this if you'd like. And I'm going ask you to sign it just stating that you understand your rights. That's the only thing that this signature is stating. Okay. >> Mhm. >> All right. So, um, it says, "Warning. Before you're asked any questions, you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say could be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before we ask you any questions and to have him or her present with you during questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you before questioning if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time. You also have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to a lawyer. Do you understand your rights? >> Yes. I was a criminal justice major. I do understand. >> Okay. So, I do want to verify at the house. You said you wanted to talk to a lawyer, but then you stated that you changed your mind and you want to talk to us now without a lawyer. >> Is that still the case? >> Yes. If at any time I still need to, I will let you know. >> Absolutely. You can stop and you can stop talking to us anytime you want to. >> All right. >> Okay. >> All right. So, if you want to just sign right there for me, please. And then I'm just going to turn this not off, but is there a way to turn it down so it doesn't ding all the time? >> I don't know. It's I think Yeah, I It's tricky. I don't >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Okay. Um, if you can just put it's 11:33 and and the date is 412. We'll just get this out of the way. Okay. Um, so before we get into JJ and everybody else, I really want to focus on William a little bit. >> Um, do you know what his phone number is? Do you still have his phone number? Um, I believe it's the same phone number. >> Same. Do you know what that is? >> Do you remember? >> It's in my phone, I believe. I don't know. >> Can we look? >> Sure. >> Do you mind? >> Do you mind opening it up for me? >> Mhm. >> And then if you had to guess, >> where would be right now? >> Sir, I do not know. >> Okay. Even after seven years. And I mean, you guys have known each other for 30 years. >> We have. >> I know. I know. >> I I do not know. >> Okay. Where's his family live at? >> All over um >> all over Cincinnati. Okay. >> This is I have some of his family's number, but I don't even have his number in here. Whatever number you all have. >> Can I look? Do you mind if I look? >> Would it just be under William? >> No, I don't. >> What would it be under? >> That his number isn't even in that phone. >> I understand it. But if it was >> under Williams. So whatever his last number, the 899, I don't know the rest of the digits. That would be his number. >> Is Williams really new? >> It's not. You can check it. There's no number there. >> There's no number. >> When's the last time you talked to him? >> Almost a month ago. >> So you talked to me for almost a month. >> Correct. >> No text messages or anything like that? Really? So, you were serious about getting rid of him, huh? >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. All right. So, you understand that you're being charged with murder. Okay. Um, you're being charged with murder and child endangerment is what it is. And the reason for that is after our investigation, after the autopsy and everything else, um the the coroner felt like there was no um natural cause for his death. Um so I want to give you an opportunity >> um to be honest. >> Sure. >> Um like I I can tell you I know exactly what happened. Okay. I know why he died, how he died, and everything else. I want you I want to give you the opportunity. I know you cared for him. You took care of him his whole life. That was your son. Um, just tell us what happened and what led up to him dying and how he died. >> Um, for the most part, I've been very sick. been taking care of him and my mother the very best that I could. That particular morning, um, I had to find out some information concerning my mom's, whatever she had, and I called my aunt because I was grieving and vomiting violently. I just asked William, can you check on JJ for me? I'm really sick, which I get. I have three autoimmune diseases. He said, okay. And what I do when I'm really really sick like that, I have breakfast bars and applesauce. But he had a seizure the night before. So I was afraid for him to come up the steps because when he has seizures, he falls and he can hurt himself. He'll be walking. If we're in the store, he'll just fall out. So I didn't want that. The downstairs is the only place that was heated the best, I thought. But as I researched and went down to clean, William had two heaters in the family room which was pulling the heat. Our heat isn't really working adequately. I >> You say your heat, your furnace. Is that what you >> No. No. Our [clears throat] electricity. >> Your electricity. Okay. >> All right. The furnace is fine. >> It's the electricity. >> Okay. >> So, I've been calling to get around to see what we could do and I put in I'm sorry I'm shaking and freezing in here. um working with people working cooperatively to see if I could be on a list for them to help me get that done. So, he went down and he said he's fine and I' spoken with my aunt concerning my mom to ask her, "Do you know if she has any, you know, anything? Can you tell me anything about any policies or anything? We need to get this done >> for financial help." what you're looking for. Okay. Okay. >> And um and crying was pretty still grieving the loss of my mother. We had just later destroys. Um so anyway, later on she said, "Well, can you get down the steps?" I said, "Yeah, I need to check on him." him. I made him something to eat and I called for him. But I was like, I remember I don't want him coming up the steps cuz if he has a seizure, which he has done, he can fall down the steps. So I said, "William, can you check on JJ for me?" He was in the van, which he loved to do, just sit in the van. And so I said, "And Diana," she said, "Well, let me talk to him." I said, "Okay." When I went downstairs, which was later on when I felt strong enough for myself because I was very weak as well, I walked down the steps and I I don't know. I freaked out. I thought that I could wake him up, but his lips were blue and he was cold. That's what I remembered. And I just freaked out. I just wanted my baby to wake up. I just wanted him to wake up. And so, I don't know what she said. I don't know what I said, but I said, "I'm out to get William to help me wake him up." I went to the car. William, William, William, William, something's wrong with JJ. He's still sleeping. I didn't know that he was gone. I didn't know that he was gone. >> Mhm. >> His lips are blue. I performed CPR on my mom, but I was like, I need some help. And he just sat in the van. He just sat in the van and I'm screaming outside. I need help. I need help with him. He comes in casually and he goes downstairs and I didn't know what to do. I was like, I have to call my mom. I have to call I thought I had to call my mom and my mom is gone. I had to call my family because I I wanted him to wake up. I didn't know my mind wasn't right. And I called my cousin. And he said, "Call 911." And I said, "I forgot to do that. I don't know what's going on." William was like, "I don't know what happened." And I said, "Is he still alive? Is he still alive?" [clears throat and cough] And he said, "I don't know. I don't know, Tammy." They wouldn't let me go back downstairs to hold him. >> William wouldn't. Okay. >> No. No. And I came back upstairs and I called 911. Still hoping that maybe he could still be alive. Still hoping that maybe he could still be alive. I would never do anything to my son. >> Okay. >> Well, let me let me ask you this. Let's back up just a little bit. >> Sure. >> Um because what we try to do obviously um whenever there's anything like this happens, we try to create a timeline. Mhm. >> Um, and some of the things that we know from the coroner and some of the things that you've said sort of contradict each other. >> Um, so I'm trying to create a timeline >> and looking at your phone that morning you were making a lot of call. Well, I know you called Opers and >> um you were calling some investors that >> not investors. >> Well, somebody was trying to buy the house. Is that correct? >> No. because you had quite a bit of like there was calls from investors that were returning your phone calls >> maybe. So, I don't know. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um and then at 12:04 is when you began calling family. >> Mhm. >> So, is that when you found Jeremiah or JJ nonresponsive? >> I don't even remember. I think it was later than that. I think that Blam had said that he was okay and he had given him something to eat already. >> Okay. >> And I said, "Okay, well, let me call and ask Aunt Diana to make some more calls to try to see if we can get something to get this electricity back on." >> That was my main goal. >> So, let me ask you, in your previous statements, you stated that you went down around 11:00 and you checked on him, that uh he was okay. You gave him some soup, you gave him something to drink. Yes. >> Um, and you gave him his meds and it I believe you said that you changed his pull-up. >> No, I did not say that. >> No, I did not change his breathe. >> That would have been [clears throat] that day. Okay. >> Okay. >> I was going to do that later. >> Okay. So, you said that was around 11:00. >> And >> um, so again, you started talking you you called Aunt Diana at 12:04 >> p.m. And you talked to her with a few minute break. I mean, you hung up a couple times just for a few minutes. >> Um, >> and then you would call her right back, >> but you talked to her for five almost 5 and 1/2 hours >> um that afternoon. >> Mhm. >> Um, I know in the again going back to your initial statements, you said you went back down around 4ish 4ish somewhere around there. >> Yeah. And that's when you found >> um JJ unresponsive. >> Correct. >> Now at 4:00, your phone shows that you were on the phone with with your aunt Diane. >> Um >> so again, I'm just trying to create at this point it's not that big of a deal. And I just that's where I just need you to be honest. Yes. I mean, you said you found him at 4. You didn't call until 6 initially. That was your initial statement. It's my opinion through my investigation that you probably found him around noon >> and that's when the phone calls because you you made 15 phone calls between noon and calling 911. >> No, I did not find him that late. I thought that William had checked on him. I was calling family members to kind of find out how I could either get this house sold or get the electrical problem. But I thought that he was okay. I trusted William and thought that he was okay. >> Okay. Now, do you know that we went to Atlanta and spoke spoke to your aunt Diana? >> No, >> she didn't tell you that. >> No. >> Okay. We went to Atlanta. We spoke to Aunt Diana because she wouldn't return our phone calls. >> She She's telling us something different. Okay. She stated to us that yes, you >> called and told informed her that >> Jeremiah had passed. I was on the phone with her screaming. >> He's gone and he's unresponsive. He's not He's not listening to me. And Diana. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> So, these are just the little things that I'm trying to clear up because the investigation is showing things that you're telling us that >> aren't cooperating together. your statements and what other people are telling us and what we have physical evidence just doesn't match up. That's where I wanted to give you an opportunity today to be honest because we know >> why he died. Okay. Do you know why he died? >> I don't. >> You don't know what what would have caused him to die? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, I don't. I called people, but I was c I was calling people like my baby. I don't know what happened. So, I did make a lot of calls to family members. Yeah. I mean over the 5 hour period, actually 6 hours before calling 911, you called 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15. You made 15 phone calls. >> I I probably did. I wanted I said I think he's sleeping in. >> And then you know Terry obviously at the end there >> Yeah. >> told me that I need to call 911. >> Yeah. And then a few minutes later you ended up calling 911. I did not want anyone to take him out the house. >> Okay. Um, [clears throat] can you talk to me about the lock on the door on the laundry room door? Were there times where you would put JJ in the laundry room and just lock him in there where he couldn't get out? >> No. >> What about William? >> Um, probably. Yes. Yes. >> So, there was times where JJ would be locked. >> The lock >> in the laundry room. >> The lock was for the dog initially. The lock was for the dog. >> Okay. Why was the dog able to open a door? >> He put it on there. I don't know. >> When you say he, you mean William? >> William. Mhm. >> Okay. Because that doesn't make much sense to be honest. I mean, I'm not I'm just It doesn't >> as a as a I'm just trying to figure out why you why the lock would be on on the outside of the door for the dog. >> He put the dog a lock on the dog. >> Now, sometimes when the door knobs are like the vertical kind where they can reach down, okay, I would understand it. But this was a knob that you would have to turn. >> I understand. But I never locked that door with JJ in it. >> But your statement is there has been times where he has been locked in that laundry room. >> William would. >> Okay. Do you know for roughly how long or why you would do that? >> I don't know. I just kind of surmised. I didn't see him do it, but when I went downstairs and I realized that he could perhaps do that, >> I surmise that he would do that. >> Okay. But you just said that he did do that. Without a doubt in your mind, you you're >> No, not without a doubt. >> Okay. So now, see, this is where I need you to be more clear. All right, Tammy. >> Tamara. >> Tamara. Okay. >> Um, >> I need you to be 100% honest with me. Don't tell me what you think or anything else. I just want to know what you know. >> Okay? >> So, when I ask you, was he ever locked in that room? It's almost a yes or no question answer. >> And then maybe you can say yes, but William would lock him in there. I never did. Or something like that. But be more specific because I don't want you I don't want to read into what you're telling me and then be incorrect. >> I understand. >> Okay. >> So, was he ever locked in that room? I would never see William lock him personally in the room, but I made an assumption that he must have. Yes. >> Okay. So, you never went down there and found the door locked? >> I did not. >> Okay. Now, did Williams sleep in the basement? >> He did. >> Okay. In that bedroom to the right of there. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And you would you don't know why he would have put that lock on the outside? >> I do not. >> Okay. What about the restraints? on the cot. >> The restraints on the cot is when he had his seizures, he would bite and kick, but they didn't really work, so I didn't even use a lot. >> You mean during his seizures, he would bite and kick? >> Yes, he would. >> Okay. >> And it'd be easier to administer his rectal and or or either his nasal medication. >> Okay. Is that how you gave it to him? >> Okay. Did he have both? >> Excuse me. you which one would you use most of the time? The rectal or the nasal? >> The nasal. >> The nasal. Okay. >> Um, so I'm going to show you some pictures and I want you to just sort of explain why the marks would be there the way they are. So according to the corner, okay, obviously those are the restraints that were on >> the the cut. So this is his wrist and according to the corner these markings on his wrist are liature marks caused by the restraints. Um [music] how to turn that off. Is it Can you explain that to me? >> I can but he never these we didn't use these. I've never I quit using them. >> You quit using them. So you in the past? >> Yes, I did a couple of times >> and then I stopped. >> Okay. Um, is there a reason why you left them there or you didn't take them off or >> just >> I'm just trying to understand. >> I understand. I understand. I just didn't take them off. >> Okay. How long ago was when was the last time you used them? >> Probably last year. >> Last year. Okay. >> And you would use them when he had seizures. Is that correct? >> That is correct. >> Okay. only to administer his medications for my safety. >> Okay. >> So, you put him in a restraints, give him his medication, and then would you leave him in the restraints until he calmed down? >> He would calm down immediately. >> Okay. Cuz I know your statements were after a seizure, he'd get aggressive. Is that true? >> It would be. Yes. And then once the medicine kicked in, he would calm down. >> Okay. So, you kept him in the restraints just as long until he calmed down. Correct. And then you take him out of the rest. Okay. So he never was left in the room with restraints on him or anything like that? >> Never. Ever. Ever. >> Okay. When he would get aggressive, would you put him in the laundry room and lock the door >> after you? >> No. >> Or William? >> No. >> Okay. [clears throat] >> No. >> Okay. So, let me ask you this. You know, we found I know you had a dog >> and we found his dog collar um right underneath the head of his cot. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And again, according to the corner, um, these ligature marks on his neck match up with the same size of the dog collar. So, >> I never put a dog collar on him. JJ would scratch himself. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'm just I'm just trying to understand because obviously the corner is telling us something. You know, and she's saying that these liature marks >> have the same size as this doll. >> No, that is not >> Okay, I understand. >> Okay, but you're saying you never use that >> to hold him down or anything else? >> Never. >> All right. Okay. Um, so now you say the night before he had a seizure. >> Mhm. >> Um, you checked on him at 11:00 was your statement prior. Are you still stating that you went down around 11:00 to check on him? >> I'm going to say I don't really recall. My mom was gone. >> Okay. So, you don't know. Did you ever go down to check on them the day that you >> I did. >> Okay. Do you roughly just >> I don't know. During the conversation with somebody, probably my aunt. I don't recall. That day was horrible. >> I understand. I understand. Um, so here's just something else I wanted to show you real quick. Obviously, you say you put them down in the basement because that was the warmest spot and the safest spot. >> Um, when the corner got there and and I will be the first to tell you, we did have the front door open for a few minutes to try to air it out a little bit cuz the the smell of the mothballs was >> getting to us. Mhm. >> Um, >> so this was the ambient air temperature of the laundry room when the corner showed up. >> So obviously, >> you know, it was 56.4° in the basement. >> Um, and then we know you had that fireplace going upstairs. And when we looked at the thermostat on on upstairs, it was like 76 >> 74 >> 74 degrees upstairs, >> right? It doesn't it it goes in and out the electricity. So, my room is freezing. That has been the only room. >> Your room upstairs. >> Upstairs. Yes. >> Okay. >> Um, that stays warm. >> The What room stays warm? >> Downstairs. >> So, the laundry room is the only room stays warm. >> But you can close it and kind of keep the door cracked. And he had a heater in there. >> Okay. >> I don't know why it was that cold that day cuz it's a heater in there. He's usually warmer than I am. >> Okay. All right. Um, so let me see what else. Um, so you you don't know why he would have died. >> No. >> Or what caused him to die? >> Okay. >> Um, now obviously when we found him, >> I know you said you went down and you fed him that morning some soup and gave him his meds and everything else. >> Um, when we got there at 6:00, I don't know if you >> remember or doubt. Um, but the condition of the cot and the condition that he was in, um, was pretty bad. Um, I mean, this is like a picture of the cot, you know, with his feces. >> I didn't even see that. >> I didn't that wasn't like that. >> Okay. And well, that's when we got there. Those are our pictures when we got there at 6:00. >> Um, this was his diaper. I mean, or pull up. >> Yeah, that wasn't like that. I >> mean, obviously that's pretty old, though. Yeah. I mean, >> that wasn't No, that wasn't like that. I He stays clean. I take care of my son. >> Well, the thing again, I'm trying to understand because when I look at this picture, I see something that in my opinion had to be I mean, honestly, I'll be honest, this looks like it's been on them for days. >> No. >> Um, no. >> I mean, with the dried up >> I see that >> feces and, you know, everything else here. >> No. >> Okay. >> No. So, when was the last time you think you changed his >> The day before. >> The So, okay. >> The day that he had the seizure. >> Okay. Do you know around what time? >> I don't. >> All right. Because again, I'm not I'm not trying to upset you, but I want you to understand why I'm asking you these questions. >> I understand. >> Obviously, that's that that's what's was on the cot, you know? I mean, the cot was pretty >> pretty bad. Um, so I'm just trying to get a better understanding. Help me understand because when I look at these pictures, I think, okay, his his pull-up hadn't been changed for days, you know? >> No, it's never been. >> I mean, he he had he had feces all over him, his shirt, his arms, his hands, his legs. >> I don't even when I went down there, I don't even remember seeing any feces on him. I don't know where my mom was, but I don't remember that. When I [clears throat] remember rocking him, I don't remember seeing any feces on him. >> When you say rocking him, can you >> to try to wake him up? >> Okay. So, when you went to go wake him up, do you know what rigger mortise is? >> I do. >> Okay. So, you know rigor mortise is when you're stiff. When you rocked him, was he stiff? >> I can't tell you. I don't. >> You don't remember? >> No, I don't remember. >> Okay. >> But he is always kept really clean, changed. He's never had feces on him. That's just that's never been part of what I do. >> I've given everything everything to him and tried everything to take care of him. >> Now, I know in the in the interview, the first interview you gave us, you mentioned how you've like given you've sacrificed your life. >> Yes. >> You felt like you sacrificed your life. >> That's what parents do. >> To be able to take care of JJ and your mother. >> Correct. Um, >> and I would do it again. >> Okay. All right. There was no like I'm just done. I can't do it anymore. Um, >> never. My whole process was get the house cleaned up. If we couldn't get any electricity, sell it, and me and JJ go into something else and live a better life. >> Okay. Um, so I'm I'm just going to show you these pictures. Obviously, you had some there was electric in the house, correct? Mhm. >> Because the refrigerators were working and obviously you had tons of food in multiple refrigerators. This I think this was >> Those are not mine downstairs. Those are not mine. The refrigerators are not mine downstairs. Those are Williams. >> Okay. So you you didn't share food together or >> No. >> Well, I'm just asking. So the food in this refrigerator William wouldn't eat. >> Yeah. He would eat our food. >> Okay. But >> but he had his own food. >> Okay. So he wouldn't allow you to go down there and eat your food. >> No. But your refrigerator was you had plenty of food, correct? So that wasn't an issue where you couldn't afford food or anything like that. >> I was struggling. Uh my aunt and family members would send food, but >> send food or just send money for food? >> No. Instacart, especially when my mother would order it through like Kroger's or something. Okay. But food wasn't an issue? >> Never. >> Okay. So you that wasn't a problem? >> No. So, if I tell you that JJ, the cause of death for JJ was that he starved to death. Would that would you be able to explain that to me? Why? >> I couldn't explain that. He ate all the time. >> Well, I know he had PA, so he wanted to eat all the time. Correct. >> Yes, he had PA. >> Yeah. Um, >> did you have a funeral for JJ? Was there a funeral? >> No. >> Okay. Did you what did you do with his body? >> He's been an iron. He's been cremated. >> Okay. Okay. Um, so again, we believe that the cause of death was starvation, which means that he wouldn't have eaten anything for, if not days, weeks. Um, and he would have been very weak there at the end. >> He >> So, let me let me finish real quick because I I I want you to understand um what we know so you can I I honestly want I I think you know the truth. >> I do. >> Okay. You know the truth. >> I don't. >> Um and I I I want to give you the opportunity to be honest. Sure. >> Because we know that we know the truth. >> Um and the truth is that he hadn't eaten or drank anything in days. >> That's not true. >> If not weeks. >> That's not true. So towards the end of his life, he would have been very weak. He wouldn't have been able to get up and walk around. >> That's not true. That's not true. That's absolutely not true. >> And let me say this, I was struggling financially. My aunt helped. I got $15 a month in food stamps. William ate and got food stamps on his own and did what he wanted to do. When he was going to Children's Hospital, they changed his medication because JJ's appetite decreased. I would give him food all the time. Sometimes he would want to eat and sometimes he wouldn't. I had appointment coming up the next day to talk to a new neurologist to kind of see, well, where are we at with his weight? What can we do to increase it? What can I do >> with his weight? >> Yes, with his weight. But I've never not >> So, did you notice a weight loss? >> I thought he was gaining and then when my mom passed, I saw him. It was a concern of mine. Yes. >> Mhm. >> I put it out and he would just not want to eat and I thought maybe he was going through some kind of depression. But not eating me not for weeks. No, that is not true. That is not true whatsoever. That is not true. >> Okay. Um, >> so let me ask you when when your mom was alive, was she did she >> was she the primary caregiver for JJ? >> Like did she I mean obviously you couldn't drive, correct? >> Right. >> So your mom would drive him to school when he went to school. Yes. Mhm. >> He she would drive him to doctor appointments and she would >> a few >> Is she the one that would get his lunch ready for school or get him dressed or any of that? >> Never. >> Okay. So, you're saying you did all that? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. um most of the correspondence like with doctors when you spoke to the doctors and when I'm talking when your mom was alive and healthy. >> Who were those conversations with mostly? >> I'm sorry. >> So if if you spoke to a doctor, >> um would it be you talking to the doctor, your mom talking to the doctor? Would it be both of you? >> If I wasn't there, we would do a conference call. >> Okay. >> And I would be the main one talking to the doctor. >> Okay. So your mom are you So your mom how much involvement did your mom have in in taking care of JJ? >> About 30%. She didn't buy clothes. She didn't get him dressed. She just was mostly the transporter. >> Okay. >> All right. Um and real quick, I I don't mean to pry too much, but So what happened to your mom? >> She got sick. Did she she just did she have did something happen to her or did she have a stroke or >> so she had a stroke? >> Okay. Um All right. Is there anything else that you think we need to know? Obviously I I've sort of laid down the ground work uh trying to get to the bottom of what happened. Um, this is the type of case where, you know, we depend on >> other professional opinions. This isn't like a shooting or anything like that. >> So, we rely a lot on the doctors and everything else. Um, >> so if there's something that you can do to help us, I want to give you the opportunity to tell us what happened, why, how, when, and everything else. and >> that's that's the summation of what I can say. >> Okay. >> Um I didn't know that was the cause. I didn't know that that was what was going on. I did see that he had gained and then he was losing and I knew that there would be times that he wouldn't want to eat and I thought that he was going through some depression. I made an appointment with the neurologist because the last medication made his appetite decrease. But I fed him. I fed. >> Now, let me let me ask you this cuz again, I I want to make sure I understand because I think in the previous All I know is what you told us before. >> In the previous interview, you mentioned how he had PA. >> Yes, he >> and he would get into everything. if he could if he could get his hands on some food, he would get in it and he would eat it. Um, and now you're telling us that his appetite was decreased and >> yeah, in the past he would >> So with PAH though, would would that medication still >> No, the PA had decreased, but I think that after talking with his old doctor, he said, "My concern is that this medication is probably causing him to have a decrease. Let's switch up." Who's his old doctor? >> Dr. Shapiro. Okay. >> From Children's Hospital. >> So, why are you no longer seeing Dr. Shapiro? >> He retired. >> Okay. So, before he retired, he told you that. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Okay. Um, just trying to think. Um, how do you know he was gaining and losing weight? How did How did you determine that? >> Just by looking at him. >> So, there was no scale. You didn't have a scale. So like, >> yeah, I had a scale and he had picked up about 10 lbs and then it broke. >> Okay. So you knew you knew that he was gaining weight just because of the scale that you use at the house. It wasn't anything from doctor visits or anything. So there wasn't weights that you were getting from doctors saying >> no, >> he weighed this much, gained weight, lost weight. >> No, but I figured that going to the appointment at Children's Hospital, >> you know, setting that up, we would find out. And I know we had we kind of talked about this a little bit previously about those doctor's appointments. How how many times did the doctors actually physically see him because I know that a lot of the stuff was virtual. But >> it was we were getting back to it because I was taking care of my mom and I couldn't take the risk of getting her sick >> nor myself. So a lot of his appointments were virtual or tele uh telephone. >> Okay. But with my mom transitioning, I was going to get back to having inerson appointments and just putting a mask on. >> Okay. >> But prior to when do you think the last time somebody a doctor, physician, primary care, whatever. When do you think the last time that somebody physically saw you know JJ in person? >> Yeah. Whether it's at your house or in the doctor's office. >> Um last year sometime maybe in the beginning of the year, Dr. Shapiro saw him at Children's Hospital. >> Okay. >> In Liberty Township. >> When was that? I'm sorry. When did you say >> that? Was last year. >> Last year, >> I believe. I'm not certain. >> Okay. We could Can we talk a little bit about You said that you tried to do CPR. >> Is that not not on JJ? No. Okay. Um, and that was something that was that we talked about that you mentioned the first time was that you tried to do CPR, but you didn't do >> I don't think I did. I think I was just rocking him trying to wake him up. >> Okay, gotcha. >> And William didn't try to do CPR on him that you were or that you saw? No. >> Okay. >> Not to get too personal personal, but why did you kick William out? Let's not use that term, but >> okay. Why did you ask him to leave? >> Just everything that the loss and needing support and missing my son and my mother. >> Okay. I know. So, I'm going to go back to the first interview again, and I believe it was uh Lieutenant Wilter here that asked the question about discipline and William disciplining JJ. >> Um, I will tell you when I watched the interview, there is a eerie pause by you. Mhm. >> Um, and I'm not sure if you were trying to protect William or But I'm going to ask you again when it came to discipline or anything like that, abuse. I know there was one time where JFS was called for some sort of uh abuse. >> No. >> From William, stating that he pushed him down. >> No, there wasn't. >> He would trip him and push him and >> there wasn't any. >> There was a lot of yelling. There is. I could tell you there is. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. Um there is a complaint that JFS uh >> investigated now they found it to be unsubstantial but >> I want to give you an opportunity to let's go back to the disciplining from William. >> Yes. >> How how would that happen or what happened there? [sighs] >> And at this point there's no reason to protect him. I understand. I wasn't protecting him. I think that I'm in shock. >> Okay. >> I know that I'm in shock. Um I wasn't brought up with corporal discipline and I tried to get William out of my home for quite some time. He was too harsh and overkill. Ridiculous. It was scary. Um [sighs] I'm shaking. I'm cold. I >> Sorry. If I had something to give you, I would. But >> I have um >> the heat did kick on a little bit. I can I feel like we turned it up, so I think it's going up a little bit in here. I have um it was too much. It was horrible sometimes. His yelling, screaming at the both of us. >> At the both of you. Okay. >> Yeah. It was bad. And so I just tried to keep things together for my family, taking care of my mother [clears throat] with a limited budget, being very sick myself, and trying to love my son. I would never try to starve him. I would never hurt him. But my main goal was to move. And I guess I had this dream that we would have a better life selling the house and getting something smaller so that I could give him a better life away from William. That's the two most important people in my life. I was just trying to hold on. I was just trying to make it better, but I would never hurt him. And so most of our arguments, I would just say, "He's a good kid. No kid is perfect, but he's a good baby. He's a He's my baby. He's a good kid." >> Mhm. And I would get in between them and I didn't have anybody to go to. I didn't have anybody. I did call the police one time. And it was like if he lives there, you can't kick him out. You have to go through the process. And I thought by moving by moving that could separate it. The the more that he stayed there like he broke my garage doors. he's damaged my home. That by moving we could separate and that JJ and I could have a better life. I would never starve my baby. I would never do that. I would never do anything to hurt him. But I felt like these you felt like what? Say it. >> I felt like I was trapped. >> It felt like me and GJ were trapped. I didn't put a dog collar on my son. I changed him. I left my mother. I don't have a track record of anything. I went to school, college. I got sick. But my main goal was to keep my family together and to love them and give them the best quality of life that I could. I just didn't understand what was wrong with him and I just wanted him to go on with his life. It felt like a nightmare. >> And you're talking about William. >> I'm talking about William. >> Okay. So, you had all this go on. You [sighs] know, your your mom died in no late November. Your dog died in January. JJ died in February. You know, now you're in an abusive relationship with um William. I know you said it a few times in the first interview, you were just tired. That's a lot. It's a lot for a person. And sometimes people get to their breaking points. Okay? I'm not saying you didn't love I'm not saying you didn't love JJ, okay? But people get to their breaking point sometime and sometimes they just don't know what to do and and they they make irrational decisions. Not that you're a bad person or that you're not educated or you're not smart, but this you were at the end of your rope and you didn't know what else to do because everything that we've investigated, okay? And I'm I'm probably shouldn't even tell you this, but bottom line is he starved to death. He was not fed for days, if not weeks. >> That's not true. >> It is true. It is. You can't say because here's here's the difference. You can say that, but the evidence there's no doubt. There's no fighting the evidence from the autopsy. >> Okay? I would. >> There's nothing that you can do to change the fact of what we found in the autopsy. >> Nothing. >> Sir, I'm telling you that I fed my son, that he ate, >> that I didn't starve my son. >> You said you fed him that day. You said you fed him food that day. >> William fed him supposed to fed him that morning and then I fed him. When you all came, I had food out there on the waiting for him. I'll tell you that between the two, whether you or Williams, whoever, it was our understanding that he was fed that day, that he was given food um around 11, 11:30, that he was given food, soup >> to eat, and that he was fed down in the laundry room where he was. >> Yes, he had soup, tomato soup. >> And so that he was given food, >> that's the part that Detective K was talking about is that the the evidence doesn't support that you fed him because there was nothing in his stomach. I don't understand that I fed him >> and I understand that you that you don't want to understand or you don't want to believe that. >> But that's the part where we're trying to ask you about how things were and if you were at that point when he's talking about the breaking point, is there something that just in your mind you said I can't >> No, I took pride in loving and caring for my son. >> But let me ask you this. I know that you talked about how you didn't go to the basement very much because that was William's bedroom over there, but you had a hard time getting up and down the stairs sometimes. >> How do you know that JJ was being fed? Were you making the food, which is what you're telling us, is that you took care of him? >> Yes. >> And then William's job was to bring it to him. >> Yes. >> Is that usually how it works? >> Yes. >> Okay. And then when they were done with food, who who cleaned up? Who got the dishes or brought it up or anything along those lines? JJ would bring it up and then we would get a shower and we do our work. >> Okay. >> But there's a history of me always feeding him. There was no breaking point. I took pride in whatever I had making sure that he ate. >> Did you see that he was eating >> when I called him in the evenings in the afternoon? >> I didn't know like did you see him physically eat? Did you eat with him sometimes? Did you Yes. >> go in the room and watch him eat? Did you >> I would eat with him. >> Okay. Did you have the ability to like again or I'm sorry. Did JJ have the ability to feed himself? Use a spoon, a fork, a knife, whatever he could feed himself, all that stuff. Okay. >> Yes, he did. >> And that's what I'm asking if you know you physically watched him eat his food. >> Yes. >> But the food that he ate that day, you did not see him eat. >> I did not. >> Okay. But you did you see him eat the night before? >> Yes. >> And then did you see him eat the day before that? >> Yes. There's still no food in his stomach. >> There's nothing in there. >> There should be some food in there. >> Well, again, >> I understand you want to believe that, but we're telling you that >> I understand that >> medical professionals who do this for a living >> and examine JJ. >> There's nothing there. >> There's nothing in his stomach. Not only is there nothing in his stomach, but there's 21 ft of intestines that there was nothing in also. I don't understand that. >> So, what we're telling you there there's and this is where I tell you like there there's no disputing it. >> Okay? We have physical evidence that >> you can't you can't just say, "Ah, well, I don't care what that says. I'm telling you I fed them." >> Because I'm telling you you didn't feed him. >> Okay? >> And I'm telling you I did. >> Well, the evidence shows otherwise. Okay? And I will be honest with you. I've been try I want to be respectful. I understand you're going through a lot and everything else. >> Bottom line is I think he was locked in that room for more than two or three four or five days if not weeks. He wasn't fed. He wasn't given any drink any water or anything to drink. He wasn't given his medication and he laid on that cot and he suffered and he died because of neglect from you and William. >> No. >> Because that is what the evidence shows. That is true. >> So, I'm I'm giving you an opportunity to be honest and and tell us what happened, but if you're going to sit here and tell me that you fed him that day, >> you're you're >> I said William was supposed to feed him that day that that night he had the soup. >> You're changing your story now. You can't keep doing that because what you said the first time to what you're saying multiple times now is that >> what we are gathering from this and what you said your William didn't help with anything. Now, he helps with this. Your mom was 30% of the help, you know, but mainly just to do the driving and things like that. >> But let me So, bringing that up, let me let me read you his medical history, okay? And I'll just I won't go back too far, but let's go back to uh 2020. All right. You met with the neurologist through tele medicine with mom and grandma. Neurologist visit in 21 with grandma. Last visit at Children's was with Dr. Shapiro Shapiro even noticed significant weight loss at that visit. Um there was no visits in 2022. Um the he had a seizure in 20 that where he went to the emergency room with mom and grandma. Um, so when you tell me that grandma only had 30% of taking care of him, everything in here grandma is a part of. And a lot of times, well, I don't want to say a lot of times, but there are times where it was her by herself and you weren't there >> because I was very sick. >> Okay. But so she took she took care of JJ because the people I speak to at ADS I spoke to look we've been investigating this for two months a little over two months. I've spoken to everyone that knows JJ. >> Okay. And when I speak to his school, the people that dealt with him at school, it was grandma. Grandma's who they dealt with. Grandma was who picked them up. Grandma's who made their lunch. Grandma's who, you know, did everything for him. Not that you weren't a part of it. That's >> But grandma was the one that was driving. She was the one taking care of him. She was the primary caretaker when she was healthy. >> She was not. She was the care. She would take him to school. I had him on a very strict diet of um no u gluten. I bought his food. I made his lunch. I bought his clothes. She got him got in the car. I gave him a shower. Got him ready. And that's how it was. She was with me because she was my support system. I was at every ETR's IEPs and she was with me. So that is not the truth. So >> I just I think she's more involved than just 30% what you're trying to say. So um >> No, she wasn't. But I appreciate what you're trying to say. We're going to agree to disagree. She wasn't. >> Okay. Um let me ask you this real quick, too. I mean, um, we talked about JJ having some type of case worker or manager for him as well, >> and that, um, I know that you didn't know who it was or anything like that. Um, do you remember the last time that anything with the case, anybody, case manager, anything like that did anything? >> I don't. >> Okay. Did they did people reach out to you and offer things or No. Did you ever talk to anybody or >> No. at one time when they had a scholarship where I could get respit but that ended before co >> Okay. Um let me ask you this. I know we talked about because you can't work and I think we discussed some financial things a little bit the last time but um how do you get do you get money for having JJ? Is that something that happens whether it's through JFS or through >> JFS and disability? >> Okay. So through JFS and disability you would get a monthly check >> um for the adoption process and through disability with JJ. Mhm. >> Do you also get a disability check for yourself? >> No, he doesn't get disability. >> Okay. He doesn't. No. Okay. >> Just me. >> Did you get something for um having JJ like with his disabilities and help and assistance from that whether it's through JFS or anything else? >> No. >> Okay. So, the only check that you got was specifically for you and disability from from the government. Is that right? >> This is how it is. I get disability and then he gets a predeem from the state. >> Okay. What? Who gives that pdeium? The state of Ohio gets that. So, but you get that through Hamilton County's JFS. Okay. And he gets a pdeium. >> And that was a monthly. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Do you remember what how much that was? >> 1,200. >> Okay. >> And then for your disability, what what were you getting a month for your disability check that you were getting? 900. >> And did William contribute anything? I know that he did not did he get a disability check that he would contribute or anything? >> I don't no contribute anything. >> Okay. Is there any other financial assistance that you would get um from anywhere? I know you mentioned that you would get some food stamps or anything like that, but it didn't seem like it was very much. So, >> okay. Um, did you get anything as a result of I know you were talking about retirement stuff with your mom. Did anything start coming through with that? Is any was anything from that end? Okay. >> Just enough to bury her and a $200 check. >> Okay. So, you did get there was a $200 a month check that was coming or just >> a $200 a one time deal. Okay. >> And then so we were talking about ABS. Um, and I know that we talked about how that was one of the places that JJ went to. >> What was the reason he stopped going there? >> My doctors wouldn't allow me to let him go there because of my health. >> So, the doctors wouldn't let you >> Mhm. >> Okay. And it didn't have anything to do with with JJ? >> Nothing to do with JJ. >> Okay. So it wasn't from he didn't have a behavioral issue that said that they wouldn't let him they didn't kick him out of ABS or anything like that. Okay. >> And if you told me that before that he was kicked out because of behavioral issues because of him having a temper >> I'm sorry >> you mentioned that before that he was kicked out of ABS. They wouldn't let him back. >> I did not I didn't ever say that. Um, I know you said you have three autoimmune disabil dis um diseases. What are they? Um, they're very serious, but I don't know if I should I >> Okay. >> And is that the reason you're on disability? >> Yes. >> Because of that. Okay. Mhm. Um, >> and which doctors told you like if there was a doctor that we needed to talk to that said you can't send JJ to ABS anymore because it's >> Dr. Soa. >> Dr. >> Soamusa. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> Is that your doctor? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Do you know who who is he with? >> Who's his doctor? >> No, no, no. Who is he like what provider? Is he with Mercy? Try healthy. I'm sorry. >> She's by herself. >> She's by herself >> out of practice. Mhm. >> Okay. And it's Musa is the last name. >> Mhm. >> Do you know how to spell that? >> No. >> Okay. Do Where's her office located at? >> Westchester. >> Do you know where in Westchester? >> Um, not off hand. No. >> Okay. When's the last time you saw her? >> I'm supposed to see her now. I don't even remember. >> You don't know the last time you saw her? I I can't really recall. >> Has it been a while? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Few months maybe. I'm supposed to go but >> Oh, just a few months. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> But she's the one that said that JJ should not go to this school because >> that is Yes. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Um Do you have anything else or um >> No, I think one of the other things I kind of want to clear, I mean, I know you mentioned that >> JJ being downstairs because you thought it was the warmest place. >> Um, >> you know, obviously some of the things that we we discussed and I didn't know all of these things previously, but >> one of the things I kind of want to hit on is what we talked about is that when I asked why he wouldn't sleep in his room, Um, you mentioned that he felt very comfortable with the cot. You felt that the cot was >> the the least likely place for him to be injured if he fell off of that. Correct. >> Um, and that he that his bed was too high. >> Mhm. >> Where was his bed in his room? >> Um, it was on the floor with stuff covering. It was a low bed, but that was broken. So, we bought a new bed. I bought a twin extra long with a mattress. >> Okay. So it's going to clear it out. >> When was the last time that he he slept in that room? >> Probably about almost a year. >> So he'd been sleeping in the basement for about a year? >> He's been in my room with me? >> In your room? >> Mhm. >> He slept in your room with you? >> Mhm. >> Um and again, if I think we talked about this, too, that was JJ capable of going to the bathroom on his own? He didn't need you, but you kept the diaper on just in case there was accidents or >> He did never had a bow movement on himself. So we I make cutouts >> so that this would be covered and he could have a beam. >> Okay. >> But so he would Mhm. He'll let you know. >> He could walk up the steps and go to the bathroom on his own. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> He would let you know. >> Okay. And he would let you know. How would he let you know? If he was in the basement, how would he let you know? >> He would say boo boo. >> Okay. And did you always hear him if you were upstairs and he would just come up? Just come up and tell me. I said, "Okay, it's one more time." >> Okay. Did William ever help with with that? If William was downstairs, did he ever say, "Hey, it's time for him to go to the bathroom." >> Yes. And the only reason I asked that is just because it's if if that was the case, you know, the amount of feces that was on him from the pictures that you just saw >> would suggest that he he didn't have that he didn't get up to do that, that he wouldn't get up to go do that, that if he was doing that on himself, and that the fact that the cop had as much feces on it as that was there is is a concern that we're also talking about when when you again, you don't want to believe that you saw that or those things, But >> that is what we saw. And that's not just fresh, that's old. That's that's definitely that definitely has several days worth. >> It wasn't several days. However, there would be times where he would have accidents out. >> Sure. >> You just carry extra clothes. He wasn't fully potty trained. Um, >> but you had mentioned that you and I would tell you that in the previous interview, you mentioned that you cleaned him up that day, the day that he died. >> No, then I made a mistake. No, he had a seizure. I kept him down there because I was afraid if he came upstairs, I was too weak if he fell out. >> That is the reason. >> Okay. >> So, I want to um reiterate on the sleeping arrangements if you don't mind. I mean, obviously, you and William were um engaged for seven years. You guys didn't sleep in the same beds or same rooms or anything? >> I did not. >> Okay. So, he slept where? >> Downstairs. >> So, his room was in the basement. That is correct. >> Okay. And your room was that back >> room to the right there with the be bathroom in it. Was that yours? >> That was my mother's. >> That was your mother's. Where was your bedroom? >> In the back. >> On the other side then. Correct. Okay. >> Okay. And you're saying that JJ slept with you every night up until maybe a year ago or so? >> Correct. >> Okay. All right. Um, >> does William have any kids? >> He does. >> Do you know who they are or have you ever met them? >> I have. >> What's their names? >> Um, one I don't know too much about. I don't know if that's his child or not. She's an adult. Her name is Christina. >> Christina. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Who else? Chris, do you know her last name? >> The same as his turn. >> Turnage. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And she's an adult. >> Mhm. Do you know roughly how old? >> No. >> In her 20s. >> 20s. Okay. >> Did he have any other kids? >> No. >> That's it. Just as one Christina terms. Okay. >> Was he ever married prior to your relationship with him? >> Yes, >> he was. Okay. No kids from that marriage besides Christina or >> I don't I don't think so. >> Okay. >> I don't know. So, I know we didn't get to talk about this, but so obviously we talked to William that night, too. The first when when JJ died. >> Yes. >> If if William says that JJ goes to the bathroom in his diaper and wets it and dirties it all the time. He's constantly need to be changed. >> Mhm. >> Would that be accurate? >> No, not necessarily. He urinates on himself. But if I can catch it, we'll do something and I'll say it's time to boo boo. >> Okay. Matter of fact, I wrote down he described him like a newborn baby that he is constantly going to the bathroom that he doesn't go to the bathroom on his own that he's continually dirting his diaper. >> So, so you think that JJ would do that? That he would be able to get up and that that William statement was inaccurate? >> It's inaccurate. You can say JJ is a time to boo and he'll go boooo. Okay. Yeah. The other thing too is that he mentioned that JJ had to stay in his room because if he didn't that he would get into things and he would constantly get in his stuff and and would eat and eat and eat and they had to do that to keep him had to stay in his room to keep him from getting into things. >> And that's that wasn't necessarily true. That's not the reason that there was a lock on the outside of that door. I don't know why there was a lock on that door. He said it was to keep the dog >> from getting out. I don't >> What about his bedroom that's upstairs? The one that you said that he hasn't slept in for a year. >> Mhm. >> And that's his bedroom. >> Mhm. >> Why was there a lock on the outside of that? There was a chain link that goes across that. Why is there one on that? >> That was like that before when we had foster kids many years ago. Um >> my mother did that. >> Your mother did that? >> She did. >> Who'd she do that for? I can't remember. >> Does that seem like I mean I just want to know does that seem like something normal that people would do that they would put a lock? >> It did. And then the case worker said it. No. So we didn't use it. >> But they didn't make you remove it. >> I don't think so. >> I mean it's still there. I mean obviously they did. But I mean if the case if I was a case worker and I didn't want you to use it, I'd ask you to remove it because otherwise >> I have no way of knowing if you did or not. >> I don't know. She just didn't feel safe with a particular teenager. >> Okay. >> And you have no idea where William might be at this point? >> I do not. >> Okay. Haven't talked to him? >> I have not. >> In a month, >> correct? Close to that. >> Okay. All right. Let me ask you this. >> Mhm. >> Do you feel like you've been honest with us to this point? you feel like you've been honest with us and >> I do. >> Um, while I know that you believe that certain things that we're telling you can't be true, >> I will tell you that we're not here lying to you about anything that we've discussed today. That these are things that you will hear again and these are things that will be provable by whoever you discuss things with after this, whether it's your attorney, you see anything else, but these are things that you will see again and here again as a result of us telling you this. Now, there's probably a few other things that we haven't discussed or talked about. Um, but I will tell you that we we are not here lying to you and trying to get you to tell us something just to say you did or didn't do anything. We're here telling you that this is the chance that you have to be able to describe as much as you can honestly as you can. And right now, I just I'm having a hard time believing that you're being honest with us. And I kind of went through that the first time I talked to you is like we need to be honest. said, "Honesty is the key for how this works and going forward from here." >> And again, >> you're college educated, you're smart, you understand how this this works, >> but if we go forward from here, >> and then we continue to investigate, which we will, we'll continue to investigate. >> And I can tell you right now, there are things that you told us in the first interview that we discussed things and things you're telling us now, they contradict each other. I will tell you that there things that you told me that just flat are not true. Mhm. >> And that's those are things that if you want to try and keep digging that hole of, you know, I didn't do this, I didn't do this, I didn't do this, there's not going to be a way out for you down the road. Because today, after today, I don't think that you'll ever talk to us again. Unless you unless you're going to leave here and walk out of this room and you're going to go to the Hamilton County Justice Center and go see a judge and you're going to talk to an attorney. And unless you have a change of heart and a change of mind that says, "I need to be way more honest than what I was, you're not going to talk to us again after this." Mhm. >> So, if you're comfortable with us walking out of this room right now and you feel like you've been honest with us all the way through with everything and that you haven't held back, then we'll accept that and we'll move on and we'll go forward. But as you sit here, you know that we've charged you with some very serious crimes, that the grand jury has heard this and has indicted you on these very serious crimes. >> And moving forward, >> it's going to be up to you to try and >> figure out if you can disprove the things that we just said. And I don't I don't know how you disprove what a corner says about somebody having no food in their stomach and they died from starvation >> is a horrible painful suffering death. >> I can imagine >> that is what JJ went through. And for someone that has done everything in their life to care for him that puts everything ahead of him. >> I don't believe that you're telling us the truth right now. >> I am. And I believe I um >> that's that's all you have to say. I will I will answer them honestly if there are more questions. But >> I just I just don't think that that you are I don't I don't think I think you're leaving things out purposely to try and make it seem like you weren't neglecting him, but there's obvious neglect. Those pictures are neglect. Him not having any food in his stomach is neglect. >> I don't understand that. And that's the honest to God's truth. I don't >> I don't understand it. I I'll be honest with you, neither do we. >> And it's it's it's very tough for us to sit here and think that someone could not feed their child, that someone would not take care of them, that someone possibly locked them in a room, not in a not just in a bedroom. Again, I could maybe understand a little bit about the bedroom and with the lock on there because if you're concerned that if he gets out and you guys are sleeping and he might go out, he could get into things and you're concerned with that. But you left him in a room with anything you can think of that could be all kinds of that could hurt him, injure him. It wasn't comfortable for him in there. It couldn't have been. >> It was temporary and it >> but it wasn't temporary. >> Do he hasn't he hasn't been in his bedroom for a year. You just said that >> he's been in my room. >> But he he couldn't have been in your room. >> He was >> You just said that he had to be down in the basement. You couldn't go down the basement because when it got colder, he was down there because I didn't have adequate heat. >> There was plenty of adequate heat upstairs. So, that's another thing that we have a hard time with that there was adequate heat. There was the ability to do those things. And then we talked about, as a matter of fact, I remember you got a little frustrated with me when I asked you about you telling me how you had to use an extension cord to run things upstairs and to do whatever and that this is only the electric only worked in certain areas. >> It goes out. >> It goes out >> and I understand that. But I will tell you that the entire time that we were there, we spent a lot of time at your at your house >> taking pictures, investigating, searching, and everything. And nothing ever went out. We actually came back to your house again and I still don't think there was anything out. So when the frustration that you think you had with me when I asked the question about why wouldn't you just run the extension cord upstairs to heat the upstairs in your room. You got very frustrated with me about that particular question. >> We did. But William uses the electricity from the car and he was running two heaters in the downstairs which pulled and it would knock everything out upstairs. But not while we were there. That wasn't happening while we were there. >> Listen, he wasn't in the van running it and he didn't have on the heater downstairs. So, no, it would not. It would not. You can't even turn on a microwave and a burner at the same time without the power going out. >> I just I mean, like I said, we were there. I feel like there was a fair amount of lights in electric bathroom, kitchen, everything else. I just I want to be able to understand. You also asked me why didn't I go to my family to get help for electricity as well. I remember that. I recall. >> I did ask you. I I believe I did ask you that. Why didn't you just ask your family if they could help you with the the bill with the payment or anything? And and they put you up in a hotel for >> They did. I was in a hotel for 6 weeks. So I >> I was in a hotel. We were >> and I and I believe I understand that. So during that 6 weeks time period then you came back to the house in was it December? >> You were in there from December to January. >> January. >> You were there from December to January. So >> I don't know what happened but I don't that's the part where we're trying to figure out how all this went from you were at the hotel needed help with electric all those things and then now JJ's not being fed. He's dehydrated. He's he's starving. He's not being taken care of. Those are the That's what we're looking at here. We're seeing this. It's it's very difficult to to try and understand that. How are we supposed to explain something? Because while as much as we try to prove that somebody did something wrong, we also need to be able to have the answers to show that somebody was doing something right. >> And that's what we're asking you. And you're telling us that you did all these things, >> but there's evidence to suggest you did not. >> I did. I fed my son. I gave him food. I don't >> Okay. >> I don't understand this. >> Do you have any questions for us? >> Where do we go from here? Where do I go from here? >> So, >> and can I make a call? >> Um, so what'll happen is you'll be transported to Hamilton County Justice Center. >> Um, they'll process you >> and then once you get processed, they'll give you >> the opportunity to make a phone call. Um, if you want I know you wanted some phone numbers out of your phone. >> Um, >> do you mind can I do you is there a code? >> Yeah. 8264 >> 82 >> 64. >> Wow. That's good. Um, what what phone numbers do you need or where do I go to get them for you? >> Look where the phone is. >> Right here. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> You're going to go to contacts. >> Okay. >> You're going to go to starting with the top Artha. >> Do you want Aunt Diana? Cuz I see that one first. >> Mhm. I don't see Artha Artha. Do you see Do you see Elijah? >> I do. >> Where is it? I'm sorry. I don't see it. Oh, I see it. I see it. I'm sorry. >> Mhm. >> Anybody else? >> Yes. Um, continue to go down. You'll get um brother G. >> Brother baby bro G. >> Mhm. Okay. All right. Um Lauren, >> Lauren, baby sis. >> Mhm. I probably give you one more if you want. >> Um, yeah. So, if you go to my text >> Okay. Can I get two more of my brother? And you'll see a 225 number, a 513225 number. >> Is it just a number? >> Mhm. Cuz I didn't put them in my contacts. >> 225. Okay. Who is that? >> Billy. >> Put Bill. >> Bracie. >> You don't know who Bill is, right? No. Okay. How you spell Bissi? >> B R I S S E. >> Okay. >> And Ron. >> Ron. >> Mhm. I needed one more after that, too. >> Is there >> That's in contact. >> Oh, that's in contact. PQR and um Milton. Milton, bro. >> Mhm. and my pastor as well. Pastor Mavery I'm going to be honest. I don't even remember talking to you. I remember talking to Detective Ka. I remember your house. He was at your house. I was the one that talked to you here at the PD. >> Yeah. I don't even remember. >> I mean, I was at the house too a little bit. So, >> I say me and Detective Paul and Ellie were you talked to here? Yeah. >> At the PD. >> Yeah. I don't remember talking to you. Hear the numbers. >> Yeah. >> Tam, can I ask you something? >> Yes. >> Do you have any regret or remorse or feelings of I could have done better? Or do you even feel like maybe I screwed up? Things got too out of control? Things got too out of hand? My life was spiraling. I was in a bad relationship. I wasn't I I needed to get out of the house. I lost my mother, all these things going on. >> And do you think that maybe just for all the stuff that was going on, >> is there a chance that you just couldn't deal with anything and you just said, "I'm not going to deal with JJ. I'm not going to deal with William and just >> remember JJ. Never JJ." But I do >> I don't understand. I mean, we're parents. All right. I don't understand how he does not have anything in his stomach. Tamar, Tam, he doesn't have anything in his stomach. He doesn't have anything in his intestines. He's covered in feces. This is a kid that can't take care of himself. He needs you to do this. >> I understand. >> He needs you. >> I understand. >> He needs what? He needs somebody to do this. >> He laid on a cop and suffered. >> He suffered horribly. >> My heart is broken for him. Mhm. >> And you're supposed to be his mother. >> Mhm. >> You're supposed to be the one that takes care of him. >> Mhm. >> Tell me why. Tell me. >> I don't know what to tell you but that I've given and I loved and I fed him and I did everything that I could for him. >> But you stopped at some point. >> I did not. >> You had to have >> I did not. >> You had to have stopped. >> I did not. >> You absolutely stopped. >> I did not. >> Then why does he not have food in his stomach? >> I don't understand. Why did he lose the amount of weight that he's lost? >> I don't Why weren't you getting him to the doctor? Why weren't you letting him see people? >> I had to depend on transportation. What do you mean see people? >> Why wouldn't you let him see the doctors and see go physically get there? Go to those places. Let him not be in school and interact with other people. >> I explained that to you. We were getting back to that. >> Do you think that doctor uh that you tell you think she's going to tell us that you she said that? Yes. >> You think she will tell us that? >> I do that. >> Yes. >> Okay. I don't necessarily think that would be the case because I feel like with today's society and medical advancements, I think people can do a lot of things that don't even be that way. But I and Detective Ko and anybody else does, but we we just we want to know why. We want to know why things happen. Sometimes we don't get the answers. And I don't think we're going to get those answers today from you either. But you don't even seem sorry or upset or have any remorse for for what's going on. And the fact that we're sitting here telling you that the child that you adopted at the age of 11 months >> suffered for the better part of at least a couple weeks if not longer. >> Um >> and was in a basement in a room that had nothing but chemicals and cement and the best place for him to be is all this. None of this makes sense to me. Doesn't make sense at all. >> I understand. I've been grieving for some time now. I don't have to just show. >> So is that the reason? Is that the reason why you you lost touch with JJ because of your own grief? No. And I have given and right now I'm in shock just like I did not remember you. >> I remember your words. >> I understand I and I I can appreciate that and I understand that that there is a shock factor that kind of goes with that. But >> at the same time like >> you're saying things to try and alleviate the responsibility for what happened to JJ to us right now. >> No, >> you're trying to tell us that you didn't do anything wrong. That's what you're doing right now. You're telling us you didn't do anything wrong, >> sir. I'm speaking the facts. I did everything for my son and to keep him healthy and alive. I gave everything. When everybody gave up and said he'd be a lump on the law, a lump on a log, I fought for him. I fought for him to walk. I fought for him for everything. If you call back at ABS, even though my mom dropped him off, I was at the meetings. I was at the one trying to get him the best care. I tried to do everything to keep him together and to make sure that he was okay. I would never starve my son. I don't understand why he didn't have any food in his stomach. And I promise you that. I don't understand it. I never would do anything to put him in harm's way. I take that very seriously. I'm not going to break down here because this is I'm in shock. I'm in shock. But I love him. I will always love him. And I did everything that I could to make sure he was okay. I don't understand that he never laid around in feces ever. Few >> You want to see the pictures again? >> I don't need to. I don't. >> I I would say that he did lay around. >> I know that now, but I'm saying previously. >> Here's what I'm going to tell you. And you just hit the nail on the head there. Previously, everything you just said, I 100% agree with. I 100 I would I'm not I wouldn't say one thing you just said was incorrect previously but there came a point recently where you gave up and it was too much for you and you couldn't handle it and you stopped doing all those things that you just mentioned and again you can say what you want to >> okay but the physical evidence proves proves otherwise. There's nothing that you're going to be able to say or do that will prove that the evidence we have is incorrect or not right or you're not going to prove otherwise because it's impossible to do. And that's why honestly that's why I wanted to talk to you today. Okay? >> I wanted to talk to you to like he said to give you an opportunity to tell us what happened. Why? Why? And was it your mom? Was it your dog? Was it the house? Was it the car? Was it You had a a lot go bad in a very shorter period of time and and just being a human being. Sometimes we shut down and you can't you have to take care of you at some point. And honestly, I think that's what happened because you did everything you needed to do and you were doing everything right years ago. But the last 6 months or so since your mom got ill, you got overwhelmed, your car blew up, your dog died. I mean, it was just one thing after another after another after another. And as a human being, we can only handle so much. And there comes a point where you as human beings, we shut down. And if we can't get the help we need, you're going to take care of yourself first. And that's just that's human nature. It's normal. I'm not saying that anything that you were going through was wrong or or or the way you handled it was wrong. But what you need to do is look in the mirror and be honest with yourself and say yes this is what happened or whatever because I whatever you tell us okay we can prove otherwise because your son was not fed your son didn't have any liquids in his body he didn't have they did a tox toxicology you know blood work there was none of his meds were in his bloodstream >> I don't Okay. >> Mhm. >> I mean, he was covered in feces. He was dirty. He was hungry. He was thirsty. He was He wasn't taken care of. So, I will give you all the credit in the world up to I don't know what point that happened or what day that happened, but something happened where you shut down and you made the decision, I can't do it anymore. And until we can't help you, like he said, you're showing no remorse. When we go to court and the and the prosecutor talks to us and she asked, did she show any remorse? Was she honest about anything? Did she help you out at all? Did she explain why she did what she did? All those answers right now are no. >> I don't know what else to tell you. I just I just love my son. I love my son. never once said you didn't. I never once said you didn't love your son. But sometimes taking care of a special needs young man like JJ, okay, who has the mentality of like a 18-month-old, >> okay? But that wasn't going to change. He was never going to be anything. He was never going to get better. he was never going to be able to do anything better because of the situation that he was in. You even said that and he was never going to be able to take care of himself. He's always going to need somebody to be there for him. He's always going to need somebody to take care of him. He was never going to be able to live on his own, do any of those other things. You were always going to have to take care of him for the rest of your life and his life. >> And that becomes overwhelming. >> It becomes overwhelming. And it's okay. It's okay. People need help. >> Okay. So again, I'm not like coming at you judging you, okay? But what frustrates me is I don't care what you say. All right? We know what happened. And until you look in the mirror and you tell yourself I have to be honest with myself to get any help at all from us, any help from us. >> All right. You are being charged with two counts of murder. >> Okay? You're looking at 15 years to life. >> You may never see outside again. >> And the only way that will ever happen is if you're honest with us and we can go to the prosecutor and say, "Hey, this lady was just overwhelmed. She needed help. She didn't know where to go." Something. But you're not giving us anything to try to help you. And I can't promise you that we're can I mean, we could help a little. >> I'm not telling you you're not going to prison. What do you think William's going to say to us? >> I have no idea. >> We're going to find him. We're going to talk to him. I already told you that there's contradictions between the two of your statements with what he told us that night. >> And and that night, based on everything that I heard, I feel like you guys were a strong, loving couple. I didn't really think that you guys were not anything what you just talked about today. Mhm. >> I felt like you guys were known each other for a long time, had a relationship, went away from that relationship, got back into it again, and that you guys were a good couple, you know, and just based on what I heard, I didn't think that it was a horrible relationship. Nobody described that any other way. But he's going to get an opportunity to talk to us as well. >> And I would expect that if if he does talk to us that he's going to be either contradicting what you said or he's going to do everything he can to point the finger at you. >> And he already has. I mean, his first interview, he he pointed the finger. He put all the responsibility on you practically. >> I mean, he's going to try to save his butt if he can. >> Mhm. >> So, you need to do what you can to try to help yourself. >> I understand. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> And this is why I wanted to talk to you. I wanted to give you the opportunity. I thought after thinking about it and and going through it for all these months and being knowing that you're being charged with murder and that it's real now. >> It is >> okay >> that maybe you would, >> you know, just be honest with us and tell us what happened. And you're not. You're not. Not at all. >> Mhm. >> Way too many go holes and gaps in everything that you said for us to be able to say that she told us the truth about something. You're going to tell us you told us the truth. I'm telling you, that's not going to work. When we go to court, it's not going to work. Your attorney is going to ask you, >> "Did you feed him?" And you're going to say, "Yes, and he's going to look at a piece of paper that says this paper says you didn't." >> Mhm. >> How do you How do you What's the answer to that other than I fed him? >> I did. >> That's not the answer, though. Who's going to believe that? >> I don't think Aunt Diana believes that. I don't think your brother leaves. I don't think anybody that you call into this room that has that loves you and cares about you and is in your corner will be right there standing beside you through this whole thing. >> I don't think any one of those people walk into this room and after we tell them that >> they're not going to believe you either. >> I believe they will. >> I then they are just as delusional as what you are right now at this >> because you're you're you're gambling with your life. >> It's not even about them right now. It's about me and >> Well, you're right. It is about you >> and you're doing everything you can to make it about you and we are trying to do everything we can to be a voice for someone that can't sit here and talk to us and tell us those things. >> I respect that and I understand that >> and I want to be able to have sympathy for what you're going through and I do to an extent but I'm also sitting here looking at somebody that is sitting here telling us things that we know aren't true >> and they're lying to us which we expect. We expect people to lie to us. But at the same time, you know what people that have remorse do? They tell us the truth when it hurts the worst. >> Mhm. >> When they know that they're going to say words that come out of their mouth, that are going to make it look like they did something they shouldn't have, but because they have remorse and because they care about the person that they did something they wish they never did to them, their son, somebody they loved and cared about. >> That's what comes out in these rooms sometimes. I understand, >> but you're not there. You don't want to do that. And you're not going to have that opportunity to talk to us again cuz I don't think your attorney ever let you do that. But we're going to walk out of this room now. And the last thing that we're going to sit here and talk to each other, we're going to go talk about this and tell the prosecutor is that she had the opportunity to apologize in a setting like this to say, "I'm sorry for making mistakes. I'm sorry for doing what I did. I had all this going on and I screwed up. >> I was overwhelmed. and I'm sorry that my son is gone. >> Do you take responsibility in that? >> I do not. >> And that's where we're going to have the issue for the rest of this time while this is going on. Because if you don't take the responsibility in that, who's to blame? Whose fault is it that he didn't eat? >> I don't understand that. >> Here's something you have to understand. Mhm. >> You're sorry that your son's gone, but it was your responsibility to take care of him. >> Understand that. >> And the reasons that he died were the exact same reasons or responsibilities that you had to take care of him. >> It was your responsibility to make sure he was fed. It was your responsibility to make sure he was taken care of. It was your responsibility to make sure that he was taking his meds. It was your responsibility to make sure he was cleaned up and taken, you know, in good condition. Mhm. >> Every single one of those things that I mentioned were weren't being accomplished. And it all falls back on you because you are the guardian. They gave you the responsibility. They felt like you were worthy of that responsibility for that human being. >> I understand that. >> Okay. >> But do you you hear you're nodding? It's you you say you understand that. But do you understand that we want you to realize that you're not taking responsibility for any of this? That you you think that what you did was perfectly fine. You're sorry that he died, but I don't really believe that you are at this point. I I'm I'm having a hard time understanding you saying, "I understand when it was your responsibility to do these things. It was your responsibility to feed him, to clean him, to love him, to hold him. >> Not to put him in a room on a cot that's covered in feces with restraints in a locked door in a room that is cold as can be, the coldest room in your entire house with chemicals and detergents and nothing there for him to do other than lay on that cup. He could have done anything else. He could have sat in that room upstairs with you. >> He does. >> You're worried about not being able to take care of him and handle him. I'm gonna tell you this right now. He was skin and bones. You could have done anything you needed to do to control him physically. He was not that powerful. He was not that strong. Don't shake your head because he's not that strong. What do you mean? >> He's not that strong. You're stronger than him. >> You're bigger than him. >> He probably could even stand. >> He barely if he could stand up. >> How do I need to do anything to What? What do you mean? >> Because you said when he had seizures and all these things, he was violent. He had to do that. I understand the seizures, but >> Yeah. >> What about all the other times? Do you understand when people have seizures that they're more lethargic? >> They're they're lethargic when they come out of their seizure. They're very lethargic. >> Okay. Well, I want you all to take look at this. I had to call 911 a couple of years ago. >> We know. >> And they came out and the first thing that they said, "Did he hurt you all?" Because he was very, very aggressive. And that's how he was. He was very aggressive. >> Wait, when >> when he had a seizure? >> When he had a seizure. Mhm. >> Okay. How often did he have these seizures? >> He was having them very frequently. >> And is that because he wasn't getting he wasn't getting his medication? >> No, I think it was No, he was getting his medication. >> I mean, if he was getting his medication, I would believe if I mean he's taking medication to stop the seizures >> when again years ago when he was taken care of very well, >> seizures wasn't an issue. Um what what from what I understand with Dr. Shapiro, a lot of kids with autism end up having seizures quite frequently. JJ was just late doing it. >> Okay. >> How many seizures do you think he had at ABS? >> He didn't have any at ABS, but there were times that I had to call and he did have seizures and he would >> But he only had seizures he didn't have seizures at ABS. He didn't have seizures in the doctors. You had to call for whatever. And I get it. I can't explain why. I don't I can't explain what >> See, this is where this is where we're trying to figure things out. >> Okay. Because when we talk to you, you all your main focus is seizures, seizure, seizure, seizure. That's all you talk about is seizures. But when I talk to anybody that took care of him or had, you know, any type of like the schools is what I'm saying or the doctors and everything else. He like the seizures was in his medical history. You have to >> but they never had any issues with him. >> He didn't get diagnosed with seizures until co when he was at home when he was attending ABS. The first part he did not have seizures. >> Okay. Well, ABS is telling me something different because he didn't he didn't go he he went back to ABS for a very short period of time after >> CO, >> but they say yes, >> seizures was in his medical history, >> but they never had an issue with seizures. He wasn't there that long. Um, >> what do you mean? He was there for years. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. When he went back, when he was formally diagnosed after you, >> correct? >> Okay. You're right. He was. And again, I could tell you as much about I think I could tell you as much about JJ as you could tell me about JJ because I have done nothing but investigate this for the last two and a half months. >> I know everything about JJ. I know everything about you, your family, everything else. Mhm. >> So that's why I'm s I am frustrated. I want to give you the opportunity to do the right thing, but you keep doubling down >> and and you refuse to tell us the truth because we know the truth. Okay? That's why there there's times where we come in these rooms and we don't know exactly what happened and we need to try to work that out of the person. >> I know exactly what happened. >> Okay. But I wanted to give you an opportunity to to show some remorse to help us, you know, understand why JJ died. JJ was a healthy young man >> besides his autism. I mean, he didn't, when I say healthy young man, he didn't have heart disease. He didn't have diabetes. He didn't have high blood pressure. He didn't have any of those things that usually kill a human being. >> Absolutely correct. >> So, he didn't just die. He He died because he was there was a chronic neglect of his well-being. >> He suffered and suffered and suffered. >> This wall's gray, right? >> Yeah. >> Yes. You're telling me every time I say this wall is gray, you're basically saying no to everything that we're telling you. That can't be true. I'm telling you this wall is gray and you're saying no, it's black. I'm telling you it's gray. You're saying no. That's what's going on right now. You're saying you gave us meds. There's no indications that he was given. >> I just given him his medication and and Caesar medication nasally from his nasal passage. I just did that. I don't understand. >> Did you do it after he was he'd already passed? >> No. He had a seizure. He couldn't have had a seizure after he passed. >> Then why isn't it his >> I don't understand that. I don't understand that. I don't I don't and I don't I just don't I don't understand why his medication wasn't in his system. >> Can we work on a little bit of logic at this point? Can we go with logic? What's logical at this point? I mean, I think that's kind of where we are. We're trying to come up with reasonable logic as to why things are happening while you're coming up with just completely irrational logic to say you don't know why. But the answer is you do know why. >> I don't. People don't People starve because they're not fed. That's the logical conclusion, right? People that are supposed to take meds, but they're not in their system. It's because they weren't getting their meds. That's logical. You can't make a phone call unless you put the number in and press send. That's logical. Why Why are we not talking about what the logical conclusion is for how and why JJ died? Why are we just sitting here talking about you saying, "I don't understand that. I understand, but I don't understand. I can't believe it. I don't understand why no one's going to believe this. They're going to be with me. Why are we not >> I didn't say they would believe with me. I did not say that. >> We just when I just asked you about your family saying that they wouldn't they >> asked me and I said I would think they would, but that's not the point at this point. The point is um I did everything that I possibly could. I did not starve my son. Yes, I was overwhelmed very much. So, a lot of things happened, but I did not just leave him in a room and ignore him. That has never happened. Never. >> Logic would suggest otherwise at this point. >> Okay. Well, I'm telling you that it didn't happen that way, sir. I'm telling you about my life. >> What happened? Why did JJ die? I don't I didn't until you all told me. I would not have imagined. >> Forget about what we told you. >> Okay. >> JJ was in your care. >> Mhm. >> Why did JJ die? Like I told you, JJ was a healthy young man. >> He didn't have any, you know, diseases that would kill him. >> Mhm. >> Why did JJ die under your care? >> I don't know. I wouldn't have known. I >> I thought I was doing everything. >> You know why you don't know? >> It's because you didn't do what you were supposed to do. You didn't take care of him. No, >> you stopped. Something happened and you stopped, which is what we're telling you. >> Tell us when that happened. Tell us what you when that started. Tell us when things got to the point where you couldn't stop where you couldn't keep taking care of him. Was it a plan? Did you have a reason? Did William come up with something and say, "Hey, we can't do this anymore in order for us to live our lives. We can't have JJ. He's going to be like this forever." >> Absolutely not. or that he didn't want him. >> Did Did he force you to make a choice? I mean, [laughter] see, these are things, you know, that could have easily happened and it happens every day in this world. >> No. No. That was never and I if No. And if he ever tried to make that choice, it always be JJ. >> Okay. >> It would always be JJ. >> And you again, I'm not going to take away what you did for the last 16 years for JJ. 15 and a half years. actually 16 years because he just turned 17 a few days ago. >> Yes, he did. >> So, you did a wonderful job taking care of a very highly needs person that he needed someone there 24 hours a day. >> It's taxing. I get it. I understand. >> But I I don't Again, you can say what you want to. All right. But somewhere down the line, and I I'm going to ask you again, there was a point where you couldn't do it anymore. Not that you didn't want to, not that you didn't love him, not that you didn't want the best for him, but just mentally and physically because of your illnesses, you could not take care of him. It may not even been a choice, but there was a point where you stopped. I pushed on. I did not intentionally ever try to stop. I would push myself to make sure that he was okay. >> He's He wasn't. He was malnutritioned. He was severely underweight. >> Okay. He his his muscles were like his his body had eaten his muscles away to try to survive. >> Do you understand that? Those are things that we know for a fact. >> His body was eating his muscles to try to survive because he didn't have the appropriate nutrients in his body to survive because he was not being fed. And he couldn't say, "Feed me." He couldn't say >> he could >> well not >> not enough to the point where you or William were taking care of him. He was in a room that nobody on this planet would think it was is reasonable for a child to be in anyone. >> He wouldn't stay in the room. He would be with me during the day. He would be with me. Do you understand? >> He died in that room. >> I understand that >> he died in that room. He shouldn't have been in that room ever. >> I'm going to tell you that. You shouldn't have been in that room ever. >> That could be it. I thought I was doing what the best thing for him as far as his warm >> the room right next to there that had a bed that had >> that was William's room and it was disgusting. >> It doesn't matter whose room it is. You're an adult. He's an adult. He's a child. He's special needs. He needed help. He needed he needed things that you guys also needed. But he needed them more. And you're right. You did everything you could. He needed them more. >> But at some point more was for you and not him. No, there was never more for me. Never. Never. That's not true. >> Well, I will tell you that you're you've been eating, you've been drinking, you've been sleeping in a bed, you've been warm, you've been in >> I have not really >> I mean, other than I get I guess you're cold here, but again, >> no at home. I've been cold. >> You had two refrigerators with lots of food. >> That was not They were not my refrigerators. >> Well, the one was >> the one. Again, it is not logical for you to sit here and say that you did not you were not allowed to eat that food that was in there. >> And in my big refrigerator, a lot of that food was Williams. He had both refriger that were downstairs and he would put his food in my refrigerator. Do you all understand that? I >> understand. So, William didn't want to give >> No. >> food to >> No. >> to JJ either. >> He did not. >> Okay. And did he convince you to not feed JJ at any point? >> Absolutely not. Did how did JJ not eat? >> I don't understand that. >> I thought that maybe with his attitude change he was depressed, but I didn't think that he wasn't eating. >> His attitude change was probably depression from the standpoint of why am I not getting fed? Why am I not getting food and water? Why am somebody not taking care of me? Why am I >> just giving him depressed? >> No, you did. >> I did. Okay. >> You did. >> I did. >> He didn't eat it. >> And you didn't see him eat it. And you're relying on William now at this point who after we've sat here and talked to you that your mom was 30% of the help, but really for transportation. William's no help. >> But you're you're depending on him to help. >> And now now you're pointing the finger at everybody else but you. >> I'm not pointing the finger at my mother. Why did you say your mom took care of him? >> I think your mom was way more than 30% of the of the of the needs that he he she took care of him. >> What if I told you that your mom spoke to one of the ladies at ABS and told her told them that they that she was very concerned about JJ's well-being after if something ever happened to her? >> You think that's could be a true statement? >> No. My mother had dementia. So >> I don't believe that she could say that >> she had dementia at the end. Maybe. >> No. >> I mean, she couldn't have had dementia when she was driving JJ around, taking him to school. >> As I look back. >> Correct. >> No, that is very incorrect. Okay. Until >> That's a scary thought that you didn't drive. I would see things, but I didn't know. >> I didn't know. And then CO hit and it was best for us to stay at home. >> Okay. Well, we've given you every opportunity >> to tell us what happened. Um, and I will tell you, it's my opinion, and I think Lieutenant Wiltshire probably feels the same way. You're just doubling down um on the lies, and you're trying to protect yourself, but in essence, I think what you're going to do is end up hurting yourself even more. >> I'm really not trying to protect myself. I'm trying to give you >> Here's what's going to happen. If we go to court, >> okay? If we go to court and you sit in courtroom and you say, "No, I fed him. I did this. I did that. Everything else and and we show that he had no food in his belly." You're going to look like a fool in court. >> No one's going to believe that. >> They're going to have a hard time doing that as well. >> Yeah. I can't believe that attorney would even do that. I mean, he may suggest you take a plea and be done with it. I mean, because I don't know. Again, the the evidence, the facts, the things that you can't argue are overwhelming in this case. >> Overwhelming. >> Mhm. So, you can get on the stand and say, "I fed him. I took care of him." And everything else, but then we're going to get on the stand and say, "Well, he starved to death. He had no food. He had no fluids in his body. He didn't have, you know, his body was eating his muscles. He was extremely malnutritioned. He was extremely underweight. I mean, I could go on and on and on. He probably at the very end couldn't even stand up because he was so weak. So, for you to say that he came upstairs and he was with you and everything else couldn't be true. >> It is true. He came upstairs the night before when he had the seizure. He walked up the steps. He walked up the steps and I said, "Jay, you're going to fall." >> Now, you I'm going to stop you because in your first Okay, you did stop him. You Now, I will say in your first interview, you said he attempted to come upstairs and you stopped him and you took him back down and you put him to bed. >> Correct. >> And he went to bed around 9:30. >> That's right. >> And then you didn't check on him again until 11:00. >> Mhm. >> That's correct. If you're so concerned about him and he's having all these seizures and everything else, I don't know how you could wait till 11:00 a.m. to go check on him anyway. >> Okay, I understand. >> But again, again, I'll be honest with you. >> Can I Can [clears throat] I finish what I was going to say? I was very sick. So, I depended on William to check on him. >> So, that's different than what you told us last time. That is a change in your story. You never mentioned anything about you being sick, vomiting violently, or anything else. the first time that you >> said I had three autoimmune diseases. I said that, but I didn't go into detail about how sick I was. >> But none of these affect your brain to the point where you can't do theological things like take care of a child that needs you. >> They're physical ailments that that affect you. >> That's not necessarily true. >> No. >> So, if that's the case, then we're never going to be able to discuss logic at this point if you're telling me that's that's the issue. So, it's either all you or it's it's not you. So, you can't say you did everything, but then say you didn't do anything. You can't say William did it because he's not here >> and claim that you made all the that everything that he did nothing. He wasn't part of it. I'm saying that I gave and did everything I could for my son and that I never tried to give up or never would let him starve or set him in a room and let him sit down with feces and have a dog collar and all these things. I'm saying that the reason why he was in that room, yes, things have been crazy. William said, "We'll put him in that room. It's colder upstairs in your room. I have an electric blanket that heats me up. I was afraid to put an electric blanket on JJ. Just my feeder." We set him in there. The day before he had a seizure, I gave him some tomato soup. I did not give him any solids because I was afraid that if he had a seizure that something would get stuck. I gave him that. I gave him his emergency medicine and something to drink. I did do that. We sat him down there. He liked the cot. That was his [snorts] for some reason his favorite thing. Was it stupid to have the the things? Probably. But after a seizure, when he had a seizure, JJ would get very strong and hit and bite and scratch. >> Understand that. >> Let me finish. Um, that night he started walking upstairs. I took him back down the steps and put him back to sleep because I was afraid that if he got to the top level of the steps, he would fall and hurt himself. Would I intentionally hurt or starve my son? Never. Never. Am I sad about his death? I feel like my soul has been ripped out of my chest. For you to insinuate that I show no remorse is ridiculous. I am grieving. I've been grieving for a long time. I've tried to cooperate a lot with you all. When I saw him downstairs, my mind was not right. I thought I could wake my son back up. I thought I could wake him back up. I called for William. I screamed. He was just casually in the van. I'm sad that he's gone. That's what I'm remorseful for. I wish I could hug my son again. I wish this never happened. But me being a person that just not taking care of my son or my responsibilities, I've never been that way. Am I tired? Absolutely. Did I lose my mother? Absolutely. Did I care for my mother? Absolutely. Did I put a lot into her as well? Absolutely. But for me to withhold food, it's never been like that. anything that he's wanted. If I can't eat, he can eat. Do you think that you're saying you're insinuated that I put stuff on myself? I have it. Everything that I've done in my life has been about him. Couldn't get the electricity. William wasn't helping. Family could not help me. They were kind of helping during the process of my mom being buried. My point was to go to people working cooperatively and get help and call them as much as I could. They were like, "Electricians are hard to find. We're sorry." I went to my father. Didn't seem like he could help. There was nobody that could help us. What I did discover when I cleaned the downstairs cuz I wondered why our electricity would go out at night, which it did. Great that you all were there. You got adequate light and electricity. My mother's room didn't really have light. The hallway doesn't have light. The bathroom, the main bathroom, the light goes on and off. So, I don't understand. JJ's room doesn't have any power at all. I don't understand how you all got electricity, but somehow magically you did. In the middle of the night, the heat goes out. But what I didn't know was that William was downstairs with two heaters that would pull. According to the people from Duke Energy, they said that we need a new wiring system that ours was old. Try not to have too many things on at once because if you do, you'll have to go down to the fuse box. You can't, you know, we bought a little burner. We can't use the stove. The refrigerator works. There's no hot water. There's no hot water. I have to boil water. Have to sit in the tub and pour the water over you. If you all looked, you see all of the men's products. Those are not Williams. Those are the products that I buy for JJ. deodorants, cologn, Suave body wash, Axe body wash, his toothbrushes, my mom's toothbrushes. That's the type of parent that I've been. I've advocated wholeheartedly for my son. And I understand that this this gentleman said, Detective K, uh, hopefully I'm pronounced that correctly previously. Yes, it got overwhelming, but I did not know in my mind. I thought by having this appointment with this new neurologist that I could get an opening as to maybe his medication, was it depression, what was going on with his weight loss? Is he growing? But my mother was his friend. They were friends. She was not his primary caregiver. In the many years that he was alive, my mother bought him a shirt. She didn't have to buy him anything that he wasn't her under her care. I bought all of his clothes. And if you all saw, he had tons of clothes, shoes, whatever. And my father would send things as well. I brushed his teeth. I gave him his medicine. I was very much of a stickler. He needs this vitamin. He needs that vitamin. He needs cod liver oil. He needs flax seed oil. Even when speaking with people at ABS, he had a special diet. Mom brought him there, but that was I mean my mother, but I was the one who bought the banana chips and the juice and everything else. Yes, he did have a history of PA, but he had outgrown that thanks to ABS. Putting him downstairs, I didn't think that maybe he would get into anything to drink because he hadn't done that. He wouldn't he can't he couldn't open a cap and drink. So, I figured it was safe. My main concern was him being in a heated environment is him being warm. I didn't care about me being cold. The living room is warm when you get there, but in the middle of the night because William would be pulling either being in the van or being downstairs, all of that goes off. The heat downstairs, I don't know how that works, sir. Maybe I've been tired. Maybe, you know, I can say that I didn't have everything together, but I had been planning on making things right little by little to make sure that both him and myself were okay. So, I put him in there. He had a seizure and I'm like, "Okay, we're just going to set him in here. It's warmer. He'll get it's cozier. He won't be somewhere where the heat will get cut off." At no time did I think he was just sitting in feces and just that's he doesn't even really bow movement on himself. No one has seen him with feces on it. I keep him very clean even when we don't have hot water. I've made a way. You take a pot, set him on the chair, take a cup, pour it over him. We have wipes all over the house. Tons of baby wipes. We get baby wipes. We clean him. He's got pull-ups everywhere. That's no problem. He'll either go get a pullup or I get a pull-up. I'll have them in my purse. They're in the car. They were in the car before it burned up. We have, you know, I've always done what I could to make sure that he was okay. Yes. Perhaps that day, that morning, I woke up. I was very sick. My last bit of Lord help me help was to call these places to see if my mom had something something so we could get this electricity fixed in my mind. We get the electricity fixed. We get all that stuff out because my mother was a hoarder. Get all that junk out, clean it up, get these people to help. Or maybe by then people working cooperatively would have called us. We get it together and live in a safe house. Or if they couldn't do it, sell the house as is. Get the stuff out and JJ and I go somewhere where it's neat and clean. It's always been about JJ. Always been about him. Always. It wasn't that I got so much into myself that I'm feeding myself or William or whatever and neglecting my son. He's big priority. He has his own plates. He has his own cups. He has his own food when I have it. Now, there has been some days where it's been a little leaner. My aunt has sent Instacarts. A lot of the food in refrigerator did not belong to me. William had a refrigerator downstairs. He would go and he would sometimes eat our food as well and his food. But at no point ever ever ever would I just go, "Oh, you know what? I'm overwhelmed. I can't do it. I'm not going to feed my son. I would feed him that particular day because I was sick and William was there and in a bag. I don't know if you guys saw these little baggies with these little applesauce cups and and breakfast bars which were his treats. Can you give him this for me, please? I'm not well. He said yes. And I believe that he would do that that day. I don't know why the medicine isn't coming up. I don't know why it's saying that he wasn't fed because I fed him. When we were at the hotel previously, William would wake up, he'd go to the breakfast bar for the continental breakfast. He'd come and get blueberry muffins and granola bars. That was a snacks that I didn't have to buy. So, at this little bitty confined area, JJ would go whenever he wanted to, but he'd have to have the bananas. I always had fresh fruit. He wasn't even a junk kid. You're not going to see if you see soft drinks. It's me. I don't even think he's ever had a soft drink before. He drinks water. He drinks juice. I cooked for him. I've done whatever I possibly could. I don't understand why he didn't have food in his system. That wasn't intentional. It wasn't like I was just so lax. No matter how sick I am, no matter how tired I am, he's been my first priority. He's been my first priority. I don't just sit him in there all day. He gets up, he comes up the steps, he eats, we do work. He's around me all day long and he's fine. We've got things on YouTube that he specifically likes. We have books that he has. There are things that he does. My aunt buys him books, his things he loves to bird watch. When the dog was alive, he grabbed his book, he get the dog, and they go out on deck, and that was their relaxing moment. We do work, he'd come back in, drink a little, eat something, and then go back outside. I've never intentionally or tried to ever neglect him. I thought I've been doing the best that I could, and I thought I was feeding my son. I thought I was caring for my son. At no point did I sit there and go, "Well, well, you know, I'm not going to feed him. I don't love him. I'm too tired." It's never been that. It's always been about him. It's always been about him. So, you all can say you went in there and there was great electricity. That's not how it works. I would wake up in the middle of the night, there would not be heat. Now, had I known that William was downstairs with two heaters pulling the heat or the car was sitting there pulling the heat, the electricity rather, not the heat. In hindsight, it would have been better. But to deal with him in his mouth, to deal with him in an argumentative state, it was too much. My best way was to move and get him out of our lives. And then JJ and myself could live a good life. A good life. I've worked hard to try to provide. I've worked hard to have a good life. No, we don't have very much. My mother had showed signs in and out. I didn't know it was dementia, but she would drive, but she showed signs that some things weren't right and it happened more so in CO. The first seizure happened at home during CO. So, when you guys interviewed the people at ABS initially, he never had it. We called Dr. Shapiro. He started having these grandma seizures, but everything was about him. My mother could barely care for herself at some points to be able to care for JJ. >> I I I hear everything that you're saying and I I believe that for the longest of times that's exactly what you did to take care of him. Just like Detective Ko said, >> I would never not take care. I would never withhold anything if I didn't eat. If I didn't have things, he had things. He had things. He had food there. It was there. >> It was there. It was You had plenty of food. That's not the issue. >> And Tamara, I'm going to tell you something. I I am I am I am going to be I'm not going to back down because I have worked on this too long. I've got too much information. I know too much of the facts to allow you to sit here and try to blow smoke to divert what we're focusing on. Okay? You You were a good mother. Okay? You brought him up and you took care of him for 15 and a half, 16 years, whatever it was. But there was a point recently where you stopped. Okay? Your body doesn't start to eat your muscles away, okay, just overnight. That is a long period of time. My dad had cancer and I watched him go from 260 lbs to 160 lbs because he wouldn't eat and his body, the only way his body could survive was to eat the muscle for energy. That's the only way. And that's exactly what happened to JJ. Over a period of time, his body ate his muscle. It ate its fat. It ate everything it could to try to survive. And it finally got to the point where it could survive no more because he was not being fed. He was not being taken care of. And you tell me, look at this room. This is the room that you put him in. Look at the clutter. Look how everything looks like. Mhm. >> I mean, you gave him you gave him a if the cop was there, you gave him a 2ft by 3 foot area to be able to stand in. >> It's worse than jail. >> I understand that. >> Okay. It was You could say it was the warmest area in the room. It was 56° when we were there. You can say you didn't lock them in the room, but the lock shows on the outside of the door. >> This lock was there when we bought this. >> No one. This [ __ ] has been there. >> You want to tell me that's his favorite [ __ ] Look at the condition of it. Take the poop stains away. >> And it's frayed. It's it's it's a mess. I understand. >> Okay. Look at this. This is what he was living in. >> This is what he was laying in. It's not one day. That's a lot. >> Look at his diaper. You can't say that you changed him. >> I did. >> Okay. Look at this. Look at it. Look at all the food in the refrigerator. There's no way a young man should ever die from starvation when you've got that much food in the refrigerator. >> That's not all of my food. But I did. >> Tamara, be a human being right now. Be a human being. act like you have a little bit of compassion to this young man. >> Can you please lower your voice a little bit? I am. >> You are not. You are not. You're doubling down. You're lying. You're not telling us the truth. And I'm done with it. >> Okay. >> If that's what you want to do, you do it. And good luck in court. >> JJ didn't deserve this. He did not. JJ was 100% dependent on you to take care of him. >> I understand that. I understand that. >> And if you were doing what you say you were doing, he wouldn't have been as malnutritioned as he was. >> And I'm sorry for it. I miss him. And I'm sorry. I don't >> I'm sure you miss him. I know you loved him. I'm not saying any of that. I will never say that you didn't love him. I will never say that you did your best. But I would absolutely get on the stand and testify that there came a day where you [singing] gave up >> or made me not even gave up. Just couldn't do it anymore. >> I never >> You just couldn't do it anymore. >> I never gave up. >> Well, I'm telling you the the uh evidence is different and I'm not going to waste your time or my time any further. Okay. >> I understand. >> We're going to We'll be right back. Mhm. >> You can. That's your bra. Don't put it on in here. Okay. >> No, >> we'll uh let a female officer come in. >> Mhm. They're >> [cough and clears throat] >> 62 complete. All right, great. Thanks. >> [snorts] >> brother said he was back. Excuse me. Can you turn the heat up a little bit in here for me, please? >> I don't know how to do that. I'll be honest with you. I'm sorry. >> Okay. Am I allowed to Can I stand up? I'm just trying to get some succulent. Get really cold. Try to warm up a little bit. >> [clears throat] >> doing all right. How are you? I'm doing well. >> How you doing? How you doing? >> Trying to warm up. How are you? >> I'm doing well. Okay. >> Yes. >> All right. Um I'm Mayor Catra. I'm lieutenant here at the police department. Um, is there anything else you want to say? I talked to the other two uh that were in here before. Anything else you want to go over? Anything like that? Just kind of giving you one last uh um I don't know, different change of pace, different face in here. >> Um, no, I appreciate you giving me that option. Um, I'm just kind of in shock right now. Um, I would never do anything to harm my son. I want to state that. And um, well, here here's what I'm here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give it one last uh, opportunity. That's my job, okay? Is to give you an opportunity to um, I don't know, help yourself out, if you will. Okay? Um, I've been a police officer a really long time. Um, I've been through numerous death investigations, homicide trials, all all of the all the above. Okay? And here's you've never been through this, okay? And here's how this is going to go, okay? We always we always prepare for the worst case scenario, okay? Worst case for us, meaning that this ultimately is a trial. Okay? and I fully appreciate and understand the fact that um this is absolutely everything for you. Okay, this is 100% all about you right now. Okay, [clears throat and cough] >> what the state is going to do, okay, is the state is going to prove their case. All right, well, how they do that is in front of a jury. Okay, and what the what they're going to do is they're going to say things like they're going to get up there and they're going to start laying out pictures. Okay, this is front of a jury. >> They're they're going to say, "Hey, look look look at this. Look, look at this. Look at look at this cot. Look at >> the conditions of this. Look, look at this >> that that's JJ in a diaper. >> They're going to look at, >> you know, these things. All of these things, okay? And they're going to pace them up. I mean, it it's going to be it's not going to be these little pictures. These are these are nothing. They're it's going to be big blown up on a big TV screen. It's going to be a grease board. I mean, it's it's going to be a presentation, okay? >> They're going to pull up, you know, things like the door lock. They're going to pull up things like the ambient temperature in the room, okay? >> They're going to pull up pictures of how big or how small the room is, >> how cluttered the room is, okay? >> And how there's just objects or furniture, washer, dryer, all that stuff that's in there. >> Um, and they're going to put all of this stuff up there. Okay. >> Yes. And and I mean they're the the the dog collar that I mean they're going to pull up the pictures of his of his neck. They're going to pull up the pictures of the ligature marks around his wrist. You know, they're going to pull up the pictures of of the restraints. They're going to put all of this stuff up there. >> Mhm. >> And then you know what they're going to do? They're then they're going to turn around. I mean the the food they're going to another thing they'll put up there too is the autopsy report. It's going to show the cause of death. It's going to show the manner of death. And the only thing that and then they're going to say, "Okay, um, now it's our job. It's police department job to investigate all this and talk to the people that may or may not have known about all this stuff." >> Understand? >> And the best thing that you're just so I understand the best response you're going to come up with is this is all a lie. You did the best you could to take care of him. You You did absolutely the best. And I just I I want you to be fully aware of that. And here's what I personally think is going on with you. [clears throat] I'm a parent myself, okay? And if this were to happen to one of my children, okay, the first thing you need to do is take responsibility for it yourself. I don't think you want to take responsibility for any of this stuff because you would have to say, "I am responsible for this." Let alone going into court and saying, "Hey, I was overwhelmed. I screwed up. I'm a human being, too. I've got my own issues, health issues. Um, you know, I was grieving over over my own the loss of my own mother, you know, and I'm going to tell you this is that judges, juries, um, we're all human beings. We're all people. And we look for a reason why things happen. Okay? >> Rather than just looking at someone and saying, "Hey, this person's an absolute monster." >> Okay? Mhm. >> And then I'm telling you right now from what they just told me, okay, looking at all these pictures, >> okay, >> yes, >> is that without an explanation >> Mhm. >> they're going to think you're a monster. >> Mhm. >> How in the world can one human being do this to another human being, especially one that they reared from since before they were one year old? >> Mhm. >> Can you explain any of this? >> I'm not a monster. I loved my son. There was some overwhelming circumstances. He was fed. Um, >> are you sorry any of this happened? >> I'm sorry that he's gone. >> Are you sorry about any of the circumstances? Are you sorry that this all this stuff even happened? This even came to be. >> Yes. >> Okay. Tell me about that. >> I'm sorry that this happened to him. Period. I wish he was here. I wish I could hug him. >> What about the things that led up to all this? >> I explained to the detectives that the restraints were there. I'd never used them just a few times when I gave him his medicine when he had seizures. He was always changed. He didn't lie around in feces. >> Okay. Here here's one. Go ahead. Finish that thought. >> Um I fed him. That was the warmest place that I thought at the time. And it was temporary. He could come upstairs. He could walk around. He could go outside. He wasn't locked in a room with just this. >> Here's here's what I'll tell you. I believe I believe what you're saying is true and accurate. Okay. Up to a certain point. He obviously thrived. I mean, he was 16 years old. Okay. So you've had him from let you had him 15 years. He obviously at some point in time that was true but at some point in time there was a turning point >> that that no longer became true and I'm guessing your mother passed when? >> November. >> Okay. So 3 4 months before all this happened. I'm going to guess that was a turning point in your life. It was a turning point in my life. I imagine it's a turning point in 99.9% of all people you know when their parents die. >> It's supposed to be that way. You're supposed to outlive your parents. >> Yeah. >> I imagine that was the same thing for you. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, let's work with that. Okay. So, it's a turning point in your life. Things >> very emotional. Okay. >> Am I allowed to make a phone call at any time? >> Well, let's get through this. Okay. >> Sure. >> So, um I imagine that was a turning point in your life. Okay. Mhm. >> Would it be a would it be a fair statement to say that things may have not went as smoothly after that as they did before that? >> Life has not been as smoothly when I passed for JJ as well. He was depressed. I was depressed. >> We lost a dog. >> On top of that, the car burned down. Life has been rough. The electricity wasn't adequate. We're running out of money. >> Yes. >> Okay. How else did things get what what else different happened with JJ? Like he they told me that he used to I guess spend the night in your room or your bed or upstairs or whatever. >> Did things get a little bit more stressful and that's when he transitioned downstairs? >> No, the electricity there wasn't adequate enough heat. That was the only place that at the time I thought he could get heat. Our electrical wiring is messed up. >> So, let me ask you this then. Okay, here's I know this may not be the the entire uh laundry room. >> Where's the heat source in that laundry room? >> Right here. >> That's it. Just that one little heater. >> Correct. That's all we could use. >> That's all you could use. Did When was the last time you checked on that night? I mean, if if it's 52° in there, it didn't get 52 degrees in 45 minutes. >> It was the morning when I It was earlier in the day before you all came. >> Okay. So, if it was whatever 5, six o'clock in the late afternoon, early evening when you called 911, when was the last time you checked? >> Earlier that day, I had William go downstairs first to check and feed him. And I thought that the heat was on. It's always warmer down there. I >> So, you didn't feed him soup. You had William check on him. >> I fed him soup at that time. No, at that time, applesauce and a breakfast bar >> on the on the day that you called 911. >> Correct. >> Okay. So, can you reconcile the fact that the coroner is going to say something exactly opposite of that? >> From your understand, from my understanding, from what you all said, >> I don't understand how. I don't understand why, but that's what's what you what they found. >> Well, I'm not going to beat a dead horse here, okay? Because it sounds to me like you're you're not accepting the fact that you're responsible for all of this, let alone let alone going to say you're you're sorry for all of this. I mean, this is all you. All of this, this is 100% you, okay? You're responsible for all this. He's yours to take care of. >> Understand? >> And you did not take care of him. You did not give him enough nourishment or attention to survive. >> And he died. >> That I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry. >> But I >> What are you sorry about? >> That he's gone. That he died. Are you sorry that this you were responsible for this and you're sorry that it happened and you were overwhelmed? >> Yes, I was overwhelmed. >> Would you would it be a fair statement to say because you're overwhelmed, some things were overlooked. >> I was sick that particular day and I depended on someone that maybe I shouldn't have depended on. That's fair to say. M. [clears throat] So, yes, that becomes part of the factor of being overwhelmed. Yes. Yes. Trying to get things together, trying to get electricity that particular day on the phone, trying to call OPERS to see if my mother had something left for us so I could get the electricity. Yes, I was overwhelmed. Absolutely overwhelmed. When the police came, they I don't know if they took pictures. There was food there cuz I was wanting him to eat later. >> There was food where? >> In the kitchen? >> On the kitchen counter. >> Okay. >> His favorite spaghetti O's and maybe a banana and something else. I don't know. But the spaghettiio I taken out of the microwave that was there for him to eat. I don't eat spaghetti. [sighs] So, I don't understand that part. Um, that there wasn't any food in his stomach. I don't >> his intestines. >> I don't understand that. >> I think you were overwhelmed for a lot longer than you think you were or you're leading on to me. And that doesn't happen overnight. I mean, he was malnourished and starved to death. That does not happen overnight. And you can see malnourished and starved to death. And then somebody then when somebody sees liatures, they see evidence of the liatures being used. They look at this. They look at that. How could any reasonable person come to any other conclusion? >> He would scratch himself. That has nothing to do with anything. That would be his habit of scratching. >> Okay. So you're you're what you're saying is all of this is self-inflicted. Okay. Even though like this is going to be consistent with this. Okay. Ridiculous. >> Well, that that's fine. I'm just making sure I understand here. Okay. >> And and and everybody that knows anybody that's epileptic that goes through seizures. You don't restrain them. That's when they get hurt. >> He got aggressive during that time. He would bite, kick, and to be able to get medication and and either rectally or nasally, I would have to do that. But I wasn't even using those. I should have cut them off. >> So, would aggressive behavior cause that? >> The defecation and the is aggressive behavior keep you from changing them for weeks? >> Oh my goodness. It was not. >> Sorry. >> What does that look like? And what's any person going to think when they see that? Most most adults, not all obviously, most adults have children or know people that have children have seen dirty diapers. >> I understand that was not weeks. He was changed every day. There were tons of pull-ups, tons of wipes. >> That's a boldfaced lie that he was changed every day. Look at that. You can't sit here and tell me. >> That day I did not. That day I did not I don't I did not even see that when I went downstairs. I didn't notice that he even defecated on himself. I did not. >> Well, what about the smell? There's no way you could walk in that small tiny room with this cot and not notice the smell. >> My son passed. I didn't notice it. I'm telling you, I didn't. >> Okay. Before he passed, you said you went down there, fed him soup there. >> I just didn't see I did not see that. I did not see that. He had a blanket [clears throat] over him. I did not see that he did that the night before. >> How do you have a blanket over him if you fed him soup? He's not going to lay down. He sat up and drank >> and you never smelled anything. You never noticed anything? >> And Okay. And you expect 12 jurors to believe that? [sighs] >> No reasonable person is going to believe any of what you just said. >> I don't understand why they wouldn't. I did not see any of that. >> Cuz that's not normal. >> I did not see any of that. I was sick. I did not see any of that. >> After I walk in the room and smell that, I'd get sick, too. I mean, I'm basically laying this all out to you like saying, "Hey, I screwed up. I'm going to take responsibility for my actions here." And you're just like, "Nope, not going to happen. >> Can I have a make a phone call, sir? I just um >> Do you want to be done here? >> I've spoken about this, you know, to go over it and over and over it. I don't know what else to say. you are. >> Okay. Well, I know what you could say is, "Hey, I screwed up. Absolutely. I screwed up. I need to take responsibility for my actions." That's what you could say. That would ring a note to a lot of people. They would be like, "Hey, we all have we all have issues in our lives. Okay? You had a bad one. Your mother had just passed. A lot was going on in your own personal life, and it's unfortunate, okay, that JJ died as a result of this." It is, okay, it's You're right. It is. But on the other end of it, too, is to say that, hey, this was just business as usual, which is what you've exactly explained here. This is business as usual, and I don't understand how in the world he died. That's what you've explained. That's the way I understand it. Is if that's not accurate, then please let me know. >> No, you've explained to me what happened. The detectives did. I don't understand for myself how he didn't have any food in his his system. That's the hard part for me. >> What about everything else? >> I didn't see any defecation. The scratches he did there. I've never put my dog's dog collar on his neck. That's ridiculous. I thought with him being in there that he could get heat. That's just ridiculous. son. So, I'm going to paraphrase here, okay? >> This is just business as usual. This is just a regular day in on Bell Green at whatever the address is up on Bell Green. And it just it's unfortunate that he died this day. >> If that's not accurate, please let me know. >> It's very It's very sad. It's very unfortunate. >> Is that accurate? >> Yes, >> that's accurate. Okay. All right. Well, it is what it I don't I don't know what you what were you getting at that I >> Hey, I screwed up. I was in a dark place at this point in time. I should have given him more attention than what I did. But you're saying that no, you did you did absolutely nothing wrong. And you're as pure as the driven snow. That's what you've explained to me. This is business as usual. It's just so absolutely nothing wrong when you came in there and fed him soup, which is entire line of of >> I I can't I can't I can't reconcile that. I mean, I can't imagine that you didn't know something. If he really ate soup, drank soup, whatever you want to call it, he had sat up. You can't have soup when you're laying down. And I can't understand how if he sat up like you said he did, how you wouldn't notice that. No reasonable person going to be like, "Yeah, I could see how she'd overlook that." Nobody's going to think that. >> See that? But >> how about, "I'm sorry, man. I [ __ ] up. I'm sorry." >> Use those words. >> No. Um I wouldn't say the f word, but um yeah. Um I'm sorry that he's gone. I'm sorry for the way that he's gone. I'm sorry if he suffered. I never left him unchanged. He was He had a seizure. I didn't want to move him. I was afraid if he walked up the steps, he would fall and hurt himself. I made an appointment the next day to be seen, even if it was virtually, with a neurologist with my concerns about his seizures and his health. I would never starve him. I was not putting him in there and putting the dog collar and locking him in there for any kind of whatever reason. That was the best thing at that time. The cot was easier. That was his favorite spot. No matter if it's raggedy or whatever, he that was his thing. He loved that cot. The cot was better because the bed he would fall off the bed and possibly hit his head during a seizure. So I just left that my responsibility. Yes, it was to take care of JJ. Yes, it was to make sure he was good. I thought that I was doing >> concrete floor there, isn't it? >> Yes. But it's still, you know, better than other than upstairs, man. I'm sitting here looking at all these pictures. I'm sitting looking at everything that's going going on here, everything that you have said, >> and I'm just still trying to wrap my head around the fact that >> I I mean, at no point in time are you saying that, you know, >> I think that >> I'm sorry for all of this. I'm sorry. I screwed up. I should have done better. I should have done JJ better. May God have mercy on my soul because I should have done better. And you're like, "Nope, business as usual. I didn't notice any of that stuff." say business as usual. That I did not say. I would say that I don't feel well. I'm very tired. >> Why do you think JJ felt? >> I understand. >> Look at that cot. How How old is that cot? That cot is literally ripped to shreds right there. >> That's his favorite cot. That I know it's not a >> You think that's his favorite room, too? I mean, the cold conf cells are bigger than that room. >> For momentarily, I was getting his the house together and cleaning the house. We hadn't been there that long. We had been in a hotel. We had been in a hotel. We had not been there that long. I'm I was trying to get the people there, someone to help me to get the electricity together, to get the house clean or to move. That was just temporary. That was the overwhelming part. Everything was about JJ. Does >> your bed look like that? >> No, I don't sleep on the cop, but it's not that nice. Is your bed full of feces and all that? >> Of course not. No. >> No. >> Is it warm upstairs in your bedroom? >> No. >> No, it's not. No. >> When the officers got there, there was like 74 or something like that. >> They said in the hallway. I >> In the hallway. >> Yeah. My room is cold. >> Oh, it's okay. Does he think it was like 50° cold? >> Probably. Yeah. >> What I didn't know is that William had two heaters. Excuse me. >> Go ahead. Sorry. >> No, go ahead. >> Two heaters. Go ahead. that William was using downstairs that was taking the was zapping the electricity. >> Okay. >> And so >> I get it's a buy level heat rises. >> No, that's not what I'm saying. We don't we we have electrical problems. It needed to be updated. The man at Duke said try not to have too much on at one time. I didn't realize that William was putting two heaters on where he was or I would have never had JJ downstairs. I would have kept him upstairs and put a heater on and we could have both been warm. I was cold. I slept in a room that was cold every single night. I have the little plugin in my wall. It does nothing. It just blows heat like a a a hair dryer in one area. My room is freezing. But I thought I was doing something to keep him warm with that heater. It just seemed to warm up. And that's the best heater. You couldn't even put on that many space heaters at once without everything going out. >> That's what I'm saying. >> That's Mark. All right. You got anything else you want to add or think or say or whatever? I want to say that I would never do anything to intentionally inflict any pain or suffering among my son. That I have done the very best that I possibly could. And I didn't know I didn't know. I don't know where my mind was, but I didn't know. I fed him. When the officers came, I had food for him. There was food in the house. They opened up the refrigerators. Those were not That wasn't all of my food. That was Williams. And he had a refrigerator downstairs. I have tried to do the best that I could in my life to treat people kindly and to not even have a traffic ticket. I've given everything to my mother and my son. I'm in a nightmare right now. I don't understand what happened. I don't understand what's going on. I'm not here to just continually go over. I'm a very sick person. You know, I never thought about calling someone and having him taken away. I thought that there was going to be a light at the end of the tunnel once I got electricity or once we sold the house and we could live a better life. We meaning Jeremiah and [clears throat] myself. I've always fought for that. I've always fought for that. I don't I can't explain that him having a pull-up that was like that. Had I gone downstairs and I seen that, I had no problem changing him. I had plenty of pull-ups. I had plenty of wipes. We didn't have hot water, but he would sit in the tub. I'd boil the water and we'd have to improvise on how to wash him up. If they look, he had all kinds of of cleaning products and body washes and toothpaste and all of that. Everything that I've done and every bit of my body has been to make sure that he was okay. I don't know what happened. I don't understand why they say they don't see any medication. He's had medication. He had seizure medication the night before nasally. I don't know why that's not coming up. I can't understand why there wasn't any food in his intestine. I don't know what to say. Now, as far as the responsibility of giving it to William when I was sick and saying, "Can you feed him?" I should have just dragged my behind even if I had to crawl after violently throwing up and tried to feed JJ. I was very, very sick. >> How How you say you were sick? Like, tell me about that. Like, how how sick were you? What do you mean? What do you mean? >> Three autoimmune diseases. >> Okay. I get it's a long term, but it's like you said violently throwing up. I mean, >> yeah, that's what happens. >> Okay. Right. >> And so I depended on him thinking that he was going to do that. >> Okay. >> But it's not like I just said, "Oh, I'm going to give up. I'm not going to feed JJ." It's never been that way. Or, I'm just going to set him down here and he's going to be locked up in this situation. It's never been like that. He comes upstairs, he reads, he watches YouTube, he goes to sit out on the deck, he watches birds, he does everything that I possibly could to make him happy. I was getting back to my life and making sure that he was getting back to his the best way that I could after caring for a very sick mother, after me being sick and trying to hold everything together. But I never in a million years would start half of the food that's there. I can't even eat those. That is food for him. So when the detective said, "You made sure you can eat." I There's days I can't even eat that food. Those are things for JJ, plates for JJ, shoes for JJ, clothes for JJ. Everything has been about him. What I don't have, he's had. >> What did your mother die of? >> A stroke. Well, she was >> Was she living with you or she? >> Yeah, she was living with me. No, I was her caregiver. She was septic. She was septic. She she died at the house or >> She died in the hospital. >> Okay. So I guess she got sick and went to the hospital and >> natural causes. >> Okay. >> And so I didn't starve her. Natural causes. And so everything that I did was to make sure that they were okay. Every single thing. It wasn't like I left him in there. I put a dog collar. I said, "Don't go here and just poop on yourself." Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I loved him and I still do and I will always love him. He'll always be my son. And for me to be accused like this, I know you all are only doing your job. I don't understand it. When I say that I don't understand why there wasn't any food, I don't. I don't. I don't. And I for me to also say, well, didn't you all when you came in see that there was food that was there that it got? As a matter of fact, I was so depressed that I left his food out for about a week wanting him to come back alive and eat the food. I was shocked when I discovered and saw him like that. I was shocked. I tried to rock him to sleep. I didn't know if there was feces or not. Probably had feces on my clothes. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, sir. >> All right. I don't know. I've been honest. It's I've been trying to give you all things. I've been trying to answer questions. You know, this is what I'm telling you. My truth, what I did, and how I was able to take care of him. I would never withhold any food from my son. Never. And the night before, >> listen, I don't know you. I've never met you before a day in my life. Okay. But from an outsider looking in, and this is the way the it's going to be presented in court, is that your mother was probably the primary caregiver for JJ and JJ survived about 3 months without her. >> And I how and obviously the end of it was him starving to death. >> I don't understand that because she was paralyzed for about 3 years. Mhm. Well, apparently somebody was was taking Well, maybe at her heard maybe at her direction you were taking care of him, but as soon as she got stopped giving you direction, you quit doing it. I don't know. >> No, sir. That's Listen, that's ridiculous. >> No, >> I mean, your explanation of it didn't hold water for me. >> I understand. >> And I don't know how it's going to hold water for any any other normal rational human being. >> Okay. >> But if that's what you want to hang your hat on, personally, I think I'd be like, "Hey, I messed up. I screwed up. Am I allowed to make a phone call and am I allowed to put on my bra? >> Um, >> my numbers are in there. >> Okay. All right. Well, I'm going to give this here to you in just a sec. Yeah, come on over here. >> And can I use the restroom? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the restroom's right there. >> And I usually have a cane. I don't know how. >> Okay, here's the Oh, restroom's right there. Here you go. Here you go. >> Just do me a favor. Shut the door. And if you want to wash your hands, paper towels are right here. De anywhere run out and take your details.