Here's the thing. And, and you got to answer this for me. Cuz you and Heather are the only two that can answer this. Um we know that JR was dead before the fire. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. To medical certainty. >> On March 21st, 2017, in Guilford, New York, Ernest Franklin II was brought in for questioning in connection with the death of his adoptive son, Jeffrey Franklin, who had died as a result of actions prior to a house fire that was set to conceal evidence. Spoiler details are in the video description, and the full results of all charges in the case are laid out at the end of the video. >> Okay. Um So I think I forgot to ask you this, too. So, you you go out to get the dogs, you feed the animals. I'm sorry, feed the animals, then you go out and feed the dogs. Um You said maybe that was an hour, right? >> The time you started [snorts] to the time you got back. >> So, you're thinking that was What time would you say that you came back to find the fire? >> 11:30, yes. Or 12, maybe. >> Okay. And you're pretty certain on on your time frame, then. Movie ended around 10:30. You did your chores, got the dogs. >> About an hour. Like I said, I don't carry a watch or anything, so. >> Yeah, I mean, you you you do your chores every night, so you know how how long it would take you anyway, right? >> Look, sometimes they don't It's a little longer, sometimes shorter. Right. I don't what time they you know, check. The llama goes are supposed to be pregnant, so I check them over. Make sure they're not having a kid or anything. >> Right. But you said you thought that night maybe a half hour or so. All right. And maybe a half hour to go get the dogs and back. I think you actually said it was more like 20 minutes. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So we'll say it was an hour. >> Mhm. >> Just to case you spent a little extra time on your animal chores. So, that puts it 11:30, quarter to 12:00 then. >> Right. >> Sounds right. >> Mhm. >> All right. And then you tried to get uh JR out. You said for 10 or 15 minutes. >> Mhm. >> So, that puts it around midnight, probably. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, at that point, Heather, we'll say she'd been gone maybe an hour and a half. Is that a long trip to Walmart for her? Just to pick up a few things? >> Yeah, about normal. >> About normal. Okay. So, >> might have been longer than that cuz I guess she did Easter shopping, too, so for the for the kids. >> Okay. Now, when you say the kid, you mean JR or the not the baby on the way? >> No, I think picked up Easter gifts for JR and then picked up some nursery stuff, some baby clothes and kids. >> Okay. Um >> I just took them in the house yesterday, so >> Got you. >> [snorts] >> for something. >> So, it's why it's fresh in your memory then. >> Yeah. Um >> So, when you came down the hill and didn't see the truck, you weren't surprised. >> Right. >> Okay. >> Well, she left before I started doing animals, so >> Right, but but I just what I'm saying is let's say from 10:30 to if you came back at you know, 11:30, quarter to 12:00, but we'll even say it was an hour and a half. >> Right. >> Um you weren't surprised after an hour and a half when you came down the hill that the truck wasn't there. >> No. >> Okay. Um So, the next you saw of Heather then after she left is when the deputies took you over to her. >> Mhm. >> During the fire. >> Yeah. >> And where was she then? >> She was at the bottom of the steps. >> Okay. Where'd you guys go from there? >> Uh like seen her for maybe 5 minutes and I sent her across the road. >> To uh to Brenda's? Gerald Rose Rose and Brenda's? >> No, she didn't need to be up there. >> Okay. And but you stayed up there then? >> I had to. >> Okay. >> No, it's really nothing it's all madness there. >> All right. Um >> Until you guys got there. >> No, I remember uh hearing from somebody something about the electric being turned off. >> Yep. >> Uh >> On the way back up, I turned the power off at uh one of the main panels. >> On the way back up from having the neighbor call 911? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And that was before you got up and around and saw the propane thing then? >> Right. >> Okay. I mean, is that something you were trained to do somewhere or what? >> Military. >> That there's a fire, go turn the power off? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> [snorts] >> Copy, I'm not familiar with this pond at all. >> The >> Where is >> You You can't see it from the road. >> Okay. >> Uh >> From 35 or from 8 >> Right. >> You said you got to the house or okay. >> You said you got to the house and >> that or in that area and the pond's beyond that? >> Um How do I explain this? From When you walk from our house, you walk through the woods, there's trails going to the house. >> Okay. >> Um there are mostly trails and a little bit of field you have to go through. >> Okay. >> Um if you go up 35, um you have the white house on the corner of 835. >> At You know the one that goes >> No, from all the time? >> Yep. Okay. >> Yep. >> Then yeah, you go past that, there's Um you There's another house up on the right. And then you have an old abandoned house a little bit farther up. All right, past the abandoned house, there's a long driveway that goes out back. And there's a pond right back of the tree line. In between the tree line and the house. >> And I'm thinking the other one is like a pond on 35 I can see from the road and the house behind it. It's not that one? >> Right off of Maine, pretty much. >> Maybe even >> Yeah, just up top of the hill through the rock cut up on top. There's a right almost I mean not beside the road, but you can see it from the road. There's a decent size pond and a house that sits behind it. That's the one you're talking about? Okay. >> So, if I brought up like a satellite picture you could tell me if that's definitely >> Why don't we do do that just so we're You got to love modern technology here. [snorts] >> Is it a big pond? >> A decent size. >> Is it Was it frozen or wet still water or >> Still water. >> Still water. >> Is that their go-to place? >> Vacation place? >> No, that's where the dogs go. >> Oh, okay. Do Do people live there full time? >> Uh not seasonal like that. I didn't know. I think though the new owner lives there now, but >> I know the previous owner was this summer time. >> Did the dogs go swimming? I didn't remember what you said. >> No. No. [snorts] I'd say he did have to. >> All right. So, nothing worse than a wet dog. >> Whoop. I get untangled here. >> Here's State Route 8. Here's County Road 35. In fact, that's I guess your place, right? So, if you go straight up over the hill >> Yep. Yep, it'd be that. >> Is that the pond we're talking about? >> Yep. >> And the house behind it here. Okay. So, that that's the one I was thinking of then. >> Yep. >> And you're saying it's about a 15-20 minute trip to get up and back? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> How How far do you make it? >> 2 ft. >> Oh, you did go to the pond? >> Yep. >> Oh, okay. >> So, there's there's >> Do you come around what would be I guess essentially the south end of the house? >> Whoops. Yeah. >> You walk up through this All right. And then you're saying when you came back or got this up came back to your place. So, here's the tree line. >> Mhm. There's your house. >> You came back in this area? >> Yeah. >> Kind of in the corner of that clearing. Okay. Got you. >> Yeah, [clears throat] it's the dog's favorite place to go in that pond. >> Well, I think anything with part lab in it is going to want to enter water. >> Okay, so uh you got interviewed by the fire investigators that morning, which is the 1st >> Um I think it was Wednesday morning. >> Do you remember uh investigator Whitten and >> I don't even know. >> and Jacklin? >> No, no. I know Jacklin, but I talked to him on the phone. >> Okay. So, when you when you're talking to them um you were pretty certain that you had you said you left the wood stove door open and you and then left the house and um When you leave the house as far as you know, Jeff still in bed or Jeff >> Um >> No reason to think he got up or anything, right? >> No. >> Okay. >> Um >> So, looking back at it now, you're still pretty sure you left the wood stove door open and get fire going. Okay. >> Um >> Now, one of the one of the issues that we got is kind of with the time frame of things, timeline. You know, you say you came back uh midnight at the latest and called 911. >> Um >> But, we know that the 911 didn't get called until after 1:00. >> No, okay. >> So, there's like an hour in there where you know, we're wondering what you might have been doing. >> Yeah, I don't know cuz I wasn't there when they made the call. >> Well, I I think we can agree they probably called right away now, right? >> I would imagine. >> Okay. They probably didn't wait an hour. >> Right. >> Okay. So, >> I see. I don't know if Rose called or she got Brenda up to call. Okay. I mean, so that that's you know, obviously one of the questions that we had. And the other thing we're wondering is uh with Heather, did she talk to you about her shopping trip at all? >> What she got, or >> Yeah, well, what she got, where she went. >> She went to Walmart. >> Did she say she went anywhere else? >> Mhm. >> Okay. Um she told us that she went to Walmart, and then to Price Chopper, then back to Walmart. >> Um I don't know. I don't keep track. >> Okay. Well, we we So, we went to Walmart, and we found out what she bought, and it's I mean, you can get all this stuff at Price Chopper in Sidney. How come Why why wouldn't you go there? You know what I mean? It's like 2 miles from her house, isn't it? >> I don't know. >> It's close. >> Right. >> Okay. And they're open 24 hours, right? >> Yep. >> The one in Sidney? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> [snorts] >> Didn't you wonder why she was going to Walmart when she could have just gone to Price Chopper at 10:30 at night? >> Walmart's a little bit bigger. They got stuff. >> Is it? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um Now, another thing we found out while looking into this is that Heather doesn't have a driver's license. And didn't normally drive. >> No. >> So, how come she drove that night? >> Uh she Like I said, she goes out randomly. That's what she would >> She would drive sometimes. >> Yeah. >> Even though she didn't have her valid driver's license. >> Okay. >> Um So, you know, that's that's a couple of Obviously, you can't answer the why Heather went to Walmart instead of Price Chopper. Um You know, that's just one of those things that when you when you see it, you're like, "What?" And then So, that's why we wanted to talk to you guys is to make sure that we had everything you know, right, and that we weren't not remembering something right that you told us, or whatever. And then just to I see if you could help explain a couple of these things that, you know, they're just they're different. That's all. And Like you find, it's you know, coincidences happen. So. >> I don't understand everything at all. >> So, let I I'm >> JR, I and I'm going to I'm going to use this term again, I'm sorry, nonverbal. Um he doesn't use words to communicate with you. He You guys use sign language. Um did you learn that because of you adopted him? You didn't know that prior to it. Uh how about Heather? Did she know it too prior to >> knew it. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, that's why we got him from from foster care. >> Okay. Uh was he your first foster child? >> Um we did respite for a couple boys beforehand. >> And what's that? Like a month or two at a time? >> No, it's a weekend, a week at a time or >> Oh, okay, much shorter term kind of kind of thing then. >> Uh we're not allowed to go down probation, so >> What's that? >> When we got in the foster care, um they said that we're supposed to do a year probation for the my >> Oh. >> my psych psych pass, so >> Okay, I see. Um and and but they let you do the respite. >> Yeah, during that. >> Yeah, that's kind of like a kind of a test driver, trial run or whatever. >> Yeah. >> See how things are going. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> But uh yeah, we did respite for a couple boys a few times and yeah, and then you know, we told them that my wife knew sign language. And we don't we never get any of that kids that are deaf. >> And yeah. I think we got certified and I can't remember September or October, but we knew at the beginning of November that we're getting >> Of what year? >> 2011. >> Okay. >> And it's like you're supposed to be on probation. Like, uh this is a weird situation, so >> So, they really needed somebody that knew sign language and >> Yeah. >> would take JR. >> Mhm. >> So, they shortened your probation basically for it. For it. okay. Um So, you got him about November of 2011? >> Yeah, we got him at the November. >> Okay. >> It was after our [clears throat] Thanksgiving. >> And how long did you foster him before you adopted him, or JR? >> Over a year. We started fighting for custody in 2012. [snorts] >> Fighting for custody, guys. You had to work hard to get it or not really? >> Oh, okay. It's a hard process. >> Yeah, got you. >> It was more of the We told social services and they're like, "Okay." And it was just, you know, the parents fighting the red tape, really. >> Yeah, got you. >> And social services like, "You know, but the parents don't sign off, you know, let's go to the judge and they'll they'll take the rights." >> Right. Did you have to go that route? Did you judge? >> No, they they did sign off. >> Yeah. All right. Where'd he come from, JR? >> Uh he came from Broome County, Binghamton. >> From Binghamton area? >> Yeah. >> Do you know the parents or did you met them or anything? >> We met them once. You know, they had to do a home visit. >> Got you. >> Um they never had them from birth. >> And he would have been how old when you guys got him? >> 11. [snorts] >> Okay. Uh so, after about a year you adopted him? >> Mhm. >> Um >> [snorts] >> What was the name of the adoption agency again or the agency you got him from? >> Um we got him from they came out of Broome County social services, but um the agency that we were did foster care through was Northeast. >> Northeast, that's our side of the county. Thanks. Um So, once you adopted JR, like is Northeast or DSS or anybody still involved or how's that work? >> No. If we have issues, social services social services will help us. >> Okay. >> And then they carried the the insurance and they also did the subsidy papers. The We got money from every month. >> So, his health insurance was still through Broome County Department of Social Services? >> Yep. >> Is that like Medicaid then? Okay. Um and you just said something about a stipend or something? >> They do a yearly stipend for him every month. >> Okay. Even after you adopted him? >> Yep. >> Okay. How much is that? >> Um anywhere from 1,800 to a little over 2,000, depending on how long the month are. We get so much a day. >> Got you. >> [snorts] >> And that So, that continues after the adoption? >> Yep. >> Oh, okay. Didn't know that, either. Um >> No, they They do that with what they call hard-to-place kids. >> I see. >> On an adoptable in their terms. >> Right. Well, obviously that's not true. You guys adopted him. So, yeah. >> Yep. >> Uh-huh. >> [snorts] >> So, [cough and clears throat] >> And no, we didn't do it for the money, either. >> Yeah, no. Uh take me through JR's like like disabilities. I mean, you said he's deaf. Um and he didn't communicate using words so much. >> Uh what else? >> Uh He has special needs. Um He has a low lower IQ level. >> Okay. >> [clears throat] >> But, you know, what the IQ test is and what he really was was two different things. But, he was a very smart kid. >> Right. >> Um you know, when we got him, he was going to public public school for for a while. But, after we adopted him, we pulled him out for safety reasons. But, I'll explain that. >> What do you mean by that? >> [snorts] >> I'm overprotective of him. >> Okay. >> Um I We had a phone call from a previous teacher saying that he was picked up and carried >> by like a staff member at school, you mean? >> Yeah. >> So, how did they like pick up and carry? >> How? I mean They grabbed him by the arms and carried him. >> Just like picked him up like that with his hands above his head. Okay, I see. And >> My wife was still on the phone and I went to the school and started banging on doors. >> To talk to somebody and get Jeff or JR out or >> Well, he was home by that time. But to either talk or hit someone. >> Home like that at school day had ended and he called him. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Well, that turned out to hit someone? >> No. Door was locked. >> Sounds like a good thing. >> Yeah. Well, I mean he was a non-violent kid. >> And so that was like his last day at public school then? >> Pretty close. We talked with social services and John Day Newberg and adoption about a month out and They you know, we all agreed to just have him home sick. >> So basically he was home sick for like a month. >> Yeah. >> It was just cuz you didn't want to go back to the school then? >> Yeah, I mean there there were a lot of safety other safety stuff there and there. Um he had a teacher for the deaf that stopped to talk to someone in a car and with his past. Um when he was with snap. I don't want to say his name for either. Um he Every other week they would change out his workers. So he just got used to getting into whoever's car. He had >> Oh, okay. >> He had no boundaries. Right. So without being human knowing you, he would get in your car and go somewhere. >> I see. So being around the people at public school, you were concerned about that too then. >> Yeah. >> I got you. Um Well, um Yeah, like I said, he was on the just slower side. Um he loved to read. Um We really didn't see >> No. >> He really had anything wrong with him. >> So, physically he was pretty good then? >> No, he was short. No, he did have some chronic lung issues. >> [snorts] >> He had a balloon in his heart. >> Had a balloon in his heart? A balloon? >> A balloon? Yeah, when he was a baby one of the medicals stuck. >> Working or something? >> Okay. >> So, they have a balloon in there. >> The Like it was still in there? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we had to go see the cardiologist for a couple of years. >> But it hadn't really been any problems. I mean, you hadn't noticed >> Uh one of the things where you know, the kid be like that rest of his life or you know, he could have a problem. >> But But you I mean, he could run around and >> Oh, yeah. >> play and do stuff and it wasn't an issue for him. >> No. >> He just had to check out it to make sure that he was doing >> all right. Okay. >> Um I mean, no pneumonia or anything like that recently? >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, as far as February 28th goes, he was a a pretty normal >> Oh, yeah. >> healthy kid. >> Yeah. >> I mean, normal for >> Right. >> for JR anyway. >> Right. Right. >> Um >> There was some little behavioral issues, so >> Which >> can be blamed on kid. >> Right. Like what kind? >> Uh his recent thing was peeing all over the walls and bed and >> Like all over the house? >> No, in his room. >> In his room. >> Yeah. >> Okay. He didn't do it elsewhere like the living room and stuff like that? >> No. He just didn't want to get up in the middle of the night and go to the bathroom. He'd go walk over to the bathroom. >> Okay. So, he'd just get go in his room and pee. >> But you said the bathroom was like right around the corner, right? >> right across the hall. >> But And that's something that started recently? >> Um it was in his past. When you were about it. >> Okay. Like so before you adopted him, you had this problem? >> Yeah. >> But then for however many years >> No, we >> it wasn't a problem with you guys? >> Well, we could never prove it cuz you know, we had an animal in it. >> Right. >> We don't like to say. >> Yeah. >> Cuz why you blaming it on him? >> Right. >> Could be a cat or dog. >> Okay. But recently must be you figured out it was him. >> Yeah, we got him. About when was that would you say? I think it's been the big issue since like October November time frame. >> Okay. >> Yeah, you know, it be >> Uh last year? >> Yeah, then you know came and gone then. So sometimes then it'll last 2 months and then he'll start doing it again then. >> Anytime [snorts] of the day or night? >> Just night. >> Night? >> Yeah. >> So you say you caught him. I mean how you catch him? >> Well, we have a a motion detector in there. A little activator that tell when he's up. >> Does something plugs into a wall outlet there or >> No, batteries. Just like a driveway motion detector >> So you just set it on the desk or anything in his room then? >> Yeah. >> And if he was moving around it would go off. So what was it like something that went off in the room like you hear it going off too? >> No. It was just like a baby monitor. >> See, could you see your hair? >> Huh? >> Did Did was the monitor audio or uh video? >> Audio. >> Okay. >> Yeah. All it is is you know, if you walk by it just dings. >> Got you. So it like it would ding in whatever room you guys are in with the other >> Yeah, we just kept it in kept the main thing in our room this stuff. >> I see. Do you remember about when this was that you caught him? For sure? >> About about that time frame October November. >> Okay. >> But it you know, it came with his papers, you know, he comes from a rough past. >> Right. But so this time when you when you caught him >> You know, he was out there peeing off the bed. >> It dings and you go in and you and you see him peeing off the bed. >> Off the >> top of the >> top bunk. >> Yeah. >> He didn't stand on it though, right? >> No. >> So like you were sitting on the edge of the bed just peeing >> Kneeling. >> Took the >> peeing off onto the floor. >> Yeah. >> Or wherever. Okay. So what do you get What would you guys do to address that? Like how are you disciplining for that? >> Uh it's work for him. >> You spank a kid like that >> No. >> No. I mean I don't know. >> Yeah, like mostly that's explaining to him if he got to go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom. >> He knows where it is. >> And just a lot of instructional time. >> Okay. Did you have to remind him to like go to the bathroom? >> Uh when we first got him for first >> Probably a year. >> When he was in public school, we had to remind him. >> But that pretty well sorted itself out then. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't at the point, you know, the last several months where you'd have to say, "Come on, JR, let's go to the bathroom." >> No. >> He If it wasn't night time, he would take care of that on his own and take care of himself. >> Yeah, during the day, all the time. >> Unless he wanted to get out of chores, then he would pee or poop and >> Just wherever? >> Yeah, in the wall of his pants. >> Right, but I mean it it didn't matter what room he was in, he would do that. Like what kind of chores >> Uh >> You're talking about getting out of He wanted to get out of what? >> Anything. Uh we're outside working, you know, doing water or something, then he would either poop or pee, you know. >> Is that a pretty new development, too? That was kind of the whole time. >> Yeah. >> He would do something like that. All right. Whose job was it to clean him up then? >> Uh his. He mopped it up. >> Okay. >> You know, if he poops the bed, he cleans it. >> Okay. >> you. What about the laundry part? >> He does his own laundry. >> Did that, too? >> Mhm. >> So, if he if he pooped in his pants or peed in his pants or whatever, he had to clean himself up and put the laundry out so that >> Yep. >> Okay. >> Yep. You know, he did dishes. Swept and mopped the floors. Stuff you'd have your Anybody in here would have been doing, yeah. And so, I mean, you'd say you would try to talk to him to get him to stop doing that and sounds like it wasn't working, though. >> No. He's a special needs, so you know, it's one of those things. You fight your battles. >> All right. Um who Who's the disciplinarian, you or Heather? >> Uh mostly me. >> Mostly you. So, it's kind of the the typical stereotypical, you know, the dad takes care of the discipline thing. >> Yeah. >> Um Now, you were taking classes at BOCES or something, right? >> Yeah. >> Is that every day? >> Yeah. Um It's been a while. Just got a lot of stuff going on. >> It was a while before prior to the fire, meaning before you got to class? >> Yeah. >> Like how a few days a week, a month? >> Uh a month. About a month. >> So, so basically all of February you hadn't been going to Okay. Um But still, I mean, before that it kind of had her stuck home several hours a day with JR dealing with his his behavior issues. Right. Um and you you know, you were getting out and away from it, so >> Yeah, that's one of the reasons why she got out at night, just to take a break. >> Mhm. >> How often was he urinating in the house? Like in a given day or a week? Every day? >> No, I mean, maybe every couple nights or if it wasn't >> More than once a night? >> No. >> When he did go? >> Just once. >> Just once. >> Yeah. But you know, like I said, he came in his past. And we had put the record on him. And all grandmothers, boyfriends, that's where most of the sexual and physical assault came from abuse. >> Got you. And his his doctors or psychiatrists or anything, they think that's what's what caused the >> Yeah. >> the urinating thing was because of his prior abuse? >> Yeah. >> All right. >> She had a lot to deal with that with him. >> No, yeah. >> Trying to deal with all that. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Especially Heather, when you get your break every day and her not so much and >> Mhm. >> now she's pregnant. >> Mhm. >> Lot to deal with for her. >> Yeah, Heather's still a lot of worries there. The last one miscarried, so. >> How far along when when that happened? >> Uh We found out >> Uh >> I think 9 weeks. >> So early on, I mean you made it you had passed that point at this point. >> Yeah. >> So far things are going good. >> So far. >> Yeah. Still pretty stressful though, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. How did the urinating did it did it bother her or did it put a stress on the baby or anything? >> No. Has anybody else? >> Yeah. >> Things that that we didn't understand cuz the bathroom was right there. >> Right. >> Yeah. But see, when we got him, he actually came in diapers. >> Okay. >> And he ate with his hands. >> And that was at 10 or 11 years old, is that? >> 11. >> Mhm. And you considered putting him back in diapers or not? >> No. >> No. Good for you. >> No, he's 16. I wasn't going to backtrack on that. >> Right. Now, you say that his IQ was low, but he was he was smart like what grade level would you say is You guys are home schooled, right? So, you still call it homework, but what grade level was the school working at? >> It was anywhere from second to fourth grade. >> So, he could read a little and comprehend, and >> yeah. He loved to read. >> Writing a a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Getting some sentences written together. >> Okay. >> See, you know, when we got him, he couldn't even form a sentence. He couldn't He barely could sign himself. >> Right. >> But, you know, the work the work we put into him >> Yeah. >> it was a lot different a lot different of a kid. >> Good. But, it must have been kind of frustrating then kind of backsliding a little bit with the the peeing all over his room and stuff. >> Yeah. >> More for you or more for Heather, would you say? >> Um both. >> Both. >> I mean, there's something that Heather had to wrap her head around. >> Right. Yeah, a lot to deal with. Um and you said that uh Northeast Parenting, did I get that right? >> Yeah. >> Um they had you on this probation thing. >> Yeah. >> When you first joined. And you said it was something to do with your psychological from before. >> No, I had I tried to commit suicide. >> When was that? >> 2009, July 2009. >> So, just before you got JR, then. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Okay. Um How What was that about? Like >> Uh flashback. Uh We were coming back from Virginia, and a firework went off on the 4th. And sent me in a tailspin. >> So, this happened in Virginia or somewhere, or >> On the way back from there from Virginia, and then when we got home, and it just all downward spiral. >> That's when the attempt was when you got back home. What did you do? How'd you attempt? >> Uh I took a bottle of an antidepressant. >> Is there like a common name for that? I don't know what that is. >> Uh I don't know what the generic name is, but it's uh >> Is it supposed to help you with depression or something? >> Uh, helps with depression, helps with the neurological pain. >> Okay. >> And taking an anhydrous it's deadly. >> Obviously you're here because you got to the doctor and then How did How did that get discovered? Did you tell somebody? >> My Heather was seeing me do it. >> She saw you do it. Okay, and then she must have called called for an ambulance or whatever. >> Yeah. >> Got you. Any firearm or anything involved? >> No. >> You got any jack guns in the house? >> Mhm. Not that I know. >> Oh, not in the house though. Okay. >> [snorts] >> So, I'm assuming you went to the hospital and got treated for the for taking too many pills. >> Yeah, I was in ICU for 10 days or so. >> That long? >> Yeah. >> A while. Okay. >> I wouldn't have been able to make it that night. >> Right. >> One of the doctors. >> Um, so you said flashbacks. >> Yeah. >> I know you were in the army. >> Yeah. >> About when? >> Uh, I joined in 2001 and got out in 2003. >> So, a couple of years then. Okay. What did you do in the army? >> I was in communications. Radio operator. >> It's okay. And where did you serve? >> I was stationed in Germany, went to Iraq and Afghanistan. Both. >> Um And you got out in 2003, you said. >> Mhm. >> Was that to be like Bear with me cuz I don't know how this works, but did you you basically got out from Afghanistan and came right home? >> I went to [snorts] Afghanistan first, then right to then Iraq, then I got hurt, then I got a medical discharge. >> Okay. Um So, you got hurt in Iraq. What happened there? >> IED. >> Were you in a Humvee or you walking down the road and it blew up or >> No, Humvee in front of us hit hit it and we hit them. That shook my back and stuff up. >> Okay. Um, and that's why you're going to see the pain management be and and the same injury. >> Yeah. >> Still dealing with it then? >> Yeah. Uh I tried going through the VA and it just wasn't getting anywhere. So, that's why I started seeing outside care. >> And then like the VA pays for it or something? Is that how that works? >> No, I have Medicare, Medicaid. >> Oh, okay. >> All right. >> Um So, when you got injured in Iraq, um were you in the hospital for a time then, too, or >> No, I was just mostly there seeing the medic and, you know, nothing broke, so >> Right. >> went back out. >> And how long from then until you got out, would you say? >> Probably 4 months. >> So, you were like a year and a half or a little bit more maybe into your service when the injury happened and And did you have like a 4-year enlistment? >> Mhm. >> So, you ended up getting out about halfway through because of your injury. >> Yeah, I tried staying in, did all the fighting I could, but >> Right. >> I didn't get anywhere. >> Okay. Um >> [snorts] >> Actually, you're what would you say, a radio operator? >> Mhm. >> Um but you were in a combat unit then. >> Yeah. >> And when you got released, did you stay through Germany? >> Mhm. >> You went from Iraq to Germany? >> Yeah, for our station. >> Station out of Okay. And then you got released to come back to the states. >> Mhm. >> Um And then you grew up around here, right? >> Yeah, born and raised in Schuylkill County. >> Yeah, Mount Carmel. >> Okay. So, you came back to >> Mount Carmel. >> Got you. Uh were you getting treatment like from from 2003 to >> Um >> 2011 when when your suicide attempt was, were you being treated like the whole time or >> I think I started seeing treatment in probably 2006, 2007. >> Okay. So, but prior to your suicide attempt, then you you had already sought some treatment >> Mhm. >> Um Would you say that you were being treated the whole time or did you you get to a point where things were a lot better and you can stop your drinking. >> So >> It's him each. >> Yeah. >> How about since then? >> Uh Not enough. Well, but this morning he had a hard time getting down there when he's there. At least he stops seeing patients at a certain time, so >> Right. >> But uh >> Now just so we're clear, I don't mean treatment for a you know a neck or back I'm talking about treatment. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So you you're to this point still you're going but kind of just sporadically when you can you you're going. >> Mhm. >> All right. You on meds for that? >> Yeah. >> What are you taking? >> You probably won't know any of them. >> Yeah, maybe maybe not. You try me. >> Flexeril, Remeron, Cymbalta, Trazodone. >> I recognize the last two. Yeah, Trazodone's a nerve pain type thing, isn't it? Or >> It's a sleep aid. >> Okay. >> It's why I have it. >> And and Cymbalta, is that like Prozac or something? >> Uh it's something. >> And the other two are also for for treatment of depression, PTSD or something. And you take those regularly? >> Try to. >> Most of the time? >> Most of the time. >> All right. >> 99% of the time. >> Okay. Yeah, I take some for my blood pressure and I I mean I remember most of the time but not always too, so I I got you. Uh but it's not something like you take a month and then you stop. >> No. >> No. >> You pretty much stay on a plan or something like that. >> All right. >> Um >> So with JR and his and his peeing all over the room and being tough to handle, I mean got to make him want to snap, right? >> Not really. >> How about Heather? >> No. >> No? >> Maybe just frustrating, but she was getting pretty disgusted by it. >> No. >> Having to deal with it and keep track of him and stay on him to get him to stop and all that. >> No, I mean Uh, this happens that night, but during the day, you know, he had a problem going to the bathroom. >> Right. Still. >> He would go to the destruction >> One today still enough. >> Yeah. Especially, you know, >> I know you made a comment to the fire investigators. They asked you something like, "Are we going to smell anything in the in the room?" And you said something about urine to him. I mean, obviously it was frustrating enough to you that you brought it up to them. >> Yeah. But I don't know what was in the room. >> When you said you saw his room and you were close by, you said it was filled with smoke and you couldn't see anything in there. You couldn't see him. Did you get caught or burned or anything? Did you have any injuries? >> No, I had a small burn on my right hand. >> Did you get it treated? >> No. >> Oh. Is it better now? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Burn like red red mark, blister? >> No, a little blister. >> Little blister. Okay. >> Right here. >> Right in there. All right. Um, I I could use a headache. You got a headache or anything? >> No. I'm good. >> Water, coffee? >> Got some water? >> Yeah. >> I'll use that and I'll bring you back some water. >> I'll be right back. >> W- What do you You know, what's your thoughts on things? I just, you know, I I First of all, I feel for you. And you know, I have a lot of respect for you for adopting Junior to begin with, but what are your thoughts on what happened? >> Still trying to wrap my head around it. >> Yeah. >> So. >> What thoughts have come across your your mind? >> That he should be here. >> I agree. Any other things? I mean, you >> I mean, you run through it and >> you beating yourself up over it? >> Yeah, I'm not getting too much sleep, so. >> that. Why do you think he didn't make it out? Do you think there there's there's something wrong with the alarm or are you certain that it was hooked up? >> Mhm. >> You're certain it was hooked up? >> Yeah. Then well when he sleeps he gets into a dead sleep. >> Yeah. >> It's hard to wake him up. >> Yeah. >> Even by shaking him. >> Has he ever laid on that vibrator and had it gone off? Yeah, so he knows what it feels like. >> Yeah, but >> While he was sleeping? >> We tried to but not successful. Wasn't the the best of but it's the only thing we could find that would and you didn't know what you could do. >> Mhm. >> It took us a lot of a lot of research to find that set up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we went to different fire companies and they're like I don't know what to tell you. >> Yeah. >> We don't provide anything. >> Any other things go through your head? And then I just [snorts] want you know, I want to try and put myself in your shoes a little bit >> I wouldn't. >> and think about cuz I'm sure you've thought of everything and obviously we haven't. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking to you right now. >> So we just shouldn't look for dogs or >> You didn't know what was going on when that happened obviously. I mean >> You know, it's not the first time that I did that routine. >> How often do the dogs take off? >> Recently they've been more often. A couple times a week. But other than that it was maybe once every couple months when you know, someone comes over and they open the door and they both take off and you don't expect everybody to block them, so. All right. But, um, friend of ours said when we went to Virginia in December, they had the problem with both of them getting out, and it took them hours to get back. >> Do you remember the last time you had to go chasing after them? >> No, it happens too often. >> Was it once a week? Once a month? >> No. I think good month, once. Sometimes more. >> Got you. >> Now, they're brother and sister, so they once they get out, they want to go run together. >> Yeah. And they know their spots, so. >> Well, um, I was a Air Force guy, so number one, don't pick on me. All right. But, number two, I put a lid on just so we don't splash it all over. What did the army tell you about turning off the power? Because I I've never heard that in the Air Force. But, again, they pick on me for shooting an M-16 on an arcade game, so. >> [laughter] >> At least you weren't a Marine, so. No, I don't know. >> [clears throat] >> With cutting power off, though, it eliminates a lot of the where it travels. >> Got you. >> Um, you know, you can if the breaker box don't get shut off, it can spark there if the breakers don't trip. >> Got you. Got you. And you said you you shut that off and then went down and called 911. >> No, I didn't I shut it off on the way back up. >> All right. I guess I probably should have known where the power thing was. >> No, no, there's there's three panel boxes. Uh, there's one when you come up halfway up my driveway on the right hand side. Then there's another one outside the trailer >> Mhm. >> that controls the house and the water pump. Then there's was inside that controlled the house. >> you. >> And And just so I know, you're talking about the one in front of the house? >> No. >> Not the one down in the >> The one by the driveway. >> The one on the corner? >> Yeah. >> That's the one you turned off? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it was put in >> [snorts] >> 2010, where the that one storm came through. 2010 2011 and a windstorm or >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know that. I was thinking the flooding in '06, but >> No, no, after that. >> Okay. Got you. >> And then we [clears throat] went to go somewhere and tree came down across the pole. >> Oh, okay. >> So, just Instead of redoing all the electric, um, with nice thing cuz they're all picky, you know, they can't you can't have splices before panel box. >> Right. >> So, >> Got you. >> So, that's what >> The panel box isn't in yet, right? >> Yeah. >> What point in time do you remember leaving the door open? >> Breakfast, I started it. >> Okay. >> And that wasn't anything new. >> Okay. And when you went outside to tend to stuff, the animals and chase after the dogs, do you remember if you left any other door with with the door to the Did you still realize that door was open to the stove? >> Yeah, but I mean, it wasn't anything normal for me. Leaving it open to go outside. >> What about any exterior doors? >> No, they're all closed. >> Okay. That's good. Uh, so, going back to the night of the fire, um, you know, the 28th into the first there. Um, the day of, I should say, of the 28th. You said you, uh, you had your doctor's appointment in the morning, right? You were back by like lunchtime, I think you said. And then you guys went to dinner, the three of you. And what time again did you did that that you went to dinner? >> I got there about 5:30-ish. >> Okay. >> I don't pay attention to times. >> Right. >> [clears throat] >> Um >> And I think you said you're you're less than 2 hours, right? From the time you left to get went to eat and came back. Have you ever been to the Antlers before, by the way? Okay. >> Good food. >> Yeah, I like the burgers and fries. Yeah, it's pretty good there. Fish fry is good. Um do you know any of the people that work there? >> Just from going there in the past. Just I don't know their names, but >> So like you didn't know your waitress's name? >> No, I don't know their names. >> You're not that regular or enough, huh? >> No. >> Okay. >> Uh when I when I worked at North Dodge, that was one of our go-to places for lunch. >> Gotcha. How long ago was that that you worked there? >> In the 2000s. >> What year would you say you left there? >> 2008, 2009. >> Did you work anywhere after that? >> No. >> No. >> Uh no. No. Yeah, I I tried to I got my CDL and worked for a off-road company. >> Oh, the the milk tanker guys. Yeah, okay. What year would you say that was? >> That was uh beginning of last year. February I started. Last February. >> Of 2016. And how you said a short time, how long would you say? >> Yeah. I think I quit in May. >> So a few months in the year. Okay. So you had And few years there where you didn't work. >> Mhm. Excuse me, went back to work for them for a few months and since then You agreed on working. When did you start the the bosses training? >> That was September 16th. >> Is that paid by the the VA? Okay, so there was a I was trying to think of the word tuition assistance kind of thing there. Like is that a GI bill or something that does that? Okay. >> They they paid for just going and paying me to go. >> All right. So you got that do you get a disability pension from the army? Did Um Now how does that work? Is it like a full disability you get 50%? >> Uh 60% I don't know again. It's about 1,200 or something a month for that and social security disability is on top of that and what we have for JR. >> Got you. >> Well you know that was almost 4,000 a month. >> Okay. >> [snorts] >> Um and your insurance uh your homeowner's insurance do you know what company that was through? >> I can't think of her name off the top of my head. >> All right. What do you know about your policy? >> It sucks. >> Well most insurance policies end up sucking when you need them but >> Uh [snorts] it was a uh lender back policy. >> Okay. Um you can still get a payout though. All right or >> I'm not sure how it works. He wasn't too clear on that to me so >> Okay. >> So I don't know if I get it or it goes right back to the bank. >> Do you know if you had contents insurance? >> No. >> You you know you did not have it? >> know. >> Okay. Did you know that or you found that out afterwards? >> Afterwards. >> Okay. Shitty time to find that out huh? So you're not going to get a big check for all the contents in your house or anything. >> No. If anything, you you get the difference between what you owe and what the house is valued [snorts] at, is that right? >> No. >> You don't even get that? >> Uh all they do is they priced out a used double wide for the year and they based it off that. >> Okay. Does that cover what's owed? >> Nope. >> Doesn't even cover what's owed. Okay. And this is all stuff you found out since the fire then? >> Mhm, apparently. >> Yeah. All right. Um And your mortgage payments, do you know who your finance company is or anything? >> Wells Fargo. >> Up-to-date on them? >> Couple behind. >> Couple months behind, yeah. Uh roughly how much which is that? >> Um 1,800 or something. >> Okay. Is that taxes and insurance and all that stuff? >> Yeah, through Wells Fargo. >> Okay. Um So, even though you're a couple payments behind, though the insurance company still covers your mortgage with the lender. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it's taken out. Now that check's all >> All right. So, you're not going to owe 70,000 or whatever the case may be to Wells Fargo still. >> No, yeah. >> Isn't that what the insurance company's for? They're to cover that. >> I have no idea what they cover. Uh the guy I talked to hadn't really been very clear. >> Is that like your agent or the investigator? >> Investigator, okay. Got you. >> No, they No one will be talking to me until I get the fire report. >> I see. All right. Well, that's one of the reasons why we're all here. Do you remember what we were doing this night? Uh So, after you got back from dinner that night, you said JR went to bed. Came, like, how long? You came back from dinner, how long would you say till JR went to bed? >> Hour and a half until 2 hours. >> So, tell me again what time you think you went to bed. >> I think we sent him to bed around 8:00 or like 8:00 and he was in bed by about 8:30. >> Okay. And do you remember again what the routine at night was before he went to bed? >> Most likely, you know, he changed into PJs, brushed his teeth, went to the bathroom. >> And I want to be just mentioned something about shower or bath or whatever. Was that a nightly routine for him? >> No, every other night or so. >> So, do you remember if he had a bath? >> No, not that night. >> Okay. You remember he did not have one. Okay. Sorry, just trying to make sure. I don't know if you meant he didn't have one or he didn't remember. >> No, no, he didn't have one. >> He didn't have one. Anybody else bathe or shower that night? >> I was going to say that. >> Got you. But nobody did. >> Mhm. >> All right. >> Kind of hard with the fire. >> Yeah. Anything else you think of, Gary? >> Um Yeah, when you guys were watching the movie, um when the movie was over, did she get changed or anything? >> No, we were we were in our clothes that night. I had my shoes on. >> Do you remember what she was wearing? >> No. I don't even remember what I was wearing. >> How often do you guys watch movies? Is it a nightly thing? >> Hell, yeah. >> Okay. Through through Hulu or whatever? >> Uh either Hulu, Netflix, or no, we had DVDs there. We did a lot of the 3D movies. >> All right. But if you had them there, so you I mean it would be a repeat for you. >> Mhm. >> Well, we had two. >> We had three or four and ones that we bought. >> Do you remember that night for sure then it was Hulu or Netflix or one of the ones you purchased? >> Wasn't anything good, so. >> No. Was it But it was you said earlier you think it was definitely Hulu or Netflix. >> I think so. I can't remember. >> Do you remember who was in the movie? Can't remember anything about it, huh? Okay. Sounds like the movies my wife makes me watch. >> Yeah, sometimes, yeah. >> Um >> No, it was some little story or something, drama. >> And not action or comedy. >> No. >> Do you remember what the drama was about? >> No. >> [clears throat] >> I wasn't into it, so. >> Right. >> What was it? >> You know, married couple, Lifetime movie, what? >> I can't. They really don't stick to me. >> Yeah. >> Well, so listen. >> Um here's the thing. And and you've got to answer this for me. >> No. >> Cuz you and Heather are the only two that can answer this. >> Um >> we know that JR was dead before the fire. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. To medical certainty. >> The the >> I'll I'll call him the ME just to make it simple. He the ME in in uh Binghamton you know, he did an autopsy on JR and and he can say with medical certainty JR was dead before the fire. >> I didn't know that. >> And he can also say there's no medical reason why that happened. Meaning it wasn't his heart. You know, he didn't have a stroke. No heart attack, none of that stuff. So, there's two people >> Right. >> that have to answer that question, that's you and Heather. >> Mhm. >> Right? I wasn't there, you weren't there. It was you, Heather, and JR that were there. Nobody else is there, right? >> Just the three of us. >> Okay. So, we know JR was dead before the fire. So, what happened? What happened to JR? >> I don't know. >> You did. This is how it works, buddy. >> I don't know that. >> We got to answer this question. And I don't know is not going to work. You and Heather know. >> I told you what happened. >> But you left something out here. You had to have. >> I haven't. >> For JR to be dead before the fire, you had to have left something out. And how did it happen? >> I don't know. He went to bed and >> How do you think it happened? >> Last time I knew he was there. >> Did you snap? >> No. >> That being in the in the room thing, did you snap from that? >> No. >> You just lost it with him or JR? >> Let me ask you this, Aaron. How did you know that Junior was still in the house? The only thing you've told us all this whole time is that you knew he was in that house. But if the room's filled with smoke and you can't see him, how did you know he was in there? >> I just assumed. >> You knew he was in there cuz he was already dead. >> He's not the type of kid that would get out. >> He had you said he tested you tested everything with him on those. >> Right. >> You didn't hear any alarms go off. You would have heard the alarms go off. I mean, we're we're just trying to get to the bottom of it. >> [cough and clears throat] >> Okay, but [snorts] you're not helping us any. >> I'm helping you. >> Because Heather's over there and she's doing the same thing. >> Right. >> Okay, so she's over there helping. She's talking. She's telling us what took place. Okay? So, we expect the same out of you. >> I've been cooperating. >> And we appreciate that. But EJ, you've got to give us something happened. >> Why would I kill him? >> We're not saying you did. >> Why would I snap? >> We're not saying things happen sometimes. >> It things weigh on you. >> I get that. We're both parents. We we >> not understand what weighs on me. >> Yeah, you're right. I'm not you. What what I'm saying is >> even know why I got into foster care. >> I don't. Why don't you just tell me why? >> Cuz I shot a kid in Afghanistan. Mother and son. >> And now you're toning for that. I I get that. >> So, one way I gave back was doing foster care and he came along. From day one, I wanted to adopt him. >> And we talked about Heather. How did she feel about it? >> She wanted to, too. I mean, we went back and forth, you know. I mean, it was stressful in the beginning, but >> Sure. But, you know, now she's pregnant, you guys got your own kid on the way, been trying forever. You already had this miscarriage. She's stressed out as hell with the pregnancy and worrying about a miscarriage and and dealing with with JR and his pee in all over his room. I know she was stressed. I I've seen messages from her that said so. >> No. >> Did she lose it? >> No. >> Did Did she do something to JR? >> No. >> Well, one of you two knows something. It's you or her. Right? >> I'm telling you what I know. >> Okay, what Tell me what you think. What do you think happened to JR then? >> No. Like I've been telling you, the fire. That's all I know. >> Okay, but we know that's not the case. >> [snorts] >> Then I don't know. >> The ME can say and and he's been doing this for decades. >> I get it. >> He can say that he did not die in the fire. When people die in the fire, there's a lot of evidence. You have soot that you're breathing in. Right? And and carbon dioxide in your blood builds up and that's what kills you. It's not usually the heat, it's not the flames. It's smoke inhalation. And and two ways they know smoke inhalation, soot in your mouth and your nose and your trachea and then your lungs and the carbon dioxide level in your blood that's high. JR had none of that. He had no soot. He didn't breathe in any soot. And his carbon dioxide level is what what ours is now. Okay, which indicates that he's not breathing in at the time the smoke gets to him in his room. And the other reason he's not breathing in when the smoke gets there is because he's not breathing at all, he's already dead. And two people were there when that must have happened. You and Heather. >> We need to know if it was an accident or did you go to dinner with you? >> Did you guys go that night to dinner? >> Yes. >> Was it the night before you went to >> No. >> Okay, so sometime between when you come home from dinner say whatever 6:30, 7:00 and the time of the fire at 1:00 a.m. Something happened to JR. >> I don't know that. >> You or Heather or both of you know what happened. Somebody's got to tell us what happened. JR's done all he can to tell us what happened. Now, one of you two has to pick it up from there and tell us what happened. >> I've been telling you what happened. >> [clears throat] >> You've been telling us a version that you want us to believe of what happened, but I don't I don't think everything you told us is true. For one thing, there's this missing hour of your time. >> And I have no idea what that hour was. >> For another thing, there's a missing 3 hours of Heather's time. We know where she went. We've got her on video and that don't add up, either. That doesn't make any sense at all. She's lied to us about where she went and what she did. >> How she lie? >> Cuz she said she went to Walmart and Price Chopper and made it to Walmart. >> Okay. >> She didn't. We're telling you the truth. >> She is unreliable. I don't believe it. >> I can show you video. I'll show you that she did not go to the Norwich Price Chopper. She lied about where she went. Here's another thing. She doesn't normally drive. Why did she get a bug in her ass about driving off at 10:30 that night? >> I told you why. >> 3-hour tour for stuff she doesn't have to go go get that night. It would have waited. She left that house, your house, for a reason. And I think it was so that you could help her out. >> No. >> Something happened to JR. You guys had come up with an idea on how to help hide that. And then your house catches fire. >> Why would I burn my house down? Why would I lose $2,000 a month? >> To hide what happened to JR? >> I'm not like that. >> What do you mean why would you lose $2,000 a month? >> the situation, man. You want that $2,000 a month? >> I was. >> What I said? >> Did you get $2,000 a month for JR? >> Exactly. >> Did you ever tell anybody that? >> Yeah. Everybody knew we had a safe before him. >> Did you ever tell anybody you know, that sucks we're losing $2,000 a month? >> That wasn't our priority. >> Did you ask Did you ever say that to anybody? >> Why would I? >> I'm asking. >> What I need to. >> Did you ever say that to anybody? >> It never came up. No one asked. >> I'm asking you did you ever say that to anybody? >> To who? Not to who? >> Did you ever say it to Heather, for example? >> No. >> You never made that comment to Heather? >> No, we were trying to figure out what to do, but nothing but money. >> But did you say it? >> No, we looked at our bills and tried to figure out how we're going to do it. >> Did you ever say [snorts] to anybody, there goes $2,000 a month? >> No. >> Okay. Thank you. That's all I'm asking. >> [clears throat] >> Why would I say it though? Why are you putting words in my mouth? >> Well, cuz it's true. I'm absolutely not putting words in your mouth. I'm just asking you a question. >> But it is true, isn't it? What? I'm losing $2,000? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Also lost a son. >> Yeah. You did. >> I would rather have him. >> think EJ that you'd want to help us figure out what happened? >> I'm trying. >> Like I said, Jake JR's done all the talking he can. >> Right. >> JR said He said a lot, actually. This This could have easily been uh >> [snorts] >> Jeez, you know, sorry for your loss. Same. Obviously, the fire is what what the problem was. But uh you know, we're a little bit more thorough than that. >> Right. >> I have you Now, you are. So are we. Because because JR was speaking. And JR he says that you know, the fire didn't get me. My mom and dad had something to do with this. That's what JR is saying. And luckily I mean he's able to hear that. So he lets us know this is what JR is saying. So now we're here. With you and Heather. And JR is telling us you and Heather know something about this. >> I don't know anything. >> One of you guys, one of you two did something to JR. And what you need to help us understand is how that happened. And what was done. It's not even a question of did somebody kill JR. We know somebody killed him. Right? You can agree with me on that, right? >> I know. >> So the ME says he wasn't breathing at the time of the fire. Somebody killed him before the fire. You don't care what the ME says? >> That's what the ME says. I didn't say I didn't care what he said. >> Okay. Well, I I didn't hear you. I'm sorry. I thought that's what you said. Well, so let's back this up again. The the ME Dr. Turson they've been doing this a long long time. Specializes in deaths of children. That's sort of his little thing. So he spends a lot of extra time training on all that stuff. >> [clears throat] >> He says without a doubt JR was dead before the fire. Can we agree on that? JR was dead before the fire. >> I If that's what he says. >> Can we agree that if you're in a fire and you're alive and breathing you're going to breathe in soot and you're going to have evidence of that? >> I guess. I don't know. I've never >> And you've heard of carbon monoxide poisoning, right? That's breathing in Right. products of of combustion. Carbon stuff like in smoke. Um and it makes the carbon monoxide level in your blood go up, which is a completely testable thing. They can test live persons or dead person's blood to get a level. And if you're dead, it stops at the time of your death. And luckily with that it doesn't really change. So the experts say your carbon monoxide has to be above 30% in order for it to be fatal for anybody. Right? Anything under 5% the lab doesn't even test for it. JR's is under 5%. I smoke, mine's probably at an 8%. You don't smoke, yours is somewhere at 2 or below, so a 0, 1, or 2% somewhere in there. JR's is below 5%. It's about a 2%. So the science tells us that JR did not breathe any smoke. It tells us he was dead before the smoke even got to his room. Okay? We're agreeing on that then, right? JR was dead before the smoke got to his >> So that's what that means saying? >> Okay. So now that we agree on that, let's back that up a little bit more. If JR was dead before the fire, we'll call that 1:00 because we know 911 was called at 1:15. If JR was dead before 1:00 a.m. and you're saying he was alive at say 7:00 when you got home from the Ontario restaurant, somewhere in that 6 hours JR died. Right? Has to be. The math says so on that, right? Right? >> I guess. >> Okay. The only people with him in those 6 hours are you and Heather. Right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So you're a logical guy, he's a logical guy, I'm a logical guy. Logic tells us somewhere in that 6 hours when you and Heather are the only two with him, JR dies. Means you and Heather got to know what happened. Whether you know ahead of time or you know afterward and help cover it up with fire. That's what we need to figure out between the three of us. >> I didn't cover up anything. >> Was it you? Was it her? Was it the bullet to you? >> That's what we need to talk about. >> Come on. >> I told you what happened. >> No, you only told me part of it. >> No. >> What happened to JR before the fire? >> Uh he was laying there. >> there. Why did he end up dead? >> I don't know. >> Why didn't you hear any smoke alarms? >> I have no idea. >> Why didn't you see the light of the smoke alarm? >> It was too black in there. >> They're designed to be bright. The flashing is designed to be bright, right? >> Maybe you went up there and did something. >> No, I didn't come along till after. Wasn't me. You know I wasn't there. >> You know it was just you and Heather. >> You >> Right. Nobody else snuck in there. >> No, we were both gone. >> I know you were both gone. >> I'll say this as nice as I can. Okay. I let dogs out. Started fire. Went after my animals. Then I'm going to go get them. I don't know why the fire happened. I don't know why it happened. >> Well, we can agree that the fire got started because you left the wood stove door >> I can take the blame for that. >> Right. But that's why the fire started. >> Charge me for that. >> We're not We're not trying to charge you for that. That's not what we're concerned about. We're concerned about answers to all the questions. >> And I've been answering your questions as to why it happened. >> And JR. That's our concern. >> Right. I've been answering your questions. >> Ernest. Ernest. You got calm down with the hostility, okay? We're We're talking to you. We're trying to get answers. That's all. We're doing it for JR. >> Well, you back back up a little bit. >> I don't have any problem with that, but I'm just trying to talk to you, >> You're starting to make me a little nervous. >> Okay. All right. I'll go back a little too. >> That's not far enough. >> You want a cup of coffee or anything? >> I don't have any coffee. >> He'll smoke cigarettes to you. >> I'd take you out for a smoke if you didn't. >> Nope. Okay. >> So, listen. Again, use your logic here, okay? Let Let me give it to you this way. This is an example I've heard before of circumstantial stuff. If you go to bed at night and the grass is brown, right? And you can see grass and sidewalk and everything else. And you get up in the morning and the ground is covered with snow. Logic tells you it snowed overnight, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. If TR is alive at 7:00 and he's dead at 1:00, logic tells you something happened to him in between that, right? >> Well, if you guys want to point the finger, I'll take the blame playing for it. >> Well, we got to point the finger at somebody, but we want to point it at the right person. You know what I mean? If that's you, then then we'll talk about that. If it's Heather, we got to talk about that, too. >> We got to have the truth for Jay. >> Why would you tell us to point it at you? >> Well, you guys are looking at something. >> Did you do something? >> No. >> Then why would we Why should we point the finger at you? >> You got to look into something. >> Yeah, but don't you think we want to point it at the right person? If your only involvement was you helped Heather by starting a fire or or helping a fire get started or however you want to phrase this later on to cover up something she did, then that's what That's what you got to talk to us about. >> You guys don't want to listen to anything that happened. >> See, I just don't believe that. You're the only two there. And And we know something's going on with him. We know this. And you know it, too. In there, I know you know it. And till you talk about it, it's not going to go away. It's just going to be being there. It's going to fester. You know how this works. >> think I don't know that, do you? >> I I I know you know this, but I'm trying to remind you of this. >> I think I know this better than anyone in this station. >> do, EJ. You probably do. Given your history, you probably do. You're right. And you know that if you don't get that out of there, it's just going to keep festering. Now is the time. Now is the time. >> Save that time for our lawyers. >> You think or you know? Well, I know. >> You either charge me or you let us go. >> What should I charge you with? >> I don't know. You're Okay, but you're saying that we know something that we >> In the 2017 Chenango County, New York case, Ernest Franklin II was charged with second-degree murder, third-degree arson, and tampering with physical evidence in the death of his adoptive son, Jeffrey Franklin. On March 8th, 2019, Ernest Franklin was convicted of second-degree murder, third-degree arson, and tampering with physical evidence. On or about July 8th, 2019, Ernest Franklin was sentenced to 21 years to life with parole eligibility after the minimum term. As of the most recent verified information from court and sentencing reports, Ernest Franklin is serving that sentence.