and there was that made the housekeeper's name that was dropped the whole courtroom was like oh and even Lynn from being stone-faced went and her her daughter turned to her and went there were a couple of jurors we call her Mean Mug it was purely an accident the camera just followed Alec murdaugh [Music] welcome back to the civil rights lawyer Channel I've been asked to do something on the Murdoch trial and I want to bring you some inside information about what really happened at the Murdoch trial so I reached out to my colleague Larry Foreman you may know him as the DUI guy from YouTube he covered much of the Johnny Depp trial from inside the courtroom and also was able to get into the Alex Murdoch trial in South Carolina so I figured who better to hear from than Larry he was in the courtroom sitting right next to some of these people watching the reactions of the jurors and so on and he's also a trial lawyer you can find a lot more of Larry's coverage on his YouTube channel he's also very active on Twitter I'll post his links in the description like me he's a real lawyer with real courtroom experience that you can watch for yourself on his channel so here he is also if you haven't already subscribe to both our channels so you actually did go to the the Murdoch trial I did at least South Carolina three times three different occasions because I I had to keep coming back from my own jury trials so how how many days of testimony did you get watch four in total it would have been six or seven but the last trip I just was not able to get in because Alec took the stand and my my pull was just not strong enough to get in the courtroom they were giving priority to people uh higher above me like what was the process for you to get into that courtroom so there are two ways general public or press um if I had been there since day one I probably would have had one of those fancy purple passes at which point I could come and go as I please show up a minute before the judge takes the bench and you're in no matter what uh assuming that you it's like a lottery they do a media Lottery um because they did not have enough media to fill in all the seats and they always had a few leftovers with the exception of when Alec took the stand uh I applied for the media lottery I kind of kind of sort of got it I mean Becky Hill the court clerk was the woman to talk to Becky Hill is amazing shout out to you Becky she was actually the one that read the verdict yesterday evening um so you got a chance to see her if you if you have not seen her uh because she was obviously not on camera but Becky is the sweetest nicest coolest person like the first day I showed up the bailiff was like who are you I told her my name and who I'm with and she's like all right I can't let you in and I was like I emailed Becky and she's like all right hold on she literally gets on the phone it's like Becky I have Larry Foreman here and uh oh all right Becky says he's in you know and it's like you literally feel like a VIP at a at a club in La you know I kept making a joke in the line that it feels like it's for some people it's easier to get into clubs in Los Angeles certain exclusive clubs in La than it was to get into that trial for some for some people and especially me at the very end of my last trip it just it was completely jam-packed but that was one way so the media Lottery um and then general public you just stand in line whenever people gather whatever number you are there's no guarantee you'll get in sometimes people leave after lunch um sometimes people will leave in the middle of the day and as soon as people leave relinquish their badges those badges are handed out if there's people in line so was there a lot of people that were unable to get in and waiting outside towards the NDS in the beginning no what Witnesses did you get to to see oh goodness uh a couple of the former employees of the law firm Professor Dr Chief Deputy officer what's his name um the expert that they put on they're a really good one I actually kind of like him he's very genuine I got to see a couple of the lawyers uh his former partners and I got a chance to see uh a couple of sled FBI folks uh oh and of course uh Michael Gunn I was there when Michael Gunn testified he's the the real Forge not the fake Forge for those who don't know what I'm talking about Forge was the company that was cutting checks to uh people who were recovering money in their cases well Alec created his own DBA doing business as Forge LLC which was a fake Forge and calling it forged so that his accountants would not be able to tell where that money is going that's how he kept it a secret it was a very smart man very talented at uh deception he was before the trial he was definitely good at it because he would write a check and he would write it to forge LLC and then cash it on the back end and his own bank account his Fifth Third Bank account meanwhile his accountants see Forge and they go oh that's Forge Consulting without even doing a double take until it was discovered a few months ago so I got a chance to see Michael Gunn testify about what Forge is what he does who he is and how of course he has no access to that Fifth Third DBA account that Alec Murda was they've already had exhibits and evidence to show that he was the owner of that account the sole owner of that account now did you see any of the Murdoch family in the courtroom watching oh yes every day every time I was there and I watched them walk to the courthouse several times did you ever interact with him at all no I was going to I wanted to like interview Buster but then I found out he's gonna testify so I was like I'll reserve the interview until after he testifies and then even after he testified I I backpedaled and I was like you know what I just don't feel comfortable obviously no one else is approaching them and I don't want to be that guy like how are they acting in there I mean were they I mean could you did you get any sense of you know were they supportive of the defendant or they were supportive but they were very stoic it's a very stoic family again I believe it's a crime family I haven't watched the Netflix documentary but people are saying my sources are telling me that they are very deeply involved in like drugs and smuggling and a lot of dirty dirty [ __ ] that's why I think he was stealing so much money is to pay off bad people that he was not able to make enough money to pay off it was not to feed his drug habit there's no way no how but the family was there to support to show the jury that they still support that they're behind him because if the family ostracizes you that means you did it I think that's kind of clear and any human being's mind you don't need to be a juror or a legal expert the family just does not show up at all it's like okay they all think you did it but if they're there every day they testified you know Buster his brother his son his brother they're all testifying it's like well clearly he's got familial support so he might be innocent you know that was the I think impression they were trying to make and there were there were moments in the trial when I forget which part it was but I'll never forget John Marvin's wife John Marvin is Alec Murdoch's brother and he he's one he was the last defense Witness but before he took the stand he was sitting in the pews and somebody was testifying I can't remember who um but I do remember his wife Alec excuse me um John Marvin's wife was sitting next to him she was wearing green that day she had a blonde friend with her and I think it was a family friend I don't know who she was she was there for the first time and that's the only time I've seen her there and John Marvin's wife broke down uh and like was crying and her blonde friend was consoling her that I remember and there was another moment that I'll never forget uh so his sister Lynn Lynn had her daughter in the courtroom and there was one day when there were some names being dropped about who all Alec Murdoch was on the stand Alec Murdo was on the stand and he was testifying about who he bought pills from and there was that made the housekeeper's name that was dropped the whole courtroom was like oh and even Lynn from being stone-faced went and her her daughter turned to her and went and it was like a lot of commotion in the courtroom because and even the lady I was sitting next to who was very like she went to high school with these people so she's been she's from South Carolina she wrote down the name and went oh my God so you know it was big you know something big happened and I'm sitting there going who is this person you know like I've never heard of her I don't know who she is but clearly everybody but me knows who's from that town so it was a very big moment it was like one of the only times I personally have seen emotion come from the family like from Lynn at least Lynn is very stoic I mean you saw Buster if you watched the sentencing you saw Buster just I thought he was tearing up but one moment just a little bit like his eyes maybe maybe I'm hallucinating I don't know but he they've all remained stoic not a tear shed and I don't know if you blame it on addiction or just like you dealing enough crime and you're just like this is just part of the gig sometimes you go down you know the one thing you can't see on TV is is probably the one thing that we as trial lawyers focus on at a jury trial is you know you can actually look at the jury and see how they're reacting to testimony see what see what they're like see what they're paying attention to see if they're sleeping see if they're taking notes I don't know if they're allowed to do that here but we can't see that on TV what so I'm sure you watched the jury some um you know in while the trial is going on did you get any sort of sense of of what they were thinking or whether they were paying attention well I now have the benefit of hindsight I suppose then now that we know what the verdict is um so without tainting my opinion what I'm about to tell you by the current verdict I thought they were mixed I thought that they were very mixed in their um there were a couple of jurors we call her Mean Mug like for example mean mug she was James reported that she had tissues in her ears at one point during I think it was Alec murdo's testimony as he was testifying like she just put or maybe it was maybe it wasn't him I can't remember but it was the defense's case she put tissues there were there were three women with blankets and they would literally just cover themselves up but they were just cold several jurors sometimes will find you'll find them rest their eyes you know and I tell people all the time they're like oh my God are jurors allowed to do that jurors are allowed to do anything until the judge says something and the judge if the judge doesn't say anything other than like all right stretch break for example when he starts noticing a couple of jurors nodding off if you're bored at home watching this testimony there's a reason that the jurors are reacting in a similar fashion they are human beings as well people forget that the human element sometimes is forgotten and is lost on people um if you are listening to a witness and the witness and you're just like oh my god when will it end this witness just goes on and on and dry stuff you know like for instance the financials they went through like 50 different transactions by the second fifth one the 12th one we got it but you have to do 38 more times and you're bored out of your skull at home going when is he going to get to the good stuff what do you think the jury's doing the jury's doing exactly the same thing as you are because they're in the exact same position only they can't go all right I'm gonna turn off the TV and I'm gonna go make some food they have to sit there and suffer through it because they can't get up they have to sit there and listen if they want to break all they get is a collective break and then they get right back into to it so it's very understandable and like there's even somebody sent me um uh an article it's a law review article from some University you know convicted by a sleeping jury is the title I believe and I haven't read it I haven't had time it's very long obviously and I haven't had time but I imagine I imagine and I've read some some literature on the topic recently like yesterday so John when was the last time like you had a case have you have you tried cases oh yeah yeah so I've tried murder I've tried murder trials you've tried murder trials when was the last time you had a juror let's start with this question when was the last time you had a juror fall asleep in the middle of your trial never really it might be possible I don't know you probably didn't notice because trust me even if they're not asleep but they're they might be like Westing their eyes for just a little bit it happens all the time and I've seen it in my jury trials even though they're very very short sometimes jurors just get bored and that's a fact now have I ever seen a judge and this was going to be my next question but I guess you kind of already answered it well you know I was going to say when was the last time you saw a judge not just in your cases how about in in the last 100 years of jurisprudence in the United States of America when was the last time you heard a news story jurors scolded for sleeping in case this many to me zero I've never heard it it doesn't exist judges do have the option but again the fact is when the testimony is interesting captivating and you're like glued to your screen like this going oh my God I can't believe this is happening do you think there's a juror that's going to be asleep during that part of the testimony they're sitting just like you are like oh my God this is fascinating this is interesting I'm awake for this it's human nature it's you cannot forget the human element what were your thoughts on the jury coming back with a verdict after only three hours we're talking about five weeks of testimony then then three hours I mean my immediate thought as as a defense lawyer would be that that's good yeah usually a quick verdict you know for for the defense I mean that the prosecutor usually is getting nervous if it's if it's if they're coming back quickly the actual time I believe is like two hours 45 minutes give or take but that's not even the point it's worse than that a juror gave an interview this morning to Good Morning America did you hear about this I I saw I saw something on it where he said he made up his mind from the beginning and they talked about for 45 minutes I don't know if that was 45 minutes yeah yeah that's exactly it it's 45 minutes they came in they had a decision they just did not want to come out with a verdict because they were afraid of what people might think of them coming back so quickly which the damage is still done it's just a day late you know what I mean the news is coming out anyway just a day late um that they deliberated for only 45 minutes and that just tells me I don't know I don't know if it's I scolded Jim Griffin the one who did the closing in my in my live on my channel uh the DUI guy Plus literally I I went through and I explained why I think his closing should have been stronger and he should have had more visual aids with respect to Reasonable Doubt to like pound into the jurors that because the prosecutor kept dragging the standard down to Common Sense and it's the defense's job to show what the the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury decided based on common sense that is the defense's Fault the defense has to hammer home countless times countless times and Jim definitely did not do enough of this apparently what Reasonable Doubt is how many reasonable doubts we have list them make it visual make them see it like in my latest trial um that I had February 10th it's on my YouTube channel it's called the six minute verdict and there was a reason for that the jury went out at 4 32 PM came back 4 38 not guilty uh in the business we call that a three-word verdict not guilty one of the things that I did in my closing which I think was very effective and people have pointed this out to me too in the comments section I went through one by one all I took all of the evidence that the prosecutor had like the horizontal gaze and stagmus you know the walking turn the the possession of a open container absence of this absence of that no video and each and every single one of these I was like that's a reasonable doubt in and of itself that's reasonable and it's all visual it's on a PowerPoint it's in your face and then at the very end I had like 13 on one screen it's very powerful I've seen prosecutors shudder and I said Each one individually by itself just one is enough for a not guilty verdict like I don't know why defense lawyers are so afraid to say that because the burden is not on us you know some defense lawyers feel like they have to prove their clients innocence that's not the standard but the problem is in a small town sometimes it's hard to you know convince people of that back to Murdoch do you think he was guilty of the murder 100 oh yeah he if not him pulling the trigger he's involved in some way shape or form I think he was there I have this whole cartel theory that I uh released on my channel not this Friday but last Friday which was I know this I don't know when this video is going to air but uh today's March 3rd so that was February 25th I was still in 24th I was still in South Carolina so feel free to check out my channel like I said it's the DUI guy plus uh and it's on there I'll link that and your videos on this in the description below yeah thanks um if you're outside of South Carolina let me just put it to you this way if you're outside of South Carolina you can Chuck it up as far-fetched BS I don't believe it this is so weird nope stop making stuff up if you're from there it's like oh my God how do you not know yes they're a crime family yes they're all dirty yes they're all this yes they're all that depends on where you are in the country and how you look at this case that's another huge factor that you have to consider because we don't know what the jurors knew and what they didn't know about the family and what they admitted to and what they didn't admit to because it's possible that they convicted somebody uh mentioned in the chat earlier today actually they said uh they're from South Carolina and they said South Carolina jurors is the direct quote uh the South Carolina jury voted the way that they did because the South Carolina jurors are afraid to go against the grain meaning against the public uh opinion and the public opinion is they're he's guilty as Sin it doesn't matter if the evidence is there or not we just have to convict because if we don't we're going to be in the hot seat for the rest of our lives because it's a small town everybody knows everyone eventually people will find out who we are we had that slip up with lawn crime or core TV's camera whichever one it was I don't know I'm not even dinging them because it was purely an accident the camera just followed Alec Murda the judge called it out today in court after the sentencing the the camera just followed Alec and it went past the jury and all the jurors faces were captured one of the women on the jury was smirking smiling as Alec murdaugh went by after they announced the verdict of guilty I thought that was completely disgusting and inappropriate small town politics small town politics have have absolutely won the day with this trial there was Reasonable Doubt and the jury ignored it I stand by it I know Dan is uh I think it's in agreement I believe Nick is Nick nickata is of the same opinion Peter tragos um Danny and direct is who I'm talking about so we have a minority of lawyers maybe even the majority at this point I don't know but we all feel that he is guilty and he was like we understand why he was found guilty and in the background with all the information that we possess the Netflix and all that even though I still haven't watched it there's a lot of finger pointing at like he's involved a hundred percent he has some knowledge he's not sharing he's he's done something he caused this to happen but did he pull the trigger again I don't see a motive I just don't much like a lot of other people we don't get it what was the justification yeah it's uh I mean they clearly they clearly didn't like him you know I mean um a three-hour verdict that I think my last jury trial I did a a plumbing dispute case and it was maybe a three-day trial something like that and we had three hour deliberation over a plumbing dispute you know so to think that you're you're gonna have a three-hour deliberation over somebody's life and and well according to the jury it was 45 minutes even you know the juror that gave the interview they deliberate for 45 minutes and then sat around twiddled their thumbs and cooked their eggs for two hours I figured that guy is just not likable you know the small town stuff everybody knows them anyways plus you know they've seen all the pre-trial publicity on it and he just doesn't seem likable to me I will agree there there's no there's no way I can spin it and say oh he's a great no no he's he's a thief a liar a manipulator a a scumbag who stole from people living and dead in personal injury cases like who does that would it have flown with another jury in another place with all the Reasonable Doubt there if you take the small town politics out of it that is a question to ponder do you think it was a mistake for him to take the stand people are saying yes I don't know I think he did well but then again he was talking to his peers so it may have struck differently for an outsider than it did for his peers and if it's a reasonable doubt case I mean he's potentially answering questions that were that were unanswered and perhaps it's better to have as many unanswered questions as possible if it's a reasonable doubt case but I suspect there's no way he was going to win that trial like you said with that that small town southern jury it's sort of like to Kill a Mockingbird you know Atticus Finch could he could say whatever he wants to say and the truth can be whatever it is but it's not not necessarily going to make any difference I guess I was just hopeful that Reasonable Doubt would win the day and I was wrong you know of any substantial issues for appeal that may come up not substantial but they do have a million of them this judge has made so many rulings that were improper but you and I both know 999 996 of those million are going to be harmless error and the other four uh the court of appeals is going to say not enough for a reversal judgment Affirmed yeah no nobody's no appellate judge even probably is going to go out on that out on that limb you know we're public the public consensus is just so so in favor of throwing this guy in prison locking away the key I mean they're not gonna they're not gonna take that on no thanks for having me it's been a lot of fun I just want to give a shout out to my homeboy Josh White because I know you're watching this um he watches your channel a lot I told you about him I just wanted to plug that in uh so thanks for watching Josh I appreciate it uh there you go see I told you man he's been telling me to reach out to you and I uh but he had his own you know self-interested motivators as to why I should reach out to you and I was like dude I'll reach out to him and I'll reach out to him relax yeah we'll we'll stay in touch and and uh I mean let's talk again all right man well we'll get back to it thanks again all right brother thanks so much don't forget to like And subscribe comment below foreign