do you remember the New Mexico law student who was hassled by the cops outside his dorm room because somebody allegedly saw him bringing alcohol inside okay so do you have any alcohol in your possession I don't answer questions on walk grounds okay so you don't have any alcohol in your possession on walk grounds well he has had now another interaction with the police there and this time he ended up arrested you want to give me your ID just give me your name and date of birth and that's it unfortunately if you're demanding my ID that's that's a fourth I'm not demanding I did never demand all I said is give it to me okay you already failed to identify yourself okay give me your left give me your right arm you got you want to play games brother I'm I'm here being nice and you don't want to give me your name and dat a first but shortly after the patrol cop arrested him the supervisor shows up and apologizes and lets him out sir so I'm the supervisor here I was just made aware of what happen yeah um so I don't think it qualifies for any crime okay doesn't qualify for a crime I'm going to go ahead and of course um I I want that off number and then the law student has a debate with the supervisor about what the Fourth Amendment law is that applied to the situation and whether the detainment and the arrest was unlawful or not this this whole thing was unlawful the moment he put his hands on me how can we fix it okay the deputy made a mistake that's going to be addressed of course so the detention was off were you saying the detention was the fell ID in the arrest was not the issue of whether and when police officers can forcibly detain somebody pursuant to an investigatory stop under the fourth amendment is actually an extremely complex one and there are a lot of misconceptions let's look at this new footage and then I'll give you the law straight from the horse's mouth right from the 10th circuit US court of appeals on what the law is [Music] here basically this is one of the situations where cops show up and they say that somebody had called them and Reporting somebody who was suspicious in those scenarios where no crime has been reported where the cops have seen no crime taking place Can the police officer detain somebody against their will in order to investigate them get their ID get their date of birth get their full name Etc or is that person constitutionally free to leave we'll get to that but first do you remember the prior incident that made its way on to audit the audit and several other Chann let's go through some of my favorite parts of that one it's sort of a similar issue we got to report that um you were seeing walking into your dorm with alcohol is there alcohol in there uh I don't answer questions what's your name and your badge number officer Perle NMSU police right now you're asking yes and I have the right to say no cuz you're asking you're not it's not a lawful order I need you to make it a lawful order being rained for suspicion of minor um in possession of alcohol mhm we need to see your ID okay and if not and if not you could be considered coning identity cuz New Mexico statute says that concealing of identity is a secondary charge I would have to have been arrested or suspected of a crime right now you he just hear arrested or suspected you're being suspected of a have Poss on what on what grounds okay so do you have any alcohol in your possession I don't answer questions on what grounds okay so you don't have any alcohol in your possession on what grounds I don't answer questions I yeah that's her room bro n they are they're trying to go in bro they trying to ID me and [ __ ] but nah okay so who are you talking to I'm recording you you're recording okay at all if you want to hang you that's fine what we are trying to do is we're trying to be cooperative with you and have you be cooperative with us and help us clear this matter up okay I gave him my name Jo what's your last name you don't need my last name and you do not need my date of birth unless you want to run me for unless you want to run my name through your system are you trying to run my name through the system you have warrants for your arrest is I don't answer questions I don't answer questions I'm asking questions I don't it's my fifth amendment is it or is it not okay so the question is is that like the officer told you you're being suspected of having possession of alcohol underage so in that case the easiest way to prevent this is for you to let us know either you had you got somebody saw you carry a case of beer you have case of beer in your possession I don't answer questions okay all right um so the other the next the next step in this process would be would you give us consent to check your room n to make sure that you have no alcohol in your possession I do not consent to any surges nor teachers okay very good all right um this is completely up to you how you want to play this you could get a warrant or you could so or you have probable costs goad right now we do have reasonable suspicion that possibly a crime had been committed we're trying to investigate that mhm you're certainly welcome to refuse if you wish I know but we need to ID you or and if we do not if you do not present your identification you can face it in onra citation you're saying could I need you to say you will I'm giving you the opportunity to no I need that ultimatum I will give you my idea if you say that I'm going to go get arrested if I don't give it to you so you'll give us if we say that if you say that yes sir cuz that's already grounds for me to set up litigation against you so you're threatening to sewers I ain't threatening nothing brother that's what you just said it's not a threat it gives you crown it's not a threat it gives me grounds does it or does it not I don't answer questions and so it wasn't really a big deal didn't end up an arrest or anything like that it just ended up in it just ended up in YouTube videos here was audit the audits analysis on what happened Mr Martinez gets an a for strongly asserting his constitutional rights by refusing to answer questions denying the officer's consent to search his dorm room and declining the officer's requests that he identify himself that being said in future encounters I would suggest that Mr Martinez keep in mind that Reasonable Suspicion is determined based on the facts known to the officer and that officers are typically not required to articulate the basis of their Reasonable Suspicion to the individuals they detain accordingly if a court determined that the officers in this situation had Reasonable Suspicion based on certain facts about the anonymous tip that were not shared with Mr Martinez it could also conclude that he was obligated to ident himself and so audit the audit is exactly right and what were the chances that this law student was going to end up in another encounter with police officers really with the exact same issue with as far as we know an anonymous call an anonymous report this time not even reporting that a crime has occurred hello how you doing brother all right [Applause] right according to the time stamp on the body cam this happened on January 8th of this year why did this officer arrive at the scene well here the law student explains it to the supervisor after everything had already happened I was in the in the junkyard right during business hour was I was doing my job everything with my hands I I've been working CU you can tell um then I S him in the junkyard you seen how big it is I lost my keys in there part yeah lost them couldn't find them they gave me a chance it was like they close at 5: it was like 4:30 I was like please let me I find going they look and they picked me up on a truck and said hey the alarms are going to activate automatically you need to get out what about your car cuz it was parked inside the property it was like well I don't know like so the owner or one of the employees gave me three choices like okay Choice one you could leave it here it's all secure we have sensors cameras and whatever uh if anything well and you'll come back tomorrow and look for your keys or get a lock me to make you a key or we could get or we could get a tractor or one of the forklifts to move your car right outside like if you can move my car right outside so I call Lock would be fine uh locksmith got there and during this whole time I was just waiting outside right the locksmith got there and he was like we did everything right and then I just see a patrol like whatever I get down he like hey like oh we got a call and you that you were inside the property that you were looking at or what he said that that you were inside the property and they like okay and then they take up they and then they say okay what's your name basically he had lost his keys in the junkyard when the junkyard closed he was forced to wait outside the junkyard and and had to wait on a locksmith for his car apparently somebody had called the cops reporting a suspicious person okay say that again uh I lost the keys s the junkyard over there okay so I called them to come and get the to come open the gate or what huh to come open the gate no the key the car the car is the one that lost the keys that lost the keys to the car oh like you went into the property and you dropped the keys yeah the I was in there doing you know like regular junk stuff looking for my parts uh when I was leaving is when I found out I didn't have my keys they let me go in look for them all over the 30 Acres of cars they have okay didn't find them so they just grabbed the tractor and mooved move the car outside so I can call them lock oh okay yeah that's where yeah cuz we got a call with a gentleman with your description that's why on the property were you the only one on there yeah he just got here to the no we had a description of your your description that you were walking around the property yeah well I was here the car was close so I couldn't get out so let me understand is this car is yours well at the moment I just bought it you already bought it okay you're going to what's wrong with it besides the key it starts yeah it starts and everything just came to pick up some Square part oh okay all right yeah they just sent us out here cuz I I'm wondering if the owners cuz there's cameras on here brother oh yeah yeah so they uh saw saw you walking around yeah they also told me like they told me like oh the alarms activate after 5 automatically so but they closed the gate behind you or what yeah they move they just moved the car here and they Clos the gate okay what's your last name brother uh just myis I'm sorry uh I don't want to get any I didn't any information I'll just give you my first Ino well I need your info man cuz I'm talking to you brother cuz you're the person that they called on so Mara's first name n it's Jo what's that it's just just just like that I'm not going to giv my information right now okay why not just just just okay now now here here's the thing brother I'm going to be honest with you Mr Martinez yeah now me asking you for your information is nothing illegal I'm just I'm just asking you because you're the person they called on I I need to find out who you are and you're telling me one thing so I got to call the property manager and ask them if they were the ones that allowed you on the property yeah that's that's the investigation right yeah yeah so I need your name brother well I gave you my last name and you just's your you could just call the the property man and and you have idea I do you mind if I see it I do okay why is that brother cuz I I don't want to be difficult man cuz you I trying to as long as as long as I'm Cooperative with you you're Cooperative with me man this goes a lot smoother for both of us okay well we'll leave it like this and we can call it Cho I'll give you my last name and that's about it cuz at the end of the day I don't I'm not legal provided to give you the full name I'll just just leave it at the last name bro okay well here's the thing is brother and I I I don't know I I don't know where you heard this from or what but since I'm investigating what's going on in this property and you're the one that matches the description I need to know who I'm talking to now if if you want to take this further you want to complain you want to whatever it's up to you brother but see look I'm coming I'm coming to you respectfully bro what was Ito Mendes menes men so I'm just investigating what's going on bro now if you fail to ID yourself I'm asking you lawfully to see who who you are you're the one making it difficult now if you want to impair my my my investigation that's fine that's on you okay but I don't think you want to take it to that extent brother for giving me your name and date of birth that no you have I I do Jo him oh no okay okay okay so I'm going to warn you now I'm going to out brother you don't give me your ID or your full name I'm going to arrest you for failure to ID okay this I'm investigating brother that's all I'm doing okay okay okay it's fine like that okay I'll give you my my name after after what I say this okay all I need is your name and date of birth bro that's it I'm not asking you I'm not and I'm a ludent here too so I'm I'm not asking you for blood sample I'm not asking for your DNA all I'm asking that's a c some identification okay correct so I'm going to investiga HS are not are not reasonable Artic suspicion to suspect man of a crime under Florida versus j under the but I'm not here to argue with you yeah I'm not here to argue def my so I'm asking I'm asking okay that has nothing to do with me cuz I don't know you it doesn't it doesn't I don't know you either officer I thought you were I thought you were chill officer when you go down like hey my hands whatever they're like he okay he'll respect my rights I'll just get my last name you're the one making this difficult all I'm asking you for is your name it's really not difficult and it's not impeding your investigation cuz it's not a physical or it doesn't or it doesn't my giv you my Ida doesn't you're a law school you're a law student sir so you got to understand sir I'm investigating okay you match the description of the gentleman that was in the yard okay so that's the only reason why I'm asking yes they said that you were in the yard yeah it say you were in the so that's the only reason why I'm asking you yes brother and I'm not I'm not going to run your name I'm not all I'm do is that to made contact with you and that's it but now now now you're making it bigger than it is because all I'm asking is for name and date of birth you don't want to give me your ID just give me your name and date of birth and that's it unfortunately the state Tak yeah dude you have to identify yourself man you're making is more said you got you're making this bigger than it is brother okay we go on wait all I have is Martinez you were giving me your first name like like a normal person would okay my name is not going to help you in your investigation first of all yeah but I made contact with you that's the only contact is not enough Reasonable Suspicion for you SE identification you're not being placed under arrest or anything brother okay that's okay are you asking for my name I'm asking for your full name brother okay if you're asking for my name I I I exercise my Fifth Amendment right to remain silence if you're demanding my ID I'm not demanding I did never demand all I said is give it to me okay now here's the problem I'm investigating okay ask for my identification or I'm asking you for name and date of birth that's all I'm asking for ask asking right that's it brother I'll don't answer [Applause] questions all right man so if you want to play this car with me man I got I got no you know what you don't need a supervisor cuz this what's going to happen is dude I'm going to place you under arrest for failure ID okay and that's going to be on you so you already said that it's going to be under arrest I will be under arrest if I don't geted go brother go so I'll give you an idea now no no no put your hands on the car you already failed to identify yourself okay give me your left give me your right arm you got you want to play games brother I'm I'm here being nice and you don't want to give me your name and date a bur and then all this just for a car bro that's it okay read car so we can impound it yeah say he just purchased it all right come on bro okay all right stand right there no no you're staying right there cuz you're going to my unit you're under arrest all right go take second there first time on the back of the car and you see you're lawsuit bro and no you'll see you'll see you'll see when we get to the station we see when you get to the station we see here what we usually see with these incidents and that is that the police officer doesn't really have any investigation the only thing he's investigating is the individual he's talking to it's a fishing Expedition he wanted his ID and he wanted to search his car that's exactly what he ended up doing look at this he gets the ID and then he searches the guy's car wait what was the investigation again why why was he there again I forgot that was in his wallet yeah well thank God you roll down dude did you have keys on him no there's no keys supposedly he he was telling me that he lost them inside he just bought this car from inside that's what he told me there's a couple of Grinders but there's nothing illegal right now he's saying he just bought this car inside the lot and uh he was in there looking for parts and he dropped the keys in there so he's waiting he was waiting for locksmith to start the car so um I need to call the owner to see if it if it's true so what you want to do you want to impound it or what this car yeah yeah yeah yeah you go for failure to ID man during an investigation what is that I can also charge him with um what is that uh interference in my investigation so one again there's no actual police work being achieved here there's no service to the community being provided no crimes are being solved this guy is just um getting retaliated against by this police officer because the officer feels that he can do that because he's going to force this law student to respect his authority so looking at the time stamps on the body cam it's about an hour later when the guy's in jail and then the supervisor arrives and he lets him out basically apologizes and you'll see what happens sir I'm the supervisor here I was just made aware of what happened yeah um so I don't think it qualifies for any crime okay doesn't qualify for Crime I'm going go ahead and release it of course um I I want that op Das number oh my God I'm so [ __ ] piss let me finish okay what's your bch number mine yeah or your name Sergeant procopio 57 I'll give you okay yeah I'm going get all cameras dash cam body cam phone calls everything it did not constitute a crime look what what he did talk over here oh the lights working uh my belongings let me go get it yeah like I said I just got here and I'll was just brief of the incident I'm trying to get all the facts of what happened yeah so based on what he told me like I said I cons to the F ID time but let me get in for you oh let me go talk to the depy first can you get them here just so you can educate them and so it doesn't happen again and that's why I want to get with you but I want to ask him some questions first yeah that okay yeah and they're like okay but I'm not going to give you my name cuz I'm not legally required to give it to you right now M I'm a law student I let him know too an MSU criminal justice major let him know I'm a law student and under Florida versus JL uh an anonymous call or a call is not enough Reasonable articulable Suspicion to articulate a crime because R is only based on the facts known to the officer right M so I told and he was like I don't want to hear like give me your ID no he he wasn't demanding he was asking you know I'm asking you for your name I'm asking I'm asking I'm asking and then until he said well now I'm going to you and as you can tell I'm a really cordial gu I'll talk to you whatever don't disrespect me obviously someone randomly goes up to you asking you for your name and stuff just nothing it's not something you do it's self respect what I was doing he arrests me makes fun of my studies makes fun of everything like okay you think it's funny now but your super and I when we were over there too I told them call your supervisor you don't need a supervisor just turn around and put your hands I this all this could have been Sav if you would have called you you would have gone there and you said hey yeah unfortunately I was barely made aware of it yeah and he he he's like no you don't need a supervisor took me in and I told him with a smile in my face this is not what you want to do man this is this is really not what you want to do okay let me go meet with him so they also search my car without without consent so I guess like you said this is does not look good for the Department I'm going say it as far as searching it I understand that the deputy made a mistake mhm and when the person it's arrested we have to do what we call an inventory yeah it's an inventory it's all part it's not separate from but when it's a when it's an unlawful arrest that makes an unlawful search it's an unlawful it was this this whole thing was unlawful the moment he put his hands on me that was unlaw be this whole situation became unlawful therefore that was unlawful search I lost the guy that was going to give me a key so now now I have to call someone to come and pick me up and the car is going to have to stay wherever it's at still I I can't get a hand of a of a slots with right now so how can we fix it okay the deputy made a mistake that's going to be addressed of course well where's the deputy you said he was going to be here he's here but I want to meet with you first okay my understanding is that uh someone called M and said that there was suspicious activity m i get it it's not a crime it's not but that's enough reason to detain someone not detain it's enough wishon to make contact when you legally detaining someone that's already a cease of someone's person because you temporarily are ceasing that person onto your Authority because if you tell me I'm detained I can't walk off right that's a question like if if you say you're detain can I just walk off when you investigate possible Tres or possible that's that's not my question my question is if you're detained can can I just walk off like if you said hey you the answer to Sir yeah you can if it's a consensual if it's a consensual like for example like if you see talking about consensual kind yeah if you see me like jumping a fence I that's enough Reasonable Suspicion to say okay I think he's burglarizing their house if whatever it is the case whatever but that's that's or if some but if someone causes say oh I saw this guy that looks like like me right now uh jumping off fence that is not that's enough for you to say hey you're matching a description where were you that's that's a consensual encounter you don't you don't go and say hey you're detained because we suspect you of trespassing because suspicion is based on the facts known to the officer not to the not not to the that's enough for what that's enough for so the detention was off are you saying the detention was the fell ID in the arrest was not so this whole thing became un he first off he never said that I was detained never once said that I was detained I'm trying to answer your questions okay okay this question okay going back to what happened today he never said that I was detained so as far as I'm concerned I could have walked off because if you're just asking or it's a consensual encounter I can make it UNC consensual and just walk away there's a lot of what is yeah I mean I can sit here and say that but that's why I'm trying to find the facts first from you then from the deputy and then we'll move on question okay I'm done with my story we can have the deputy and give his okay let's put it this way if he comes here and apologizes to me I won't litigate this whole thing it's up to you I mean I I can always my job is obviously make it better for you um let me go talk to so the law student basically is asking for an apology and the supervisor is going back and forth and he actually goes and gets the arresting officer and brings him in in and it sounds like there may be an apology yes so have anything to say to me no you said you you laughed at me said that I was a d l did I did okay did you or did you not did I did you say that I was a dumb lost no I didn't say where you learn ler I no no sir you got me into the cruiser it's on your body too it's on my phone too you got we got got into the cruiser and you said like you're a really dumb when we getting here in the station you're a really dumb law student aren't you gets me you get me in through the thing and you start making fun oh everybody look at him he's a law student he a law and you left me in there with the cuffs on okay and and I told you didn't I told you that what you were doing was unlawful did you believe me no not I didn't believe I did you get the supervisor when I ask you to no you said I didn't need one no I said I never said you body the camera my phone don't you ask for supervisor Bo what did I tell you you said you don't need one turn around and put your hands behind your back no I told you we're not going to get one until we get to the station you know what you don't need a supervisor cuz what's going to happen is dude I'm going to place you under arrest for failure ID okay and that's going to be on you not me brother you know what you don't need a supervisor no no you didn't on your body cam I I wouldn't I wouldn't disrespect my supervisor like that man because we were in the motions and you know and I'm in the wrong I really am I'm not going to lie to you brother okay you are in the wrong and I told you you were in the wrong and I told you you were going and I told you all this and what you thought was funny I never thought it was funny no you laugh funny were your comments brother that's it what were my comments your comments that you're saying Florida code this I'm going to get a new must Florida versus JL that's K you don't know I can tell because you unlawfully arrested him it wasn't a mistake he broke the law it's not a mistake and that's all word that's why we're here and now you are going to buy me a new Miss You Are cuz now all this that's going to get for you that request your dash count in your car everything my phone your batch numbers everything's going to come into one single file record it's going to come in here tomorrow and that's going to go straight to my attorney and how do you think and you lost your qualified immunity right now right now so it's get out control um you said something different to me before take off I'll take your complete okay uh do you have the complaint for I can fill up no I have to fill up myself is there anything else besides what you told me at first that has changed or anything else that we have to add to your no that's fine I'll see you in court so the way the supervisor was looking at it he's trying to resolve the situation he brings the arresting officer in and things sort of go off the rails at that point the arresting officer admits that it was a bad arrest the law student just sort of let him have it when he gets when he says you've lost qualified immunity at that point the supervisor realizes that this was a mistake and he calls the whole thing off now the kid can just make a complaint we know how that goes so I pulled two different recent 10th circuit opinions that you can review one is United States versus balance from 2022 and the other one is United States versus gains from 2021 these go over the the B basic law there regarding Reasonable Suspicion the fourth amendment protects against unreasonable surges and seizures however that does not prevent police officers from making a brief investigatory stop of a person when they have a particularized and objective basis for suspecting that particular person of criminal activity the Reasonable Suspicion needed to justify this stop depends upon both the content of information possessed by the police and its degree of reliab ability the courts look to the totality of the circumstances the whole picture in order to determine whether the police have a reasonable suspicion a mere hunch is not enough so these principles apply with full force to investigative stops based on information from anonymous tips the Supreme Court has struck a delicate balance on when an anonymous tip can provide a reasonable suspicion for one of these investigatory stops and the court has noted that in anonymous tip alone seldom demonstrates the informant's basis of knowledge or veracity and seldom therefore supplies Reasonable Suspicion the court nonetheless has acknowledged that under appropriate circumstances an anonymous tip can demonstrate sufficient indish of reliability to provide Reasonable Suspicion to make an investigatory stop and the court noted that in United States versus Chavez an earlier 10th circuit opinion we summarized the most important factors we usually consider in anonymous tip situations one whether the informant lacked true anonymity whether the police knew some details about the informant or had means to discover them secondly whether the informant reported contemporaneous firsthand knowledge third whether the informant provided detailed information about the events observed four the informant's stated motivation for reporting the information and five whether the police were able to corroborate information provided by the informant so the informant has to be reliable you can't just the police can't just say well we got a call not only does that call have to report some sort of suspected criminal activity but it has to be reliable and those are the factors that the 10th circuit specifically will look at you can really get into the Weeds on whether the police were objectively reasonable in relying on this anonymous tip or Anonymous call that they received but in these videos you will see police officers that will just well we got a call we got a call about a suspicious person you got a call from who was it the property owner was it some do you know who the person is do you know whether this person is reliable was this person reporting um criminal activity you can't just say we got a call you you have to go into the substance of the call the identity of the caller in order to determine whether or not that information um is objetive ly Reasonable Suspicion in order to justify you forcibly detaining a citizen it doesn't matter whether the police academy taught you well you're making contact you got a call so you're making contact step one is to get the person's name and date of birth no the Supreme Court didn't say anything about that the 10th circuit didn't say anything about that Reasonable Suspicion is the standard it can get very complicated but the important thing is is that criminal activity must have been reported or suspected and and that must be objectively reasonable in particular to the person you see the word particularized in all of this case law what does that mean has to be particular allegations about a particular individual so here we don't know the details and that's what I think we need to know is who called the cops what is their identity What specifically was reported that's why step one and investigating a CRI civil rights violation and and evaluating whether or not you want to file a lawsuit is you need to using a foyer request or whatever means are available get that 911 call so you can see what was reported to the police what did dispatch say yes it can be a complicated issue that's step one so as always thanks for watching please subscribe both here and at the blog at the civils lawyer.com also follow me on Twitter at John Brian Esq or on Facebook at the John H Bryant attorney at law page if you have a video that you want me to review or you want to submit please use the submission link below remember our rights don't end where your fear begins freedom is scary deal with [Music] it