good afternoon this is Daniel here with
Copwatch TV uh just want to welcome
everyone into our live show we're going
to break down some of the most
interesting and important cases that
happened in policing across the country
from this past week I just want to
welcome everybody in and real curious to
see where everybody is watching from so
if you want to go ahead and put in the
comments where you're watching from and
again just like we do every week while
I'm going through some of these
interesting and you know pretty
controversial police cases um you know
if you have any comments or it's real
possible that you're going to have a
different opinion than me so make sure
you put that in the comments so we can
have some discussion about this a little
bit of a road map of of of where we're
going to be going today I'm going to
talk about a couple cases that kind of
have a theme about officers being
crashed into and then also we're going
to talk about two officer involved
shooting cases both of them are
controversial one I think is a
reasonable and Justified officer
involved shooting but the other one I
don't and you know I posted a story
about this either on on on my substack
about one of these cases and I really
got some push back and people were
asking really thoughtful and good
questions and I know that the the the
the audience we have here on Copwatch TV
is about 10 IQ points higher than about
on any of my other social media channels
so I'm definitely expecting to get some
really good feedback and probably push
back on some of these cases um all right
so if you haven't already please go
ahead and um follow us and make sure you
subscribe to the channel and share it
with friends and famili so we can get as
many people in here not just for the
live show that we do on Fridays but also
to watch and comment on our videos of
the most raw body cam footage um that we
find from across the country let's see
uh Sig spear says retired life now
absolutely so this is uh as I said I I
did retire uh two weeks ago so this past
week was my was pretty much my first
week of being retired from the
Albuquerque Police Department so um yeah
it was a it was a uh it was a a nice
week and boys there's some news going on
uh in my uh former police department and
um we talked about that the last time
that we were on here um but all right so
you know the first thing that I'm going
to talk about in and and actually I
wasn't going to talk about this at first
but you know I just saw two you know
viral body camera videos from the last
couple days so I'm I'm going to start
the show out this way you know when when
I was working as a as a an officer on on
patrol basically a a a patrol officer um
in a in kind of a large violent city and
also as a DWI officer where all I did
was you know stop cars all night I was
never really afraid that I was going to
be injured or killed by a criminal I I
was never afraid of making traffic stops
in shitty areas and shitty neighborhoods
in the middle of the night I was never
afraid of that but what I always was
afraid of was being hit by a car while I
was on a traffic stop that's what I was
always afraid of and you know it really
wasn't so much even though it that
honestly could happen anywhere whether
you're on a side street whether you're
on a on a highway but for whatever
reason being on a highway that always
gave me the creeps just a little bit so
here's what I would do and I'm curious
if we have any any other any other uh
any other police officers in here can
say if they do something similar or not
one of the things that I would always do
if I stopped a car on the highway is I
would always wait right until about the
exit you know maybe as the vehicle is
approaching an exit that's why I would
try to stop because I would always want
them to go down the exit and stop there
sometimes they would pass the exit or
you would just have to make a traffic
stop that really wasn't near an exit so
what I would always do is I would
usually run up to the car and I would
always introduce myself I would grab the
person's driver's license and I would
say hey get why don't you go down to the
next exit get off there and we'll do it
there I would never conduct an entire
full traffic stuff unless I absolutely
had to on the highway it was always just
a that was always something I was always
afraid of um we had two cases recently
one in Oklahoma City and one in Michigan
so I said Oklahoma City this is in the
state of Oklahoma so there was an
Oklahoma State Trooper um his name is uh
Jesse Gregory and he was on a traffic
stop and he was as he was talking to the
driver this is in the middle of the day
so it's not like it's at night where you
know you might expect there to be a
bunch of drunk drivers out this is in
the middle of the day and he's pulled
over on the side of the highway and he's
making a passenger side contact with the
driver of the with the driver of the
vehicle as uh Trooper Gregory is making
this contact a vehicle that's traveling
in the right lane just smashes into the
car and he goes flying he goes flipping
and flying and um you know the video the
the his dash cam does show him able to
get up but he does have some minor
injuries um you know this is a case that
honestly could have been a lot worse so
Trooper Gregor
um he called it the scare of his life
but you know what after a couple weeks
he said that he wants to come back on
onto Patrol as soon as possible also um
the driver that he had pulled over had
injuries but was not killed and the
driver of the vehicle who caused the
crash also um was not killed either um
though everyone suffered some minor
injuries but no one killed and a crash
like that at it speeds you know 67 miles
an hour that is something that you know
you can anticipate that might end
someone's life um however there was
another case in Michigan there was a
Michigan State Trooper named Joel pop
who was killed this week as well um he
was assisting with a a DUI investigation
and while he was assisting with the DUI
investigation um there was a driver who
came up behind him who not only crashed
into two police cars but also crashed
into Trooper uh Trooper um uh uh Trooper
Pop and Joel Pop um he did he did uh
sustain uh fatal injuries um and he you
know he's a 39y old he had been on for
several years a survived by his wife and
kid so it's an absolute uh tragic thing
um but we did have that happen happen
twice um you know thankfully Trooper
Gregory was able to survive and
unfortunately um Michigan State Trooper
Joel pop did not um it's it's a very
it's a very sad thing but you can find
all the information about that on social
media if you go ahead and Google it um
all right so the first case I'm going to
talk about is this is a case that
happened in New York City and kind of
with the same theme that that we've been
talking about um but this is actually a
really strange case so um this happened
on January 17th so you know just just
last week or so in New York City and
there's a woman her name is Sahara Doula
um so apparently she has a bachelor's
degree in criminal justice and she works
in the area and she works in the area of
you know basically like mentoring and
counseling kids in order to keep them on
the right track well they are in New
York City and she's driving the wrong
way down the street so you know you got
you get Northbound traffic and
southbound traffic she is going the
wrong way on the street and then she
kind of stopped I don't know if she
realizes she's going the wrong way on
the street but she pretty much stops her
car um it's at that point that an NYPD
officer realizes what's going on he's
traveling the correct way he's traveling
the correct way um on on the the road he
stops his car and you know Miss Doula
her vehicle is stopped as well so he
gets out and he's going to approach her
on foot like this makes sense you know
this makes sense for him to do this
because she stopped you know in order to
make contact with her one you this is
something that you might see a drunk
driver do even though this was during
the day this is something going the
wrong way that it could be a drunk
driver it could be a tourist who's never
been in New York City before I mean I
know like I've been in different cities
that I've never been before and streets
have been one way and I didn't realize
it so it could just be an honest
innocent person who didn't realize they
were going the wrong way and you know
the trooper being able to get out make
contact with the driver I've had to do
that as a police officer multiple times
that you know someone is is going the
wrong way on a oneway street you stop
you go Hey listen this is the wrong way
this is where you turn around then I
would always give people a plan I always
say I'm like Hey listen here's what I'm
goingon to do I'm going to block traffic
over here as soon as I do I'm going to
let you know that's when it's safe for
you to go ahead and make a U-turn so it
seems like that's what the trooper or
that's what the NYPD officer was going
to do so the NYPD officer starts
approaching the vehicle on foot and she
goes from a dead stop he starts telling
her like you know stop and he's kind of
waving at her and as he's going and as
he's going um as he's going towards her
um as he's going towards her um he uh as
he's going towards her she accelerates
the vehicle and crashes right into him
he flips over the car he crashes and he
flips over the car and he breaks his leg
um afterwards she gave a statement she
said I told the cop I wanted to go
straight and he wouldn't move so I hit
him I did it on purpose these cops
he wouldn't move these cops it's a
lesson to him and hopefully he doesn't
want to be a cop anymore I mean not only
is she facing multiple felony charges
but she is just goddamn awful um so
hopefully she's going to be in jail for
a while on that the video of that is
absolutely absolutely crazy I mean there
was no reason to do that again it wasn't
like it was an accident I mean she saw
the officer not only did she strike the
officer in a deliberate fashion but then
she admitted that that she struck the
officer in a deliberate fashion um yeah
I'm real curious to see what you guys
have to say about that case let Mile
High says people are crazy nowadays
absolutely Da Vinci says could be an an
international tourist with opposite
Lanes yeah absolutely that that's 100%
you know what that's a really good point
because as a police officer you don't
know it could be someone who's a drunk
driver or it could be someone who's
having a medical issue or it could be
someone you know who again who is just
either a tourist or someone who never
goes into New York City and is confused
either way you know as a police officer
you don't know you kind of have to keep
your guard up what you're not typically
expecting is to someone as you're
walking towards there now as you're
walking towards the vehicle I've had
this happen hundreds of times as you're
walking towards the vehicle the vehicle
takes off because they have a warrant
they're drunk there's a th maybe they
don't want contact with police there's a
thousand different reasons so the
vehicle fleeing I mean that isn't that
surprising but striking the officer
intentionally striking the officer as
you're driving away that is surprising
that's not something that I would expect
um uh yeah so that that was that case
happened in New York City Sahara Doula
so she's facing multiple felony charges
as she should um all right so we're
going to go ahead and talk about this
officer involved shooting case and you
know this is one of those this happened
in Mesa Arizona a man named David Deus
is the one who was uh shot by police
officers you know this is one of those
cases where I so everyone has their own
system if you're interested in this kind
of stuff which I think anybody watching
the show is interested or watching this
channel is interested in police body
camera video so when I hear about a case
um you know an officer involved shooting
the first thing I do is watch the body
camera footage I don't read what anybody
says I don't want to know what donut
operator says about a case I don't know
what my friends over at uh failure to
stop and com Center say about a case I
want to know a I want to watch the body
cam video for myself and then I want to
get you know an impression of what
happened and then you know then I go
from there and a lot of times after I
kind of have my initial feelings about
the case then I'll go ahead and I will
um look to see what other people said
about a case so that's what I did in
this case this case with d David Deus
over in Mesa Arizona um it was an off
involved shooting you I watched the body
camera video and I watched the body
camera video one time and I was like oh
this is this is this isn't good
and I started to think about all the
different questions that I would ask or
want to know if I was the investigator
on this case because that's how I see
these officer involved shootings because
I was in Internal Affairs and compliance
looking at these cases you know from an
investigator standpoint I think oh my
God I want to ask the officer this this
this and those that's kind of how I look
at these officer involved shooting cases
so let me tell you what happened in this
case and then I'll go ahead and explain
kind of what my questions are and you
know kind of where where I ended up with
this case and again really curious to
see what your thoughts are about some of
this stuff so again so this started as a
domestic violence call for service it
was a family fight call um and basically
the caller said that an individual a
27-year-old guy named David Deus um he
was a family member and that he was
having some kind of a mental health
Break um what the call said is that he
had actually locked himself in a in in a
shed on the property and that he started
setting a fire inside the shed they also
told police officers that um that he had
a knife in there with him and that he
was um possibly you know some type of a
suicide attempt some type of of an
attempt at self harm so the police
officers get their unseen and the first
thing that I notice is that they came
they came to this they came to this call
with a force array now here's what I
mean by that a force array is basically
when police officers have multiple
different options of force to use at one
time this is a good thing because what
we want police officers to do is to have
a whole bunch of different options to
utilize so that lethal Force having to
use their firearms hopefully that
doesn't have to happen and listen the
more less lethal options that are
present on scene typically the less
likely that it's going to go to the way
of having you know a lethal officer uh
or having an officer involved shooting
um so I saw I saw that there was a force
right I thought good they're approaching
this thing just like I would want them
to so it seems like before they made the
approach to the house that they had some
kind of a conversation because one of
the officers was armed with a taser one
of the officers um had a bean bag
shotgun and then another officer did
have lethal Force I thought well you
know what if I was creating an All-Star
team to kind of go to this call for
service that's pretty much what I would
want I would want a taser in case the
individuals you know 10 or 15 feet away
I would want a bean bag shotgun if they
were a little bit further out and then
you obviously you have an off officer
whose responsibility is to use lethal
Force if it goes that way um and then I
saw the officers they made contact with
the caller so they didn't just like
Rambo run up to their un scene
and start banging on the shed no what
the officers did is they made contact
with the caller and that's a good thing
to do right like yes someone might be
setting a fire they might be they might
be harming themselves but H having some
information or getting some kind of
information from the caller could really
help the police officers because you
want to ask hey does he have access to
weapons is there a gun in there does he
have you know has he not taken any
medication is there any trigger is there
anything that if I say to him he's going
to lose his mind so I'll make
sure that I maybe he doesn't like to
talk about the Arizona Diamond back so
I'm not going to mention the
Arizona Diamond Backs thank you I don't
want to push this guy over the edge
these are the reasonable things that
police officers have conversations with
family members um prior to prior to um
making uh prior to making contact so
what the officers did that then they
went ahead and they made contact then
they made contact over at the at the
shed and um Mr Deus he ended up coming
out of the shed but here's what he did
he basically had they called it fabric
but if you look it was really like a
sweater he basically had his hands
underneath a sweater he has he has his
hands underneath a sweater and he's
walking towards the police officer so
now what the police officers thought
okay this guy has a knife but they can't
see what is underneath his sweater cuz
he's holding his hands and they're
giving him commands like hey get on the
ground show us your hands they're giving
him all of these commands that you would
expect a police officer to do in a
situation like this because the officers
don't know what's under his hands and
then Mr Deus does something that is just
absolutely the only thing I can say is
like you should not do this what he did
with his hands from underneath from
under from when they're concealed by the
sweater he basically took a shooting
stance and he held his hands out like
this like he was holding a gun so again
the officers not being able to see
what's underneath that he held it up and
took a shooting stance like he was
holding a gun or about to fire a gun it
was at that point that a police officer
deployed a taser at the same time a
police officer deployed uh the bean bag
shotgun and literally at the same time
another police officer fired his handgun
so they fired all three at the same time
um uh you know and that was that was my
question about this um is that so the
main question that I had is that so we
have officers use utilizing less lethal
and lethal at the same time I need to
know a little more about this because
that doesn't seem right here's why
because typically What in in a perfect
world and again when you're going into
these situations with a police officer
nothing is perfect nothing is textbook
what you what I would want to see is for
a police officer to utilize from a
distance less lethal force and then to
kind of evaluate hey did that work are
they are they under power from the taser
did it work are they capacitated can we
see their hands and from that position
can we place them in the handcuffs can
we re-evaluate do we need to deploy more
or less lethal something like that but
what I would love to see is the entire
purpose of less lethal force is to use
that so that we don't have to use lethal
force from handguns that's what we want
to happen so typically you know what
happens is after less lethal force is
utilized you kind of wait and see hey
did that work or not where are we going
to go from there but all three weapon
systems were deployed at the same time
so on its face that didn't make a whole
lot of sense to me so I had to do some
research and really think about this
case and really watch the body camera
video pretty pretty um pretty carefully
now one of the things that kind of
changed my mind on this case is that
what was actually underneath that what
was actually underneath that fabric it
was a cordless drill so a cordless drill
is literally the sh the same pretty much
the same shape and size as a gun so I
want to look at okay what would a
reasonable officer think so if we go the
only way that this officer involved
shooting is objectively reasonable you
know within the law and within
Department policy and within training is
if the officer who fired the fired the
handgun had a reasonable belief that you
know there was there was a a chance of
uh an imminent chance of death or great
bodily injury well if someone is
pointing a gun at you yes that would
meet that criteria so okay so I looked
and it it was a cordless drill so
essentially he was holding a cordless
drill in a shooting stance um it's
reasonable that the police Poli officer
would think that he was holding a gun
underneath there because that's what it
looked like and then you have to think
okay well if the officer if it's
reasonable for the officer to believe
that Mr Deus was pointing a gun at him
what's a reasonable response is you
utilizing a firearm and you utilizing
deadly force is that a reasonable
response to having a gun pointed at you
and the answer is yes so the fact that
the two other officers utilize a taser
and a bean bag shotgun at the exact same
time that's really a moot point that
really just isn't that relevant if we're
looking at what the officer did in the
moment and again those officers they
only had those weapon systems in their
hand those has only had those weapon
systems in their hand and again he came
out and he pretty much put it up almost
almost right away so if you're holding a
taser you would have to holster the
taser and then pull out the handgun and
there really isn't time for that so the
idea is the officer see a threat even
though it may not maybe it's not enough
Force which again if someone is pointing
a gun at you a taser is clearly not
enough Force but if that's the weapon
system you happen to have in your hand a
quick reaction of pulling the trigger
like I understand those officers doing
that so I do think that if we look at
this case that this officer involved
shooting was objectively reasonable but
this is one again I watched the body
camera one time and I go what the hell
is this we're using lethal and less
lethal at the same time this doesn't
make a whole lot of sense and I really
had to think about it a whole lot see
it's a good thing that I'm retired from
the police department and actually had
time this week to really think about
this case um all right let's see what
some of you guys think about this cjun
Randy says the standard should be what a
reasonable person would think oh I like
that cjun Randy thank you so much so so
the reason why that's not the standard
and I oh cun Randy I'm was gonna say
thank you so much for asking that
question it's a really thoughtful
question the reason why cun Randy is
it's not what a reasonable person would
think it's what a reasonable officer
would think is because police officers
have special training not special
training that's a weird thing for me to
say they have extra training or training
on how to do that job so it's based what
would a reasonable police officer do but
Randy it's not just for police officers
we actually have this reasonable person
standard for almost anything if you have
a doctor okay who is performing a so one
of the individuals that I went to law
school with was this really smart guy he
was uh urologist so he was a urologist
and he would do all kinds of surgeries
you you think why would a urologist be
in law school he was getting ready to
retire anyways you know he basically
explain to me so so he testifies before
he was an attorney he would testify you
know in Trials as an expert witness for
doctors who you know botched Urology um
Urology uh surgeries you know he would
he would would he would testify either
on behalf of them or you know basically
whatever he thought was was correct and
you know so it couldn't be looking at
what what would happened in a situation
like that is it wouldn't be what would a
reasonable person think is is the thing
to do in this Urology surgery that's
insane I'm a cop with a law degree I
should not be put into that box of what
I would think that a urologist should do
but Dr Robert should because he's a
urologist the same thing if it comes to
a bus driver I've never driven a bus
driver I can barely drive my car okay so
what if a bus driver is is in a crash I
don't have a CDL so or or a pilot or I
could think of a thousand different
examples but that would just really take
a whole bunch of time so I'm not going
to but you can understand why when
there's something that specific that the
standard is you know what would a
reasonable police officer do what would
a reasonable pilot do taking someone off
the street who has zero pilot training
is saying hey dude what do you think
about that um was that a reasonable
thing that doesn't make sense you would
have experts in the field have some type
of standard and criteria and say Yes
based on the law policy and training
this is what a reasonable officer would
do and here's why so I hope that makes
sense cage and Randy it's all in the
case uh Graham versus Connor um that's
where this reasonable uh reasonable
officer standard comes in and again if
you go into other if you go into other
other um Industries or jobs or or cases
it's always going to be like you know
what would a reasonable plumber do what
would a reasonable um I think everybody
gets the point but that was that was
actually a really really really good
question um so yeah so to me that
officer involved shooting um is is
objectively reasonable even though at
the onset of it like I didn't I didn't
think it was I didn't think it was
reasonable but no I'm at the point I'm
at the point that it is I think it's
within the dep Department policy and and
it's definitely legal um let's see uh Da
Vinci says did you hear about the Shane
prior escaping custody teen murder
suspect how did that happen uh Da Vinci
yes so I did hear about that case um I
saw a little bit about it I'll be honest
I haven't Dove deep into it before um so
I can't really talk a whole lot about it
but that is something I can look for for
next week um that I did hear about it
but I haven't looked into it a whole lot
but I can definitely uh put that on my
list for next week the Shane prior
escaping custody case he's a teen murder
suspect and I think he's still on the
Loose as far as as far as I uh read last
night um all right so the next officer
involved shooting that I'm I'm going to
talk about is you know this is an
officer R Val shooting that I I don't
think that the shooting is objectively
reasonable um I expect the officer to
face charges for this case and again I
also wrote an article about this case
and was talking about it with people on
on on on Twitter and I did get a lot of
push back you know a lot of people
saying you know basically saying that no
this is this is a good shooting this
one's legal Dan you don't know what
you're talking about like and I'm I'm
going to say no I don't think this one
is is a legal officer involved shooting
but again I'm really curious to see what
you guys think so while I'm going
through this you tell me right track
wrong track you tell me if you think I'm
correct or if I'm not correct so here's
what happened in this case so this
happened in Weber County Utah um uh
Weber County Utah on New Year's Eve of
this year so um basically deputies with
the Weber County Sheriff's Office in
Utah were dispatched to a possible drunk
driver call I know what you're thinking
because this is what I was thinking um
it's I I I get that it's Utah and
there's you know maybe not as much
drinking there but um still uh any any
place on in on New Year's Eve is going
to have dozens hundreds thousands of
drunk drivers right so the idea that you
know we're going to put this much effort
into getting one there was a and there
was a lot of uh and there was a lot of
uh uh drunk there was a lot of um uh uh
there are a lot of drunk drivers out on
New Year's Eve the idea that we're going
to put a lot of resources towards any
one call probably doesn't make a whole
lot of sense and that's what I thought
initially until I looked into this case
so so here's basically how this came
came about um uh an individual called
dispatch and said hey I I want to report
a drunk driver and the dispatch again
it's New Year's Eve they're probably
getting a thousand calls like this right
so the dispatcher goes well how do you
know they're drunk and the guy says uh
because he just left my house he picked
up his keys he's drunk and then um so
that that gives a little more
information then the uh the caller gives
um says who the guy is gives a
description of the of the vehicle gives
the license plate he also then says hey
there's also three other miners in the
car with this guy and there's more
alcohol in the call then the then the
caller takes a step further and goes he
was I actually have the live tracking
and location on the car so I know where
it is and what the speed is well this is
a situation where it's not just hey
someone called in a drunk driver at the
intersection of uh Sycamore and Central
um okay fine you look look for a blue
BMW no no I mean this guy knew the exact
precise location of where this vehicle
was it was a friend of his or a family
member but um you know but so it was the
it was the idea that you know the
officers could track exactly where this
drunk driver was and saying hey there's
three miners in the car with this drunk
driver that pretty much made it a
situation where police are going to put
for lack of a better term more effort
into trying to find this guy so um the
police officers you know basically with
the help of the caller were able to
locate this vehicle um they located the
vehicles a blue BMW they um initiated
traffic stop and the driver fled um the
driver fled um fled didn't want to have
anything to do with police officers the
driver fled um police ended up inti
initiating a a Pursuit on this um
Riverdale Utah city police officers they
also got involved in this case and were
part part of the chase it went through a
couple different cities and this County
um during it um uh the the vehicle at
one point during it at one point the
vehicle did pull into a culdesac and
there were I think three police cars
there pulled into a culdesac and you can
see what I would be thinking is a police
officer like all right we got this we're
going to have him pinned in this guy's
probably going to run like that's what I
would be thinking too so what the police
officers did is as they knew that it was
a culdesac you know they basically
positioned their police cars um they
they they basically positioned their
police cars um so that the vehicle would
make it difficult you know essentially
blocking the road this is what you would
want a police officer to do in a
situation like that um and I um but what
Mr um his name is Carter Ed Edelman is
his name so basically what he did is as
in order to get around the police
officer he drove up onto the sidewalk
around the police cars he actually
clipped the police car as he went by um
speeds got up to over 100 miles hour um
eventually they got to an area and this
is where the officer involved shooting
comes in eventually they get to an area
that's pretty much like a business I
mean this is late at night we're at like
10:00 at night now so they get to
basically it's it's a parking lot with
with a couple different closed
businesses and um an officer is able to
get his his vehicle in front of the BMW
so so you have to imagine this that the
vehicle the officer is in front of the
BMW the vmw is coming towards the police
officer for some reason and this makes
absolutely no sense for some reason the
officer gets out of the car as he gets
out of the car he's standing by the
driver's side the BMW is coming right
towards him the BMW actually gets so
close to the officer that he puts his
left hand down and actually touches the
hood so again this BMW almost hit the
officer almost struck the officer you
know we almost had one of these cases
like the first three cases I described
today almost hit the officer as soon as
the BMW whizzes pass this guy the
officer takes out his firearm and as the
vehicle's driving away he shoots like
five rounds at the car that's the
officer involved shooting right after
that there was a sheriff's department
officer in a in a pickup truck who
basically I didn't do a pit maneuver he
B basically um he was he was
perpendicular and as the as the vehicle
was was was traveling he basically
smashed into the the front driver side
part of the car um there were no know
injuries or major injuries or anything
like that but he did Smash Into the
front driver's side of the car he hit
the tire the tire was disabled that's
how they got Mr Edelman into custody so
that was the officer involved shooting
and thankfully this what we have to say
is no one was struck by the gunfire so
the the there was no passenger who was
struck Mr Edelman wasn't struck
thankfully and I don't think this
officer involved shooting was
objectively reasonable and and I'm going
to explain why so a couple things before
I get to that so when they finally did
arrest Mr Edelman there were not three
teenagers in the car there was one
teenager in the car I think his
girlfriend there was one with there was
one minor in the car and you know
basically what she said is yeah I knew
that he had been drinking um and Mr
Carter or Mr Edelman was 19 years old so
he wasn't old enough to wasn't old
enough to drink in in the first place
but she said yeah I knew that he was
drinking I got it into the car with him
willingly but as soon as as he started
to run from police like I wanted to get
out I didn't want to be there anymore
but there was just no opportunity for me
to Exit the vehicle so I was kind of
stuck um but the officer had been told
the police had been told that there were
three teenagers in the car now think
about this just use common sense if
someone says hey there's a driver and
three passengers in the car what are you
going to think you're going to think
okay there's probably a front seat
passenger and then two backseat
passengers right I mean that's what most
people that would be a reasonable
assumption to make so where I'm going
with this officer involved shooting is
problematic for a lot of different
reasons the first reason that this
officer involved shooting is problematic
is because there was no more threat so
if the car was coming towards the
officer look at that if the car was
coming towards the officer and as the
car is bearing down on the officer the
officer started to fire at the driver I
would say oh okay that's probably a
legal officer involved shooting though
even that I wouldn't love because best
practice is going to say hey guys don't
put yourself in a position position to
where you're going to be right in front
of an oncoming vehicle essentially
that's like officer induced Jeopardy so
that's going to be best practices in
most cases most cases police departments
you know don't have or have a policy
against officers doing that now again
you can't always help it now let's look
at the two cases that we had earlier
today where an officer was not you know
intentionally going in front of someone
but was just doing their thing on the
side of the road on a traffic stop and a
random vehicle comes by them in and come
comes and crashes into them well that's
a situation where that's not officer
induced Jeopardy right that's not
officer um that's not officer induced
induced Jeopardy that's um that's um
that that's an instance where the
officer really couldn't do anything
about it um but you know put
intentionally putting yourself in front
of a c in front of a vehicle and then
getting out of the vehicle I don't know
what the officer was thinking that he
was going to do is as the vehicle passed
by try to have a conversation with the
guy and deescalate the situation so so
again like that that tactically that
doesn't make a whole lot of sense um and
again when he actually fired the shots
the the the vehicle was past him again I
could I don't love it but if a vehicle
is bearing down on you no matter how you
got there if you start firing at the
driver I get it I don't love it but I
get it so one of the reasons why I don't
love it is because let's say you're
successful and let's say as a vehicle is
bearing down on you at 30 40 20 miles an
hour and you shoot the driver great even
if you're successful and you hit your
targets is that necessarily going to
stop the car from hitting you I mean
probably not because now the car is just
out of control right so that doesn't
really fix the problemes does that does
that make sense you may even make
someone who's going 20 M hour maybe if
if they're shot they push further down
on the gas and they start traveling
quicker again it just doesn't solve the
problem getting out of the way that
solves the problem so okay so again when
shooting at a vehicle as it's driving
away like the danger is already gone
like there is no you're not in immediate
danger anymore the second part and
almost a bigger part is that the officer
is no longer in danger is that again
there were three other passengers in the
vehicle if he had been successful and
actually luckily his shots went
everywhere and he didn't hit anything
but had he been successful and actually
been able to shoot the driver he
probably would have hit the passenger
first because there would have been a
back he thought there was a back seat
passenger behind the driver so I don't
know what the officer was thinking hey
this car is driving away I'm not in any
more danger and there's three other
people in the car I'm going to start
firing rounds rounds downrange it
doesn't make any sense and thankfully no
one was struck by this um again it it
doesn't it doesn't make any sense now
the some of the push back that I got in
this is they said well hang on this guy
was driving drunk um that's dangerous
right um he had miners in the car we
agree that's dangerous he had already
intentionally crashed into a police car
so yeah like he's he's an open threat to
not only not only the other cars on the
road but the other officers and to the
teenagers and cops need in deadly force
yeah we can use deadly force because I
can articulate that threats that's I
don't buy that argument cuz otherwise
any drunk driver who crashes or swerves
or weaves or hits a curb that means any
drunk driver who does any of those
things then it would be like cops can
just go ahead and just start shooting
guns at at and start using deadly force
on any drunk driver driving down the
road saying well I mean he's probably a
danger so I got to get him off the road
no we know that's not legal so this
isn't legal either um now again so had
someone actually been been struck by the
officer's weapon I would expect the
officer to face pretty serious charges
thankfully no one was struck so if the
officer does face charges my guess would
be whatever the Utah version of Reckless
and dangerman is essentially think Brett
Hinson Brett Hinson is the officer on
the bana Taylor case who was you know um
in the words of the prosecutor shooting
wildly um into the apartment um not
really sure where he was shooting at
just kind of creating like like a a
danger in general but you know even
though no one was specifically hit Brett
Hinson was actually prosecuted on the
state and the federal level um he's
never been he's never been convicted um
he's never been convicted and um uh
that's you that may be the case in this
case as well um my guess is whatever the
use of force policy is for uh the the
the Sheriff's office there in Utah my
guess this is probably a violation of
that um use of force policy and um I
would expect the officer to face charges
now just because I say that the officer
is probably going to face charges like I
don't find any joy in that right like I
let let's not forget who the real bad
guy is okay the real bad guy is Carter
Edelman who decided to drive drunk not
stop for police officers travel over 100
miles an hour and then crash into police
cars as he's trying to evade basically
putting everybody in danger so the real
bad guy is is Carter Edelman not the
police officer who I'm going to admit in
my opinion he made a mistake in a very
tense situation the situation never
would have been there but for Mr
edelman's actions uh so I'm really
curious to see what you guys have to say
about this officer involved shooting if
you think I'm right track wrong track
like I said I did get some push back um
especially on Twitter and I was
surprised because to me I thought this
was obviously not a reasonable legal
officer involved shooting um and uh okay
so don't have any questions on that so
the last case that I'm I'm going to talk
about today is uh uh this is a little
more a little more crime kind of a stuff
but it's relevant so In-N-Out burer um
In-N-Out Burger um has been in Oakland I
think for over 30 years um the fast food
chain is reportedly closing um up shop
in Oakland uh the store cited the
closure not because there was a lack of
business or they didn't have any
customers or they couldn't find any
workers but due to outof control crime I
mean a business has a duty to
essentially employees and customers to
provide a safe eating environment um I
mean the fact that In-N-Out burger just
simply you know can't provide a safe
location to enjoy that tasty burger um
it just should be staggering to the
people who are actually in charge of
safety in that City the elected leaders
um but clearly the city leaders in
Oakland are are optimistically just kind
of Permitting this chaos instead of
fixing it um you when when a
municipality you know refuses to repair
obvious broken windows that's obvious
signs of social Decay like crime at a at
a burger joint um it's only going to
further um extend the the existence of
of the of of the crime and problem um at
some point some of these systematic
problems um it's no longer just bad
policy um like some type of an outgrowth
or like like some kind of a surprise
consequence of bad policy but like that
this is this is The Logical only
outgrowth of what could happen with
these bad policies um so it's just
absolutely crazy to me that um a burger
joint is closing in California after
being there for over 30 years because
they can't keep their customers and the
city safe and customers and employees
safe um basically in and- Out Burger
said that they went to the city multiple
times and the city just isn't isn't
helping them it's not a safe place um
it's just it's just really sad when we
get to that point in in a in a country
and again like this is all bad policy
because police officers know how to
police officers um know how to enforce
the law and when I put this on social
media earlier they're like well this is
the fault of the police officers for not
enforcing the law and that's great
that's an easy thing to say but there
are there are politicians who run and
manage police departments and that's who
is to blame here so police officers will
only be as effective as the politicians
who manage police officers um are going
to let them uh Daryl Smith says hey
Daniel hey Daryl how are you um all
right so that was the last case that
that we're going to talk about um I just
want to say thank you for everyone being
in we did have one comment earlier that
I'm going to address someone asked if I
uh was going to talk about uh the
officer involved shooting with an
individual I can't remember his first
name but his last name in cob um in
Minnesota so there was a Minnesota
police officer who was essentially just
charged uh that essentially was just
charged with u murder for an officer
involved shooting in Minnesota um so I
was gonna thank you Rich I was going to
talk about that shooting today but I'm
not the reason is is because it's pretty
complicated there's there's a lot going
on with it um so the attorney who
represents the Minnesota uh Police
Officers Association is a guy named
Imran ali um really nice uh really nice
and thoughtful guy actually attended a
use of force conference um in uh
scotdale last year where he was B he was
the one who uh he was with the company
who basically ran it really smart um
really informed guy and he gave a
statement about the officer involved
shooting I'll be honest it's kind of the
same thing I watched the body camera
footage and I'm like uh I don't I don't
love this officer involved shooting or
at least I've got a lot of questions it
isn't one of those where I see the gun
point I go oh yeah okay this is good
I've got a lot of questions not saying
that shooting wasn't Justified or legal
or out of policy I'm saying I've got a
lot of questions on this one and then I
looked at what um and I say Mr Ali is a
really great attorney um he was a
prosecutor in in in uh the Minneapolis
area for a long time before he went into
into private practice and I saw his
comments on the shooting and if you look
at his comments on the shooting um I
always look at that like what are the
attorneys saying because they're saying
things for a reason if you look at the
comments from Mr Ali is that he wasn't
saying hey this officer in valve
shooting is legal because and then just
giving that one sentence about why
something is legal he was saying well
officers don't have the training and the
policy and this this this and he was
kind of seemed like he was kind of
throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the
wall so my initial that I've got a lot
of questions about this watching the
body cam video listening to what Mr Ali
said um I've really got to dive deep
into that one that is exactly what I'm
going to do this weekend I'm going to
write an article on that case I'm really
going to think about it and um I'm going
to go ahead and have something for you
we're going to lead with that next week
because um it was an officer who was
charged with murder in the Twin Cities
area which has again been a hot bed for
all kinds of of police um uh not only
misconduct but also um officers being
charged with cases where maybe they
maybe they they they they shouldn't be
so um all right well thank you so much I
want everyone to have a good weekend be
safe and we will see you here uh next
week thank you so much
bye