You're not supposed to use your camera in here, sir. >> I'm sorry. >> You're not supposed to use your camera in here. >> If you want to have this conversation with the sergeant, we're going to step outside and have the conversation with the sergeant. >> Well, you got to let him make that determination. >> Just because of a camera in a public place, multiple officers found themselves pulled into a highly controversial confrontation where the line between law enforcement and abuse of power suddenly came into question. >> I'm just taking them. What's your name? >> My name is Igean. >> Igean? I'm going to need you to talk right here. >> No. >> What do you mean no? >> No. >> Why can't I talk right here? Why not? >> You just heard the woman. >> I didn't just hear anything. >> Yeah. Okay, well, they do not want you videoing in here. >> Just for confronting a citizen who understood the law, the officers' own actions ended up dragging them into the center of a tense legal battle. Just one camera raised inside a public government building, and the entire system instantly reacted as if there was something that needed to be hidden. No explanations, only threats of arrest echoing through the halls. >> Here you go. >> Uh no, not today. >> You're not supposed to use your camera in here, sir. >> I'm sorry. >> You're not supposed to use your camera in here. You have to >> Really? >> Yeah, you have to turn that off. >> Uh I'm pretty sure I can. I'm She's trying to She's confirming, I think, right now cuz I'm pretty sure I can. What's your name, ma'am? >> I'm Igean. >> Oh, okay. >> You need to turn off your phone, sir. >> I'm pretty sure I can record in public. >> Not in here. >> Pretty sure I can. >> Yeah, because then you can catch people's private information. >> Yeah, I'm not going to record anybody's private information. >> know that though, do you? >> I'm telling you now. >> Well, are you going to turn your phone over to us so we can review that you don't have any of anyone's private >> Uh absolutely not. What's What's your name, sir? >> Anthony. >> Brian? >> Are you the Are you the manager? >> I'm not the manager. >> Oh, okay. >> Thank you. >> How you doing today, sir? >> So, are you like performing an audit or is that it? >> I'm just coming in documenting today, you know. >> So, then do you know how this goes? As a security guard, I got to tell you that you can't film on our property. >> Uh well, I'm pretty sure that I can because it's you know, [music] it's it's public. Obviously, this is a public building. >> Okay. >> Um you know, I'm not the laws I think you know, obviously say that you know, as long as you're not recording test sites or stuff like that. So, I mean, they just told you obviously um fraudulent information, you know, for lack of a better term. >> So, the the state of Illinois, the Department of Police, the Secretary of State >> Uh-huh. >> they are the ones that allow the legal site to be >> The The Secretary of State? >> Secretary of State Police, yes. >> It seemed like things would end with just a few warnings, but no. Only minutes later, the atmosphere inside the DMV instantly turned extremely tense the moment the word police started being mentioned. >> You said what, sir? >> You're going to They're I called law enforcement. They're going to want us to come to the building. >> So, McHenry County Sheriff's coming? >> No, uh Woodstock is part of >> Woodstock? What So, they're Are they on the way? Or cuz I mean, I don't want to run. I would definitely want to >> You're not a threat or you're not You're not You're not a threat or nothing. I'm just letting you know that I have to do my job and report it up with the >> So, so let me just ask you real quick. What what uh security company do you work for? >> I work for the state of Illinois. >> Oh, okay. >> security guard for the state of Illinois, Department of Police, and the Secretary of State. >> Okay. So, what I'm trying to What's your name? >> My name's Anthony. >> Anthony, what I'm trying to convey to you though, sir, is what I'm saying is we have uh rights to do this. And I understand that they've given you a job to do, but uh maybe you should become a whistleblower and let them know that you don't want to infringe on a citizen's rights. That would be the right thing to >> As being a government building, there's I have certain jobs that I have to follow to >> You can't Uh you can't No, you can't because I'm going to I'm going to be honest with you. If you do it, and then you would penalize for it, then then you become a whistleblower, and that's against your rights. So, you know what I mean? Always, you should always want to do the right thing. If your job is informing you to do things that's wrong, you should always be against that. Just being Just giving you a pull-up for that, you know what I mean? Uh Carol was forthcoming. She was nice and she said that, you know, I let her know that I'mma get some of these and book on out of here. She had no problem with it. >> [music] >> You got to do it. So, if you didn't do it, then what would happen? Would they get rid of you? No, I'm just saying like for you to say I have to do it. Like, what if you don't do it? Like, as if you you got experience on Okay. >> The conversation with security had barely ended when police suddenly arrived. But instead of protecting citizens' rights, they seem determined to push this man into some kind of legal trap. >> I just don't feel like You know what? You you you you you you you're trying to you're trying to I got to say you're trying to de-escalate a little bit, but you're still trying to get me to leave. Let me ask you guys this, just to make sure. Can you guys call a sergeant here? Someone of a higher authority, just to make sure because y'all y'all stepping in Because y'all steady here trying to Well, then and then if he does and then something you guys try to force me to leave, then I'mma have to file some complaints because I'm here exercising my rights. It's going to get bigger than what you It's going to get bigger than that. I'mma I'mma keep it real. Well, you got to let him make that determination. You got to let the sergeant make that determination. Why not? Why Why not? Why I mean, why not? Why couldn't he come here and say that? How could you speak for him? You're just You're just here trying to First thing. You're just appeasing to their to their feelings. You're the You're not the feelings officers. You guys are law enforcement. >> Yep. >> So, if no laws are being broken, then you guys need to convey that to them, no matter if their feelings are hurt or not, and tell them I have a right to do it. >> It's not about feelings, though. >> That's exactly what it is. >> It's about protecting their information. >> Oh, and I Look, I'm right here. I I can't get nobody's information. >> Even then, I agree that you're not getting Even when you walk over this way, and you quickly do whatever you could, you can go back into your film, and you can zoom in amazingly on iPhone. >> Let me ask you this. >> Okay. >> Let me ask you this, honestly. If someone was using their credit Look, look, just let's just say uh theoretically speaking, right? If someone was using their credit card, and and then my camera captured that, would that be illegal? >> People do not expect to to be filmed while they're using their credit card information at the Secretary of State's office, where all the private information is being >> The atmosphere was now spiraling out of control, as one officer stepped forward with an aggressive attitude, and a serious accusation began taking shape right in the middle of the government building. >> So, you're physically, right? >> I mean, no one asked me >> We're asking you to leave, and you're refusing to leave, correct? >> Asking me to leave. Like I just told I'm going to I'm going to say this. I'm going to say it to Like I just said to them. After I get my shots, I'm going to leave. >> After your shots, what >> Yeah, after I get a couple more shots. >> Oh, got you. >> I I got that side already, and got this center, so I'm done here. But >> You're under the impression that you can videotape, correct? >> Just in It's a law that you can't Only way you can't record is people's I mean, the testing sites. >> Right, but there's no way to prove that on our end, because of the cell phones are so good, right? So, what the Secretary of State police made clear to me is that the Secretary of State's office is not considered a public forum, because there's so much sensitive information in the facility. So, they have a detective coming out here right now, so they can explain it better than we can. >> Okay. >> If you choose not to leave, they can arrest you for criminal trespassing to support to state-supported property. >> I'm just explaining what they explained to me. >> Okay. Well, your sergeant is on the way as well, right? >> Yeah, but they have their sergeant. They'll they'll they'll they'll take >> Well, what what I mean by the your sergeant cuz you guys are law enforcements a law enforcements as well. >> So, same thing at the post office. >> Well, what did what did the master do? >> If the postmaster says something, we have to do it even to us. >> Well, that the post office becomes federal protected service FPS. >> But this this is the Secretary of State Police so these guys these guys will have jurisdiction over us here. So, I'm explaining it to you before they come here because if they do come here and they do go ahead and tell them we we explained to them that you've been recording >> All right. Right. >> and they will go ahead and deem it that this is not a public or place you can do this. >> Okay. >> That's what that's what case law has I mean I'll show you the case law right now, too, if >> Okay. >> So, okay. I'm just explaining to >> So, so let me let me just get this right. You're saying it's case law >> Correct. >> specifically for the DMV. >> Correct. >> Secretary of State's office. >> Correct. Specifically for that. >> Okay, specifically. And if after they come here and ask me to leave and I and I cuz they're going to ask me to leave >> They're asking us to ask you to leave. But if you choose not to, they're coming out here. They're coming out here regardless. >> Okay, well, watch this. You guys are asking. It's not a lawful order to leave, or correct? Okay. So, since it's an ask, then I'm going to decline because I feel like I'm exercising my rights. However, if they come here and do the same precise thing and I say that same thing to them and they force me to leave then I mean, we know what's going to go on after that. We already know everybody's qualified immunity goes straight out the window cuz these is well-established laws. >> No longer able to maintain the upper hand, the officer began to hesitate after realizing this man understood the law far better than expected. And moments later, a phone was pulled out in a desperate attempt to counter him on the spot. >> And if you don't mind, can you not show that on this cuz this is my phone. So, I'm asking I'm showing you >> Come on, officer. >> can explain it to you. I'm I'm offering to show it, but I don't want my phone in your eye or >> While I'm reading it. >> Correct. >> Okay, you know what? I'm going to keep this rolling though, but I'll keep it Okay. There you go. Can you read it out loud? >> Yeah, sure. So However, the First Amendment is not absolute and SOS Secretary of State >> Mhm. >> has maintained that the Secretary of State facilities are not traditionally public for inappropriate regulations of speech and appropriate and within the lawful authority of Secretary of State. >> Mhm. >> Secretary of State's facility is no less than a private owner property and has power to preserve the property under its control for the use of which it is lawfully dedicated, okay? So, these are the case laws. This is the case law that is under. Can you scroll to the next one? Therefore, in order to prevent the SOS facilities from becoming a traditional public forum, which I explained to you it's not videotaping of any kind by persons inside the facility should not be allowed. >> Okay. >> Like I have explained to you, if we ask you to leave within the facility, then you can be arrested for criminal trespassing under that statute. >> Well, let Can Well, let me just got cuz you haven't showed me that part of it. >> Yeah, yeah, this is the criminal statute right here. Pursuant to 720 ILCS 5-21-5. >> Okay, let me read let me read the top of it. >> As the legal argument grew more intense, the arrival of a sergeant made everyone think the situation was finally about to calm down. But unexpectedly, he became the very person who pushed the confrontation to an even more explosive level. >> Not that much. Like I've been trying to tell these young fine officers, man, since we've been here. I'm doing nothing nefarious. We have no ill intent. Just trying to exercise my right. However, uh Officer Mesa >> Mick Mesa, yeah. >> Mesa. Officer Mesa showed me something on his phone that has case laws attached to it. Only thing I have >> specifically for Secretary of State's office. >> So, what it does say is that you can be detained. >> No, no. >> It does. >> No. >> What you showed me says that. >> Right, right. So, you can be detained for it, but then if you choose not to leave or comply, then we can arrest you for criminal trespass to state supported property. >> But here's the thing though, when we talk about in terms of law enforcement, right? In order to detain someone, you have to have reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime is a foot. >> All right. >> This is not a crime. >> You're not allowed to record on government inside government property. That's according to this relevant circuit court ruling that >> Which is the same the same one I just showed you. >> right here basically government property, so you can't record in here. You can stand right out here where you want, record all you want, but you can't do it inside the building. >> Sergeant, I'm I'll be honest with you. I do this all over the place, and I do it in in all government buildings. Some some officers come here and understand our know our rights, some don't. Maybe you guys are just misinformed. >> Well, they're asking you if you can go outside and do >> So, like I explained to you, this this section isn't considered public forum. Like they've they've made that clear in that case law. That that's why I'm telling you if you don't leave >> But the publicly accessible areas is not considered public forum. >> Public forum. >> Correct, which is what you're what you're referring to to when it comes to the First Amendment. >> Okay. Okay. So, if I'm So, if I'm if I'm being asked to leave, right? Cuz I'm being asked. >> Right. >> Okay. >> Just come on up here. >> I'm asking you to leave one because >> It seemed like that posted notice would finally settle everything. But the sergeant's awkward and uneasy behavior afterward only made people wonder, was something being hidden behind all of this? >> Was there stuff down there you wanted to go look at? >> Yeah. Look, you see what I'm saying? But I I need >> I'll go with you. >> You're going to You're going to escort me? Okay. That's cool. >> I'll walk with you. >> All right. Here's basically from the Illinois Secretary of State Police right here. Photography and video recording in SOS facilities is prohibited. So, here's this. Is this his copy? Do you need this, or do you need to keep this copy? >> They they don't want They don't want you to have a copy. >> Oh, they don't want me to have a copy. >> You just videoed it. >> I Yeah, but I'm just saying I >> due to personal identifying information and sensitive documents. >> Oh, come on. Come on, sergeant. That's sergeant. You see how that looks? Come on, man. I so I can't see it. >> it to you. >> I'm just saying I can't read it. >> Okay. Well, you you told me after I saw that that you would leave if I asked you to leave. So, therefore, I'm telling you you have to leave now or you're going to get arrested. >> And what would I What would I be charged with? >> You'll be charged with a violation of >> What would be the charge? >> It's criminal trespass. >> Criminal trespass. >> So, if I don't leave, you're telling me as a sergeant I'm going to be arrested for criminal trespass? >> Arrested >> If I continue to stand in here and exercise my rights. >> That's what I was trying to say. >> Okay, that's the only standing I need. So, uh and how do I get to you guys's uh um >> police station >> Yeah. >> It's on Lake Avenue. >> Lake >> 156 Lake Avenue >> Okay. All right. All right, appreciate it. >> All right. This is a documented stop. >> There were no handcuffs, no arrests, but the officer's own words and actions caught on camera may soon drag this entire incident into serious legal consequences. Next, the moment the camera was raised, the atmosphere inside instantly became tense. And then, the intense reaction from two female employees caused everything to spiral out of control. >> Um do you guys have any um passport applications? >> Yes. Is it first timer or are we new? >> Uh yeah, it'll be first timer for sure. >> How many? >> I'll take two just in case I mess up on the first one. >> And you need a schedule up your um appointments. >> Need to schedule an appointment. >> And everything's going to be black ink. >> Black Okay. >> And then we do pictures for $15 here. >> $15? Okay. Not that bad. Hello. >> Well, sir, why are you taking the videos? >> Huh? >> Why are you taking the videos? >> I'm just taking them. What's your name? >> I'm Maggie. >> Oh, that's okay. You're on video all day anyway, you know. >> It's not for the public. >> Of course. Yeah, see that camera behind you? >> Yeah, but it's for postal. That's for my post office. >> I You know I can >> It's for the customers, not for the you know like it's >> I'm a customer. I'm a customer. Yeah. >> building. >> I think I'm I think I can. I'm pretty sure. >> I don't think so. >> I'm pretty sure. >> You go into the store and video tape people? What are they? No, nobody will allow you. >> Well, that's a store. That's different. >> It's the same thing. We are a store. This is a retail store. >> I understand, but it's kind of That's private. Put it like that. That's private. >> But it's still you know like I'm not one I don't want to be on the videos. >> I don't I You know I don't understand that logic cuz you're on video right behind you. >> It's for different reason. >> But it's still on video. >> I understand, [laughter] but it's not in public hands. >> Oh, yeah. I can get Don't you know I can get that footage right now? I can request that footage and have it. >> Then request it. >> No, I'm just saying like so it'll be the same thing as this camera. >> You want it to video tape at your workplace? >> I mean I wouldn't have a I wouldn't have a problem with it. >> I do. >> I wouldn't. I I mean I work in I work if I work for the public and I'm a public servant, why would I have a problem with it? >> After just one phone call, multiple police officers rushed to the scene as if they were responding to a major crime. But then, a tense accusation from the man suddenly shifted all attention directly onto the police themselves. >> Good morning, officer. What's your name and badge number? >> Vernardy. >> Ver- Vernardy? >> No, Vernardy. >> Vernardy. And what's your Our 510 is your badge number? >> Uh yeah. >> I don't know. Yeah, I thought that's what you said. Oh, okay. Okay. I'm not sure, man. Obviously that I didn't call you. I mean Oh, okay. What was the What was the Re- uh reason for them calling? >> You're not You're not conducting business. I guess they just wanted you to leave. >> Oh, I am I'm actually conducting business. I have actually got some passport applications the young lady gave to me when I first arrived here. Um and plus I'm conducting a First Amendment uh protected activity of standing in a publicly accessible area. Well, that's what they're talking about. >> Oh, um do you want to Do you need to get your passport stuff? >> Yeah, yeah, she gave it to me. >> Oh, okay then. We're done. I guess. >> No, I'm not done. I'm I'm I'm still I'm still documenting the building. Uh there's a poster seven if you're if it's a poster seven posted right there on the wall out there outside right there and it's allows basically to tell you it allows us to do this. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> Um you're not you know, like filming our people or nothing like that. >> No, I mean I'm whatever my camera can capture though, you know, I have to stand right here and >> You're not you're not you're not allowed to like film like people's credit cards and all that stuff. >> Uh but I mean I'll be perfectly honest with you if my camera so happens to get their credit card information, nothing's illegal about that. Intentionally? No, but I'm I'm saying but of course if I'm shooting it that way then it's possibly possible to capture it, right? Yeah. >> Um It's their building. I know you got to keep >> I mean you guys let me ask you do Woodstock have like an agreement with the um with the uh like Federal Protective Services to come out and basically and try to enforce federal regulations on cuz this you guys are out of jurisdiction right now. Oh, well, no, but I'm I'm just saying they called you guys here and you guys don't have jurisdiction on federal property. That's just respectfully. >> It's their it's their building. They can say for instance they can kick me out if they want to. >> Yeah, I mean plus you guys bring a firearms in. That's a that's a violation right there of federal law. So I mean it's >> We were invited in. >> Yeah, but but you see with the sign the sign doesn't say if you're invited you're exempt. >> law where I'm allowed to have police officers performing our job. >> Right. Right, but you can't perform your job here. >> It seemed like everything was was to end there. But the arrival of two sergeants instantly changed the atmosphere. And from that moment on, their increasingly aggressive attitude began pushing the confrontation toward its breaking point. >> Thank you. >> Good to go, right? >> Come on out here and talk to us, please. >> I mean, we could talk right here. >> No. >> What do you mean, no? >> No. >> Why can't I talk right here? Why not? >> You just heard the woman. >> I didn't just hear anything. >> Yeah. Okay, well, they do not want you videoing in here >> Okay. Okay, well, there's nobody in here for me to get their information at this moment. No one. I'd rather sit here. >> Why are you being so difficult? >> How am I being difficult? I won't follow a Basically, what you trying How is it lawful order? Is it ill So, is it unlawful? Is it unlawful? What? She can get out? No problem. If she gets out the way you by your door. So, my thing is this, Sergeant Dolan. Exactly. I don't want to talk out there. I don't even I don't even got nothing to talk to you guys about. To be perfectly honest with you. >> They don't want you in there. It's their policy. Just come on out. >> Sir, let me let me just say this, man. If it [music] I'm not doing nothing illegal. There's a poster seven right behind you guys that's letting you guys know as well as them that I have a right to do it. If you guys want to waste royal on my rights today, fine. Y'all already under investigation for the first incident. What you say? It's right there. It's literally right here. Matter of fact, it's right here. Poster seven. Want to read it? >> Yeah, read it. >> No, you can read. You're not interested in reading it. You just want to come here and be a just be tyrannical, huh? That's what you want to do? That's what it looks like. I just showed it to you and you telling me to read it to you, man. That's I'm That's what I want you to read it. You're not interested. >> They don't want you in there. >> It doesn't matter. >> just follow the rules? >> What do you mean? I follow the law. >> The rules is that they don't want you in there because of personal information. >> Okay, so what about these rules? >> You can video tape in here all you want. I can video tape in here as well. >> No. >> Absolutely, I can, sir. I mean, I'm >> postmaster. >> The postal police. >> Yeah, there you go. That's That's That's Right, cuz you guys are out of your jurisdiction, anyway. That's who you need to call, FPS. What do you mean? >> After a series of pressure-filled exchanges, the two sergeants' behavior began raising serious questions about how they were carrying out their duties. And then, before anything was truly resolved, they walked away in a manner that made the entire situation feel even more suspicious. >> Okay. >> All right, thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks, guys. >> Have a nice day, sir. >> Good to go, right? >> Yeah. How you doing? >> It was pointless for them to even call you guys out here, man. >> There's lots of stuff pointless about this. >> Huh? >> Lots of stuff pointless about >> Yeah, but I'm just saying they should have known better, man. You guys didn't have the jurisdiction, man. Not on federal property. >> Actually, we still do. >> Absolutely. Then why y'all ain't making me leave, then? Cuz you can't. Actually, he's straight-up tiring, man. No, actually, we still do. Why you ain't telling me to leave? GTA family, y'all already know, once they pull off, we going to pull off. We going to go straight to their police department and see if we can talk back to Deputy Chief Pritchard. >> In the end, what people fear most is not power itself, but the way that power is used against citizens who understand their rights. Because the real danger is not only abuse of power, but also the silence [music] that allows those wrongs to happen every single day. Citizens can sue police under section 1983 when their rights are violated. Officers who violate those rights may face compensation [music] payouts, disciplinary action, or even termination. In a civilized society, power only has meaning when it is exercised with respect for the law and human dignity. Hey everyone, what do you think about this situation? If you enjoyed the video, don't forget to like, subscribe, and support us with a donation. Thank you so much. >> [music]