Lady said you're filming their credit cards. I don't care about IDing you, but I am trespassing. >> We haven't done any of that. >> I don't care. You need to leave. >> This is a Also, I wasn't trespassed at all. >> You were trespassed, yes. You cannot go back there. If you go back there, you'll get arrested, yes. >> Okay, so that's >> go back inside the property, yeah. >> It's not the citizen breaking the law, it's the police bending the law right in front of the camera. >> Okay? >> Under the threat of arrest. >> Yes, leave. >> For first amendment protected activity. >> Dude, you are violating code of federal regulations. >> When law enforcers place themselves above the law, society must ask, who is watching them? Just standing there, just holding a camera, and minutes later police arrive. A federal regulation is read aloud, and an order is issued. Leave, or face legal consequences. >> Good morning. >> Oh, hi. You're here. What Why is the police here? What's going on? Uh-oh. Why are you Why are the police here? That's weird. No, we're not. >> They are per code of federal regulations, it's a violation. Code of federal regulation 39 CFR 232.1. I am trespassing you guys from the post office. Subsection E states that disorderly conduct or conduct which creates noise or impedes ingress or egress from the post office, or otherwise obstructs the usual use of entrances, foyers, corridors, offices, elevators, stairways, and parking lots, or which otherwise tends to impede or disturb the public employees in the performance of their work, or otherwise impedes or disturbs the general public in transacting business or obtaining the services provided on property is prohibited. >> We haven't >> received three calls of you guys being here, disturbing people, taking photos of them while they're very uncomfortable. Some lady said you're filming their credit cards. I don't care about ID'ing you, but I am trespassing >> We haven't done any of that. >> I don't care. You need to leave. >> This is a First Amendment protected activity. >> Leave the post office. >> You got I'm trespassing again? >> Is that >> 100%. >> So, we're going to be arrested? >> 32 or 39 CFR, but I'm enforcing penal code that 602 penal code. I'm trespassing you. You guys are receiving a lawful order to >> So, will be I'll be arrested if I don't leave? >> Leave. >> But, I'm just asking I'll leave I'll >> weird. Yes, I'm asking you to leave. >> I'll be Okay. Can I have your name and badge number, sir? >> Yeah, oh yeah. I'm Joe Gonzales. >> Sir. >> Badge number 1305. >> So, you're trespassing me for First Amendment protected activity. >> Please don't make this complicated. Yes, you have to leave. >> I I know I know you guys want me to respond >> No, I don't, sir. I don't, sir. >> It's very clear. >> I haven't made contact with anybody. I have no secrets, man. >> I No, no. >> Here's my card. Badge number 1305. You need to leave. Okay? >> Under the threat of arrest? >> Yes, leave. >> For First Amendment protected activity. >> Dude, you are violating code of federal regulations. They want you to leave. >> The order to leave is issued. Yet, notably, there is no clear description of any disorderly conduct, only indirect complaints. Does the law really allow police to remove a citizen from a public place simply because others feel uncomfortable? >> What if I don't leave? >> Maybe I'll give you a citation eventually. >> Sir, all I was doing is standing here video recording. People talked to me. >> We're not going to get done with you. This is the third call received. You need to leave. >> But, I have no control over people calling, sir. >> We can do this all day. You need to leave. It's going to go back and forth. Nothing I say will satisfy what you want. I I understand. I've done this a million times. Nothing against you. I have nothing against your rights, but you need to leave. >> But, people are harassing me, sir. I appreciate it, sir. >> I'm really ashamed of who you actually are. >> No, I'm not ashamed. >> Okay, then why are you completely covering your face and your >> I wear this for religious purposes. This beard, it brings me closer to God. >> around on your beard so everyone on the camera can see your cool beard. >> They do see it, sir. I wear this for religious purposes. >> If you're not ashamed of it, why don't you uh show your beard? >> Sir, I'm engaging in First Amendment protected activity, sir. I'm not here to cause trouble. I haven't disturbed any business. >> about the beard a little bit. >> Sure, we can. >> Okay, can you show the people on the camera your religious beard? >> What? Why? So you can touch me or do something to me if I turn the camera on? >> too. >> Sir, I know. >> I know, but I want to talk a little bit about your religious beard. >> Okay, look. I can't grow a beard as as good-looking as yours, so I have to wear this. >> Go for it. >> I can't grow a beard as good-looking as yours, so I have to put a beard wig on. It brings me closer to God. I'm a I'm a Christian. So I'm here practicing my faith and my First Amendment attack >> beard right now. >> Okay. >> Completely off topic aside from everything else going on and your cool glasses. >> I appreciate it, sir. But >> but why are you ashamed to show everyone on camera your religious beard? >> Because I'm surrounded by a person with a gun. And I have to protect myself. >> All right. If I go put my gun away and lock it up, will you talk to me about it? >> Did I do something? >> your camera around and show your beard. I'll go lock my my gun up right now. If you'll turn your camera around and show >> Well, actually people have been harassing me, sir. >> What's that? >> People have been harassing me. >> I'm sure cuz they don't like dealing with credit card information and their personal mail information. >> But this is First Amendment protected activity. They don't have to like it, sir. >> to you code federal regulation 39. I'm not going to enforce it, but I'm enforcing penal code 602 PC. And you you are being trespassed. So you need to leave. >> Police repeatedly ordered the individual to leave, yet failed to identify any specific unlawful conduct. Under US constitutional law, particularly the First Amendment, a citizen has no obligation to leave a public place unless there is clearly defined, specific, and verifiable disorderly behavior. >> They will satisfy what you want. I already know. >> I understand that, sir. But my civil liberties aren't aren't >> cool sunglasses that offended people. >> My civil liberties aren't contingent on somebody's comfort. I'm not here to bother anybody. I've been over here the whole time. I walked that way and came back. I didn't make contact with anybody, sir. No, I wasn't. I I didn't get in her face, sir. I didn't get in I know better than that. You know I know better than to get in anybody's face. That would get me in trouble. I know better not to get in anyone's face. I'm not taking off my religious garb for uncomfort. Thank you. I've done nothing wrong, ma'am. I've just been standing here. Yeah. I What's that? I haven't done If people are uncomfortable You can read it to me, but I haven't disturbed anybody. Me existing and standing Sir. Or else you're going to arrest me and take me to jail. But my civil liberties go above your need. Okay, tell me what I did to disturb everyone, sir. A report? So I can call the police and report someone and they have to leave? Sir. This is a public This is a public place. I'm not here to do any of this, sir. I'm just here to stand here and document. If people talk to me and don't like it, I've no control over that. I'm not here for that. Actually, you know what? When you leave, I'll probably be gone in 10 minutes. I'm not going to be here all day. But the best thing you can do explain to them but they already know I haven't talked to anybody. I haven't disturbed anybody. If people are coming up to me, I have no control I have no control over that, sir. >> When there's no arrest and no clear citation of a specific violation, yet the pressure to leave voluntarily keeps escalating, this becomes a legal gray area. One that many civil lawsuits have started from. And when the officer begins forcing a yes/no answer and pushes him to make an on-the-spot decision, that's when the situation reaches its most intense point. >> You want me to arrest you. You want me >> I I don't want to arrest you. I want to be I want to be home tonight. >> Okay. >> But I'm not I'm not going to give up my civil liberties because they're uncomfortable. >> Okay. But but you are refusing to leave. >> But I have no reason to leave. >> I'm giving you a lawful order as a police officer, a sworn police officer in the state of California, to leave the post office. >> Or else you're going to take me to jail. >> There's no or else. I'm giving you a lawful order. Why can't you just understand that I'm giving you a lawful order to leave? >> But you can't do that. I'm in public and I haven't committed You haven't committed a I haven't >> That's what happens all the time. >> Right. They probably did something wrong, though. >> Huh? >> Trespass >> I read you a whole section of code of federal regulations. >> I haven't violated any regulations, sir. Me standing here with the video camera doesn't violate regulations. >> Okay. But you caused a disturbance. >> No, I haven't, sir. >> We're going to go in a circle again. We're going to go in a circle again. >> haven't caused a disturbance. I haven't caused a disturbance. >> Well, based on >> There's video cameras all over here. >> Based on everything that everyone has said to me, that's enough for me to substantiate you to cause a disturbance and you guys need to leave. >> Based on what, sir? >> Based on >> What What did I do? >> Three employees I talked to you, based on the three calls and the whole reason I'm here. >> Okay. But what did I do to cause a disturbance? >> I already explained it to you. >> Standing here with the video camera, sir? >> That No. I never said You I never said I never said you standing here with a video camera is disturbing anyone. >> Do you have reasonable articulable And I >> didn't respond here. I had no issue with that. You You can just stand here with the camera. >> That's what I've been doing. Yes, it is, sir. I have the whole thing on video. >> Okay. All right. >> And my friend has a body cam. >> me ask you this. Are you refusing to leave right now? Yes or no? It's a very simple question. >> Okay. But if I don't leave, am I going to be arrested? >> asking you a question. Are you refusing to leave? Yes or no? >> Am I going to be arrested if I don't leave? >> My god, dude. Are you refusing to leave? Yes or no? >> Well, I need to know the consequences if I stay. >> This seems like you're refusing to leave to me. >> I have no reason to leave, sir. >> I'm not trying to challenge your rights. I'm not trying to make your life more difficult. I don't want you to >> You kind of are, sir. >> in night and day because I told >> The police keep pressuring him to leave, but the man refuses to back down. But wait, the real twist is right here. The officer suddenly drops a serious accusation that flips the whole situation in just seconds, and from this moment on, one wrong sentence could lead straight to handcuffs on the spot. >> I had plenty of calls before this about you being here. I said, "Cool. Guys are in the lobby filming. There's nothing wrong with that." >> Yeah. >> I started getting calls about people getting cut off in line, people trying to use their credit card. >> I haven't >> worried about you being filmed, you raising your voice. I've heard two calls of you guys raising your voice and yelling at people. >> I haven't yelled. >> That's a disturbance. That's violating uh code of federal regulations for post offices, and I clearly read everything to you. >> I haven't raised my voice. >> to enforce that, but that is a violation. What I am enforcing is that you need to leave, and I don't understand why you can't just leave. >> Because I came to this country and I became a US citizen for freedom, sir. >> Good for you, and I'm very proud of that. Proud of this country. >> But I can't I would love to give You seem like a nice guy. You're not an a-hole cop or whatever. But I I can't uh I I I would It's like a I I might as well go back to my country. But because somebody's don't >> Is that what you want to do? >> No, I like the freedoms here. >> Okay. >> I like the freedoms here. I The only My voice was >> go back there then? >> Why don't I go back there? >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean, you're here. >> Why don't you stay away from the credit card machine? I bet I won't get any more calls if you just stay away from the credit card machine. >> I was never near that machine. >> You're near it right now. >> Sir, the lady had had people covering her because she was paranoid. >> long did you say you were going to be here? 10 more minutes if I left? It's almost 10 more minutes. >> Like when you're gone, I have I have nothing Like I wasn't I would have probably been gone by now. >> Uh-huh. Okay. >> Like I don't stay here all day. >> be here? >> 5 10 minutes after you leave. But I The thing is I can't leave because I'm forced to. >> Okay. >> It's like saying I don't I don't her hair color, it's making me uncomfortable. Does she have to leave? I respect what you're doing. I totally >> I'm not going to arrest you cuz I don't want to cause a scene. I don't want you to feel your rights are violated. I don't want to mess with your really cool beard and your really cool glasses. >> The incident highlights an abuse of authority, a risk of civil rights violations, and potential consequences including internal complaints or civil litigation under section 1983. Citizens can sue police officers under section 1983 when their rights are violated. Officers who break the law may be required to pay damages and face disciplinary action or termination. Up next, a journalist walks into a police station, a question about civil rights, a warning from the police chief, and a confrontation that puts the First Amendment to the test right in front of the camera. >> Hello, ma'am. How you doing today? >> I'm well. How about you? >> Pretty good. I need to speak I couple weeks ago I was here uh talked to a deputy chief. I can't remember his name, little short. He's on vacation. Okay. Well, even possibly if I can speak with the chief himself, I had got some calls. Couple of family members of mine said they called and talked with me. He was very rude and unruly with them. I just want to be able to come in and see what was you know, what was the matter and plus check up on the complaint that I filed with you guys just a few weeks ago, the status. >> I'll see if he's in. What's your name? >> James. >> He's not available right now. You could email him or call and and set up an appointment with him. >> Okay, so >> happy to see you. >> Okay, well, you know, he's not available. Can I speak to someone of a that has some type of authority in terms of law enforcement? Cuz what I'm really trying to do is be able to put this department on notice. I'm getting ready to head over to a spot where I was illegally trespassed >> [music] >> and I don't want I you know, you guys might get another call and I'm just trying to let you know that I'm going to be over there. So, yeah, that's that's the >> I'll see you at the shift commander. >> Okay, appreciate it. Yeah, kind of figured the chief how rude you guys said he was. So, should have known he wasn't >> The journalist returned to the police station to request clarification on a previous trespass decision, but was evaded. This avoidance of dialogue raises questions about the accountability of public authorities when constitutional rights are allegedly violated. >> I Shift Commander? >> No. Oh, see. >> Okay. >> James. >> James. >> Okay. Yeah, I'm just I just wanted to come in and just basically have a quick dialogue with you, sir. I had got a couple of calls from a few of my family members. They said they did speak with you about an incident that occurred a couple weeks ago. I was out here in you guys' town and I was illegally trespassed from the officer watch. >> You were not illegally trespassed. You You were not trespassed. You were warned that you can't be on there. You were warned. >> Oh, so I wasn't trespassed at all. >> You were trespassed, yes. You cannot go back go back there. You'll get arrested, yes. >> Okay, so that's >> Go back inside the property, yes. >> Inside the property. Okay, so are you aware of the Illinois compiled statutes, man, which is 720 ILCS 521, where you can't trespass [music] anyone from a public building during normal normal business hours. That's the law. >> I I understand that. >> Okay. >> That's not a public building. We have documentation confirmation from the federal government that that is not a federal building. >> Okay. >> They are a leased building. They are private contractors. They pay a lease there. They pay rent. >> Okay. >> It is not [music] a federal building. You can feel what you want to feel. >> No, I'm telling you the law. >> No, you're not. >> That's not the >> You're not telling me the accurate one, okay? It is a private building. They are not federal workers. It is not a federal building. It is not like this. >> Okay. >> Okay? Okay. Here, this is public. >> That's correct. >> Okay? It is not like that. >> Okay, so so so in our reality, that place where I was at where I was trespassed, you're telling me that they don't offer anything in terms of of services [music] to the public. Is that what you're saying? >> That is correct. You have to have an appointment to go there. You have to be directed to go there. And that is what That's what they're there for. They They are not federal workers. It is not a federal building. >> The police chief invokes trespass and conditions of future arrest on it. An argument that raises serious legal controversy over whether government authorities can use trespass laws to obstruct activity protected by the First Amendment. >> Are you a journalist? >> I mean, from I mean, obviously you make the statement. >> Are you a journalist? >> Of course I am. I'm investigative journalist. And and now we're going to put Northridge under a lot of scrutiny. >> Who Who issues them? >> I mean, who who issues them? >> Well, how do I know you're a journalist? >> Well, who issues credentials? >> You said you're a journalist. >> Yes, that's correct. Where's freedom of press, sir? Are you the chief? I know you've been on the force. Cuz I'm >> What does that matter? >> I mean, because you should know about the Constitution, sir. You swore an oath to uphold it. >> I asked I asked who you work for. >> Well, I I don't need to work for anyone if it's freedom of press, sir. >> So, I can say that I'm a journalist? >> That's absolutely correct. Yeah. I mean, of course not in your official capacity you can't. In your In your individual capacity you can. So, yes, freedom of press. First Amendment. Something you guys should uphold. But Officer Watts and two other officers that day infringed on my rights under Yes, they definitely did. >> Your opinion. >> They definitely did. I'm I'm definitely going to go through with it all. I'm going to go all the way to Chief. I'm not going to never go away because my rights were infringed on. >> Listen, I don't want you to go away. That's not That's not what I'm asking here, okay? I'm not asking for you to go away. >> Okay. >> I'm asking you to have a little understanding and understand that what you're saying is you are misunderstanding what that building is, okay? >> We just got different opinions. >> Agreed. And and again, the only way that's going to get solved, right, is either one of a couple of different ways, right? >> That's correct. >> One, I agree with you. >> Right. Right. >> okay? Two, you agree with me. You're not going to, right? >> That's correct. >> Okay. Three, if you go there and they ask you to leave and you refuse to leave, okay, you may be arrested for trespassing. >> Even if I'm in there conducting business. >> The exchange shifts into a critical legal direction when the police chief questions the journalist's status and credentials. Under constitutional principles, however, freedom of the press is not determined by a badge, a card, or approval from law enforcement. >> Come on, man. Come on, chief. Come on, man. >> You go there, you do what you got to do. If that's what you feel like you need to do and want to do, okay? And then we'll do what we feel like we have to do and need to do, okay? But I'm asking you, you know, man to man, you know, you know, okay? What what's the point? What are we What are we doing? >> You know what? You know what the point is? To be perfect To be perfectly honest with you, I'll be perfectly honest with you. There's a disconnect already between citizens and officers. And this is And this is the reason why. >> disagree with you there. >> Really? >> You go knock on any door here. Talk to any citizen. >> Mhm. >> And you will find out that we have one of the best relationships with our citizens in the in this town here. >> In Norwich? >> In Norwich. Absolutely, 100%. >> I I I find that very hard to believe. >> Knock on any door. Find out. >> I guarantee because if >> You do some journalistic investigative skills. Talk to the citizens. >> I would love to. >> Don't go to some building. Don't go to the mall. Talk to the people in the mall. Why Walk around the streets. Talk to the people on the streets. Don't go bother some people that are just trying to work and do their job. >> Well, that's that's just it. We We have a right See, you have you have you ever heard of ACLU versus Alvarez in the state in the state of Illinois? >> Whatever. >> I'm I'm I'm saying You see You see >> heard of it. I haven't heard of it. I probably know I probably know this the the the basics of the case, but I I don't >> Okay, so let me just tell you the basics of it again. The basis of the case is the state Supreme Court of Illinois says, "We, as citizens, have a right to film public officials in the course of their duties." We That's what >> They're not public officials. They're contractors. They are contractors. They are not public officials. >> Once you contract with the government, it makes it public property. >> We're done. We're going round and round here. >> I'm I'm going to grab a four year and I'm I'm going to four I'm going to four your entire your and [music] your discipline I cuz I can guarantee you's a lot of plates on you. >> I guarantee you there's not. I I I guarantee you there If it ain't you you're probably going to get rid of it. So I can't see it. Cuz we definitely going to put We got to expose you, chief. >> The police chief continues to emphasize the possibility of arrest despite the absence of any legal ruling or clearly [music] established violation. Repeated coercive threats in the context of ongoing First Amendment activity may constitute [music] an unlawful chilling effect discouraging and suppressing protected freedoms. A democracy is not weakened [music] by citizens who dare to ask questions. It is weakened when those in power treat silence as order and fear as a solution. Hey everyone, what do you think about this situation? If you enjoyed the video, don't forget to like, subscribe, [music] and support us with a donation. Thank you so much. >> [music]