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good afternoon this is Daniel here with
Copwatch TV and we're going to go ahead
and break down some of the most
important and interesting cases in
policing from the last week I want to
thank everyone for being here in our
live show and while I'm going through
some of these cases if you have
different uh opinions or thoughts on
some of these cases definitely go ahead
and put those in the chat one of our
favorite things to do is as we're kind
of breaking down these cases is going
through is not only answering questions
from our viewers but also going back and
forth and discussing and debating these
cases with our viewers it's always
interesting to see what people think
about these controversial cases and
today we have three of them and we're
going to go through all of them want to
welcome again everyone in looks like we
have uh Sarah from uh Charleston in
South Carolina Sharon is from North
Carolina want to welcome everyone in if
you haven't already please go ahead and
subscribe to the channel and make sure
that you share it with friends and
family you know we usually do the show
on Fridays around 12 just after 12:00
Mountain Time on Fridays uh also you can
go ahead and follow me over at police
law news just about everywhere where I
cover these cases pretty much on a daily
basis all right so this first case that
we're going to talk about you know
really over the last couple days this is
the case that's pretty much been in the
news or if you follow you know uh issues
in policing on on really any social
media uh site this is the case that most
people have been talking about and you
know honestly this is the case that
people should be talking about because
this is going to be an officer involved
shooting where the police officer made a
general mistake in the moment and a
15-year-old ended up dead so this case
happened in San Bernardino California
but it happened a while ago it happened
on September 27th in 2022 so the reason
that we're talking about this case now
is because there's some video footage
that's been leaked to a local re
reporter in California that hadn't been
released so far so essentially this
entire time you know just about a year
and a half since this case happened that
we haven't we haven't been able to see
we haven't been able to see um really
any of the video footage from this and
you know I should just say before we
before we get into it that you know when
it comes to body camera footage and you
know any footage that you know is from
the the police that you know it's
different state by state California has
one of the worst state laws for body
camera footage that's why cases like the
Paul Pelosi case and this case things
like that that's why these cases it
takes a long time to get body camera
footage there are some states that are
great when it comes to body camera
footage um but however California is not
one of them it's taken a year and a half
to get any footage on this so let's get
into it so here's what happened in this
case essentially there was a man his
name is Anthony grai
and he had a 15-year-old daughter named
Savannah now Anthony and the mother of
Savannah were not uh they were not
together they had been living separately
and most of the time Savannah had been
living with her father well there was
some type of domestic dispute that
happened and during that domestic
dispute the Father Anthony ended up
killing uh Savannah's mother after the
killing Anthony took Savannah hostage
now we say that she was it's kind of
what some of the initial reporting of
this was is after the body of of the
mother was found is that there was
because she was only 15 there was an
amber alert that was issued for uh s
Savannah so there was an amber alert
that was issued for her but again you
know before this this homicide occurred
she really had been living with her
father but obviously because because
there was a violent crime that took
place there was an amber alert that was
issued so pretty much that same day what
happened was his deputies and San
Bernardino California they were able to
locate the car that both Anthony and
Savannah were driving in now these were
they were the only two people in the car
you know police officers tried to
initiate a traffic stop not only to get
Anthony into custody for the
investigation from the homicide but also
to make sure but also to make sure that
um Savannah is all right while they the
officers tried to conduct the traffic
stop the vehicle did not stop
essentially this turned into a police
chase now police officers especially in
States like California they're not going
to chase for a whole lot of things if
it's if it's a property crime if isn't
isn't any victim or a smaller type of
crime you know police officers most of
the time aren't going to aren't going
able aren't going to be able to chase
however a case like this where the
suspect where it's a violent crime like
a homicide and there's an amber alert
for a 15-year-old those are the types of
incidents that police officers pretty
much in any jurisdiction that you can
think of are going to engage in a
vehicle Pursuit so that's exactly what
they did during the vehicle Pursuit
police officers started to take fire
from that vehicle now these are accounts
not just from police officers but also
from independent Witnesses and here's
what they said what the people said is
that you know while the police officers
were engaged in this foot pursuit that
you know shots are being fired from the
front passenger side of the vehicle at
police officers multiple different
police cars were hit during this one
police vehicle was actually uh dis
disabled by by the gunfire so you know
the person who was shooting in the
passenger seat at police officers was
shooting a lot of bullets at police
officers during this Chase now again
there were only two people in the
vehicle Anthony was driving the car the
father and Savannah was in the passenger
seat so this 15-year-old you know had
this Amber Alert issued she is wearing
tactical gear she has tactical pants and
she has on a helmet and she is shooting
at police officers from the passenger
side of the vehicle now as a police
officer you have to be thinking okay
well what's really go what's going on
here is she also an offender is she
doing this because he's forcing her to
do it you know there's a lot of things
but again she's also a 15-year-old who
was in the car with someone who just
killed her mother so there's a lot that
has to go on when it comes to that a lot
police officers are probably thinking
about but once she starts shooting at
police officers police officers have to
recognize her as a threat even though
she's a 15-year-old girl so they have to
see her as a threat because she's
shooting at them So eventually this
happen that what ends up happening in
this case is pretty much what happens in
most vehicle Pursuits where the police
officers are say you know we're not
going to stop chasing you sorry and uh
the vehicle ended up crashing and the
vehicle was disabled once the vehicle
was disabled Anthony from the driver's
seat ended up getting in a gunfight with
police officers and during this gunfight
Savannah who was still in the front
passenger seat of the vehicle she was
not firing at police officers and again
she was in the front passenger seat of
the vehicle there was a police car and a
deputy who was near there was a deputy
um there was a deputy who essentially
his car was positioned just in front of
of the their car and he was positioned
closer to the passenger side so he was
physically the closest one to uh uh
Savannah's position and what he did is
you know basically Savannah is in this
car and she's pretty much you know in in
a terrible position because she at this
point she is not shooting at police
officers but her father sitting right
next to her is involved in a gunfight
with cops so what what a deputy does and
it's not an unreasonable decision that
this Deputy made please put in the
comments if you disagree what the deputy
did is the Deputy started to yell at
Savannah to get out of the car he yells
at her to get out of the car and
essentially to get down on the ground
and to lay down on the ground next to
the car so she does that she follows the
instructions and she does that now again
during this dep deputies are still
involved in a gunfight with with uh
Anthony who's in the driver's seat of
the vehicle so even though she's laying
next to the passenger side of the car
that still isn't a very safe place so
what the what the same Deputy does is he
actually gives her different
instructions so he basically tells her
to run towards him to come towards him
to try to get to safety now the reason
that the deputy did this isn't because
he had any ill feelings towards towards
this 15-year-old he didn't want her to
get hurt he wasn't trying to trick her I
mean legit because to me intent matters
what the intent of the Deputy was was
say okay Savannah is in a terrible spot
how can we get her to a better spot and
the deputy gave her instructions to
basically run to him now here's the
problem with this and and the problem
with this is that this is a chaotic
scene and there's police officers
basically fanned out all across in front
of that vehicle just like I said this
Deputy was positioned in front of the
vehicle but closer to the passenger side
there were police officers who were
pretty much on the other side if if if
you can imagine there were police
officers pretty much on the other side
you know engaging with the driver so on
the driver side of the vehicle so when
the deputy gave those you know otherwise
not necessarily a bad idea like
reasonable instructions for Savannah to
come to safety and try to run towards
towards the cops so that she would be
safe unfortunately what ended up
happening was is that another deputy who
was on the other side closer to to the
driver's side was not within earshot of
those orders that the one Deputy gave to
to gave to this 15-year-old so
essentially the other Deputy didn't know
that this was happening so from the
other depuy's point of view here's what
he sees he has a 15-year-old who had
just been shooting at police officers
and now he sees her get up and run
towards the cops in the moment that
Deputy thought that she was still a
threat he didn't know if she was still
armed he thought that she was a threat
so what that Deputy did he ended up
shooting he ended up shooting and
killing her and she and she basically
died right there also during this
officer involved shooting obviously
Anthony um he died as well so it's a
pretty it's a pretty you know terrible
case it's a it's a it's a tragedy so
because as as the deputy was shooting at
uh uh sa Savannah as the deputy was
shooting at her the deputy who gave her
those initial commands or instructions
to come towards him he starts yelling
like you know stop shooting at her stop
shooting at her but that wasn't uh that
was relay a little bit too late um Ryan
says I'm lying to these people hey Ryan
so um all the reports from this case are
not just from the media from police but
also from also from independent
Witnesses are that Savannah was shooting
at deputies from the passenger seat of
the car at during the car chase however
once the car chase stopped and the
vehicle was still all the reports are
that there was no more shooting from
Savannah so that's what all of the
reporting has been on this so that's
what I'm reporting um if that reporting
is incorrect um if that's not and I also
watched um uh some surveillance video
that's what the surveillance video shows
as well um you know the the video that
we have on this case so that that's what
it says if later on if something ends up
um something else ends up being true or
there's more information I'll definitely
correct but as of right now that's what
the best information on this is and I'm
again I'm not making this up that's
that's just what the information on this
is so you know you know basically this
is this is this is just a this is a
mistake by the officer this is a
miscommunication from the police
officers because obviously the deputy
who fired the shots he didn't wake up
that day and say you know you know what
I'm going to do I'm going to go ahead
and shoot a 15-year-old girl who isn't
armed who isn't a threat so this
obviously not what happened so in the
moment the deputy thought that that
person um the deputy thought that she
was a threat and so we have to look at
it this way was it reasonable for the
deputy to think that she was a threat
I'm really curious to see what your
thoughts are on this and I'm going to
say yes it probably was reasonable for
the deputy to believe that she was a
threat in the moment because she had
been previously firing at at uh at uh
police officers now so you know what we
what what we have to do and yes no she
wasn't shooting at police officers at
the time so you know you know when we
look at cases like this we have to see
okay what could the police officers have
done differently because again even
though you know it was probably
reasonable for the officer to think that
she was some kind of a threat she had
been shooting at police and now she's
running towards cops he wasn't in
earshot so he didn't he wasn't able to
he wasn't able to hear what the other
deputy said so you how can we fix this
in the future and really the only thing
that we can do in in a situation like
this is really to have good firstline
supervisors or incident commanders on
scene so whenever you have something
like this when you have people who are
when you have people who
are um you have people who are um uh in
in a situation like this you know really
let's see what cjun Randy says you
report that the deputies thought but you
can't know what the deputies thought or
even thinking at all well we do we do
know we do know a little bit Randy um so
the the reporting that that we we have
on this is that um well okay let's start
here Randy so we know that she was
shooting at deputies so if she was
previously shooting at deputies during
this incident is it reasonable let's
talk about what's reasonable Randy is it
reasonable for a police officer to think
someone could be a threat if they had
just been shooting at cops like I don't
think it's a giant leap to say yeah this
person was just shooting at us a couple
minutes ago
now she's not fantastic but like she
just had been is it reasonable is it in
the realm of being reasonable to think
that this person could be a threat I
mean I'm going to say yes if you
disagree that's okay um and again I wish
this didn't happen so you know really
having an incident commander on scene
and when you have a situation like this
that's why training for police officers
is so important because when you have a
situation like this and the bullets
start flying and you have multiple
people inside of a car there has to be a
plan that everybody know knows about
everybody on scene knows about okay
here's what we're going to do we have
someone who's in the passenger seat if
they're not a threat we're going to put
them here we have someone we're going to
put them here you know so it's not just
enough for one person it's not just a p
enough for one Deputy in the moment to
give instructions that again you know
maybe it could be reasonable in the
moment to give those instructions but to
not let the other police officers know
over the radio hey I'm going to get the
female out I'm going to get the female
out we're going to try to get her here
going to try to get her behind the car
we're going to give her instructions to
do that so I think that's really where
the failure was and again if if if if
that's my opinion like that's where the
failure was that the the failure was in
the communication from the deputy who
told Savannah to go somewhere else but
didn't tell the other deputies on scene
that that was going to be the the the
new plan um and then I I I honestly
think that's what the problem was with
this case I I I don't think it was it
was it was unreasonable I don't think it
was unreasonable um in the moment for
the deputy to think that she could be a
threat so that's why I say that training
is so important and here's my problem
with with incidents like this and for
people who criticize police we should
criticize police officers in an effort
to get better but the criticism
shouldn't be dishonest and here's what I
mean by this because often the same
people who are criticizing the actions
of the police officers are the exact
same people who want to defund police
officers they want to defund police they
also the same types of people who in
Atlanta are trying to get rid of cop
city which is basically a giant training
ground for police officers so yes you
know police officers typically typically
uh typically police officers maybe you
can go an entire career and never have a
situation like this so yes military
equipment and Ballistic Shields and you
know Bearcats and stuff like that maybe
you could say well police officer police
officers really don't need like those
kinds of equipment that is militarizing
the local police Department again I just
retired from a pretty big city um you
know I worked I worked for 20 years and
in 20 years I never was in a situation
like this thankfully but but again now
we see that police officers are so you
know you can't on one hand say we don't
want to give funding for police officers
for equipment and training and then when
a situation like this expect the police
officers to act completely perfectly um
so so this is a case where I do not
expect the police officer in this case
to be charged I don't think that the
police officer should be charged um I
think that um that uh the really this is
a training issue that's that's what I
think this is probably some kind of a
civil suit I do not expect a police
officer um to be charged in this case
because basically again what we're
looking at you know essentially now
every state law is going to be a little
bit different when it comes to when you
can charge police officers but typically
in general what we're looking at is okay
in the moment did the police officer
perceive a deadly threat you meaning a
deadly threat is anything that could
cause great bodily injury or death and
you go okay okay so if a police officer
perceived that you know was that
perception reasonable and that's
basically what we're looking at like I
said in every state the language is
going to be a little bit different when
it comes to when you can charge a police
officer but you know for you know
because we're not going to research
those laws for every single case in in
all 50 states you know we just talk
about it generally like were the actions
of the police officer reasonable so more
on point with this case the officer who
saw Savannah who she's she's in camel
pants she has a helmet on she had
recently been shooting at police
officers the officer didn't hear that
she was told to run towards the cops he
sees her go from laying down to running
towards cops in the moment would a re is
that a reasonable thing for him to think
that she poses a deadly threat and and
I'm saying probably and again I don't
love this officer involved shooting
because obviously with 2020 hindsight
which is you know how we can talk about
this case but I think we should also
realize that just because we have the
luxury and the privilege of talking
about this case in 2020 hindsight the
deputies in the moment who were having
bullets flying at them they didn't have
that luxury and I think that's an
important distinction to make uh all
right let me answer a couple questions
or read a couple comments on this case
so Ryan says what uh with what uh was
she a threat with yeah so um she had a
she was shooting at police officers
during the car chase um she was a threat
then again um because a handgun can be
concealed it's something that easily
could have been in her pocket again with
2020 hindsight we know now that she
wasn't shooting at police officers well
again we have the luxury of knowing that
now uh uh Ben Ben says was she armed
when she left the vehicle uh I don't
think so I'm not 100% sure if she had a
gun on her or not been but what I can
say is she did not have a gun in her
hand and once the vehicle crashed uh and
her dad was involved in a gunfight with
cops she did not participate in that
gunfight and the officer who was giving
her her Direction and commands and
really trying to save her life and get
her to a safer spot that Deputy who was
the closest to her recognized that uh
let's see um uh K kjun says my point is
no one knows what anybody else thinks
only what they say they thought yeah
that's correct I don't know exactly what
the police officers thought Randy 100%
And unless an officer gives a statement
that's public I'm not going to know all
I can say is these are the facts on the
ground and you know because I was a cop
for 20 years um you know I'm kind of
putting in my experience in there um
that you know that if someone was just
shooting at police officers that it
would be reasonable for a police officer
to think that that same exact person
during that same exact incident could be
a danger could be a threat to police
officers I don't think that is a I don't
think that is a uh huge sleep I want to
thank you all for for the the comments
and the and the questions on that case
um uh again that's this isn't a case
that I love this isn't a case where um
you know if anything sometimes there
police cases and incidents and officer
involved shootings that happen where we
go Hey listen you see what the police
officers there that is exactly what we
want Cops to do in every single
situation like that this is the opposite
of that this is the opposite this is the
case where we see what happened we go
holy [ __ ] what can we do as a police
department or this happened in
California what can a police department
a thousand miles away say hey holy [ __ ]
if this happens do we have something in
place to make sure this doesn't happen
and that's really what police
departments and trainers and police
leaders all across the country should be
doing looking at incidents like this and
saying oh my God if we if our officers
get into a situation like this where
there's a gunfight but one of the people
in the car is not participating in that
gunfight we want to extract them and get
them to safety what's the plan to do
that what's the SOP what's the training
how do we accomplish that because the
goal from police officers is to save
lives and and I'm I'm just going to say
that you know in situations like this
that the police are the good guys the
criminals are the bad guys because
intent man matters it just does there is
a moral difference between police
officers who make a mistake while
they're trying to save lives and
criminals who are trying to hurt people
and then get away with their crimes
there's a moral difference between those
two things and we shouldn't forget it
all right so the next case that that
we're going to talk about is also
someone who died um during during a use
of force with police officers but it
wasn't a shooting so this is a case
where a police officer utilized a less
Lethal Weapon system and the person
ended up dying so cases like this are
pretty rare and that's why we're going
to go ahead and talk about it so this
happened in Fullerton California so I
know I'm covering a bunch of California
cases today I am not local in California
it just happens that some of the most
interesting cases from the last week
happened in California so this happened
in flon California involving a man a
50-year-old named Alejandro Rios
essentially basically here's what
happened is is uh employees at of
McDonald's called for police officers in
Fullerton California and the report to
911 is that this man Alejandro Rios was
essentially causing a disturbance in the
McDonald's and he was scaring customers
and employees so they called police
officers the police officers uh in
Fullerton arrived to the scene and when
they got there they saw that Mr Rios was
standing outside of the McDonald's kind
of yelling and talking to himself and he
had taken his shirt off and I'm just
going to I'm just going to take a side
note right there there is no situation
ever that a police officer said oh good
this crazy guy who is screaming and
yelling just took his shirt off that
means things are about to get a little
more calm no that no police officer ever
thinks that so when someone takes their
shirt off that's usually an indication
that things are going to go to [ __ ]
taking your shirt off when you make
contact with police officers is not a
sign that like you're about to calm down
and be a reasonable human all right so
cops arrive they see Mr Rios is standing
outside of the McDonald's he's yelling
and screaming and he has taken his shirt
off um police officers identify
themselves you know they tell him to you
know get on the ground they're going to
try to place him into custody and at
that point what Mr Rios does is he takes
off his belt and he starts swinging the
belt around like he's a Ninja Turtle so
he's swinging his belt around so now
police officers have you now now police
officers have a couple decisions to make
so now they have this guy who's swinging
a belt so before he was swinging the
belt there were multiple police officers
there so before he swing in a belt we
have an individual who's unarmed so it
would be completely reasonable and
within policy for two police officers to
approach him each officer tried to grab
an arm and then you know use some type
of use of force that really only
involves empty-hand tactics and doesn't
involve any other weapon systems that
would be a completely reasonable thing
however once Mr Rios grabs the belt and
he starts swinging it around that really
isn't an option anymore that's not an
option anymore um for police officers to
go Hands-On because he's swinging around
a belt all crazy crazy if an officer
gets hit with that in the face they
could lose an eye again and then so now
you let's say he hits a police officer
and he smacks him in the eye and you
have this huge eye injury well now you
have another police officer there who's
you know probably not going to try to go
Hands-On anymore that could escalate to
an officer involved shooting which again
all of this is to avoid an officer
involved shooting so the police officers
you know basically what they decide to
do is to use their less lethal weapon
systems now I should say that less
lethal weapon systems are not non-lethal
meaning anything can kill you however
it's probably not going to right so we
we hear cases where people do die after
they are tased or after they are shot
with a bean bag shotgun or a uh 40 mil
so we hear cases like that um where that
does happen but statistically it is
really really rare that that might
happen um again especially when it comes
to especially when it comes to like
tasers you know again as a police
officer I was tased two times in the
academy if the taser was going to kill
people they wouldn't you know do it to
police Cadets in the academy but again
so it's not non-lethal people say
non-lethal that's correct it's less than
lethal because I mean anything like like
it it's there's a statistically low
probability that a turtle can kill you
but it still might so it's not
non-lethal it's less lethal Force option
so what police officer so what police
officer tries to do uh what a police
officer is do in this case is they
basically use two different less Lethal
Weapon system the first officer tries to
utilize a taser and he fires a taser at
Mr Rios that's not an unreasonable thing
to do that's that's a pretty good
decision the police officer tries to use
the taser he fires a taser it does not
have the desired effect which means it
doesn't work and that could be for a
couple reasons so the way that a taser
works is when you shoot out a taser it
basically shoots out two different
prongs now in order for it to
essentially work to have an effect both
prongs have to hit the individual so
both prongs have to hit the individual
um I'm going to take a side note kjun
Randy Cadets in the academy are not
elderly people I agree kjun Randy I went
through the police academy at 22 years
old however the oldest guy in my Academy
class was a guy named Garcia Old Navy
guy Garcia and he was 59 years old um
and he got Tas twice and he was fine
though 59 isn't elderly but I should
just say that you know there are older
people in the academy um so you know so
they so both prongs have to hit well you
can imagine that now we have a moving
Target trying to hit it with two
different prongs from a distance uh it's
it's G to be a difficult shot to make so
for whatever reason the taser was not
effective um so then another officer on
the other side had a bean bag shotgun
now bean bag shotguns are less lethal
weapon systems typically they're painful
as [ __ ] again so so bean bag shotguns so
police Cadets are not shot with bean bag
shotguns in the academy because that can
it can break skin it can lose it can
break a bone it can it can cause a giant
bruising so yeah bean bag shotgun it's
going to [ __ ] hurt but again it's
less lethal it's it's probably not going
to kill you I mean what what I can say
is you know I just retired from a pretty
big police Department after 20 years
police officers use bean bag shotguns
all the time in 20 years not one person
was killed by a bean bag shotgun um in
my police department in 20 years so
again so it's it's it's pretty rare that
it happens so what happened was the
police officer fired multiple bean bag
shotgun rounds I think it was two or
three bean bag shotgun rounds at Mr Rios
um in between each uh each firing um the
officer was giving Mr Rios commands to
get on the ground you get on the ground
drop the belt things like that and what
I can say about this case is as soon as
Mr Rios did fall to the ground and drop
the belt no more force was utilized
which is good that's what we want to see
here's what we want to see from police
officers we want police officers to use
necessary and reasonable Force until
there isn't a threat so sometimes and
we'll get into this in the next case
because this is this is the exact issue
that I'm going to talk about in the next
case but for what what we what we see a
lot of times is that you know police
officers use force and after they use
Force they just keep using force and
they don't stop pause and evaluate if
the situation changed but the officers
in this case they actually did that he
didn't just fire like bean bag ground
after bean bag ground he fired a bean B
ground commands Bean B ground commands
and as soon as Mr Rios fell to the
ground and dropped the and dropped the
um dropped the belt no more bean bag
rounds were fired and that's that's a
good thing that's what we want to see
from police officers to evaluate every
use of force to make sure that the
situation is the same and that there
still is an active threat so Mr Rios did
fall to the ground and uh you know I you
know basically where this goes is he was
shot in the chest with with the beanbag
shotgun round um he was shot in the
chest um there were some significant
injuries to his chest and he ended up he
ended up dying um so this is a case
where um he did he did pass away um um
and the injuries from the bean bag
shotgun were part of the reason were
part of the reason why um so again these
are less lethal not non-lethal so
obviously the police officer was wasn't
trying to kill Mr Rios if you know the
the police officer didn't utilize um
didn't utilize deadly force I mean you
have to think about it this way I mean
there's there's cases in baseball where
kids are playing baseball and they're
hit with a hit in the chest with with a
baseball or a softball or a bat in in in
in the wrong in you know essentially
like in the wrong way and somehow kids
die like that so this this kind of stuff
does happen now I should say that when
it comes to less lethal weapon systems
including the beanbag shotgun there are
targeted areas essentially what that
means is like if you're a police officer
hey like where are you supposed to shoot
the person at now again that can change
if there's a moving Target and Mr Rios
was moving he was moving around swinging
a belt so he wasn't just standing there
still but essentially where police
officers are not supposed to Target
intentionally Target for a bean bag
shotgun is the chest the groin and the
head um again now again if you have a
moving Target you could be aiming for
his arm but since he's swinging and
moving yes it's it's possible that you
might hit something something else so
that does happen um but yeah he was he
was shot in the chest I don't know if
part of it was because you know
typically when stuff like this happens a
lot of times people have drugs on board
as well or you know I don't know if the
fact that he didn't have a shirt on I'm
not sure if that um if that you know um
was also part of it but he did die from
his injuries and you know so what kind
of what I expect from a case like this
and really the reason that I'm I'm
covering this is because a lot of times
when there's something like this when
something that you know really wasn't uh
uh Kuro says how on Earth did it
penetrate the Skin So beanbag shotgun
rounds can penetrate the skin they can
penetrate the skin um they can cause
bleeding um I mean they typically don't
go like you know into your body and
stuff like that but I mean they can't
penetrate the skin and cause and cause
some bleeding most of the time what I've
seen and it it's it typically doesn't
and it just causes bruising um but you
know what's been described um in in the
news about this case is they described
that a significant injuries um I think
that was actually the the the the press
the press release from uh Fullerton
California is is the way that they
worded it so that's how so that's that's
why I use those uh specific words um so
kind of what I expect from cases like
this is that there is going to be some
kind of a backlash that there's going to
be some attorney somewhere that there's
going to be some activist somewhere
who's going to say you know look at this
case a bean bag shotgun just killed this
guy all this guy was yeah he was an
[ __ ] all he was doing was screaming
and yelling outside of a McDonald's you
know swinging a belt around and the
police officers you know this this this
dangerous weapon system killed them now
of course when people say that they're
not taking into account okay well
actually this has been used 50,000 times
and it's only the I made that number up
and it's only like like the percentage
of people dying is really really low and
then you go okay well what's the other
option for police officers again you
can't go Hands-On you don't want them to
use the bean bag shotgun you don't want
them use the taser you don't want to
them use the for M so what option do
police officers have between between you
know going handson and a handgun right
we have we have these weapons in the
middle that again nothing's perfect but
they're a little bit they're better than
only having the options of empty hands
and a handgun and um you know I'm going
to I'm going to give give an example of
why you know these less lethal weapon
systems um not only are they important
but almost equally as important are the
policies from police departments that
allow police officers to use these
weapon systems and if anyone disagrees
with me here definitely go ahead and put
it in the chat cuz I'm really curious to
see if people have other opinions on
this my opinion is that when it comes to
a police department use of force policy
that the use of these less lethal weapon
systems the bean bag shotgun the taser
and the 40 millimeter that police
officers should have you know a Latitude
that that you know there should be a
pretty big area where police and and you
know um a lot of different situations
where police officers are allowed to use
these weapon systems because here's my
argument if you con strict when police
officers can use these weapon systems
and really restrict when cops can use
these weapon systems that it's more
likely that there's going to be an
officer involved shooting and again at
least in my opinion maybe you disagree
but at least in my opinion that's what
we want to avoid we want to involve we
want to avoid deadly force we want to
see hey what can we do you know from
from the police standpoint what can we
do so there's less violence and less
death what can we do and yes no I don't
want people to be tased for no reason or
I don't want people to be Bean bagged
for no reason uh any use of force from
police officers must be objectively
reasonable and within the the confines
of the of the Constitution that goes
without saying but I don't think that
police officers having a restrictive use
of force policy is helpful I think it
actually causes more officer involved
shootings um and I'm going to give an
example from a real case that I that I
was looking at um when I when I was
working as a use of force investigator
um let me read this comment com from
Charles the bean bags have a place but
in this case it seems like there were
opportunities for deescalation that
didn't involve shotguns he didn't have a
knife or a hostage or anything yeah yeah
Charles you know I I agree could they
have spoke to him a little bit more
maybe um but again if if if you watch
the video um I don't I I don't know I
mean you always run the risk of if you
deescalate and deescalate and it's not
working um you know that does he try to
get back into the McDonald's does he run
does he try to run into traffic and you
know then if if that happens the
criticism of police will be like uh Hey
listen like you had this guy uh you
talked to him for eight minutes he was
obviously like out of his mind and
didn't know what planet he's on and you
have these less lethal weapon systems
that are literally designed to take
people into custody and not kill them
and instead you just let him run this
way and he tried to carjack someone and
then you had to shoot him yeah that
sounds like officer induced Jeopardy so
again Charles I I I appreciate I
appreciate the comments um but but again
I it could be argued it could be argued
a couple different ways though I always
love deescalation with a guy like this
Charles he wasn't communicating so a lot
of times when you deescalate someone and
so when you're a police officer and
you're working and you're someone's in a
mental health crisis there are times
that you know you have a dialogue so I
would say if there was some kind of a
dialogue say like hey I'm officer Dan
with with with with with the police
department and he goes Hey listen I'm
having a bad day I'm this like if
there's any kind of a dialogue Charles I
would say yeah police police officers
should absolutely engage with the person
and talk to them as long as the person
is talking but in this case Charles what
the body cam video shows is police
officers were trying to talk to him and
he was kind of like grunting and
screaming and making noises that were
for lack of a better term like not not
like reasonable words he was kind of
like mumbling and yelling and Swinging
this thing and there was like there was
no communication like the lights weren't
on in his house whether it was mental
illness or drug M mental illness or
drugs I don't have any idea but again um
um I'm just going to say one last time
that if police officers are having an
active dialogue with someone that yeah
police officers shouldn't be in a hurry
I'm good with it but this guy there was
no dialogue he was not responsive at all
to police so here's a story that I'm
going to tell so I was working as a use
of force in investigator uh and this
wasn't my case but the guy who sat at at
the ne next desk um to me he's a
sergeant now with our Police Department
um the next desk over he had a case come
across his desk you know a lot of times
when things like this happen um when
things like this happen you know
multiple multiple um in in in
investigators and supervisors kind of
look in and see like okay what what what
do we think about this case so here was
what happened in this case and this is a
police department that had a very
restricted use of force policy basically
they made it very difficult for police
officers to utilize these less lethal
weapon systems so here was a situation
there was a woman and she was a woman
like a 40-year-old woman she was armed
with this pipe she had a pipe and she
was in a residential neighborhood and
she was walking down the street and she
was taking the pipe and she was bashing
in cars she was damaging cars bashing in
cars out of her mind and she had this
pipe that's what she did police officers
get there they see all the damage so
right away we have felony charges right
so there's definitely felony charges the
the criminal damage to property um is
definitely felony level so there's an
objective so there's there there's a
reason for Poli a lawful objective
there's a reason for police officers to
detain or arrest her so now you have
this woman who's armed with this pipe
you got like four or five cops there you
know some of them have handguns some of
them have a beanbag shotgun some of them
have a taser and she she has this pipe
and the cops are there and she starts
walking towards the pipe at a walking
towards the cop cops holding this pipe
at a pretty fast rate of speed and
they're yelling at her and they're
giving her commands they're telling her
stop and she gets you know maybe 15 fet
from the cops and she stops and she
stops and she just holds the pipe like
this and they're giving her commands you
know get on the ground drop the pipe you
know things things like that that you
would expect police officers uh
that you would expect police officers to
say so after a few you know 30 seconds
or a minute of giving her commands one
of the officers decides to utilize a
taser so he tases her he tases her she
falls to the ground doesn't have any
injuries officers get her into handcuffs
and she's arrested for the felony
charges um so I look at that case and I
say you know what like no I never want
police officers to use Force but you
know what given this situation this is
actually a pretty good outcome because
here we have someone she committed a
felony she was armed with a pipe which
is a deadly weapon she's armed with a
deadly weapon and police officers were
able to get her into custody without
injuring her without injuring themselves
like like I'm saying that's a win right
that's a win so it gets to our our
office doing use of force investigation
and the the detectives who watching and
he goes he goes he goes hey bro he goes
this is going to be out of policy I go
hold on hang on just hang on a second he
goes this is going to be out of policy
basically what that means is that it was
improper for the police officer to
utilize that so out of polic so now if
this is going to be out of policy that
means for the rest of this cop's career
on their official record it's going to
say they have a tasing which is you know
a pretty serious use of force an outof
policy tasing on their record forever
that's going to affect maybe you guys
don't care but I care about this stuff
that's going to affect the cop
especially if a cop does good right
because even if you don't like cops my
guess is that you want good cops right
you want Cops to resolve situations
without deadly force if possible so so
you also shouldn't like stuff like this
cuz all does is discourage good cops
from wanting to be cops so you know you
know basically this could affect the
police officer for his entire career
this could affect transfers uh uh uh uh
being uh promoted to to a higher level
becoming an investigator this could
affect the police officer if they Tred
to go to a different uh a different
agency they could get put on one of
those lists where um you know they they
are like a Brady list or Giglio list
where they're not allowed to to testify
um and again this is a situation where
and I'm not exaggerating the case this
is literally the case and but it was
technically out of policy so we go well
hang on a second how is this possibly
out of policy so you know I we all
talked about it and we looked into it
and you know basically here's why here's
what the policy said the policy said
that police officers can only utilize a
taser if someone is actively resisting
arrest and you go okay well then what's
relevant well what's the definition of
active resistance well basically what
active resistance was is if someone is
actually ATT attacking the cop that
would be active resistance so the fact
that she was standing there holding the
pipe not doing anything not not actually
advancing at the cops anymore that was
not considered active resistance because
that wasn't considered active resistance
the police officers were not permitted
to utilize a taser so I asked the the
the the sergeant who was having this
discussion with us he's now a he's gone
up like two or three rings really smart
guy brilliant guy he's gone up two or
three ranks since this in in the police
department and I think that they're
absolutely lucky to have this guy but
you know was talking to him and I go
hang on hang on dude hang on hang on
sarge so what you're saying to me is
that this is out of policy I said sge
what would happen if she started
advancing towards the cops with that
pipe so she's 15 feet away and now she's
coming at the cops with a pipe what
would be the appropriate in policy level
of force and the sergeant says well they
would have to use deadly force and I go
exactly exactly so they would have to
utilize deadly force I said so what
you're saying to me is that what the
police department would prefer is that
police officers not utilize a taser like
they did where there was no injuries
they would prefer to wait until this
woman advances towards them and then
shoot her and that makes absolutely no
sense to me and I know cage and Randy
might might might disagree but when you
have restrictive policies like this
because again had she taken two or three
steps towards the cops they would have
shot her at that point when you're
coming at police officers at a close
distance with a pipe less than less
lethal tools are not appropriate because
that's a deadly force situation so my
opinion is that is that you know when
you have restrictive use of force policy
so basically to wrap the a wrap up that
case we all basically sat in the office
all of us all the way up like two or
three ranks above me the the sergeant
the the the the L llt the we all
basically said okay from a common sense
standpoint the cop did the right thing
um you know she wasn't injured she was
arrested the cops weren't injured like
objectively just from like a common
sense point of view this officer did
like the right thing but it's
technically out of policy so so that
that's that that's a problem so uh and
again to the last thing I'll say on this
is that it was after that case that we
worked up a new policy finally after
about a year and a half it got uh it got
it got reviewed it got it got um it got
approved and now the the policy with uh
uh the now the policy with this uh from
from from my my former department is as
of last summer the policy is is that if
someone is they basically added to the
definition of active resistance if
someone is if someone has a weapon you
know and they're not you know following
instructions of police officers then you
know essentially that scenario is
considered um is considered to be uh uh
is considered active resistance cinjun
says multiple man can't take a pipe from
a woman correct kjun Randy there is no
police training in the entire country
that would say that if a man or woman is
armed with a pipe that you should try to
take it from their hands and here's why
cjun Randy because if you try to if I go
me or someone else we go to try to take
a pipe from someone if during that if I
get smacked in the face well that could
cause serious injury or death now I'm
seriously injured the cop who's next to
me sees me seriously injured with my eye
hanging out of my socket what's that cop
going to do he's probably going to shoot
her and utilize deadly force and again
not everybody agrees you may not agree
cun Randy but my goal what I want is
less deadly force from police officers
so what can we do yes again I don't want
people to be tased or bean bag
unnecessarily anything like that but yes
I would rather have police officers tase
people a little bit quicker and have
them not be injured then for police
officers to wait a little bit too long
and have to kill someone because that's
what I really care about that's what I
really care about those are my opinions
I really appreciate Charles says I
didn't watch the video appreciate the
context thanks for bringing up topics
like this enjoy your content thank you
Charles and uh listen I I appreciate the
question Charles on the last video he
asked a very thoughtful and reasonable
question and um I I appreciate you know
we've actually done studies on this and
the viewers on Copwatch TV are about 30
IQ points higher than the general public
so thank you uh let's see Paul says the
woman had a weapon intent and delivery
system to series injured to police
officers good decision by police thank
you Paul I agree I agree it was and
again so if it happened today if this
case happened to the one I'm telling you
about if it happened today it would be
considered in policy and you know maybe
the cop would even be given a
life-saving award here's she committed a
felony she has a pipe she and police
officers got her into custody with no
injuries that's fantastic again like
literally exactly what we want Cops to
do but again you can't get so this cop
can't go back in time and say well hey
like you call this [ __ ] out of policy
but like you literally changed the
entire policy because of my case it
would have been fine now like there's no
way to go back so that's one of the I
know that's the the police union guy um
in me but that's a pretty irritating
thing um all right so the last case that
I'm going to talk about and I talked
about this case when it first happened
um I talked about this case when when it
first happened last
year um I talked about this case when it
first happened last year as a
controversial officer involved shooting
happened last fall but we have body
camera video from it for the first time
so up until very recently all we had was
Ring doorbell camera um from across the
street and I did talk about this case
when it happened um again it was made
national news it's been in national news
the last uh the last week or so again
and essentially this is the case of
Steven Perkins from decar Alabama uh
there's a civil rights attorney named
Lee Merritt who's trying to be like Ben
Crump he left Texas and he um left Texas
and went down to decar Alabama which he
had no context to and um so let me say
so the reason why I first noticed this
case it's because of the civil rights
attorney Lee Merritt from Texas who is
basically hired to represent the family
of Steven Perkins in decar Alabama and
you know you know one of the reasons why
I thought this was such a a strange
cases you know there were you know
essentially protests um um protests in
the streets after this officer involved
shooting and it's on cell phone video
that someone recorded it posted and
essentially what Lee Merritt you know
the civil rights attorney the leader of
some of these marches and protests what
he said is that um if the officers
aren't charged we need to and I quote
burn something down so again I I I don't
think language like that is is is
appropriate um but again it's been I've
long said that you know I think the way
that you know that some of these civil
rights attorneys are able to you know
basically screw the citizens and the
taxpayers out of big settlements is
because you know it's basically there's
a threat that hey if you don't give us
this settlement we're going to burn down
the [ __ ] downtown you know it's
always been a kind of something that I
thought happens well now we have video
of him actually saying it in this case
so let's get into the facts um also on
this case um I I did some posts um a
couple posts on this case um on Twitter
over the past week and I was contacted
by a guy named Dale Jackson um he's on a
he's a radio DJ um uh from
wvnn he calls himself Alabama's most
trusted journalist uh he's he does local
radio uh local news radio in Huntsville
Alabama um he's pretty much the guy
there he reached out to me on on on
Twitter and asked me to come on the show
so um I was actually on uh I was
actually on his show I think on u a
Wednesday morning um talking about
talking about this this case um so that
was that was a pretty cool experience
because he's local there in in Alabama
and he reached out to me to to give my
take on this case um so so let let me
just explain what happened here and this
is a case where you know I I I would say
that it's it's more like the first case
so a lot of time people come that I only
cover officer involved shootings where
the cops did everything right well again
we got two that you know their cops did
make mistakes so I think the Steven
Perkin case really is is pretty much is
pretty close to to the first case that
we covered with the 15-year-old in
California and here's why so basically
here's what happened and again we have a
lot more information because we have
body camera footage and also the 911
call has been released so again there's
no more guessing we know we know exactly
what um we know exactly what happened in
this case so here's what happened so uh
basically a guy who runs a he's a repo
guy he takes people's cars when they
don't pay so um this repo guy he went
over to Step Perkins Steven Perkins and
again uh stevenh Perkins not a bad guy
from everything we know about Steph
Perkins the one who is you know is shot
and killed by police Stephen Perkins
from all we know he's not a bad guy um
he works a full-time job he has a family
he had one arrest like for a DUI 10
years before this happened so again I'm
setting that up basically saying that
stevenh Perkins not a bad guy not a
[ __ ] not a career criminal not like
going out at night in the street looking
for people to victimize like not a thing
at all stepen Perkins a pretty
reasonable guy so what happened was is
that this repo guy had the repo order to
U basically take the the truck um that M
that Steven Perkins owned so here's what
the report is so so basically so
basically the the the report is that uh
the repo guy goes over to the house you
know at night like 2:00 in the morning
or something like that starts to hook up
the truck and during this stepen Perkins
comes out and um in the words of the
repo guy Steven Perkins flashed a gun at
me and at this point that's all we know
we don't know if he pulled the gun out
and pointed it or if he had in his
waistband and he kind of did a uh you
know a he kind of like just just moved
it so you could see that he had a gun
but you know basically what police
officers were told by the the victim I
guess is that you know during this repo
that stepen Perkins flashed a gun at me
well obviously that triggers a response
from police officer so police officers
went ahead and met the repo guy over at
his tow yard and they had a conversation
with him and during that conversation
you know police officers basically have
a couple different things so a lot of
times when you're a police officer in
dispatch to a call like this and you
have you it's easier the way I used to
like to do it is to kind of separate
issues you know because sometimes if you
have someone especially if they're a
victim of the crime they're going to
tell you a thousand things and they're
going to talk for an hour and it's not
going to be relevant so I try to get
people to be on point when I'm
interviewing people so so essentially
what I would want to know is okay we
have basically we have two different
issues here we have a repo okay so you
want to do a repo on this guy's car and
you know do you need police assistance
for that like that's one thing the other
one is hey this guy flashed a gun at you
like did you feel threatened do you want
to press charges and kind of going that
way so those are basically the two
issues in this case you know the
possible aggravated assault you know
possible possible aggravated Assa I
think in Alabama it's called menacing um
so possible menacing which is a strange
term you know possible menacing and then
also you know this repo um so you know
they had a conversation with him and you
know basically what it kind of sounded
like is the repo guy he didn't give a
[ __ ] about the criminal charges he
didn't want to mess around with that all
he wanted was this truck he just wanted
the truck he wanted to do the repo and
essentially he wanted assistance from
police officers so now police officers
basically have a decision to make and
this is when first line Supervision in
police there is no substitute for good
and competent and experienced firstline
supervisors there are so many incidents
there are so many incidents that we
cover on this cover on this channel and
that we and that and that and that we
see and that we see on body camera video
where if there was a good firstline
supervisor you call up hey sge and the
sge goes hey what the [ __ ] you guys
doing you know and no no no we're going
to do this this is what the policy says
this is law hey I mean there's there's
no again there's no there's no
substitute for competent firstline
supervision because you know um there
there's because cops have the ability to
turn um you know uh civil things into
criminal matters or criminal and civil
so that's why having a good first line
supervisors is good so well that didn't
happen in this case for whatever reason
because what the police officers ended
up doing is they ended up going over to
the house and essentially helping the
tow truck guy with the repo so they
essentially set up all around the house
right so they set up so the guy's truck
is in is in the driveway they set up
kind of on near the rear of the truck
closest to the garage so one officer's
there there's another officer who's
across the street and you know they're
kind of doing it in a way where it's
like they're almost expecting Steven
Perkins to come out armed with a gun
which so that's actually not an
unreasonable expectation that's what I
want police officers to expect to happen
that hey Steven Perkins he the first
time that this car tried to be C he came
out at least at least armed with a gun
don't know if he pointed it but at least
armed with a gun so now repo guy an hour
or two later he's going to come back out
and do the same thing like the idea that
Stephen Perkins is going to have the
same reaction or an angrier reaction
like again that's not unreasonable that
doesn't mean that Stephen Perkins is a
bad guy I'm going to ask you whether
you're imagine that you're a a cop or
imagine that you are whoever you happen
to be in life and 2:00 in the morning in
your mind you've made all your car
payments for whatever reason you've made
all your car payments and you've got a
repo guy tring to trying to take your
truck at 2:00 in the morning without any
kind of conversation are you going to be
pissed off yeah now should you go and
point a gun at people well no you can't
use lethal Force to defend property but
again the idea that Steph Perkins was
mad and upset and irritated about this
like I get it I get it 100% if someone
tried to do that to my car knowing I've
made my car payment I'd be pretty
irritated and I don't know what my
reaction would be hopefully I wouldn't
point a gun at anybody but again it it's
you could you could you can imagine you
can imagine that stepen Perkins is mad
and the police officers should have
anticipated that his reaction is going
to be the same and it seemed like they
did anticipate that because they weren't
just like uh nonchalant just hanging out
and hanging in their cars like all right
dude we're going to be hanging in the
cars you we'll be down the block go
ahead and do your thing no they like set
up tactically on this house and the repo
guy he starts to take the car and as
he's taking the car predictably Steven
Perkins comes out of the house but this
time he but this time he has the hand
gun in his hand there is a light that is
mounted on the handgun and he's pointing
it and he's pointing the handgun and
he's and he's uh uh pointing the handgun
at police officers there's a police
officer who is standing near the rear of
the truck he's standing near the rear of
the truck there is a light mounted on
the handgun and the body cam footage
shows this very clearly where the police
officer is behind the truck Steven
Perkins he points the gun and the light
from the gun covers the police officer
so again there is literally no factual
dispute the police officer had a gun
pointed directly at him the gun was
poined at him officer uh Marquette is
his name he had a gun pointed at him as
soon as the gun was poined at uh officer
Marquette as soon as the gun was pointed
at officer Marquette officer Marquette
yelled police get on the ground and then
he started shooting there was no Gap
there was no there was no Gap really if
you watch the body camera video from the
the time that he yelled police it was
police get on the ground shoot there was
no there was no time Steven Perkins had
zero time to comply with get on the
ground zero time he would have had to be
superhuman in order to
comply with that with that command of
get on the ground before he was shot by
a police officer now a couple things we
don't know what stepen Perkins intent
was was
he so here are my questions did Steven
Perkins know that it was police officers
was Steven Perkins trying to purposely
poting a gun at the cop or because it
was like 3:00 in the morning and it was
dark outside he was using the light on
the gun to basically see who it was or
what was going on essentially was he
using the gun as a flashlight which
again is a terrible idea right and
police officers are not allowed to do
that okay um Steve Perkin is not a
police officer but was he using the gun
to light up to see who it was did Mr
perk know that it was police officer
like these are these are reasonable
questions and you know Steven Perkins he
was shot by uh officer Mar Marquette he
was shot and killed by Officer Marquette
and the police officer is now facing
murder charges he's facing murder
charges and all police officers on scene
I think there were like four or five of
them they've all been fired from the
Department um I've got a lot of issues
with this case and I'm going to tell you
exactly what those are so my first issue
with this case my the main issue with
this case is that the cops should have
contacted detained arrested notified
somehow made contact with Mr Perkins
before the second repo was allowed
because again exactly what they thought
was going to happen happened so what I
would ask the if I was the
administrative investigator for this
case if they did an administrative
investigation if I was the internal
affairs investigator which I worked in
Internal Affairs for a couple years
here's the here's one of the questions
that I would ask I'd say okay so you had
this repo Mr Perkins you know he at
least had a gun you it seems like you
kind of thought he was going to come out
with a gun again because you set up
tactically on the house hey what was
your plan when Mr Perkins came out with
the gun what was your plan was your plan
just to shoot him was your plan to give
him commands like what was the thinking
what was the plan when he came out with
a gun you knew he was going to come out
with a gun what was the plan that would
be my question for those officers
because there wasn't a plan the idea
that and again police officers do not
have to get involved involved in civil
matters so police officers do not have
to help out with a repo they could have
told the repo guy Hey listen like you
don't want to press charges on Mr
Perkins great but listen it's night time
it's a dangerous situation so listen
here's what you're going to do we're not
going to go out with you because it's a
dangerous situation for something civil
We're Cops we don't enforce civil law
that repo order we're not getting
involved I'm not going to interpret that
I'm not a notary I don't know what I'm
looking for on this and that would be a
correct thing for a police officer to
say to not take sides in a civil dispute
only to keep the peace it would be
reasonable for officer say Hey listen
you have your officer manager call him
tomorrow and like you know you try to
work it out that way but like we're
we're not we're not getting involved in
this that would be the the reasonable
thing for a police officers to say um
they didn't they decided to help him out
with the repel fine but they should have
contacted Mr Perkins beforehand it's
absolutely insane that they didn't
essentially this is a very predictable
situation that Mr Perkins is going to
come out with a gun and again they had
no plan for it that's my biggest problem
with this case um that being said I just
went through all of my I went through a
lot of my problems with this case that
being said I don't think the officer
should be facing criminal charges that
doesn't make any sense because at the
time of the shooting no matter what
police officers did before and again
officer Mar Marquette he wasn't the
sergeant on scene he wasn't the
supervisor so again he had a gun pointed
at him and it's not just him saying that
and it's kind of fishy no no no we we
have body camera video that shows the
light from Mr Perkins gun covering the
officer he literally had a gun pointed
at him when he fired at Mr Perkins again
if that is not a reasonable response
from a police officer you point a gun at
me now I'm going to shoot it's not like
hey we thought Mr Perkins had a gun or
he had in his pocket and he kind of
reached for it or he had it in his hand
and we thought he was going to move it
up no no no like again we are we are
past the red line the gun is pointed at
officer Marquette and yes he um he said
he said uh police get on the ground and
then he shot I think that is an
objectively reasonable officer involved
shooting despite all of the problems
that I just said and there were problems
in this case I got a lot of issues with
this case but the actual moment that the
trigger was pulled yeah it was
objectively reasonable um again again if
you don't think it was objectively
reasonable I'm going to ask you what
police training is there that would say
hey when a gun is pointed at you you
have to negotiate like you can't like
like there's literally no and and if
there's no there's no state manded
police training that would say that so
if there's no nothing that would tell a
police officer that holding police
officers to that level it it doesn't it
doesn't make any sense um so when I was
on the show um D Dale Jackson show you
know he basically asked me a couple you
know like really good questions the
question that that Dale Jackson asked me
he said so police officers do they have
to give a warning like do they have to
give a warning before they utilize
deadly force and I thought God damn
that's a good question well the answer
is no police officers don't now should
police officers give a warning yeah yeah
they they they should if feasible so
most Police Department policy is going
to say you should give a warning if
feasible we talked about a case the the
earlier today with the with the bean bag
shotgun where I said the officers gave
commands and warnings to to Mr Rios
before they use the taser and the bean
bag shotgun hey stop or I'm going to
tase you hey stop you're going to get
bean bagged yeah that's great if if
there's a time to do it now in that case
Mr Rios was at a distance and he was
swinging a belt the cops weren't in
immediate danger when someone is
pointing a gun at you like the time to
negotiate and give warnings like that
time has passed because your life may
have only moments left to it so yes
police officers are not required by
policy or law to give a warning when
someone is pointing a gun them there
that is not a requirement and it
shouldn't be a requirement yes if police
officers have time and it's reasonable
absolutely give all the warnings
deescalate if you can when the gun is
pointed at you the time for deescalation
has passed that was really good question
by by Mr Jackson the other question he
asked he said hey what do you think
should the officers be fired should the
officers be fired um for you know what
they did in this case and that was also
an interesting question so I guess my
opinion on that is you know if the
police officers violated policy so if
there is policy and I don't know the
decor Alabama police department did they
have policy or training on how to handle
a situation like this like a lot of
police departments have policiy say hey
if there's a civil dispute here's how
you guys handle it you know if there's a
call or they may have a policy says hey
if there's a call for service where
someone there's reported to be a gun or
someone is armed or like these are the
protocols that you take here's the
policy here's the training so if that
was in effect with Decor police
department and there's a fair
investigation if at the end of the the
investigation it's determined um that
the police officers violated policy then
I I really don't have any issue um with
with with termination being on the table
for this case at least for the officer
who was in charged here's what I'm
saying like I don't know if there was a
sergeant on scene let's say that there
was a sergeant on scene and three
regular cops and the sergeant on scene
says all right guys here's what we're
going to do you go here you go here you
go here well again the officer who the
the officer who has two years on
listening to the sergeant who has 10
years on and the sergeant says hey go
stand over there and you know by the
back of the truck like no that officer
shouldn't be fired the sergeant sure or
you know whoever was in charge of that
scene yeah I I don't have an issue with
officers being terminated um if they
made that decision um but again it's not
criminal um you know I also uh also I
was contacted by uh I don't if anybody
follows uh officer Ben he runs a channel
called thoughts of a police officer on
YouTube and Instagram me and Ben go back
and forth all the time and uh you know
he reached out to me this morning asking
me about this case and uh we're kind of
going back and forth and you know what
what Ben pointed out to me is he said
you know okay well here's where I think
an issue could be could be on this case
Ben officer Ben said you know well after
after um uh Mr Perkins was on the ground
he was on the ground he was shot he
dropped the gun like he's he's done for
right he's obviously not a threat
anymore the officer Marquette he fired a
bunch of more shots at them like you
know what do we think is that going to
be an issue and uh again that's a really
good question I don't think so I don't
think it's going to be an issue and
here's why so we've had this with other
cases right where police officers you
know shoot you know uh 90 times and I'm
not exaggerating on there's a case in
Minnesota last year involving an
individual named Jaylen Walker who had
previously shot at police officers um he
reached into his waistband and started
turning around and police officers U
multiple eight different cops fired 90
times hitting him 46 times um and all
this is in Minnesota not necessarily a
police friendly place all those officers
were cleared and you basically what I
said in that case is what I'm going to
say in this case it's basically you know
how many shots that were fired isn't
really that relevant here's what's
relevant the first shot that was fired
was that shot reasonable
legal can we see why the officer did
that if the first shot is Justified then
you know the subsequent shots not as
relevant now obviously you know if it
goes on for 10 seconds well that's a
different story and that didn't happen
here but again if someone is no longer a
threat and the officer fires a couple
more shots like that's not that
unreasonable and here's why it's not
that unreasonable and if I were the
attorney for officer Marquette who is
facing murder charges in this case you
know basically here's the information
that I would try to get to the jury I
would basically if if the issue of too
many shots like hey he's no longer a
threat here we're going to play it in
slow motion even though in real life it
was like two and a half seconds we're
going to play in slow motion so it takes
18 seconds and look he just keeps firing
so basically here's what I would say if
I were the attorney for officer Mar
Marette I would say okay listen here's
how this goes so when you're in a
stressful situation we've done science
on this weekend of experts testify you
know when you're in a stressful
situation like this you know we know how
the human body performs essentially you
know essentially from the time that the
officer sees or any human bull saying
officer because that's what he is from
the time the officer can see hey there's
no more threat the brain has to process
that and that has to tell the body that
takes about a second and a half so it
takes about a second and a half for a
normal human under stress to realize
there's no more threat stop shooting
that takes a second and a half so how
many times on average do police officers
fire every second the answer is four you
know police officers typically can fire
about four times a second so an so a
police officer under perfect conditions
like like perfectly functioning police
officer in this situation would fire six
extra shots so again if officer
Marquette was perfect like 100% perfect
we should expect six extra shots being
fired so how many extra shots were fired
you know I think it was like six or
eight or something like that so again it
it's one of those things that it doesn't
look great on body camera footage but if
you know just a tiny bit about this kind
of a situation a police officers aren't
robots and like the exact millisecond
instant that Steven Perkins dropped the
gun that the officer can just stop no it
takes the human body about a second and
a half uh to make that change um let's
see if we have any questions on this
case oh it doesn't look like we do um
well we'll go ahead and and keep
following the Sten Perkins case because
the officer's firing uh is the officer
is facing murder charges I do not think
the officer should be facing charg I
think it's pretty ridiculous um and you
know what that's going to be the last
case that we go ahead and follow today
uh cover today so um you know as I've
said before throughout the week I check
the chat so if there are other uh cases
you think are interesting that you want
us to cover you want to have a
discussion about definitely put it in
the chat throughout the week um that
being said um if you haven't already
please go ahead and subscribe to the
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Daniel you can go ahead and follow me
everywhere at over at police law news
and I hope that everyone has a great and
safe weekend thanks
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