expected that just just listen. Just like you told the searchers that she's not coming back and she's dead, stop with the [ __ ] now about her walking in. You've said that mantra just like you said. I casino to the casino. >> On May 8th, 2019 in Pittsfield, Wisconsin, James Popovitz was questioned after reporting his wife, Victoria Percopitz, missing from their home in 2013. She was later determined to have died as a result of homicide. Spoiler details are in the video description and the full results of all charges in the case are laid out at the end of the video. >> Just listen, okay? Just listen to me. Promise. Just hear me out. >> Okay? Now, when she took the sand, she got the same admonishment that you did from the judge. Remember the judge? >> Yeah. >> Read you kind of the rules of the court. kind of like what I did. I just read you kind of what what what your rights are, how this is going to work. Okay? She was brought here, too. Okay? I just got Roman and I just came done. We just got done with her and we talked to her for a long time. She said a lot of stuff on the stand. Okay? We know that there are some things that weren't true. We know that. Okay. She has set the record straight on some stuff. This is no [ __ ] >> All right. >> Okay. She's sorry. She's regretful. She's crying. She's taking some responsibility. And all I can tell you, Jim, is I don't know who it is down the road. I don't know if it's a judge. I don't know if it's a jury. I don't know who it is. All I can tell you is from my experience, they like to see contrition. So if I make a bad choice or a bad decision and I lied and lied and lied and I lied for for six years and I finally say, "Okay, that's it. I got I got to stop the nonsense." I think a big burden has been lifted from her and I think she's explained some things and and we have a some understanding of some things. Okay. So, she wants to see you. >> Mhm. >> Okay. That's against my better judgment. Okay. Rowan said, "Hey, you did the right thing, Kathy. We'll let you see Jim." Okay? This can't be a long sit down thing or anything like that. >> Is she going to jail, too? >> We'll we'll talk about that. Okay. Cuz her animals, there's no way to take care of her animals. >> We understand. We understand. Okay. But she made her choices and decisions, too, Jim. >> Yes, I know. >> She heard she heard the same admonishment as you. When the judge says you can't lie, >> I know >> then you can't lie. >> I know. It just gets you jammed up and it the small the the the the snowball, it gets bigger. >> It's just not worth it. >> It's not worth it. So, when we're done here, >> if you play nice with me, we'll kind of let you see Kathy real quick and we'll let you know how things are going to play out here. Okay. But that that depends upon some certain certain things here. Okay. >> Yeah. What do you think about all this? She had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. nothing to do with anything. I didn't do anything to what Vicki, >> what what are you thinking about this? I don't care about her. We're done with her. Okay, we're done with her. She's taking her responsibility and we'll we'll go on from there. >> Do whatever you want. Ask me questions. I'll tell you anything I can to straighten something out. >> But if she goes to jail, I'm not going to be a happy camper. Hold on here. She made some choices. I know she did, but I'm still not going to be a very happy character. And she said that you did that for her, some things for her. She's taking responsibility. So, just don't blow your stack. You You got to just let's stay even keeled here. Okay. >> I tried. >> I know. And I'll give you as much space as I can, but you can't be blowing up on me. We have to be rational and respective, Jim. All right. >> I've Have I ever misled you? >> No, you haven't. >> All right. And I'm not going to start now. There's nothing worth it. >> Okay. When I listen to you today, Jim, I'm going to call her Wendy. Okay. She's the deputy district attorney. Okay. Every time I listen to her ask you a question where it was going to elicit a response that didn't that wasn't going to paint you in a positive light. >> Okay. Every single time there was tens of questions today. every single time it was a question where it wasn't going to paint you in a good light. Let's just take a domestic years and years ago or let's take a gun incident, whichever one you want. Okay. >> Every time you answered, >> "Nope, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. It wasn't like that." They're lying. Okay. I'm not the judge. >> Okay. I'm just the factfinder. >> I sat there like the judge and like Roman and everyone in the courtroom. Okay. Jim, that's all of that stuff is not believable. There were there's there's other facts that the investigation knows. Okay, which showed what the truth is. So by and all I'm saying is I'm not perfect either, Jim. But I have to take responsibility if I make a poor choice or a bad decision. >> We've all had to do that. Uh, so all I'm saying, Jim, is there were times today I know you weren't honest because we know the truth about a few of those things. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, you are in the driver's seat right now. Okay. >> I don't know where you want this to go. But if I were you and you want to control some of your destiny, you got to do that now. >> See what you ask me. I I'll try. >> It's not about what I'm going to ask you, Jim. It's about what the truth is. And everything that was testified today was not the truth. >> No, not everything. And that's going to get you jammed up on the small end. And the small stuff leads to something really, really big. Vickiy's dead. Vickiy's dead. >> Okay. If you say she's dead, she's dead. I don't know. >> Vickiy's dead. >> I don't know. I don't know. That is the truth. I don't know. This has this whole case has a lot of ripples and you can see that you know it is one of the ripples is one of the li one of the loves of your life. She is also in custody. Is it worth that Jim? She should be home watering her donkeys, letting the dog out, feeding the peacocks. She is a mess. And you have to admit, Jim, she's in she's involved in this because of you. I'm not laying that's just the facts. >> Yes. >> And she has come to that realization now. >> Okay. >> All right. You have to be truthful and honest, Jim, or whatever you want to salvage here. I mean, you are going to lose the entire world. What do you want? What do you want me to say? What? It's not No, no, no. I It's not >> What do you want to ask? It's not what I want you to say. >> What you what the truth is. >> I'll tell you the truth if you ask me the questions. All right. >> Let's talk about one thing. The meeting at the casino did not happen. >> No, it did not. >> It was at the truck stop. >> So, tell me about that. >> It was at the truck stop. >> So, when you So, Vicki goes missing. >> Yep. How long after Vicki goes missing does it take you to reach out to make contact? >> I don't know. >> 6 weeks, 5 weeks. I I I don't >> to the Here's here's another thing. >> To the best of my knowledge. >> Here's another thing because it just came to mind because you I think you just you did something that you were doing today in court. We I have all of your interviews right here. I've been studying and studying and studying and studying. Okay. The inconsistencies, the patterns, the the lies, the all that kind of stuff. Right. You lied to the court. Bottom line is that's going to get jammed up. Judge told you not to lie. I know. I know. I know. All right. today. You told a whole bunch of different stuff. Every time Wendy asks you a question, you're trying to make yourself a moving target. And it's just it it's it's it's making you a bigger you're making yourself a bigger deal. Don't do that, Jim. I am pleading with you. This has all been dragged out because of certain actions by you, by Kathy, right? >> Okay. It doesn't have to be that way. Let's let's get this done in one package cuz every time we prove something else that's different, wrong, it it's going to have bad consequences for you. Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right. I just want to have that understanding. I understand. I'm pleading with you to do the right thing. >> I'll do the right thing. I got to clear her. >> To the best of your recollection, Vicki goes missing. Okay. >> Yeah. >> To the best of your recollection, truthfully, how long does it take you to reach out to your friend Kathy? I five, six weeks. I I don't remember. >> All right. Five, six weeks. >> Somewhere in there. >> I'm going to write it down. So I five, six weeks, >> maybe longer. I >> But somewhere in five, six weeks plus or minus. >> Yeah. >> Okay. If that's the truth, that's I'll I'm with you. Okay. You called Kathy. >> Yes, I did. You're going through a bad time. Yeah. Um, you've been sweet on Kathy for a long time. >> No, we call good friend. >> Good friends. >> Whatever. Okay. You call her up. How does that work? >> I called her up. >> Do you have the phone number? >> Uh, yeah. I >> So, you know how to get in touch with her? >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> And I said, "Hi, how you doing?" Should I know it's your birthday this month? Or what was your birthday in May? They said, "Happy birthday. How's everything going?" Well, not good. Okay. That's what she told me about Marv dying, passing away. That guy who's living with her for 30 years. Then that he had had heart surgery, whatever. Whatever. She asked me how things were going. I said, "Not good." Vicki disappeared and she felt here I'm telling her about telling him about Marvin and and his wife took off on her. >> So she felt crappy about that. >> She felt crappy about it. >> Okay. So I don't remember if it was that phone call. It may have been. I said, "How about we meet in Wittenberg or something?" Halfway have coffee and just talk about it. >> Sure. No, I don't remember when it was decided what when we were going to meet or where we were g I we knew it was going to be at truck stop >> there. >> I said I'll be parked up there in that blue pickup truck that I had from work. I said I'll be at a long way. >> Was she familiar with that? >> No. >> Okay. >> Nope. She didn't never saw it before. Had no idea what it was, what it looked like, what. Okay. >> I said there'll be a fuel tank in the back you'll see and probably pretty dirty. I said, "I'll park on I park on the on the west side or east side of the truck stop up there or the building." But you know, she pulled in. I recognized her when she pulled in. Did you know what her vehicle was? >> No, I didn't know what it was, but she pulled up right alongside of me, looked at me, and smiled. And I I knew it. I knew where to smile. I knew it was her. Yep. And we got out, gave her a hug, and we talked and talked. How long? Oh, for a while. I said, "You want to stay at the hotel tonight?" "I don't know. I don't know what she was." I said, "Well, why not?" Cuz her son just won't take care of this, right? I said, "Yeah, she I finally talked her into it." Okay. Went to the motel. We talked for quite a while. Just >> now which motel tell me >> the western or whatever it was. >> Okay. >> Whatever that one is over there by the trucks. >> Yep. >> You know which one it is. Right. >> And I we ended up in bed together. >> Yep. >> Got up early. I can't >> So So I wasn't far off. When I say you're sweet on her, you're sweet. >> Well, I was. Yeah. Not Not but I I >> You know what I'm trying to tell you. Absolutely. If she wouldn't have come, I probably, you know, if she would said, "No, we don't want to meet," that probably would have been the end of it. >> Mhm. But she came and she met. What the hell? >> Yeah. And like I said, there were years ago, I know you probably heard this. I told her how many times how I got to know her. >> Mhm. And then after I quit over the road, I still kept in contact with her every three, four, five years I call her up. You try and remember in May and say, "Hey, happy birthday. How it's going." You know, and like I say, the last I don't know when the last time was I called her before this, but like I say, I did not know that she wasn't working anymore. She told me she hadn't been working for three years after we got talking. And I didn't know about Marg having heart surgery and all that other stuff. So, it was five, six years. >> Mhm. At least before I had called her, you know, the last time I had called her before. >> So, no affairs with her? >> No. >> But stayed in contact every >> Happy birthday. >> Yes. >> So, that's accurate. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Every three, four, five years. >> Yeah. >> And then we spent the first that first night together. >> Mhm. So, just so there's no mis confusion, the first time you ever had sex with Kathy was that first time you met with her at the truck stop and then went to the hotel. Yes. >> And that was uh five, six weeks. >> Six weeks, >> maybe longer. I don't remember. >> Fair enough. >> Five, six weeks plus or minus. >> Six weeks. We know it's a long time, >> but May, you know, I I we thought it was around the 4th of July. >> Sure. >> Somewhere in there. But some But would you would you concede though with some of the and I think you did today with some of those bills, you know, some of the the credit card statements. >> No, I really didn't know about about >> Okay. I didn't know about the big credit card bill. That I did not know. >> Okay. But there but there are some bills with there's some phone stuff. There's some phone records and and with some of the bills and stuff. It could have been a little earlier in June. I think you guys are talking about two different things. You're talking about the default and and >> yeah, bills. He's talking about there's some receipts and records from credit card statements when you guys are meeting for stuff. When you're paying for stuff when Kathy was paying for it. Yes, it was in June. >> Okay. In June, then that's when we >> And that's possibly be that early in June. >> June. Yes. >> That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So you you had coffee first, whatever. Had a little lunch, whatever. Morning, noon, or night. Is this midday? >> Midday sometime. >> Do you pay for >> I pay for the room. >> Okay. But you pay for the room. >> I paid for the coffee or whatever. >> Sure. I don't know. All right. >> And then you guys stayed overnight. Did you part the next day? >> Yes. >> Did you stay together? >> No. No. No. I think we farted right shortly after before before checkout time was. I can't remember what that was on a I think that was on a was that on a Sunday? I don't remember. Okay. But we always stayed the one night. That was it. So, let me just fast forward. So, you had that and then you guys stayed in communications pretty regularly. >> Yes. After that, we did. Yes. Okay. >> And then how often were you meeting after that? >> Usually every weekend. >> So was it the next weekend then when you guys got together? >> Yeah. >> After that first time. >> Yeah. >> So I think it was Okay, that's fine. At what point, Jim, do you find out about or how does the casino story, how does that come about? Be honest with me. We just figured it'd be better than saying we met and shacked up right away the first night. >> Mhm. >> And who thought of that? >> I don't remember if I came up with it or Kathy came up with it. And just tell me that sounded better to you guys because why? I don't know. I mean, who I mean, if you if you if you got two consenting adults, you go to the motel, why do you have to have a story? I don't know. >> I don't know. >> Okay. I I don't know why. >> And you don't remember whose story that? >> No, I don't. If I mentioned something that way or she mentioned something that way, >> but there was an agreement between you two. >> Yes. That that would be the story. >> This is the story. >> If they whatever that was the agreement between us. Okay. This has got ripples. Yeah, that one little story I know. >> Really wrapped her up because you got you got guys that are working this case. I mean, you know what we do for a living, Frank. >> I know. I know. >> And you knew that we were going to just keep coming back because we knew it was bogus. >> I know. >> All right. And I know the first time you talked to me, you figured I killed her. I know you did. I I could just feel it. I could feel it that that you said in your mind he did it. He did something to her. Well, I'm sorry. That's the feeling I got. I'm honest with you. >> Sure. >> Just the way I'm honest with you. I want you to be honest with me. >> Just sort of the way it it was going. I had that they think I did something to her. And I I I don't care. They charge me for whatever they want, but I did not do anything to her from today on the stand. You've been lying. I'll just say to the investigation essentially. You've been lying to the Roman and I for a long time. Today you lied on the stands of the judge, the court. Okay. Is that after you? >> Yeah. Well, I lied about how we met. And >> did you know that lying to us was wrong and illegal? >> Yeah, in a way. I mean, >> didn't feel good. >> No, but your conscience told you it was wrong, right? >> Yeah. >> What do you teach the kids? >> Tell them the truth. Tell them the truth. Tell them the truth. >> First day of kindergarten. Yeah, I know that the lie is worse than the or the cover up is always worse than the lie. >> Did you know that lying in court after? >> Did that I probably end up in jail for that. >> Okay. Did you know that I was wrong? >> Yes, I did. >> And did you know that it was illegal to lie to the court after being put under oath? >> Yes, I did. I answered them questions. >> Yeah. Why? Why did you do it that way? >> I don't know. Just to try and keep our story straight. Once you go down that, you chose that path and there was kind of a point of no return. No, I don't. And you just felt like you had to keep going with it. >> No, I don't. >> All right. So, you lie. Okay. >> I don't care what it is, Jim. I'm I want to give you a little rope. Okay. Tell me another thing that you lied about on the stand today about anything >> cuz there there was quite a few. >> But but I I I just I want to I want to kind of offer that about whacking the car in the ass with the work truck. I did do that, >> right? >> Didn't smash the pickup truck. Didn't put a dent or nothing in the pickup truck. >> What you know? Didn't nothing. Not a >> Right. >> Mark on it. >> Yep. >> Messed up the car. >> Yep. And that was the car. >> Yeah. >> So that was the you you you rear ended Vicki. >> Yeah. >> And she was driving her car. >> Driving her car. >> And you were driving your work truck. >> Yeah. >> And you had both been drinking. >> Yeah. >> And this was in this village of Palaski. >> Right in town. Yeah. And then you you and Vicki came up with a story to have Wesley report it to the police and file a case of >> well or something. Yeah. That it was they get run or whatever. >> And that was so you don't lose your license driving. >> Probably. I don't know if I was drunk or not, but >> under the influence. >> Under the influence. >> They would have found something that wouldn't have been good. And >> CDL's gone and >> Yep. Yep. You know, CDL. Well, I don't know what it is if you're driving a personal vehicle, but I think otherwise it's 0 low. >> It's I don't know if it's 0.1 or two, you know. >> Yeah, that way. >> And even with a >> right your own car, you get caught. >> Yep. It's just gone, >> right? And we get it. You want to provide for your family. They can't They don't want the income to go away either. You do what you got to do to, >> you know. Yep. >> Okay. So, who who asked Wes to tell that story? >> I don't know if it was me or Vicki or her and I come up with it together and ask Wes. I I don't remember that night, >> right? Just how how we came up with the story of it. >> And he did that. >> He did it. And he did that. Why? >> Mom asked him. >> Okay. What What was the big reason? I I don't know. >> Well, so you don't lose your CDL? >> Yeah, probably. You know, >> family income. >> Yeah, probably. >> You get in trouble. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. There we know for a fact. Okay. There are some things domestically before Vicki. >> Yeah. >> That happened. >> There was some. Yes. But some of that stuff did not. >> Give me one for instance that did happen about busting a gun and me threatening to go and commit suicide. >> Okay. I took the rifle in and smashed it, bent the barrel, broke stock off. >> Okay, that did happen. But as far as pointing a gun at them at their head, no, that I did not do. But so so some of that happened. Some of it happened, some of it didn't. But at why would multiple people, Jim, okay, all tell the same lie? >> I I don't >> I'm just saying I I don't understand. I don't think that's probable. >> I I think that I know where you're coming from. >> And And does And do you Let's say hypothetically. Okay. Let's say it really did happen. Okay. Why Why would What would be your reasons why you wouldn't want to to be honest about that or tell the truth about that? >> Well, you get in trouble, I suppose. Well, >> not not now anymore. No, >> but but related to to to now. Well, I suppose related to now he he was violent. He might do something stupid. He might and he was violent. Okay. Now, whether whether you admit to that or not, Jim, it's out there. >> Mhm. And I can tell you that it would be my opinion that Jim's probably not credible. The other people are credible because they we know that they told the some truth. They told the truth on something else. And and the court knows that there were lies. >> Uhhuh. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. So it's the same thing with anybody, any profession. If you lie about this, you lie about that. >> Mhm. >> And if you lie about this and that and that, >> I mean, then everything is >> it kind of outs the door and gets attached. >> And it it looks ridiculous. It's It's not I don't know how to explain it. I mean, Roman tells it real good. I mean, to lie to lie well, it takes skill, art, frequency to do that. To do it well, >> you're exactly liar. That's a good thing. >> Mhm. >> Right. We can see through the lies. The the lies are like, you know, big red blinking lights above your head on the stand. >> Mhm. >> Did you feel me looking at you? >> Yeah. >> I was trying what I was trying to do is I swing my head. I'm like, Jim, don't lie about that. >> You know what? I was trying to send you a telephone document. >> Signal. I'm like, "Oh, please don't." Oh, [ __ ] He just did. >> You know what I mean? >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Give me another domestic thing that >> I think Jim wants to fix the one you just talked about. I think with the whole you were you were fed up. You broke the gun. Uh you may have not pointed the gun at >> No, I did not point the gun at him. That that >> is there was there a time that maybe the gun they may have felt that it was pointed in their direction. >> That's possible. I mean you're in a tirade and hey, >> I talk stupid when I get mad. Yeah, >> he probably talks stupid when he gets mad. >> I have to believe you talk stupid when you get mad. We We get stupid. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, whatever you're saying or doing, and you always have to remember, it's maybe not what you meant >> to portray. Okay? You might not mean it, but how does this person see it? How does this person feel it? >> You know what I mean? You you don't know what their perception is. How how would your daughter have maybe possibly perceived this whole gong thing? And then and then this is your chance to say, "No, honey, I didn't. That wasn't my intention, but I could see how you may have perceived this, Lisa." >> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> Was there a time that you were waving cuz you were talking with your hand? Yeah. Around Europe. >> You had the gun in your hand. >> I had the gun in my hand. Yeah. >> Is it possible that when you were flaring it, you know, when you muzzle somebody, when you when you >> It's possible. And even with and and even with a stupid comment, all you got to be doing is waving a gun and saying, "I ought to >> Well, you ought to what? >> I ought to throw it out the window or I ought to kill you. I You know what I mean? >> Lisa, that happened me swinging it around or whatever. Or when I took it to smash it, I can't remember if I had it by the barrel. I think I had it by the barrel. I slammed it, broke the stock off, bent the barrel on it, you know, just a little bit. >> And during those whole waving around waved and heard, >> this is Yes. This is all going all happened. >> And out of anger, you may have said something stupid like, "I'm going to hurt myself." Yeah. >> Or I'm going to kill you or something like that. >> I just threatened to kill them. >> I just want to touch on that. Okay. this comment about Vicki. The next time I do it, you're never gonna find me. Okay, let let's just concentrate on that that comment. Okay, >> let's take your comment and I think we we tried to raise this in court. I think Wendy was trying to to tell you that we, you know, you can't spend a lot of time on certain things, but the fact that you validated, you confirmed I was getting mouthy and I was going to blow my head off. >> Mhm. >> How much did you mean that? >> I don't know. >> Probably I I don't think I'd have the balls to do it. >> Okay. >> I don't think I would. >> Okay. Let's take Vicki's statement. >> Yeah. >> Because I think some some I think there's a little unfairness. I think you can meet me halfway. I think there's a given circumstances. I think there's some unfairness where people are attributing that statement who everyone didn't hear >> but it got spread like wild. Okay. Couldn't you agree Vicki had issues? You know that better than >> I know it. I know it. And at times she was very regretful about some of her choices. >> No, I'm sure she was. >> She didn't want to leave her children. >> I'm sure she was. I don't think >> she loved those kids. >> She did not want to check out on Wes. There was a bond between those two. >> Oh, I know that. >> And you could tell me more. >> There that is. They don't have to be around. I can read words and it's palpable to me. It I can feel it. >> Mhm. >> All I'm saying is if Jim says those words and he doesn't have the guts and he doesn't do it, let's give Vicki the same respect and say, "Ah, yeah, she said it. Did she really mean it?" Well, I don't know. The only What I want to say now is offer her just a little bit. >> If you knew that she had attempted suicide two or three times before, you said this. >> Were they Were they all attempts? >> Yes. I I know definitely have at the home was >> That's not what you justified to today. What? >> That's not what you testified to today. You testified to one suicide attempt. Correct. You were asked several times. >> Yeah. One that I know of. >> And I And I I assume the second one that I took her into the hospital or the ambulance took her in again. >> Well, let's give her the benefit of the doubt. >> So I I thought that >> was I said we didn't know. I thought it might have been. >> That's not three or four >> because I found it that way. That's my point. I found it that way. That's not three or four. >> That's not three or four, Jim. >> Okay, that's two. I know she attempted it with her ex-husband. >> How do you know that? >> She told me herself. >> What did she tell you? >> That she ended up in Brown County because she attempted to commit suicide. >> How did she do that? >> I don't know. She wouldn't didn't say. >> Did you ever see proof of it? >> No, I never saw proof of it, but I'm just going by what she told me. I'll tell you something else. >> Did she ever tell you that to make you fearful? to draw you closer cuz cuz here I'll tell you what. >> I've looked at some of the medical records >> and I've I've read some of her words. There were times in Vickiy's there were times in Vickiy's life that there were things going on that made it hard for her to deal with. Mhm. >> Maybe it's Jim being sweet on this lady at the bar. Maybe it's Jim having an affair. Maybe it's the kids, you know, going on with their life and now she doesn't feel like the mother that she, you know, loves to be. And have you ever heard of someone just wanting attention or or you you say something really severe to draw you back in? I don't want I don't want Jim messing around with some other woman. I want his attention. So maybe if I say, "God damn, you want me to kill myself in a in a warped weird way?" >> I don't know. I don't know. >> She's been calling you back to say, "Jim, I'm here, baby." >> I I don't know. I'm not >> Can you come back to me? >> Did you ever Did you ever think that >> she not in that way? >> But she flared up at times when there was major things going on with your drinking, with your lying, with your staying out too late. I never lied to her. >> Never lied to me. >> Well, you don't consider being unfaithful to her. Not a lie. >> Well, I told her about it. She found out about it. I admitted it. I told her it happened. >> Still, >> I suppose, but she had to hurt you. You didn't come home and come home. >> Hey, guess what? I You know what I mean? >> No. >> So, but that that is that is a huge knock in the teeth, man. >> I mean, that's hard to cope and deal with. I know it is because that's what happened with me in my first flight. I that >> I get it. >> Did me. >> So, as much as it is for you, it was for her. >> I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was. >> You know what I mean? >> So, I I'm just, >> you know, she's she's really getting a bad rap here. And I I just want to be fair to her. >> I'm not trying to give her a bad rap. I'm just >> But you hear what I'm saying? >> Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't make any difference. You get it. Wouldn't probably look anyway. But when she was in the hospital, I don't remember was it the recovery surgery or the surgery? Were they She called 911. Okay. >> And said she I think she had changed her clothes. >> No. No. Changed. She changed personalities. >> She called 911 and she was whispering to me on the phone. Jeff, I I I called 911, but they hung up. The kids The kids are in a wall. They're they're hiding the kids in the wall. I'm at work talking to her on the phone and she's telling me the kids are in the wall locked up. >> We heard that story, Jim. We need to talk about what's not accurate. We've already heard that story several times. >> Yeah. From me. >> From you. >> All right. I'm sure there would have been a record of a 911 call. >> We're past that. That's fine. >> Well, I'm just telling you that would would happen. >> I don't need to hear what you've told us. >> Do you really believe in the in the bottom of your heart and soul that she had multiple personalities? >> Yes, I do. 100% because I >> a good acting job. >> No, no, no, no. I talked to her when she would change. >> Well, I get that. But one would be a young one. >> Yeah. >> And she's called me big daddy Jim. >> The next one is going to be a sex addict. The next next story, Jim. I don't want to hear the same story as you know. >> Well, it was that's what she was. >> I apologize. >> And one was a devil. >> Jay's right. You're right. And she would make the noise or >> she Yeah. sounded like a like a >> and she would and her psychiatrist didn't believe it until >> he did it in his office. I can tell the story. I've heard. >> All right. Well, you asked and I'm telling you. >> I asked if she had multiple personalities and I told >> I asked. >> She did. Let's get back to >> give me another domestic situation that you lied about on the stand. I can't think about nothing. Not with Vicki. >> Not with anybody. >> Not with Not with Dar. >> Are you sure? >> Trying to think. I know. I was really wild when I found out she was running around, >> you know. And I I put up with it. I found letters that she had written to guys. >> Sure. >> Tough. Yes. And I questioned her about it. And then she was running with another girl, too. And she smashed the car up one night. Drove off a dead end road about 3:00 in the morning. Didn't get hurt. Didn't smash the car real bad. Almost stopped. And I blew up. I said, "Jesus Christ, lady, you're going to kill yourself or kill somebody else." Yet, when I get in that truck to leave, a lot of times she'd get in the car and be gone. It's that simple. She'd be gone. She even took the kids with her one time when they were young and went to a campground with somebody. Met them at a campground. I don't know where. I know that. So you remember good details about stuff that long ago. >> Sometimes not. >> Same with me. Today when we got closer, let's take April 25th, April 26. There were really there were things that we know you lived and I believe you have better recall and for whatever reason you want it to be a moving target and you told us stuff that it it's not even clo these this stuff is more consistent than what you said today Jim you know what I mean >> yeah I >> I don't remember what I said to you guys in all our interviews >> I get So you could tell me that it's incon or not consistent, whatever. >> If you tell the truth, you don't have to have memory, >> right? >> No, you should have a good memory. But but listen to my statement. If you tell the truth, >> you don't have to have a good memory. >> Well, yes, you have to have a good memory to be able to tell the truth. If you can't remember it, you can't tell the truth. Am I right? >> Yeah. But but there's big chunks. There are big chunks that you would just know >> of some things. Yes. >> Because let's just take Wes. Okay. >> Right. >> On the on the on the during the very early morning hours of the 26th. >> Yeah. >> Okay. The morning of >> Yeah. >> Okay. Wes in the driveway. You in the driveway. Him in front, you in front. Come on. I'm telling >> Wes isn't lying. I'm telling the truth. >> Okay. All right. You say Wes isn't lying. >> Say I'm lying. Okay. I was coming in the driveway. No, he was coming in the driveway when I was going out. >> Right. You tell me what what what is I was parked in the yard when he drove in with his truck and I can't remember if it was when I was getting ready to leave to look for her or had looked for or asked him I know I asked him to come and help and he said I don't have any gas in the truck. >> Yep. >> I said okay well that's very consistent. If mom calls if listen on the phone you know I I don't know how calls you on your phone. He had his own phone. I said, "Call me. Let me know." And I did ride around out there. I can't remember where all I went. I took you guys. I may have even missed some roads. >> And as far Maybe you did. >> As far as that shell station. Hey, I may have went around the backside and came up. I don't remember. Jim, Jim, that day you were emphatic about where you were when you arrived at that station. >> We proved you wrong. >> Yes, >> you did. >> Just bear with me. Don't Don't get Don't get all worked up on me, >> okay? I proved you we proved you wrong. >> Okay. You don't. It doesn't feel good to be proved wrong when you're in your seat when everything is going on. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yep. >> That didn't happen, Jim. >> You know what I'm saying? >> What didn't happen? >> You weren't at that station. >> I swear I Well, >> I went by the station and and didn't see anybody or anything. >> Well, you can see a certain amount of road with the cameras, though. I you where to god I was by there by that station. >> It It didn't happen, Joe. That that did that didn't happen cuz cuz video doesn't lie, Jim. That's all I'm saying. Okay. I swear to God I was down that road. I swear to God I was >> and I was by the casino one. >> You weren't in front of that station. I probably if you >> when when you drove in when you drove in and you said you were right there, I stopped and I looked in. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> You weren't there. >> Okay. I wasn't there, but I was around there that day. I was running like a chicken with [ __ ] chopped off looking. >> Why in the world would you drive? You were driving. You were behind the wheel. Why would you drive yourself into that station? Why would you drive around the pump? Why would you drive by the front of the gas station? Why would you tell us that you looked in that window when >> I thought that's what I did? I thought that's what I did in my mind. I did that. But that detail that but that's that's what I'm talking about is bear with me Jim. Okay. I know, I know. But that's a big component thing when you can when you can remember a conversation with Dar like many many many years ago and we're I mean we're only talking six years. you can kind of remember I I'll give you you can't remember every single turn and you know but you remember the big chunks of the areas that you were and I'm just saying you weren't there and you told us you were >> I couldn't you've lied a whole bunch you you know you lied a bunch and I lied >> well no no I don't want you to say that I I only want you to tell me the truth I thought that I was there I thought I was that's why I said I was there. >> You You let me know, Jay. And I and I will cut to the chase with Mr. Proco Public. >> I I could have swore that I was there, Jay. >> I get it. >> Honest to God, I could have swore I went to >> But you weren't. >> But I wasn't. >> You weren't. >> I wasn't. But I could have swore I did. >> But you weren't. >> I was apparently. >> The video is very >> You prove that I wasn't there. So I was wrong mistaken saying I drove through there and I thought I did. >> Okay. >> I know I was in that area. >> What else about today that you were asked that you that just give me a big chunk thing that you can remember that you lied about? Did anything anything that you can kind of recall that >> you don't remember? Anything else? Not that I can think of. >> Well, what's that? Oh, >> go ahead. >> You going to ask about the time in the morning? Yeah. >> And because I that's like I said, I don't remember what time I woke up. Bubba, I know what time I got up when I went looking for it. I don't remember. >> Okay, that's okay. Let Let me Let me just bring a kind of a an overarching big one. The bed. Oh, for a long time this all all said >> you were in the bed. >> I was in bed. >> We have there is very very very very strong proof that I didn't sleep in bed. >> Right. Okay. Now I have to believe Jim that you can remember if you were in the chair all night or you were on the bed. Well, you were just telling us the story so we go away. >> Just go a story about the shell station. >> I You know what I mean? >> Jay, I know what you're saying. >> You that that you can remember. I that I I just respectfully I have to say you got to tell me. >> I This is your time where we can ship on some stuff. >> Okay. I All right. I wasn't in bed. I'll tell you that. Okay. I didn't sleep in bed. I slept on the chair. >> Why do I? Cuz I thought I was in bed. I wasn't in bed. >> Well, then that's down the line. If you thought you >> Don't tell me what I I I don't want to hear just anything. I want >> When you asked me, I said I went to bed. >> I I get it. >> In my No, I said I went to bed. >> What did you testify? You testified you were in the bed. >> Don't do the moving target thing. >> No, I'm not doing the moving target thing. I said I went to bed. I was in bed. >> In your bed? In the bedroom where there's a TV and you were under the covers. That's what you testified to. I don't know if I was under I've never said I was under the covers. >> Okay. Okay. I did. >> So, here's what I'm going to tell you, Jim. >> It's not a lie. If you say something when you thought it was the thing and you happen to be wrong, I'm telling you, >> you knew you weren't at that gas station. You knew you weren't in that bed and for some reason you lied. That's okay. >> I did not know I wasn't at that gas station. In my mind, I when you asked me about it, I didn't ask you. You drove me there. >> Yeah, but you asked to show you the route. >> Yeah. >> And then in my mind, I'm trying to remember where all I went. >> Yeah. So, you said, "I'm not sure about this road. I'm not sure." Oh, but I remember driving past this storefront and looking in the back, but you said the video showed nothing. >> That's what I said. Yeah. >> Okay. I got to take your word for it that I didn't drive through there. So, I lied about that. I'm sorry I lied. >> It's not a lie if that's what you thought was in your mind. Uh well, what is it? I I tell it. >> I'm telling you you lied. You're telling me something else. >> Well, you're telling me I lied, so I'll agree with you. I lied. >> Well, don't No, I don't want you agreeing with him or I if that's not the truth. I I want you to tell me what the truth is. And I'm I'm just I'm trying to give you some role. I know you're trying to get to get some credibility back. >> I understand that >> because I think the judge wants to know that. I think Wendy wants to know that. I and and that you you got to be honest about the little stuff before you can be honest about the big stuff. The big reason we're here. >> I know. I know. I understand. >> The big reason. I mean, you're facing something really, really serious. I know. How much do you want to How much do you want to help yourself out? >> I want to help myself, but I want to help Kathy way more. Well, >> let me get to that part. Well, >> way more. What? What? What do you What do you want to do for her? >> I'm telling the truth. Cuz she told the lies just like you told >> and I covered up for her >> and she says she covered for you because you both were >> Yep. >> You were both complicit with that. >> Yep. >> And you I mean you can't change that. You can't erase that. You can't make that go away. Can't make it go away. >> But the truth was what I told you now. And if if and if she is truly not involved in anything other than >> the cover up the all she was involved in, >> you need to tell us what the heck happened so that we can clear her and get her. >> Honest to God, Jay, she had nothing to do with it. >> But how do I know that? You have to You got to explain. >> I don't know how I can explain some stuff so that we can prove that. Show that. Explain what? Show me what? Vickiy's dead. Yes. She's not here. I She's not here. I don't know. She's dead. She's I don't You >> mind if I explain to Jim about Kathy? >> I don't. >> Just one moment cuz Jay, I don't If I say she's dead, I then they're going to say, "Well, he he did it. He knows she's dead." I do this for a living. There are other statements that you have made to other people where they say uh he told us she's dead just by the we and and it and and it's it's family members, it's searchers, it's all sorts of other people that have taken your words and they're like, "Uh, that's not good." Uh, so I very well because of the suicide attempt I know you're going to say you're going over the same thing because of the suicide attempts and everything else and what she said that day. I know it was years ago and then she she was seemed to be in a very good mood that day. >> Yeah. >> But before that for a while she was so far down in the goddamn belt you couldn't even see. She was she was telling the doctor all about it and she was dragging you through the mud in those medical records because >> that's the way she felt. That's what she perceived. So the alcohol, the drugs, the or I'm sorry, drugs. I miss the alcohol, the lies, the the carousing around that all mattered to her. that was affecting her and and some of your actions in the marital unit was causing some of her issues and problems was okay. So it it it did and it it and I think that in a reverse way came full circle and became some of your issues and problems too. 100%. I know she's dead because this is what I do for a living. And I have checked a whole bunch of things to show and prove she's dead. Okay? Just by some really really simple things that when people are alive, they leave let's call them some markers. They leave markers in life, okay? that life is going on because of their communications, because of where they go, what they do. Um, so just please respect that we know she's got Okay. >> Okay. I'll take your word for it or respect it or whatever. >> So it it seems like you care for Kathy, right? >> Yes, I do very much. >> You don't want to see anything bad happen to Kathy? >> No, I don't. You don't want her to see her away from from >> No, her family. Her animals. >> Her animals. Her family. Her daughter and her son. Well, her son talks to her. Yeah. >> We know that. At least there's >> I mean, you even said I got to clear her. >> Yes. >> When we sat down, you said, "I got nothing to lose." When we sat down, >> you're right. You're right. Did the officers tell you you were under arrest for firstdegree sexual homicide when they brought you here? >> Yep. Yeah. >> Here's what I'm going to tell you. >> You're under arrest first-degree homicide. >> Here's what I'm going to tell you, gentlemen. We work with the prosecutor's office very, very closely. The prosecutor's office takes into consideration many, many different things. That includes Kathy and that includes you. As far as Kathy is concerned, she lied. She lied in a homicide investigation. She lied in a homicide investigation. Then she lied under oath. Potential exposure of that is prison. Significant time behind bars. But really, we're here at the end of the day just to recover Vicki. >> Yeah. We don't we don't want her in trouble. I I can have significant communication with the prosecutor's office so they can look at consideration about really what is the objective here and that's really recovering Vicki for the family because this pain has got to [ __ ] stop. It is going to eat you alive and it's going to eat the family alive and everyone. It's just gonna keep festering. And I guarantee you that the prosecutor can really take a good hard look at consideration of what to do with Kathy. But you are her life and savior right now. You're the one that holds the key cuz we're done and we don't have Vickiy's body. There's not much consideration here. I am willing. Listen to me. There's other cases that I'm aware of, that I've read about, that I've spoken with detectives and know about that even the individuals that are in your seat have received significant consideration from the prosecution and from the court and have been able to salvage something in their life and in their dignity and in the family by being truthful and honest. Now, if you want her to continue to take the ride for this this she will take a full ride. If you dig your heels in, if you want to be a good man and you want to assist her and you wanna What did you put on here? And you want to clear her, you're gonna take you, we're gonna go and we're going to jump in the [ __ ] car and we're just going to take a friendly ride and it's okay. And we'll drive as long as it as we have to and you're just going to point and if you want to give us a story, you can give us a story. But this is your [ __ ] chance because she's gonna take a full ride. You hold the key. I know. I hold a key. And I'm telling you, Roman, I don't know where she is. >> Then you guess what? I don't know. If you don't jump in the car with us and show us, I have nothing to give to the prosecutor. I can't get in the car and point someplace and say she's there. I can't do it. I don't know where she is. >> I'll have to tell Kathy. You'll >> have to tell her because I don't know where she is. Roman, as much as I want to help her, I cannot go and point a place and say, "There she is." I don't know. Do you can Let me ask this. >> Don't get mad at me. I I have to ask tough questions, right? >> Yes. >> Is Kathy I'm sorry. Is Vicki in a way where she isn't there? Where she she can't be there? She's never to be had because of whatever happened. >> I don't know. I don't know where she is. >> Okay. >> If I knew right now, I would tell you. >> I want you to listen. You see how I lowered my voice? >> All right. >> We're going to both three. We're going to go over our voice and we're going to talk like [ __ ] men now. Right. >> All right. >> Here's what here's what we're going to do, Jim. It's just these four walls and these three [ __ ] men. Right. >> Got >> right. And there are a thousand different ways how this could have played out, but it [ __ ] played out. >> Your your hands your hands >> put Vickiy's body. >> Put her lifeless body. >> No, you can stay right here >> in a place. In a place. Listen, I'm not mad at you. It's okay. It's been [ __ ] 6 years. I don't care. You'd be mad at me. I never met her. I don't know. >> I know you. >> Bring some peace. Bring some peace. >> If I could bring peace to the family, I would. I don't think >> and bring peace to me. I would >> I don't think that's true, Jim. >> Well, >> but you can't bring peace when you're lying. >> I'm not lying about where she is. I mean, God, >> you lied to the in know where she is. >> You lied on the stand today. >> I lied on I I did that. I'll admit that. But I do not know where she is. So, help me God. >> She doesn't go poof. I know she You were the last one to see her. You were the last one with her. You were the last one to hear her. >> I don't know. I don't If I knew, I'd tell you right now. >> Oh [ __ ] >> I tell you right now, Kathy, you you you don't want to be caught. You didn't want to be caught today on the stand >> and you lied. >> And you lied. >> All right. You don't want to be caught. I'll admit I killed her. I killed her. There. I killed her. Kathy had nothing to do. Tell me what you did. >> I don't know. I don't know where she is. I I >> Tell me how you killed her. No, >> I don't know how I killed her. Tell me how you killed >> I didn't. So I can't tell you. >> Did you I can't tell you. I don't know. >> Well, did you choke her then? >> No, I didn't choke her. I don't know where she is. >> Was she alive when she got under your truck? >> She never got in the truck with me. >> Did you assist her with something? >> No, I didn't assist her with anything. >> Did she ask you to do something? >> No, she didn't ask me to do anything to her or for her. >> I don't know where she is. an accident. >> No, I honest God I did not hurt that woman that day. I did not do anything. >> Don't call her that woman. >> That woman. Okay. I'm sorry. I did not >> I did not hurt my wife that day. I did nothing to her. >> Nothing that night. >> That you're under arrest for killing your wife. >> I know I am. >> So, let's fix it. >> I can't fix it because you know what? >> We can't change what happened. What did you say once? I think you said we can't change what happened. All you can do is carve a little something for yourself in the future. >> That wasn't me. I did never said that. >> I think I proved you wrong on the on the stand today. I have a recording of you saying that. >> Yes, you did. >> I have a recording of you saying what I just said you said. So, here's what I'm going to tell you, Jim. >> Here's what I'm going to tell you. We're past that. >> I know we're past that. And and Bowman, I'm telling you right now, I know I lied to you before. I lied to Jay before. And I'm swearing to God right now. >> But but I know you're going to say you swear to God before you lied. >> But I do not know where she is. If I knew, I would tell you right now. I do not know. >> I know you don't believe me. Well, then that's the best I can do is tell you I don't know because I don't know. >> So, what do you see as a future for yourself now? >> I I'm 74 years old. I don't give a damn. And >> you don't give a damn about Kathy. >> Yes, I do. And I told you if I could tell you where she is, I would. So, you don't give a damn. What do you think is going to happen then to you? >> Probably go to prison till I die. >> Why would you go to Why would you want to do that? >> I don't want to go to prison. And if I could show you where she is, you you haven't even been arrested ever, have you? >> Nope. Never been arrested. >> You're ready to go to prison for the rest of your life is >> So, you never I don't know how else I can prove I didn't do anything to her, that I didn't hurt her, that I didn't do what you are saying I did. That's not true. You know what I mean? That that >> I told you that morning, whatever time it was I woke up. >> None of that [ __ ] matches up. I don't want to hear it again. >> I know you don't want to hear it >> because none of it matches up to the facts, to the surveillance video, to the phone records, to the time >> records. >> I mean, your phone records, her phone records, everyone's phone records. What did you you you think you should just cuz you shut off your phone there's no [ __ ] record? Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? >> No, I didn't shut no phone off. >> You know what? It's 2013. I know >> you are on camera every 15 minutes probably, not more. >> You told me to keep my voice down. I'm trying now. You're raising yours. >> You know, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right, Jim. Listen, this is this is probably what you do and say in this room is probably the most important thing you're going to do. >> Especially when you told me about Katney >> your entire life and and >> and I'm telling you I am telling you that you need to stop and take a breath. >> I took a deep breath. I'm going to take another deep breath. I'm not going to raise my voice and I'm going to tell you again. Roman, I do not want you again. I just want you to tell me where she is. And if you don't want to tell me where she's at, just point. >> I don't know. I do not know. I do not know. I do not know where she is. >> That's not the truth, J. >> Yes, it is the truth. That is the damn truth. Roman, for once, I am telling you the >> For once. So, this is as much as the truth as what you told Jay and I for years about these other things. And this is as much as the truth as what you told me% today. >> 90% of what I told >> was true was true >> the going for a ride and stuck taking looking for >> what what time in what happened that morning exactly in what order when Wes came home or did >> Yeah. Wes came home after you were done disposing of her period. Period. Did she want to go somewhere? >> No, she didn't want to go anywhere. She never sitting up. She I asked her if she wanted to come to town, go to town after we come back from the doctor. She said no. >> And there was no argument that night. >> No argument at all. None. Went to Super, got the chicken, came back home. We ate, sat and watched TV for a little while. She was punching in the kitchen or doing something. I said, I'm going to go lay down. I I don't I think I crawl in the chair. I thought I crawled in bed. I may not crawl in bed. I don't know. I'm So sometimes I go to bed in the bed. Sometimes I'd lay down on the couch and fall asleep there and I'd wake up. She wouldn't never wake me up if I did fall asleep. >> I can I can fill in the next three sentences because you've said them over and over >> and over again. >> So So stop with the [ __ ] that you've said already. >> That's [ __ ] >> Okay. If you say it's [ __ ] it's [ __ ] >> I think I have some credibility to say it's [ __ ] Do I not? Do you not agree that I can call >> I lied to you before I lied. So you could kill me. >> Yeah. So you don't have to in all due respect, >> you don't have to believe anything I tell you, Ro. >> I know. And I'm So I'm giving you an opportunity. Listen, you don't have to like me and I don't have to like you, but we are stuck in this together. And what I'm telling you is I'm giving you an opportunity to salvage things. >> I know you are. And if I could salvage something, I would salvage it. I do not know where she is. There was enough enough information and enough proof to hold John Doe hearing proceedings. >> I know >> you have to have enough >> proof >> information to show the court that Yes. >> You know, >> so it's it's not like, you know, we're taking a blind stab here or >> um people just don't disappear. I don't know what else I can prove to you, Ed. I don't know where >> I'm not lying. Roman, how about this? Why don't you think about this? Do you Would you agree? Yes or no? Do you agree that if a jury of your peers listened to the whole story that we all know that's in these binders over those six years? Do you think if a jury of your peers report and they just look at the dang [ __ ] picture we just present and they look at the whole thing, right? >> Yeah. >> Do you think it's more likely than not that you they they would think whether it's true or not that they would think you killed your wife? >> I don't know. >> I know. I want you to take a breath and stop. I I >> I hear you telling me that you kill her. >> Some Some may believe it and some may not. Do you think more people than not would believe you killed your wife? >> I don't know. I I >> take a stab at it. >> Taking a wild guess. Yeah. If I say that. >> Yeah. >> Then you'll say, "Yeah, he did it." No, I don't know. >> No, I They probably >> I already told you. I think you did it. Actually, I told you I know you did it. Right. Right. So, now we're talking about these other people that we don't even know. >> I don't I I >> I don't know. Depends what kind of jury it is. Depends what they're told. Depends what comes out in the court in the trial. This this will come out. All this >> good is involved. >> Don't now you're really >> Yeah. Well, the problem is is it's going to it's going to touch >> not involved at all. >> Well, some people person to you, Jim. >> You you may find you may find that this criminal investigation starts expanding like a >> Well, let it expand. But I don't know where she is. >> Is Wall-E involved? >> No, he is not involved. No way in hell is my son involved in this. >> If he thought I did something to her, he would never talk to me again. >> So that's frightening you. >> He talks to me. He doesn't even think I did it. I didn't do it. Well, what what's SO FUNNY? HE DOESN'T think I did anything to her. I I I I really have u I really have a lot of pity on you, Jim. >> No, you don't. >> I do. >> You got You got your man. You think >> I I got my man. >> Yeah. >> And that's the truth. And I think >> You think you did? >> And I think that you worked real hard all your life. And I think that >> people said you were a hard worker, John. And I think that if we actually take a step back, I think that maybe if we can have an adult conversation and like I said, we lower our voices and really start talking about that, you know what, unfortunately, unfortunately, Vicki was had some mental health issues. Unfortunately, there were things that were that were problematic, um, that were a burden. And you know, those are all things before you interrupt me because I already see it coming, Jim. Those are all things those are all things that are that are explanations. Those are all things that are um things that are taken into consideration because you know let's let's put the [ __ ] aside. You and I both know that killing your wife is not the right thing to do. However, however, it's not really that black and white in life. It really isn't. That there are always, you know, reasons and explanations. And what happens is if you don't provide those, you end up looking like a monster. As opposed to somebody that I actually after 6 years have learned to know as a good, hardworking man that found himself in really an untenable, awful situation. And you you thought, listen, I only have like you just said, I'm 74 [ __ ] years old. I only got this on this earth. And you know what? That's that's life. That's not the black and white that some people think life is. You know, it's like when a horse breaks its leg or whatever, you got to put it down, you know? I mean, >> if you want any any potential life with Kathy, Jim, >> well, if you want her to to to have some sort of understand what you're saying, guys, and believe me, if I knew what happened to her and where she is, I would tell you >> just to save Kathy, not to save my ass, cuz I don't care about my ass. >> Yeah, I don't I believe that. I think you're done. I think you, like you said, you got nothing to lose. >> And if I knew where she was. Yeah, you got nothing to lose. >> And what happened to her? >> No, you got nothing to lose, Joe. >> I would tell you. I I I I'd have no reason not to tell you cuz I'm going to go to jail anyway. >> Why would you go to jail if you didn't do it? >> I didn't do it. >> Well, the people are going to believe you then, right? >> I hope they do. >> I think you're going to go to jail because you don't think the people are going to believe you. >> Well, maybe they will and maybe they won't. I'll take my chances, I guess, with a jury. >> That's a big gamble, though. >> Well, it's a big gamble >> with all the lies and inconsistencies videos. >> I know. And I'll guarantee you if somebody comes and offers me a plea deal, I won't take it because I will not plead guilty to something I did not do. Okay? I will not plead guilty to something I did not do. And I don't know where she is. >> You have no interest in providing any kind of peace to the family, do you? >> Yes. I wish I could provide peace to the family. Roman, I don't know where she >> years off her life, you know. >> I don't know where she is. Roman, >> you you're taking years off her. >> Roman, look at me. I don't know where she is. >> Jim, I don't believe you. >> I know you don't believe me. I'm telling you. >> 100% I don't believe you. >> She didn't have any means. She doesn't have transportation. She doesn't have money. She physically can't do it. She doesn't know where she went. >> I don't know where she is. >> There were no phone calls. There was no other friends. There was no other family members. You know what I mean? it. When you take all of those things away, you know, I know what you're sayingual >> me. >> And I did not do anything to her. I did not hurt her. >> This lie is just as laughable as when you said, >> "Well, then I know you're never going no matter what. If she come walking through the damn door lying, you say she's dead just to get me." >> Yes, you would. I did not do nothing to that woman. I did not hurt her. And if I did, I'd tell you right now to save Kathy and I'd show you where she is if I knew it. I do not know where she is. >> Let's get in my car so you can do that. >> Pardon? >> Let's get in my car so you can show me. >> You can get in the car and ride me around all over. I won't be able to show you anything cuz I don't know where she is and I don't know what happened to her. I can't show you where she is if I don't know where she is. I can't tell you what happened to her. If I don't know what happened to her and I would if I could if I knew where and what I would tell you to save her right now. I would tell you to save her. >> Well, you could have told me your lies. >> I don't care to this. >> I don't care about me anymore. I care about her. >> You don't care about you though, Jim. >> I I don't care about me anymore. >> Well, why? >> Because I just don't I I live my life. As far as I'm concerned, I live my life. I'm surprised. >> But you don't you got a good life. You don't know how much longer you got. You >> That's right. You don't have any health issues. You don't have any medication. You like to drink some beer. I mean, >> as far as I'm concerned, I live my life peace. Live your retirement. >> Raised a couple kids, had some fun, had some parties, 74 years old. It's all downhill from now. That's the way I look at life. I'm sorry. You may think I'm crazy, but that's the way I look at life. If I drop dead tomorrow, I'll be happy. >> You've been saying that for years. >> Well, I It's the truth. >> You've been threatening suicide for years. When you get angry, you call people and you threaten suicide. >> I never called anybody and said I was going to kill myself. >> No. Maybe I should play you a recording because we've been to who? >> What we showed today in court is a small sliver of the evidence and information that we have. You know, I I admit there's times I thought about doing myself in. >> Yeah, but you called people and you sped off about killing yourself. >> You know, I thought about it. Believe me. >> Yeah, I know. You told us. I mean, you confirmed that. >> And and before this all happened even. >> Yeah. I mean, you're saying it now. You You said it before. >> But people say dumb things. >> Yeah. Say dumb things. Exactly. And I'm not saying a dumb thing when I tell you I don't know where she is and I do not know what happened to her. I don't to save Kathy. I would do anything. >> Well, you wouldn't have allowed this lie to No, I know we wouldn't. >> And you guys drove here together today, right? >> Yes, we did. >> And it was a three-hour ride, right? >> Yes. >> Did you guys discuss maybe we shouldn't [ __ ] lie on the stands? >> We didn't talk about it at all. >> Well, maybe you should have talked about it. Did you know the subpoena was coming before you got it? >> No. >> You didn't anticipate getting a subpoena when you heard about other people against me? No. You didn't think that the court would want to talk? >> I didn't. >> You didn't anticipate that? That's your >> Yeah. I thought we said something. They'll probably come to >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure you did. I have a recording of it. >> You figured that. And then And then when when that happened, when you anticipated it, you didn't talk to Kathy and say, "Listen, oh man, if they [ __ ] call us, we better cut this guy out cuz I don't want this to continue." So, so, so obviously you we didn't really discuss anything coming over here. >> No. >> Well, >> we didn't had no reason to. >> But, but your lie came up. >> Yes. >> Quite a bit. >> We said make sure we tell the same story about how we met >> that we didn't. Yeah. >> When and when was the last time you said that? >> Maybe coming over here. I don't know. >> Yeah. >> I I I don't know if we said it. You mentioned it coming over here or not. I don't know. >> That makes sense. And but I'm telling you >> I'm telling you, Roman, we can get in a car and ride around all you want. >> Yeah. Well, I don't >> And I cannot >> I don't want to I don't want to waste everyone's time if you're just going to drive me around Shell gas stations where you were. >> I'm not going to drive you. I wouldn't drive. You drive wherever you want. >> No, I >> And I cannot point out where she would be >> because I do not know where she is. When Kathy talked to you about a tool box. >> Tool box. >> A tool box in the back of your truck. >> Oh, tell us about that. >> Back of which truck? >> Well, I don't know. She had talked about buying one for my black truck, my my pickup, but I don't think she ever said much about the toolbox on the back of my work truck. That was a toolbox, small toolbox and butane combination. I don't remember saying well off the top of my head anything about it. >> Jim, what would happen to a body if you put it in those sludge ponds where you worked? >> I don't know. You probably never find it. >> Only uh I wasn't working at sludge ponds. >> I know. But if you put a body in there, >> I had access but it wouldn't disappear. >> Oh, but you said you'd never find it. Yeah, you probably would. I don't know. >> Well, you said you wouldn't find it. Why did you say that? >> Because I've seen what happened to deer when they run into the deer. Tell me why. >> They a lot of times they sit on top and finally rot die on top >> and then they'll stay there. They they won't >> you'll see them. And as you put more sludge, they'll float away or go somewhere. >> It's not liquid like people think. It's solid, >> right? We walked on it. >> Oh, okay. You know, I mean, it's solid. >> Mhm. Yeah. So, what you said, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you didn't work there, but you had access to it >> and that if a body was to go in there, you'd never find it cuz you seen what happens to the deer when they run. >> That's what you said, RIGHT? >> YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I SAID. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE a brain no brain surgeon to figure that out. >> I'm not one of them. >> You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out, Roman. >> No, I'm just a cop, my friend. I'm just a cop. >> No. >> Right. >> You don't even have to be a cop to figure that out. the average lay person could walk up. >> I mean, you got access to a truck, you got access to heavy equipment. Uh, you and Wall-E are close. I mean, there are, you know what I mean? >> Up and down the highway, sledge pond. I mean, from from let's say Wes left at 8:00 p.m., right? I don't know what time he left. >> 8 to 4. >> I don't know what time he left. >> 8 Let's just say 8 to 4, >> right? >> Yeah. Okay. >> He wasn't there, right? >> What? >> He wasn't at your house overnight from >> He wasn't there disappeared. >> I don't know what time he left. >> He was How about this? He wasn't there when Mickey disappeared. >> As far as I know, no. He He went to a friend's house. We have him. >> Yeah, he went all over the place. >> He went to a friend's house or something. He was very dope and all this. goes right to his friend's house and >> he wasn't there when the kid disappeared. >> And what time he left? I don't >> Who was there when the kid disappeared? >> There was a whole me there was a whole 8 hours. >> Okay. If you're saying he left at 8:00, then there was 8 hours plus or minus, right? I'm I'm affording you I'm I'm affording myself the same thing I did for you. I mean, you say five or six weeks plus. You know what I mean? I mean that that's a long time, Jim, to be alone in a house and she's gone. Like gone. Dead gone. Jim, do you think >> you know what I mean? >> Do you think that Do you think the police can prove that you killed your wife without us finding Vicki? >> No. >> You don't think we can prove it? Yeah, I think you you could try and prove it, but I didn't do it. >> No, no, no. That's not my question. >> That's not the question. What >> do you think? Listen, do you think the police can prove you killed your wife if we don't have a key body? I've heard people being convicted without finding the body, so I assume yes. >> Right. Heard about it on TV. I mean, you hear about it. I assume yes. >> Well, the answer is yes. You're right. We can prove you killed. You You can probably poo. >> So the only thing So the only thing I want is her body. That's >> Roman. If I could [ __ ] her body, I'd give it to you. I don't know where it is. >> Oh, that's colorful. You want to [ __ ] your wife's body? >> Oh, you colorful. >> We started Hold on. We started with that woman. >> Now you're going to [ __ ] her [ __ ] body, huh? That's the route you're going to go. This is your wife that you love. >> That is >> This is your wife that you love for 24 years. >> This isn't That isn't the way I met. one that was disabled because she had mental health issues. >> Okay. I Okay, I said it. I said it. >> Yeah, you can't take it back. >> I can't take it back. >> And what you did, you can't take back. >> I didn't do anything to her and I don't know where she is. >> You were with her alone for >> I was alone with her hours. >> For I don't know how many hours. >> And you would time left. >> I mean, let's be really conservative. 6 hours then. 6 to 8 hours. I Okay. I I don't know. I was alone with her. >> And you were the last to see her alive. >> I was the last to see her. Last to hear her. >> You were the last to see her alive. >> Well, Wes might Wes would have been. >> No, you said he wasn't. >> Oh, no. He's smoking dope at his buddy's house. >> Okay. Yeah, he wasn't. >> So, you were the last to see her alive, right? >> I was the last and hear her. >> No, I wasn't the last to see her alive. I went No, now listen. Just let me explain. Yeah, technically I was the last, I suppose, but I was sleeping and Wes was still home. So Wes would have been the last one to see her alive. >> No, you've said many times that Wes left to his friend before you went to bed. >> No, he didn't. No, no, no, no. Ask West. He was No, >> I didn't. He said he left and you were left alone with your wife. >> And you said that. And I'll play it for you. >> I was sleeping. >> He leaves after supper. >> He did not leave right after supper. No, he didn't. >> Well, a little something. >> No, whatever. We said, "Okay, >> we just we just conceded that Wes was not home and he went missing." >> All right. He wasn't home. So therefore, you were the last to see her alive, right? >> I was last seen her alive. Yes. >> Yes. And he comes in the driveway at what time is? >> I 4:30. I don't know. >> And when he comes in at 4:00, you tell him. I've been looking for mom for an hour to an hour and a half. >> I said about an hour. >> Hourly up, Jim. >> Okay. Hour to an hour. hour and a half. I mean, that takes us to 2:30, >> right? >> It wasn't 2:30 when I got it. >> You're looking Well, I'm just going off. >> I know what I said. >> You know what I mean? So, >> I guess I should have wrote all my times down. >> Oh, you shouldn't have killed your wife. >> I didn't kill my wife. >> You can yell it all you want. >> I'm I'm not going to yell it. I'll tell you I didn't kill my wife and I don't know where she is. I don't know where she is. I did not kill my wife. I love that woman, man. I took care of her and I loved her. I would never never hurt her. >> Well, you will you would concede though, even though you said money wasn't an issue. There were there were medical bills. >> Yeah, there were medical, but they weren't I wasn't worried about them. I had money in my 401k. I could have jerked out to pay him if I had to. Well, that's no fun. And you need that to live on. >> I had enough in there, but I could have taken it out to pay the medical bills. How much you got in there? >> Right now, I got about 50 grand in it. And I started out with more than that. >> Vicki was lying for all those years when she went to the doctor and said that you were oppressive because you wouldn't allow her to have the medication that she wanted and you wouldn't allow her to see a medical doctor that she needed. Wicky was a liar, right? Yes, she I never You control the mother. Finish that. >> She was She was a liar. She lied all the time. >> I'm not saying she was a liar. I'm telling you this. >> You >> I tried to get her to the doctors more than once. >> The facts are in black and white for years. She told the doctors that you were abusive, that you were an alcoholic, a womanizer, and you had issues with money. You had issues with money for her prescription that didn't go. No, I'm saying she's a liar when she's reporting. >> I don't know. >> And I have stomach cancer and he wouldn't take me to the doctor. >> Vicki a liar when she reports this year after year after year. >> I don't know. >> No, it's either she is or she's not. >> Either you did it or she's a liar. >> I didn't do it. >> I didn't hurt her. >> Well, I'm asking if you oppressed her by not uh filling her prescription when you >> I filled her prescriptions. >> She's a liar. Then she's a liar, right? >> Her prescriptions never got denied. And you said something about stomach cancer with her. >> She had something wrong with her stomach and I got the pills for it and the pills were $300 and some dollars a piece. >> Yeah, they're expensive. >> These she had to take six of them or something. It wasn't stomach. >> No longer does, right, Jim? She no longer has to take them. >> No, they were old. >> She only had to take them for six days, >> right? And she reported to the doctor year after year that her prescriptions went unfilled because you Stop at CVS and see how many prescriptions I >> did. How many were filled? >> A lot. >> And then how many were filled at Bell & Health? Did you check there? >> I did. >> A lot there, too, right? >> Yeah. And she needed more >> and she reported to >> And how many were filled in plasty? >> A lot. >> All right. >> Yeah. And she was reporting to the doctor >> that she didn't get didn't get her medicine. Well, I have >> a lot of medicine. She was a >> I filled every prescription that the doctor ever gave her. >> That's not what's in the reports. So the doctor's line and Vickiy's line and the >> every prescription that Vicki ever gave to me was filled. >> So then she's Did she give them all to me? She got it from the doctor. I didn't. >> Let's say she didn't. Let's say she didn't. Is the doctor lying or is she lying when she reports that? >> I would say she had to be lying. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Can I can I ask you a question? This is about right after the medical appointment. Okay. >> Which one? >> On the 25th. The psychiatrist >> of April. Okay. >> April when the >> Okay. I got which the doctor's appointment because there's so many deaths. >> Okay. And you're questioned about the tablecloth today. You said there was no Just hear me out. Okay. He said there was no tablecloth. Okay. She may have mentioned something and I said, "Well, we'll go to the dollar store." Well, they don't have what I want there. May, you know, I mean, that might have been what it was. I I don't know. Uh uh there's that's a year ago. I What happened? You know what happened that day on the way home? It was like an ordinary day going to the doctor with her and coming home. You know, nothing out of the ordinary. Did this tablecloth discussion happen or not? I don't know. I honest to God don't remember talking about a tablecloth. >> Why did you talk about it here? >> You asked me about it. That's fine. >> So, you just made it up. >> What? To go to the dollar store. Did she want to go somewhere else to do that? >> I I really don't remember talking about a tablec there there wasn't some argument that night. >> No, no, there was no argument at all. There was no argument >> about nothing. >> No, about nothing. >> And you were just content living in that house with all that [ __ ] all over the walls. You were just content with that. >> That was made her. >> That was her. that made her happy. >> You were content with >> Yes. It didn't bother me one bit. >> Not one bit. Huh? >> No. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I I wondered why she did it all. >> And but you brought it up over and over again. >> If you knew what kind of mess she was saying, >> have you have you seen the house? You would tell me. Have you seen how she lives? >> Like that's like that's her issue. And that didn't bother you. That's why you kept on bringing it up to me for six years. You think that house is a mess? >> I think that house is evidence of mental health issues. >> What time did you go to bed? >> Uh, bed well to sleep 8:30, 9:00. >> Okay. I heard her about 9 or 9:30. That was the question about the >> microwave or something nuking the coffee. >> Yeah. >> 9 or 9:30. Wes isn't home anymore then. >> I don't know. >> What did you say about that today about the coffee? >> I said I may have. I don't remember. No, that's not what you said. >> Oh, okay. >> I don't know. >> I know you don't know. And that was only a few hours ago. But you said but you said I heard her. I heard her. >> I may have. >> And that's why I keep saying you're the last one with you're the last one to see her. You're the last one to hear her. >> All right. >> You know what I mean? >> I know. I understand that. >> Is this Is this not accurate? >> It could very well be accurate or not accurate. I She may have put something in the microwave and and I heard it. >> What did you testify today? Do you remember >> that? I didn't think I heard her do the microwave. >> Cuz you can't hear it because there's a room in between the bed and the bed where you were at. >> I don't know if I was in the bed or in the telling you what you testified to. You said there's a room between the >> There's a room between. Yes. But I don't know if I was in the bedroom or in the chair. >> Right. You you changed to that when you were told that you weren't in bed, so you changed to it. You're like a chameleon. >> I wish I jello on a wall. You you just >> I wish I wish she would walk in here and >> Oh, I know. And but tell you how many times I just just listen. Just like you told the searchers that she's not coming back and she's dead, stop with the [ __ ] now about her walking in. You've said that mantra. >> Like you said, I hide out the casino. Okay. I don't to the casino. >> I won't say anymore. >> I just happen to drive. >> I won't say anymore. Ask me what you want. I'll try and answer it the best I can. >> She was it is it accurate that she dressed up fairly regularly in not the last uh two three years. Before that, she was always >> So, it's not It wasn't abnormal for her to be dressed up that day. No, it wasn't abnormal for her to be dressed up and it wasn't abnormal for her not to get all dressed up and fixed up. >> It wasn't abnormal for her to do it. She would do it sometimes and then she wouldn't do it. She didn't do it nowhere near as much as she did. >> And she and and she didn't have enough pills to to kill herself. Not that I know of. Okay. I don't know if she had some stashed away. >> Miles, he said two and a half miles. You said this this this uh your wife would walk >> 2 and 1/2 miles with the furthest I've ever known her to walk. I mean >> I didn't say she walked two and a half miles that night. >> How about how how long did she walk that night? >> I don't know. >> I don't know where she is. >> Did you ever did you ever did do you know that she went out that night? I don't know. I mean, did did you know did you ever know her to leave the house >> at night? Yes, I know. >> That night? >> Not that night. Not that night. >> No, she was always in the house. You heard? You saw her. >> Yeah. >> But >> how long do you think How far do you think your wife could possibly walk at the time she disappeared? >> City blocks. City blocks. I mean, you estimate cuz you knew her. you know about >> estimate >> you estimate city blocks. How many city blocks do you think she can walk? At the time she went to she uh in April of 2013. How many >> I I don't know. She could maybe walk. Can she walk? She could maybe only walk three, you know. >> So three or 10 blocks. >> You know, there's times she could walk really good for >> No, no, no. That's not what I asked you. I asked in April of 2003. >> Okay. Anywhere 10 blocks, 12 blocks. She could have she could have 3 to 12. >> 3 to 10 or 12. 3 to 10 or 12. >> How many country blocks is that? >> I got no idea. >> Okay. >> Do you need a water? >> No. Water? >> I don't know. >> I'm going to go get a water. >> I don't know. >> Give us a minute. Okay. >> I'm going to get a water. >> What a country block is. >> I need you to thank Jim while we're out. >> I'm thinking and you're going to ask me. And if I could tell you where she is, Roman, I would tell you. >> I don't know where she is. >> That's not what I asked. I asked you to think about things and your future. >> I'm thinking about my future. I know where it's going to end up. >> James Popovitz was charged in Brown County, Wisconsin in 2019 with firstdegree intentional homicide with a domestic abuse modifier, resisting or obstructing an officer perjury before a court and conspiracy to commit perjury in connection with the 2013 disappearance and presumed homicide of his wife, Victoria Percopitz. On February 27th, 2021, a jury found him guilty of all four counts. On May 26th, 2021, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole on the homicide count with additional concurrent time on the remaining counts that does not alter the lifetime. As of the most recently verified public reporting, he remains incarcerated in the Wisconsin prison system, last identified at Wpun Correctional Institution.