Um they are explaining to me um that she suffered um a significant blunt force trauma to her head. Okay. Um she was struck, she was slammed. Um that created um it's not even the result of her accidentally bumping her head. Okay. Um, [clears throat] you recognize this? >> Yeah, that's what we woke my dog with when she poops in the house. And that's duct tape. >> You see anything else on that adhesive part of the duct tape? It's her hair. And what else? >> It looks like some discoloration. Okay. >> Well, they're they're the pink pink little fibers. from her pink shirt, the injury your daughter sustained. Okay? It wasn't an accidental injury. It wasn't the result of an illness or a disease. You were the only person in that house with your daughter when she fell ill. Okay? And then I'm listening to what you're telling me. It's clear to me that you're not telling me the truth about what occurred. the pink top in the blue jeans in the duct tape. Do you know where we found that at? You do know. >> I'm going to assume her clothes were in her room. >> Okay. Well, the the pink top and the blue jeans and the duct tape were in the sink in the bathroom and it was wet. All right. the head trauma was so significant that those symptoms would have presented themselves immediately. Like she went out and I know she had on the pink top and the little blue jeans. >> No. When their friends picked her up, she was on the floor in a yellow top >> that was soaking wet. >> So why would I change her clothes? >> I don't know. Explain. >> I didn't change her clothes. She walked to the bathroom with me. She climbed in that bathtub. I don't care that you don't believe me. That is what happened. And now I'm I'm done cuz I'm getting to the point. I'm upset. >> Okay. >> It is upsetting. You're right. It's very upsetting. This is the interrogation of Britney Maize. On July 29th, 2016, Cincinnati police were called to a home on Beach Avenue where four-year-old Avery Hobbs was found unresponsive. She died at Cincinnati Children's Hospital 3 days later. The coroner ruled her death a homicide, blunt force injuries to the head. 12 days after the 911 call, Avery's mother, Britney Maize, 7 months pregnant, sat down with a Cincinnati homicide detective. What follows is that interrogation presented in full. I'll be right with you. >> Okay. [snorts] Grab my file here. >> [clears throat] >> Sorry about that. >> No, you're running around here all all morning. >> I get it. >> How you how you holding up? >> Um, you know, trying to do the best I can. I've got friends and family trying to make sure I stay busy because they all know that if I just sit I will shut down and obviously I can't do that. >> Yeah. >> So, [clears throat] >> how far along are you? I can't remember. >> Um I actually got two months left. >> Okay. You feeling pretty good though? >> As good as I can be. >> Yeah. Yeah. Considering >> you know what's happened here. I understand that. So that and you know everything that they've been putting on the media, the Facebook, I'm just I ended up actually deleting my Facebook because they were stealing pictures of my daughter off my Facebook. I'm just like you guys care about her. Why don't you have pictures of your own? Why do you have to take them off my stuff? >> Yeah. >> So I'm just like >> almost like they were picking on you trying to >> Yeah. people I they were as much as I want to hear but they friends and family were telling me about some of the stuff that was said on the news um on Facebook and I'm just like all these allegations about what happened and the autopsy report's not done yet and they're trying to make me out to be a monster the father of the year he wasn't allowed to have any type of contact with her didn't pay [clears throat] any type of support but he's this great person, but I'm like this horrible person. I'm like, I fought hand and foot for to get her back and to make sure she had stuff I didn't have growing up. I busted my ass. >> Right. Okay. >> And how how how are you holding up? How are how are you and in there? >> We're hanging in there. Um we finally actually just went back home the other day cuz we hadn't been >> um we actually went back >> talking about back on beach. >> Yeah, we actually went back home. Um, let's see. Today, we went back Monday night. >> Okay. >> Yeah, it's Wednesday night now. >> We went back Monday night. Uh, obviously it was hard for both of us because last place he seen her was when he put her in timeout when he left. Me, the last place I seen her was in the shower and shower still chaotic from the whole incident. So, I'm just like >> it to it took some time. [clears throat] Um, the first couple days after I came home from the hospital, um, I don't want to say we were fighting, but it was kind of attitude. Do >> you mind if I sit on the couch? Oh, >> good. It was kind of like attitude towards each other. And then cuz me with everything going on, all I wanted is just, you know, my husband and everything, he's like, he wouldn't touch me, he wouldn't look at me. And I'm just, >> so me with everything going on, I'm like, why? And he goes, "You cuz Avery was Avery was my mini me. She looked dead on me >> except her hair was lighter than mine." >> Right. Right. >> So, and that was his his reason. He goes, "Every time I look at you," he goes, "There's Avery." He goes, "I just" [clears throat] >> So, it was >> You guys able to get back to work or >> um he went back to work. Okay. Okay. >> Well, he went to work Monday and stayed an hour and kind of freaked out because he got the call while he was at work. So, >> yeah, >> he freaked out. [clears throat] >> Um, and then he was supposed to go in yesterday, but his boss told him that he was going to put time in. Don't come in. I've not been back to work at all. >> All right. Um, well, I completely u My attitude would be take as much time as you need. Well, and that's um I tried to get my um my OB/GYN to sign my paperwork so I can start my medical leave so I can you know. >> Sure. >> And actually he decided to refuse me prenatal care. >> Really? >> Yes. Told me had enough nerve to tell me that I didn't love Avery. I didn't want her and I don't want the baby I'm carrying. So he was no longer going to give me prenatal care. >> Okay. So, which obviously a medical professional cannot do regardless of >> that sounds pretty extreme >> of what they feel. I mean, I know there's a lot with the news and whatnot, but >> they can't they can't just refuse. >> More [clears throat] people pay attention. They're more interested in it. >> I mean, I know my uh my neighbors I had two of my neighbors that came up and visited me while I was in the hospital. Um they even got Charles to come up and visit cuz you've seen him. He was the mess. They got Charles to come up and visit. Um, they were telling me about how people were telling them that was drowned and then there's stuffilly >> stuff on Facebook about how I beat her with until she died. [snorts] I tied her to bed and [clears throat] all that stuff. I'm just like, >> oh my god. >> You know what it's >> I haven't I >> turn it off. Don't watch it. >> I didn't watch news anyway. I care less about the news. But yeah, when all that stuff definitely started, I'm like, "Yep, I'm definitely not watching news." Um, I found out they were taking pictures of my daughter off Facebook off my Facebook. I deleted my Facebook. I'm just like, >> this is [clears throat] And then, you know, I got my sister-in-law telling me that I had two people that were threatening me because I had about >> So, what help me out about Avery? I mean, I know she passed. Okay. Um, [clears throat] that's the first thing. I think it's important to me that um you and Charles cared for her. Um, and uh, you know, that kind [clears throat] of breaks my heart that questions about that. Okay. All right. Um, see, oops. It's actually 10:36 hours. Okay. Before we ask you any questions, you must understand your rights. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before he asks you any questions and have him with you during questioning. If you can't afford a lawyer, one will one will be appointed for you before any question if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time. You also have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to a lawyer. That's always a mouthful. >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> Okay. Um, do you understand your rights? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. All right. All right. So, this whole thing, they're kind of harassing you. Um, >> they're I don't want to say they're really they're harassing me, but they threatened me. And it was on Facebook. Um, one of Charles's sisters. um well actually two of his sisters have kind of been watching the stuff they post on Facebook since you know the stuff that they're doing on the media and um >> so they've been screenshotting everything and one of the I heard about the other one I didn't see it but the other one I actually seen the post um last week I think it was Um, I called down to the corners to, you know, to see if the autopsy was done so I could make funeral arrangements. >> Sure. >> Cuz I know the autopsy has to be done before, >> right? >> Um, and you know, they said, "Yeah, blah, blah, whatever." Well, then the next day, I get woke up to my dad, my brother's ex-girlfriend, which is the my niece's mom, blowing up my phone, like, you know, going on about funeral arrangements. And like, I didn't tell him. I'm like, what are you talking about? Well, come to find out, father went down and made funeral arrangements to have her taken out to Indiana, buried, and everything else. >> Okay. Would this would that be Jamie? Okay, that's biological father, right? >> Right. >> Okay. >> Um, so obviously I called the corner cuz I'm the one that has custody and everything and like >> no, >> you are the next token. >> Right. I'm like, no. Like this is no. So they put a hold on her body. Um, and I guess the corner had to call the funeral home and the funeral home had to call them. I don't know exactly how that worked, but >> eventually um you know I went and talked to newcomer and um they told me to come back and set an appointment and they needed that paperwork as well that stating he wasn't allowed to have contact. So I was able to sign off without needing his signature. Well then they called me and told me that um the corner needed the same paperwork. >> Okay. >> So I called the corner back >> and help me. Is that what you're talking about or >> It was through the courts during a custody battle between myself and Jamie's mom and stepdad. >> Okay. Okay. >> It was put in there that he wasn't allowed to have any contact with her. >> Okay. So, that came from a magistrate. It was a J Avery, >> right? >> Okay. >> So, they needed that same paperwork. So, I called the corner and, you know, told them about it or asked them what they wanted me to do. And they're like, "Well, let me see what's going on." Cuz I talked to that day I talked to like three different people. gets confusing. Yes. >> Um and then he comes back and goes, "Well, somebody came down here with a paperwork about an injunction." And he gave me the date. So obviously I was like, "Okay." So caught around, blah blah blah, whatever. Um and finally got the information I needed about the injunction and the time and the place I needed to go. And then talked to the funeral home and they were like, "Well, obviously we can't do anything until after the injunction." Okay, that you know that's fine. And then well apparently I guess Tammy posted something which is Jamie's mom >> posted something. >> So she would be the paternal grandmother. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Posted something on Facebook about how I have Avery's body on hold and they can't do the funeral and whatever. >> Okay. >> Well, I guess you know people sharing it and whatnot. Um, apparently one girl said that she didn't know me, but she lived over by me, so if they told her where I live that she'd come and smack the [ __ ] out of me. Um, and then one another guy was like, he's a friend of Jamie's. >> Okay. >> And he goes, "No, I know her personally. Just let me know where she's at and I'll go and I'll quickly change her mind." And I'm just like, >> "Well, you know, now I've got lies out there. I've got people threatening me. I'm like, can they walk outside because there's news everywhere? I'm like, [clears throat] >> this is >> just crazy. And then, you know, like, >> did you ever had the did you ever had the understand you correctly? And if I'm wrong, stop me. Um, >> before you could react, it sounds like Sounds like it's going to go before a judge. >> Yeah. Um, August 15th, so actually Monday. >> Um, we go for an injunction for custody of April. [clears throat] >> Okay. So which again this is >> because your wish your wishes are that you be the one that handle Avery's burial and and all of that. >> Well I at this point cuz I'm no parent should bury a child or have to deal with this child should not pass before a parent. >> No. Yeah. >> So and I'm not ready cuz like I even told the hospital like I'm a firm believer in organ donor. I don't want to donate organs cuz I'm just not ready to be let go. So, I wanted her to be cremated and be up next to her baby brother that we miscarried last year. >> Okay. >> Cuz I'm just >> Do you mind? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, I want [clears throat] to have a cream cuz I'm just not ready. >> No, I understand. No, I get it. >> I'm just, you know, I'm just Yeah. So, and um apparently they found out about that too and they're like, "Oh, she's trying to hide evidence." I'm like, "What evidence is there to hide right >> autopsies done?" >> They're they posted something. Actually, my dad sent me to it. I can actually send this is one screenshot I do have of something they posted. So, I can actually show you this one because I'm not sure word [clears throat] what it says. >> But it was basically the corner trying to hide something um hide cover up what Children's Services did because they would constantly call Children's Services and come out. Children Services come out and find nothing wrong with Avery. So, they dismissed the whole allegations. So, just so I'm clear, um Michael Anthony >> is um Tammy's brother. Tammy has been married twice. >> Tammy is the appeared in front of my house doing slow circles. Huh. I said to the guy that there would be held a pegs and he said I was threatening him. uh in the courts in the court of public opinion the so Michael would be Avery's uncle right okay >> so yes I mean this is my thing is is they what they're talking about with agency covering up for agency they feel >> the corners is covering up for children services cuz like I said >> which is absolutely ridiculous it's not >> not true right you know that >> right Tammy and Jonathan would constantly call children services After every time they seen Avery because of the custody battle that we had, they got visitation. >> And you kept >> she would get >> visitation rights. >> She got visitation. Yes. >> Okay. >> Um >> what what what was that like? What were the requirements to her visiting Avery? >> Obviously no contact with Jamie. >> Um but they would just get Monday, Tuesday, Thursdays. Um, but it was like one week Monday, one week Tuesday, skip a week because they couldn't do Wednesday and then Thursday [clears throat] and skip two weeks and go Monday, Tuesday. >> So it was essentially like one day a week have her for 24 hours or 8 hours. >> They would have her they would have her from 3 3 to 8. Sorry, I meant to say 2 days, but no, it was 3 to 8. >> Okay. So full hours late afternoon, early evening kind of a thing. Okay. And um and every the day after they had a visit chose my case worker Germaine, he was trying to close my case because the case worker on before she should have closed it two years ago and never did. >> Um >> who who was that person or what why do you say that? >> Um well actually she was supposed to close it sorry not two years before last year. >> Okay. >> Um but she never did. Um >> and this is a JFS >> JFS worker >> worker. Okay. Um, she never did because there was always something she thought I needed to do even though I had custody and I didn't have to do services anymore. So once I got custody, she was supposed to close it and never did. Okay. >> She kept it open. >> And then they knew that and Stephanie was causing problems. So we went to her supervisor. Her supervisor wasn't doing anything. And so we went to his supervisor and supervis the his supervisor um was saying that how Stephanie was in three state violations by keeping my case open and you know cuz they did an investigation on her. >> So they took Stephanie off my case and put her supervisor Germaine on it. >> Okay. >> And he came out you know did you know a couple visits and he's like okay well I'm going to close you know close the case. Then it was he started getting calls about allegations. So obviously before he closed the case he have to come out. So he'd come out talk check Avery out talk to Avery. He's like okay well there's nothing wrong you know. >> Okay so [clears throat] this is this is the new >> so and it was like every time he come out like okay well I'm going to close the case blah blah blah. Well, then he'd get another call about allegations and obviously he can't close it until he checks out, >> investigates the news. >> So, okay. >> And that's one thing that they put on the news when they were doing all the news um interviews and whatnot is that they um would constantly call children services and make, you know, about complaints and they constantly got dismissed. Well, obviously Children's Services didn't feel that what Children were doing with my daughter was wrong. Okay. >> You know, I had her in counseling because she needed help because she would pull out her hair. That's why her hair was cut because we told her she did it the next time cuz she'd pull it from the back and she knew the top part would cover it. So, we wouldn't see it unless we were giving her a shower or something. >> Okay. >> So, we told her the next time she did it, she was getting her haircut and the JFS case worker knew. That's what we had told her. And he said, "Well, you got to do what you got to do." Um cuz she would pull out chunks where she would be in bald spots. >> Why? [clears throat and cough] Why was she doing that? Do you know? >> When we would ask her why she did it, she said it was because she was angry, but when we'd ask her why she was angry, she would just say, "I don't know." So, it was And then the therapist said it was because she had anxiety problems. Well, they put her on medication, but the medication wasn't working. >> What meds did they have her on? Um the first one that they tried was clonedine and she I don't know if she had like an allergic reaction to it or what. I actually got a picture I can show you but she had um something was wrong and um she this is what it did. The clonine was a patch >> almost like a rash. >> Yeah. And she would itch out it >> blotchy. >> She would itch out it take it off. So I'm like okay well obviously this isn't working. So then they gave her a pill, but I'm not quite sure what it was called. It started with a G. I do know that. >> Okay. >> But I can't remember um exactly what it's called, but this is this is what she would do. So, and they the no matter what type of treatment we did >> [snorts] >> um with the therapist, you know, [clears throat] ways to handle it, it just wasn't working cuz Avery would she'd get to the point she would just fall out and just start hitting her head, which I took her to the doctor or the hospital last September for it, >> okay? >> Because she got to the point where she didn't want to listen. She was pulling out her hair. Um so, we put her in the corner. Um, and she started banging her head on the wall. >> Okay. >> So, >> how how would how would she do that? >> Okay. >> And so, we got to the point we never put her in the corner anymore. We'd always have her like in the middle of the room doing something and if she decided she didn't want to do it cuz she thought she was the boss, which a lot of the problems came from she she would say that Tammy and Jonathan would tell her that she didn't have to listen to Charles and I. She could just do whatever she wanted and that's how it was. So, a lot of times that's why she got in trouble. Okay. >> Because that's that's not the case. >> Well, it sounds like >> Is it fair to say that she was [clears throat] Is that a fair assessment? >> Avery was Avery wasn't really a handful. She was a sweet child. She Everybody loved her. She loved make people laugh. She She pretty much until it got to the point like it got visit started being more and more current. >> Okay. Um, that's when stuff would just come out. >> Let me ask you this. When when did you get um when was Avery living with you full-time? >> April 30th of this year. >> Okay. So, April 30th of 2015. Um, were you with Charles then? >> Yes. [clears throat] >> Okay. So, you guys, the three of you guys were living all together at that point. >> Um, we didn't start living together. Well, I mean, he'd stay with me at my mom's cuz at that time I lived with my mom. >> Okay. >> Um, and that happened for about a month and then we moved out cuz my mom was going through a thing with um her mortgage company. >> Okay. >> Um, and you know, they told her that she didn't have to pay anything, but they were taking her house and >> so she ran into some financial problems. >> Yeah. When we when we moved up here from Kentucky, she had bought the house with a boyfriend and two years into that they split up. >> Okay. >> So, it was that whole Yeah. >> So, when did you guys you, Charles, and Avery, when were you guys living together full-time? >> July. Actually, we did that for about two months. Um, we moved into our house now. >> 12:32 beach. Okay. We're now [clears throat] >> July 17th of last year. >> Okay. So for you know >> so July of last year um you got >> our we had our little moments. Okay. >> Um the first time it happened >> I mean I'd seen her pull our hair out before but it was just kind of like a few strands. >> So I really you know didn't think anything of it. And then September last year that's when she pulled out the most. >> Okay. >> And you know put her in the corner and she did all that. So, I took her to the hospital and um Stephanie, she was still my case worker at the time. >> Okay. >> Talked to Avery with another case worker without me in the room. Talked to her three different times and Avery told her the same thing that she did to herself, but she didn't know why. >> Okay. >> Um Stephanie removed out of my care and that's how I ended up getting her taken off the case because >> she everything was voluntary. like it was, you know, she asked if she could do the investigation and take Avery out of my care for, you know, just a short period of time. So, I'm thinking a month at the most. >> She had her out of my care until December 4th. >> And that's when, you know, everything like, okay, this is too much. So, I started calling supervisor Stephanie got involved. >> Stephanie said, cuz she said, although Avery said she did it to herself, they still have to investigate. >> I did. Okay, don't get me wrong. So, and even um she placed Avery with a family friend because my mom lives out all the way out in Claremont County now. >> Okay. >> So, I can still go see Avery. She put her with a family friend that I grew up with who's like second mom to me. >> Um and she told her the same thing that, you know, it's only going to be for a couple weeks. Well, then it just start making excuses after I was or >> how Avery got started in therapy. She used to go to this place called Young Child Institute. >> Okay. >> And when she was placed with grandmother and stepgrandfather, um they were complaining that Avery was hitting her head on the wall, pulling out her hair, so she needed behavioral therapy. >> Okay. >> So, they put her in it and um I'm like, I've never had these problems, you know, but I only had her on the weekend. >> Okay. So, you know, um >> well, then when I started seeing the problems cuz I started asking Stephanie about it and what kind of help and >> she was like, "Well, let me call Tammy and Jonathan to see if they've ever had this problem." And they were like, "No, we've never had this problem, but it's on court record. That's why she got started there because they were reporting she was hitting her head and >> okay, >> pulling her hair out." So, I'm just like, [clears throat] "So, you're just going to let them lie to you and that's that?" And I'm just the bad parent, I guess. >> Okay. >> So, cuz everything I did or tried to do to get Avery help, Stephanie made it seem like I was just a bad parent. I didn't know how to handle her. But, I mean, how do you handle a child that pulls out their hair, hits their head on the wall or on the floor, falls out, and, you know, bangs their head on the floor because >> and they they they can't tell you why. >> Okay. And well, come to find out, obviously there's cuz one of my neighbors, they came to visit me in the hospital and visit Avery in the hospital. Um they're are foster parents, but they're also ministers. And she was telling me one of the little girls that they brought in for foster care did the same thing. And um again, doctor, social workers didn't believe them. And then one day she finally fell out in the hospital and started doing it. And um they ended up having to put her in a psychiatric ward. >> Oh no. >> And they said they doped her up so bad that she was like a zombie. >> Jeez. >> So I'm like at least I don't feel so bad that somebody else has experienced this because I thought [clears throat] like everybody just made me seem like I was a bad parent because >> True. >> No. Yeah. All the the help. >> I got nothing. But when I was talking to my neighbor, okay, she was telling me about her experience with one of the foster care, the foster children, um, >> and putting her in the psychiatric ward because what she was doing, the doctors told her that it was a chemical imbalance. >> Okay. >> And they had to put her on medication. >> Okay. So, going back to Avery situation, um, >> and see not knowing because nobody would help me, >> right? >> How how would I know how to handle? >> So, you really did and I and I understand that. So, I mean, when she would fall when she would fall down because we, like I said, we didn't put her in the corner anymore. That was just because she bruised her face. So, we'd make her stand in the middle of the room or like I told you, we'd make her run. >> Okay. >> Um, because the last couple months, she just kind of got lazy. Um, if she didn't want to do it, she would tell you she didn't want to do it and she wasn't going to do it. And she'd throw herself down like a typical kid about to have a tantrum. But most kids fall forward and kicking feet, kicking, you know, their hands and whatnot. She would fall back and start hitting her head until well, I I'm not allowed to pick her up. So Charles would pick her up and try and hold her. >> Okay. >> And she's still trying to headbutt Charles and squirm and everything else. >> And this was all over because she didn't want to >> do what she was being told to do. >> Yeah. Because she got in she did something she wasn't supposed to do. So, she got in trouble and she didn't want to go in timeout because apparently when she's over there that she can just do whatever she wants even if it's wrong and she doesn't get trouble for it. So she >> So you believe >> you're basically the bad guy because >> her bad behavior at home because >> basically when you got a four-year-old that looks at you and tells them tells you that she does not have to listen to you because you're not the boss she is and she can do whatever the hell she wants and you tell her something and she tells you to [ __ ] off and [ __ ] you. I'm just like where is this coming from? >> Right? And so we'll sit there and once we get her calmed down and everything, we'll sit there and ask her why she feels like that. And she goes, "Mama and Papy say I can do whatever I want. I don't have to listen to you and you're not my boss. Only they are." And you know that whole kind of thing. >> At any time, did you ever talk to them, the grandparents, about what was going on? >> If I would say something, they were just like, "Oh, she's just a perfect angel." I'm just like, >> "Okay, well, you're no help to me at all." So, I just kind of kept it to the short, sweet, and >> okay, >> didn't say anything more than I had to today. >> So, what medications, just so I understand, um, what medications was Avery on? What was prescribed to her? >> She she was prescribed a [snorts] anxiety medication. >> Do you remember the name of that one? >> The first one was the clan patch. The second one, it started with a G. I cannot for the life of me think of it right now. >> Okay. Um, but when I get home, I can find the bottle and call you. >> Okay. >> Um, and then she was prescribed a sleeping medication because she, like I was telling you in the hospital, she wasn't sleeping, but then with the sleeping medication, she wasn't sleeping either. So, I just stopped giving it to her. What's the point? >> Okay. Do you remember what that medication was? >> You're Yes, she was on medication, but she hadn't had the she hadn't had the medication in I don't know how long. >> Okay. >> Um, maybe >> what about what about the other Did you stop doing that also? I stopped doing that as well just because it seemed like again it seemed like it wasn't >> okay. >> It seemed like her behavior was actually worse when she was on it. >> Really? >> Yes. So I was like, "Okay, well this is kind of having a reverse >> like an adverse [clears throat] or reverse effect of her." >> So I'm just like, "Okay, well what's the point of >> Did you talk to the doctors about that?" >> Yeah. And they didn't want to try anything else because of her age. Um >> Okay. >> Cuz I originally thought again didn't know anything about the chemical imbalance. >> Sure. Um, I originally thought that it was like ADD cuz I know my sister has it, so it runs on my side of the family. And then, um, her father apparently had like all types of medical issues growing up or mental issues. >> Avery's father. >> Yeah. Had a bunch of mental issues growing up. You're >> talking about Jamie? Yeah. >> Okay. >> And he was on like all types of medications growing up. >> Okay. >> And one of the things he had was ADD. So I was like, "Okay, well talked about this. Therapist didn't want to hear anything about it." So, I talked to the pediatrician and the pediatrician cuz obviously you have to do like little quiz thing or whatever. So, I did that and they called me and she was like, "Yeah, she has it, but I don't feel comfortable giving her medication for it." >> Okay. >> So, I was like, >> "Who who was her pediatrician?" >> Uh, Diana Brinker. >> Brinker. That's right. Diana Brinker. Okay. >> Um, so I was like, "Okay, well, that doesn't help me any." I'm like, "You're not the one that has to deal with a monster child, I guess." I'm like, >> is that is that a fair assessment? >> Yeah. And that's all I wanted. My thing is is in the beginning I I don't like taking medication. Like it kills me now just to take my prenatal vitamins. I just don't like medication. I don't want my kid to be on medication. >> So my thing is is that's why I stuck with the therapy cuz I figure okay well maybe >> some alternative but every alternative she >> doing in Avery things to work on. >> Yeah. It was like um because like I said they said it was just anxiety. So it was um and they felt that's why she was pulling out her hair. So it was when we seen Avery get anxious, you know, have her kind of jump around, hold my hand and jump around or rub the table or her legs to help her calm down, but it was >> it didn't seem like it worked. And then um you know, she'd want us to when I put Avery to bed, reach her to help her go to sleep, and that would help with the bond and everything else. Sure. >> I mean, Avery and I had a really good bond, but it was it was supposed to help with behavior as well, and it it didn't. >> Okay. >> But again, most of her behavior was after visits. >> Okay. >> Other than that, I didn't have too many issues. >> Would come home from from grandmother. >> I mean, and I could just be, you know, that could just be a typical kid according to my mom that when I came home from visiting my dad, I acted out for a couple days, too. Okay. >> I don't remember much from my childhood, so I was not going to tell you. [laughter] >> Okay. I'm I'm sorry. >> That's just a normal kid thing. >> Okay. >> But I mean with Avery because she'd get two visits back to back basically a week later. So it was like for two weeks straight. It was just constant. >> Right. Right. >> Nothing but her being disrespectful and whatnot. And then she'd go a week without seeing him and she was good. And then when she would go two weeks without you know again she was didn't have to yell at her >> it leveled out. >> Yeah. So I don't know if that was just >> okay >> her being a typical kid and like I said the therapist said she had anxiety which is a mental disorder. So I don't know. Could you did you ever determine um like could you determine what the triggers were for her anxiety? >> Um in talking with the therapist it was because you know basically what I said where Avery said she basically could do whatever she wanted. >> Okay. >> And >> so she would challenge you >> basically. So it was okay it's time to eat. She knows I want her to eat but she doesn't want to. says she's going to go to control the situation by not eating, which I mean Avery did quite a bit where she would refuse to eat. So, it was well, you don't get to get up until you eat your food. I could care less if it takes all night. [laughter] >> Okay. >> So, and she said it was just she didn't Avery just didn't like what I had to say. So, she wanted to sit here and control the situation regardless of what it was. So whether it was self harming herself, >> okay, >> refusal to eat, to drink, use the restroom because Avery got to the point where she was she would refuse to use the restroom whether it was to pee or to poo. >> Okay. >> Um she said it was just that was just her way of being in charge. >> Okay. >> Or controlling the situation basically. So >> now how did that make you feel? It made me I mean with everything going on it kind of made me feel like I was a bad parent just because >> there was I tried to do everything I could you know to help you know I'd even try to play games with her try and get her to eat try to oh well if you eat your food you can have ice cream you know >> the whole kaboo that >> like rewards try to motivate her with rewards ice cream and >> and it was just like it didn't work and um even it used to be really bad like I couldn't Avery would be really good and you know most kids love to hear their parents oh you did a good job I'm so proud of you right >> Avery when she would hear that it was kind of like a light switch like it was >> she immed like it was something negative >> even you know I'd say you know how proud of her I was it kind of I got a negative reaction actually out >> like it was just like an adverse effect. And I was talking to the therapist about that and she goes, "Well, with what you were telling me on how she was raised at their house," she goes, "That's completely normal." >> Okay. Why'd you say that? >> In the court trials, um Avery at 2 years old was still sleeping in a crib in their bedroom instead of in a toddler bed. >> Okay. um she would get stuck in a pack and play with just a few toys instead of being able to get up and play and be a kid. Um she goes, "So there was really no none of that interaction." >> Okay. >> I mean, even when they showed pictures in court on why they should have custody, there was they were just of Avery, but she had this devastated look on her face. There was no adult child interaction, no child child interaction, no anything, not even of her playing. They had a sandbox and she's just sitting there with her feet in the sand and just looked >> devastated like >> like sad like that or >> Yeah. She just >> Okay. >> She was just sad crying. I'm just like >> Okay. >> But every when I threw her birthday cuz I got to do her second birthday, she's like all excited and everything else. And you know, >> I'm just like I just don't understand. You know, they love this little girl, but they didn't have any new pictures of them holding her, playing with her. Where when I put pictures in the court, she was with my oldest daughter, she was with my mom, my brother, my sister, me, my grandparents, you know, just everybody. She had nothing but smiles on her face. >> Right. Okay. >> So, I'm just like, >> so when you were trying to, she wanted [clears throat] no part of bonding with you >> because I guess she never had it. She never had a bond. So it was and I mean Arbond it got better. I mean it got to the point eventually that I could say she did a good job or even before I could say she did a good job. She goes I did a good job and you're proud of me and I'm like yeah you know like so it got to that point where I was able to do it and I didn't have a problem. And I mean like I said she would even come out and blurt it out before I could even say it. >> Right. Right. Right. >> And you know so I mean our bond got you know eventually got to that point. I mean it took when once I switched therapist um within like two months I guess it kind of our bond kind of got right to where it needed to be. >> Okay. So you were you left Beach Acres then? >> No I left Young Child Institute to go to Beach Acres. >> Okay. All right. So you had greater success at Beach Acres >> with Young Child Institute. She had two therapists there. One was Margaret but she left and Avery did really good with her. >> Okay. And then the therapist she had when I left, um, Suzanne, it it was kind of like she didn't have kids because she would just let Avery just walk all over her. >> Okay. >> And I would constantly have to get on Avery in these sessions like, "No." >> Right. >> Miss Suzanne said, "We're going to do this, so this is what we're going to do." >> Okay? >> Said, "You don't get to choose." Miss Suzanne didn't ask you what she wanted to do. It'd be different if she asked you, but she didn't ask you. >> Okay? So, and Miss Suzanne, she was just kind of, like I said, she was just kind of more of like a pushover, you know what I mean? So, I'm just like, "Okay, this >> was Avery kind of taking advantage of her personality." >> Oh, yeah. So, I'm just like, "Okay, this is" And then with Miss Rachel, Miss Rachel would put her foot down. You know, Avery trying and she'd look at Avery and she goes, "Are you supposed to do that?" And she she goes, "No." She goes, "Okay, cuz I just told you no, right?" She goes, "Yes." She goes, "So when Miss Rachel or mommy or somebody says no, what are you supposed to say?" Neighbor would get this look on her face like, "Oh shit." >> Right. >> And she like, and [clears throat] Miss Rachel be like, "You're supposed to be like, okay." And >> all right. >> So, I mean, I definitely had a lot more success. So when I start going there within like I said the first two to 3 months I was able to get that positive reinforcement without her go turning it around and start acting out and I got the bond where you know where it should be with a mother and a child at that point in time. >> So you you're starting to move in the right direction it sounds like. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, it it sounds like that you therapy, medications, etc. Um, so yeah, that's really involved. No doubt. >> And that's one thing I can say about Charles cuz most guys, it's not their kids. So most guys wouldn't stick around. They're like, "This is too much for me." I've seen it before. I mean, not just >> with me, just other people. Like Charles, he stuck through. I mean, even Germaine, he had nothing but nice things to say about how he felt the way Charles did stuff with Avery, right? Whether it was discipline or just >> Germaine was the the the latest or the newest case worker. Okay. >> Um no matter, you know, Avery's discipline and or how he just handled Avery altogether that he felt it was good for her >> because he could see that sometimes I guess my voice isn't stern enough. So when I go to say something to Avery, it's easy for her to like, yeah, whatever. And for Charles, he he just look at Avery and just say her name and it's just like immediately like, >> okay, >> he's got [clears throat] more of a command presence, right? >> So it was he's like he was >> he was happy I was with Charles and Charles didn't walk away or, you know, get up and just be like, I'm done with this, >> right? So, you know, he felt Charles helped out a lot with Avery. And Avery Avery adore Charles. I mean, she got to the point she would even try to go to the bathroom with him. And it was like, Avery, you can't do that. And of course, she didn't understand. She was like, "But why?" I'm like, "Because he's a boy and he's got certain things that we don't have. So, you don't see boys naked and boys don't see girls naked, >> right?" Yeah. >> But yeah, I mean, working on the car, she'd be right there. I care less about working on a car. So I just sit on a forge and watch like, "Okay, whatever. You go have fun." Every Saturday cuz I was in school, they'd go fishing and have their basically father daughter time cuz that I mean she called in daddy a few times, but we still corrected her and told her no. But I mean every once in a while it was still that I mean she was basically daddy's little girl, >> right? >> She >> that's what they wanted to do. I mean, even for his birthday back in April, he asked her what she wanted to do and she goes fishing. That was that was her thing. So, >> she enjoyed Yeah. >> We went fishing and um I sat back and I took quite a few pictures of him helping her fish and >> Right. >> You know, >> where did you guys go? >> We went down um at that time we went to down on Kellogg. >> Okay. >> There's that little playground in the river down there. >> Okay. Yeah. So you guys would just go down on the river and fish. >> Yeah. Um >> that's cool. Yeah. >> So, but yeah, she we always thought of it, you know, Avery just being nosy cuz she would just sit there and stare. You know, she wouldn't say anything like most kids they look at you and them like, "Oh, well, I want this or I want that." She would just sit there and just stare her and just kind of watch. And we always just thought she was being nosy. So, we used to always get on her. But thinking about it with especially how attached she was to Charles that she she just everywhere Charles went she had to know where he was. Like she didn't like when he went to work because if I said something she didn't like she was like I want you to call Charles. >> Okay. >> And I'm just like I'm not bothering Charles at work. >> Right. Right. >> And she would get so mad. I mean with her and I her favorite thing to do with me was puzzles. She absolutely love puzzles. So we'd sit there and she's got like a million puzzles. We'd sit there and just work on the puzzles, play Barbie dolls, but her and Charles's thing is fishing. Sometimes she'd want me to go, sometimes she would. I'm like, "All right, >> gotcha. >> You just do what you got to do. As long [laughter] as you're having fun, I don't care. Time and then, you know, later, you know, and mommy can go do our thing and draw is going to have his time." And that's just how it just how it was. And I said, she was the happiest child. I don't know. That's what that's what kills me about everything that they're putting on Facebook and whatnot is how she was just so unhappy and abused, but I've got nothing but pictures of her being happy. I mean, yeah, I've got a few pictures where she's got bruises, but she came back to me with bruises on her. So, obviously, I took pictures to make sure I had documentation, but yeah, I'm just like they she was so unhappy, but I've got nothing but pictures of her smiling. And you want to sit here and say that you cared about her, but you didn't even have pictures of your own to do your visual and all that stuff. You had to take home for me. So obviously you didn't care about her that much, >> right? >> Otherwise, you would have had pictures. >> Let's go back late or early Saturday morning. Um >> trying to remember every >> Yeah. No, I know. Um that's kind of how we started it. Can you walk me through >> on a typical Well, I that Friday it was like any other day. got up, got ready for work. Um, I gave Charles a kiss before I left. >> Okay. >> Um, cuz he gets home at 1:00 in the morning, but he stays downstairs to eat dinner or whatnot. So, he wasn't truly asleep. >> So, you and Charles, you guys share like Okay. >> So, >> where does Avery sleep? >> She sleeps in her bedroom. >> Okay. Um, and we've got a baby monitor in there because of the hair pooling and whatnot. Um, and I always check on her because before Charles got his his schedule, I used to have to take her to a daycare. Um, but because of the schedule, there was no point paying him for daycare when she could just stay at home. >> Sure. Right. >> Um because eventually she wasn't going to go to daycare anyway because she was going to start school. So, >> Right. Um, >> so I would just check on the monitor to see, you know, what she's doing. I never went in there. Um, >> so you looked at the monitor and what did you see? >> She was she wasn't really moving around. I mean, her foot was moving, so I don't know if she was up or not. I know when I sleep, my feet move. >> Okay. >> So, >> what was your impression? I mean, did you think she But she was lying down. >> Yeah, she was lying down and just sort of foot moving. But >> Okay. Sometime I I used to go in there after I stopped taking her to daycare, but a few of the times I woke her up, so I was just like, "Okay, well, I'll just stop going in there." And um so I looked at the monitor, seen her moving, gave Charles a kiss, went downstairs, got my lunch, and got my shoes on. Out the door I went. Um, >> what what time did you leave the house? >> I leave the house at 4:30. I get up at 4:15. >> Okay. >> Um, >> what time do you have to be up work? >> Not they don't open till 6:00. I just get there 5:00 in the morning and it sucks. >> Okay. >> Um, but the schedules work. So [snorts and clears throat] >> So you wake up at 4:15, wake her asleep, but she's lying down, >> right? >> And you know, I get the rest of my stuff. I leave. Um, I always text Charles when I get to work, even though I know I'm not going to get a text message from him right away, but I always let him know that I'm at work. Um, and just do my normal thing at work. Um, typic on a normal day, he would text me when he'd wake up, [clears throat] >> okay? >> Which would be about 9:30ish. >> Um, anywhere between 9 and 10:00, we'll say. Um, and then I would talk to him on my lunch, which is at 11:00. And then I wouldn't talk to him again until I got home from work, unless he wanted to tell me something about Avery, just so I knew when I got home. Cuz a lot of times if she got in trouble right before he left, he would call me to be like, "Hey, by the way, when you get home, Avery's in timeout, blah blah, whatever." >> Okay. um kind of >> What about that? What about that Friday? Was there anything significant about that day or >> that Friday? I knew he was supposed to be looking at somebody's car. So, he didn't call me on lunch like normal. >> Okay. >> Um and then he called me right before I was due to leave work, which I leave work at 1:30. >> And then at some point you go home. >> I um within like 5 minutes of getting off the phone, I was going home. >> Okay. So, what time what time did you make it back to to your residence? >> 1:45. >> All right. >> Um, I got in and excuse me. Um, she was standing up and I had my um because the way Charles parked his car, I was blocking my neighbor's driveway, so I needed to wait till he left so I could pull my car, excuse me, my car up some. And um he's like, "Well, she's in timeout. you know, you know how she can be. I was like, well, she's going to stay near the doorway so I can see her. And um so I just moved her into the doorway, left the door open, and just kind of pulled my car up cuz it's not like I went far um so I could see her. And we went in and I was like, "Okay, well, we're done." And you know, tried to kind >> So when you So when you get home, Charles is there. consist of >> she when I got there she was just standing there in the middle of the room >> like your living room. >> Yes. >> Like is she okay? >> Um so and then I moved her so I could move my car down because Avery can be when she doesn't come out. If you don't watch her, she'll sit here and try to >> She stands in the center of the living room area. >> Okay. >> Um so I moved her to the doorway and cuz I hadn't walked in the house yet. Charles was walking out, so I just moved her to the doorway so I could see her. >> Okay. >> Pulled my car up at well out from in front of my neighbor's driveway. Say goodbye to Charles, hug his kids, you know, that good fun stuff. Went in. I was like, "Okay, well, school's getting ready to start. So, how about we start working on, you know, stuff you know how to do." And >> so, let me let me slow you up. So, you get home at rough. >> Actually, supposed to start work at 1:00 in the afternoon. >> Okay. But because I don't get home, I don't get off till 1:30, the boss, his boss told him it's okay, just, you know, as soon as you get there, just clock in. >> Clock in. Okay. Where now, where does he work at? >> He works at FedEx down in uh Mount Zion >> in Kentucky. >> Oh, is that the one near the airport? You're not sure. Okay, that's okay. All right. Time out. Well, I knew he he told me she she was in timeout because he was explaining to her why you don't do that. And I guess she got mouthy. I think I think he said something about how she got mouthy with him or something. So, he just put her in timeout >> and that's stemming from what he called you about that. Okay. All right. I got you. >> Um cuz yeah, he talked to her about it and he said it was like the most uncomfortable thing ever. I'm like, well, >> I I wouldn't know how to handle that either cuz I've never had to do that. So, you get home, it's 1:45. Is it preschool or is she going to go to kindergarten? Okay. >> She was she was supposed to start kindergarten uh actually August 17th. >> Okay. >> So, um you know, I pull out paper and you know, I was like, "Okay, well, spell your name for me." So, she spelled her name. I was like, "Okay." And then I wrote it down. I was like, "Okay, well, write your name this many times." I think it was like 10 times. I not 100% sure, but I think it was like 10 times. So she wrote in about halfway through she just kind of I guess she kind of like got to the point where she didn't want to do it. So she kind of was like playing stupid. >> Okay. Now where were you guys at doing this? >> In the living room. >> Is there a table or a desk or >> um because our kitchen how it's kind of small. So we really don't have a kitchen table in there. So Charles and I eat on the couch. And then she has like a little table that she eats on. So, um, we were over at her little table and like I said, like halfway through it, she was thinking like she would spell her name, but she would forget a letter and then she would do her last name and would add a letter that wasn't in there. So, I'm like, "No." I said, "See how it's set up here?" I said, "That's how you have to do it." And then it got to the point where she would like take the first three letters of her first name and like first three letters of her last name and just I'm like no. So once we got through with all that I was like okay let's take a break cuz she starting to shake and kind of like she was getting frustrated like okay let's just >> How long do you guys work on that? Um, with the breaks and everything, I'm going to say maybe maybe two hours because about quarter after 4, she decided she wanted to go upstairs and lay down. >> Okay. >> So, [clears throat] um, cuz I constantly had to keep taking breaks. Um, so and then it was we're gonna work on numbers and Avery can count all the way up to 50, but she can only write her numbers 1 through 10. >> Okay. >> So, [clears throat] we were like, "Okay, I'm going to we're going to write 1 through 10." And she did one correctly and then she did she wrote two a couple times correctly and then it just kind of got like scribbles. So I was like, "No, you were doing it fine." I said, "But you know, you did it fine, so we're done." So let's move on to three. She did three without her palm. And then four, she was struggling a little bit, so I got behind her and, you know, I took her hand and, you know, I wrote it a couple times with her hand. I was like, "Now, can you do that?" And she did it a couple times. I was like, "All right, so let's move on to five." Well, five, it was the same way. Um, but even after I took her hand and wrote it, she was still, so I was like, "Okay, well, we're done." Um, let's take a break. And so, we took a break and then we came back and we did flash cards. >> Okay. >> We did the alphabet, um, uppercase and lowerase. And then I think we started on the numbers when she started like messing them up and I was like, "Okay, let's take a break." And she was like, "Can I just go lay down?" I'm like, "Sure, whatever." So, I kept her up there until dinner was done. And that was like 600 6:30. And all I did was just make eggs and hash browns. >> So, you had worked. you had gotten home at 1:4 >> 4 with her on the school stuff. >> Okay. [snorts] >> Um and then >> I put her upstairs cuz she has to lay down. >> Okay. >> Um which really isn't normal for her obviously. She never wants to lay down and like she never even she can say she's tired, but she'll she still doesn't want to like lay down and rest. So that was a little odd for me, but I was just like, "Okay, you know, just whatever." >> Frustrated, maybe tired from the the concentrating >> Yeah. the school work. >> So I'm just like, "Okay, you know, we'll go upstairs and, you know, I put her on the bed and um >> and then you made dinner." >> I sat downstairs, watch TV for a little bit, made dinner. >> What time What time is it now? Dinner time. 6:00 and 6:30. >> Okay. >> Like I said, it was just eggs and hash browns, so it was quick and easy. >> Um, and usually >> Now, did she eat with you or >> Yeah, she ate, but it >> she came downstairs and >> I went upstairs and I got her. Um, usually it takes her She loves eggs and hash brown, so it usually only takes her like 20 minutes to eat. But Friday night it took her from 6:30 till about 7:15, 7:30 to eat. >> Okay. which like I said normally isn't like her, especially with eggs. Um, >> is she a good eater? >> Typically, yes. >> Okay. Was there something Was there something unique about Friday night or >> Well, the past the within the past week, two weeks before her incident, um, we had been having problems getting her to eat. You know, we'd give her food. Um, and she may take a couple bites out of it, but she's just like, I don't want to eat. So, you know, it's obviously what's we're not going to sit there and make her eat. She ate a few bites, so get up and whatever. >> Cuz I mean, when I got home, even when I made dinner, put her dinner on the table, her breakfast was still on the table in the bowl. >> What was that? >> Just shredded wheat cereal. >> Shredded wheat. Okay. Um, so I mean Charlie was like, "Yeah, she ate like four pieces that, you know, I was like, you know, we had to go out and, you know, helping her, helping that guy, whatnot. Neighbor wants to go out there." He goes, "So she ate four pieces and I just said whatever." >> So she didn't eat that much Friday. >> No. And um, like I said, we had been having trouble getting her to eat. So >> during the day, it's just okay, you eat, great. If not, whatever. dinner time, she gets me to sit there and eat until it's done. >> So, you made eggs and hash browns. Um, she normally really likes eggs and hash browns. >> Yeah, usually, you know, she wants ketchup on her eggs and hash browns. I mean, she didn't even ask for that, which So, again, it was it's kind of out of the norm, but I just figured, oh, it's one of those things where I just don't want to eat, so I'm not going to. >> So, she gave you a little attitude. >> Yeah. So I'm like and she was trying to say she took like three bites and she was like I'm done. I'm like no you're going to eat. >> So is that is that the control? I guess I'm asking what was your take on that night >> that typically she does it when she gets in trouble >> and she wasn't in trouble. You know what I mean? I mean she was earlier in the day. >> Do you think that was some spill over from her? >> I mean I I I don't know. I mean I wasn't there. I I mean I didn't think about it, but I guess it could be because I pushed her to the point like she got frustrated and then we had to take a break. So, I mean I guess it could be, but I really didn't think about it. >> I mean, and that's it sounds pretty intense for a 4-year-old. >> Oh, don't let this little girl is smart. >> Okay. >> She knows, like I said, she can count up to 50. She knows alphabets, upper and lower case. She knows how to spell her name. She knows shapes, colors. >> So, she's proven all this to you guys. Um, honestly, I think it might have been a little of both because we had we kind of slacked off on working on it because it was something we kind of did every day. >> Okay. >> And we kind of just slacked off on it and then it was just like all at once, I guess. I was just like, we're going to do this. >> Okay. Caught her off guard a little bit maybe. >> Yeah. Work. And then it was like, oh well, you were making me do this, so now I'm not going to eat. and she knows that at least with dinner time, especially since she's not been eating that good, that she has no choice but to sit down and eat and I don't care how long it's going to take. >> Okay. >> That's just how it is and you're going to do it. So, um, >> does she recognize that that pushes your buttons a little bit? Is that >> I think she does cuz she can get to a point like if she gets in trouble, she'll get to a point and she'll look at me and Charles and I hate you. I don't love you. I'm doing this stuff on purpose. They get taken away and blah blah blah. You know, all kinds of stuff. So, it's which it kills me out of a four-year-old because usually you don't hear that until they're teenagers. [gasps] >> That's fair. >> So, fair. >> She she definitely knew how to push buttons. >> Okay. >> But that's one thing I was, you know, with a therapist going cuz the therapist not only helped Avery, you know, she kind of just, you know, helped me know how to deal with it. And it was just basically, okay, well that's that's okay that you feel that way. You know, you're mad right now and that's fine. But >> so Friday, um she doesn't want to eat. Um you are she finish her meal or do you give up on her? What? >> No, she um she finished it. Like I said, it took her an hour. >> So now it's 7:30ish. Okay. And because I have to get up and go to school in the morning, plus being up at 4:15 in the morning, >> you gota be exhausted. >> Oh, yeah. >> Jeez. >> So, it's okay, let's go upstairs, it's bedtime, you know, go potty before you go to bed. >> Okay. >> Um, >> so that's the the the pre I call it. So, help help me understand what happened that night. >> Friday, we went upstairs, told her to go to the bathroom before. >> Okay. Um cuz if I don't tell her, she won't go and then that'll be her excuse on why she peed on herself is because I didn't go before I went to bed. >> Okay. >> So, I make her go. Um I didn't make her brush her teeth. >> Okay. >> Didn't make her brush her teeth. Um she had when she went to bed, she had on a t-shirt and underwear. >> Okay. Is that typically what she wears? Usually a lot of times I'll just let her sleep in like her panties just because I haven't went out and bought summer jammies. >> Okay. Is it is it hot inside the residence or what? >> Um typically yes, but Friday it was raining so when it rains it kind of it kind of gets cool. >> So that and she's got the ceiling fan and then she's got a little box fan in her room. >> Okay. >> So typically it's it's not too bad. >> So Friday was comfortable. It was comfortable. Um cuz usually when it if it's not comfortable, I make her sleep with pants on. >> Yeah. I mean I Yeah, you're right. Friday that Friday that was Yeah. Okay. >> So I was like, "Okay, t-shirt and panties, you know, that's fine. Whatever." Um and I laid her down. >> Okay. >> I don't know who that is. Um so I laid her down. Now, does she have her own bed or >> Um, yes. There's two beds in there. One for her, one for my oldest daughter. Um, but she wasn't sleeping on her bed cuz she came back from one a visit with one of the grandparents. >> Okay. >> And she had bed bugs. >> So, >> your your daughter had bed bugs? >> Yeah, it was all over her. So, I still had her old toddler bed. Okay. >> Well, it wasn't put together, but I have the mattress. So, I just laid the mattress on the floor in between the two beds. >> Okay. Okay. later on that um gave her hugs, kisses, you know, told her I loved her, see her I would see her later. I never would say I'd see her in the morning because I would never see her in the morning, >> right? >> Um >> and everything was fine when you laid her down. >> Everything was fine. Um I went downstairs to go get me some milk so I could take my prenatal vitamin. went to the restroom, got myself ready for bed, turned on my TV, and >> So now you're back in your bedroom, like the master bedroom. Yeah. >> So you're watching TV. Okay. >> And I think I dozed off. >> Do you remember? Do you remember about what in bed? And then >> I'm going to say it was probably 7:45 8:00. >> Is that early for you guys or No, cuz you you're exhausted. You've got to get up so early. We usually go to bed between anywhere between 7:30 and 8:00. >> Okay. >> So, it wasn't anything unusual. >> Does she sleep with a pillow or blankets? >> Um, she never really slept with a pillow. Okay. >> Every time I Well, when she was on her bed, the pillow was always on the floor or at the foot of the bed. So, >> so she would kick it off or bump it off somehow. >> Yeah. So, I never g I did give her a pillow, but I did give her a sheet. >> Okay. Um, so she had a sheet and like I said, I guess I dozed off and cuz next thing I remember is I heard a like a thud or a thump or something, a noise that came through the monitor and it woke me up and I was facing cuz the monitor would be on this side. I was facing this side and I rolled over and kind of jerked and I remember trying to trying to catch a vision >> trying to kind of collect yourself. >> So yeah, I guess I was off and didn't realize it. Um and usually cuz how our upstairs is set up. >> This is where I >> actually brought paper. >> Yeah. No, no. Remember when remember when you gave us permission to go into your house? >> Yeah. Um, >> so >> yeah. Yeah. So we these are the diagrams that we do when we do these kinds of investigations. >> This is my this is the nursery seat and this is our bedroom. We can go around cuz that's our bath. We can go around into her room >> or we could go across. >> So types and how close it is. All we got to do is just voice up a little bit. >> Um is just to yell and for her to be quiet and go to sleep and sit still. But for whatever reason that night, something just told me to get up and go in there. >> Okay. >> And I went in there and before I could say anything, she's like, "I'm hot and I'm thirsty." And her body felt normal temperature. >> Okay. >> And then but the room was cool. Um so I was like, "Okay, let me you know, let's go take your temperature." And by the time cuz this is where everything is. This light was on so I could see to go through. Um I noticed her face was just like really red. >> Okay. >> So that's when I put her in the shower. Well in the bathtub and I sat her down and I >> You're talking about >> right here? Yeah. >> Okay. >> I walked her from here. Well, she walked with me from here. She climbed in the bathtub. >> Okay. >> And I told her to sit down. So she said okay. And I turned on the water cold. took my nozzle off the the hook and was spraying her and I changed the thing to so she could take a drink and I changed it back and spraying her and then next thing I know cuz I'm over the bathtub like this like you would if you're giving your kid back. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I went to adjust my hand so I could have a better grip of her and I put my hand on her chest and as I was laying her down her heart was really fast and by the time she was down it was >> it had stopped. Okay. So, as you were spraying her um >> one from the bathroom, but with my house, service is kind of eh. >> Okay. >> But you would figure even though I didn't have much service, it's emergency call that it would have went through and it didn't. >> Okay. So, you're like in a bad spot for your phone. >> Yes. Times. And then I finally went downstairs and out onto my sidewalk outside and it went through and when I got the lady on there, >> you called 911. I got the lady on there and um I was telling her what happened. She's trying to calm me down so she can understand. Um she's like, "Well, this I need you to go lay her flat." And she goes, "I'm going to talk you through CPR." So, I grabbed her out the bathtub and I laid her on the bath in the doorway right here. >> Okay. >> Um and she told me to put my one hand up under her neck and the one on her forehead to straighten it. um open her mouth, breathe in. Um I know when I was trying to open her mouth, >> okay, >> it was kind of like it was clenched shut. >> Okay. >> Um but she told me to breathe in her mouth two times a minute each time and then do 30 chest compressions. And she wanted me to do the chest compressions or count the chest compressions out loud. >> Um and I did it. I was going on my third round to do the chest compressions when the paramedics came upstairs. Um they picked Avery up off the floor, sat her on my bed, and then um then they picked her back up and walked down downstairs and um where the ambulance was parked, it was kind of like halfway up the street. Okay. >> So, they had to walk halfway [clears throat] up the street to put her in there. >> Okay. >> And then after that, I >> they wouldn't let me in the ambulance. So, I don't know how long. No, on my bed they Okay. In the master. Okay. >> They placed her on this bed, but they didn't do anything. >> Gotcha. >> They sat her down for maybe 30 seconds to a minute. And >> I mean, for example, did did she have a fever? >> I didn't check her. The first time I checked her was when she said she was hot. >> Okay. But that was I'm talking about like >> during the day. >> Did she have a runny nose? >> Um, no. >> Did she have a cough? No. Um >> I mean was she lethargic or was she doing okay? >> She was >> during the day >> she was [clears throat] she was okay. Um >> Okay. >> She [snorts] typically when we worked on school work she liked it. Um >> I'm trying to have too many problems. >> I I I guess I guess what I'm trying to better understand um >> she kind of acted like herself. I guess I mean she >> Well, and and that's what I'm trying to understand is did she hit her head or anything like that during the day? >> Not when she was with me. >> Okay. >> As far as I'm aware, she didn't have any with Charles. I think the last time she decided to throw a tantrum. Actually, this happened two weeks ago within a couple days of each other, which I >> No, but I'm talking about like that Friday. No significant event that day. >> Yes. She didn't say [clears throat] anything about hitting her head. >> Okay. >> Um, yeah. The last time she hit her head was I think maybe a week prior when she got in trouble and she fell out and hit her head on the floor. >> That was a week prior to what what were the circumstances surrounding that fall? >> Um, she got in timeout and she was being made to run and she got to the point where she didn't want to do it. So, she dropped down and threw herself back. And then I know while I was at the store, which I forgot about until just now. >> That's okay. >> Um, >> it [clears throat] was just me and her at store, which I didn't do too much grocery shopping, so I was literally just getting minor. Um, [clears throat] >> no, but I did end up hitting her in the head and knocking her down because she kind of like went out of sight and I had a basket and I kind of turned around. >> Okay. And >> are you talking about like one of the plastic in the grocery? >> And I grabbed her and she fell. >> Yeah. >> Which kind of made me feel like super crap cuz I was like, "Oh my god, for my child." >> Yeah. That was an accident. You're just turning. >> Yeah. Um but those were, like I said, those were like a week before all that happened. >> Okay. So, >> other than that, >> she had a clean bill of injuries. I I mean I [clears throat] don't think she said anything to Charles about not feeling good, but like I said, I know when I went in there to go tell her to lay down and stop moving, >> um that's when she said she was hot. And like I said, she everything, excuse me, everything felt fine except her face and it was just just really warm. >> Okay. >> So, >> I mean, what what is your thought on what happened to her? >> [snorts] >> I've been playing that night over and over and I honestly I don't know. I mean, cuz that thump or thud or whatever it was I heard, that's the biggest mystery to me at all. Cuz I don't know if maybe she decided, "Oh, well, I don't want to go to bed right now." and hit her head or because Tyler mattresses aren't that thick, so it's easy enough to bounce her head back and still hit the ground. >> Okay. >> So, I don't know if that's what I heard. I don't know if I heard her stomping her feet on the floor since she was close enough to the floor that she could have. >> Do you think, excuse [clears throat] me, her death was the result of an injury? She was, as far as I was aware, she was healthy. So, I want to say it was just more of an illness that I didn't know about. >> Okay. >> You think it was like a flu bug that raised her heart or >> I'm not too sure on medical. >> Okay. So, I was I don't >> Did um did the did she have a disease or >> Oh, they told me at the hospital cuz I was concerned that because she was saying she was thirsty and I gave her something to drink and then like right after I started spraying her again, she kind of just went limp after she drank some water. um that my concern was cuz I thought I heard lung or water on her lungs when I was doing the CPR and asked that if there was water and they said [clears throat] they said there was no water on her lungs. Um >> yeah, she definitely didn't dry out. >> They did say that there was abrasions on her lungs, but they told me that it was from doing the chest compression. >> Chest compressions >> since her heart had stopped a total of four times on Friday. >> Okay. >> But that's all I know. So, they didn't give you a whole lot of information. No, that doesn't sound like it. Okay. >> So, I mean, I had questions, you know, cuz I was asking them about her jaw locking up, what could have caused that. Um, and apparently, according to my sister, which I didn't know. Um, cuz my my family is a little I don't want to say screwed up, but in a way it kind of is. Um, I have a legal dad and then I have a biological dad. >> Okay. Mhm. >> So, my sister on my biological dad's side um was telling me that seizures runs in the family and she was telling me or when I was telling her about the jaw and how it was kind of locked up. >> Okay. >> She goes, "Do they think she had a seizure?" I said, "I don't know." I said, "I asked." And >> do you remember talking to Do you remember talking to anybody in particular or >> Um I I don't remember names. I talked to >> What about a doctor? >> Um I talked No, I remember he had an accent. >> Okay. >> Um, he was white and he had an accent. >> Okay. >> I Yeah, I don't remember so many people when >> Yeah. No, I know. Crazy. Stressful. >> Mainly what he talked to me about was just her heart, you know, um, trying to keep it going and the medications and everything. and he was the one that told me about the abrasions. >> Okay. >> Um >> and he attributed that to CPR. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> So, um >> and it was just the two of you guys at home that night. >> Oh, Charles was at work. >> Okay. >> So, it was Yeah, it was just me and it was just me and Avery. Um we had up until I got woke up, it was everything was pretty normal other than the fact instead of her playing, we were working on school work. Right. Right. Yeah. But I mean, as far as her health, she had a clean bill of health. >> Originally just going to take her temperature and [clears throat] um >> when I seen her face, that's what made me concerned cuz I mean, I felt her hot before, but her face was just never so red. >> So, that's kind of what concerned me. I know. >> Actually, she did complain a couple days prior that she wasn't feeling good. Okay. But she was still acting normal where most kids when they don't feel good, they just kind of they're sluggish and they don't >> Yeah, I get it. >> She She said she didn't feel good, but she's she felt normal. She was acting normal, so I didn't think anything of it. >> Right. Right. >> Um but >> well, here here's what here here's what I've and this is going to be something that I want you to understand. Okay. Here here's what I've learned um since we spoke last. Okay. Um so the medical doctors they are telling me have you ever heard a phrase or >> I know what he means that it [clears throat] has to refer to blood. I do know that but it's abnormal. I don't >> Well, here here's here's what they're telling me. Okay. Um they are explaining to me um that she suffered um a significant blunt force trauma to her head. Okay. Um she was struck or she was slammed. I'll be right back in with you. Okay. Got any questions for me? All right, hang in there. All >> [snorts] >> right, Brandy. Here's uh here's what's going on. Okay. Um this is Detective Kelly. Okay. based on my investigation, okay, which included, you know, your interview and and us going to the house and the autopsy. Okay, we're charging you. You understand that? Okay. Um, is there anything that you're unclear on or you want explanation on or is there something I can do to >> No, attorney. >> Help facilitate it. Okay, that's fine. All right. [snorts] What I'd like for you to do is um have you stand up. Okay. Kelly's hand. She's How long are How far along are you again? I'm sorry. >> Seven more. >> Okay. Just leave that out. >> Yeah. Out of your pocket. We're going to take it out anyway. >> There you go. There you are. >> Turn around for me. You're How far? 7 months. [snorts] >> You don't have a key on you, do you? To keep these from getting any tighter. >> Um I can Well, you know what? I I don't right now, but I can use one. So, >> why don't you stand up for me a little bit and spread your legs in front for me. Do you have anything else in your pockets anywhere? >> I just have my card. >> Okay, I'm going to grab that out. Anything that's going to poke me or stick me? >> No. >> Anything you shouldn't have anywhere? No. >> Okay. You wearing a bra? >> Okay. Anything else? Anywhere in these little pockets? No. >> Medication? >> No. That about this pocket real quick. You going to our doctor's care for your pregnancy? >> I was. What do you mean? >> You was the doctor decided to stop giving me breathing. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um, [clears throat] it's probably more comfortable to to sit down in the in the cushion chair. Just grab a seat for me. Okay. We'll take a few minutes here to get things situated. All right, stay seated for me. [snorts] >> [snorts] [cough] >> I know I'm getting sick, [snorts] man. Thanks for coming down. I really appreciate it. >> [snorts] [snorts] >> Let me [clears throat] get, if you're okay with it, let me get your new address cuz I'd like to keep you more in the loop and stuff like that. Okay. Where are you staying at now? uh with my mom for the time being at 12:21 Beach, [snorts] but soon as I get my money built back up, I'm not going to be there long. >> So, you're staying with your mother? >> Yeah, for right now. >> What's her name? >> Nancy Maze. >> [clears throat] >> Okay, [snorts] >> Charles, what's your uh do you have a new cell phone or a different cell phone or >> It's uh the same number. It's just my one that I did have. I broke it. >> Okay. >> And I'm just using one right now. One of the old ones that was laying around that always act funny. [clears throat] >> Gotcha. Same number, just different device. New device. >> Yes, sir. Let's see here. >> [snorts] >> 365 1110. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. All right. Well, hey, I really appreciate you coming down, Charles. I do. Um, >> I know it's been somewhat of a stressful time for you and we really didn't have the opportunity. Do you remember, if I can take you back um to the night of the incident? Um I know that you were at work. You were working for FedEx at the time. >> Yes, sir. >> I understand. Just so you know, I know that you were there. Okay. Um, I know that you were alerted to something was going on with Avery and from that point, you know, you left work and then you made your way down to the hospital, down to Children's Hospital. >> Yes, sir. >> Um, and that's where you and I we had the occasion to meet up for the first time. You remember that? Yes, sir. >> You remember talking to me? >> A little bit. Um, this has been a very thorough and and a very detailed, exhausting investigation. Okay. Um, I don't know how much information you have about why Avery passed away. Do you have much? >> I don't even know, honestly. I wish I did know. I mean, that's thoughts been running through my head the whole time. You know what actually happened? >> Okay. Well, let me do this if you're okay with it. I'm just trying to better understand um and before you leave here. Okay. [snorts] Um you're going to have a lot more information as to what occurred to your stepdaughter Avery. Okay. Um I'm going to do that for you. I want you to have that information. >> I don't want you to leave here >> and you have questions about any of that. Okay. >> Okay. Cuz that's all I've been doing since, you know, what [clears throat] happened. I couldn't wrap my head around it at all. >> I appreciate that. I I do. I I understand how >> [snorts] >> um how stressful the event was. Um I understand how potentially traumatic it can be. Um how those kinds of things, the pressure, the stress, what those kinds of things can do to your mind, do to your body, do to your emotions. I get all that. Okay. >> Yeah. I figured that out kind of the hard way. I've seen my body's been breaking down because I really ain't been getting much sleep and >> Okay, >> just always doing something to keep myself occupied. >> Fair enough. I understand. Um, [snorts] if you're okay with this, um, what I'm trying to understand is again, like I said, I know what happened. Okay, I've got the medical part of it. I'm trying to better understand what was going on in your household before all this stuff happened on Friday night. I'm trying to better understand your relationship to your wife Britney. Your relationship to Britney's daughter Avery, your stepdaughter. Um, if my recollection serves me correctly, you told me that you had been with Britney since June of this last year. You guys >> No, we've been together. You guys were legally married, I guess, sometime in June. >> Yes, sir. >> Is that Is that >> Yes, sir. >> Right. And then you guys had been together before that for a period of time for about a year or so. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You okay? >> I think I'm coming drink. >> I think I'm coming down with a cold. >> Okay. Um, [snorts] so when when did you guys move into the house together as as a family unit, if you will? >> Uh, July of last year. either the end of June, beginning of July, somewhere in there. >> So almost a full year before you and Britney actually got married. >> Yes. >> Um, so were you living at the address on Beach Avenue or were you at a different location? >> No, I was living there. >> Okay. >> We were living together. >> So for the record, [cough] 1232 Beach Avenue. >> Yes, sir. >> So that's that's a house that you guys all three of you were living in together. Yes sir. >> And that was sometime June July um of 2015. >> Yes sir. >> Okay. Um so help help me understand your role um as the boyfriend slst stepfather um regarding u regarding Avery. Does that make sense to you? Were you were you looking after her on a daily basis? >> Uh if so what were your responsibilities? Um, I know you guys, you and Britney [clears throat] did what I call [snorts] like the tag team. You worked certain shifts. She worked certain shifts. While you were at work, Britney would care for Avery. While Britney was at work, you would care for Avery. I I understand some of that. Can you help me better understand it in greater detail? >> I just recently started watching Avery. >> Okay. reason >> uh probably about a month. >> Okay. A month before she passed away. >> Yeah, possibly. Maybe a little longer. Not much. Cuz she was going to daycare. >> Okay. >> Uh >> do you remember when she stopped going to daycare? >> Uh no sir, I don't I couldn't tell you the exact day. >> Well, let me ask when [clears throat] you started watching her roughly [snorts] a month before she passed away. Um, was that the reason because she was no longer going to daycare? >> Yeah, because we couldn't afford to pay for it. >> Okay. >> So, she was in daycare for that entire time you were together. >> Yes, sir. >> Um, except for that month before. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> Okay. Because they started charging us and we couldn't afford it at that time because we both thought the daycare idea [clears throat] was a good idea for her to get interaction with other kids. to help Avery socialize better, I guess. >> Yeah, because she wasn't very socialable with other people. >> Okay. >> Um, [clears throat] so again, help help me understand. Give give me um give me a typical day, if you will, where you are in charge of Avery. Uh, typical day when I was in charge with her, normally I would wake up always early in the morning, say about 6, 7, wait for her to get up out of her bed, come get me. >> Uh, it was the thing that we had for her to walk through that little hallway to come in and get us cuz we didn't want her to fall down the steps. So, we made her come through that little hallway, >> okay? >> To come get us whenever she got up. >> Normally, we'd go downstairs, see what she wanted to eat. depending on what it [snorts] was is what I would make her. And after she got done eating, she would always go in her little room in there and play. You know, every once in a while, I would go in there and see if she want wouldn't let me play with her, but always got turned down. It kind of >> It sucked. I really didn't get to play with her much. That's why I always tried to take her fishing every Saturday. That was mine and her time really. Okay. She I don't know if it's it was like a real good bonding thing with me and her. >> Now, did you guys go fishing then? You said try to take her fishing. Did you actually take her fishing or >> Yes. Yes. And I mean she enjoyed it so much. The first time I ever took them, they really loved it. >> Okay. >> You know, and that was mine and her thing every Saturday I would make a point no matter how tired I was, get her out there just to fish. Where would you guys go? >> Down for the little Miami by the airport. >> Okay. >> All right. And you guys would just fish from shore. >> Yep. >> All right. You guys just spend the morning out there or the afternoon out there? I guess. >> Normally the morning until about probably about 1:00. >> Okay. She enjoyed doing that. >> Yes, definitely. Uh I wish I actually still had my other phone. I could show you a video. I mean, I I didn't get my phone in time to actually record it all, but I did get a little bit of it. her catching her first fish on her own and that, you know, I mean, I don't know if you have kids that you take fishing, but seeing her face and expressions the first time she done that herself, there's no words [music] that can explain it. >> Sure, I understand. Yeah, I get that. [clears throat] >> I understand that. So, that was something special that you and Avery would do together. Um, fishing on Saturday mornings. >> You would always look forward to that. I mean, honestly, I don't even I don't even want to go fishing with it because of it, >> right? It's got you the upside. >> Yeah. I mean, cuz if I do get the car back from you, all that gear that's in the back of it, I'm probably going to end up just throwing it out. >> Okay. Okay. Um Well, I'm sorry for that. Um I really am. Um, again, like I said, I know this isn't easy for you, but I really want to address a couple things. I just want to [snorts] make sure that I completely understand everything that's going on here. So, um, kind of going back to, you know, a typical regular day where you're in charge. It was my understanding that [snorts] Britney was working at Home Depot. >> Yes, sir. >> And she would get up really early. >> Yes. >> And I'm talking like 4:30 a.m. early. uh like 4:00, I think, to get ready. >> Do you do you remember when she had to be at work? >> I know they started at 5. >> Okay. 5:00 a.m. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, she would get up early, prepare herself for work, and then end up going to work, leaving you and Avery in the house. >> Yes, sir. >> Is that right? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Um, so on a typical work day for Britney, um, I'm sure you didn't get up at 4:00 a.m. and start your day. >> No. >> Because you had to go to work later that night, >> correct? >> Yeah. And I usually don't get home until about 1:30 or 2 when I was working at FedEx. >> A.M. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, kind of walk me through that that typical day with Britney working and with you being the caregiver of Avery. >> Like I was saying, you know, I usually have about 6 or 7. Wait for her to come in to get us, >> you know. And >> what time would she typically wake up? >> Uh there's times where she'll just lay in there. She'll get up about 8:00 and just kind of lay in there. >> So you can hear her. >> Yeah. Because >> But she would still be in bed. We had a little monitor that I would, you know, that way we can keep an eye on her that was in there. >> Uh, but most of the time it was usually around 900 9:30 she would get up and come get us, you know, >> which for her that was kind of normal from what I've seen. >> Okay. >> Uh except for when she was going to the daycare, you know, she would get up when Britney got up and Britney would take her to the daycare. >> Okay. Uh, and then after that, you know, like I said, we'd go downstairs. I'd ask her what she wanted to eat, depending on what it was. It'd be what I'd make her, she'd go in that one little room, play. And about 12, 12:30 maybe. I always go in there about that time somewhere and ask her if she's hungry because she hasn't came out and told me anything. >> Okay. You know, we was trying to get her in the habit of letting us know when she did need something when she was hungry because she wouldn't do that. >> Now, [clears throat] would she communicate with Britney and not you? >> No. >> Or >> neither one of us. >> Neither one of us on the weekends. We'd always have to approach her and ask her, you know, and if she said no, you know, I would still make her something anyways and tell her, you know, eat a little bit of it if you want to go back to play, you know. >> So, what would be like a typical breakfast? >> Uh, for her, normally it's just dry cereal. I don't know why, but that's what she would always want, just cereal. Every once in a while she would want me to make her eggs with cheese on them because that's the way she liked them, >> right? >> Um sometimes she would want ketchup. I just got her to try it. She's never had it before until she met me. There's a lot of things that she hasn't tried that you know I always told her and explained to her, you know, you don't know if you like it until you try. >> Sure. you know, and then she started to do that stuff when I'd offered to her and if she didn't like it, she would tell me and I, okay, you don't have to eat it. >> Okay. >> Um, but yeah, I mean, a lunch, depending if she told me if she was hungry or not. If she was hungry, I would actually make her something decent, you know, lunchwise. But if she didn't tell me she was hungry, I'd make at least a grilled cheese sandwich for her and have her take a few bites of it at least before I let her out to play again. And so she would [snorts] the days Britney went to work or you were in charge um you would get up between 6:00 and 7. Um Avery would get up 8 9:00. >> Yes. >> Something like that. Um eventually she would make her way into you and then you would give her like a like a bowl of cereal, dry cereal. That's what she preferred. Um and then she would play for a little bit. Um you talked about like in this other room or Yeah. Does she have a playroom? >> Definitely. That front room that was there that was all hers. >> Was that the room with all the videos? She had uh like CDs and DVDs on the floor. >> No. No. >> This was downstairs with all the toys. That was in that front room. That was all Avery's >> toy room. >> That was her play area. >> Yep. It was all hers for her to do whatever. >> What sorts of things would she do? >> Uh we mean t >> t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t typically how would she play? >> Normally when I catch her in there, she's usually just sitting on the floor with this little white dog. Uh to me, I think the thing was broken, but she loved it. You would say something to it and it would it would try to repeat what you're saying. It's like one of those things, but it would always mumble itself. I'd always catch her here playing with that thing >> and >> so she was kind of seated playing with little stuffed animals and little dogs and things like that. >> Yeah. Sometimes she would get up on the little learning decks that we bought her, you know, for uh when we first got it for her, she burnt it out. >> She what? >> She burned it out. Like she was constantly on it. I guess she got burned out of it and started to go put back to play with other stuff that she used to have. >> So it was like a desk or something. It was a uh [sighs] what is that the name of that place? I want to say IvyTech or something like that. >> Okay. Yeah. I'm not familiar with it. I'm sorry. IvyTech. >> It's something like Leaprog. >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. I know. I know what a Leaprog is. >> Yeah. It was a a little desk had a stool. It had these little sheets that you can put inside of it and it would teach you, you know, numbers, ABCs, uh cars, and flip it over and stuff like that. It was like back and front on each sheet. >> Okay. And if you raised it up, it was a chalkboard underneath of it. >> So it was essentially a uh a learning device. >> Yes. >> Disguised as a toy kind of a thing, right? >> Yes. And that's what I like to buy. I mean, I do that for my nieces and nephews, too. I'll go out and buy stuff like that for them, and they'll play with it for hours. >> Now, did she ever go outdoors and swing and ride bikes and scooters and things like that, or was she more of an indoor kid? We tried to go out and ride a bike one time and she wasn't having it. >> Okay. >> The only outdoor thing that I could get her to do was go fishing. >> Fish. >> I don't know if it's because maybe she was just sitting there in a chair. >> Okay. >> Or what it was, >> but that was pretty much the only outdoor thing I could really get her to do and like. >> Okay. Um, now I remember you guys telling me I think you have a dog or had a dog. >> Yes. >> What kind of dog was that? >> Uh, she's a mixed dog. Okay. >> She's a pitbull boxer mix, but >> friendly to Avery. >> Friendly to everybody. It doesn't matter who you are. >> Were there ever any occasions where the dog and Avery got into it or never >> did the dog ever hurt Avery? >> No. >> If that dog would have hurt Avery, that dog would be a dead dog. >> Okay. Okay. >> I hate to say it like that. >> No, I understand. No, I I feel the same way. I >> And I would have been the one to do it myself right there on the spot. I mean >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just wanted to make sure there was uh you know, we didn't have some kind of an unreported incident involving your your family dog. >> No, definitely not. Anybody even your receptionist down there could walk up to my dog. If anything, she's going to run away. [laughter] I don't know why. >> Not much of a guard dog. >> No, you could break into my house and she's going to run and hide. >> Gotcha. Okay. So, it sounds like Avery preferred to be indoors. Um she preferred to play with the learning toy. She preferred to play with like the little dog, the stuffed animal that >> you had the broken voice box or whatever. >> Yeah. Whatever was inside of it for it to make >> Did she do dress up or did she do princess or any of those kinds of things? >> Nope. >> Okay. So, when you guys put her in bed at night in the evenings, how was she dressed in pajamas or would she go to bed in street clothes or >> um >> or did she wear big t-shirt or >> normally Britney would put her in a t-shirt? At >> least that's what she usually comes in and gets me. I don't know what she has to put to bed in. >> Well, you know what? That's a perfect way to How do you remember her getting you? How was she dressed when she would come in in the morning? Uh on that morning she came in and all she had on was a yellow t-shirt. >> Okay. Okay. No underwear, no pants. >> She had underwear on. >> Okay. So she would just wear >> a t-shirt and then her underpants. >> Yeah. Normally that's what it is. Okay. >> Because it's even though we had the air conditioner up there, it still stayed warm. >> Okay. >> So, you know, I didn't prefer her to sleep like that. It wasn't my choice. But for the sake, the practical sake of trying to stay cool so you could fall asleep. >> Yeah. >> Okay, I understand. Okay. >> Because I know she did have problems falling asleep. They did have her on the uh what is that stuff called? >> Melan melatonin, I think. >> Melatonin. >> Okay. >> It's a sleep aid. >> Yeah. >> Now, what do what do you know about I'm glad you brought that up. What do you know about um her and and having these sleeping issues? I'll call them sleeping issues. What What do you know about that? >> I've known I mean sometimes when I've come home from from working from FedEx, I would see her looking out the window, I guess, because she would hear my car pull up. >> Okay. >> I would never say nothing to her about it, you know, cuz I always figured I woke her up. >> Gotcha. But I started to notice, you know, like on the weekends sometimes I would still be up because of the long hours I work anyways. And sometimes I would hear her up there messing around kind of late in the night [music] before I even went to bed because I don't go up there right away when they do. So I don't disturb them. >> Yeah, I understand. >> So you get off work, you stay downstairs, try to decompress probably a little bit before you lay down. >> Yeah. >> Try not to disturb Britney and Yeah. Okay. >> So, on occasion, you would actually see her peeking out the window as you pulled into the house. >> Yeah. >> What the What do you know about her having to be on melatonin or I'm assuming you're saying she was prescribed melatonin by a doctor or >> Yes. Yes. >> What information can you give me about that? Uh, all I know is they they think that she was having sleep problems, that she might have had insomnia or something. I >> I'm not too sure. >> How do you know that? >> Um, that's what Britney was telling me. >> Okay. >> Because she's the one that takes her to all those places. >> So, you were never at the doctor's. >> No. >> With Britney when they were prescri Okay. Okay. >> And I don't think it was a doctor. I could be wrong. >> Okay. It might have been through the >> the therapist. Maybe >> not the therapist >> through Beachers. >> I think so. >> Okay. >> I could be wrong. >> But you do know you were aware of her taking melatonin to help her fall asleep. >> Yeah. Because I just happened to see this bottle on the counter, you know, on one weekend. I'm like, "What the heck is this?" >> Okay. And Britney told me, you know, to help her go to sleep, but it didn't really work from what I could see. >> Okay. Um, were you aware of other medications Avery was taking? >> It was an anxiety pill that she was taking. I don't know what it's called. >> Okay. >> It was a uh little white pill, probably about that big. You're supposed to break it in quarters and give it to her twice a day. >> So, I was making sure I was giving that to her. Okay. So, you actually would administer that to her? >> Just a quarter of it. Yeah. >> Okay. Was it like a round tablet? >> Uh, kind of oval. >> Okay. >> And I had to break it in quarters. I would always break it in half, fill one half in, then break the other half and put the half that we're not using on top of the lid. >> So, how would you how would you administer that to Angry? >> She would just take it with no problem. I >> swallow it whole like >> Yeah. >> with water or just >> just swallow it. I I that's the first kid I've ever really seen that takes medicine like that. >> Okay. >> So, would you administer that um daily while Britney was working? Was that part of your routine? >> Once every morning. Yeah. Okay. >> It was for that first period of time when she first got it. Uh but and that's cuz Britney was trying to get her help. >> Okay. >> And they didn't Let's see. What did she say? They didn't want to put her on um what is that? Um whatever the people with ADD take. >> I don't know what it's called. >> Uh >> so some other kind of medication. >> Yeah. But they felt >> they wanted to avoid putting her >> Yeah. Because they felt she was too young. >> Okay. So I I really don't know the whole case with that. >> All right. Because you were not there with Britney at the doctors when they prescribed. >> Yeah. Cuz normally Avery would always have to go to doctors by the time I already had to leave to go to my job. >> Okay. >> So >> um So you don't remember the name of the medication, but you you remember the medication being some sort of an anti-anxiety medication. Yeah, that's what I was. >> And then you would administer um >> just a quarter. >> A quarter of it or a half? >> Quarter. >> A quarter of it. >> Yeah. It was a whole one that was probably about that big and we would have to break it in half and then break it in half again. >> So would you administer two of those or would you just >> just what? >> I would just give her the quarter. >> What time would you do that? >> Um after she ate breakfast. Okay. I always wanted her to have something on her stomach first before she took it. >> And she would just pop it right down. Huh. >> Yeah. Like I said, it's the first kid I've ever seen really take medicine with no problem. >> Okay. >> With like with my other two boys, it was always fighting with them to get them to take anything. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um do you remember when they started the melatonin and the anti-anxiety medication? >> I know the melatonin >> roughly. I mean, you don't >> The melatonin was before the anxiety medication. Okay. [clears throat] >> Uh we did that for probably about 2 3 months. >> Okay. >> And we seen it wasn't working. >> So we took her off of it >> cuz we I did some research and so did Britney and noticed that the melatonin does cause a lot of liver damage. >> Okay. >> And we didn't want that. And the it's probably about How long did it take her to go see that? I was like, maybe a month after she got done taking taken the melatonin, she was on the anxiety stuff. >> Okay. Now, do you know I know you're not sure on the melatonin. Do you know who the doctor was or the therapist was that prescribed the the other medication? >> Whoever the psychiatrist I think that's who it came from was a psychiatrist at Big Jakers. I'm not sure. Okay. >> It was either that or the counselor there. All right. Um, >> why did they prescribe that medication? >> Which one? >> The anti-anxiety. >> The anxiety. >> They said that she was showing a bit of anxiety issues. >> Okay. >> I don't know. What >> did did you see her exhibit anything unusual that >> I don't >> led you to believe she needed to be medicated? >> Um, maybe the attention disorder. >> Okay. >> Can you give me help me understand that? I see I'm trying to you were there [clears throat] with her. You were living with her. I'm trying to understand um what you guys were were seeing and and and living with. Does that make sense to you? >> Yeah. I mean, when we first me when me and Britney first actually started living together, that's when I started to notice, you know, some things that Avery was doing that I didn't like. >> For example, >> um when she got mad, okay, >> uh she would always hide like at night and pull her hair out. Okay. >> Like she would always do it at the bottom so we couldn't see it. But you know when I'd go in a room to vacuum or something, I would always see this hair just around >> like clumps of hair like that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Did you Did you ever see her pull the hair out of her head? >> Uh once. Yes. And that was Let's see. I want to say I know it was last year. It was either September or after um like I freaked out bad on this occasion. I did not know what to do besides hold her. >> Okay. >> And I ended up with a busted nose cuz she was really really angry and upset. And that's when I told Britney something has got to be done with this little girl. there is something wrong with her cuz she was standing in the corner. She started beating her head on the wall and just like throwing herself down and and I went over and I grabbed her like this to hold on to her. I mean, I did leave a little marks, you know, on her arms and I told him that, you know, but it's like, what do you want me to do? Continue to let her do that to herself? Do do you remember the reason for her having this outburst? >> Uh I think it was because she was starting to steal stuff from the daycare. >> Avery. >> Yes. Yeah. And then you know it took us a while to get her to learn that taking things from the daycare wasn't right. >> Okay. >> But once she caught on, she caught on. She did take a while to catch on to things. >> So, she was stealing like what? Like little toys or something or >> Yeah, here and there and stuff like that. >> All right. So, you confronted her about stealing and then that's when she got upset. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. Um, >> tell her >> is that when she pulled you saw her pull her hair out or >> That was the first time I ever seen her do anything like that and I had no clue what to do. I mean, I didn't know if I actually did the right thing by holding her like that or I I mean, I don't know. It's the first situation I've ever had to be in like that. I've never seen any child do anything like that. That's when, you know, I told Britney like, "Look, this something has got to be done with her." And from my knowledge, Britney tried from there all the way up until then to actually get somebody to listen to her. Um, a neighbor of mine told me that they had they're a uh they used to be a foster family. >> Okay. >> And they had a foster child that acted just like Avery with like the hair pulling and stuff only when she got mad. >> Okay. >> And when they took her to the doctor, the doctors uh oh heck admitted her into a uh psychiatric ward. Okay. >> And they they said there was some kind of chemical imbalance in her brain. It kept her [clears throat] heavily medicated, you know. Is that what I would have actually wanted for Avery? No, definitely not. Cuz she would not have had a normal childhood, you know, cuz they had her on some kind of tranquilizer that my neighbor said it was some kind of tranquilizer. Made her just >> right groggy and out of it >> like dead basically, [clears throat] you know, just a zombie, right? and that I I couldn't see a kid do that, you know, that's not what a kid should be doing. >> So, was she okay otherwise or was this a daily thing or was it only when you would challenge her and try to discipline her? >> Yeah, pretty much. You know, when she got mad at us for doing something that she wasn't supposed to and we tell her, you know, hey, just go sit, you know, time out or whatever. And I guess maybe she didn't feel like it was wrong. as why she got mad. Normally, if she knows it was wrong, she wouldn't get mad about it. >> Okay. >> So, I I don't really know what her thoughts were. We've always tried I've at least I have uh always talk try to talk to her and find out, you know, what's the reasons for doing this stuff and I've always got told it because she got mad is what she's always told me. And I don't >> So, she threw a little tantrum. >> Yeah. >> Right. She didn't get her way. >> I guess that's what you would call it. I I don't know what to call that. >> A temper tantrum, maybe. Right. Cuz she's angry. >> Yeah. >> Kind of falling down on the floor and >> kicking and slamming and carrying on, right? >> Yeah. >> She's four. >> Yeah. But the hair pulling, you know, this is something I don't know what to call that. >> Okay. >> And >> so, um, [snorts] there was that first incident for you which alarmed you. Um, and your words to Britney were basically, hey, look, we need to we need to figure this out. We need to do something about that. >> Yes. >> And then that incident prompted the doctor's visit or the therapist's visit. And then >> she was already going when I first met Britney, she was already going to a counselor. >> Okay. >> Uh, let me think. It's been a while. I think her name was Susan. So, can't think of her last name. Susan, [sighs] >> I know it was up in Clifton, but I don't know exactly where. I have taken Britney there and dropping her off once. Uh yeah, her I think her first name was Susan. I could be wrong. >> Okay. But yeah, when me and Britney met together the other, [clears throat] they were seeing that counselor first and Britney felt like uh they were just doing repetitive things with Avery and not >> Do you know why they were going to that counselor? >> No. >> Okay. >> Um I didn't even know about Avery's incident, you know, her first one that she had. Okay. >> Until after the fact of me, Britney, and Avery moved into that house when uh >> Stephanie, I can't think of her name. which is a case worker down there. Told me about it. >> Okay. And what did Stephanie tell you about? >> Um told me the reason that you know Britney had a case is because Avery had a head injury at like 6 months old. >> Okay. >> And that was the first time I ever heard of it. >> What more do you know about that? >> That's that's all I know. >> Well, I mean, do you know any additional details about what happened to Britney over that or? Um, if I'm right, uh, Britney did talk a little bit about it. Okay. >> But, you know, I really didn't pay attention too much. Uh, I want to say she said she did 6 months. Um, that uh, the only reason she pleaded guilty to it was because her lawyer told her that would be the best thing to do at that time. >> Okay. And that uh >> did that concern you? >> She told you that >> a little bit. Yeah. >> Okay. >> You know, I wasn't too sure what to think of. >> Were you married to her at the time or No. >> No. Okay. It's my understanding based on our first conversation that um Britney is currently pregnant with your your child. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. That is true. >> Yes, sir. And that I want my child. >> Definitely. I mean, I understand that. >> That's why I was telling you over the phone, you know, I mean, >> I hate to say it like this, excuse my language, but I feel like a piece of [ __ ] right now because I can't help with my other two children and giving them any kind of financial support. >> I mean, that's why I'm lucky that >> the two boys. >> Yes. >> Now, they are with >> their mother, >> their mother in Indiana. >> One is in Indiana, one is in Mason, Ohio. >> Okay. Um, are they with different women? >> Yes, sir. Okay. So, you have, and forgive me, two sons with two different women, one in Indiana and one in Mason. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Um, and why aren't you involved in your two sons lives with these these two different me and their mothers don't get along? >> Okay. >> That's pretty much why we split because of the person that I am. I'm a workaholic. I I will work all day every day, 24 hours. And they didn't like that, I guess. I I don't know why. >> Okay. >> I guess maybe because I wasn't there to actually spend a whole bunch of time with them. But to me, I was looking as if I'm out here working and busting my butt, I can better you guys better than what I had it when I was younger. >> Okay. So, you're trying to help them financially by being out there working hard. >> Yeah. And I mean, it just it'll work out between us. So, you're having this conversation with Britney. Uh, Britney is telling you that she actually did like a like a prison bit >> I >> for or jail or whatever. >> Yeah. She didn't say exactly what she just said she did 6 months, you know. >> Um, and that was before you guys got married. >> Yeah. >> All this kind of came out. Um, did that concern you? It did a little bit, you know, because I didn't know the whole story. >> But to be honest with you, I think one of the main reasons I didn't go anywhere is cuz I was attached to Avery. She didn't have uh a father figure to look up to, >> you know, and actually I done more for her than my own two boys. Well, and I'm [clears throat] glad you brought that up because that's kind of what what what I'm what I'm hoping for here is today and I want you to look I want you to trust me and believe me on this. Okay? I know you did not hurt Avery. All right? I know that. Um, what I also know is is that the injury that Avery sustained was a significant injury. Okay. It was Go ahead. >> Yeah, I was going to generally ask what what kind of injury was it cuz I still don't know. >> Well, she she received um a significant head injury. Okay. Um, basically it's blunt force trauma to the to the back part of her head. All right. Um, it's consistent with being punched. It's consistent with being kned or kicked. It's consistent with being slammed um against a hard object, a wall, a floor. That's the injury that we are we are talking about. Okay. I know that you cared for Avery. I get that. Um, and that's the reason why I'm kind of hoping I'm counting on you to come in. My my expectation for you today is to be completely honest with me and truthful with me. >> And you know, that's the kind of person I am. I believe that's why a lot of people don't like me because >> okay, >> I'll tell somebody exactly how it is. And then, you know, if they don't like it, I will tell them, hey, you know, I'd rather tell you how it is than you hate me for lying to you and finding out something different. >> Right. Well, you know what? And I you know what? [snorts] I truly appreciate that attribute in people. I I think being honest um you know, we we kind of live in a society where, you know, people really aren't that concerned about being truthful anymore or or so it seems. Okay. Um, I happen to disagree with that. I I like I like knowing the truth. I like understanding the truth so we can kind of work from the truth, you know, so we can kind of fix what's going on from from a truthful standpoint. That make sense? >> And that's what I I like too, you know? I mean, yes, it may hurt me, my feelings or whatever, but at least it's the truth. At least I know, you know, >> somebody lying to me, >> right? Well, what one of the things that one of the things that we spoke about um you know that Friday night, early Saturday or yeah, early Saturday morning was just, you know, the kinds of discipline that you would impose, the kinds of discipline that um Britney would impose upon Avery. [snorts] And I kind I remember this pretty well because I thought it was a little unique. Um, you denied using any kind of corporal punishment at all. And and you understand what the word corporal punishment means. I'm not trying to be rude. >> Kind of. Yes. >> Okay. You don't spank, hit, slap. You don't physically >> cuz I've been through that. >> Discipline Avery. That's what you told me. >> Yeah. Because I've been through that. >> No. And you actually told me that one of the forms of discipline is that you would have her run in place. >> And I think you said for every for every year she is old, you would have her run or jog in place for a minute that she chose. >> Okay. Yeah. Okay. We I would always give her options and let her pick on what she wanted. >> Okay. So, it's fair to say based on that statement that you never hit her or slapped her or kicked her or injured her that way. No. >> Okay. All right. Um, and I appreciate that. I understand that. >> Yeah. because I I went through that stuff when I was a kid and I remembered how it was and I Yeah, [clears throat] I'm going to show you here. Go ahead and grab it. I don't Well, you you need to look at it. Okay. Okay. Do you recognize that photograph? >> No. First time. >> Okay. Well, here here's what I'll tell you about the photograph. Okay. Um, >> it's just hard for me to see anything with a >> Well, here here's the thing, though. All right. You're you're the stepfather. Okay. You've got to you've got to work through the information with me. Okay. >> And that >> and that's that's why you're here. I appreciate that. That's a photograph. I'm just so clear. That's a photograph that I took um of Avery when she was in the intensive care. The doctors, they're all hovered over her. um trying to save her life. Okay. Um take a look at it because the the photograph depicts some significant bruising um that that I saw. That's the reason why I photographed it. Do you also see that? >> Yeah. Okay. Do you have any idea where those bruises would have come from? >> [clears throat] >> you take a look at this one, too. >> What's this one? I >> Okay, it's a photograph of her back and you can see where her spinal column kind of presents itself in the picture. Uh, a little bit kind of half asleep. >> That's okay. >> This is her head. >> Okay. >> That's a C collar. These are all the tubes and everything hooked up to her. That's her spinal cord kind of going down her back. You see it now? >> Okay. Yes. >> Okay. And you see one, two, three, four, five, six bright red bruises that are kind of right above each vertebrae. I can kind of see that since you automatically Yeah. Well, it's pretty clear to me. Um, again, the photograph doesn't necessarily um show it as well as it presented itself when I was there in person. But again, the reason I took the photograph was to document these injuries kind of going down her spinal cord. You see that, right? >> I do since you pointed that out. I mean, like I said, I mean, I can barely see it, but yeah, I see it. >> Okay, grab grab a seat. see for me. [clears throat] >> Another photograph. Um, [snorts] right above her private area. Um, you see that? >> Yeah. >> What's that? >> It looks like a bruise wound. >> Mhm. Yeah. Kind of a symmetrical kind of a circular bruise right above that pubic region. Right. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> [clears throat] >> And again, I want you to see these because I'm trying to I'm trying to better understand all these injuries. Okay? >> And that's what I would like to know. >> These are injuries. I I didn't make this up. Okay? These are injuries that presented themselves to me when I went to check on Avery when she was in the intensive care unit. [clears throat] >> These are Hang on. These kinds of injuries, um, I'll be honest with you, you know, I've been doing police work for n well over 21 years, maybe going on 22 years, okay? >> [snorts] >> These injuries are consistent with child abuse. These injuries are consistent with someone assaulting a child. They're not consistent with kids running and falling and getting little boo boos and owies. Okay. Um that's concerning to me. All right. These injuries obviously they're not the reason she's in the ICU, but these are other injuries in addition to the blunt force trauma. Okay. To the back of her head. Um I want I want to know from you. Do you have do you have any knowledge? No, that's what I was going to ask >> as to how she got all these bruises. >> That's what I was getting ready to ask you is, you know, I mean, this stuff was found, but I was never told. I would have liked to have known that, to be honest with you, if I would have seen that before now where Britney was locked up. >> Well, you got to remember that I didn't discover these injuries until after I spoke with you guys, >> well into the morning. Okay, >> that's what I'm, you know, that's what I'm trying to get at. If I would have known about them, to be honest with you, you would probably have me locked up and not really. >> Why do you say that? >> Cuz I'm very protective of children. I probably would have hurt her. >> Okay. >> To be honest, >> so when I show you the photographs >> and >> of your Hang on. When I show you the photographs of your stepdaughter, okay, this is your stepdaughter, four-year-old Avery. >> Definitely. Okay. >> I don't care what no one says. what you're saying is, and I believe you. I believe that you cared for her. I believe that you enjoyed taking her fishing. Um, here here's the thing that what's what's frustrating in all this is she is unfortunately she has passed. Okay? >> She has no voice any longer. You understand what I'm saying? So, what I am hoping for, I'm hoping for people to come to me and and I want them to be truthful with me about all these different things that was going on because my suspicions are that whatever happened that Friday night inside your place, it that wasn't the first time. That wasn't something that was that just kicked off for the very very first time. Okay. Um the bruising that I saw there they were in various parts of her little body. Um and they were also kind of in various stages of healing. They were different colors. Okay, does that make sense to you? Some of them were kind of yellow, some of them were kind of brown, some of them were were bright red like the ones on her back. Um, and now that you understand what I'm telling you, you can see it now. Yeah. It literally, um, it literally goes right down her spinal column. It's, it's like there's a red mark or a red bruise right above each vertebrae. Almost as if somebody grabbed the child and slammed the child down. Okay, I'm not a medical doctor. You know that. I'm just a cop. I'm just a policeman. Okay, but this right here doesn't pass the eye test. You know what I mean by that? >> A reasonable person is not going to look at this little baby and they're not going to say, "Oh yeah, she got this from some accidental, you know, >> I don't know where it came >> injury. Accidental fall." >> Okay. >> I wish I know. These injuries are all to the back of her legs, to the back of her back. The injuries here are all around her little bottom. They're on the back of her legs. She's even got injuries down here on like the backs of her feet, kind of down by her ankles. What you don't know about me is I've got four kids, okay? I've got grown kids and I've got kind of kids all in between. All my kids were active and they're all athletes. They were all kind of running around outdoors. My kids were kind of crazy. All right. And they would fall down. They would get bumps and bruises and little owies, right? My kids never never never looked [snorts] like Avery did. Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, like I said, this is the first time I've seen this stuff. >> So, when you were in charge of Avery, for example, when Britney would go to work and you were left in care of Avery, um, you're saying that you never saw any suspicious bruising on her ever? >> No, sir. Because, you know, if she went to the bathroom or something like that, okay, >> I would that's on her. >> Well, what about bathing the child? >> I wouldn't do that either. I didn't feel comfortable doing that. >> Okay. Why? Why wouldn't you feel comfortable as her stepfather? >> I I don't know. It's just what >> I used to >> That's like I It would I could >> I would have three of my kids naked in the tub supervising them. >> That's like if I had a little girl, I >> bubble baths and toys and music going and Right. >> That's your job. >> Yeah. But that's why Britney would do it though. I mean, even with like my nieces. >> So, what you're telling me? Well, and again, I'm not picking on you, okay? But I want to understand this. This is really important for me to understand, okay? Cuz I got to tell you, it's kind of hard for me to believe that, this [clears throat] beautiful little angel, right? The condition that I found her in that you have no knowledge of any of these bruises. >> No. And I'm being honest with you. That's why I told you if I would have known, you would have had me locked up instead of Britney. >> You do believe me when I'm showing you this, correct? >> Yeah. I mean, I have no choice to because I don't know what's going what went on that night. It ra If I was home that night, whether she did it or she didn't do it, either way it goes, if she would have done that to Avery, I would have spoke up for that, too, regardless of me and Britney's relationship. Okay. >> Cuz children are that important to me. I would do anything for them. >> Even some other man's child. >> Yeah. I do it all the time for little kids on the street that I see. I, you know, if I see him riding down, for example, uh this is way before me and Brandy got together. There was a child outside riding a skateboard. It was kind of broken down. I just bought a brand new one for myself because I used to do it. And as soon as it was broken down, I told him, "Give me a second." Went downstairs, got my new skateboard, and gave it to the young guy and told him, you know, I'd rather see you out doing this than being out here doing things you ain't supposed to be doing. >> I understand what you're saying, but I also understand how people [clears throat] get frustrated sometimes. I mean, you've made it clear that Avery, she was a handful. She was I thought >> and I could understand how you could be exhausted, tired from working >> um and just kind of momentarily lose your cool. >> No, >> I get that. >> No. >> So, you're denying, just so we're clear, cuz I want to be clear, you're denying ever laying a hand on Avery. >> Yeah. >> And you're denying ever having seen any of these injuries on him >> until now? >> Okay. Until now. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Um, did you ever see your wife Britney hit Avery? Spank Avery. Do anything to >> I seen I seen Britney spank her one time. >> Just one time. >> Yeah. Mo cuz most of the time I was always at work, you know, six days a week. >> Here here here's the thing. Okay, look. >> And I'm being honest with you. >> I want you to be straight up honest. >> That's what I'm telling you. I'm being straight up honest with you. I just have a problem with anybody saying, "Well, just one time." >> That's I mean, I have seen I have seen her do it one time. >> Okay. What What did What did she do? >> What did Who do >> What did Britney do this one time? >> She spanked her on the bottom. You know, it was uh pull her pants down and spanked her on her butt. >> Okay. But again, my point But again, my point to you, and I want you to hear me and understand me on this, okay? the condition in which I found Avery's body. Okay, it was she was covered in bruises. And I'll tell you, there were additional things that I couldn't see that they found at autopsy, like more bruising, bruising behind the ears, bruising, you know, like in her hairline, those kinds of things that weren't visible to me as I stood over her. the overall condition of her body. That's it wasn't indicative of just one time she was spanked. You see what I'm saying? >> Yeah. And I don't >> And the reason I'm asking you is because you lived in that house. >> Yeah. And and I'm telling you the truth. I don't know what went on after I left. >> I I couldn't. >> But you came back. See what I'm saying? You would go to work, right? And then you would come back home. >> Yeah. I know. And that's what I'm telling you. I didn't look at that little girl like that. I mean, I had no reason to. You know what I'm saying? >> Look, I mean, >> again, these are the kinds of things that presented themselves. These are the kinds of things that you didn't have to study her her little body to see that she was all dinged up. Does that make sense to you? >> I mean, if it was noticeable, yeah, I would ask her. But I did not see those until now. Look, I'm not saying that you're the one that assaulted her, okay? But if you had knowledge, if you have knowledge, >> hear me out. >> If you have knowledge, direct knowledge of Britney hurting her, I want to know about it, man. >> If I >> Look, you loved Avery. You teared up. You took her fishing. >> Definitely. >> You were probably one of the few bright spots, if you will, in her little life. [snorts] >> I don't know about that. It's probably the other way around. >> Well, here's an opportunity for you to help her in death. >> Okay. If you got knowledge, >> I I really wish I knew. I do. I I swear I wish I really really knew. Like I told you, if I knew exactly what happened. I you don't have to tell me exactly that. That's not what I'm asking. >> I I don't know what happened. >> Did you ever see >> eliminating [snorts] the one time Britney spanked her on her bare bottom? Did you ever see Britney hit her, slap her, push her, injure her in any way? I have seen her push her a few times, but not to push her down or nothing. It's just to kind of get her moving across the street. >> That's not what I'm talking about. >> I'm talking about >> I'm talking about something that would be malicious. Something that would cause injury. >> Okay. >> I'm not talking about pat on the backside and go across the street, sweetheart. That's not what I'm talking about. >> No, that's See, that's what I'm trying to >> A little pat Yeah. A little little pat like that doesn't cause the injuries like this. Okay. I mean, reasonable people, they don't even have to be cops, reasonable people are going to look at her little body and they're going to ask the same questions that I'm asking you. And >> how in the heck how in the heck does the stepfather who not only lives there but actually cares for the child not see any of these injuries? And these injuries, like I said, they were in various states of healing. They just didn't happen during that incident. >> Okay. And I I don't know. Honestly, I do not know. [clears throat] >> You recognize this photograph here? >> Yes. That's Serenity's bed. >> That's Serenity's bed. >> Yes. Okay. [snorts] >> And who is Serenity? >> That's uh Britney's older daughter. >> Does she live with you? >> No, sir. Where does Serenity live? >> Uh with her dad if I'm correct. >> Okay. What about the photograph here? >> Yeah. >> Can you explain to me what that is? >> We uh she came back from a visit. >> Okay. >> I can't remember which. >> Avery. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I can't remember which person she was with. And when she came back, uh we noticed a couple nights later, I did when I was in there vacuuming that there was bed bugs on her bed. So, I had her bed up, sprayed down. I didn't want her to lay on it, >> you know, with the chemicals or whatever. So, I put this one down here for her. >> Okay. >> Because she This one's too tall. I didn't want her to roll out of it. >> Okay. >> They're not the same bed. >> No, these are bunk beds. One, this one is a top, I do believe. Or this one might be the top. One's top, one's the bottom. But we put her on the one that was closer to the ground. Okay. >> Yeah. But yeah, there was bed bugs on her bed and I was trying to get rid of those. >> So you laid >> That's a You treated >> Just so I'm clear, this one's Avery's bed. >> Yes, sir. >> This is the one that had the bed bugs >> that I seen. Yes. >> So you treated her mattress, lifted it up, and treated the mattress with chemicals. >> The mattress and the whole wood. >> Okay. Yes. >> And then you ended up laying the toddler mattress right next to the the bed you treated. >> It wasn't right next to it when I laid it there. So I don't >> Okay. [snorts] Is there any reason why you just didn't put her in the other bed? >> She so she wouldn't fall out of the bed or being taller. I mean, even when I sat on it, um >> I don't [clears throat] know how to say it. My legs weren't bent like this. >> Okay. They were more, you know, like this kind of. That bed was up a lot higher and I didn't want her to fall out of bed. Okay. >> So, it really had less to do with the chemicals and it had more to do with the fact that you didn't want her on a higher bed, but it hurt falling out. >> Okay. Show you another photograph here. [snorts] >> You recognize that? No, sir. You know where it's at? >> It looks like it's in my bathroom. >> Okay. What do you see in the photograph? >> Uh, her clothes in the sink. >> Okay. [clears throat] >> Some makeup, hair. >> Whose clothes? >> Uh, looks like Avery's clothes. >> Okay. >> And if you look more closely, pay attention to the picture. You can look at it. It's okay. What do you see on top of the clothing? I'm not sure what that is. [snorts] What is that? I'm not sure what that is. I I mean, I see something black up there. Well, let me show you a second photograph also from your bathroom. >> [snorts] >> Okay, that's our dog thing that I was using for the dog for when she was painting the house. >> Okay. What's help me understand the dog thing? >> It's um a training thing that I seen. >> Okay. >> You know, you take some paper, roll it up, put a little tape on it, and smack them on the nose with it if they're doing something bad. >> Okay. >> It's something. >> So, you you made that thing? >> Yes, sir. I'm not going to deny it. >> Well, please Yeah, please don't. I mean, it's it's okay. I want to know the I want to know the truth. >> Oh, yeah. That was for a dog. I seen it on a video on the internet. >> Okay. >> You know, it's help train dogs if you smack them on the nose. >> Okay. >> With it a little bit and it was working. >> Okay. >> But yeah, I that's what that was. >> So, go back to this photograph here. What do you see right right in there? What was that? >> It said writing here. Yeah. >> Okay. It looks like tape. >> Yeah, duct tape. >> Now, why would it be tape in my sink? >> Well, I was hoping you could help me with that cuz that was the [clears throat] question that I had. >> That's >> on top of >> her clothes. on top of Avery's clothing in your sink. >> My first question though is >> there's duct tape on top of the clothing. Okay. >> Well, the first thought that came to my head is why is Avery's clothes in my sink in the first place? >> Okay. Good question. I have that same question. Do you have any knowledge of any of this here that I'm showing you? >> No. >> Okay. That's why I'm asking you these questions so you could tell me what's going on. >> Why is >> So you recognize So you recognize the clothing articles in the sink as belonging to your stepdaughter Avery. >> They look like it. Yes. Yeah. Okay. They look smaller. >> Okay. They are. >> And I want to know why they're in there in first place. Okay. >> I mean >> Well, and directly on top of the clothing items, you're right. It's it's the duct tape. Okay. And I'll tell you this, the [snorts] duct tape that that you see the roll right next to your little dog swatter. Okay. >> Okay. And I know to me to me the naked eye it looks like it's the same tape. Okay. From that from that roll. Okay. If you look if you look closely on the adhesive side of the duct tape, the white side, the adhesive side. Okay. What do you see? I see the little lines on it. >> No, but I'm talking about sticking to the adhesive side of it. >> That's what I'm looking at there. I see it's like little >> Yeah. >> lines. I I don't know. >> Little pink little pink fibers. >> I don't know what that is. >> Okay. Well, again, to me, it looks like little pink fibers. Okay. That I suspect came from that little pink shirt. And then in addition to the little pink fibers, uh there's something else on there, too. >> Oh, see, I didn't see anything pink. This is what I was looking at is the little lines here. >> Okay. What do you think that is? >> I don't know. That's what I'm asking. >> Well, it's it's head hair. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um, do you have any knowledge of that duct tape in the sink on top of her clothing? >> Definitely not. Okay. My dog thing should actually been downstairs. >> Okay. >> Cuz that's where I always kept it cuz we kept our dog in the kitchen. >> Um, so can you >> Well, let me Well, let me let me ask you this. Um, so just so you understand, again, it's not me making this up, right? We have Avery's clothing in the sink and directly on top of her clothing, we have this wadded up ball of used duct tape. Okay. To me, it looked like the pink residue was the same pink as the shirt. And those little lines, as you call them, those little lines, it's it's human head hair. It's not dog hair. It's It's human head hair is what it is. >> And that's what >> Okay. I'm asking you all is >> I'm really really confused on you know why that would be >> in your upstairs bathroom. >> That's why I'm asking you. I don't know either. >> Okay. Um >> I mean because I've never seen any clothes in my life. >> Let me ask let me let me ask you this. So >> what do what do you think? And I know you don't know. You're saying you were at work and you were. I checked. I know that. Okay. Don't uh don't think I didn't. All right. Um, play detector for a second. What do you think you got going on here, man? >> I mean, that doesn't look good, does it? >> No. >> Okay. Tell me why. >> I mean, why would there Why would the clothes be in the sink in the first place? is no is what I'm wondering. >> The clothing was wet. >> Why was it wet? >> Okay. And I mean the duct tape. I mean what do you think? What are you thinking? I mean you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes. >> I mean it was either Honor. >> Okay. >> Or some I don't I mean that would be my first guess. >> Would you ever tape up Avery? >> Hell no. >> Okay. Definitely not. Like I said, that little girl was my world. I would have gave my life for her. >> It's just hard to turn away from things like the bruising. It's hard to turn away from things like the wet clothing and the duct tape on top of the wet clothing and what appears to be the little fibers transferred onto the adhesive side of the duct tape. the little head hair transferred onto the adhesive side of the duct tape. I mean, it's hard for me to even That's shocking. Okay, that is shocking. And then you put all of this together with the fact that she suffered Avery suffered a significant non-ACL [snorts] blow to the back of her head. You're not home. Nobody else is there but Britney and Avery. The doll couldn't have done it, right? No, definitely not. That'd be something new for every >> I mean, I'm just trying to understand. I mean, look, Charles, listen to me. >> If Britney and Avery, if they weren't getting along and things were if things were happening before this tragic evening, I need to know about it. >> I mean, >> it needs to be addressed. I know when I was there on weekends when she was there to even get along. I don't know about when I would left for work or whatever. I couldn't, you know, cuz I was only there for probably 5 10 minutes before I had to shoot off to work during the week. But on the weekends, it seemed like they were okay. >> Well, I mean, is this is this one of those situations where maybe you thought something was going on, but you really didn't want to know about it and you kind of like turned away so you wouldn't be involved in it? >> You mean I mean between Britney and Avery. >> Um, >> it's going to take me a minute cuz I do have an LD problem. That's why sometimes I do ask, you know, what's this or what's that? >> Okay, >> just so you know. But >> will you you stop me at any time, okay? I'm very reasonable. I really am. Okay. Um, I didn't come in here and I didn't pound my fist and I wasn't all crazy and accusatory. I want you to understand that I am trying to understand all of this evidence, all of this information as best I can. >> And that's what I want to know. As you know, I still with the way you guys are, not you guys, but with the way you showed me those pictures. >> Yeah. >> Now, in my head, it makes me think that she does something. >> Okay. >> But I don't know what. I mean, I wish I knew, honestly. I really do. >> I mean, you just you understand the the weird situation that I'm in because >> Yeah. I mean, >> it's Well, hear me out. These are things that I know we have. These are things that these really aren't these are things that are physical in nature. I know I have these things. It's not really a matter of my opinion. You see what I'm saying? I mean, she's bruised all up. I mean, I know medically that the injury she sustained was not from an accident. It wasn't from an illness. She didn't fall ill. Britney's trying to tell me that, you know, everything was fine. And then, you know, in the middle of the night, she wakes up, she's hot, and the child fell ill and and and went into a cardiac arrest. And and what I'm what I'm telling you [clears throat] what I'm telling you is that's a lie. That's not true. I know that's not true. >> Okay. Because yeah, that's the same thing I was getting told and believe me, I was on it every day questioning her about what happened at night. >> So, what what has I'm glad you brought that up. So, um have you had the occasion to talk with Britney since all this? >> I mean, yeah. I keep asking her the same stuff. >> Okay. And so what's Britney telling you? >> The same story over and over that she heard a noise in the, you know, in Avery's room, went in there to check on her and Avery told her she was hot. >> Okay. And she went to take Avery into the bathroom, you know, seen that her face was red, so put her in the shower to cool her off. And then she just stopped. Whatever she meant by just stopped. I I don't know, but I just wish I was there, honestly. >> Um, do you believe her? >> I mean, I tell her I do, but at the same time, I don't. >> Okay. How come? Why not? >> Because I don't know what happened. I'm a person that, you know, if I don't see it, I don't know what to believe. >> Okay. Well, let me slow you for a second. Okay. What if I'm going give you a scenario and I'm not I hope it's not too too simple, but I'm I'm kind of a simple person, okay? I'm a simple guy. I like breaking breaking things down to where I can understand it. So, if a kid got hit by a car, kid ran out into the street, and the kid got run over by a car and had all these traumatic injuries, you know, broken bones, head injury, whatever. Um, and then I brought the kid to you and I said, "Hey, you know, little Jimmy has the flu. What are you going to What are you going to say to me? >> Well, if he got hit by a car. >> But you don't know that. You didn't see it. But you know the injuries. >> I'm going to look at it. I'm going to try to find out what happened. >> Okay. >> Of course. >> And then you find out that he's got broken bones and he's got a a significant head injury and I repeatedly tell you, "No, you just got the flu. What do you think?" You can answer. It's okay. that something happened to him. >> Yeah. >> Other than him being sick. >> Exactly. >> And see that I mean >> see that's what I'm trying to get across to you. I want you to understand this. Okay. >> I mean that's what I you know that's what I was trying to tell you is you know that's what threw me off myself. Her just telling me that all of a sudden she was gone. Like she just there was nothing from her. I don't I don't get it. I don't I don't get the whole thing honestly. Okay. Well, I think you get it. You just don't want to believe it. Okay. You said you've got some issue or whatever with learning. Well, maybe you do, maybe you don't. >> But I know Well, hang on. But I know you are a smart enough man to understand what I'm posing to you. We have your stepdaughter. All right. the victim of a horrendous traumatic uh trauma to her head versus well everything was fine and she just got sick and she was hot and then her heart stopped. I mean you've got Yeah. See I two different things that aren't consistent with each other. >> That's what was throwing me off the whole time. I mean, I that's why I said, you know, if I was I wish I was there to be able to know exactly what happened. Like I told you, it doesn't matter if [cough] it was that or if it was the other one. Either way it goes, you wouldn't know because if she would have just just say for instance, if I was there and I seen her hurt that little girl like that to cause that injury to do that, 911 would have been called on me. >> Okay. >> You know, I mean, I wouldn't hurt I [clears throat] wouldn't hurt her to hurt her, you know. >> Was Britney ever violent with you? >> No. That's what that's what shocks me about this whole thing. The only time we would ever argue is about what to eat if we're going to go out somewhere. >> So your your statement is is that Britney and Avery had a good relationship? >> For as much as I know. Yeah. And you never minus the one time when you saw Britney spank her on her bare bottom. You're telling me that you've never seen Britley Britney, excuse me, hurt Avery, hit Avery, slap Avery, kick Avery. >> No, I mean, unless it was a show, you know what I'm saying? I mean, maybe she was a different person while I wasn't there. >> I mean, is that possible? >> It could be from everything that I've been hearing lately. >> Well, I mean, do do you believe me? I mean, I want do you believe me when I show you these things? >> Yeah. I mean, >> okay, >> that's what I'm saying. I mean, I I want you to understand me that, you know, these are things that I know to be true because I was there. Um, and before that night, I had never met you. Correct. >> No. I mean, >> I don't know Britney. I've never met Britney. Right. I was called there to investigate what happened to Avery. And these are the things that I find and they're just not consistent with the initial information that I got. You know, this is consistent with a little girl that had been physically abused. Like I said, to my knowledge, honestly, I don't know what Britney done when I was gone. I couldn't tell you. But I would never have a problem with letting somebody come in to look at her because um let me think of his name. Case worker. Germaine, I think it is. >> Germaine. Okay. >> Yeah. He's came out several times, you know, and I wouldn't mind him coming out just to check up on Avery. >> Go for it, you know. >> So, your attitude was you had nothing to hide? >> No. >> Okay. And you [clears throat] don't remember ever seeing any suspicious bruising on your stepdaughter? >> No, sir. >> But you're telling me that you would never look at her naked? >> No. >> In the bathtub or while she was using the restroom? >> Definitely not. >> Or things like that? >> Cuz you just you were funny about all that. >> Yep. >> Okay. Okay. [clears throat] Um here here's what I'd like to do. Um, I'd like for you and I to keep communicating with each other. Okay. Um, this is a uh very long process >> about that about the uh the the other side of that family coming over >> Yeah. I'll talk to you about that in a minute. >> All I got to do is just send you a uh the email and you'd be able to see it. There was a lady. I was actually at my house in that home at that time. >> The one on beach. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> When they came up and done it, >> I had a neighbor come down and knock on the door and tell me about it. >> Okay. What What happened? >> Um I was in there playing a video game, you know, just trying to keep my mind off of things. Uh maybe two weeks ago, probably. >> Okay. >> Um there was a lady parked down the street. They watched him pull up right by Evers. Uh, a girl got out of the car and came up and flattened my tire on the driver's side. >> Okay. >> Uh, the neighbor up the street came down and knocked on my door and told me about it and they were gone. I mean, they told me it was a little white four-door car and, you know, gave me a license plate number. >> Did you reported it to the cops? >> I stopped the police officer. Yes. Uh, I went walking to see if I didn't see the little car, you know, and I stopped the officer and I had him come over. It was two of them in an SUV. They didn't really They ran the license plate and, you know, um, >> was it over in district three, I guess. >> As far as I know, yes. >> Beach. >> Yes. As far as I know. >> Okay. And I mean it from the video that I was kind of able to pull up when I went to the library, it looked like a little white Chevy. >> So, how how did you get a video? Did you get a video of the incident or >> from the lady? The lady there was another lady that was parked there and you know, I mean, she was just curious. Yeah. >> So, she cell phone videoed it. >> Yeah. And she was curious on what these people were doing and she sent me the email of it. >> Okay. I couldn't pull it up on my phone. >> No, I got you. Okay. >> I guess cuz the uh >> Well, maybe I'll reach out to district 3 and I'll try to figure that end of it out for you. Um >> I mean, >> what I want to do is I want to be able to be in communication with you. I know that there was some issue with um I don't know, maybe you had a your phone was busted or whatever. I >> Yeah. >> Put a couple calls into you. [clears throat] >> Uh there was some miscommunication apparently on that. >> Sometimes it rings, sometimes it don't. This phone is junk. I'm not going to lie. I mean, texting me probably would probably be a better way. Okay. >> Because it doesn't miss those. >> Well, I'm an old guy. I don't text. [laughter] >> Uh maybe email cuz I check that every day. >> Um and this is Can I keep your car? Is that okay? Or you need it back? >> I mean, that's not my number or nothing, but that's >> So, that's where you're at now? >> Yes. >> Um cool. Um, do you have any questions of me before we kind of wrap things up? Like I said, the big thing for me is I want I want to be able to count on you. I I want to be able to be able to communicate with you during this process. >> I just want to find out what what went on. >> Well, I mean, I told [clears throat] you I told you what the evidence is. Yeah. >> Okay. And that's not a matter of my opinion. >> That's medical doctors. Yeah, >> that's a pathologist. >> And that's very different. And you know this deep down in your heart, you know this, too. That is very different. >> That is very different from what Britney is telling me and telling you about. >> And that's exactly what it seems like. >> And uh what what is going to become of my child? How am I going to be able to get my child? Well, I mean that part of it I'm not sure of >> because I mean so far nobody's been able to give me an answer because I want my son to be able to care for him and stuff like I do for my other two children even though you know >> Okay, I got you. I got you. Maybe that's something we can kind of work through. [clears throat] I'm not a social worker. Um >> would that be who I have to talk to? I mean because I I don't know. I haven't. >> Honestly, you're probably the first person I've been I've talked to. >> Okay. Well, good. >> Any of this. >> Good. Good. I want to keep I want us I don't want us to be adversarial. I want us to be able to talk to each other. Okay. This is this is going to be a marathon. It's not a sprint. Okay? I don't want us to like shut down and lose contact. That's the reason why I wanted you I wanted you to come down here in person because I wanted you to see my face again. I wanted to kind of reintroduce myself to you. And again, I wanted to look I wanted to be able to show you these things so you could see these things with your own eyes. So, you know, it's it's one thing for me telling you this over the phone or, you know, me meeting you at your place and you're trying to move and all that. That was the reason for I wanted you down here. I wanted private room. room. I wanted you and I to be able to kind of talk manto man, you know, so you know where I'm coming from that I'm a standup guy. Um, I'm not going to run a game. I'm not going to run bull. Um, you know, it's just this is very different from what your wife is telling us. Okay. You you included. >> Yeah. Cuz like I said, I got the same story you guys got every time I ask her. [clears throat] >> Well, I'm going to give you Here's the deal. I know you were concerned about the car. Um, just so you understand, no hard feelings. Um, when I arrested Britney that day, all right, the reason I towed the car, I didn't want to leave the car out on the street, I did it incidental to her arrest. I did it for for safekeeping. Okay. Um, I held it for our investigation. Okay. >> Okay. So, um, here's my card again. I think you lost the other one maybe or >> it's okay. >> Okay. On the back, um, I've got our impound unit. That's a different unit. Okay. Um, there's the address and a phone number on it. Okay. Here's the deal. I'm not going to release it until you call me and you say, Keith, I'm ready to I'm ready to get it picked up. Okay? Because if I release the car immediately today, for example, >> if I rode my bike down there, like from here. >> Mhm. >> Um I'd be able to call you from right there. >> If you're if if you are telling me that you are getting the car today, then I I've got no problem calling them, releasing the car. Okay. >> As soon as I leave here, I will go straight down Spring Road. >> Okay. Well, then I >> I need some transportation. >> Well, then I will I will call them and I will release the car. Make sure you've got your ID. >> Okay. Make sure you got proof of insurance. >> That's in the car. >> Okay. And you've got the registration in the car, I'm guessing. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. >> So, make sure you got that to where? Cuz they won't let you They won't let you drive the car out. You can't prove that. >> That's the first time. You understand that? >> I mean, this first time I've ever had a car impound. That's why I don't know what to really do. Is there anything else? >> That's it. I mean, it's I'll I'll let them know that you're on your way. >> All right. >> But just do me a favor. Don't don't not show up. >> No, I >> and then a week later you call mad. >> That's not going to happen. >> And they say, "Hey, you know, Keith, I owe whatever in fees." Right. >> Okay. >> Yeah. It's not going to happen. I'm going to go straight there from here. And the fastest way to Spring Road from here would be >> I would just [clears throat] cuz I'm not really familiar with >> go uh I'm trying to think. Um you know what? I'll show you here. Walk out here. I'll show you. Might be easier to >> Britney Maize was arrested at the end of that interview. A grand jury indicted her on one count of aggravated murder, two counts of murder, and one count of endangering children. Charles Maize was never charged in connection with Avery's death. For more than 3 years, the case moved toward trial. Then on January 13th, 2020, the day her trial was set to begin, Britney Mays accepted a plea deal and pleaded guilty to the aggravated murder of her daughter. The remaining counts were dismissed. Addressing the court, she said, "Just that it really wasn't what it seemed. I really did love my daughter." Judge Robert Ruleman sentenced Maize to life in prison with her first chance at parole after 20 years. From the bench, he told her, "You're the one that killed your daughter. You did it." Her appeal was denied in 2021. She will face a parole board for the first time in 2036. It was not the first time Avery had been hurt. In 2011, when Avery was less than a month old, she suffered a fractured skull in Britney's care. Britney pleaded guilty to attempted child endangering and served 6 months. Avery was returned to her custody in the spring of 2015, about 15 months before her death. >> Avery Hobbes was 4 years old. >> Avery Lee Hobbes was born on September 22nd, 2011. >> She died on August 1st, 2016. She was four years old. The people who knew her remember a little girl who smiled easily >> and who loved her Saturday morning fishing trips. Her grandmother said to those >> she had a lot of people that loved her that would have done anything to protect her. >> Rest in peace Avery. She deserved safety, care, and the chance to grow up. Behind the records, recordings, and courtroom outcome was a child whose life mattered. We remember Avery for the joy held in these photos. >> If cases like this one matter to you, subscribe to Stay Alert Interrogation for more fulllength police interrogations. Real cases, real detectives from beginning to end. Turn on notifications so you never miss a case. Thanks for watching and stay alert.