He was a quiet man with a dark past and even darker secrets. Between 1990 and 1993, women began vanishing around St. Louis, their bodies, brutally murdered and stuffed in containers, were dumped across the city. The killer left no clues until decades later. Gary Randall Milberg, later known as the package killer, was first convicted in 1993 for one murder. But in 2022, DNA evidence finally unraveled the truth. He had been hiding in plain sight for over 30 years, responsible for the deaths of at least five people, including four women and one man. Beneath the surface of his ordinary life, army service, two marriages, a psychology degree, was a disturbing pattern of rape, manipulation, and escalating violence. His victims were often women on society's margins. His home hid secrets, and behind a false wall, a life of crime thrived. What you're about to see are the chilling confession footage of one of Missouri's most coldblooded serial killers. In this fulllength video, Gary Melberg, the package killer, is slowly unraveled by seasoned cold case detectives who use calculated psychological pressure and subtle persuasion to guide him toward the truth. Knowing he's already serving a life sentence, terminally ill, and with death closer than justice ever could be, Gary lets his mask slip, one murder at a time. These interviews are raw and unfiltered. Each moment reveals more of the monstrous reality he tried to hide for decades. Chapters and timestamps are listed in the timeline and description below to help you navigate this disturbing journey into the mind of a killer. Hi, Mr. Beielberg. Yes. Hi. How are you? I'm Sergeant Jody Weber. I'm with you Police Department. Who? Ofall Police Department. Okay. I've waited a long time to talk to you. So, really? Yeah. Yeah. I see. I'm Mike Harvey with St. Charles County. Okay. Yeah. How you doing today? Okay. You okay? What's up? I just woke up. You did? Yeah. I thought you just had lunch. They were talking about chicken patties. I skipped it going. You don't like chicken patties? Yeah. Yeah. I guess you don't get many visitors. No. No. No. Okay. So, get to the chase. What's going on? All right. Well, um we're investigating some cases um from back in the early 90s. So, we got to do some paperwork for us to be able to talk about that any further. Okay. Okay. So, I do have to give you your Miranda rightites. Um just because you're here now and for us to be able to talk to you and hear what we got to say. Okay. Okay. That could have a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. You've been here since 93. I was arrested in '93. I've been here since Well, I went to Fulton in uh November of 95, I believe. Okay. Normally, you go to Fulton and they they do a diagnostic test and then they point you out to wherever you're going to be. Yeah. For St. Louis County up to reception diagnostics and I got to sign something. Yeah. I'm just going to read these to you real quick. Just say that you understand them initial. Are you in bad health or anything? Uh yeah. Yeah. I've had cancer surgery. I've had my scrotum operated on because of gang green the end of uh 2020. Oh, really? I've got a bad heart. I'm getting old. Yeah. All right. Okay. Well, in order for us to continue talking about this and you want to hear what we have to say or what we're here for, let's go through this real quick. Yeah. Yeah. My curiosity. Okay. Uh before we ask any questions, you must understand your rights. You do not have to make a statement or answer any questions. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you're asked any questions and have a lawyer present with you during questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and if you so desire, one will be appointed for you before any questioning. If you decide to answer questions and or make a statement now, you will have the right to stop answering questions and remain silent at any time. Okay. Is it just saying that you're willing to talk to or listen to what we have to say or talk to us? Yeah. So, I did a little homework on you. Um, so you have been here since 93 or you got locked up in 93. Been here since 95. Okay. Are you from the St. Louis County area? Yeah, that's where I fell from up in Bill Ridge. Okay. And you lived there from like the late 80s, right? In Bill Ridge. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, there's some girl there's a particular girl that I wanted to talk to you about. Okay. Okay. Um, obviously you know probably you probably watch television and technology changing in this world. Um, DNA is a big thing right now and technology I mean with DNA progressing so much okay throughout the years. Um, that's kind of what put us here right now. So, um I can tell you, um for back in the early 90s, um you know, we had 30 to 40 investigators, uh working on these cases and could never figure these out. Never figure this case out. Um but here we are in 2022 with technology and we got a DNA hit. Okay. Okay. Um does that ring a bell at all? You know Robin? No, I don't remember her. You remember Robin? Did you, you know, happen to pick up or pick up any prostitutes at all back then those days or? Not that I can recall. No. Yeah. I got divorced. Damn. I don't even remember when that was early 90s. Okay. Um I mean I might have but Okay. Um so your I guess your ex-wife she you got divorced I want to say it was late 80s maybe. You have two kids like I don't remember exact date. Okay. And you have two kids together. Yep. Okay. One's deceased. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. How How long ago did It was a Your son, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Has that been a while? Yeah, a couple couple good years. Okay. Was he sick? Huh? Was he sick? Yeah. Uh into drugs and had some mental problems. Okay. Did you have a good relationship with your kids? Yeah. Uh considering I'm here and they're in St. Louis. Yeah. Best as you can, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Um so, so early 90s you're living in Bell Ridge. Um I guess up until 93 when you got locked up. Yeah. Okay. Um and you did, you said you did kind of maybe pick up a prostitute here and there. Yeah. Okay. Do you remember their names at all? No. No. Where would you have picked them up from? At bars or taverns? Any street walkers or anything like that? They may have been, but I don't know. I don't remember where they were when I met them. Mainly bars. Okay. But they were working girls. They weren't just patrons of the bar. I mean, you actually they were prostitutes. After I got talking to them, I guess I knew they were, you know, cuz it would cost you some money. H It would cost you some money. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, how many girls you think you picked up over those early 90s? I have no recolle. I know. I know. We're throwing stuff at you from Yeah. 32 years ago, right? Yeah. And my memory is not the best anymore. Yeah. What kind of meds are you on? What kind of medications are you on? What kind of medications are you on? Uh blood circulation, blood pressure, uh heart medicine. I carry nitro. I see that. Yeah. Uh digestive problems. Nothing all mind altering or anything like that? No. No. No meds like that. No anti-depressants or anything like that. So you you're pretty clearheaded. You just got a lot of physical problems. Yeah. I mean what I went through in 2020 and the aftermath what I'm suffering. I mean I got arthritis in the knees and the hands. Right. Well, believe it or not, I think you're two or three years younger than I am. How old are you? 75. How old? 75. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I'm going I'm 73. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm knock on wood, man. Things are going things are going well. So, um part of my job is that I do a lot of these uh like she was talking about, you know, progress and DNA and stuff like that. I work cold cases. I did a a pretty long stint with a local police department, but now I'm hired to do pretty much cold cases. And that's why I'm a I'm working with Jody here to, you know, work on some of these that are been sitting around for years and years and years. And uh again in reference to the cases that she's going to talk about, I was one of the original investigators on that case back in the '9s in ' 91. So I have a knowledge of these cases and she's been devoting almost her entire time in the detective bureau doing the same thing, working on cases like this, especially this case here. So she has a lot of information. Uh she will explain it to you and let just lay it out to you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're here life without parole, right? So you're spending your rest of your time here. However, however, however long that might be, right? Okay. Um well, I'm just going to show you. Um, this is Do you need glasses to read or can you read? I'm okay. I thought I'd going out for medication. That's why I got my pen with me and I'm not properly dressed. So, Robin Mian, she was a young lady that um was found I'm being charged with an homicide. No, you're not being charged with anything right now. I'm just showing that's the lab report. Um Okay. Robin was killed. Okay. And she was found in between two mattresses. and your DNA came back on two different pieces of evidence from her. Okay. So, does that look familiar? And what I want to tell you, Gary, um, what is it? Those are mattresses. Oh. So, what I want to tell you, Gary, is there is a journalist writing a book about these cases. Okay. And he's waiting for the final chapter. Okay. Um he he apparently his mom covered these stories back in the early 90s. Okay. And he's doing this as kind of a legacy to her. So he's writing a book and he's waiting kind of just to do the final chapter of the book. Um he doesn't know who you are yet. I haven't released the information of who you are. Um but there's going to be a lot of people studying these cases. They're very interested in these cases. Um um obviously we didn't you know we didn't pick your name out of the hat. I mean your DNA came back to two pieces of evidence on Robin. So I just kind of want to give closure to these cases and put these cases to rest. I mean you with you being here with life without parole. I don't know that it's going to change much for you. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I I don't know how I'm tied into this, but a mattress. Um, I can dry mouth without my teeth in. Where is your water? Does that look familiar at all? M do you go have you been out to Lincoln County at all? I can't even think where Lincoln County is. Do you know where Troy Troy, Missouri is? Yeah. If you go down 70 and pick up 79. I've been through it. R 63. Going up to Iowa to visit family. Okay. here. Basically, what we're trying to do is we've got three cases that we're working. Mhm. And uh three of them all happened back in that particular time frame. And we got obviously we got the lab people sending us a copy. Matter of fact, they just text me not too long ago. They do have a report. And um the DNA, I'm not sure if you understand what DNA is and Yeah. and how it's progressed. Um, I mean, I can probably get my DNA off that. So, it's a very sophisticated system that they use. And is there any reason why your DNA would be on two items from this particular case? If that was one of the prostitutes I picked up, I imagine we had a sexual relationship. Okay. Does you wouldn't happen to remember a name or anything like that? No. Do you know uh Okay. So, you've ad you say that you picked up prostitutes and you had sexual relations and if your DNA was on particular items, that leads us to believe that you were involved because these items we found were around in or around her body. Okay. when we discovered. So, I think you understand where we're going with this. Yeah. Correct. You're thinking I am committed a crime. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And uh that's why we want to talk to you. We got a whole lot of stuff that we want to talk to you about. Again, she mentioned that uh you know, I don't think any and I I don't know, but none of these are should affect the time you're doing right now. Um, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that because I have no power to make a decision one way or the other, but we believe that you're involved in this particular case. Okay. And that's what we want to talk to you about. So, I'm being accused of what that says. Well, that's just the way the report that's the title of the that's the title of the of the report at this point. Um, but like I said, with these mattresses, there's two pieces of evidence wrapped up inside there, okay, that come back to you. So, like I I we explained it to you, you know, you're in here for whatever time you have left. You're not getting any I mean, I don't know how they can give you anything more. You know what I'm saying? Um, but we would like to we would like the death penalty. Well, I mean, you know, that takes 15, 20 years. You know, that takes 15, 20 years. Typically, not since the courts ruled a couple years back is, you know, I'm not going to cop something. I'm didn't do or don't remember doing. Could you have done it? Just don't remember. I think this conversation's over cuz I don't understand all this. That's why we're just trying to explain it to you. Um, that's why I'm laying it out there for you. But I appreciate that. Um, I mean, I might have had been one of many people that had a sex relation with somebody one day if it's a prostitute. Mhm. Cuz common sense tells me that's how they make their living. Have a couple Johns. Well, I'll be specific with you. It I mean, this um the DNA came back on a condom wrapper. Okay. the condiment wrapper was wrapped up with her. Um, and then she had tape on her body that comes back to your DNA. Okay. So, I mean, I'm I'm being honest as I can with you. I appreciate that, but I don't No. No. Like I said, we, you know, I mean, there's a lot of people want to study these cases and study you and, you know, get in your brain right now. these cases, you know. Um, and I know we're laying a lot on you. Um, you haven't probably thought about anything going back into the early 90s in a long time, um, after 32 years. Um, but we're being upfront with you when it comes to what we've got. Okay. So, um, we're just trying to find out, you know, exactly how it happened, what happened. Um because we've already got the, you know, physical evidence that we need. So, well, if you got the evidence, why are you talking to me? Charge me or something? Because that's not what I'm looking to. I want to get in your I want to find out all about it. I want to find out details of what how, you know, get in your head right now and find out how it happened, what happened. Those are the things I'm I'm interested in. Okay? It's not all about, you know, charging you with something. Um, I want to I need I would like details just so I can learn more about you. Um, why? Well, the this is a case that's gone unsolved for 32 years, right? That not one detective back in the early 90s, 40, 50 detectives working on this were not able to solve it. None of those guys with all their experience and all their training and all everything um they weren't able to solve these cases. Okay. So that's why I want I want to learn as much as I can about you because you got past all of them. I got what? You got past all of them. You know what I mean? You got you got one over on all of them. We had no clue. We never even heard of you until the uh report came down from the DNA. And that's basically why we're trying to tie trying to wrap these up. Okay. What's the worst thing that you think could happen to you if you talk to us about this? Now, worst case scenario, what would be the worst thing that could happen to you? You said death row, the death penalty. If you're already doing life, I don't know anybody would really want to What are they going to do? Give you double, triple lives or whatever that is? That's not going to happen. Yeah. I mean, I'm not I'm not ever getting out of prison. Right. Right. So, we're just g we we'd like to take the opportunity again with me working one of these cases. Excuse me. We'd like to kind of wrap this all up and for you too. I'm sure that uh I don't know if you think about this every I don't know if you think about it at all. if you think about these possible cases at all. But this is kind of like a you know for your your benefit to get it over with and ours so we can get get it over with. I don't understand get over what I mean I'm in here for murdering a man. Right. Right. I've read I've read the entire report entire thing. Um they say you're not a problem here. They said you've never been a problem here. You haven't had any write up since 2008. It sounds like you just And the write ups I've had were like minor ones. Stupid stuff on that. Passing jelly beans or something crazy. Passing jelly beans. Yeah. You got written out for passing jelly beans. What did they think they were pills or what did they I mean I guess you just they got certain they got rules and regulations wherever you go. Yeah. Yeah. And in a confined environment like this, some are petty, some aren't, but you still got like on a street, I don't know if you still got laws against jaywalking. I don't know if anybody I don't know if anybody's ever got, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I think I got a citation once for cutting my grass too early in the morning because it was a noise pollution. The neighbors complained. Mhm. You got you got minor, you know. Sure. rules and laws. They got them in here, right? Control environment, right? Yeah. So, I mean, if that's what you're worried about, I don't know that they're going to I don't know what they'll do, but I'm just saying I don't know that they'll take their time and go through all the jumps. Time and money is what it takes time and a lot of money to proceed with any of these guys. You're 73 years old. That's what you all are getting paid for, right? That's your job, right? Right. And that's why we're here. That's why we're here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have kids. I mean, you have a daughter, right? Um I would like to give answers to this young lady's kids, you know, that they've gone 32 years not knowing. You can tell her I'm not the one. I mean, so there's traces of DNA on a a prostitute. I'm sure I'm not the only one she ever had sex with. Well, it just maybe she's the first time. I don't know. I don't I mean, like I said, it was the tape on her body, so I don't know that she would leave the tape on her body kind of thing. You know what I mean? Um, well, like I said, I know we're throwing a lot at you. Yeah, we are throwing a lot at you. I'd say so. I mean, I feel like I'm being accused of a homicide. I mean, that's what the questions are. Well, I mean, you found a dead prostitute with traces of my DNA on something. Mhm. Okay. One of them you might be able to explain away. Maybe the condom wrapper, you know. Um, this young lady happened to be between those two mattresses. She was uh inside those mattresses. Those are two mattresses. Yeah. Yeah. Top and bottom. Okay. She was found in between those. And that's where the condom wrapper was that has your DNA on it. And uh do you have pictures of the tape? Yeah, this is the this is this is the tape, okay, that's on her on the breast. And if you lift that tape up, there's DNA on the underside of that tape. So, if she's even doing 15 guys a day, none of them would be on that tape underneath underneath the underside of that tape. Yeah. So, technically that's why we're here to see you. All right. Cuz again, maybe she had the condom wrapper, but she's naked. It's not like she had it in a pocket or anything like that. So, she's got this condom wrapper in the mattress and has DNA, your DNA. And then also with the tape, um, that is very hard to explain how your DNA got on the underside of that tape on her breast if in fact it wasn't you that was with her and she wound up in those mattresses. Yeah. So, uh, you said earlier that uh, you didn't you first you said you didn't do it, then you said you don't remember. Is there a chance you did it and you just I don't remember the name or specifics on where I met her, where I picked her up, how we met. Sure. You know, I've got a lot of friends or had friends in the past. I can't recall where I met him or how I met them. I'm sure you're the same way. You remember all your friends, everybody you ever talked to or met or been with? I understand that. Yeah. Okay. Um the case you're in here on um we again we read it you tried to get somebody to move him out of your basement and I think that you there was a box you were in you were in construction right you construction worker carpenter and all that um when people when they were supposed to go down when they found the body it was looked like they were you were trying to build a box around him in order to get him out of there to, you know, to dispose of the body. Maybe you weren't going to take him out, but I know you had tried to get a hold of several people that I don't want to talk about I still have nightmares on my case. Okay. All right. The reason I bring that up, do you have a picture of the uh your case? We have another case that u it's hard to tell because they're pretty gruy pictures, but we got another case. This is another prostitute. And this is a box and there's a dresser that's inside the box. She was inside the dresser and the box was looks like it was built around her. Again, that pretty much coincides with the case that you know, you don't want to talk about it. I won't go further into it. But that's why all these cases seem very similar because uh where we found them u we called them we use the word they were packaged. U all three of the cases we're talking about obviously the mattress is a package. Uh this was a box was a dresser inside of a box. And then we have a third one that uh actually wasn't as sophisticated as as these two were. And she was found in a trash can. One of those plastic trash cans. So, and they're I mean they're they're the girls are connected. They know each other or knew each other back in the day. So everything that we're putting together and everything that we're doing this again, this wasn't as sophisticated as the other ones, but it definitely uh she was in there and I think it was in the plastic in there and quite some time because um she had decomposed quite a bit. Um so what we're doing is I got DNA guys working actually on the way up that kept sending us messages and stuff. um they're continuing to work on that and u not when or not if but when they get a DNA hit then we're we're going to tie all three of them together and we're here to give you an opportunity to talk to us about these and make it as easy on yourself as you can possibly make it and let us know what you you're going to charge me with What? Three homicides? We don't know if we're going to charge anybody. We're up here to try to get the truth out of you and have you tell us what you know. I don't know anything about those. So again, how do you explain your DNA being on the tape? On the tape? I don't. Now, you don't doubt that we have it, right? I mean I mean what I'm thinking right now is kind of like private thoughts but if you got it you got it. Okay. I also know of how y'all build cases. Well they I've been doing this almost 50 years and I've never put anybody in prison that didn't deserve to be there. So I don't build the case. You don't have to worry about putting me in prison and keeping me here. You're already here. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We're just looking for answers. I I became interested in these cases about 14 years ago. I was fascinated with them. I like cold cases. I like working cold cases. Um I started looking into it and I couldn't believe that all these investigators couldn't solve these. Mhm. You know, you say these all happened when? Back in the 1990. Around the '90s. Okay. Yep. All in 1990. And all three girls knew each other. Um they all came from the same area. And where would that be? Um Cherokee Street in St. Louis. Okay. Used to be called the old I think. Well, that and they used to call it the stroll back in uh back in the day. I think I used to live down on California off of triple water Cherokee. Right. That's close to that's close to where this is. Yeah. So, you would be familiar with the area, correct? Well, my in-laws live down on uh Compton and Arsenal. Mhm. And that's when Karen and I separated, she moved back with her family. Yeah. So, what years did you live down in that in the Compton area? Oh. Oh, or California. I can't remember exactly where I was married. That was the old third district back then, wasn't it? Down by the Annheiser Bush or close to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the Anheiser Bush was on 55 in Arsenal. Yes. Yeah, I believe it is. Yeah. Real close to Sulard. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this isn't too far from that. And you know, you know the area. Yeah. I mean, my aunt and uncle and grandparents lived down by Vivville Mill. Sure. In fact, I was born down on Gainer. I know where it's at. Mhm. Right behind uh It used to be a grocery store. It came a lot of different things. Christy Park. Okay. Yeah. Had you any of the prostage that you picked up, would you have picked them up off of Cherokee Street? You say you met a lot of them in the bar, but I didn't meet a lot of them. Or had you picked any prostates up from around the Cherokee Street area? Well, I don't remember. Probably. Okay. All right. You see where we're kind of we're trying to put this whole thing is like a puzzle. Yeah. And I'm a very slow puzzle worker, so I have to ask a lot of these. A lot of them made me sound stupid to you, but I got to ask them because I don't know the answer to all these. Um, we again uh what do you think about a guy writing a book about you? I mean, is that a good thing, a bad thing, or or what do you think? I never thought I'm not thinking about it. I mean I mean you know I mean I wouldn't know how to do that. I wouldn't know how to take it. He uh he wrote a couple articles about these cases. Yeah. Um I have it here. It's in my stack I'm going to show you. This is the guy that's writing the book. Write this one too. Did he write for the paper? Yeah, he wrote for uh Riverfront Times. You remember the Riverfront Times? I probably That's the guy writing the book. Ryan Cruel. Yeah. So he bugs me every couple of months cuz he wants to finish his book. I mean, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I like I said, I'm not interested in reading that kind of book. Yeah. I'm not interested in No, I'm not I don't read that kind of Who done it? Murder mystery. Yeah, I don't do that. Do you uh you said you're not good with names, but do you remember a Butch Alers in your case? from St. Louis County. He was talking about how he really liked you. Huh? He was talking about how he really liked you. Butch, this is back in his remember Butch came to my office, right? He was talking about how much he likes Gary. Where is he from? St. Louis County Police Department. Uh, I think he might have something to do with the case I'm here on. Yeah, but he was talking about how much he liked you and he he wanted to come here to talk to you, but he's still alive. He is. Yeah, he liv He's old enough, didn't he? I don't He didn't look older than Yeah, he's living Yeah. Down at the lake somewhere. Yeah. So, he's retired now. So, I didn't um Aren't we all? I mean, I am basically I did once I went back. Um obviously, we're not going we're not giving up on this, especially, you know, after 32 years of working it. I worked it from scratch from day one. And um we're going to continue working it. Uh we again we there's nothing we can say that will convince you that you're not going to get charged with all three, one or two or whatever. We we don't know. That's not our job to do. Our job do is to gather get the truth and lay the truth out and see where we go from that. And that's all we wanted from you was the truth. Okay. Um, do I believe that you're involved in these? Yes, sir. I do. I'm not gonna lie to you. I don't lie to people. I in I do believe that you're involved. Uh, again, we're trying to make I know this sounds bogus, but we're trying to make it as easy on you as we can because we don't get any feathers in our caps from this. We just get the satisfaction that family members, you talked to one of the woman's son. Yeah. Who was like two years old at the time. Two years old. Yeah. And for us to be able to go back and say, we went and talked to Gary. Here's what he laid out for us. Get some closure. So detriment, it's not detrimental to you, but it's very very important for them to know that because all these years we get phone, I'm sorry, we get phone calls all these years ago, you figured out who killed my mom, you figured out who killed my aunt, you know, and stuff like that. And being the dummy I am, it's like, well, we kind of know who didn't, you know, because we have eliminate eliminated a lot of people. And we just want to be able to tell these people say yes. You talked to Gary, he was straight up. He really I understand the bit about closure. I mean, I mean, with you, I mean, I know it's horrible that you lost your son. I know. I mean, no matter what, that's a devastating thing. Everybody's had devast I mean I lost a brother in Vietnam. How was Okay. Y uh the day he was buried for me with closure. So you'll never know exactly how or who killed him. See that that statement you just made there pretty much explains why we're here. I was in Vietnam 68 69. What branch? I'm Marine Corps. Simp five. You Marine Corps? Except for five. Hey, brother. Yeah. To do or die. Um, I hit Vietnam 68 69. I didn't lose any relatives over there. I'm the only only boy in my family. So, I'm the only one that got to go play in the uh rice patties over there. Yeah. Um, so what I was saying is your closure was when you buried your brother. Was he killed by enemy fire or do you you don't know? I don't Yeah. You don't know. So when you say closure, when they throw the dirt on top of them, but you still in the back of your mind, you're thinking, "When the hell this happened?" I mean, I my job was if you're in Vietnam and you get shot, my job was to call in a helicopter, come get you, take you back, either dead or alive, take you back to the rare area. That's what I did. Okay. Yeah. Ronnie was missing for three days. Yeah. See? Yeah. And again, if you knew in your mind that, not that you'll have a picture of it, but if you knew in your mind that he was walking up top of a hill and enemy shot him and killed him, that's closure. Just throwing them in the ground, putting dirt on them is I guess that is closure. If you don't know, these people put their people in the ground and threw dirt on top of them. They don't have closure. They don't have closure. If you accept the fact that you to them, they don't. Some people I mean, it's one of those things at first I'm closure means something different to everybody, right? Would you not like to know exactly what happened to you? Was it Ronnie is his name? Ron. Ron. Yeah. Wouldn't you know? Wouldn't you want to know exactly what happened? I mean, I had to write letters back home to these families of people that I put on helicopters and it's like, he died in war. I mean, I've accepted it. I've moved on. Yeah. Well, that's that's good for you. That that way you have a a clear clear head and a clear handle on everything. That's what these people are looking for. I can understand that. But you know, I mean, the one son, I mean, he came in my office and he's 34 years old now and he was 2 years old at the time and broke down in tears. Yeah, I can understand that. Lots and lots of tears just not knowing. I break down in tears when I think of family members. If I There's Yeah. Some things I leave buried. I don't rehash them. Yeah, I trust me. The nightmares are still there. Yeah. Were you in the Marine Corps? That's what I just said. Yeah. I thought you said cuz I mean when when were you all trying to catch me up in something now? No, we're not. We're done talking. We're done talking. Okay. Okay. Um All right. Well, you have we have to go get them to come get you back. Just have a seat. We have to go get them. Oh, yeah. We can't. Just let know the way back. Did you have anything else? No, I was just going to give my business card so he knows who we are. So, Gary, here's my business card. Okay. Um, uh, you can keep it. I don't need your business card. Okay. You already got your minds made up for investigating this and you know No, I I don't want to leave on bad terms, Gary, because I mean I was excited. No, we're not. You all are doing our job, I guess. I know. I I just I'm looking to give answers to some people. That's all. That's all. You know, and I was hoping maybe you can help us out with that. That's for you all to do. I'll be here if you want to talk to me some more. Would you have a problem with us coming back and talk to you? If I had a problem, would it make a difference? Well, you can refuse to talk to us. Yeah. No, I have no problem with it. Okay. So, we're going to leave it kind of open as the fact that if we get more information, we'll come back and talk to you. If this is your choosing, you want to, you know, okay, I can't Oh, stop you from coming down. Right. There is one thing. Did you uh approach the uh Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have a we went to the county courthouse and uh when we have when uh our lab people get a DNA hit, we have to confirm that. So, we'll take B we're going to get a buckle swap from you to send to them. and we went to uh the county courthouse and got a search warrant to do that. Okay. You don't have any problem doing that for us, do you? Yeah. I mean, you've already done it here. That's already got my DNA. So, yeah, but see, the lab requires confirmation and that's why we have to get a uh one within a certain date of the case. No, I'm you might not. I'm not going to give no swab or nothing. Okay. The the only on file in the DOC anyway. Well, it works a little different when it's on file for DOC. They won't let us have it for what we need it for. I know. Crazy, isn't it? Other than it it gets entered into COTUS. That's how we got the match, but now the lab requires us to get confirmation. So, I'm not given a swab or blood draw or whatever. Well, we don't do blood draws. This is just like a like I'm not giving anything. Well, we really don't because the judge signed it. We really don't have a choice and we don't want to do it by force, but we can. We don't want to do it that way. Force. Yes. The judge signed the search warrant, so we have to So, we're obligated to do it. We don't want to cause any issu. Uh, I think I might want to talk to an attorney. Well, that's fine. But that doesn't supersede the search warrant. We still have Well, this is what you say. I don't know that. Well, that's what the judge says and we're respect. I haven't heard it from the judge or seen it in writing or anything. I'm going to give him a copy. It's right here. I'm going to give you a copy. [Music] I still I think I wanted attorney. I mean, we don't want to cause any undo we don't want to cause any undo, you know, problems for anything like that. Y No, I'm not I'm not doing this. Okay, Gary. Okay, we have to get one way or another. So, what I don't want to cause any problems for you. I didn't I didn't expect it to go like this. I expected us to get, you know, have a cordial conversation. So, I don't want to fight with you. Well, I can't think of a proper word. Uh choreograph know what you're doing or what you're after. But I we we were honest with you. I mean, we didn't have to show you the lab report. We didn't have to show you the pictures. We didn't have to show you any of that. But I felt like, you know, you're a smart guy. I've I've done my research on you. I've done my homework. I've talked to numerous people that know you and they said you're a very intelligent guy. They all said you're very intelligent. Um I talked to I'm being I'm being pacified or patronized now. No, I'm just saying that I want an attorney. Okay. But in the meantime, we're going to go ahead and get the swabs. All right. And then we'll send you back on your way. I want an attorney. Well, well, you can. I mean, we just can't right now, but we're done. As far as that goes, I will give you a copy of the search warrant. I don't want any of that. Did you tell them? No. We can get my DNA like you're saying off paper and stuff. I mean, I've touched stuff. It's just harder. That's all it is. It's harder. Then you would have to press that whole piece of paper. That's it, you know. And I think it's ridiculous that we have to get confirmation because we don't get confirmation for somebody's fingerprints. They make us get confirmation for something like this. I think it's silly, but I don't make the rules. Oh, well, we didn't want to do it this way, but these gentlemen are going to do. You got to do it. I I you I'll listen to our correctional officer. I'm in. I got you. So, just cooperate with them and we'll Okay, then you'll let her do the buck as well. Got to bring everybody for you, man. We're hate. We hate to get kicked by that cane. You have a cane. I'm too old to raise any cane. I'm sorry. Was it armless, right? Did you want a copy of this? No. Okay. I guess you keep it for your file or something. Uh, did you not give them a copy already? No. Okay. No, we do. Okay. Do you need this one back? Actually, that's his. That's his. Okay. We will we will put it in his file. All that one. That's it. All right, man. You going by five? Oh, yeah. All right. Huh? Oh, no. Gary Muellberg clearly wasn't expecting detectives to confront him with decades old evidence linking him to multiple murders. After more than 30 years of silence, Mielberg didn't confess during the first meeting. Instead, he demanded a lawyer the moment detective served him a judge signed warrant to collect his DNA. Visibly irritated, he accused them of staging the whole interaction, claiming it was choreographed because they already knew what they wanted. Detective Jodie Weber tried to appeal to his ego, telling him she had spoken to people who knew him and had spent years researching his life. I know you're a very intelligent man, she said. But rather than softening him, the compliment pushed him further into agitation. He accused them of patronizing him. Still, Milberg eventually allowed the DNA swab, setting the stage for what was to come. But Detective Weber wasn't about to walk away empty-handed. Determined to get a confession, she returned with a strategy. In the next meeting, she presented Gary with letters from three separate prosecutors guaranteeing that the death penalty would not be pursued. At 74 years old, terminally ill, and already serving a life sentence, Muellberg had little to lose. What followed was chilling. In the next interview, Gary begins to open up. If you're ready to hear his shocking confessions, they begin in the next segment. Chapters are marked in the timeline and listed in the description below for easy navigation. This is a long video, but one you won't want to miss. Gary, good morning. Hi, Gary. Morning. Have a seat. Okay. Hi, Gary. How are you? Gary, how are you? I got what I got you what you wanted. Okay. I got you three letters here from three prosecutors. You want to take a look at that? Then they won't seek the death penalty. That's uh this one is Lincoln County. This one is Wesley Bell from St. St. Louis County. And this is Tim Lomar from St. Charles County. Also, my boss has called the director of department of corrections and also we talked to the warden here. No matter what happens, you will not be out of here. You will not lose any privileges, your iPhone, nothing. iPad, iPad. Yeah. Everything will be remain safe. Okay. Because because last time we talked to you, I think that was one of your biggest concerns was the because you were pretty much setting your ways here and then the death penalty. So, we've answered both those situations and we would like to talk to you further in reference to the cases we're working. Okay. Okay. All right. because I can um since we talked to you last time um some more evidence came back with DNA on it. The shirt the t-shirt two pieces of uh the t-shirt came back with your DNA too. The t-shirt that was wrapped around her head. Yeah. So, um obviously you can have copies of these if you would like them. Yeah. Okay. Let me grab a pen. So, we have to go through this again. What time is it? 9:40. Yes. So, am I leaving here today? Nope. No, sir. Not going to change anything right now. All right, Gary, if I'm just going to read these to you if you understand, just send those right there for me. Okay. Before we ask you any questions, you must understand your rights. You do not have to make a statement or answer any questions. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to talk to a lawyer for advice before you um before you are asked any questions and to have a lawyer present with you during questioning. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer and if you so desire, one will be appointed for you before any questioning. If you decide to answer questions and or make a statement now, you have the right to stop answering questions or remain silent at any time. Does that change if I request an attorney? We just can't talk to you right now. Um and if you do, uh I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah. Um I can tell you I I talked to all three of them and said, "Please, I know they wanted to go all the way. I asked them to please not do that and let us give Gary a chance to do this." So, um, I can't tell you if we don't get cooperation what they're going to do. I can't I don't know that. I mean, I'm old enough in my healthwise even with death penalty, I'd never I would pass away before I got there. That's correct. That is correct. I don't know if you know aware of my health. Yes. Actually, you told us basically what your health was. Yeah. have heart condition and Yeah, with the heart and the cancer and all that stuff. Yeah. Okay. Is are you good with the cancer now? I mean, or is it Yeah, they removed my prostate and uh could be some complications, but the heart slowed down a whole bunch. Okay. You know. Okay. You seem tired. Yeah. Fatigue. Yeah. Yeah. My heart rate is stays around 140 to 64 or something like that. They say it's low. Okay. It is kind of low. Well, it is low. It is. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. So, now what? So, I'd like to start with Robin. Um, I have a picture of Robin. I don't recognize the name, of course. It's 30 some odd years ago. So Robin was the young lady that was in between the two mattresses. You know what? In between two mattresses. Can you tell me how tell me how you uh met her? Man, I've been thinking about that. It's like I don't know. I can't recall the circumstances I met her, but I guess if my DNA and all that stuff ties me to it, I'm good for it. But I don't remember a lot of the details. Can you tell us some of the details that you remember? H Can you tell me some of the details you remember? I don't How did she die? Well, she had uh maybe like blunt force trauma to the head and strangulation. And what? Strangulation. Okay. Do you recall the mattresses? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, apparently it happened in my house up in Bell Ridge. Okay. It's painful as hell. I know. Do you recall where the mattresses came from, Gary? Uh, undoubtedly my house. Were they something that you were using in your house? Do you recall? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How long uh You don't remember how you met her? Do you remember bringing her back to your house? Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't remember the exact I don't know if I met her in a bar or on the street, picked her up cuz I didn't you say she was like a a prostitute? Yeah, correct. Yeah. Sex were hired. And I can't recall the name Robin. I know from myself and other people a lot of the girls that worked the street had street names. Sure. You know. Sure. Does she look familiar though? I know it's been a long time. Yeah. You said this is back in what, 90? Yeah. That's 32 years ago. So, but you do remember having her at your house. She vaguely I mean she's an attractive looking young lady. Yeah. I Yeah. Do you remember how long she was there at your house? No, ma'am. I sure don't. Okay. I sure don't. So, what do you remember about the mattresses? I don't know. How would you have kept the mattress mattresses together? You recall that? I mean, she was in between two mattresses. Okay. How would you have kept those together? String or rope or something? And how would you secure it though? Do you remember how you secured it? Uh, not really. They were secured together though. I mean, a rope around them or That's They were secured, but I I was hoping that you could tell us how they were secured. I don't I don't I can't I wish I could recall what was going through my mind to do something like this. Do you remember doing it? Vaguely. I mean, I I'm thinking I had a sex with her. Okay. And paying her back I'm sorry. Go ahead. Back in the day, is there any reason that you would be upset with him afterwards? It would um Yeah, that's what that's what I said. I I don't know what would prompt me off hand to uh kill somebody like that. Well, I wish I could. It would might help clear my conscience. So, you've been thinking about these since we left last time? What do you think? Non-stop, huh? Yeah. Okay. You pretty much were convinced we were coming back, right? You were pretty much convinced we were coming back, right? Oh, yeah. Just a matter of time. Mhm. Five weeks today. Is it? Yeah. Your memor is better in mine. Yeah. Good memory on some things. Like, you know, when you get old, some things take it away. Sure. Now, do you remember where you disposed of her body? H Do you remember where you disposed of her body? I'm thinking last time I got something about along a highway out in St. Charles County or Troy or something. Okay. Do you remember how you got there? I didn't walk. Did you truck? What kind of What kind of vehicle was it? Uh, a late 80s Ford conversion van custo I mean it was factory custom. Had the captain seats and all that good stuff in it. Do you remember? Um, I bits and pieces I remember, but not totally. U, well, tell us what you do. That's about I mean, I don't remember exactly where I picked her up at. I'm assuming it was on the streets of South St. close going back to my house. Maybe in time I can remember more details, but right now it's it's foggy at the best. Did you own a truck back then? I know at one time I had when I was arrested for the what I'm here on, I had a uh four-wheel drive pickup truck, but that would have been like Oh, hell 91, 92. Was anything unique about that truck that you recall? It's just a four-wheel drive. I'm not even sure the make. Not even a GMC or a Chevy. But what color? Brown. Rusty. Rusty brown. Yeah. Would there have been any accessories you put on there? Any anything in the back or do you remember anything? Uh, let's see. No, cuz it wasn't really that kind of vehicle to customize. Had big tires on it. They were on there when I bought it. I can't even think of the guy's name that water from I think he hung out in the little diner in Overland too. And then went to find out when I was arrested in Illinois driving it and then I found out after I was arrested it had been stolen. So I bought a stolen vehicle but I wasn't aware of it. Okay. I don't think I would have bought it and been driving it all over the place. So, what kind of vehicle do you have before that one? Let's see. I had like three or four different cars at one time. I had the van, the pickup truck. Oh, an older Thunderbird. Think I had a Cavalier. Yeah, when I worked for the Shriners, I had a Cavalier. You ever have a vehicle with a uh a camper on the back? No. Do you know of anybody that had a vehicle with a camper on the back? Camper shelf. Camper shelf that you might have been running with. I probably did know a couple people, but not specifics. So, you said it was either St. Charles or Troy. Why that area? Why did you pick her to leave her there? I don't know. I really don't. Do you remember doing that? Yeah, somewhat. What do you remember about that? Just driving out the highway and remember what direction you were going? H what direction you were going? Uh, northwest. Okay. What else you remember? Yeah. Did anybody see you that you know? Not that I recall. I mean, I don't remember stopping or anything. when I left my house. Is anybody with you? No. No. I by myself. Are there others tied into this? Yes. Other? You mean other? Oh, people. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah, we were hoping uh Yeah, I don't think anybody was with me when this happened. Are you sure? Not 100%. Right. Do you know anybody by the name of Danny? Who? Danny Fidetti. Danny Fetti. That don't ring any bells. Who is he? He's just another name that came up throughout the years. Um, we thought maybe he was an acquaintance of yours. Once we got your DNA, we've been doing some backing on a lot of different people. And his name came up because he used to run to the diner. We don't know if he went to the diner or not. We're kind of hoping you could maybe fill in some of the blanks on that because that's that's not a real, you know, Danny Fetti is not a real common name. You know, Danny would be, but not the last name. Yeah. Did you know any Danny's over the years? I probably have, but I can't place him right now. I know some Danny's in here, but anybody that you might have uh run with when you picked up uh some prostitutes? No, I believe I was always by myself. So when you had Robin at your house, do you have any any idea how long she was there? Are we talking long period of time or? No, it wouldn't have been over a day or two. Okay. So by the time you picked her up, you had her about a day or two and then get that if that long and then you dispose of her and then you dispose of her somewhere in St. Charles, I know it was west of uh my house northwest. Coming out 70, huh? Coming out Highway 70. Yeah. You remember how far you got into St. Charles? Did you get off of um you know, you go from St. Charles, St. Peters or Fallon and Wentzville and then make a right to go up in Lincoln County in Troy area. You recall if it was you drove that far that day? Highway 79. There is a highway 79. Yeah, cuz I travel that occasionally going up to Iowa to visit family. Is that the only highway you took up to Iowa? Yeah. Yeah. Mainly a straight shot. Okay. Is there other highways? Positive. Oh, I'm thinking it was 79. There's a kind of a clover leaf semi-lover leaf interchange at or was that 64? Did 79 go straight up to Iowa or did it go up into uh Hannibal? Hannibal and uh Louisiana. Right. That was 79. That was 79. Okay. I took 64 then going into Iowa. Is that That's 61 or 64. It's the same thing. H 61 or 64. They Some people call it 64. Some people call it 61. Yeah. Yeah. There's some Yeah. At one time I know Lindberg and Gra always had state highway numbers and stuff, but I don't remember what they were. So you think you took 64 up north? Yeah. Do you remember how far you were went up on 64? No, ma'am. I don't. Okay. I just didn't know. Can I get a glass of water or something? I'm going to dry them out. The dentures when I first put them in. Yeah. And this. Sure. Sure. Um Well, if you I didn't know if you cuz you traveled up to Iowa. If you very familiar with that highway. Yeah. I got a sister and her family live up in uh Atkins, Iowa now. Okay. So, you went up there quite a bit back in the day. Oh, two or three times a year probably. Okay. So, do you recall how long you want might have been on the highway? No. Was it before or after Troy? I sure don't remember that. I know it was I think a gravel country road that I turned on. Okay. I mean, it wasn't no main artery or nothing. They're going to bring you some water. Do you remember what side off the highway? I know. The west side, maybe. Okay. What's that? How far did you go down? Not that far. Oh, bottle of water. Damn. Nothing but the best. That's a good old saying down here. Is it really? So, you're in the finest. You're in possi. nothing but the best that the DLC has to offer. I never heard that. Well, it it's I mean I've been down here since 90 beginning of 96 and uh from what I hear tell is the better of the camps as far as air condition sizewise uh things of that nature. What uh did I miss anything? Yeah, we were talking um he said he went west off the highway, but you think it was soon as you got off the highway, how far do you think you went? Oh, I don't I could guess, but I'm not. It'd just be guessing. Okay. But you said it wasn't far, right? Okay. I mean, probably under eight or nine miles, 10 miles. Okay. Do you remember what side of the highway that you left the mattresses? Yeah. Uh would have been on the west side of 64 61. Okay. And then what side of the highway? You said you turned like on a you thought maybe it was a gravel road. Yeah. Do you remember what side of the highway or the gravel road it was on? You left the mattresses? No. I don't know if I left the mattresses as soon as I see I I can't recall right now. If it was on the west side, I had to go up the highway and come back down the other side, you know, headed north on 64 and turn around somewhere. I'm thinking that was all divided highway then or not. Mhm. I think it was I know back then some of 64 going up to Iowa was divided. Uh some of it wasn't. I think now it all is, but Mhm. Yeah. Do you remember, and I know this go way back, do you remember what kind of weather it was, rain? I know. Uh, winter time, nighttime. You say it was night time. Yeah. Less traffic out, right? Yeah. Or what time of the year it was, man? I sure don't. I sure don't. I mean, I know I'm not being real helpful right now. It's It's been so long ago. Trust me, you're you're doing real well. Cuz we know this is not inside of me. Well, I understand that. That's And this this probably I don't want to seem morbid or bizarre or it's kind of like I got a load off my shoulders. Good. You know, we talked about that on the way home. It's like, you know, after we talked to you last time, I do have a conscience. Obviously, or we wouldn't be where we're at right now. Obviously, you do. That's why we want to clear these up. That's why we got three different letters from three different uh prosecutors. Um, three. That's three, man. Didn't last time we just talked about maybe two. I think we we actually did talk about two. No, we did talk about we said there were three, but I don't think we got into detail. Yeah, we never got into the details of the third. Yeah. Um, but I mean you said you have a conscience, you know, whatever we can get cleared up in one big, you know, package would be better rather than everybody coming down here to talk to you and disrupting your your life down here. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't the most intelligent thing to do in my life. Mhm. But it'd be stupid with all the evidence that you say you got and I'm I'm sure you got what you're saying you have to deny it and putting what family I got left and myself and the victim's family through two or three years of trial motions hearings Yeah. Right. So, that's why we're we're trying to get as much information this go around and put this to rest. Yeah. So, you said the mattresses came from your house. Okay. Um, can you do you recall what happened with her after she was at your house? You said you had sex with her and can you recall what happened after that? No. I mean, right now maybe maybe when I'm laying in my bone thinking about it, bits and pieces might come back, but right now it's like Mhm. Did something anger you? Hm. Did something anger you that she did or? Not that I recall. I mean, some had to pop somewhere to three different girls, you say. [Music] Mhm. Would you was there you know there there's a I've studied a lot of these cases and as she has there's sometimes after the sexual act people don't pay and that's when an argument starts. Had that ever had you ever do you remember anything like that where you may have paid and they took the money back or just didn't pay and you were you know No cuz I'm sure they were paid before they got in the van to go up to my house. Like I said, I I can't remember what what prompted me to uh do this. Do you remember doing it? [ __ ] of it I do, but not Okay. What do you remember doing? I don't actually remember actually taking her life. Do you remember after taking what happened after that happened? I remember taking the mattresses out of the house and putting them in the van. Okay. and driving out to wherever I left them. Do you remember putting her in the mattresses? Not totally. Do you remember what was w she was wrapped in in between the mattresses? What she was wrapped in? Mhm. Was there any clothing? Any anything like that? Yeah, I sure don't. I don't. I wish I could give more details to help out, but cuz I can't hurt me anymore. Let me show you another picture. And like she said, we'd like to we don't want a whole bunch of people coming down and talking to you, you know. Does she look familiar? She almost looks like a girl I dated from a little diner. Pam uh I can't even think of her last name now. Well, this is Sandra Little. H this is Sandra Little. It says Sharon. I don't know if the booking officer got that wrong or what, but yeah, it's Sandra Little and she was found in Oallen. And I think we talked about that a little bit last time about the box. I remember talking about me being a carpenter at one point. Mhm. What do you remember about her? H What do you remember about her? Not Not much at all. What kind of box? Uh it was a like plywood. It was a box that was built So when you lived at the house in on East Edgar, did you keep anyone any of these girls for a period of time? Not more than a day or two. Okay. Do you recall other ones? No, I sure don't. Well, I wish you could hypnotize me, help me remember some of this stuff to get it off. Yeah. Do this. And again, this is the old Fallon case. And uh they worked it back in and I worked this one. This is the one I worked back in the day. Actually, I worked all three of them. This is the one that I worked back in the day as well. And uh again, she's a prostitute. Okay. Um from where? St. Louis. Around the Cherokee Street area. Where? Cherokee Street area. South St. Louis. Right. Right. Now, we don't know if there's more than three. All we know is that there's at least we got three of them connected through, you know, all the lab work and everything we're doing. So, and this is one of them that's connected. So, basically, we believe this is another one that you might have done. Oh, she sure don't look familiar. Now, this is uh I don't know the date on this photograph or how how early it is before she was taken. Do you recall? Well, this the date on here says 54 of 89 and she was 1990 is when she So that's that could be an old picture. 89. Uh less than a year. Less than a year. What was this one? 89, too. I don't know. I'd have to look at it. This is an Oh, I'm sorry. That looks like an 89. So, the box that Sandra was in is similar to the a box that Doc was in. Well, I sure remember making a box. Did you have any um old dressers sitting around that? Uh I mean I had furniture. Do you remember ever remember removing the bottoms of the drawers that she might have fit in and then the box built around her? Oh, I was thinking when you said a box, something that was put together from scratch, furniture. And this box may not have been built by you. It may have been a box that you, I don't know, took, you know, you had from a a work site or or something like that that you might have stored other things in. Mhm. Um, but she originally was put into a dresser, small dresser drawer. I really don't look that familiar, but Definitely the box, but I I can't tell. I mean, maybe it'll come back to me in time. Yeah, we're like he said, we're just trying to avoid we're just trying to avoid a bunch of people coming down here, you know. Yeah. Getting you views and everything, right? And obviously when we leave here, the prosecutors are going to ask us. I said obviously when we leave here, the prosecutor prosecutors are going to ask us how it went. So yeah, you know, hopefully they're satisfied for me with me confessing, but let me ask you this. And I think you're being honest with us. Let me ask you this, and I want you to really think about this. Were there more than one prostitute that you might have killed? Now think about it because I would know as old as I am. I would remember if there was more than one. Yeah. I mean, from what you're telling me, it does touch on recall a little bit. Like I said, 30 some odd years ago. I'm not really talking about details right now. I'm talking about the fact that were was there more than one prostate that you were involved in taking their life? Oh, taking their life. I mean, this is kind of a important question for you. Yeah. That's why we got all three prosecutors wanting to uh do this all at once. Have you killed more than one prostitute? These two for sure. I mean, there's bits and pieces that I remember, but not all the details. And and I understand that. I understand that. But don't patronize me. Okay. I'm not patronizing you. Why do you How do you think I'm patronizing you? I don't know. I mean, because I don't really understand what patronizing. Honestly, I don't. People say that and I'm like, what have I what have I said to patronize you? Probably nothing. It's just it's impossible for me to know what's going through your mind, your mind, and vice versa. I mean, there's things going through my mind right now that is clarifying some of this, but it's also foggy, you know, still. Well, I get it. I mean, we came here after 30 some years to talk to you, but I thought maybe since we were here last time, some of the stuff you've been, like you said, you've been thinking a lot about it. Yeah. And I thought maybe recall some of the stuff. I'm almost sure I've been with more than two young ladies like this, but God, I hope I didn't kill them all. We don't Yeah, we don't Let's put this way at this point. We don't know of any other ones other than these three. Mhm. doesn't mean there's And I like I said earlier, I I don't know what prompted me to take their lives cuz I I dated some pretty nice young ladies. Uh why I would go out and do something like this. Well, I mean, it was venting frustration, hostilities, anger. Uh, you were obviously a different person then. Apparently in more than one way, right? Cuz you say you have a conscience now. I've always had a conscience. Okay. Maybe not all the time. Totally in charge of it. Did something make you wish? I really do wish I knew what prompted me to do this cuz it was a bunch of mixed emotions. Embarrassment, ashamed of myself, what tripped the scale to cause this to happen. Mhm. I myself may never know. You know, admitting something to other people is relatively easier than accepting the responsibility to oneself. I don't know if that makes sense, but I mean, absolutely it does. I've done things I'm damn proud of. Of course, you have. Just ain't one none of them. I know it's hard to do, but Now is the time to get it out. I mean, like you said, you don't know how much time you have left when the right thing to do is to get it all out and get it off your conscience. and knowing that you did what you could while you were on this earth. You know right now I feel like I've done a lot just talking to y'all and I guess confessing to these maybe we just wanted a little bit more detail into what was going you know what happened. I can understand it. You all want as much detail to make sure you got the right guy. No, we got all the evidence as you and I showed you the lab reports when we're here before, but you were saying some other name, Danny, somebody that that's just a name that had come up throughout the 30 years. Okay. Um, we don't have his DNA. We have yours. So, we thought maybe because some of the stuff um you know linked like it linked to Danny, we so we thought maybe you were friends with him or knew him at some point or that name but his DNA didn't come back to anything and then it hit to you and then every piece of evidence has come back with your DNA. Yeah. So, we already know we already know we're talking to the right person. And we're just hoping we can get a little bit more detail as far as how it happened, why it happened. Yeah. I wish I wish you could get that information cuz I would enjoy it. Yeah. To know. Like I said, I come from good family, good people. I've always tried to do maybe not the right thing, but the proper thing. I just because these dates are similar to each other within months of each other. Mhm. Couple months here. And then again, all these happened in 1990. So these booking photos were just the year prior. They help in in 1990. How come there's 89 dates on it? Well, these are when they were arrested in 19 in 1989. Oh, and then the actual incident, the murders happened in 1990, so a year after these pictures. Uh, those are the mug shots. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Mhm. Well, that clarified that. Mhm. What What time of year did all this did you find them? Um, she was March and she went missing in fall of 1990, but she wasn't found until February 91. So that's why I asked you how long you might have kept kept her. Yeah. She wouldn't have been at my house that long, cuz I had custody of my kids on uh couple weekends a month. Can you remember where you would have taken her? Do you remember where you took her? Did you own any property or garages or somebody else's house or No, I didn't. In the woods or No, I didn't own any property. Because from the time she was taken until the time they found her was a pretty good amount of time and she sound like what three or four months but she was relatively I mean she was really decomposed when we found her. Mhm. So, we're just trying to figure out the location where she might have been because the first one you said you didn't sleep for, but maybe a day if that much, a couple days. And this one here and it was dropped off on the day it was found. It wasn't like somebody walking down the woods and find it. It was on a particular area where you could hardly not see it. And then somebody stopped and picked it up like they were intentionally left. Yes. To be found. Yes. Yeah. item. I'm thinking it was a long highway. Probably man 70. Okay. But I can't place how far of fail was out of St. Louis. I know it was west of St. Louis, but do you remember what was around there? You mean like buildings? Buildings, restaurants, shopping centers. Sure. I don't think it was isolated. Do you remember which vehicle you used that time? Probably the van cuz I don't think I had the pickup truck in in the early 90s. I think I got that in like late 91, early 91 might have been. I mean, I can't remember when I exactly got that. Do you think it would have been at night time? Was it Do you think it would have been at night time or daytime or No, night time. Early morning when there's not a lot of not a lot of traffic out on a highway. Mhm. But there's always traffic on a highway. Do you remember getting that box out? I mean I mean you're a big guy so I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard for you. I'm thinking it might have been it's not a box I made. Okay. It had to be existing something like shipping crate piece of furniture. Would that have been something you might have had in your basement? Yeah, it could have been. Remember what might have been shipped in it? You say because you had a lot of furniture. No, just furniture in a house like bedroom sets, living room sets, kitchen sets, stuff like that. But I don't think it's something that was just laying around. If it had drawers like a dresser. Well, this box was actually around. The dresser was inside the box. Mhm. The dresser. You have a picture of the dresser or possible. And you have to realize that that dresser, she was in that dresser for a long period of time. So the dresser doesn't look probably exactly like you were. Yeah, it looks like dresser front of drawers or something. Mhm. Or drawer fronts. And this whole thing was inside a box. Was inside this. Yeah. It looks like a dresser. Anything come back to you looking at that? Just look like it's wrapped in some kind of paper or cloth or something. Mhm. Yeah. So, you said you remember bits and pieces about her and about this incident. I mean, that vaguely looks like a piece of furniture, but don't look like it's in real good shape. Sure. Like I said, you know, she was in there for a while, so it's not in really good shape. She looked familiar, but I know it's not Pam. Had some facial features similar to hair and stuff. It unfortunate and sad. It's just somebody that uh I picked up on the streets or in a restaurant or something down in South St. Louis. Mhm. Is this your dresser or would you have gotten it from somewhere else? Looks like something I had in the bedroom. Was it part of a a set? You know, like the Yeah, I bought a a bedroom set when I was in undergrad school back in mid to late 70s up in Fyet, Missouri. Um, it I mean it's hard to tell because there's not a lot of detail on it. Sure. Would that have been in the same bedroom as the mattresses would have been? Yeah, cuz the house was only had a one-bedroom house. It was a small house. Okay. Like under 900 square ft. Did you keep the rest of that bedroom set? Uh, in that house? No. I think some of the bedroom set the ex-wife got in a divorce. like it had a king-size headboard and a big dresser and a smaller not much bigger than this. So, she would have taken that bedroom set or the one that this belonged to. I know she got the king-size headboard. Okay. And which ex-wife would would that be? Hm. Mhm. Which ex-wife would that be? Which one? Mhm. Uh the second one. I only had two wives. Okay. So, Karen. Yeah. Somebody took the time to take the the bottom of the drawers out. You know, you got the face, but somebody took the time to take the bottom of the drawers out and then inserted her in there. Okay, that sound that would just be they took all this white stuff off, the guts out of it. Yeah. And then this would be the top of the dresser. Yeah, that definitely looked like a dresser in a in a box, but I don't remember that box. I'm not saying I didn't make it, but I don't remember making it. Do you remember taking the bottoms of those drawers out? Apparently to make room to put her in. Do you remember that or are you just saying somewhat? Yeah. You remember doing that? Yeah. Do you remember where you kept her? H Do you remember where you kept her? No, I sure don't. Cuz Doc was kept for a while in the basement. Not a whole lot. Could you have kept her in the basement and then just decided now it's time to get rid of her? That's possible. How did she die? That's what I was hoping you would tell us cuz she was nothing. Not much left of her. Oh, I sure don't remember. It's something I guess I blocked out. Do you remember bringing her to the house? I don't know if I brought her. I'm not real positive I brought either one or they came up there like with an escort service or something. I'm thinking I picked them up somewhere in South St. Louis. Because wouldn't an escort service come back and check on it after Wouldn't an escort service come back and check on them after a period of time? You would think. I mean, you they wouldn't just drop them off and, you know, from South St. Louis and have or you know Yeah. walk back. I don't think they'd walk back. So, somebody Oh, you think you picked them up off of I know. I I've had a few dates through an escort service, but I think these I picked up I met on the streets or something or in like a White Castle or Steak and Shake or some kind of restaurant. So, the ones you picked up at the escort service, did they come to your house or did you pick them up from the No, they came to the house. Okay. Did you ever frequent any hotels around South St. Louis when you if you would pick somebody up off the street and take them to a hotel or anything like that or would you more than likely bring them back to your house? More than likely bring them back to the house. Okay. When you lived on California, did you ever bring anybody to the house you lived at on California? I was married then. So that wouldn't there would be nobody. Okay. And you lived on Humphrey's too, right? Is that right? Yeah. Would you ever bring anybody to Humphre? No. Karen and I were still married. I don't know how because we got married and we moved into an apartment building on Kiaak in uh California. And then we moved to Humphrey's which was just a block or two south of Tro Park. And then we moved closer to her family on Arsenal. And then we bought the house up in Bell Ridge. Oh, so did she live at the house on Bill Ridge? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What was the reason you got divorced by me asking? Uh, we weren't comp. I didn't I only knew we knew each other like less than a month when we got married. Okay. So, we really didn't know her that well. Well, she didn't know me that I mean for any length of time. Was that hard on you to divorce? Yeah. With kids, but it was a what they call a no fault divorce with like it's just one of the things that happened. Mhm. So, how long did she live at the house on in Bell Ridge? [Music] Couple years probably before we separated cuz I noticed you were doing some construction on the house, right? You were doing some construction on the house. Yeah. So, do you were you rehabbing it after she moved out or how that rebuilding it? It had a faulty wiring in the basement. had a sizable fire. How uh did you lose a lot of stuff in the fire? Yeah, you did. What year was the fire? 91 92. Okay, let's see. The doc died early part of 93. Might have been early 92 I had to fire. And that was because of the wiring. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Was it a total loss? Uh the inside was pretty well gutted. Uh like all your personal belongings and all that. Huh? All your personal belongings, the big majority of them. I mean, I had salvage a lot of stuff and put it in storage while the house was being rebuilt. Would you have had a storage? Would you have had a storage that you might have kept her in for a while? Would you storage room back then? Excuse me. Like I said, this was what early 91, late 90s. Uh, all of them went missing in 1990 and then Sharon Sharon u wasn't found until February 91. Yeah. See, that was so born a year before I had trouble at the house with the fire. Okay. So, I wouldn't had any storage or you would had a storage shed then that was after the fire. You thought maybe this was a crate. You don't recall what you would have Yeah. The outside of it looks like it could have been a crate, but the inside was looks like a piece of furniture. Mhm. You don't remember what came in that crate or where you got it from? No. Or what this stuff is. Cuz this look this is all like white paper and there's some duct tape. Maybe like a drop cloth for painting. Okay. Do you remember anything inside that dresser with Sandra? Anything inside the dresser? Yeah. Did you put anything in there? No. Cuz obviously she's sitting around for a while is going to start to smell. Yeah. Anything to cover up smell? No. Boy, I wish I could remember more right now. Mainly to help me, right? Mhm. I mean, what I can recall and remember right now is I'm good for it, but I don't remember all the details of uh what was going on mentally or physically at the time. It'd be easy to say I did drugs and I don't remember all this, but uh I was I might have smoked a little pot, but I was never into the drug culture. No. What about alcohol? I used to enjoy going out even when I was married. are single and going into a nightclub or a restaurant or a bar and drinking celery with a lime twist. I mean, I didn't have to drink alcohol to feel good. I did enough of that in college. Acquired a taste for scotch. Oh, that was my choice before I quit. Chevvis Glenn Le I mean or Glenn Fetish. Yeah. We do have another one that we'd like to talk about. Mhm. Okay. The third one we talked about a little bit. Um, how do you do keep coming and coming? Well, we told you there's three. So, this is Brenda Puit. Same thing. What's the year that 1994, 9, and 90? Well, she looked like a rough one. shouldn't say that looked like somebody who definitely would work the streets. Mhm. This one looked like she had more class. I mean, she took care of herself. Mhm. Of course, mug shots don't always uh do a person justice. Sure. Yeah. That's at their lowest point. Mhm. Prove it. Prett So I knew of Puit, but he worked uh he worked for the Shriners at Moola Temple on the night crew. I don't think they were related. You remember what his first name was? Do you remember what his first name was? Boy, I sure don't. Okay, so she was found in Marilyn Heights. That's I know. We try to turn it off. It It'll go away. There you go. What? Was it a phone? It's a phone over there. You tried to turn it off earlier and it didn't work. Plug it. But they say if you unplug it, it sets off an alarm. Gee, there for a second I forgot where I was. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. In Maryland Heights. Yeah. So, you said you worked at the Shriners. That's also in Maryland Heights. Is that right? Yeah. And the new Moola Temple moved from uh what was that? Lindle. Yeah. Out to uh the old Parkway Junior High School. They bought it and remodeled [Music] it. So you're kind of familiar with Marilyn Heights then. Yeah, Chuck, my old boss, the one that I got involved with docing all this, lived in Maryland Heights. How long did you know Chuck? See, I was still married. We just bought the home in Bell Ridge. And I met Chuck within months of moving into the house looking for employment. He owned a construction company. We did a lot of remodeling of uh rental center stores. So, how did you meet him? I can't remember who introduced us or where I met him. I don't know if I answered an ad in the paper or went out and bid on a job or maybe I don't really remember how or where or who introduced us. It was uh name of his company slipped my mind right now. So you bought the house in Bell Ridge. Yeah. What year was that? Oh, late 80s. Okay. 87, 88, 89, somewhere around there. Okay. So shortly after you bought the house, you said you met met Chuck. Chuck. So So Brenda, does she look familiar to you? None of them did. I couldn't pick out of a lineup. I mean, okay. No. So, same kind of thing. Long side highway in a container. Okay. The same year Do you know where you might have taken her in Marilyn Heights? Off the highway somewhere. I mean, it wasn't directly on the highway. I think this one was like on the shoulder of Interstate 70. You're talking about Sandra Little, correct? Is that Sandra Little? Yeah, that's Sandra. Yeah, you don't remember what was around that area. malls, stores, car lots, car dealerships, or that would have been on a the outer road, not right on the highway. Oh, that the businesses would have been on the outer road. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember near what exit? Oh, I sure don't. I sure don't. And were you by yourself on that one? Yeah. Yeah. I don't I would have remembered if I had an accomplice and I don't think I did. I'm always sure I did. Hypothetically, if you did, who would be who would you have been close enough to that would do this to assist you in any way? Boy, that's a toughy guy sitting here now. And prior to I I didn't think I was, what's the word? capable of doing this. I can't think of any other people that I had as friends or associates or work with that be involved doing this. Would you have told anybody about this? No. This ain't anything that I would brag about. You know, there's always conversations going in where you're at right now. Anybody in here that you talked to that you would have told that you're good for these? No. Did you tell anybody about our visit last time? Yeah. Yeah. Could just like now. Well, last time, let's see, they called me out and the officer escorted me over here directly. This morning, they uh paged me. I went out and they said, "Uh, Officer Hail said, "You want a custody complex?" I said, "Okay." So, I went back and got dressed. I see you're spit sharing boots. Yeah. Some things you uh It's just hard to I wish I had I wish I had done that. Wow. And believe it or not, that's liquid polish. They do have two inmates that have regular shoe polish for doing the officers. Oh, that's liquid. Yeah. And now they don't sell it in the canteen because of shortages and stuff that I try to take care of them, but uh there's no more polish. They're looking good. And I sure ain't going to buy the paste wax cuz that's uh get a whole bunch of trouble for that. I bet. And like you know from the core, uh first thing you do when you open kiwi is you light it. So you rub it in a lot of spit in it and it's it's a security risk in a place like this similar to Napal. Yeah. So true. Yep. Anyway, so would you would you share who you told that we came to visit you last time? Uh I think maybe by Sy. And it wasn't nothing in detail because they they asked because they know some of my family's not doing real good and I've had phone calls before down here as yeah they're trying to tie me into something that happened a cold case file but nothing even close to being detailed about it. Right. Yeah. There's nothing that I would brag about. Did your cellmate give you any advice? Did your cellmate give you any advice if we decide to come back? I did. They told me who he was and I guess he was on a TV show. H Did you know your soulmate was on a TV show? There's been a couple of them in the past. Yeah. Like I just think you read my mind. You all know the name Charlie Armit. Yeah. Well, I watched the show because I was curious. I watched the show he was on. Yeah. And there after a while, you learn not to judge people down here. You just accept them for who they are at that moment. But when you think about their crimes, like there's people in my wing that uh Emry F. [Music] He killed his mother and father and two brothers in South St. Louis. Armit. So like Armatrot said he went to some like I guess they Armit said he went to some like counseling they have here at the present or something. Yeah. And he said I I think he killed his grandmother. Yeah. With a baseball bat. All right. Cuz there was an old joke before I got down here. They were out there playing softball and uh something about somebody yelled at him that, "Hey Trout, do you know how to use a baseball bat properly?" And when I heard I didn't realize what they were talking about, I was like, "Whoa." Okay. That was low. Yeah. All over drugs or so he says or whatever. She wouldn't give money, right? She wouldn't give money for drugs. I think this that's what the TV show led on legendly. This ain't going to be on TV, is it? I have no idea. Not that I don't do TVs. Yeah, I don't either. I hide from cameras. I do too. I hide from cameras. I'm not the type of person that you want. Yeah, I don't I watch some crime drama like NCIS and stuff like that, but as far as cold case files and all that, you have no interest in that, huh? It's not my ball of wax or cup of tea. Mhm. See if we can't um get more information on this. The one that was in Maryland. I wish I could. Do you remember what you put her in? You read my mind. I'm just going to ask you how she was found. It was a trash can. Okay. Uh, I'm thinking a plastic trash can. Okay. What else you remember? Not that much. Does she have clothes on? Dad, I I don't remember right now. I I can't recall she was closed or not or partially closed. Did you secure the trash can at all? Mhm. Did you secure the trash can at all? Secured how did you I mean so she wouldn't fall out. I would imagine as long as the trash can stayed upright, she wouldn't fall out. I don't remember securing it though. Do you remember where he took her? where you dropped her off. I'm thinking it was somewhere off of page and 270. [Music] Some apartment complex. What time of day was that? Probably at night. Okay. Do you remember what vehicle you used? Probably the van. No, probably was a van cuz I didn't I don't I know I didn't have the pickup truck then. Okay. cuz I don't think I got the pickup truck till well after my uh house had that fire. Yeah, it was a van. Do you remember how long you kept her? Not long. I don't remember keeping any of them more than a day or two. Okay. You don't remember where you would have kept them? Maybe not at the house at East Edgar, but you might have kept them somewhere else. No. You mean double moving? No. Yeah, cuz she was, like we said, she was pretty decomposed before she was found on the highway. So, she evidently had to be somewhere. And when you talk about time to decompose, you're looking at a week, a month, six months. Wow. Yeah. More like months. A month. Or more than obviously she went missing in 1990 and was found in February 91. So I sure don't. And same same for her. She wasn't as bad as Sandra, but she I'm almost sure they were all taken from my house and left somewhere within a day of it of their demise. Any idea where that would have been? Any idea where that would have been? Where what would have been? where the after you had them for a day in your house and after their demise, where would they have gone? Because these were relatively found right after the morning of Yeah. I can't They had to be left at my house cuz I don't I didn't have a storage locker or anything. Maybe they were left outside the house somewhere. Did you have a big backyard at the house? No. No, at one time before we bought the house, it was but the inner belt went through. It wasn't that big of a backyard. Now, you had a dog. Is that right? I've had dogs all my life. Yeah. What kind of dog did you have during that time? In the 90, 1990. Let's see. When we first got married, Karen had uh pure white I think it had some wolf and shepherd in it and Dap passed away and we got a German Shepherd. What was that dog's name? Duke Dap. No, Daff was a a white dog. Oh boy. I don't remember off hand. Chief. Chief. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I'm only sure it was Chief. And you said that's when you were married to Karen. You had Chief. Mhm. Okay. Yeah, we got Who got the dog in the divorce? I did. Okay. She got the cat and I got the dog. Lucky you. I'd take the German Shepherd, too. Mhm. I would take the German Shepherd, too. I don't hate cats, but I don't like them. Mhm. Me neither. So, how long did Chief live with you? Oh, till he I had to put him down after the problem with the house burning because my mom kept them while the house was being rebuilt. I'm thinking he got he wasn't feeling real well and I took him to a vet down in Kirkwood and he had a sizable tumor that was no hope for. So he was euthanized. Shortly after the fire. H shortly after the fire. Oh, I would say probably within six to eight months. Okay. And then when the house was over half rebuilt, uh, I got a Siberian husky, some kind of husky. I think it's Siberian. Got him through a friend who was a police officer. What was his name? H What was that dog's name? Nemo. Okay. Is that the one that Doc was supposed to or um Did you have a friend come over and let the dog out or something? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Ron some other. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. But you had the shepherd during this these period of times. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. So I was just thinking if they were out in the backyard that dog wouldn't leave those leave them alone. Probably the house the front yard and backyard were fenced in but not completely closed off. So anytime the dogs went out, they were on a leash with a collar so they wouldn't have sniffed out. The front yard was mainly fenced off except for part of a section on one side where if the family was out, the dog would stay around. But as far as letting him out by himself Mhm. I had to chase him one time. Mhm. And he caught himself. Ran into a neighbor's yard that had a fence. He went in the gate. Okay. Close the gate. Yeah. Makes him easier to corral. Mhm. Ah. Yeah. Most dogs Superman would play hell chasing. They can run. Yeah. Mhm. So, do you remember I know you said it's you can't really remember why or how you took their life, but that goes for Brenda. How did she die? Same as Robin. Strangled. Mhm. Damn. Definitely some bad memories coming up. Are you reliving that? H Are you reliving it? Trying to buts and pieces. What are the What are the bits and pieces you're remembering about, Brenda? I mean, I don't recall where I met her or how. Okay. How about after taking her life? Just off of Paige Avenue, off of 270, some kind of apartment complex. Do you remember putting her in the trash can? H Do you remember putting her in the trash can? Yeah. Do you remember if she had any clothes on? I can't recall if she was fully clothed or partially clothed. that detail. I can't I don't and I don't know if we talked about it with Robin, but I know we said a little bit whether she had clothes on or not. Do you remember any of your clothes being in there? Or you used your clothes for any reason? No. If I had any of my clothes in there, then it must have been subconsciously asking for help or something or to be caught. Well, back then that's probably the last thing on your mind was DNA, you know. Yeah. Unfortunately, this day and age, that's how it's all coming about. Yeah. I don't remember any clothes of mine with any of them. I'm not saying it wasn't, but I I don't remember it. Okay. Um, there was a stocking cap that was in with Sandra. Do you remember? It had a business name on it. Do you remember any stocking caps you had back then or any companies you worked for? No, cuz I was never really in the hats. Still not. Not in the winter time. No, I always had a full head of hair and maybe working outdoors in construction, some kind of hat, but I don't remember anything you would have kept in that dresser. Clothes. But if the drawer bottoms and everything were missing, would have been anything in there to hold them. Mhm. Was there clothes in there? There was a second cap. Yeah. I don't That's strange. I would have put a put anything in there. Where did you work before you got into construction? Oh, let's see. When we first got married, I worked for Clayton Courier, making bank runs out of St. Louis all the way down to uh Iron and then places around in St. Louis. When I first came back from grad school, I taught school for a while. Had a tractor trailer. Where'd you teach school? Yubert Wheeler and uh State School 70 in Kirkwood. U Wheelers on uh Hampton and 44. He has like three or four square pods for uh gifted kids, gifted people, severely handicapped. Did you like that job? Yeah. Yeah. What made you stop working there? Friend and I bought a tractor trailer or the tractor, not the trailer. We leased out to uh some company over in Illinois, can't remember the name of it, they owned all the trailers and independent truckers delivered their trailers. Then where'd you work after that? H mainly let's see when we lived on California was for Clayton Courier and I know at one point when we lived on Humphre I worked for myself minor construction rehab uh contracted out a lot of jobs. Bunch of guys had a uh investment company that they they were slum lards, a lot of section 8 housing, you know. We moved up north and I went to work for Chuck on and off and I worked for uh Husman refrigeration. I was married then still. What's the old saying? A jack of all trades, a master of none. Do you ever work for an insurance company? No. An insurance company? No. That's like too confining an office job. I like the freedom of working outdoors or not the same isolated area every day of the week. Did you know anybody that worked for an insurance company? Probably. Oh, maybe my ex-wife's cousin. Let's see. I think Robert worked for an insurance company. Do you remember what it was called? H Do you remember what it was called? No, I sure don't. And that was Karen's cousin. Yeah. Robert. Yeah. Were you good friends with him? H Were you good friends with him? Just family. They weren't uh they were gay. Robert and Jean. Uh I accepted them only as people that had a choice to live their own life but uh Mhm. didn't really socialize a lot with them as a couple. More like family gatherings. Did you ever have them over at the house or did your wife ever have them over? I'm sure they came over or we go over to their house. Do they enter into this? No. Okay. No. Okay. Talking of things, trying to loosen me up more and get my mind working. Exactly. Yeah. It's not bringing any more detail to any of this. No, sometimes things come to you just by talking it out. You know, instant recall things you never expect. You had said that if she was in a trash can, if it was sitting upright that she wouldn't it wouldn't fall over or anything like that. But if you put her in a van and she has a tendency to fall over, would there have been any kind of a lid you put on that or I'm sure there was a lid. Uh it was a trash can. Yeah. Undoubtly a lid to it. Did you ever have anybody over at the house like you were worried about them finding out about any of this? That's why this the one that you said was badly decomposed. Mhm. I can't remember having her at my house that long. That's why I thought mainly a day or two. Yeah. So, in the last five weeks that you said you've been thinking about these, you know, anything else come to mind that we haven't asked you about? No, ma'am. No. Is it safe to say that we've presented three? Okay. Three cases. Is there a possibility there's more? No. You know, cuz when this comes to light, there's going to be people probably calling me wanting to know. Yeah. Their 10 minutes of fame getting involved and stuff if they had any or they want to clear their case. Yep. And they're going to ask, you know, for your DNA to compare to their DNA. So, if there is anything that we can clear up for you to avoid. No. more visitors. No, I can't. Excuse me. You need anything? You need anything? No. You still good on water? H. You still good on water there? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something something tells me that when I get back in population in the privacy of myself, I should take notes or start jogging things down which might help. remember some some more details of all this, but uh can I give you my business card? H can I give you my business card? You can. You did last time, but I didn't take it. Okay, I'll take it this time cuz uh my email address and my phone number and everything's on there. So, and now that we have our iPads, uh we can make phone calls. anywhere in the housing unit. We don't have really from your cell. You can make a phone call. Oh, yeah. We can sit out in the in the wing. Uh so like any time of the night? No, they shut the phones off at count time between 10 and I think 7 in the morning they're shut off. Okay. And also during count times where they they lock us down for lunchtime at like4 to 11. They come around and count everybody at 11. Count clears. We're out by 11:30. 11:20. Mhm. Sometimes count don't clear, but uh majority of the daytime. Yeah. We we can take the iPads anywhere in the camp except for medical. Take them out to the yard. There are people who have like very many songs on their iPads. I mean like three and 4 thousand songs. Yeah. How do they get the songs through the company secures? Uh do they have to pay for that? Oh yeah. Okay. It it varies from a buck and a half for a single to Okay. Five or six bucks for an album. Now uh the only mail we get is legal mail, magazines and newspapers who cannot keep any envelopes. If I get legal mail it's always open in front of a case worker to check it for counterband. Okay. They keep the envelopes. When I get letters or cards, they all get sent to Florida. They get scanned and put on the tablet. Cut down on contraband. Oh, we just had a So you don't get to keep it in your cell like a picture of somebody or a card from somebody. We used to. They haven't done anything. I think it's grandfathered in because we have photo albums and pictures. Uhhuh. But now everything's on a tablet. Interesting. It we've had a couple of a whole bunch of fentanyl overdoses. That's what um the investigator was saying or how it's getting in. I guess there's ways. Well, you're kind of intelligent. Stop and think. Mhm. There's like all kinds of different ways. Right off the bat, people think, "Oh, they're coming in with visits through inmates." It could be an unexpected delivery driver bringing canteen items down from a warehouse. Mhm. That somebody put a stash in. It could be staff. Yeah, I was thinking that guards. They have caught staff members bringing certain things in in the past like when a tobacco was taboo. Yeah, they bring in a a pack of cigarettes or something. You know, there's What would the guards get in exchange for that? Why would they do that? Would it hurt them? Probably money. The protection. Yeah, probably. Uh, stop and think again. When this camp first opened up, it was in rural Missouri. Unemployment was really high. Prison guards don't make a lot of money. Correct. And go to somebody and offer them $1,000 to take in a matchbook of something. People are greedy. Yeah. You know what would you all do if you didn't have a job, no income, and had a family to feed? Would you take some illegal money? Would you transport something? I was desperate enough, thinking it might be a one-time deal, hoping it's a one-time deal, and find out you got hooked because everything's on film, and then they blackmail you. Now, is it worth going to prison over? Right. No. But you don't, Case in point, don't always look down the road at the end product. Mhm. Let me ask you a question. Back when these all happened, there was a whole lot of press. I mean, it was in every newspaper. Did you follow any of those? Do you recall? Did you I I probably read articles in his newspaper, but I didn't go out of my way searching for it. It's like I subscribed to the post paper even down here for a long time, but uh it wasn't getting a paper or looking at a paper for a specific item unless it was coupons. Would it would this have been something you would have cut out any articles on to keep to kind of keep track of where the cops? A scrapbook? No, not a scrapbook, but just kind of find out the progress of the police. No. So they wouldn't be come knocking on your door. Were you worried about that? Oh, I'm sure subconsciously in the back of my mind there's always uh thoughts of getting caught. Did you do things differently to avoid getting caught? Change my routine? No. No. Or it's not like people go out and rob a bank and then go out and buy a brand new Cadillac and drive around town. No, you didn't change anything. No. My my habits, my lifestyle on the most part was all the same. I mean, so you never thought one day the police are going to come and Oh, I'm knocking on my door to talk to me. There was that thought in the mind and said maybe they won't. You know, these all happened relatively in a close time frame and all of a sudden they stopped. Could that have been because you came to prison in 93? No, I didn't I didn't get arrested on this charge until uh early 93. When did they stop? Well, the last one that we know of the body was found in 91. February 91. Yeah. I don't know. If you were to think back prior to anything happening, why would all of a sudden because you said you picked up many quite a few young ladies from now? Well, not as far as picking up to go out and paying. Yeah. But dating around, I mean, it's going through my mind for many years of what transpired to kick off this behavior. That's basically and likewise, what happened to stop it? Correct. It wasn't going to prison because if this was like 91, that's two years before I got this case with Doc. Yeah. I mean, what opened the faucet? What shut the faucet? Correct. Right now, I for my own sake, I hope I can come up with some kind of answer, but And if I've, like I said, if I've dated for different reasons, uh, relationships, friendships, uh, camaraderie, why would I revert to picking up a prostitute for a one night stand? I mean, pick them up, pay them, go about your business. What caused these three not to uh continue on with their life? Did you ever pick up a prostitute and have any trouble overpayment where either you didn't pay them or you took the money back when they weren't looking? No, because that happens a lot. I've actually this is probably the third case similar to this that I've worked and that seems to be a lot of the reason that somebody would actually take their money back from them and the fight would start. Yeah. I mean, I've never been poor. I've never been extremely wealthy. I've always had money. back then and $30 $35, you know, which one wasn't a lot of money, right? Do you recall of and and again, it's been a long time ago. Do you recall if any of these young ladies put up a big fight where you might have gotten hurt or you might have gotten scratched or you might have they picked up something to try to hit you or something to provoke right this no might be easier on me if I did right you might it might come back. You think anything's possible, but I can't. You know, when I remember things, it's in the middle of the night. Wake up. Excuse me a second. 3:00 in the morning and remember what now? I said things come to me in the middle of the night. I wake up at 3:00 in the morning and I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I forgot to do that." Or something clicks. Wait, you get older? You probably know. Yeah. 3:00. If I sleep till 3:00, it's a long night. And I go to bed at 10:30, 11:00. Yeah. Oh, there's there's things here that It doesn't get any better either. No. It's like sitting there watching TV and going to fix a cup of coffee. Put your stinger in the cup and walk out of the cell and you remember the stinger's in the cup when you smell the plastic burning. Your stinger is what heats it. Yeah. Yeah. An immers an immersible heater. Is that something they they sell here? I mean, that's something you're allowed to have. Oh, yeah. At one time we had crockpots. I still got mine. They're grandfathered in. You'd You'd be surprised what some of the conveniences we were allowed. Really? Oh, yeah. I've seen they had a show on TV where people in your situation would make a whole meal just out of what they got out of the Oh, yeah. using your crockpot, the pizzas they make. And I know you all probably won't do it, but have them take you on a tour of the place like of the canteen, the items we can buy. That would be if there's not a supply crisis, but saltine crackers, snack crackers, potted meats, uh salami, sausages, pizzas, soda, soups, uh and you're allowed to heat that up. Oh, yeah. We got microwaves in in five and six house. We have microwaves in the wing. Damn, I didn't know that. But you can only use them at certain times, right? Mhm. Are you allowed to use it any time of the day or? Yeah. Uh five house is the honor house and unless there's a reason to be locked down. We can go in and out of ourselves into the wing. Got jobs. Uh I don't. I'm disabled they say, but uh it's a different lifestyle. But we don't do without everything. You know, soda, all kinds of soda, all kind of food. So, how do you get your money? Does somebody help you out? If you don't have a job, family. Family helps you out. Yeah. Yeah. I did. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Have you talked to any of your family about any of this that we came to visit you? No. This is a No, this is nothing to brag about, talk about. This is something for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that you try to suppress this kind of stuff that pretend it never happened. Yeah. Accepting it that it did, but uh No, it's nothing I talk about in here. And this is something you accept that happened, right? Yeah, I guess it's called a reality check. Even Even with Doc, the case I'm here on, people don't talk a lot about why they're here. There's an old saying, everybody in prison have one or two things in common. We either plead guilty or got found guilty. After that, we're all different individuals. Yeah. And even in these the counseling thing like Armat went too. I did for a period there was different mental health classes. Okay. on uh dealing with incarceration, with stress, uh loss of family, things like that, but nothing that would overly talk about this. Well, I understand you're I was just watching the TV show that Armit was in and he led to believe that it was one of these counseling sessions where he finally admitted to what he did. So, I didn't know if you had that type of thing here where Oh, yeah. There's there's training. You talk about why you're in here type thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm the type of individual is why talk about it when I know why I'm here? I mean, some of the things at my trial I don't totally agree with, but uh I got convicted of it and I was involved in it to a certain degree. What do you mean by that? H what do you mean by that if you don't mind me asking? Well, you you said you read the case with Doc. Yes. Do not answer this. This ain't a question. But in your mind, was there any degree of doubt because of where the murder weapon was found? Where Doc's car was found? with my alibi where I was when Doc was killed. There was no 100% evidence that I pulled the trigger of any pistol. I may have had knowledge prior to and after, and I'm not saying I did or didn't. Right. Right. But there was no smoking gun. The man was found in my house. That doesn't mean I killed him. Did you take the stand on that? Couldn't. My I wanted to, but my attorney advised against it. Uh for a bunch of reasons. I a lot of priors, too. Yeah. I'd done time in Kansas. Okay. And like, you know, sometimes one little thing on It's kind of like on uh and I experienced this and I've seen and heard it on other cases. Either the defense or prosecutor says something at trial, the other side objects and the judge tells the jury disregarded. To me, that's like and that's chiseled in in concrete. Now, you know, now you really concentrate on this. Yeah. Well, I know they want this to be known. It's already said you can't take it back, right? Uh There were things at the trial the jury wanted to see. See, how can I explain this? If you read a book of an incident, you see a movie based on the incident or you actually see it. There's three different stories versions, you know. I wasn't there when the Titanic sank. I've read books. I've seen movies. That doesn't make it all true. The jury in a case with Doc wanted to actually hold and see certain bits of evidence. They were denied. So they base their findings, opinions on other things and fact, you know. Mhm. But that's really getting off a beaten path, isn't it? Yeah, I was going to say, but here we are, right? Yeah. I don't know about you all, but I ain't going nowhere. or rather I ain't going outside the perimeter. Yeah. So, what else can you tell us about these cases that we can go back and let these folks know right now? Look, I pretty much divulge what I can recall right now. Other things might come to mind in time. I think I gave up quite a bit though. I mean, you all knew I did it from the evidence. Now you're convinced. Well, I mean, we can't deny the physical evidence. We knew that even before we came and talked to you. But and there there's always I mean I'm not doing it, but there's always a chance if this was to go to trial because of technicalities, due process. You know, I'm not me, but I'm sure there may be one or two innocent people in prison just like there's guilty people still on the street. You know, uh there's people like Armit. He originally, I believe, got the death penalty [Music] through technicalities or something. It got overturned. He got life without. Uh there's other cases in here. There, this is really off to the beaten path, but years ago there were two brothers. They were twins. They called them a twin. I worked as a cook with one of them. And they had so much family brotherly love. The actual perpetrator of the murder would not confess. They both took the fall. They both got life without. Okay. One knew nothing about it. The other one did the crime, but they stuck together because they didn't want to tell on each other. It may not make sense to y'all, but uh people cover things up for various reasons. Uh an accomplice doesn't necessarily mean they were actually there at the time of the crime. Prior knowledge, an associate. Sure. You know, I go walk the track with somebody and I have absolutely no drugs or contraband army. the other person does. We can get bust and I get just as much time. You know, not saying it is or isn't, but with Doc, the man was found in my house. At the least, I was an accomplice. You know, we had one member of the jury months after I was convicted. Uh Bob Adler talked to some of the juries and as one lady and it is not really an appealable point, but she admitted that she had some doubt whether it's reasonable or not in her mind and was torn in the jury chambers. She would rather send an innocent man to prison than a guilty man on the street. Here I sit. I accept it. I can't change. I can't fault her for why she thought or her decision making. That's as an individual. You You can't appeal somebody's thought. Facts, misrepresentation, due process. IO uh just like me saying about some of the things in that case and in this doesn't make it true or doesn't make it false. A lot of things are true. There were things in my case that I'm here on that I'll take to my grave. Is there anything that we touched on that's not true? I mean, I know you can't remember a lot of stuff. Yes. Uh, it's helping to recall some of the stuff with you mentioning different things, but uh, but you're not making anything up as to what you remember to this point. Oh, you mean all this is real? Don't patronize me. Yeah. Don't patronize or pacify. The facts are the facts. I mean, just because I do not remember every little infinite detail doesn't mean I'm innocent or guilty. I mean, I remember enough of it that yeah, I'm I'm good for it. And I'm sure you all taking my word on it. Kind of obvious. I had I'm talking to y'all. It's like some of these people when they they'll know rumor scuttlebutt something going on. Why'd you talk to them? It's like why the hell you worried about what I do with my time in my life? You know, I'm surprised they would even ask you, you know, if they don't ask you what you're in here for that they would even care. But they do ask, they some don't ask. Uh some through newspapers, TVs like Armit. Mhm. Uh Jeff Ferguson was on TV. That was my case. I interviewed him. Jeff Ferguson. Yeah, he's here. No, he's executed. Yeah. I was in a county jail when he came back for a retrial. If I remember right, he got a reversal on the wrong usage of a word R. That's true. The jury instruction, there was error in jury instructions. It I'm not sure which way it should have been, but instead of O R, it was a R E. So he got a reversal and went back. Wow. And I think his second trial, the jury was out 45 minutes. They were out less the second time than they were the first time. Yeah. Because I testified at both trials. Yeah. Because all the facts were there. Actually, I went to his execution. Yeah. His u I met his daughters and u they were babies. They were babies when this happened. Y and I met his daughter. Actually, they did uh a TV program. What you see? Um Mhm. God on God got in it was um got on Death Row Possi is that what it was they did a TV program and the lady who did that interviewed me at length and they never used it because I wouldn't agree that uh you know to a lot of different things. I said you're not putting words in my mouth. This is what happened. You want the facts then put me on TV. If you don't want the facts, leave me out. They left me out. Can't like what's going on nowadays with politics? Oh my gosh. Yes. Oh my. Do you have to follow I mean I watch news 24/7. Do you follow that? I mean are you allowed to do that? What's that? Do you watch TV? Oh yeah. We got our own little TV. It's 13 inch flat screen. That's got to drive you crazy watching the politics and There's no easy solution to what's going on in the world right now. Did Nancy Pelosi do the right thing or the wrong thing? That's a personal feeling. Yeah. Is Biden a weak president or a strong president? Mann ain't got a backbone. And once you slip like that back in Afghanistan, it all started for me. The way I see it, an honorable withdrawal. There's no such. He tuck tucked his tail and ran. I can't get into a lot of that. I don't disagree with that. And now I hear tell last night that AOC is going to run for president. Good lord, this country shot to hell. Nothing against the feminine side of society, but AOC, how did she even get elected? And Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We could be here for days talking about that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. So, I guess we have to do a game plan. You have to do a what? We have to we're going to go back with this information, give it to our prosecutors, and we're not sure what's going to happen from there. I mean, you've got the letters. That's a definite. And uh again, my boss talked to the director of Department of Corrections and the warden here and your situation is going to remain exactly the same. Yeah. Um because this is the maximum maximum security. I mean, the other level five camps, but you know, they know me here. Yeah, I know them. You know, and they know you don't cause any problems here. I think that's what it all boils down to. Except for them damn how you are here, huh? Except for them damn jelly beans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, are you able to have you emailed people with your iPad? Is it fairly easy? I don't I don't use my iPad for that. It's like I check the email every day for things that administration put on it. Mhm. But and a telephone is more convenient, more private in a cell. Uh but I have no songs, no pictures, no games, no nothing on my tablet because the money I get is to support me, not somebody else. you know, and uh so if you wanted if you wanted to reach out to me, a phone call would be the best instead of email. Yeah. Okay. Will your phone accept it? A lot of times my won't I have to Well, I take that back. I got somebody calling me now that I just have to So the voicemail will pick up. Yes. Yes. I don't have to be there to answer it. No, you have to be It has to be live. If he calls you, it has to be because you got to accept the call, right? So, it won't it won't go. My voicemail won't pick up. All it'll pick up is just a phone call from an institution, right? And uh I know calling family sometimes a phone call won't go through cuz third party calls and I pay for the phone call down here. I mean, it's a nickel a minute, but There's no collect. I don't make collect calls, you know. But you could always write a letter, right, and mail it to me. Yep. Okay. And I don't think it would be legal mail, so the mail room would read it, which is no big thing. And Yeah. Yeah. Weber. So, I obviously work daytime hours. Yeah. I won't be in town next week, but other than that, I should be there. Yeah. Okay. You think of anything else? Not of hand, but obviously if you think of something, I mean, because like I said, they're going to ask us as soon as we get back how much information we have. So, a confession. What more do they I mean we're just looking for you know specifics on what you remember and how their lives were taken and what happened after their lives were taken. I'm sure I'll think of other things or you'll have more questions but isn't this enough to close the case basically for me? I mean obviously with all the physical evidence and then what we've talked about here today. Yeah. Yes. Now, is this going to aid? Which one had the son? She she has a son. Is this going to help him get closure? I hope. Yeah. So do I. I hope. Is there anything you would like me to tell him? Yeah, a whole bunch. But I don't know if he'd want to hear it. is not going to putting myself in his shoes for a moment. There's nothing said or done now or in the future that'll bring his mother back. Not a thing. Right. maybe knowing his mother's [Music] murder been caught and is paying the price. Hopefully, it'll help him. What about remorse? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, as far as he's concerned, I don't know if any of this is really going to give him closure. I mean, no matter what, his mother is deceased. I'm very sorry for what happened. That's why I was saying earlier, I not to share it. Well, I probably would, but I would like to step outside the arena for a second. and come to a tight ass alibi or excuse or reason. What prompted me to do this? Where was my mindset at the time? I'd like to get closure on it. Looking back at, you know, what these ladies did for a living, I mean, did you think of them differently because of what they did? I don't think so. No, cuz I had just like Karen's cousin. I mean, Robert and Jean live together. Uh, I didn't condemn or condone them. That's what they did behind closed doors is their own business. Mhm. I'm not to judge them. Apparently, they supplied a need that I momentarily needed, and so do a lot of other people, a prostitute, a high class hooker, an escort. Uh, I just hope someday I can figure out why there be a lot of soulsearching. There have been over the last 30 some odd years. I bet. Yeah. Did you think about these at all over the last 30 years? What do you think? Yes. I'm not I I'm not a complete animal. I have a conscience. I have I have remorse. I have guilt. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to y'all if I didn't. It'd be like clamming up. Mhm. What good would it do? Go to a trial and have all this brought up and refreshed in a lot of people's [Music] minds. Yeah. the people directly involved. It's over. I'm owning up to it. Her son can have some kind of peace of mind knowing the perpetrator sitting out there. That's a big thing. That's a big thing. Yeah. As far as the why, where, the reason behind it, like I said, I'm not sure right now. I can't clarify in my outline what prompted me to do this. On the surface, there's a lot of reasons a person could come with this kind of behavior. But why did it start when it did, and why did it end when it did? It didn't go on for a long period of time. Apparently, thinking back where my mind was mentally and physically at the this time period, I can't honestly say I know where I was. Something set something off. Thank God it didn't last very long. For what it's worth, I'm sorry. It means a lot. I don't sorry don't make it right. I didn't say it made it right, but it means something. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate you saying that. I app I appreciate you saying that. That's the words I wanted to hear. and not the total opposite, you know, like you said, you know, just you're not the monster. And I hope this don't sound wrong, but maybe I can do some easier time now. It's over. I don't have to worry about you all coming down. You've been here twice. You'll be back again. Yeah. Look, we you cleared the air. Yeah, you know, got a load off my chest, G. Now I go back and think of what I'm going to have for supper tonight. Chicken patties. No. Uh, what is Thursday night? Nah, I think something like a chef salad. Uh, a lettuce salad. Is it the same thing every week? Like the same day? Okay. They change by the season. We're in the the spring mode right now and it's a repetition menu every six weeks. Uh lettuce salad right now we're having twice a week and we'll go a week or two it but it always recycles like you know what day of the week you're having pancakes or French toast sticks or chicken patties but it's not guaranteed because sometimes they run out of things. uh like on the street, like going to the canteen. We order, we have to have our order in by 7 o'clock Monday morning, they fill the order and we pick it up on Tuesday. But just because and a lot of times when they're out of something, you key it in on the kiosk, it'll tell you out of stock for whatever reason. You order something else. But there's fundraising items like banquet chicken that's not a reserved item. First come, first serve. Well, I might order it today, but they may fill your order before mine and you get the last box. Oh, okay. Now, I planned a meal out of chicken fajitas. Ain't got no chicken in it. And there's also reserved items that uh for one reason or the other you might order but you don't get discount on inventory whatever you know but you can pretty well plan ahead on a lot of things. Is the food fairly decent for prison? You mean in mainline the child? Uh ain't nobody dying from it. It's edible. Yeah. And after couple of years, your taste buds readjust to stuff. Uh, not supposed to, but you can buy little packs of mayonnaise and ranch dressing in the canteen and you're not supposed to take it to the chow hall. Uh, but somehow a little pack of mayonnaise finds it way up there for chicken patty is another thing. Add something to it, you know. Mhm. It's all edible. Not every restaurant's a fivestar restaurant for sure. But you still lead at White Castle, don't you? Yeah. All right, Gary. Anything else you want to add? Yeah, a whole bunch, but I think most of it's already been said. Could you write me a letter? Hm. Could you write me a letter? Uh, I'll try. I'll try. May take a day or two. Oh, take your time. Yeah. And like I said, I'll be out of town next week, so I will get it. Sounds foolish right now, but tell all three victims family that uh there's remorse. I I can't go back and change it. I can only accept what it is. cuz I'm sure maybe not siblings or they all had family somewhere at some time might help them out. So if I have uh other detectives call me, are you open to visitors or would you prefer not? Yeah. I mean, he ain't got nothing to hide anymore. It's on the table. Okay. Why would other people are going to be curious? I'm I hope not. This is not a made for movie story or book or whatever. But I'm sure there's some investigative reporters that would love to talk to me. I'll refer them to you all. That'd be good. Okay. That' be good. Okay. Cuz we know how to talk to people. Oh, not like me. [Music] Yeah. You can deny a lot. stick with it. But what good does it do? I could lie to you all. I can't lie to myself. That's what we were counting on. I might have lied to myself over the past, but fully knowing the truth would come out. you know. Mhm. And it's not bragging or boasting or anything along those lines. This is definitely one of the saddest days in my life, but also one of the best. I've lived with for this long. Now I don't have to run inside me anymore from it because the truth is out here. Mhm. No more pretending. I don't blink. Is there? Not on my end. No. Okay. All right. Now, these are mine. Yep. You can have them. I got to I don't want these people. These people, not the staff. Thank you. Thank you. You too. Thanks a lot to Thanks for watching the package killer. Confessions are as chilling as they are revealing, offering a rare glimpse into the twisted mind of a serial killer. If you found this as unsettling and fascinating as we did, don't miss part two where the story goes even deeper. Remember to like, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you don't miss what comes next. 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